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The Forum > Article Comments > Do schools Educate? > Comments

Do schools Educate? : Comments

By Ted Trainer, published 23/3/2012

Schools and universities serve consumer-capitalist society very effectively… and therefore don't and can't do much Educating.

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The author would appear to have not been inside a school for some time. Though diverse in nature and not perfect institutions by any means there has been much progress over the past decades. We have the example of school gardens (often shared with local communities)and many other in-school initiatives being used to raise awareness in young Australians of the need for a sustainable future. The situation is nowhere as bleak as Dr Trainer suggests.
Posted by Ian D, Friday, 23 March 2012 9:23:34 AM
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Hi Ted,

“Do schools and universities educate”? NO, of course not.

The following cut from a response to Julie’s article.

In a comprehensive series of essays called “The Corruption of the Curriculum” written during 2007 by authors such as Frank Furedi, Shirley Laws, Michele Ledda, Chris McGovern, Simon Patterson, Alex Standish, Robert Whelan and David Perks. The conclusion of these authors, all of whom are experienced teachers, is that the curriculum is being drained of intellectual content in favor of promoting political issues such racism, the environment and gender.

When we stop socializing topics we can and will return to education rather than indoctrination.

Good luck getting past the academics!
Posted by spindoc, Friday, 23 March 2012 9:39:00 AM
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Ah, Ted Trainer, you sing a sweet tune, in fact I feel like I've been plagiarised, your arguments so closely mirror my own. It's nice to know there are a few critical thinkers out there.
You say the chances that we'll change our ways are "negligable", whereas I'm afraid I think they're zero, mainly because it's now impossible for single nations to opt out of what is a global farm. Speaking of farms, I bet Orwell never imagined his fable would go global, or that the pigs would end up being capitalists rather than a petty communist oligarchy. On the other hand, Orwell's disillusionment with socialism didn't detract from his life-long hatred of capitalism. The whole planet is now just too intertwined and mutually dependent, geopolitically as well as economically, and the only hope of sustainable human societies will come after the fall.
As for education, so true so true, that it's all designed to plug the new workers and drones into the system, wherein all to often, as Wilde would say, their education has taught them the price of everything and the value of nothing. The more disturbing factor though in the educational "process" is that in recent decades the "demand" for "qualifications" for everything, however menial, has been fostered by big business according to it's new strategy of credentialling workers and so patronising their need for recognition and co-opting their credulous dedication. An influential book as been written on this cynical "education programme", called "The New Spirit of Capitalism". The Protestant ethic just inhibited the kind of rampant consumerism the system now increasingly demands.
I have six kids and a large part of their education consists in my disabusing them of the programming they get at school. But swimming upstream is exhausting and ultimately futile and my kids too are inevitably fired with the same needs for recognition, and thus the competitive and ambitious drives our selfish society fosters, wherein it's not enough to succeed, others also have to fail so they can be despised.
Posted by Squeers, Friday, 23 March 2012 9:52:39 AM
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Its true most of what is now called "education" has been reduced to a propaganda industry that is purposed only to produce the next generation of social and political participants in a programmed life dictated by governments, corporations, and economic interests.Such "education" is, in fact merely about producing a compliant and even zombified work force.

But them again that was all that mass "education" was always purposed to do - produce a minimally literate and numerate supply of office and factory workers.

In my opinion one of the best writers on this topic is Henry Giroux especially via his books On Critical Pedagogy, and Education & The Crisis of Value. Although these books are mostly about the situation in the USA and perhaps Canada too, they are very useful in considering the state of the world altogether especially as there are now so many young people or teenagers with quite literally no prospects for anything better.
Posted by Daffy Duck, Friday, 23 March 2012 10:10:37 AM
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Squeers, you put it so well - ditto Daffy.

Speaking as a parent who has chosen not to send their child to school for his formative education, it is interesting to alter one's conscious idea of "learning". My son is not constantly assessed - sometimes I tick his work, but not often. If he has a problem with something, we sort it out then and there. Most of his learning is acquired by having the freedom to choose his own interests. We find that if he is motivated in such a way he is far more inclined to investigate. He learns in the process of following his passions and interests, although I've had to train myself to allow things to unfold instead of forcing them.
Having said that, he is still part of society, he watches TV and reads news and current events so he still gets the general societal view of things - which, like Squeers says, need parental reason to help him obtain a balanced questioning view.

Still, a young person should be extended the good grace to grow and learn without a constant barrage of assessment and comparison. I'm hoping my son grows into an adult who is confident in his own abilities and not constantly comparing himself to others for his sense of self-worth.
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 23 March 2012 10:28:05 AM
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Ted & his mates must be longing for Hitlers Germany. There the education system was totally aimed at indoctrination. Here all we get is Teds reproduction of his indoctrination by someone years ago. Well Ted, our kids don't need it.

Back off mate, the last things our kids need is some ratbag lefty taking control of education, in order to reproduce more of their ilk.

We will give our kids all the guidance they need, your job is to supply the knowledge to give them ability to function in a complex technical society. They have the same ability as you to decide their response to life's trials. They don't need any training in what passes for ethics in the left.

Meanwhile get your nose out of our kids character, we already have too many well meaning twits trying to indoctrinate our kids into lefty ideals. We can only afford so many members in the useless chattering class if our civilisation is to survive.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 23 March 2012 11:08:04 AM
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The situation re the purpose of "education" was summed up in the 1962/3 song by Malvina Reynolds titled Little Boxes.
Posted by Daffy Duck, Friday, 23 March 2012 12:07:57 PM
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Squeers:

...That’s all a little “gloomy” old bean! Your view indicates to me a lack of attachment to the present. It all becomes well and good to criticise the education system as inapplicable to life outside the confines of work, (fostered by the ethic of competition); but when has education ever been in a state otherwise, pray-tell?

...Where I agree with you Squeers, is in your de-briefing episodes: But de-briefing which may effectively be re-indoctrinating the same children (being saved), with adult hang-ups, is also equally unfair to the child; and counter-intuitive, I would suggest.

...And to go to extremes, as is the admission of POIROT, is simply elitist. What Poirot! is your child of such a superior importance, that mixing in the common world of mass education is to be deemed a contaminating hazard to be avoided; and why? Surely isolating children from the real world, as you casually admitted to doing, is not a positive influence for your child at all, irrespective of the added peace they may have enjoyed.

