I think you have to stand back and just let people do what they want and resist the urge to regulate everything in everyone's lives.

I don't have any interest in child beauty pageants, but don't want them regulated till they become a reflection of the most ardent opponent's values. Where does that end? If we subscribe to the lowest common denominator on every issue, every event, every activity .. why, we'd have pretty well nothing left as there is always going to be someone who doesn't agree.

Sheesh, get a life and stay out of other people's lives.

"It’s easy to be outraged" .. for you perhaps, not for everyone, in maturity comes an acceptance of things other people want to do or be.

"In condoning beauty pageants we are saying it is okay to judge and reward our children for their physical beauty"

Yes, we are and as a society we allow people to make choices.

It's ok to recognize beauty and to do it in whatever way you want to, if you don't like it or disagree, fine, but don't try to regulate it.

I'm happy for you to have this view, and do not suggest we regulate the views of people like yourself.

After all, it is free country .. some people don't like F1 Grand Prix racing, which I completely do not understand, but I am tolerant to their views.

I agree that regulation is not the answer to everything, but I think you should reconsider your use of the word 'choice' when it comes to 3-10 year old girls being entered into beauty pageants.
Agreed- physical beauty is a competition, but it's got nothing to do with skill or talents or training. You either have it or you don't. And most of us don't. How sad if your four year never wins the trophy. It's not like sport where you can say to the child- well perhaps footy/cricket/swimming isn't your thing, or maybe you're not interested, or maybe you didnt train enough, or maybe you'll grow up to be stronger and faster. No you have to say to her- you are not pretty enough, you are physically inferior, that's why you didn't win. We all eventually find out where we stand in the hierarchy of beauty. Generally in early adolescence and it's usually a disappointment, particularly for girls who are constantly told to measure up to a standard that perhaps 1per cent reach. Why make that disappointment earlier than it needs to be?

Actually - it might be sadder if your 4 year old kept winning trophies for being pretty- but ended up a rather ordinary adult. Adjustment issues. Anyhoo- I think we should probably get all those beauty pageant girls into go - karting. Future formula 1 drivers? ;p

"The Victorian Government is ignoring the concerns of thousands of people who want to see the regulation of child beauty pageants not only in Victoria, but nationally and internationally."

Read that as "The Victorian Government is ignoring us busy bodies that want everyone to behave as we think they should. We don't have any justification, but have lined up some professionals that are just as anal as us."

Come on love, we reward people for being smart, we make them professors & pay them twice what they are worth.

We reward people foe being able to sing, particularly if they are sexy.

We reward people for being able to run fast, or kick a ball, or punch each other hard.

We reward people for being good salesman.

Why the hell shouldn't we reward them for being good looking, & extroverted?

They are going to have to learn that life is not fair sometime, why not while young, when they can use that knowledge to best advantage. Maybe it will help them to grow up, something some others have trouble doing.

But Chandralekha please drop that idea. Formuls 1 racing is dangerous enough, without adding a bunch of silly little girls, who will want to use the rear view mirror, to check their makeup.

How child pageantry isn't already listed as both a form of child abuse, but also a form of child labor/exploitation/slavery (they're being coerced into dedicating their time working for free on behalf of adults), I don't know.
It is also an obvious link to very poor mental and emotional development to raise young children to feel they have to make sacrifices to their lives simply to satisfy other people's vanity, and only know a world where other kids their age are not potential friends- only competition that will get in the way of the goal of being the best (and thus the justification for their suffering to pay off), and seeing themselves only as something to be promoted, compared and rated 1-10, and only worthwhile when they are awarded first prize.

I do find it quite amusing that some people are tying laws to prevent child abuse to the 'nanny state'- quite telling actually.
And thanks to them, come an issue where government regulation might actually BE too far, people are going to look on the anti-regulation crowds and think they're the same kind of people who think child pageantry should be protected.

hazza, deliberately corrupts child beauty competitions to be the same as child abuse, then accuses people of defending child abuse

Quite telling actually when you see people being deliberately deceptive and manipulative to set up straw man arguments to insist on their own point of view and everyone else must be demonized.

The usual hysteria of the left, demanding everything be regulated or you're defending child abuse.

Thankfully the community see these pageants as something parents do as a bit of fun and dress up and it is nowhere near the emergency that some of the hysterical alarmists make out, but then, they exaggerate everything .. so no matter.

I don't have daughters. But I understand from people that do, that girls like dressing up. They prefer it, I am told, to playing football.

So it would seem to me to be as equally ok for the kids to play football, and for one side to win, as it is for the girls to play dress-up, and see who wins.

On a slightly darker note, I suspect that the wowsers here might be those who see sexuality in everything, even in little girls playing dress-up. As such, wanting to ban it says far more about them than they might otherwise feel inclined to reveal.

Parents will screw their kids up in any manner of ways, and I don't see the significance of a pushy parent in this area as opposed to some of our olympic swimmers or nearly olympic swimmers.

I love those glorious stories of dedication in the pool from age 8, swiming 50 laps before school. No mention of the pushy parents until they start obstructing media access to tennis prodigies.

Maybe parents of chess champions are the only blameless parents, as pushing a kids natural mental abilities for fame and fortune is ok it seems.

The Physics professor is no more vain or well rounded than the swimwear model. Nobody gets upset that nerds aren't valued for their looks and charisma!

Maybe we should ban any competition where natural Allah given talents are used.

Actually we should just ban competition, as parents can be pushy. But then we must also ban the not pushy enough parents who don't send their gorgous girls to Little Miss Springfield, but also neglect to feed their kids, or don't make them eat vegetables. Not being pushy about vegetables is actually encouraging a more independent child who doesn't put their health above all else and wont become fitness obsessed.

And to think they threw stones at that guy because he entered his daughter in a full contact Karate competition. He should be a gender-feminist poster man! At least he wasn't shekshualising her. Unless you're into girls fighting that is.

I'm with Pericles. Again. Dirty minds man!

Should we ban K-Mart catalogs? I hope not because I always suggest new Bras for the Missus, and do detailed analysis while interrupting her enmjoyment of some soap on TV.(he lure of free lingerie overrides her objection to my perving).

Hmmm. Soap... Box! Seems fitting here.

Hahaha, I said Box!

I think we really need to stop politicising children.

