Sarkozy has Jewish ancestry and is aware of what has happened to Jews living in Christian countries. If Australia became a Christian country I would become a second class citizen since I am a Jew. All countries should treat all citizens equally without regard to their religion and ethnicity. There should be no second class citizens. There should be no Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu countries. Religious belief or lack of it should be absolutely no business of any government. Sarkozy is spot on.

The author seems to have forgotten that Sarkozy is a cheese-eating surrender monkey, and that the frogs traditionally have a stronger commitment to the separation of church and state than we do in Australia. Religious Australians might regard such a comments as 'offensive' and 'politically inept', but I doubt many Frenchies will care the slightest bit about them. And for once, I cannot help but find myself in full agreement with the French.

David F,
With your philosophy, you will never be a second class citizen anywhere and will never incur the wrath of anybody other than by your actions, which seems improbable.
One can be assume that you are an Australian citizen who is Jewish. As such, you are no different to an Australian citizen who has any other religion, of which there are many, or indeed, an atheist, in numbers, probably more. This is a secular country and the separation of church and state is enshrined in out thinking, rightly so.

Acolyte Rizla, you are not alone as most of the world is in full agreement with the French. Not always easy, but this time, yes.
As for Mr. Singer's "Sarko", his only mistake was not having said what he has now said, years ago.

However, the writer of this article, as we have some to expect, is clearly an Israel-oriented citizen with a convenient Australian address, for whatever reason.

If a 'Jewish State' simply meant Jews were in the majority there wouldn't be an issue. And if David Ben-Gurion's intentions were carried out and all had equal citizenship - there would not be any issue either. But increasingly the term 'Jewish State' is taken to infer a state which has a 'Jewish character' *in the sense* that it is not equally a state which aims to represent the relevant minorities.

Before Israel's formation there was talk of a 'national home for the Jews' and a 'Jewish national home'. This need not infer a systematically-discriminatory state. (except in the military where there is no other viable option for now)

It is understandable that in a hostile region and with the Holocaust still in living memory that Israeli Jews wish a monopoly on the apparatus of force in Israel. And it's understandable that they would want a demilitarised future Palestinian state because of the recent history. But aside from this the Israeli state needs to fulfil Ben-Gurion's stated intention of equal citizenship.

And in a context where minorities are marginalised in the party-political process - this should also mean anti-discrimination and affirmative action policies where appropriate; as well as structures for consultation with minorities over policies which especially affect them.

And it must involve a policy of respect - A recognition that Israel IS the home of the various minorities as well. It's very well to have a religious belief that God intended for the Jewish people to settle the land of Israel; But this is not necessarily to infer that they not share that land with in a spirit of recognition and respect with others.

' ... it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.'

There you go again David.

In your zealots propagandising zest you completely ignore the intention of the UN, which was not to create a Jewish State, but to create a homeland for Jewish people.

The states created were Israel and Palestine. Both ahd populations of Jews and non-Jews.

It seems to me the founder of christianity rejected Jewish beliefs and would have great difficulty supporting the Jewish zealots actions in regard to others, if he were alive today.

Sarko has much more in common with Christ and the UN than the discriminatory Jewish community within Israel today.
Why do you ignore the above quite specific qualification?

Dear imajulianutter,

Jesus rejected no Jewish beliefs. His best lines such as 'love thy neighbour' are found in the Jewish scriptures. 'Love thy neighbour' comes from Leviticus. What Jewish beliefs did Jesus reject? Jesus lived and died a Jew.

David,

There's a whole bunch of stuff in Leviticus (and other books of the Old Testament) that Jesus didn't reject, but which he didn't espouse either. Just off the top of my head, the bits about keeping slaves and stoning people to death for minor infractions (like females attending Church whilst menstruating), as well as all the strange dietary laws.

Christians try to adhere to what Jesus is recorded as saying in the New Testament. Whilst he may not have actually rejected any Jewish beliefs, Christians tend to follow only the ones he specifically encouraged. And in the case of some 'Christians', a few that he didn't encourage - Jesus never said anything about homosexuality, and the condemnations thereof in the New Testament all come from Saul (St. Paul - not the messiah, just a very naughty boy).

Dear Acolyte Rizla,

Jesus was a fairly typical Jew. He criticised other Jews, didn't accept a lot of things and recommended changes. However, like most Jews he observed the important Jewish holidays. The last supper was a Passover seder. It was Paul who was responsible for starting a new religion in Jesus' name. Christians do not follow the religion of Jesus since he wasn't a Christian and never rejected his religion.

To the tune of the old jazz standard:

Six foot two,
Eyes of blue,
Jesus Christ,
He was a Jew.
Has anybody seen my Lord?