...What right has a child to that peace? Surely, the rough and tumble of a community school yard, as a major component of the rounded education of a child, is a superior choice, irrespective of curriculum taught in the community school.
Posted by diver dan, Friday, 23 March 2012 12:56:49 PM
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diver dan,

On the contrary, what's elitist about allowing my son the opportunity for an education outside of school. He's the one who is experiencing "the real world" not segregated from it inside an institution 30 odd hours a week.

You're not capable of thinking outside the square, just as most people are trained to think. My son enjoys the rough and tumble of boyhood in the company of his friends, but he's not pressed into a one-size-fits-all generic "education" system - good for him!
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 23 March 2012 1:10:17 PM
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Poirot, on this issue as you've described, you have my full support and agreement. Your son will indeed grow into an adult confident in his own abilities.

It worked with our family and son. Good luck and stick to your guns. At the very least your son will be one of the lucky few to escape the detrimental institutional brainwashing called education today. He will have the capacity to be a free and individual thinker - something which brings derision, rejection and scorn within the current education system, where non-compliance is the ultimate sin.
Posted by voxUnius, Friday, 23 March 2012 1:48:57 PM
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diver dan,

I’m with Squeers, Daffy, Poirot, voxUnius and Hasbeen on this.

We seem to confuse information with knowledge, intelligence with education and then try to bury this confusion under ideological indoctrination. This “education system” that best represents our toxic society is no place for young and vulnerable minds. Best to do whatever you can for as long as you can to prepare them.

Australian of the Year winner 2003, Professor Fiona Stanley describes our “toxic society”.

“In Australia, almost 30% of school children between the ages of 8 to 14 are on prescribed hard drugs such as Prozac, Ritalin and other “Speed” derivatives”!

“Nearly 20 percent of Australian teenagers now have mental health problems. Nearly a quarter of all families now rely on welfare. Suicides among 15-19 year old males have quadrupled since the 1970s. Obesity has increased in teenagers from around 10 percent in 1985 to nearly 25 percent today. A quarter of all children aged four and five are now overweight for their height. The number of people aged 12 to 18 who are homeless on any given night has increased dramatically to 26,000 last year. Documented increases are evidenced in substance abuse, child abuse, binge drinking, teenage pregnancy, eating disorders, juvenile crime, juvenile diabetes, low-birth weight babies, Neuro developmental complications, asthma, serious behavioral problems and autism. Twelve year old children are having mental health problems, depression, anxiety, hyperactivity, schizophrenia, right through to violent behavior towards teachers”.

“Eleven year olds are presenting to NSW Government with problems not encountered before. Some of them are so violent they are unable to be fostered, educated or controlled”.

More disturbing still is the data from the WA Education Department. “……they have seen a trebling almost every five years of children with quite significant behavioral problems; they have to be taken out of the classroom. These children are severely disruptive, very angry”. This report is referring to FIVE YEAR OLDS!!

Why would any parent rush to expose kids to this before they are capable of “synthesizing” the reality of our toxic society without the attendant problems described by Professor Stanley?
Posted by spindoc, Friday, 23 March 2012 3:19:03 PM
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Ted began his essay with reference to the work of Illich, Reimer and Friere. I would also add Paul Goodman via his book Growing Up Absurd.

I remember that B A Santamaria used to fulminate against what Illich had to say and was calling for.

Of course the right-wing had their own extremely toxic school which they used with murderous effect to terminate anyone who dared to try and exercise what Illich and Freire were teaching - teaching and empowering people to control their own lives in cooperation with others.

It was called the "school" of the America's: see http://www.soaw.org

And of course the historical extension of the SOA world-view was the Chicago School of economics and "culture" as inspired by Milton Friedman (the Chicago boyz) They went on to use much of the world as an applied laboratory for their theories. The actions and the results of which are described in The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein.
Posted by Daffy Duck, Friday, 23 March 2012 3:51:51 PM
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…Periot. Many of spindoc’s homeless vagrants experience the same world outside the conventional school system too. How does your child differ, pray tell? And again, Spindoc describes the world outside of the schoolyard admirable: What is so essential that a child must experience those negative social rigors as a pre-requisite for a rounded education, as opposed to an institutional alternative?

… Many institutional (public) schools are of excellent quality; but a child’s education can be easily tailored to his/her personality and ability outside the public school system if desired, (privately and with money of course). Many non-elitists do just that!
Posted by diver dan, Friday, 23 March 2012 7:36:08 PM
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diver dan,

What negative social rigors?

My boy just learns and lives devoid of the covert actualities factored into mass education. So what? He's never worn a uniform, but he knows the meaning of cooperation. He doesn't judge himself by how well the kid sitting next to him is doing. He gets on with adults as well as he does with children, yet understands the respect owed to his elders. He's confident to approach adults and people in authority in shops and libraries, etc...it's those sort of things that ground a person's character.
He goes ahead of his own volition and researches those things that grab his interest.He doesn't have to be told what to pursue and how to pursue it...why do you think these things are wrong?

You are the one that can't see past the construct. When in history have young people being grouped together with age peers for the majority of their productive day?

I can't say we've run into any vagrants lately in our daily activities, but if we did we'd probably find that they're the flotsam washed up from a dysfunctional education system.
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 23 March 2012 8:18:54 PM
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This article is complete rubbish. Our education system is full of left wing ideology and left wing people. It is so ingrained that people around university automatically assume that you are left wing. I was taught history and politics by communists, music by feminists, and employed by unionists. Students are taught to be reflexively cynical toward authority and suspicious of anything even remotely hinting at right wing. As a music teacher I see it as a solemn responsibility to instil some sense of pride in the achievements of Western Civillisation in my students who these days receive a barrage of propaganda about the evils of our civillisation. The incredible irony is that the left has simultaneously infected our education system with its own toxic ideology while selling the lie that it is dominated by the right wing. Quite frankly I see Ted and his supporters as the enemy, as they have made it explicitly clear they want to destroy civillisation.
Posted by dozer, Friday, 23 March 2012 10:22:58 PM
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diver dan,

The Professor Stanley report covers about 20 issues, mostly related to education, which I might point out is the thread topic.

Somehow, in order to evade the educational issues you “dan dived” into the topic of the homeless?

Could you please get back to the matter at hand and address this?