So feminists don't like the fact that men like to look at beautiful women. So what. Do we argue that the chavs and pikey males of society have been disenfranchised because they didn't succeed at sport or acedemia? No, we just berate them for being laga louts.

But for a women who isn't pretty, it's considered some virtiolic male conspiracy, and the world must change!

Men value what they value, and so do women. Looks are important to men. If a woman can get more money from her looks good on her. If a guy can get more sex by being a rock star or a rugby player, nobody cares.

Why is making the most of your intelligence not a sin but making the most of your looks illicits cries of vainty!

'Beauty isn’t a talent or skill they can practice, enhance or improve. No other competition for children compares.'

I call Bu11sit! They don't rate pictures. Dancing is a skill, communicating is a skill, so too posture, poise, make-up, dress sense.

'It's not like sport where you can say to the child- well perhaps footy/cricket/swimming isn't your thing, or maybe you're not interested, or maybe you didnt train enough, or maybe you'll grow up to be stronger and faster.'

Yeah it is! Ugly ducklings grow into swans. The skills can be worked on.

'you have to say to her- you are not pretty enough, you are physically inferior'
Do you? Doesn't sound very tactful.

I'd never consider telling a kid who comes second in the 100m 'you are not fast enough, you are physically inferior to that kid who beat you'.

Maybe it's the messages of parents that are the problem not the competition.

Amicus- considering that I elaborated why the situations can make a negative impact on children (and why it is comparable with child labor), it's hardly a strawman.
Meanwhile, you haven't presented a single explanation of the contrary, so are hardly one to accuse of making empty accusations.

Pericles- don't look at me, I never even needed to bother throwing the "sexualization" accusation in, because it doesn't need to be mentioned, and in complete absence Pageants are still a lifestyle detriment.
The difference between kids playing dress up, and pageants, is that in voluntary play-dress up, the children decide whether to play dress up (not their parents), what they dress up as (not the parents), who they are dressing up for (not random strangers their parents are trying to show off to, or spite), the stakes of what and how they dress up are (usually none at all, as opposed to being devalued by strangers in notable judgement positions), and most importantly, when they decide dressing up is boring and decide they'd rather do something else (not their parents).

This analogy would be similar to a kid's lemonade stand. Plenty of children love setting up lemonade stands and selling lemonade. Now, imagine if their parents insisted they HAD to spend part of their free time selling lemonade, expected and trained to haggle prices with customers, and were expected to turn a set minimum profitable margin on their weekly sales.
That would be the difference between children's dress up games, and parents making them attend child pageants.

King Hazza, I doubt many of the parents 'force' their daughters to compete in Beauty pageants.

I believe that if they really didn't want to do it, they could easily mess everything up for themselves when on stage!
They could just refuse to smile :)

There doesn't appear to be any more emotional harm involved in this sort of 'encouragement' than that of 'forcing' kids to go to churches etc and pretend to pray to mythical Gods, surely?

I think you guys missed my point- yes we do reward people for being skilled at intellectual or physical pursuits. Skill is made up of not only natural talent but dedication and quality training. Or if you put it another way- you can have natural musical ability- but you won't be a concert pianist without 10000 hours of practice. Let's face it, beauty has little to do dedication or quality training- you either have it or you don't. Yes, yes, people will say it's about 'personality' or 'good grooming' or laughably 'modeling skills' but we're all big and ugly enough to know the truth- physical beauty is 99 per cent due to the genetic lottery (and 99 percent of us lose). Seeing these odds it would be much wiser to encourage children into pursuits that require genuine skill (sport, art, science) - if the kid turns out to be a looker then she won't need frou frou beauty pageants to help her. If they turn out average on the beauty scale well they'll have something else to be proud of. I'm not calling for a ban on beauty pageants - in fact I see them as a perfect lesson in just how stupid some parents can be.

Are you ugly, deaf, or just not listening chandra? What have you got about beauty?

Every thing you have mentioned comes first from a natural ability, talent. So does beauty, what can't you get about that? Why should beauty be less valued than any of the others?

I may be small minded, but I get much more pleasure from watching an attractive poised lady walk down the street, than I do watching a mussel bound escapee from the Gabba, or some bearded professor. Strangely, I would not cross the street to watch little girls play grown up.

I really don't mind if you prefer the beard, the abs, or none of the above, what ever turns you on, & at least I won't try to stop your preference from happening.

I am a Pageant Mum with an amazing daughter. She is bright,funny, caring, considerate and beautiful. Most importantly she is a very well adjusted 15 year old girl. She was never going to be the fastest runner, she will tell you herself if you put her in a room with a ball she will be hospitalised in 30 minutes. She is never going to have a record deal, or play in an orchestra. Pageants are her thing its where she shines. What right do you have to say that she cant do that.
I consider us to have a excellent Mother/Daughter relationship. Pageants, along with her other hobbies, give us the opportunity to enjoy quality time together. I am sure you agree that any time spent with a teenager gives you the opportunity to chat about their lives and find out what is truely going on. I have friends that would love a relationship similar to ours with their teenage daughters.
She is self confident and happy. She has no body issues and is happy in her own skin.
In addition to Pageants, my daughter also volunteers weekly at the Riding School for the Disabled and is an Assistant Coach for a Disabled Cheerleading Team. I am very very proud of who she is and what she has achieved.
No matter what you try and say against Pageants, I know that they have helped shape who she is today.

chandralekha, " Anyhoo- I think we should probably get all those beauty pageant girls into go - karting. Future formula 1 drivers? ;p" is the best comment I've read in ages!

Suzie- believe me, it is easier said than done. That would depend on if the child actually had an outright emotionally distant relationship with their parents and could care not a single bit about their feelings, their rules, praise or scorn.
Some children grow up in environments where parents are more domineering, and equate disappointing their parents to being a failure, or even a bad person.
Especially when the activity they set you up to is mostly the activity you do in your time, and thus you have little else to measure or define yourself for- or even do.
Adding to that, dedicating time to perfect the pageant-performance, takes time away from other developmental activities, play, and skill development; which also reduces the child's ability to actually acquire any new skills or recreational pursuits.
The largest downside for a pageant is that unless the participant can move up constantly to the next 'age group' and eventually get into a modelling career- the whole thing becomes a wasted investment.

And that is also why, Hasbeen- there is a problem with that discourse you mentioned. It is one thing to only be attracted to someone who is attractive- it is another to make someone give up time to be raised to do nothing but TRY to be attractive, when they might ultimately not be anyway- and in absense of any other development, consider themselves simply nothing that the only thing they 'know' how to do they are intrinsically not.

