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The Forum > Article Comments > Extinguishing conscience > Comments

Extinguishing conscience : Comments

By Mishka Góra, published 1/12/2011

Critical thinking eludes the modern mind leading to ethical atrocities.

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Yabby, last time I checked the Philippines was a democracy. And if people have such a problem with what the Catholic Church preaches, they can leave.

And you might want to actually expand a bit on those "threats" you mentioned. The threat was of civil disobedience by pro-life groups (i.e. that they won't pay taxes to fund things that go against their conscience) and that the government likewise threatened Catholics with being charged with sedition if they did so. Sounds to me like the Catholics were exercising their right to protest, whereas the GOVERNMENT was the one doing the threatening....
Posted by Lindy, Thursday, 15 December 2011 1:26:12 PM
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It's a bit late to yell "unfair", Mishka Gora.

>>I made my view of burning at the stake clear – “abhorrent” – and yet you continue to bring it up.<<

Just to remind you, Yabby made the perfectly accurate statement that:

>>[the Catholic Church] used to burn heretics like me.<<

Your response was essentially one of denial:

>>the Inquisition didn't actually burn anyone at the stake - heretics were handed over to the secular authorities<<

Yes, you did also describe it as an "abhorrent craze", but the thrust was "it wasn't the Church, it was the State". Which positively demanded a response along the lines "well, that's a bit expedient, don't you think?"

Incidentally, I chuckled at your line on Joan of Arc - "It was the Inquisitor-General who found that the English trial of Joan of Arc was invalid", which carefully ignores the fact that it was a French, Catholic Bishop who conducted the trial that led to her being burned at the stake in the first place. [Sounds off: more hands being washed]

Your next move was "well, they all did it":

>>...it isn't valid to assess today’s Church by a form of execution that was standard at the time<<

Which, of course, still fails to contradict Yabby's initial assertion.

And this is quite breathtaking:

>>Galileo’s heliocentric theory was never declared incorrect by the Church.<<

Not "incorrect". Just "explicitly contrary to Holy Scripture".

Perhaps, with your extraordinary ability to tap-dance around commonly understood words and expressions, you can enlighten us on the difference?

Were they saying "we know Holy Scripture is incorrect, but we can't possibly let the plebs know that"?

Surely not?
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 15 December 2011 2:46:06 PM
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A sense of balance or relevance Mishka? The way I understand things,
any organisation which is active in political lobbying about how
we all should live, is clearly up for scrutiny and criticism about
its own beliefs and values. I can't remember ever saying a word
against the Hare Krishnas for instance, because to the best of my
knowledge, they chant their mantras and don't get politically
involved. The question then arises, why should the church say
what it essentially pleases politically, but unlike other organisations, have some kind of
exemption from any criticism?

Mary, this is the quote from the article:

*Ramon San Pascual, director of the Philippine Legislators' Committee on Population and Development Foundation, said that the "fact that this bill has gotten so much momentum indicates that politicians are no longer scared by the church's threats. Some cultural change is taking place."*

I would have thought that the wording about who was threatening whom,
is actually quite clear.

I seem to recall many an occasion where politicians in various
countries were threatened with excommunication, if they did not
follow the church line. Now from my perspective such a threat would
be laughable. But from the perspective of a politician who was
indoctrinated as a child that only the Catholic Church could supply
his ticket to heaven and actually believed them, no doubt this could
seem quite scary and gives the church enormous power. The poor living
on the rubbish tips of Manilla are clearly paying a heavy price for
this. They have my empathy.
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 15 December 2011 5:00:52 PM
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Yabby,

Talking if excommunication...

This papal bull was issued by Pope Innocent VIII in the late 15th century.

"The bull urged local authorities to cooperate with the inquisitors and threatened those who impeded their work with excommunication."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summis_desiderantes_affectibus
Posted by Poirot, Thursday, 15 December 2011 7:43:03 PM
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This thread has become pretty sad, with all the 'raking over of the coals' of ancient and almost entirely irrelevant history. Want to point fingers? Why not have a go at the Brits sending convicts to the penal colonies, or the wonderful early treatment, and much more recent treatment of our indigenous people, or of our woeful treatment of asylum seekers, or of Asaad in Syria, or Indonesia in West Papua, China in Tibet, Myanmar, Shri-Lanka and the Tamuls, Israel/Palestine, Pakistan and India in the disputed north, Afghanistan and Iraq, ......

In the current, and relevant, world situation, it could be strongly argued that a lack of balanced 'conscience' and a consequent lack of any genuine attempt to respect human and civil rights is in large part responsible for these current disastrous situations.

How many Catholics are running around stirring for blood? How many saying fie on all ye damned non-Catholics? How many doing any more than protecting themselves, neighbours, kith and kin when set upon by radical elements? And, what do Catholics preach - Peace, and love toward all Men!

Let's get real here! There are some dead-set prunes in this world, but I don't see any Catholics among them, no Catholic terrorist organisations, no suicide bombers or constructors of roadside bombs, no demented mass-murders or psychopaths. How many Catholics have ended up on Death Row?

Perspective my friends. Do unto others, but do it without thought of admiration or personal profit; do it for your fellow man in the spirit of giving, and in humility.

Empathy and hostility are unhappy bedfellows, and if one wants to ask what has gone so wrong with our international community, look to the elevation of nationalism and self-interest over the rights of citizens, and point your finger at the shambles of the United Nations - united in name only.
Posted by Saltpetre, Thursday, 15 December 2011 9:33:26 PM
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Yabby, you are such a bigot. You trawl the web to find things that fit your warped worldview, then when someone points out an error in your sources you simply ignore it.

If you had any sense of integrity you wouldn't rely on one English-language quote. Haven't you heard of research - you know, finding out all sides of the story, digging for the truth? If you really cared about the Philippines and the plight of its people, perhaps you'd bother reading some of the Filipino media. Perhaps you'd realise that the original quote was in Tagalog and open to misinterpretation. According to the Filipino media, pro-life groups had threatened civil disobedience (by not paying taxes) and the government had threatened to charge them with sedition. It had nothing to do with the Church threatening politicians with eternal hellfire. I've already told you this, but you prefer to twist one vague quote to suit your agenda. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

But, hey, don't let the truth get in the way of your prejudices!
Posted by Lindy, Friday, 16 December 2011 7:12:51 AM
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