“In Australia, almost 30% of school children between the ages of 8 to 14 are on prescribed hard drugs such as Prozac, Ritalin and other “Speed” derivatives”!

Or perhaps you could address this?

More disturbing still is the data from the WA Education Department. “……they have seen a trebling almost every five years of children with quite significant behavioral problems; they have to be taken out of the classroom. These children are severely disruptive, very angry”. This report is referring to FIVE YEAR OLDS!!

Otherwise we might conclude that you are engaging in evasive maneuvers?
Posted by spindoc, Saturday, 24 March 2012 8:54:58 AM
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When you turn a nut anti-clockwise (left) you undo the thread that's holding it all together.
Instead of fastening every bolt, the education system unscrewed it all & now the bottom's fallen out.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 24 March 2012 9:10:05 AM
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Spindoc,

There are any number of societal issues affecting very small children and there ability to endure institutionalised schooling.

Many children (especially boys) display behaviours which come under the umbrella of autism or ADHD - some formally diagnosed, some not. At the high-functioning end of the spectrum these children have difficulty with concentration (especially on subjects that don't interest them), changes of routine, regulating their interpersonal relations and moderating their noise/behaviour. These children are regularly medication to enable them to "sit down and shut up" in a school environment. Many of them are also mercilessly targeted by their peers. Many also have difficulty with "sensory" issues that make learning in a rigid institutionalised setting almost impossible. They often react violently from sheer desperation. That is when their parents are encouraged to medicate them. These medications usually have side-effects such as weight loss and sleep problems.

My son was diagnosed with "high-functioning" autistism. He is at the very mild end of the spectrum and if you met him you wouldn't notice anything particularly unusual except you might note that he is more likely to be formally polite and a little naive for his age. This obviously was a factor in our decision to homeschool him, although I was philosophically in favour of that course of action as I already had an adult child who was schooled and had noted that most of her "meaningful learning" had emanated not from her school studies, but from her privately sought passions.

The upshot is that my son doesn't have the same sort of rigid pressure inflicted on him - he is respected and in turn understands a certain level of conduct is expected from him in return. He was never bullied in kindergarten or pre-school as he is overtly friendly but also more naive and gullible than his peers. He's an intelligent young man and I simply decided to give him the best shot at balanced development that I could.
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 24 March 2012 9:26:32 AM
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Poirot,
one of my kids has slight behavioural issues and tendencies to be hypersensitive, rather preoccupied, and to over-react. Such slight anomalies do seem to attract negative responses and I often think what wretched schooling such kids received in the system years ago. Put under any sort of pressure this boy of mine just seizes-up intellectually in a kind of panic. He's the only one of my kids I've ever really lost my temper with and smacked harshly, before I'd come to understand him, but no degree of chastising had or has any positive effect; indeed it only makes his fits of incomprehension worse. I thus always do my best to maintain an even temper with him, but this behaviour, which he really can't help, is extremely provoking and it's not easy, so I'm glad at least corporal-punishment's no more and that bullying is much less tolerated.
Nevertheless, no doubt for the same reason this boy's more likely to have negative experiences at school than his siblings, and cruelly, thanks to that hypersensitivity, he feels rejection or taunts much more. It's not a serious problem but I keep an extra-close eye and ear out for what goes on.
I think if homeschooling's handled well it has great advantages. It's not only the assembly-line nature of school I object to, but all the wasted time that goes on there, the isolation from nature and practical/tactile learning, and the enormous peer-pressure that absolutely configures kids' desires, priorities and behaviour, especially teenagers. From what I see, with four kids in the system so far, institutional education is almost entirely negative in terms of any educational/vocational ideal. It's merely another aspect of the commodification and denaturing of childhood. I really think the school-system should be semi or wholly dismantled or radically overhauled.
Posted by Squeers, Saturday, 24 March 2012 10:16:09 AM
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Squeers, Poirot,

Absolutely spot on, there are seemingly immeasurable social complexities in the modern society we have created. It is impossible to escape the fact that these complexities cause us all stress at some level. The Professor Stanley research was in response to the potential causal effects of societal pressures.

Our rule based societies have been discussed on OLO at length but in addition to these variables we have to add the further permutations of the nine personality types, seven different learning styles, levels of emotional intelligence, social intelligence, socio-economics, culture and religion just to mention a few.

You appear to have reached a remarkable level of understanding of your own domain, parenting can do that every time. One of our few defenses we have to protect ourselves and our loved ones from rampant “categorization” and “one fits all” solutions, is our own self knowledge.

“True wisdom comes to each of us when we realize how little we understand about life, ourselves, and the world around us”.

Socrates

Regards.
Posted by spindoc, Saturday, 24 March 2012 10:40:03 AM
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Squeers, spindoc,

That's the thing - "slight behavioural issues" tend to morph into significant behavioural issues in a rigid generic setting. British austism expert, Lorna Wing, once wrote that high-functioning children often had the most difficult time at school (and in society at large) because their behaviours were "so close to normal" that any "odd" reactions weren't tolerated, least of all understood. We now have distinct classifications in order to try and deal with and accommodate these kids. A "label" is required by parents as some sort of mitigation for the unyielding nature of mass education. An attempt to try and provide some sort of understanding and attention for their child in an institutional setting where they have little say in procedure, and often are downright intimidated by the school edifice. My son's formal diagnosis makes almost no difference at all in our situation. As it has turned out, I need not have bothered. He's really just n ordinary kid with a few behavioural quirks which aren't compounded by attending school. The main thing I value from the whole exercise is an increased understanding of him and other children like him.
Squeers will understand with his son the complexities that go hand in hand with a sensitive child who needs space and peace in which to function at his best.
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 24 March 2012 11:18:15 AM
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diver dan,
I agree education's never been ideal en masse, but then I'm not nostalgically harking back to anything. Institutional education is dedicated to institutionalism, and as long as it's turning out dysfunctional robots--human beings are passively and symptomatically rebelling against this commodified life--nothing's going to change. Things must and will change, one way or the other.
My question then to Ted and Spindoc and Daffy and Poirot (it's a regular who's who!), and myself (and all those who are capable of free thought), is what the hell do we do about it?
We all talk talk talk and nothing changes; unfortunately we're too few in numbers to turn the tide : (
Posted by Squeers, Saturday, 24 March 2012 4:32:33 PM
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capable of free thought), is what the hell do we do about it?
Squeers,
Well, for a start don't vote Labor.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 24 March 2012 5:33:29 PM
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Squeers,

Our system of mass education is integral to mass consumerism.

