Unfortunately, Muslim mens' behaviour is worse than you think. I have a friend who works with confined Muslim women, and she says the hardest thing about her job is wondering which of the women will be sitting in the corner crying, because she had been raped by her husband, and his brothers and cousins, the night before. And another Muslim friend (a very white-skinned convert) said that the only reason she started wearing the hijab was to stop all the Muslim men she came accross undressing her with their eyes (she lives in a suburb with a high persentage of Muslims).
As I'm fond of quoting, ibn Wariq comments that most Muslims are better than their religion would have them be, on most issues, most of the time. But the Koran's and hadiths' comments on woman, and their rights, are appalling. In Islam, women are possessions, to be treated any way their owner sees fit. And non-Muslim women fare even worse, if that's possible.

Poirot - if your great granny was of European or British Isle descent she would have worn more clothing than contempory Australians. Climate dictated the extent of cover and styles in the 'old countries' which then transferred to a new settlement as the prevailing fashion. If she was of indigenous heritage she may well have worn nothing more than a woven grass belt.

In all old (from mid 1850s on) photos of my family, none of the women are wearing anything resembling the burqa and nothing that obscures their faces. While clothing was generally extensive in that dresses were usually around ankle length, sleeves past elbow and necklines quite high, we have a few 'saucy' lasses in evening dress with rather revealing necklines and short sleeves. By the same token we don't have any happy snaps of Great Grandpa in shorts, teeshirt and pluggers. Both sexes covered up. Three piece suits were standard for the fellas.

I'm sorry but I think your analogy is way off except for the word 'most' in " .. our great grandmothers were probably covered up as much as most Islamic women are today"

That's because MOST Islamic women do not wear tents. That's because their religion does not require them to wear tents. MOST devout Muslim women wear MODEST clothing as prescribed in their Koran, such as long sleeve tunics over trousers and MANY, though not all, wear a scarf or headdress that covers hair and in some styles, neck as well.

Once again people continue to confuse RELIGION with CULTURE. Full cover identity obscuring garments such as the burqa come from a CULTURE where women are considered property to be hidden from the eyes of all but the intimate family circle and female friends (if she's allowed them). This is something I abhor, however my argument is much wider. For any Australian to go routinely in public covered as to obliterate their identity, namely the face, is 1) Culturally inappropriate and 2) A security concern and should be banned under law

divine_msn,

I was merely noting that the cultural dress code for Western women has altered a lot in a relatively short time...even for people living in the northern hemisphere.

As I stated, I do have a problem with interacting with another person who is wearing substantial covering over their face.

Btw, my biological heritage is Scottish and native American - so the best of both worlds, covering-wise, there. : )

True Poirot - but did any of your ancestors that you know of require the women of the family to be 'invisible' in public? To have no identity whatsoever outside the immediate family circle?

There's a huge gulf between 'fashion' which tends to evolve fairly quickly and in response to external factors such as climate and lifestyle and 'custom' where mores are dictated by those who weld power.

divine_msn has a good point there. The scarf over the head has quite a stylistic look for the modern Muslim's women, but the stand-up letter-box out-fit.....well I dont want to point out what might be the real case of why some wear it, and its possible they might be just butt ugly! I mean that, I would understand. However these women are anything but, and its so wonderful to see their smiley faces, and that I think is the whole point of why some dont like it.

P/S For the blokes...well..Thats only a face a mother can love:)..I think you should keep the beard:)

Again, that I can understand.

I cant say I've ever seen one in Sidney and there's roughly 3 million people of all walks of life there.

You all know my stance on religion, and I think if your out to get attention, your not doing it for Australia, your doing it for yourself. Like I say to all Multicultural Australians........if you dont like to live in a huge international society, maybe Australia is not for you.

Good luck.

LEA

Poirot do you ever talk to people on the Phone?

I avoid it myself.

Nobody thinks the Orthodox Jews look silly? Ever lived in Golders Green?

Are the men oppressed because they have those crazy sideburns?

'if you dont like to live in a huge international society, maybe Australia is not for you.'

Good work LEAP.

In the end, all the arguments are either supposition of the oppression of individual women, with no proof of such, and with some kind of amnesia about domestic violence laws, or a general 'it makes me uncomfortable' to talk just to a person's eyes.

Well, I don't like laws that are there to stop people being uncomfortable. Deal with it. Don't talk to them if you don't want to.

As I said, I like to pass comment on their eyebrows if I catch a glimpse.

There is no human right not to be offended and to be allowed to stay in your comfort zone when coercing with all members of society.