The economy has never been better,the current account is massively in the black, un-employment is falling. With all the aformentioned why the IR o/haul. I do not trust howard and his ilk no way at all.
numbat

"Many liberals hoped that with control of the Senate, Howard would move towards significant deregulation of the labour market … Their hopes have been dashed. A golden opportunity has been lost for want of moral clarity and political courage."

So now the penny drops! I was wondering how long will it would take for these ideologically pure conservatives to realise that Howard is practicing his own home brand, willy nilly, adhoc version of political conservativism. Like the weather it changes every other day.

Des is correct. The minimum wage is a pox on society. It criminalises a whole range of employment creating opportunities.

Terje, at the risk of getting personal, would you be able to maintain your current lifestyle on the present minimim wage? Further, what would you do if your minimum wage was subject to reduction at the whim of your employer? I am trying to persuade you to take a walk in other's shoes.

At different points in my life I have had to survive on less than the minimum due to illness, so I have a fairly good idea of what poverty means.I have eaten stale food or skipped meals altogether just to be able to pay bills.

The IR reforms will be dependant upon the largess of employers. The motivation for employers is maximum profit. Do you not see the potential for conflict. Do you not believe that all Australians have a right to a roof over their heads, food on the table and clothes on their backs?

I realise that the impact on the least powerful members of society is not what the topic is strictly about. However it appears to me from reading about the reforms is that they do not give employers as much power as they would desire and virtually dissolves any rights that workers in small businesses had to protect their standard of living. All in all a complete farce.

Howard is losing face - finally - among his senators. There is something to be said for a minority government it is easier to keep control on the ranks. Now it is very large and consequently, more difficult for Howard to hold the reins over all as he has done previously.

We do live in interesting times.

QUOTE: Terje, at the risk of getting personal, would you be able to maintain your current lifestyle on the present minimim wage?

ANSWER: No.

QUOTE: Further, what would you do if your minimum wage was subject to reduction at the whim of your employer?

ANSWER: I think you mean "wage" not "minimum wage". Employers negotiate a wage, Governments set the minimum wage. Most employers would like to pay zero if they could still have motivated and happy staff. However there is a market of jobs out there and employers know it. For most jobs most employers pay well above the legal minimum.

QUOTE: At different points in my life I have had to survive on less than the minimum due to illness, so I have a fairly good idea of what poverty means.

ANSWER: I lived for several years (5 actually) on much less than the minimum wage. According to the article the minimum wage for a full time worker is $25000pa. For a dole receipient it is $11000pa. I never felt that I was in poverty. My stomach was full every night, I had good friends and my bed was always warm. I did find it odd that I was still required to pay income tax.

You see a reduction in the minumum wage as an attack on the weakest members of our society. I see it as a way to create new jobs for those that don't currently have one. And when everybody has a job we will not need a statutory minimum wage to ensure that Australians have a roof over their heads, food on the table and clothes on their backs?

Why should we be contemplating lower minimum wages when the wealth gap continues to surge at an unprecedented rate. Until we have ethical and moral responsibility from executives with absurdly high salaries and add ons, the rest will not get a fair deal. Leading by example starts at the top - not at the bottom.

Terje, a few points:

Yes, there is a market for jobs out there. However, it needs to be highlighted that the current unemployment figures are based (by the ABS/Government) on an employed person being where they have a minimum of 2 x 4 hour shifts per week. Given this, where part-time employment is the desired standard for the current government, the employee’s commodity (labour/service) can not be considered competitive enough to retain a bargaining position suitable for a family income.

If you lived on a below minimum wage and still had a full stomach and a warm bed, then I do not think that you really experienced true financial difficulty. As Trinity implies and I can verify from experience (a house with one full time income supporting 5 people) true poverty means no/very poor food, nights where the electricity is off, no funds for small ‘luxuries’ (i.e. TV, treats for the kids, a holiday to anywhere) and the re-use of hand-me-down clothes from relatives. Even then I don’t think we were truly poor as all the kids still got fed, clothed, bathed and educated.

Finally, sure the removal of minimum wages creates jobs – cheap, non-negotiable jobs where the employer will take those willing to work for what they wish to pay. There are not enough full time jobs to provide a family-sustainable income. Most parents will be working 2 jobs and never see their kids, let alone each other. How this will be good for the greater society I do not know.

If this is the world the majority want, to in the short term provide for themselves, fine. But the majority must then also accept the responsibility for creating a world in which their children may also be the ones who are later exploited by the wealthy. No matter how wealthy you are now, once lost, in this new world of free-market regime there is little hope to regain it. It’s a one-way trip for the losers in the race to the top.

QUOTE:However, it needs to be highlighted that the current unemployment figures are based (by the ABS/Government) on an employed person being where they have a minimum of 2 x 4 hour shifts per week.

TERJE: Yes real unemployment is probably higher than the headline rate. Even more reason to liberate the labour market from the existing shackles.

QUOTE: If you lived on a below minimum wage and still had a full stomach and a warm bed, then I do not think that you really experienced true financial difficulty.

TERJE: I would agree. I lived well below the minimum wage and was never uncomfortable. I had to walk a lot of places but that was not a bad thing. Even today I still wear second hand clothes. At this minute I happen to be wearing a shirt that cost me $5.50 at the local second hand shop. Not because I can't afford to buy new but second hand is cheaper and the quality is great.

QUOTE: Finally, sure the removal of minimum wages creates jobs – cheap, non-negotiable jobs where the employer will take those willing to work for what they wish to pay. There are not enough full time jobs to provide a family-sustainable income. Most parents will be working 2 jobs and never see their kids, let alone each other. How this will be good for the greater society I do not know.

TERJE: You would prefer that these parents were without a job? Job creation policies should be a priority. Lowering the minimum wage should be one of the components of that.

QUOTE: If this is the world the majority want, to in the short term provide for themselves, fine.

TERJE: Of course people want to provide for themselves in the short term. If you don't survive the short term then there is no long term. Your assertion that people who lose wealth can never regain it represents a rather impoverished outlook.

In addition to IR reform we should be working to elliminate income taxes so that people keep the wages they earn.