Ivan Illich's book is titled "Deschooling Society" - the title says it all.

Here's an excerpt from his introductory page:

"Many students, especially those who are poor, intuitively know what the schools do for them. They school them to confuse process and substance. Once these become blurred, a new logic is assumed: the more treatment there is, the better are the results; or, escalation leads to success. The pupil is thereby 'schooled' to confuse teaching with learning, grade advancement with education, a diploma with competence, and fluency with the ability to say something new. His imagination is 'schooled' to accept service in the place of value. Medical treatment is mistaken for health care, social work for the improvement of community life, police protection for safety, military poise for national security, the rat race for productive work. Health, learning, dignity, independence and creative endeavour are defined as little more than the performance of the institutions which claim to serve those ends, and their improvement is made to depend on allocating more resources to the management of hospitals, schools and other agencies in question....the institutionalisation of values leads inevitably to physical pollution, social polarisation and psychological impotence: three dimensions in a process of global degradation and modernised misery. I will explain how his process of degradation is accelerated when non-material needs are transformed into demands for commodities; when health. education, personal mobility, welfare or psychological healing are defined as the result of services or 'treatments'..."

What can we do?
As I know very well, it is psychologically difficult to act outside of herd mentality. If we are to collectively educate our children, we have to start from an entirely different base. but in order achieve that, people first have to recognise a fault with the present system - most people can't get beyond their nine-to-five malaise, let alone question its validity.
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 24 March 2012 6:40:19 PM
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What can we do?
Poirot,
National Service.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 25 March 2012 7:54:17 AM
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Well there you go, individual. Let's solve the problem of institutionalised society by creating another institution consisting of 'National Service'. Does it occur to you that organic communities where members are 'connected' and personally reliant on each other, and, therefore, indebted for their succor on mutual good will, aid and cooperation, provide community assistance as a matter of course.

The reason why National Service appeals to some is that they are implicitly aware of what we have lost, yet think that formulating a solution based chiefly on the unsoundness of the present one is the way to go.
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 25 March 2012 8:23:19 AM
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Poirot,
I am against institutionalisation when the teaching is mindless compliance. I'm for an institution which enlightens young people re the dangers of the former. A non-military National Service will provide this enlightenment. If you're uncomfortable with National Service call Community Service or whatever. I'd personally prefer the term Citizen Responsibility Service.
Those of you who think that we will simply continue to provide for you in return for diminishing living standards & nothing to look forward to except watching you lot enjoying the pension we provide, need to start thinking about the country as a whole not just your own little world.
The lefties argue about bailouts for various industries and, to a certain extent rightly so. But, they also need to argue the fact that the huge non-productive Public Service shouldn't get bailed out either. If Tony Abbott had the sense to remove the recent Parliamentarian pay rise the unemployment situation would improve vastly.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 25 March 2012 10:27:31 AM
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...Children are expected to attend six hours a day out of 24 at school: One quarter of a day; five days a week. Too much you say! Too little I say! Children in school will isolate themselves as always into self-protective units, which are not discouraged. Boisterous (read the bullying and violent type), will be controlled as usual. Learning is both academic and social.

...Successful co-existence is a major aim, and physical enterprise; team playing through sport, is the consequential and necessary overall aim of the modern school.

...Maintaining childish naivety into adulthood by withdrawing a child exhibiting inhibitions towards crowds, only hinders that child into adulthood. Encouraging a child to hide from the real world of pain suffering and confrontation is (as stated), counter-intuitive.

...Encouraging a child to “wimp-it-out” by hiding behind a parent with over protective tendencies, is a negative influence on any child and should be discouraged!
Posted by diver dan, Sunday, 25 March 2012 10:29:26 AM
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Believe it or not, there are still some schools around that carry the flame of the Illich (et al) legacy. And, by the way, I must add to the author's list the amazing A.S. Neill, who started Summerhill in the UK during the 20s, and which, the last I checked, is still going strong despite an attempt by the House of Lords to close it down a few years ago. (Also, another footnote is noted educator and poet, Padraig Pearse, who started such a school near Dublin in the early 1900s, before he was executed for his role in the Easter Uprising in 1916.)

In Brisbane where I live, there are about four of these schools in the metropolitan area, at least one on the Gold Coast, and another I know of in Warwick. One of these, the one my children went to, was established in 1967.

They struggle against the tide - government interference (subtly tied to funding), low enrolments, community prejudice, distance factors, and zilch budgets left over for decent resources, building programs and promotion. However, they struggle on due to a combination of parent/teacher passion and a resounding endorsement by the kids who attend them. My children had to be at death's door before they would ever 'consent' to stay at home, and getting them out of the school at the end of the day was major uphill battle - they just didn't want to leave.
Posted by Killarney, Sunday, 25 March 2012 10:38:22 AM
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diver dan,

Children attend school for the majority of their "productive" day for the majority of days in a week, and weeks in a year.

Now where do think it's more likely that a child would retain childish naivete? Would that be out in the community mixing with people of all ages or segregated with age-peers...hmmmm, that's a difficult one.

Your attitude doesn't phase me at all. My son is the most confident person I know. Part of that is due to his intrinsic nature, and the other portion is because he hasn't been taught to overly judge his worth according to the feats of others. He attends activities (outside school hours) with other children where we are not present. This term he's been involved in a theatrical class (because he's quite demonstrative) where I informed the teacher he was homeschooled and that perhaps she might need to keep a lid on his enthusiasm. She seemed genuinely surprised, not only at his level of confidence, but also his general maturity, ie - she wouldn't have picked that he has an autism diagnosis. In any case, 'wimpy' he is not.

Once again, diver dan, "school' is 'not' the 'real world', which is why so many teenagers struggle to acclimatise back into it following the cessation of school life.
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 25 March 2012 10:57:01 AM
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My son is the most confident person I know.
Poirot,
That's good to hear. What does he do ? What's his goal ? I know some highly confident youngsters such as those who stole all my gear & some who are actually pulling their weight by either staying for a profession or a trade.
The thieving ones had far more priviledged schooling yet turned out wrong. I know of one who did about $80,000 damage to some premises & as punishment he was given an apprenticeship to 'get him on the right track'. He's back to his old ways & the good kids couldn't get an apprenticeship despite education. That kind of nonsense has to stop soon.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 25 March 2012 12:00:27 PM
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individual,

What is your point?

