" .. established "social norms and mores" via now long-standing traditions of ethics and morals’ ... are just the preferences of people in the past that happen to have been around for a long time now. That does not give them any real authority over anyone’s life." <<
Posted by JP, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 9:26:25 AM

They are more than preferences. They are expectation, with authority through social currency. Which makes this ....

>> "So, yes, atheists are completely free from all so-called moral restraints." << Posted by JP, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 9:26:25 AM

... a bald assertion without authority, and an inmoral one.

To many people think their type of religion is the only worthwhile one.
That is the problem with religion.
Besides believing in fairy tales, there is no tolerance.
Atheists or non religious, believe the world is round.
Churches dictate to people how to live their lives, and violate the rules of humanity, themselves.

JP,

" .... the problem for the atheist is that they have no means for establishing what being good is (beyond their own personal preferences). One atheist may say that one behaviour is good while another may say that it is not. Who can say who is right and on what basis?"

Yes, indeed. And some of us spend our lives, on and off, sifting the good from the bad, trying to nut out what to do in different situations, and all without the 'guidance' of a book of magic and miracles. I'm sure that there are atheists who are total b@stards, psychotics, criminals, just as there are amongst any set of people, believers or not, but searching for the best path is what some of us keep trying to do.

The search for purpose, and the concern to do as little harm as possible, and to leave the world in a better state than it was wneh one entered it - these are pretty constant issues for many atheists. I'm sure they are for many religionists too, but we don't have - or seek - the assurance of some invented fairy godfather/mother, or the confidence that there is someone on our shoulder. Whatever there is 'there', we make it, we construct our own sense of morality and are constantly questioning it and trying to improve it. As, I'm sure, many religionists are doing too.

I guess some of us are trying to do the best we can in the absence of any supernatural force. No, it's not particularly easy being human and more or less alone in the universe, each of us for our limited time on Earth.

Cheers,

Joe

JP,

"In an atheistic universe there is no morality, just the preference of individuals and groups of individuals."

Seems a bit odd make the point that "groups of individuals" comprise what we refer to as "society". Different societies engage in both similar 'and' differing ideas of acceptable conduct, morals, ethics - religious belief.

Are you saying that human "morality' is entirely dependent on the invocation of "God"?

579, enough of the jokes already!

I think many of the astute readers have by now figured out that you're really a religious person with a sense of humour, on a mission to make atheism look bad. The game's up now.

Let JP etc have their serious conversation- I am finding it illuminating.

Lexi loaned me this david f…

:)

Though I don't twit myself, I think #athiestcon was an unfortunate choice, pass it on to an organiser if you would.

It is because I know you are 'a true Scotsman' who appreciates the distinctions between individual atheism/religiosity and organised or formal religion/atheism that I can agree with your comments and to also extend a wish for 'more power to your elbow' (as my Cornish Bible Christian forebears may have said) as you congress in Melbourne.

And at your age! I am humbled and deflated.

But now back to Trav, JP and acceptance...