Big hooked nose,
There he goes.
Preaching so
That everyone knows
Has anybody seen my Lord?

Speared in the abdomen
By a Roman
Blood gushing out

Rose from the dead
So it is said
People believe without a doubt

Jesus died
Still a Jew
Still a Jew
So why aren't you?
Has anybody seen my Lord?

David,

The Eucharist, David, The Eucharist. You have demonstrated you have scant understanding of our religious rituals and beliefs. It is arrant nonsense to attempt to equate them with the underlying evil and pagan rituals of Judeaism.

Why was He crucified at the behest of the Jewish priests by Puncis Pilate?

Do all typical Jews claim to be the Son of God?

Christ preached forgiveness and turning the other cheek which is the ultimate rejection of the basic tenet of all aspects of the revengeful Jewish Law ... an eye for an eye.

By the way in case you haven't noticed the Western Justice system is based in forgiveness, reconciliation and renewal and not revenge and atonement.

Hundreds of great western thinkers over many generations have re-inforced the teachings of Christ as part of the basis of Western justice and society. We have never looked to our musicians for deep thought and sensible philosophy. That you think we would suggests you hold us as contemptable idiots who hang onto or adopt shallow and/or unworkable ideas.

Yes you are right the Acolyte Rizla and the particular reference is Christs Sermon on the Mount.

Dear imajulianutter,

The Eucharist is a pagan ritual that has been adopted by Christianity.

From “PAGAN & CHRISTIAN CREEDS: THEIR ORIGIN AND MEANING” by Edward Carpenter:

Justin Martyr clearly had no doubt about the resemblance of the Mithraic to the Christian ceremony. A sacramental meal, as mentioned a few pages back, seems to have been held by the worshipers of Attis in commemoration of their god; and the 'mysteries' of the Pagan cults generally appear to have included rites--sometimes half-savage, sometimes more aesthetic--in which a dismembered animal was eaten, or bread and wine (the spirits of the Corn and the Vine) were consumed, as representing the body of the god whom his devotees desired to honor. … Festivals of this kind in celebration of the extinction and resurrection of the deity were held (by women and girls only) amid the mountains at night, every third year, about the time of the shortest day.

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth was an advance over the customs of the day. When a member of one family injured a member of another family this could result in a blood feud which could continue for generations. The lex talionis eliminated revenge and blood feuds and turned punishment over to civil authorities. The recompense could
not exceed the original injury and was generally compensated for by a monetary payment.

http://biblicalresearch.gc.adventist.org/Biblequestions/eyeforeye.htm is a Christian site which will give you more details.

The Romans occupied Jerusalem and were in control. The new sect seeking converts among the Romans did not wish to blame the Roman authorities so put the blame on Jewish priests. The New Testament is a political document.

Roman archives show that Pontius Pilate was dismissed from his post for cruelty, but the New Testament account portrays him as a wishy-washy individual. Archives are generally accurate.

Most Jews do not claim to be the Son of God because most are sane.

I doubt you are a contemptible idiot. You seem ignorant and prejudiced. However, with an open mind and a willingness to learn both can be corrected.

Sadly for you David that you regard Christ as an insane Jew really does call into question whether you have respect for the religious beliefs of the people you are attempting to persuade to support your cause.

What ever were you thinking in showing such disrespect?

You believe the Eucharist a pagan ritual ... may I quote you in future?

Of course an eye for an eye etc was an advance for the times but don't you think to base a legal system on atonement and revenge (Even monetary) a tad archaic in light of the advances liberal western civilisations have developed in law and justice over the past 2000 odd years?

Of course the result of our system is we seek and generally produce peace and forgiveness whereas Judaeism produces conflict, anger and violence.

Now what was it that was said about citizens rights in Israel by that UN committee?
You know one of those committees in that organisation that has a regular 'theatre of the absurd'?

Dear imajulianutter,

I respect no religious beliefs. Religions get beliefs from other religions. Christianity is no exception.

Also from PAGAN & CHRISTIAN CREEDS: THEIR ORIGIN AND MEANING by Edward Carpenter:

"At the time of the life or recorded appearance of Jesus of Nazareth, and for some centuries before, the Mediterranean and neighboring world had been the scene of a vast number of pagan creeds and rituals. There were Temples without end dedicated to gods like Apollo or Dionysus among the Greeks, Hercules among the Romans, Mithra among the Persians, Adonis and Attis in Syria and Phrygia, Osiris and Isis and Horus in Egypt, Baal and Astarte among the Babylonians and Carthaginians, and so forth. Societies, large or small, united believers and the devout in the service or ceremonials connected with their respective deities, and in the creeds which they confessed concerning these deities. And an extraordinarily interesting fact, for us, is that notwithstanding great geographical distances and racial differences between the adherents of these various cults, as well as differences in the details of their services, the general outlines of their creeds and ceremonials were—if not identical--so markedly similar as we find them.