"What does he do? What is his goal?"

He's ten years old.....he's just growing and learning at the moment.

One thing, though. It's my honest wish that he never develops the sort of attitude that you regularly display on this forum. As far as I'm concerned, attitudes like yours and diver dan's are exactly the kinds of mindsets that weld ordinary people to institutionalised life - all you do is attack and disparage those who seek a better way.

Killarney,

Here's an example of someone who tried to make a positive difference to a school in a challenged neighbourhood in London in the 60's Risinghill School. The education authorities closed it down.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Duane
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 25 March 2012 12:28:33 PM
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Thanks for that link, Poirot. I had vaguely heard of Risinghill. Unfortunately, intolerant education authorities and local councils can be the biggest enemies of community/alternative schools, as well as the struggle to make the general education community aware that they even exist.

Another internationally renowned alternative school is Sudbury in the UK.

Ah, what the heck! I don't know if this is against OLO rules, but here is a general list of some of the community-alternative schools in Australia - or at least the east coast. Also called 'independent' and 'democratic' schools, because they have no religious or ideological affiliation, being entirely run by and sometimes owned by (via cooperatives) the school community - kids, staff, parents and alumni. Most of them have websites and are easily googled.

Victoria
Preshil - Kew (est.1931), Alia College, Village School, Melbourne Community School, Collingwood College, Fitzroy Community School, Lynall Hall, Berengarra, Candlebark School

NSW
Currambena School, Kinma School

QLD
Brisbane Independent School, Pine Community School (Brisbane), Blackhall Range Independent School - Maleny, Booroobin - Maleny, School of Total Education - Warwick

And of course, the many Rudolf Steiner and Montessori schools around Australia, although they have a lot less independence and hands-on democracy than the community schools.

(Trivia for the day: Anne Frank attended a Montessori school in Amsterdam before, and for a while after, WWII began.)
Posted by Killarney, Sunday, 25 March 2012 4:17:26 PM
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wish that he never develops the sort of attitude that you regularly display
Poirot,
Has it ever occurred to you that you lot are the cause ? if your young feller is as confident etc as you say then, by hanging around the likes of you will turn him into one of us, that is the curse of caring. We wouldn't need to constantly dew attention to your selfishness if you were less selfish. I say selfish because you don't appear to care about those who don't fare as well as you because of the policies you support.
What is my point ? I have sufficient evidence to realise I'd be wasting my time to explain the benefits of caring & responsibility to you.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 25 March 2012 6:31:06 PM
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individual,

That's rather a grotesque little commentary coming from the likes of someone who doesn't know me.

This is the last time I'll be addressing you on this forum as I find your false assumptions and petty labelling puerile and offensive. Are you a grown man?

The only thing you have "sufficient evidence" of is your own malicious penchant for distortion and invective.
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 25 March 2012 7:35:26 PM
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Poirot:

...I think you are taking a ridiculous stand on this issue. The direction this thread has taken us all at present, is in discussing the social benefits or otherwise, for children of the conventional school. We have, all of us, converged into that particular aspect of the debate, which is quite legitimate under the heading of the article “Do Schools Educate”? Teaching social integration is a huge and important aspect of the learning experience in the school of “mass” education.

...I remain a critic of people who extract their children from school under the guise of a mental illness. I do agree there are times in some childrens lives, where to extract them from school for short periods of illness, for example, are very legitimate. But you do not seem to qualify on that point, since in your rounded criticism of the conventional school system, private or public, you appear not to discriminate with your dissatisfaction.

...Interestingly, the condition you specify for your son, autism; is a controversial modern-day phenomena diagnosis. (Add to it, Asperger’s, same category). One of its highlights is an inability to concentrate on subjects the patient deems uninteresting. For Christ sake POIROT, that is what schools are about, expanding learning and exercising childrens ability to concentrate. It is you Poirot, exhibiting the dreadful attitude here.

...Unless your child was expelled from his school for uncontrollable behaviour, you have a social obligation to force your child to conform to a school system which includes as a priority, social integration. You do your son no favours, now or into the future, allowing him to control you in the way he obviously has, by giving in to him, and allowing him access to the path of a “cushy” and unhindered bludge; and now totally disconnecting him from the society of “normal” children at school!

...So, what do you hope to achieve by that obviously flawed and misguided decision, to extract him from the influence of children in the “real” world of the common school?
Posted by diver dan, Sunday, 25 March 2012 9:28:29 PM
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Do you know any home-schooled children, diver dan?

Because I've had a lot to do with alternative education, I've met dozens of families who home-school their children. And I know dozens of adults who were home-schooled as children. Trust me, they are 100% normal in every way. Added to that, they have a strong sense of their own self-worth because they have received their education in a relaxed, comfortable environment (their own home), from teachers with a 100% vested interest in their personal future (their own parents). They get plenty of social interaction through their hobbies and interests, their extended family networks, and playing with neighbourhood children - to name a few.

And what kind of social integration do schools really teach? How often throughout life do we have to sit in a room day in day out with a group of 30 other people with whom we have nothing in common except that we were all born in the same year? Life is not like that.

And how long have schools - in the form of mass education - been around anyway? Less than 150 years. The vast majority of children throughout history have been 'home' schooled.
Posted by Killarney, Monday, 26 March 2012 8:05:25 AM
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diver dan,

Aspergers/high-functioning autism are referred to as behavioural/sensory conditions - not 'mental' illnesses. Aspergers is practically the same as high-functioning autism except it doesn't require a communication deficit component as part of the diagnosis - ie, my son had a significant speech delay (although he was reading fluently well before he turned five).

Let's get a few things straight.

1. I would have home educated him regardless of whether or not he's considered autistic.

2.His autistic tendencies are barely noticeable because he's not constantly harassed and provoked.

3.He socialises regularly with neighbourhood children, children of friends and those he meets at activities outside of school hours.

4.One of the defining aspects of Aspergers and autistic behaviour in general is a 'superior level of concentration' on subjects of interest. My son could concentrate, retain and impart information, for Australia on many subjects of interest to him. that's why Aspergers chidren are often referred to as 'litle professors'. (it's possible to cover all the relevant disciplines by utilising his own specific interests - his strengths)

5. As for the social obligation to 'force people to conform'. I invite you to pop on to any autism forum and witness the devastation and grief regularly reported by parents of these children in the school system. Reread spindoc's quotes from Fiona Stanley.