This whole thread falls back on what some kids enjoy doing for a bit of fun, and parents then nagging or coercing them to dedicate themselves to it as a profession.
If a kid puts on a doctor's outfit and plays the board game 'operation'- would you then make your kids spend every afternoon rehearsing the human anatomy, latin language and properties of blood circulation, so that they will definitely be a surgeon when they grow up?
No- and that is actually a comparatively good investment, compared to pageants and talents quests.

Sam, most F1, and other professional drivers, funny enough, all start in karting ..

I know a Porsche factory driver in Germany, he started in karting, was never going to be good enough to get sponsorship in major racing, so went into factory driving .. loves it, gets to drive bid bad ass Porsches most days

don't get me started on envy!

"Raised to do nothing but try to be attractive" Pageants aren't every weekend, We dont spend our entire time practicing for Pageant.
Most of my daughters weekends are spent at the Riding Stables. In the run up to Pageant we will have a few shopping trips for dresses and costume fittings its all part of the fun. Routines are worked on for about 10 minutes a day. A day or two before Pageant she has a hair cut, her nails done and a spray tan.
I believe my daughter is very lucky, she has a huge friend group, from her school friends, Cheerleading friends, Horse Riding friends and Pageant friends from all over the world, who she keeps in contact with via email, skype and facebook.

"Takes time away from other developmental activities, play, and skill development; which also reduces the child's ability to actually acquire any new skills or recreational pursuits."
So Horse Riding, Cheerleading and Voluntary work isn't enough for you. I wont mention the social skills obtained during Pageant.

"The largest downside for pageant is that unless the participant can move up constantly to the next 'age group' and eventually get into a modelling career- the whole thing becomes a wasted investment."...... sorry but I find that laughable, every minute spent with my daughter is a worthy investment. Career wish what she actually wants to do is study Occupational Therapy and open a Riding School specializing in Rehabilitation for people with Disablities.

Following the recent Universal Royalty Pageant in Melbourne, we decided to stay in Melbourne for a couple of extra days and do some sight seeing as we had never been there before. We enjoyed time at the Melbourne Zoo, The Tutankhamun Exhibition, we saw a show, met lots of lovely people. All things my daughter would never have done had we not been in Melbourne that week

First I should own to disliking the idea of child beauty pageants for my own children. However, if you ban pageants you may as well ban sporting events or academic competitions where there is a risk of dodgy parents placing ridiculous pressures on kids to win. Better to ban dodgy parents instead.

How far should governments go in deciding what is best for families and based on whose moral dictate.

I have met equally as many in the academic world who push kids to be the best in their PARENT'S chosen field. There may be an argument for an age limit in beauty pageants as there is in some sports.

The driving argument in banning pageants is not about sexualisation. It is more about the lifestyle that includes a procession of child beauty pageants possibly placing undue pressures on a kid. The idea of child beauty pageants might not sit well with many people's idea of childhood and I reckon there is merit in that view, however we cannot make decisions for every parent or family based on our own beliefs, unless there is a real risk of harm. Are there any statistics on the long term effects of child beauty pageant regulars?

One only hopes that the children get some say in their hobbies and interests.

The bad press for pageants isn't helped by the fact that many of the girls interviewed are perceived as precocious, many presenting a faux image of maturity but it is distorted maturity that is practised rather than felt. Is this ultimately bad? Parents decide.

King you have it so wrong. You only have to look at a bunch of our aging beauties to see that being pretty is a short term thing.

Being strikingly attractive, at least for a lady, is a matter of self belief.

I have a couple of cousins who were always invisible ladies. Nice people, good mothers, good workers, the type we need in Oz, but never actually notice. The type who don't have much confidence, & would eat worms rather than speak in a public forum.

Then in her mid 40s one of them screwed up all her courage, & went into party plan marketing, for a small income, & later talked the other into joining her.

To start with I have seen her almost sick with nerves before a party, but she persevered. She found she was OK, & her confidence grew. Over time she studied the more successful ladies in the group, & she became quite good.

Now she has a hair style, [that suits her] rather than a hair cut, she has developed a dress style, does a bit of exercise, & knows how to use minimal, but effective make up.

It has been amazing to watch both of them develop poise & grace with their confidence.

From invisible, they are now 2 striking ladies, people notice. They have not been to plastic surgeons, they simply shine with self confidence, & value themselves more highly now. People do seemingly take us at our own valuation of ourselves.

I can't see much wrong with teaching young girls to value themselves

People used to defend organised cock fighting. 'No one can tell me what to do with my cock', 'my cock was bred for fighting', 'my cock wants to do it', but it was recognised for the cruel and exploitative competition it was.
Young children pitted against each other in a beauty competition might not literally fight to the death for the crown, but the messages about beauty delivered to pageant entrants (winners and losers) can have a detrimental and lifelong impact.
I assume beauty pageant defenders would also think it OK for employers to have a 'beauty score' box on the job application form? What's so wrong with restricting the 'beauty' component in pageants to those over 16? Who would miss it (apart from pageant organi$er$)? Let kids get up and sing, dance, parade around - whatever they want to do, but don't let them be judged on their physical features. It's one thing to teach your child deportment, grooming and social skills, it's another entirely to engage them in competition based on physical features that has NOTHING to do with talent.

Good points, Catherine.

My youngster took part in a concert recently. His troupe did so well and he did a solo for which he was roundly congratulated. It occurred to me afterward that his feeling of accomplishment wasn't derived from any form of competition, merely from achievement.
And, as you point out, competition to display one's prowess or talent is a completely different ball game to being judged on physical attributes.

For some reason dousing a child with fake tan and tarting them up like a showgirl at such a tender age for no other reason than be judged for their looks, doesn't sit right with me...even if they do have heaps of cheer-leading friends.

Thanks for the link Houellebecq. I personally don't have a problem with girls engaging in martial arts/combat sports or any other competition based on skill/talent/stamina (that can all be enhanced with practice). If they were scored on physical beauty, I'd certainly have something to say! (BTW, no, I don't have ugly kids. lol!) Have you seen this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPLWKBWkn3s Hilarious.

@Poirot: Yes - kids will make friends whatever they do, but I have tried to imagine what the conversation/pressure might be like when a six year old beauty queen has a friend over for a play.