I cannot of course go at length into these different cults, but I may say roughly that of all or nearly all the deities above-mentioned it was said and believed that:

(1) They were born on or very near our Christmas Day.
(2) They were born of a Virgin-Mother.
(3) And in a Cave or Underground Chamber.
(4) They led a life of toil for Mankind.
(5) And were called by the names of Light-bringer, Healer, Mediator, Savior, Deliverer.
(6) They were however vanquished by the Powers of Darkness.
(7) And descended into Hell or the Underworld.
(8) They rose again from the dead, and became the pioneers of mankind to the Heavenly world.
(9) They founded Communions of Saints, and Churches into which disciples were received by Baptism.
(10) And they were commemorated by Eucharistic meals."

The inventors of Christianity incorporated pagan legends to appeal to a world where people were aware of those legends.

The Bible, like any other book, was written by humans and should be questioned. One Christian who has questioned some parts of the Bible is Bishop Spong.

http://johnshelbyspong.com/sample-essays/the-terrible-texts/

RELIGIOUS BIGOTRY:

“No one comes to the Father but by me” (John 14:6)

This text has helped to create a world where adherents of one religion feel compelled to kill adherents of another. A veritable renaissance of religious terror now confronts us and is making against us the claims we have long made against religious traditions different from our own.

ANTI-SEMITISM:

And the people answered, ‘His blood be on us and on our children’” (Matt. 27:25)

No other verse of Holy Scripture has been responsible for so much violence and so much bloodshed. People convinced that these words conferred legitimacy and even holiness on their hostility have killed millions of Jewish people over history. Far more than Christians today seem to understand, to call the Bible “Word of God” in any sense is to legitimize this hatred reflected in its pages.

SEXISM:

For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.” (1Cor. 8-9)

The message of the Christian church was once that women are evil to their core and it was built on the story of Eve. She was taken out of man and was not his equal, but his helpmeet. Evil entered human history through the weakness of the woman. She was made to bear the blame and the guilt. She was the source of death.

He is a devout Christian who wants to recognise the flaws in his religion and confront those flaws. Religions can improve.

Religions can put down other religions. In the interfaith movement people rather than putting down other religions meet people of other religions and try to learn about the beliefs of the others and to become friends with people of other religions. I think that is a good thing. If you got involved in that I think you would be less likely to demonise other religions.

Why is it David that you feel the need to go off on a tangent attacking Christian belief when I challenged David's support for Israel and his attempts to align Israeli tyranny with western cultural traditions?

Dear imajulianutter,

I attacked Christianity because of your statements about Christian beliefs and connecting Christianity with peace and reconciliation. If you push your beliefs others can attack them.

Christian history contains appalling violence far outweighing any commitment to peace. It was sporadic until Theodosius. Then Christianity institutionalised forcible conversion, massacre and torture.

Theodosius made Christianity the official Roman religion. Christian persecution of paganism under Theodosius I began in 381, after the first couple of years of his reign in the Eastern Roman Empire. In the 380s, Theodosius I reiterated Constantine's ban on Pagan sacrifice, prohibited haruspicy on pain of death, pioneered the criminalization of Magistrates who did not enforce anti-Pagan laws, broke up some pagan associations and destroyed Pagan temples.

Between 389-391 he promulgated the infamous "Theodosian decrees," which established a practical ban on paganism, visits to the temples were forbidden, remaining Pagan holidays abolished, the eternal fire in the Temple of Vesta extinguished, the Vestal Virgins disbanded, auspices and witchcraft punished.

In 392 he became Emperor of the whole Empire (the last one to do so). From then till the end of his reign in 395, while Pagans demanded toleration, he authorized or participated in the destruction of many temples, holy sites, images and objects of piety throughout the empire. participated in actions by Christians against major Pagan sites.

He issued a comprehensive law that prohibited any Pagan ritual even within the privacy of one's home, and was particularly oppressive of Manicheans. Paganism was now proscribed, a "religio illicita". He is likely to have suppressed the Ancient Olympic Games, whose last record of celebration is from 393.

Christianity has continued this pattern through the Crusades, the Wars of the Reformation, the Inquisition, the genocide of the Indians by the Spanish and other European powers calling them ‘creatures of the devil’ because they had a non-Christian religion, the Holocaust with both the Protestant and Catholic German churches backing Hitler, the Christian imperialists with missionaries and gunboats, etc.