You obviously consider our system of mass education fitting for your so-called 'normal children'. Well I say it's not good enough for them. They deserve better than to be standardised and treated like factory fodder - something the diver dans of the world ignorantly promote.

One more thing. As a homeschooling parent,I liaise 'directly' with the local office of our state's education department. The attitude from the the staff there has been nothing but respectful and helpful - the complete opposite of the animosity you have displayed while expressing your views.

Thanks Killarney, a balanced view.
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 26 March 2012 8:54:16 AM
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Do you have any educational qualifications, Poirot?

I don't about you but when my car breaks down, I get a qualified mechanic to fix it. An accountant does my taxes. I can cook, but not as well as a chef. I visit my GP when I'm sick... and if I had kids I would want them to be educated by somebody with specialist training in education: a teacher. Isn't it a little bit arrogant to presume you can do a better job than a committed, experienced and highly skilled professional just because your son has special needs? You do realise that there are teachers who specialise in teaching special needs children and do a fantastic job of it?

Cheers,

Tony
Posted by Tony Lavis, Monday, 26 March 2012 10:02:18 AM
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Poirot / Killarney:

...I could debate this issue until the cows return to the bails, but won’t. I go further though, and offer another view of mine, namely: “ The problem with children is their parents”. You two are more evidence to reinforce that view. Toughen up; offer the same support to your own community school you selfishly apply to your personal misguided ends, and get on board!

This subject is one Tony Abbott should investigate after he rolls Gillard and Brown at the next election. Taxpayers dollars should not accompany the home schooling branch of education, outside of the need under a strict criteria, such as cases of children living in remote isolated areas of Australia, where such a regime is totally necessary.

It should NOT apply to lazy social escapees excusing themselves under the guise that their oversensitive children are being picked-off at school.
Posted by diver dan, Monday, 26 March 2012 10:21:16 AM
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A very good article, thank you Ted Trainer!

spindoc, Ted Trainer asked the question "Do School Educate?" The gist of his article was not "Do school's and universities educate?"

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=13412#231659

Hasbeen, you lost me with "Ted & his mates must be longing for Hitlers Germany." Perhaps you just don't comprehend the gist of the article.

Dozer, http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=13412#231708

Havebeen exchanging notes with Hasbeen?

'individual' - you obviously can't help yourself.

Diver, without you I couldn't thank Squeers, Daffy, Killarney - and Poirot especially ... very poignant!
Posted by bonmot, Monday, 26 March 2012 10:24:04 AM
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bonmot, you make a very good case for your Mum to have kept the Stork and sent you back?

Your really are a RALT.
Posted by spindoc, Monday, 26 March 2012 3:51:50 PM
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Bonmot, you weren't home schooled were you, or is it just a natural lack of comprehension?

Poirot, Killarney, I can see more than a few reasons for home schooling, if you have the necessary time, ability, & patience. I think I would lack the latter, but had to do quite a bit of home coaching of 2 of my kids, & a few of their friends & neighbours, in math & Physics, when the school would not, [or perhaps could not] do anything about getting rid of a couple of incompetents.

Unfortunately in this competitive world I would be extremely unlikely to hire anyone from such a sheltered background.

One of my main complaints is this ridiculous sheltering kids from stress they go on with today. In fact I'm sure it is sheltering teachers from having their poor performance highlighted.

In todays world, apart from the bureaucracy, & academia, it's a tough competitive place. Sheltering kids just doesn't prepare them for making a go of it out there.

I want to see a return to fully competitive externally set & marked exams, so the kids are toughened up a bit, & I can judge from their results, if they are suitable to employ. If they can't take the minor stress of school & exams, they are not going to be much use in a bussy company.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 26 March 2012 4:47:46 PM
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Hasbeen,

I really have no desire to argue further with anyone about this issue. I've never encountered the sort of vehement invective dished out from diver and individual amongst my own friends and relatives (or anyone else, for that matter), so I've been quite taken aback...anyhooo, 'sheltered'. If you mean he is sheltered from institutional learning, then I can't argue with that. However, that's where his sheltering ends. You people seem to think that he walks around under my skirts. We have a robust homeschooling community around these parts, we've gone on excursions to farms and forests, we've bush-walked after informative talks, made notes - gone on boats, to dairies, museums, etc. There are heaps of things to do in a community everyday - things that require him to ask questions and interact with 'people'...how is that sheltered? I can still see him bantering with the MC at last year's Christmas Festival in our city - in front of over three hundred people. He wasn't phased at all - if that's sheltered, then I'm a monkey's auntie.

Tony Lavis,

If you're asking whether I have expertise in the following: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=13279&page=0#229602 - the answer is no I don't have those kind of qualifications. But I do know how to provide the appropriate environment and stimulation to assist my son in his quest.

bonmot,

Thank you : )
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 26 March 2012 6:38:56 PM
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TEACHERS SHOULD STICK TO TEACHING, NOT INDOCTRINATING!

If 'EDUCATING' means indoctrinating my children, then I don't want my kids educated!

If this author's socialism/feminimism/greenieism/human-rights-ism... is meant to be good... then I want my children to remain ingnorant savages!

Ignorant savages that know right from wrong, that know good from bad and want to work to make the world better!

I want to teach MY children what is right and wrong... not have some state-funded evil teaching profession tell them black is white and up is down.

TEACHERS SHOULD STICK TO TEACHING, NOT INDOCTRINATING!
Posted by partTimeParent, Monday, 26 March 2012 8:12:40 PM
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>>If you're asking whether I have expertise in the following: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=13279&page=0#229602<<

Your link was TLDR (too long, didn't read) so its point was lost on me.

I'm asking you whether you have expertise that even really clever people have to spend 4+ years at university and and a truckload of time in vocational learning to fully master. If you do: how did you magically come to have this expertise without putting in the hard yards? Was it just beamed into your head by one of those secret government satellites usually used to read minds? Did you go on some sort of mystical vision quest where one of your ancestors imparted the wisdom to you? Or do you just naturally know better than everybody else?