So Pageants are now being compared to cock fighting? Most people also said the world was flat - thankfully this wasn't agreed by all!

As for 6 year old pageant girls having friends over for a playdate- from my experience - they usually spend a few minutes trying on crowns and sashes then wander off into the garden to play on the swing set!

Pageant Mum- your daughter is 15; which is essentially a young adult (children potentially start being able to think like adults a few years earlier).
Thus it shouldn't be compared to younger age pageants.
Out of curiosity when did she start participating?

It makes a difference- as dedicating time in the earlier years of one's life (try 6-9) to any individual competitive system, starts to define a person- and may prove an artificial factor in repelling one from other things, or disallowing time to develop early skills to feel confident in them as their peers to want to participate.

Having the free time on the other hand to try these things early without committed events- and still decide they aren't the person's cup of tea and they would prefer pageants at a slightly older age is different.

(and I'm saying this as someone who hated sports and the usual 'traditional' activities anyway and wouldn't have missed them- but had been made to participate in a handful of competitions that did reflect things I could do well- and hated the experience and lost time I had to take out of my life to attend these things).

I admit that she started her Pageant life later than some, but she would tell you herself if they were around when she was younger she would have been front of the queue. She would have never forgiven me if I had known about them and not let her take part.
She began horseriding at 4 (pretty much as soon as she could sit upright in a saddle unaided) and Cheerleading at 7 with a break from 10-12 due to ill health. She has also tried Gymnastics, Drama, Dance even Brownies none of which she enjoyed so she stopped.
Knowing my daughter as I do, and knowing her personality I can wholeheartedly say she would have loved every single second of Pageants when she was younger.
I strongly believe our childhood is not only about learning its also about going out and trying new things, having fun and making memories for our adulthood. She is going to have some fantastic stories to tell her kids and grandkids when she is old and wrinkly.

@PageantMum, the things you describe your daughter enjoying about pageants are outside of any concern I have with them. The question is, would she have enjoyed them any less had the judges not 'scored' her on physical beauty? I just can't imagine any little girl saying 'mummy, I really want to stand next to my friends in a competition and have some strangers tell us which one is the most beautiful girl/brightest eyes/prettiest smile.' Win or lose, what positive message can possibly be gained from that type of competition? Do you have more than one daughter? Would you tell one she's more beautiful than the other?

Catherine you leave me no choice bit to observe that it appears to me that you have an extremely unhealthy fear of someone being, or being judged as beautiful.

This I believe is at least as dangerous as those who place excessive value in beauty.

I think a look at your value system would be at least as well advised for you, as for those you are denigrating.

Now there’s an extreme assumption Hasbeen! Just because I am concerned about children being pitted against each other and judged on beauty, I must have a ‘fear of someone being judged as beautiful’? Yikes, I must get me some therapy! ;) Appreciating that there are people more genetically endowed than others in the looks department isn’t a problem at all, turning that into a competition for children - especially in a beauty obsessed culture - is (there’s a whole other topic for conversation around the beauty ‘ideal’ for little girls in pageants!).
I will assume then that you don’t see a problem with standing your two daughters/nieces side by side and telling one she’s more beautiful than the other. Would you give one extra pocket money for being the prettiest too? What 'value system' is that instilling in children

I think it's a bit disingenuous to say beauty pageants are all just about looks. It's like saying Rugby League is only about muscle. Sure muscle helps a lot, but skill comes into play, and skill can beat muscle.

If it is all about looks, why don't they just rate photos and save everyone the time and hassle? Because there are skills involved! Not just presentation skills, and anyway the fashion industry and makeup *artisits* of the world I am sure see it as a skill.

As in the martial arts, there are issues about self presentation, confidence. There are public speaking skills, posture, an ethos of self confidence. There are lessons like in sport of learning you don't always win, shaking hands with the enemy, accepting the subjective nature of the referees, losing and trying better to win next time.

You paint this picture of it being just about rating looks, if that were the case it would take 2 minutes.

I agree with Hasbeen you seem threatened about looks even being a part of the competition. Kids already know looks are part of life, everytime an adult says how pretty a girl is and how strong a boy is.

This is an idealogical feminist opposition but I'm sick of ideology interfering with kids activities. It's ruining sport for a start; 'Everyone gets a prize' is not what sport is about, and it takes away from some of the lessons, and turns it into a farce. Luckily kids can sniff out a farce quick smart.

If it was all about looks, the same kid would win every time. I'm sure in reality it shows that a beaming character and carying oneself with confidence, originality in performance, can go a long way.

Supposedly 'sekshualising' kids is no different to *politicising* everything kids do, making a big deal about gender in toys and clothes and any innocent activity kids get into. Lets face it all kids look beautiful with the nutrician and dentistry we have these days.

I bet you read your kids politically correct bedtime stories in all seriousness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politically_Correct_Bedtime_Stories

Cinderella

A parody of the Cinderella fairy tale, with a distinctly feminist and anti-lookist twist. The ending is completely different from the original fairy tale.

Cinderella's "Fairy Godperson" (who is male) reluctantly agrees to dress her up for the ball. However, she is so attractive in her impractical shoes, clothing and makeup, that every male in the ballroom goes mad for her and a brawl begins that eventually results in the death of every last one of them. The women, jealous of Cinderella's ability to make men go mad for her beauty, at first turn on her; however, the clock strikes midnight, and she is transformed back to her peasant garb—and is so happy to be in comfortable clothes again, that the other women decide they're now jealous of her comfort. Instead of killing her, however, they remove their own corsets and dresses and impractical shoes and dance around in their "shifts and bare feet". Covering up the real reason behind the men's deaths, they take over the kingdom and open a clothing company that produces only comfortable and practical clothing for women.

Little Red Riding Hood

Based on the popular fairy tale of the same name, this parody includes as its main themes mocking the idea of anti-"speciesism" and the more radical branches and concepts of feminism (such as using the spelling "womyn" instead of "women" throughout, a pattern that is repeated in other stories in the book), and is one of the several stories in which the ending is completely altered from the original fairy tale.

The woodsman (who saves Little Red Riding Hood and her grandmother in the most well-known versions of the tale) ends up beheaded by the grandmother, who leaps from the wolf's mouth of her own accord after a "stirring" moralizing speech from Red. This comes after of course Red Riding Hood has labeled him as "sexist" and "speciesist" for deciding to try to save Red Riding Hood by killing the wolf. The wolf, Red Riding Hood, and her grandmother then form an "alternative household" together.

