Yabby,

As I've written many times before on earlier threads, I'm in favour of legalising suicide, that, as a last resort, it should not be a criminal act that a person finds a way to kill him/herself. But when it involves another person, it's adifferent ball-game: how do you distinguish suicide from murder in that case ?

And when it involves another person who stands to benefit, how do you distinguish suicide from premeditated murder for gain ?

My understanding is that the deceased in this case was not incapacitated, and wasn't even in any sort of pain, only deep depression - not that pain should be an incitement to kill somebody. Suicide should be an act of self-determination: involve someone else and it ceases to be so.

Cheers,

Joe

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/queensland-teacher-jailed-for-helping-suicide-of-man-76/story-e6frg6nf-1226272723498

Joe, if you read just one article of the many, Ward had suffered
a stroke and upon his second stroke he acted. He clearly mistrusted
the medical industry and given that he'd thought about this for
a couple of years, no, it was not the case of a healthy adult having
a depressing moment. Just a very different perspective of life,
to the one that you have.

Suicide is in fact legal in Australia. Its just a question of the
method. Plastic bags, guns, jumping in front of a train whatever,
are not the most pleasant of methods. Some people are incapacitated
and can't choose, what is perfectly legal for others. In Perth,
Rossiter only got one choice, ie starve himself to death, as he was
bedridden.

Nembutal is what we use for our pets, when we feel they should suffer
no more. Yet we cannot make that same choice about our own lives,
even though suicide is quite legal. Read the link that I provided
earlier about the rules that Exit Switzerland enforces and tell me
what is wrong with those.

Hi Yabby,

I have no problem with suicide, or with Exit Switzerland, as long as people are aware of counselling services, and still make up their minds, weighing up all the implications and options and consequences, to take their own lives.

But when another person is involved in some way, the game changes. In this case, the two factors - that

(a) Nielsen procured the means, and may have been present when Ward took the Nembutal; and

(b) that Nielsen stood to gain from Ward's death

- make all the difference.

In fact, each factor compounds the culpability. If Nielsen had had half a brain and shot through to Perth or somewhere far away, with a promise from Ward that he wouldn't do it for a week or so - to literally put some space and time between them - then Nielsen may have been in the clear.

But there would still be the unavoidable facts that he, and he alone, procured the material for Ward to kill himself, and he, and he alone, stood to gain from the death. Isn't that so ? Isn't that getting pretty close to manslaughter, or death through negligence ?

Not the best possible example for your cause :(

Cheers,

Joe

Oh I fully agree Joe, that it is not a good example. I also fully
agree that the two bungled it, for neither are/were criminals, so
did not think alot those lines.

My initial post was against Russel, who is harping on about this,
as that is seemingly what the organisation that he works for,
pays him to do. I wonder how much funding that they receive from
the Catholic Church.

The judge had no choice in the matter, as assisting anyone with
suicide is breaking the law in Australia. So even if all of Nielsen's
motives were of good intent, ie to help his friend, by law he is
still guilty. Ward could not choose the Swiss option, as our law
is backward, which is my point.

But the devil is always in the details and if you examine the details, to decide wether Nielsen did it for the money or to help
his friend, who clearly chose this option, then its fairly clear
that he did it to help his friend.

Nielsen is a teacher, an intellectual, with a history of helping
older people. He'd known Ward for 30 years and Ward had nobody
closer, as previously he'd left his estate to meditation group,
before he changed his will, two years earlier.

Ward wrote a suicide note and drank champagne when he took the
Nembutal. He was hardly forced and had clearly been thinking about
this for years.

So if I had no close relatives, would I leave a good chunk of my
estate to a 30 year long friend who risked going to jail for years
for me? Absolutaly I would