Are you the modern renaissance woman? Can you cook better than Blumenthal, drive better than Schumacher, write better than Rowling and theorise better than Hawking? Or is it possible that your perceived abilities are greater than your actual abilities? Maybe you not only don't know everything - maybe there are some people out there who know a lot more than you do within their own area of expertise. I would ask you to keep an open mind about this possibility, unpalatable though it may be.

>>the answer is no I don't have those kind of qualifications.<<

Then maybe you should get them. Or maybe you don't think you need them. Maybe you think a mother's love and special understanding of her child is an appropriate substitute for the rigorous training which teachers undergo. Maybe you are right. But I'm not convinced that you've given due consideration to the possibility that you may be wrong.

TBC
Posted by Tony Lavis, Monday, 26 March 2012 10:30:54 PM
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>>But I do know how to provide the appropriate environment and stimulation to assist my son<<

And it's unthinkable that anybody else could have such knowledge? I don't know any special needs teachers as such. But my sister is a speech pathologist of many years experience, specialising in children. She may not teach them the school curriculum, but she still teaches them. A lot of her patients have an autism spectrum diagnosis. Are you going to sit there and insinuate that my dear darling big sister doesn't know how to provide an appropriate environment and stimulation to assist an aspie? I take exception to that.

>>in his quest.<<

In his quest? I'm sorry, but in his quest? XD

As much as I wish it was, life is not a game of D&D. And playing too much D&D is not a life although there is no harm in moderate gaming despite what fundamentalist Christians will have you believe. Vin Diesel plays D&D and he's buff.

Cheers,

Tony
Posted by Tony Lavis, Monday, 26 March 2012 10:34:03 PM
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Tony,

Your post was too long - didn't read...see ya!
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 26 March 2012 10:34:51 PM
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Bonmot. You've lost me. The link you posted next to my username sends me straight back to this thread. The point I make stands. Our education system is geared to creating cynicism toward, rather than mass servitude to, the capitalist system. As such the article has no grounding in reality.
Posted by dozer, Monday, 26 March 2012 11:51:30 PM
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tony,

I apologise for that, but it was impossible for me not to run with your demeaning TLDR line.

The curious thing is that both my brother and sister are teachers...and yes, they both support my decision wholeheartedly.

I'm sure your sister is wonderful at her job.

When my son attended kindergarten, he was fortunate to have an experienced and perceptive teacher. She approached me on and off during the year with some concerns regarding my son's autistic tendencies. During this year my son also began to read fluently - something I can take no credit for as he just spontaneously began to read. Eventually toward the end of that year I took him to a developmental paediatrician who, after some tests, a chat (and taking note of his reading) pronounced my son 'gifted'. As you can imagine, I was rather chuffed about that and promptly informed the teacher that she'd been barking up the wrong tree.
During his next year in pre-school, I began to think differently. I made it my business to thoroughly investigate behaviours and sensory issues related to autism (high-functioning). My research and my knowledge of my son led me to request a referral for a formal assessment (psychologist and speech pathologist) from our paediatrician. This fellow was at pains to tell me that in his opinion my son wouldn't meet the criteria. He even smirked as he said this to me. (after all, this is the bloke who had dismissed it earlier in favour of giftedness). In the end I stuck to my guns and had to be quite assertive. However, my son was eventually formally assessed. He met 9.5 of the 12 criteria - when 6 would have been enough to to give him a formal diagnosis.
The paediatrician got it 'wrong'. If my son had still been at school, and I'd acquiesced to the paediatrician's erroneous conclusions, my son would have had no 'special needs' assistance because he wasn't formally diagnosed.

My boy has matured and developed a lot since then and is doing fine.

Yep...stupid parents. What could they possibly know?
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 27 March 2012 12:04:00 AM
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Actually dozer, the link sends you straight back to your inane post, ending with:

>> Quite frankly I see Ted and his supporters as the enemy, as they have made it explicitly clear they want to destroy civillisation. <<

Yeah, right.

Let me put it this way ... your comments have all the hallmarks of a raving lunatic, sorry.
Posted by bonmot, Tuesday, 27 March 2012 6:34:29 AM
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Bonmot,

Sending me a link to my comments, calling them "inane," and calling me a "raving lunatic," does not constitute an argument. Although I have so far only provided anecdotal evidence to support my assertions, I have nevertheless made assertions which you make no attempt to counter. I assume that you assume that people who don't think like you are dumber than you and can be silenced with wise-cracks such as "Hasbeen."

With regard to my conclusion that "Quite frankly, I see Ted and his supporters as the enemy, as they have made it explicitly clear that they want to destroy civillisation," this is not that much of a stretch. Ted explicitly supports the concept of "no econmomic growth" using the Trojan argument that "consumer-capitalist society is plunging toward economic catastrophe." This tired argument is simply communism by another name. He advocates "transition to a Simpler Way (not in itself a bad idea,) a society in which there are mostly small and highly self-sufficient local communities...(controlling) their own local economies which they run to meet local needs from local resources." Again it sounds quite nice, and might be a nice place to visit to get away from it all, but for the entire planet of 6 billion people to "transition" would result in tremendous upheaval and suffering. I would also imagine mass starvation and death. One thing I have found when arguing with nuts like Ted is that they play their desire for the kind of conflagration necessary for
Posted by dozer, Tuesday, 27 March 2012 10:23:26 AM
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such a "transition" very close to their chest. When I hear someone calling for no economic growth, no trade between communities, and no alternative to their plans as the world is headed for disaster, I hear lunatic who wants to end civillisation as we know it. We call Christians who believe the world is going to end lunatics. You're calling me a lunatic for pointing out the idiocy of a communist/ environmentalist/ whatever-new-path-he-thinks-he-is-ist who thinks the world is going to end.

Scarily, his last line "If you want Education, you will have to join those of us working for the transition to a society that makes it possible," displays his desire to make people think the way he thinks. According to him, there is no other way. Quite authoritarian. Anyone who has studied revolutions will recognise this attitude as the seed of the terror to come. So I have no qualms in calling him the enemy.

And finally bonmot, with regard to your assertion to spindoc that "The gist of Ted's article was not "Do schools and universities educate,"" in the first sentence of the second paragraph of Ted's article he says "Despite significant differences they agree that schools and universities train workers, very well, but don't do much educating." On several occassions in his article he uses the words "school" and "university" in the same sentence, and he also refers to ""educational" institutions."

