Father
I wasn't aware that asking a question of you was trivialising your position. If, as you assert, you have learned philosophy then you should also KNOW the utter foolishness of holding any belief as beyond question. Even your own. As to your implication that I am an athiest you are mistaken. I am neither an athiest nor an agnostic. As to your point about My pontificating - what can I say except I forgive you. I turn the other cheek. Would you like to strike that one too?

you misunderstand i dont mind you asking me questions AT ALL AT ALL i simp[y noted a patronising tone[only a passing perception which i still sense] in any case there is definitely LIFE AFTER BOSK and georgie as luigi calls me
i had already read your background email where you denied atheism etc --excellent 10/10--[see i am patronising now] i was simply responding in the context of an earlier email respondent and that i am well used to differing views attiudes etc so no need to turn the cheeck [sounds as though its been bruised enough- you offered it to an earlier correspondent also--very cheecky indeed even if a bit holier-than-thou PHILOSOPHY OF COURSE IS NOT AGAINST holding FIRMLY a position well thought out and already well questioned ----thus the point of my cv in my last posting. But i am surely entitled to comment if a comment sounds a bit over the top or patronising in other words QUESTIONING the questioner-free country mate at least it was yesterday. regards...

bosk,
don't forget to read my previous 2 posts, they were answering an earlier question of yours

Jose
A very thought-provoking argument you've given me. I'll try & address the main points. Sorry if I leave any out but the darn word limit catches up with me. First we define our terms. What are miracles? Miracles are defined as phenomena contrary to the laws of nature caused by a supernatural agent. Ok? Now lets have a look at your list.

1) Visions of Fatima. Since visions are not something happening in the real world [i.e. they are somthing that is occuring in the visionaries mind] no laws of nature are being broken so they CANNOT be classified as miracles.

Prophecies: The prophecies of Fatima that you mention [WW2, assassination attempt on the pope & so on] were only recognised after the fact. A prophecy which is recognised after the fact can hardly be said to violate the laws of nature. The only clear prophecy was the conversion of Russia which has still not occured. By the way, saying something will happen but not giving a date for it is hardly prophetic. If it happens believers claim it as a miracle, if it hasn't happened then believers can say it will happen in the future. A win either way for the believer but hardly miraculous.

The Incorruptables: Now this is something strange but there is insufficient evidence to declare that it violates the laws of nature. Why? because the only way to prove that no natural process is involved is for the bodies to be dissected. That won't happen anytime soon for obvious reasons. By the way Incorruptable bodies are NOT the sole domain of the catholic church. A buddhist boy's body was found incorruptable in 1986.

Stigmata: you didn't mention these but I thought I would anyway. These are the most amazing to my mind. But one point MUST be made. The wounds do NOT mimic the wounds of Christ. The wounds on stigmatics mimic those shown on religious paintings rather than ones that would actually have been inflicted on Jesus. Which suggests a psychological rather than a spiritual cause & therefore not miraculous.

Sorry to disappoint

apparitions may occur only in the mind by divine intervention or at a spatio-temporal location outside the visionary and percieved by the visionary-if god limits the vision to the mental faculties only, by an extraordinary intervention suspending the laws of nature for his own purposes-then we are still in the realm of the miraculous[not strictly speaking contrary to nature -merely laws of nature are suspended for gods purposes eg implanting a vision on the retina
By the way the mind and its perceptions are the object of numerous scientific investigations in worldwide faculties of bio-psychology in that sense it and its activities are 'realities' and in the real world of scientific endeavour as well as being 'real' verifiable subjective experiences
typos due to stroke rehab

Bosk,
Father has made a solid point there.
Also remember that there were 70,000 people there. The date was promised (October, 13th 1917). Don't also forget about them all being drenched- then stone dry afterwards.

I'll give you another good one. I apologise as it will be atrociously simplified. Guadalupe.
Mary appears to Juan Diego. Juan Diego tells the Bishop. The Bishop asks for proof. Juan goes back to the spot. Mary appears again and tells him to go up the hill and gather the flowers into his tilma (which is a classical Mexican garment- like a poncho). It's the wrong season too, but there are these flowers up there. He gathers them in his tilma and goes back down. Mary re-arranges them and sends him on his way. Juan goes to the Bishop where he lets the bottom of his tilma fall back down, the flowers falling to the floor. The Bishop and 1 or 2 others with him see the print of Mary left on the garment. So that's the rough backround.

Interesting stuff about this image.
- In the eyes of Mary are relfected the men standing in front of Juan Diego as he reveals the image.
- The stars on the garment Mary is wearing are in a pattern. NASA had a look. The pattern matches exactly the stars in the sky on that very day in that vey year. Only they are in reverse (the perspective is from above, not below).
- These tilmas are made from organic material that rots away in a few years. Still today (it happened in 1531) it is perfectly preserved without anything been done to it (and there have been scientific analyses).
- In the second half of the 20th century some clown put a bomb in front of it. The huge metal cross (in close proximity) was bent double by the explosion. The tilma was covered by a glass sheet. The glass sheet shattered into thousands of shards. Normally these high velocity shards of glass would rip a tilma to shreds. Nothing...