'Do you have more than one daughter? Would you tell one she's more beautiful than the other?'

Is that what happened to you Cathy?

That from a mother of course would hurt, but from a random referee, not much more than being penalised for a high tackle that was around the shoulder, or being given out Caught Behind when you KNOW you didn't knick it. Such an injustice is part of life. Sometimes you don't get picked for the rep team, even when you think you're good enough and other's agree. This is part of sport and good lessons for LIFE!

You cant protect them from everything, and you SHOULDN'T.

Men are valued on strength, women on looks. This is our culture, for better or worse. Another part of our culture is that beauty is only skin deep. Yet another is confident people are sexy. Another is girls like playing dress up. How exciting having dress ups on a massive scale, that you can do with your mum and other girls and their mums.

In the end, if you want to give your kids gender neutral toys and reprimand grandparents when they say how beautiful your little girl is or tell your little boy that boys don't cry and be a big strong little man, then that's your business.

Other parents enjoy accepting the culture around them and giving their kids the best tools to roll with the punches, and participate in activities they enjoy. People are differnt, and some are less sensitive and some enjoy exhibitionism and pampering themseleves, and enjoying this time with their daughters, and passing on their knowledge like this akin to a Dad bringing his son fishing to barbarically kill another animal.

To each his (or her) own.

Why should your political beliefs rob others of something they enjoy, and why are your parenting beliefs to be applied to other people's children?

Who can honestly say that by keeping the kids from competing that they will be free from comparison on physical attributes. This happens every day in the school yard, and in life. Those in the competition are there because they want to be, and all generally have a good time.

What a bunch of precious mums. I think you are all projecting your own political views onto the wishes of the children. No one is forced to compete.

"I admit that she started her Pageant life later than some, but she would tell you herself if they were around when she was younger she would have been front of the queue. She would have never forgiven me if I had known about them and not let her take part. "
Pageantmum- believe me, it was still for the best.
Consider that at her current age, she could easily pick up several hobbies and manage a pageant- at a younger age, being able to keep on top of the expectations she may find easy now, is a lot more difficult, and may well have compromised her ability to engage in the other hobbies she does now- and as such, becomes more invested solely in the pageant.

Shadow- the difference between judgement in society- regarding someone in the first years of primary school and a panel of judges in a pageant;
1- at very young ages, judgement is not as explicit, and not as strongly emphasized on you individually. In fact, it is actually against school rules to single out students or make remarks about their appearance- which means in the very least that when someone does evaluate another, the student knows they other person is out of line- rather than telling her she fell short of the standards she is actually trying to achieve.
2- nobody in the school yard is particularly invested in being the best outside of school hours, as opposed to fitting in. No wasted efforts for not being number 1, and no prize for being number 1.
3- more time outside the system of judgement to get beyond it
4- most importantly- more judges- differences of opinions is more apparent.

King Hazza - interesting that you think you know what is best from my daughter - when you know nothing about her at all.

And Catherine - I have 3 children, 2 daughters and a son. I accept that Pageants aren't right for every child. There is no way in the world my eldest daughter would have entered pageants; not because she is any less beautiful than her sister, purely because her personality is very different, she would have been horrified to have been on that stage.
Of course, I would never tell one they were more beautiful than the other, as I would never tell one she was more intelligent or a better dancer than the other.

She isn't out drinking or trawling the streets at all hours of the night getting into trouble. My daughter is kind and considerate, she is a fun loving, gentle 15 year old girl who happens to enjoy getting on stage in a beautiful gown with her hair and makeup done. She then gets off stage takes off her crown (if she is lucky enough to win one) and puts it away then leaves her clothes in a heap on the floor like any other 15 year old and gets on with her life.

Pageantmum, thanks for your honesty. It’s interesting that you wouldn’t tell your daughters who’s the better dancer let alone best looking, yet you’ll allow her to be judged against an adult contrived beauty ideal by a panel of judges. I should also point out that I do understand how much fun the dressing up/performance aspects of pageants can be.

Houellebecq, clearly your problem is more with ‘idealistic feminists’ than genuine concern for how beauty competition may/not impact on children/society. Historically beauty competition has targeted girls mostly, however as the beauty industry now has its sights on the male market with an increase in male cosmetics and surgical procedures to fit the ‘ideal',that will change. Rgrdless of gender, the message‘compare and despair’/’looks=currency’ is one no child should have foistered upon them. Sure, children choose to dress up, perform..but they don’t seek to compete based on looks.

You make many assumptions in an attempt to categorise and dismiss my concern. I'm very happy in my own skin, there has never been any beauty competition in my family, and I don't have ugly kids! Sorry to disappoint. Best fight the ball and not the wo/man.

I've never said beauty pageants are ALL about looks(although some categories are), nor that every child should win a prize, nor that there's a problem with competitions that teach children deportment/public speaking/confidence. My 'issue' is with scoring a child on their physical beauty. That's it.

Even if it's only 10%, when two girls are coming a draw in all other sections, the prize will go to the one judges deem the 'prettiest'. Sure, beauty judgement occurs in society (especially where increasingly narrow beauty ideals are 'sold'), but it's not a healthy comp to engage young children in. We know that from today’s myriad of body image issues and disorders affecting young people as a result of 'beauty focus' culture. Justify it all you like, I can't see any positive coming from putting a child in a beauty competition that tells them they don't (or do) cut it in the looks department - either for the individual child or society in general.

Unless you're a pageant promoter or services provider, a beauty industry interest or cosmetic surgeon hoping to cash in on the next wave of customers with image dissatifaction, I don't see why you would be too worried about having the beauty component removed from pageants for children. Seriously, WHO is that going to impact negatively upon?

BTW, your comment ‘Men are valued on strength, women on looks. This is our culture, for better or worse’, speaks a thousand words. If challenging that ‘cultural’ dogma by rejecting the teaching of that to children means I’m an idealistic feminist, then I am one, and then some!

