imajulianutter, it’s not my “pretense” [sic], it’s the Palestinian Liberation Organisation’s: "There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel." (Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council)

And there is a difference between Palestine (a geographical area), Palestinians (people who live in that geographical area), Palestine (a nation), and Palestinians (people of Palestinian ethnicity/identity). It is only the latter two I am disputing as a recent ‘construct’, and that on the word of various so-called Palestinians.

csteele, it seems there are also dangers in using subtlety. I said “IF anyone is occupying land”, but it is apparent my use of the conjunction if was rather too abstract for this discussion. I do apologise. However, I stand by my assertion that Israel is not an occupying force. And, no, it does not allow me “to label anyone who responds with arms against arms as a terrorist”. You clearly have not read my comments properly and I am not going to reiterate. The same goes for the rest of your comment. If you cannot understand what I have said previously, you will never understand. You have failed to condemn the most clear-cut cases of terrorism, and I see no point in continuing the discussion. (Ditto to imajulianutter)

Dear Montgomery,

Since accusing me of failing to grasp abstract concepts is the mildest of the labels you have pinned on me, again I take no offence.

To be clear I totally condemn the terrorism displayed by both sides in this conflict and attacking and terrorising civilian populations whether deliberate or a calculated by product sickens most of us who see this from afar.

Yet of all the incidents I have tabled the only one you found dis-quietening was the kidnap of the Muamar brothers which you said was 'shady'. Clear the mote from thy own eye brother.

With the pace coming out of our postings I am going to take the opportunity to address a few issues. The first is your statement after calling me disingenuous because the “The military vs civilian court point is a red herring. It wouldn’t make any difference to their guilt.”

Viewing the list of Palestinian prisoners released one can see many convictions heralding back to the late eighties and early nineties when the settlements really started to crank up. I felt it would be instructive to see how an Israeli terrorist might have been treated at the same time. Rabbi Moshe Leving was suspected of being heavily involved in the Israel terrorist group the Jewish Underground responsible for a series of car bomb attacks and of planting bombs on six Arab buses in Jerusalem in 1984 which “were timed to go off on Friday afternoon, presumably to coincided with people returning home from celebrating the Muslim holiday of Isra Wal Me'eraj .” Pearlier they had attacked an Islamic College claiming three lives and over 30 injured. The Rabbi was never convicted.

In 1988 the Rabbi again faced charges, this time for shooting dead an Palestinian shop keeper and wounding a customer. His sentence after a plea bargain? Five months in prison for which he served a grand total of 92 days. On his release he said “I hope that next time, I will be more careful and I won't miss the target.”

Yet if he had been a Palestinian?

'And there is a difference between Palestine (a geographical area), Palestinians (people who live in that geographical area), Palestine (a nation), and Palestinians (people of Palestinian ethnicity/identity). It is only the latter two I am disputing as a recent ‘construct’, and that on the word of various so-called Palestinians.'

Utter rubbish, you initially made no distinction at all and your initial comments were aimed at justifying the Israeli occupation by continuing a pretense: because the Palestinians didn't exist, which you now contradict, Israel isn't occupying anything.

Don't you see the absurdity of your position?

To make the positions you espouse perfectly clear to you, answer the following fairly simple questions.

If there is no occupation then why do you try to justifty the occupation?

What is the ethnicity of these Palestinians ... (i) those who live in the geographical Palestine, (ii) your Palestinian nation and (iii)your so-called recent 'construct' who are part of your so-called people of Palestinian ethnicity/identity?

Since you claim Palestine is a geographical region and suggest there is a Palestinian race when all mid-eastern peoples are of the semitic languages, you have left me somewhat bewildered by your explanations.
Do you think there is an Israeli race?

Where do these 'construct' Palestinians of the Palestinian Nation, who you claim don't exist, actually reside?

The description by the Hamas representative is pre-dated, as far back as 1948, by many on both sides, it is disingenuous to suggest it was not.

Montgomery is your reason for 'ditto', because you have you tied yourself up in knots by using just a tad to many weasel word justifications?

imajulianutter, the reason I used “ditto” was that I have had a look at your comment history and seen how you respond to reasonable people who give you reams of evidence for their contentions, and that is with irrational disrespect. Civilised conversation is impossible with you.

csteele, once again you are making totally immoral comparisons. Rabbi Moshe Levinger acted in self-defence, and what he actually said was “IF I'M IN A SITUATION OF DANGER AGAIN, I'll again open fire. I hope that next time, I will be more careful and I won't miss the target." He admitted he felt justified in shooting to kill as he was under attack, but he missed and was not responsible for the death of the man in question. As for the bombing of buses in 1984, that is pure slander. The police question all manner of suspects – indeed, parents are the first to be ‘suspected’ in a child abduction but that is no indication of their guilt – but the Rabbi was released, never charged, and three other Israelis were CONVICTED and given LIFE SENTENCES. So, you see, Israeli terrorists were treated in much the same manner – convicted and given life sentences! (The subsequent actions of President Herzog would be a legitimate object of criticism, I agree, but you cannot deny that justice was served in the Israeli courts.) The reaction of Israelis to these terrorists is also instructive. Unlike the Palestinians who hail Hamas as heroes, most Israelis condemned the Jewish Underground terrorism and it even caused a rift in their own organisation because many were shocked by and unaware of such plots.

Though you say you condemn terrorism, you continue to question the convictions of terrorists who have actually claimed responsibility for their murderous acts. Furthermore, you have deliberately misrepresented Rabbi Moshe Levinger in a defamatory fashion, accusing him of being a terrorist when others have been convicted for the crime in question. I find that abominable and will not be reading/commenting any further. Say what you will – I do not care for your good opinion!

Yep, tied up in your own knots.

My dear Montgomery,

I think the most grateful entity of your refusal to engage in further discussion is that poor high horse you keep leaping on to. One gets the feeling it will welcome the respite.

You again didn't answer a direct question. What if he had been a Palestinian and his victims Jewish? All you needed to do was point me to a single case where a Palestinian had served 92 days or there abouts for shooting a couple of Israelis in 'self defense'.

If I am to be accused of defaming the Rabbi then I should do the job properly. I regard him as a lying, belligerent, aggressive, murdering, bullying, religious fundamentalist terrorist not averse to assaulting six year olds and the fact that you are prepared to leap to his defense illustrates the tragedy of the price the occupation exacts on the Jewish people.

In the case where he assaulted a Palestinian woman and her two daughters the judge ruled evidence from the Palestinian witnesses were from 'interested parties' and so dismissed it. He the proceeded to do the same for the two witnesses from the IDF. The Rabbi again walked free.

What would a Palestinian receive for assaulting an Israeli woman and her two daughters? No need to answer.

Red herring?