Hypocrisy for you to criticise Israel. For a more peaceful and tolerant world eliminate Christianity or at least remove the evil in it.

as is usual David you avoided answering the question I asked. Here it is again

'Why is it David that you feel the need to go off on a tangent attacking Christian belief when I challenged David's support for Israel and his attempts to align Israeli tyranny with western cultural traditions?'

seems you are now attacking the far distant historical actions of Christanity (Which by the way isn't exclusively confined to Catholicism), since condemned and no longer applying in modern christianity action and belief.

Always the slimy devious dodging and weaving typical of you Israeli propagandists. Aren't you a teeny weeny bit ashamed of yourself?

And mate I'm not a Chrisian church believer ... I'm totally irreligious.

Dear imajulianutter,

I have not called your responses slimy, and I would appreciate equal courtesy from you.

As I made it clear in my first post I am not an Israeli supporter as I support separation of religion and state and oppose ethnic nationalism – neither of which is particularly true of Israel. I am neither an Israeli supporter nor an Israeli condemner. I sympathise with both Israel and the Palestinians. I support states which do not discriminate among its citizens on the basis of ethnicity or religion.

I am for separation of religion and state in both Israel and Australia and support the current attempt in Australia to get chaplains out of the public schools. I also would eliminate subsidies to religious schools in Australia and Israel and support a public school system where children of different ethnicities and religions mingle. That is not true in Israel at all, and I would like to see it promoted more in Australia.

However, I question your statements.

You made the statement about, “attempts to align Israeli tyranny with western cultural traditions” That statement assumes that Israel is a tyranny and it is not aligned with western tradition.

In the west there is a tradition of free elections, a free press and an independent judiciary. Israel follows those traditions to a greater extent than any of the countries around it. In that it is less of a tyranny than any of the surrounding countries. In Syria protestors are shot. The UN has estimated that 3000 people have been killed since the uprising began in March.

In Israel as in Australia, the UK and some other countries there are large protests against economic inequities. None of those governments has shut down the protests.

Western traditions also encompass unfairness and oppression. The European imperialistic powers did not acquire their vast empires by peaceful means. Gandhi whose country was occupied by England for many years was asked about western civilization. He replied, “What do I think of Western civilization? I think it would be a very good idea.”

Continued

Continued

Dear imajulianutter,

You brought up the subject of Christianity, and then call it a tangent when I am critical of it. Christianity is most relevant to the creation of Israel. The Zionist movement was an attempt to found a country where Jews would not be persecuted as they were in the Christian countries. If it were not for Christian persecution of Jews there would be no state of Israel.

You also wrote: seems you are now attacking the far distant historical actions of Christanity (Which by the way isn't exclusively confined to Catholicism), since condemned and no longer applying in modern christianity action and belief.

Since I never confined my remarks on Christianity to Catholicism I don’t understand your reference.

The Protestant and Catholic German churches backing the Nazis did not happen in the distant past. The Christian evil has been curbed in the countries which have a degree of separation of church and state. However, it still exists. Two examples of present Christian intolerance are Archbishop Jensen of the Sydney Anglican Diocese calling other religions ‘tools’ of Satan and U.S. Christian fundamentalists pushing the death penalty for homosexuals in Uganda.

I am not an Israeli supporter as I think a Jewish state is not a good idea. Christian, Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist states are not good ideas either. I favour separation of religion and state.

Israel is not as good as David Singer paints it nor as bad as you paint it.

Dear imajulianutter,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices contains freedom indices. According to them Israel is freer than most countries and is not a tyranny.

Please look up the reference.

'I have not called your responses slimy, and I would appreciate equal courtesy from you.'

No of course you haven't but do you see how the following statement made much earlier makes you look a tad sanctimonious and foolish?

'You seem ignorant and prejudiced. However, with an open mind and a willingness to learn both can be corrected.'

I've also stated

' ... the Western Justice system is based in forgiveness, reconciliation and renewal and not revenge and atonement.(Of the Judean system)

Hundreds of great western thinkers over many generations have re-inforced the teachings of Christ as part of the basis of Western justice and society.'

You've never been able to refute that fact. And now you've in your usual very slimey fashion tried to again confuse things by drawing a dishonest comparison between Israel and Liberal Democracies by comparing Judicaries.

David it doesn't matter how independant Judicaries are, in the West they are mostly and primarily concerned with intrepreting legislated laws... which are based in forgiveness, reconciliation and renewal.

The laws of Israel are tyrannical and apartheid in operation and are based on traditionaL Judean revenge and atonement.

Protesters are also shot in Israel, how that fact escaped you is way beyond belief.

Oh and I do think Israel isn't as tyrannical as some of it's neighbours and I'm pleased to see your displayed logic shows you accept Israel is in fact a tyranny.

Sheeeeeesh.