Catherine.
I will start by saying it has been a pleasure discussing this topic with you (and I genuinly mean that) This is a subject that we could discuss for 100 years and never agree on.
I really dont understand how you think that telling someone that another person showed more grace and personality on that particular day would have a greater affect on anyone than a dancer who is beaten repeatedly in competition by a better dancer. Just because someone wins a particular pageant, does not guarantee them winning the next.
And before you ask my eldest daughter was a dancer, she was quite good too, but not quite good enough to win - she was defeated repeatedly by the same girl, who went on to dance professionally. I would say surely that would be worse than occasionally winning.
Regards
Debbie

Wow you've softened your stance Catherine!

From 'pulling the pin', to now just the 10% category that is based solely on looks.

'Seriously, WHO is that going to impact negatively upon?'

Certainly not me, definately pageant mum and her daughter, but that's not the question now is it. The question is...

Why should your political beliefs rob others of something they enjoy, and why are your parenting beliefs to be applied to other people's children?

Beauty is part of life, those that are afraid of it want it abolished, but those who are comfortable with it see it as just that, a part of life, and a part of a person, something that fades, and not something so threatening as not to be celebrated. It's actually the feminist here that gives attention/power to beauty; The very act of attempting to place it as some taboo topic, vitriolically opposing any celebration of it and framing it as some ubiquitous all consuming tragedy of mankind. All the while not realising this Myopia is not with 'society' or 'culture' (Of which beauty is only but a bit player), but inside the individual feminist.

This ideological bent about beauty is really just an angry vitriolic world view, I think based on some resentment of the fact men enjoy looking at beautiful women. There doesn't seem to be any corresponding angry vitriolic world view from any ideology about men being valued by women on toughness or physical strength, or valued on their provider earning power. Nobody wants to ban The Apprentice, nobody wants to ban gymnasiums or sports cars.

'You make many assumptions in an attempt to categorise and dismiss my concern. I'm very happy in my own skin, there has never been any beauty competition in my family, and I don't have ugly kids! Sorry to disappoint.'

Oh no dissapointment here. The prickly defensive tone and wordy justification speaks volumes.

BTW In your idealistic feminist (and then some) fervor, to what degree do we widen this 'narrow' definition of physical beauty? So wide that it includes ugly people?

Haha everyone gets a prize!

'I can't see any positive coming from putting a child in a beauty competition that tells them they don't (or do) cut it in the looks department - either for the individual child or society in general.'

'don't cut it in the looks department'? From one competition with a handful of people. Is it necessary for every little girl to think they are THE prettiest girl on the earth?

As I said,

'from a random referee, not much more than being penalised for a high tackle that was around the shoulder, or being given out Caught Behind when you KNOW you didn't knick it. Such an injustice is part of life. Sometimes you don't get picked for the rep team, even when you think you're good enough and other's agree. This is part of sport and good lessons for LIFE!'

That you think this should be so traumatic, for a girl to think that 3 other girls are prettier than them IN THE OPINION of a few judges that are STRANGERS, only highlights my point above. That portrays a very skewed and 'unhealthy' attitude to beauty. This isn't 'society', this is internal to the individual.

Society doesn't put such a premimum on looks YOU apparently do. Just as a parent can console a young boy who doesn't 'make it' in an athletic persuit based on a judgement of his abilities, so too in a beauty contest.

You have conceded 10% is about solely looks, and that there are other skills and benefits. What if the judge says that they need a bigger or faster player to play in the rep team? What's the big difference.

Man, it's any parents job to de-brief their kids and help them deal with a necessary character building part of life such as this.

Sheesh Houellebecq! You’ve gone from saying it's a parent's right to impose beauty competitions on their child, to them being ‘a NECESSARY character building part of life’?! Necessary for whom? What part of the character does it ‘build’? “Here you go kid, you’re not pretty enough – life sux like that – you might as well get used to it.”

You contradict yourself – in one breath you’re bagging out feminists who (according to you) want to dispel the princess myth, but in the next breath you want kids to know they’re not pretty enough to be the princess! Why should kids be judged by any adult beauty ideal (narrow or otherwise)?

An individual parent’s right to enter their own child in such a competition becomes public interest when the nature of that competition causes harm and affects others. That harm might not be as obvious to some because it’s not visable like, for example, a black eye, but emotional harm can have lifelong impacts. As I said, I work with teen girls who feel life is one big beauty pageant and they don’t like it. Why are you so resistant to investigating the need for regulation of beauty contests for children? No-one’s asking you to relinquish your ‘perve of the K-mart catalogues’, or to resist your ‘manly desire’ for appreciating a beautiful woman when you see one. I think your irrational fear of feminism (equality) is hindering your ability to recognise that beauty competition may not be in the best interests of the child. Teaching kids to ‘roll with the punches’ is one thing, teaching them to conform to an adult contrived beauty standard and then be judged by that, is another.
(continued below)...

My position hasn’t softened at all. Whether it’s 10% (in some cases) or 100% (Most Beautiful/Most Photogenic/Brightest Eyes, etc), ‘Pull the Pin on BEAUTY pageants for children’ is just that. If there wasn’t a ‘beauty’ section it wouldn’t be called a ‘beauty pageant’ now would it?! It’s not Pull the Pin on talent pageants! BTW, my wordy response would have been even wordier had I not had to edit to fit, and it’s not a ‘prickly tone’! I just find it tiresome when people try to categorise others rather than dealing with the issue. I considered not responding to your personal questions but thought you’d then draw your own (probably wrong) conclusions! Happy to agree to disagree with you.

@Debbie: thank you – and ditto! Appreciate you sharing your name too. We are all just ‘people’ and part of the same community. All the best to you and your daughter.

'You’ve gone from saying it's a parent's right to impose beauty competitions on their child'

Yes it is

'to them being ‘a NECESSARY character building part of life’'

Um, I said failing, or not always coming first, is part of life. Competing is part of life, and why is it taboo to compete with looks but not in other natural attributes?

'Why should kids be judged by any adult beauty ideal (narrow or otherwise)? '

What's adult about it? Beauty is beauty. Athleticism is athleticism. Coordination is coordination. Intellect is intellect. Sports involve subjective rules and judgement by adults.

Do you propose banning the HSC because pushy parents may lead to suicidal teens. Are adult coaches not to select representitive teams. Should we ban any sport where there are judges like Surfing and Diving or dancing/Ice skating?

By making beauty out to be so important, *you're* enforcing on children for the first time the political adult concept that beauty could be central to their worth; Something powerful or shameful, something adults are being dishonest about.

'Why are you so resistant to investigating the need for regulation of beauty contests for children?'