Sorry.
Posted by dozer, Tuesday, 27 March 2012 10:27:01 AM
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Cue Arjay?
Posted by bonmot, Tuesday, 27 March 2012 11:39:16 AM
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Fight your own battles, bonmot.
Posted by dozer, Tuesday, 27 March 2012 9:19:24 PM
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Dear dozer,

Hate to burst your bubble, you being on a roll and wanting some attention, engagement and all ... but;

There are no 'reds under the beds' and the world aint going to end anytime soon despite that you think the author the vanguard of a world wide assault.

Sheesh
Posted by bonmot, Wednesday, 28 March 2012 7:23:46 AM
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>>I apologise for that, but it was impossible for me not to run with your demeaning TLDR line.<<

I apologise for demeaning you. Where I come from TLDR is not considered impolite. Personally I don't mind reading large volumes of text: but I like to read them old school style - printed on pieces of paper and preferably bound into books. Reading large volumes of text off a computer screen is probably bad for your eyes and definitely just plain annoying. Especially when a more succinct link could communicate the point just as effectively.

Basically, TLDR is the modern equivalent of 'brevity is the soul of wit'. I'll try to use that phrase from now on, for fear of inadvertently demeaning you old kunts.

>>Yep...stupid parents. What could they possibly know?<<

More about their children than anybody else in the world. That's their job. But less about medicine than doctors/nurses, less about diesel engines than diesel mechanics, less about terroir than vignerons, and yes, less about teaching than teachers. Because unless teaching is their job, chances are they won't be nearly as good at it as real teachers.

>>The paediatrician got it 'wrong'. If my son had still been at school, and I'd acquiesced to the paediatrician's erroneous conclusions, my son would have had no 'special needs' assistance because he wasn't formally diagnosed.<<

Long story short: because some idiot paediatrician cocked up, you've seen fit to throw the baby out with the bathwater and eschew the wisdom of other professionals. This is understandable: once bitten, twice shy. I would ask that you reflect on the wisdom of that decision.

TBC
Posted by Tony Lavis, Wednesday, 28 March 2012 5:47:57 PM
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Because I could use a little extra money on the side. So I thought I might offer you my services as a home dentist: dentist's waiting lists are long and they cost a lot when you finally do get your appointment. In less time than it takes to get in to see a real dentist, I can be on your front doorstep with a big grin on my face and a cordless drill in the other. And for only $25 an hour, cash in hand.

Now, it's true that I have zero training in the art of dentistry: but I have some experience in the field of organic chemistry which basically necessitates a familiarity with the solvents chloroform and diethyl ether. These days I'm an apprentice chef, so I get to handle a lot of food grade nitrous oxide: the cheats way to whip cream. So I have some idea about some of the earlier dental anaesthetics and one which is still in common use.

I haven't used a power drill since year 8, and that was only in woodwork class, but I'm sure it's like riding a bike: it'll come back to me once I get started. How different can children's teeth be from chunks of pine?

I'll have more trouble with fillings: I don't know how to make the amalgam ones and I can't be bothered grave-robbing to get gold ones. But I am reasonably handy with a pair of pliers: so we can just yank out the bad ones and replace them with some cool wooden falsies, George Washington style.

So how about it? For a mere $25 an hour and not a word to the taxman: I will come over to your house, dose your kid up on chloroform and whippits, take to his tender young jaw with a cheap cordless power drill and attempt to repair my butchery with poorly carved wooden false teeth. I'll even clean up the inevitable mess, although you'll have to clean up the ongoing psychological trauma.

TBC
Posted by Tony Lavis, Wednesday, 28 March 2012 5:49:51 PM
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Or maybe not. Maybe some things are just better left to people with the proper expertise. Maybe being intelligent and caring and passionate and comitted and having a very firm belief in one's own abilities don't actually amount to a whole lot of beans when compared with good old fashioned know-how.

An exercise for the reader: if this applies to dentistry (etc.) why does it not apply to teaching? 750 words or less and no links.

Cheers,

Tony
Posted by Tony Lavis, Wednesday, 28 March 2012 5:51:05 PM
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Tony Lavis,

He wasn't an 'idiot paediatrician'. He was a competent paediatrician who failed to comprehend the situation regarding my son. He is a well-respected paediatician in this city and looked after my son well after a traumatic birth.

Autism, at the 'high end' of the spectrum can be quite tricky to diagnose as no two children display the exactly the same behaviours and sensory disturbances, or display them in the same degree. This fellow had reports from teachers and therapists at his disposal and chose to ignore them all - as well as my own well-researched conclusions. This happens a lot with children at this end of the spectrum and there are many kids out there who receive little or no understanding as they haven't been formally diagnosed.

My son enjoyed two great years before he began school proper. I had already decided to homeschool him at the end of those two years but relented to 'see how he coped' at the start of grade 1. Within a very short time he was an emotional wreck. Unfortunately he ended up with a recalcitrant teacher who wasn't interested in anything I had to say. I withdrew him and contacted the ed department and we went from there. He wasn't formally diagnosed until six months later. I could have left him there and spent the foreseeable future tangoing with school authorities but I decided not to take that option like most parents do.

We are visited by a moderator who assesses his progress - so far it's very good. Yes, I know I'm not a 'teacher', but I am the person who guides my son. I don't have to control a large class and work out which material to stuff into their minds - ours is a whole different paradigm which I won't bother explaining because I doubt if you'd grasp an idea so far outside the square.
Posted by Poirot, Wednesday, 28 March 2012 8:22:13 PM
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Tony Lavis,

I just reread your posts.....I'm pretty well over smart-ar$ed sarcasm on this forum.

I'm sorry I bothered to reply....

Discussion over.
Posted by Poirot, Wednesday, 28 March 2012 8:47:22 PM
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Wow bonmot.

Derision is not an argument. You still have not answered anything I have said. To call me an attention seeker is just dumb.

I know the world is not going to end. I have pointing out that the author believes our consumer-capitalist system is plunging the world toward disaster. So you agree with me that the author's assertion is ridiculous, then?

The author proposes an end to competition, large scale trade, and from what I can see is in favour of significant "land reform." How would you classify this if it is not communist or socialist inspired? Does he not summarise "radical" educational theorists?
Posted by dozer, Wednesday, 28 March 2012 11:18:41 PM
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