You just said you wanted 100% of them nipped in the bud, not regulated. You keep vacillating to creep out of each corner. It's regulation and 10% sometimes, it's nip it in the bud and 100% other times.

'. I think your irrational fear of feminism (equality) is hindering your ability to recognise that beauty competition may not be in the best interests of the child.'

Um, no. I believe parents know their children and each child is different and who are YOU to judge. I don't see all this agonising about scarring kids who fail to come first at sport or school.

I'm all for equality, just anti victim-feminism. Feminism and equality have little to do with each other.

Why should your political beliefs rob others of something they enjoy, and why are your parenting beliefs to be applied to other people's children?

“Here you go kid, you’re not pretty enough – life sux like that – you might as well get used to it.”

As I said,no parent would be so tactless.

What is the difference between that and...

“Here you go kid, you’re not intelligent/coordinated/athletic enough – life sux like that – you might as well get used to it.”

Nope, in the end, you have not argued effectively why beauty should be treated differently. All one can assume is your ideology says men should be judged on traditional things men have been valued for, but it's emotionally traumatic for women to enter into any form of competition like this.

It's actually very anti-feminist. Girls can do anything it seems, except handle failure in their chosen pursuit. Boys can be judged on macho pursuits like weightlifting and fail, but women are not able to handle being judged on their looks.

Houellebecq:"women are not able to handle being judged"

Got it in one, although it seems to be a diease afflicting only a relatively small portion of the populace. Funnily, mostly the ones with crook heads...

What the? Houellebecq!! My concern is how beauty competition impacts children, I couldn’t care less if men/women want to compete to ‘prove’ they’re Ms or Mr Grand Supreme (or whatever other title they want).

‘What is the difference between that and...“Here you go kid, you’re not intelligent/coordinated/athletic enough – life sux like that – you might as well get used to it.”?‘

(oh! I’m having déjà vu!) The difference is that they’re all things that can be worked on to improve and there’s a definitive goal that levels the playing field. You’d have to be an idiot to not be able to recognise that the majority of marketing messages tells (girls in particular) that to be happy/successful/valued they should look a particular way. Using beauty as a ‘competition’ amongst children has the potential to damage their self-esteem and body image in a way skills/talent based competition doesn’t. It’s very naïve to think that a parent telling a child she is beautiful (after she's been formally judged as 'not enough') will be enough to restore her belief that she is. If that were the case, body image induced eating disorders wouldn’t exist, and there wouldn’t be such a big beauty indu$try (including beauty competitions) in the first place. Beauty has been commodified in a way that intelligence/coordination/althleticism hasn’t. Like I said, the only reason anyone should feel threatened about losing the ability to compare the physical ‘beauty’ of children in a competition, is if they have a vested interest.
You might not be able to see the harm, but I do (and it's ok that we don't agree!).

Btw fyi, Definition of FEMINISM. 1. : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes.

However, you may enjoy this one more though! ;) http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Feminism/feminism_is_evil.htm

Over and out.

Catherine "The difference is that they’re all things that can be worked on to improve and there’s a definitive goal that levels the playing field."

I'm not convinced that they can be worked on enough to make a real difference for a lot of people. No matter how much effort you put in generally the ones who are winning have a good dose of natural talent combined with some training.

Looks can also be worked on, accepting that up against natural talent it's hard to win a straight out competition. Personality, an enthusiastic smile, some poise and confidence do wonders for most people's looks.

I do have some cringe factor for what I've seen of the kid's pageants but I suspect that a lot of the objections apply equally to most other kid's competitions and maybe has a lot to do with the way the American pageant mum's come across on TV.

Natural talent is always going to be a big help in life, learning to do the best with what you've got is the bit that can be learned and that's the bit parents can do most about.

R0bert

Why are the tots tarted up like showgirls?

If you fellas are so keen on the notion that being judged on one's looks is okay for little ones, why aren't these children left to look like children.

Yes, I know it's nice to dress up...and in a stage play, Eisteddfod or pantomime situation, dressing up is often required. Dressing up in itself is fun, however, these "little" girls are made up and sexualised way beyond a healthy factor - just to be judged on their so-called "beauty".

I see the harm in do-gooders making rules for other people.

When I was at school, we had a canteen. It served pies. I liked pies, and one of lifes little treats was to be able to buy a pie, normally on a Friday.

I had a balanced diet, and in the hell-hole of school life, a pie is a big highlight to look forward to.

But some do-gooders decided that some kids may not have a balanced diet, so ALL kids were robbed of pies. Parents should decide what their kids eat, not some do-gooder.

As is always the case with these do-gooder initives, the unintended consequence was for truency to thrive as kids decided to skip a few classes before lunch to go to McDonalds. So the poor kiddies with poor nutrician still had poor nutrician, and also missed an extra class at school.

That's just one example of the Nanny state.

Patents know what's best for their kids.

'Using beauty as a ‘competition’ amongst children has the potential to damage their self-esteem and body image in a way skills/talent based competition doesn’t. '

Nope. Beauty is an element of these competitions, as genetic athleticism is an element of sport. You have made no case that genetic athleticism can be more easily compensated for than lack of genetic beauty in the correspoding competitions. In fact I gurantee I could look more beautiful easier than I could run faster.

And if you think the pressure on guys to be tough and earn big bucks (intelligence) isn't as big as beauty is for girls you have a screw loose. Just look at any low social status (or short) male and all the mental and social problems they exhibit.

'body image induced eating disorders' are but a symptom of a need for control. Take away body image and another obsessive compulsion would replace eating in the mentally ill teen.

Accurate definition of Feminism: Everything is mens fault, and women are mere helpless victims in any situation.

Catherine M:"Definition of FEMINISM. 1. : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes."

At present, 2/3 of all tertiary students of Australian origin are female
This is the exact reversal of the situation that obtained in 1972. From http://eprints.qut.edu.au/2127/1/2127.pdf

"In 1973, a newly appointed federal Schools Commission took up equality as a major theme and defined girls as a 'disadvantaged’ group needing special attention. Its comprehensive and groundbreaking report - Girls, School and Society (Schools Commission 1975) -examined ‘the extent of underachievement by women and girls in education and its contribution to the inferior status of women’"

48% of women aged 25-34 have some form of tertiary qualification
37% of men aged 25-34 have some form of tertiary qualification

20% of all trades trainees are female
Of the female trades trainees, 42% are learning to be hairdressers
Of the female tertiary students, most are studying nursing, teaching, humanities or law. Male students are far more broadly and evenly spread across fields, although few study the female-dominated subjects.

As you consider "equality" the paradigm, can we expect to see some agitation to address the obvious inequality in tertiary education that favours women? If not, why not?

Poirot,

Are they sexualised, or is that an adult lens you are applying to children. Sure children will want to look like elders in the culture they live in. Monkey see monkey do.

It just wont cut it for little girls to be told what to wear. I have a 4 year old, and she has a very strong will. She wants to do makeup and wear what mummy wears. Mummy is Hot! But daughter doesn't want to be 'hot' or 'sexual', she just wants to look like mummy.

Who's to say it is wrong. The prudish? Are we to give kids a complex and, as I said, be dishonest about beauty and what it means in society. That's very confusing for a child. Children are observant, and can sniff out a farce. Like little boys can see that touch football is a farce and wnat to tackle each other and be tough.

Is that an adult concept. Are little boys playing tackle footy to be sexually attractive to women?

PS: If a little girl, who has no boobs of course, wants to wear a bikini, I reckon it's a strange message to tell her you cant because that's sexual. Even if you make up some other reason, she sees every woman on the beach in a bikini, and she wants to be a grown up. Denying her this piques an interest about what's so naughty about boobs, and why are adults all uncomfortable all of a sudden. Are my boobs powerful? Anything adults get squeamish about must be really super important!

I think adults being evasive and running to conceal (Something kids have a finely tuned radar for) adult concepts highlights those concepts and gives them great importance, and THAT act is far more unsettling than letting the monkeys see and do. There really is no harm until you introduce the sexual concept by banning it, especially in a cloud of dishonesty.

Anti: It's equality for women; The bonus being positioning women by default as universally disadvantaged, so any attempt at equality where men are disadvantaged should be ignored.

Houellebecq:"It's equality for women; The bonus being positioning women by default as universally disadvantaged, so any attempt at equality where men are disadvantaged should be ignored."

Yes, indeed. I note that Catherine seems to have an approved copy of the script: "Exeunt STAGE LEFT chanting slogans"...

Houellie,

Your point about your daughter just wanting to be like mummy is pertinent. she doesn't want to be "hot", she wants to be like mum.

So obviously, the reasonable extension of that is to whack the kid on a stage next to other tots who just want to look like mum and get someone to tell them who's the most beautiful...I can see that it's a natural progression : )

I mean to say, when mum is looking hot, the first thing she does is rush to a beauty pageant venue and have herself judged. Notwithstanding that (according to Shakespeare - and I agree) that all the world's a stage, such blatant scoring and judging when all the kid wants to do is imitate mum is a little over the top, don't you think?

You guys can't ever argue anything on its merits without introducing your sexist theories, can you...I don't think women are universally disadvantaged....but these tots didn't dream up this stuff for themselves...their mums did it for them for some vicarious thrills.

Just to clarify my term " your sexist theories" - what I meant was your "theories on sexism"...(before either of you gentlemen jump down my throat :)

I might add that in my experience all the blokes I know tend to dance to the tunes played by their wives - even the ones who think they're running the show. It's you fellas who should be agitating for equality.

Poirot "I might add that in my experience all the blokes I know tend to dance to the tunes played by their wives - even the ones who think they're running the show. It's you fellas who should be agitating for equality." - now who's posting theories on sexism ;)

Completely agree though.

R0bert

Yes of course Poirot, happy wife happy life.

I think a lot of women just have an innate talent of making their partner's life so miserable when they don't get what they want, that guys who don't put their foot down end up dying that death by a thousand cuts that is nagging.

More fool them, I don't see it as an equality issue. They should be more assertive.

You seem to think beauty pageants are not a miniaturised version of adult beauty pagents like kids footy is a miniaturised version of adults footy.

Over the top? That's subjective. It's not something that appeals to me. But I understand group pampering and showing off is something women enjoy. That's why they like to get ready for a night out together. It's a saphic thing. That they turn it into a competetive sport just formalises things like boxing formalises some guys need to belt the sh1t out of each other. Which is homoerotic of course:-)

Some men and their sons go hunting and fishing together, to bond over killing defenceless creatures, and some mothers and daughters like to bond by engaging in an orgy of competetive vanity. All harmless hijinks.

This is all irrelevant to the central point. Why should kill-joys override the wishes of the parents and daughters involved. Where's the direct *proof* that it's harmful? Not some psychologist theory or gender political hobby horse. Proof.

Even with that proof, the risk of harm has to outweigh the enjoyment gained. Should we ban football because the odd kid ends up in a wheelchair?

Should Ian Thorpe decide to sue his parents for encouraging him to swim as a young kid. Does Kate Moss enjoy her millions? Should every asian kid sue their parents for pushing them so hard at school? No, that's what their culture values. Our culture values sport and good looks.

You're anti-sexualisation, I'm anti-politicisation of children. It's sinister. It's the thin edge of the wedge. They might ban my satinic chicken slaughter rituals next, my daughters will be devastated.

Houellie,

LOL...."...an orgy of competitive vanities" - love the term, which sums up Western civilisation beautifully.

Parading female tots about on the a stage and judging them on their blinged-up "beauty" to satisfy the competitive vanity of their mothers, in my opinion, warps whatever is psychologically healthy in the normal course of emulation and competition.

Well Poirot, your opinion, like mine, is neither here nor there. I'm sure there are many parents that think I am warping my daughters, but they just have a different value system to me.

I'm really into moral relativism. When I'm not a Nihilist that is.

I don't know these women and their daughters, and I am in no position to judge. I just know what's right for me and my daughers.

What is 'psychologically healthy' is not something I want governments making judgment calls on. What's to say someone wont decide your Laissez-faire attitude to education isn't next in the firing line by some do-gooder with a political objection, armed with some hand picked phsycologist theory.

Houellie,

I'm sorry if I implied that you were warping your daughters.....wasn't my intention. I certainly realise you have their best interests at heart. My reflection on what was being warped was the psychological effect of emulation and competition.

I suppose my main query rests on the young age of the girls that compete in these beauty pageants. Most children learn in the normal process of life unfolding how their physical appearance is received by others - and they adjust their opinion of their looks accordingly. Regularly experiencing a "formal judgment" on their presentation would certainly require the child to alter perspective regarding their system of self-value.