Many thanks Nicco for some balanced responses and thanks also for introducing me to the real 'Curmudgeon" - hello Mark Lawson. Its good to have a real name - I may get time to skim your book and try to find out where you are coming from with your denialism but I am as unikely to change my convictions as you are. I reiterate - have you seen the CO2 , tempertaure vs time (beginning off age of coal / oil) 'hockey stick' graphs originally produced by Mann et al? There are many others too from the world's most reputable scientific organization such as NASA, NOAA, CSIRO.

As for those who doubt or lampoon my figures, you have not produced a logical refutation so there is nothing to respond to.

Assertions that the dire finances of some European governments are due to the carbon tax - what amazingly simplistic 'logic'. Germany and Sweden have have had carbon price plus feed in tarriffs for longest and have very high renewable energy (RE) -20% or more - doing very well. Spain and Ireland, also high RE - catastrophic government debt. Might it have more to do with Governemnt fiscal management?

The US - California and many NE States such as Massachusets achieve > 20% RE and having their own carbon prices and RE feed in tarriffs. Maybe it has something to do with politics in the US. Our near and poorer neighbour NZ has carbon price of over $20/ tCO2. Is it just possible that these countries/ states are progressive, see carbon and oil constraints as inevitable and see it is less painful to act now than later.

As to how much differnce one person,one state,one nation reducing carbon emission will make, can't you see that it is a matter of the highest emitters (past and present) needing to be the first to act? After all they have more to cut to get close to an equitable situation. Or is it fair that some of us go on emitting 10 times more than the sustainable average?

nicco/Roses 1,

I guess there is some real passion in your posts. Sadly, the case you make is so old and discredited; some might wonder where on earth you’ve been for the last two years?

When the mention of Michael Mann’s “hockey stick” raised its head again I began to realize the desperation of the “warmertariat”. Add to this, the fabricating of EU renewable figures and I came to the conclusion that you know even less about EU economics than you do about climate change. What you don’t know you make up.

When you suggest that we might “doubt or lampoon” your figures what can we say? Yes, that is the one thing you got right?

Since you wish to play the numbers game, let’s start with one of your “nominations”. What is Sweden’s primary source of renewable energy?

Over to you

"As for those who doubt or lampoon my figures, you have not produced a logical refutation so there is nothing to respond to"

No response required old boy, it would only be more regurgitated rubbish from alarmist and hysteric climate scientology sites .. which clearly are not working very well for your mob, since more than half of Australians neither believe or care any longer.

Same with the rest of the world, the whole AGW hsyteria is spiraling in, in a year or two, it will be forgotten as the joke it should be .. those whose reputations damaged will soon move on to other interests as soon as they get funding sorted out.

The environmental movement has been done a great dis-service by the AGW hysterics, like yourself .. well done

Such is the BS that the hysterics have carried on with, everyone has pretty well turned off to the wildly exaggerated end of the world alarmism .. but please do carry on with it, it is amusing to watch the thrashing around and clumping of hysteric alarmists

next will be accusations of funding being against you and dark forces at work ..

Special pleading from Curmudgeon, again. See: von Schuckmann 2009,
http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2009/2008JC005237. The planet continues to absorb more heat than it radiates outwards. The warming trend continues, but most of the warming is going into the oceans, where it is masked by thermal inertia. (I have seen this quoted as a ten year effect, but can't vouch for that.)

And if, as Curm says, people are turning off the issue, it is because of a very succesful campaign by vested interests, who want people to do just that. That doesn't mean that the issue is any less serious.

Hay Roses, have you got a good doctor, to sew up that hole you just shot in your foot. Really mate, you have to do more research if you want to be taken seriously.

California was not a great example to push.

One, it's bankrupt, due mostly to stupid policies like it's renewable power policy.

For the same reason it has the highest unemployment in the US, increasing rapidly.

Three, it only manages to produce about 70% of it's own power, once again due to those stupid policies. The rest it has to buy in from the more intelligent states, who produce reliable power. That's the stuff that comes out of coal fired, or nuclear power plants.

You have to feel sorry for those poor Californians. They jumped on the green band wagon when they had a desperate problem with smog, due to their geography, & their prosperity. They did a great job, sorting it out.

Unfortunately to sort that out they had to develop a huge department. Like most government, departments develop a life of their own. This one has kept on growing, despite being past it's use by date, & now runs around looking for windmills to slay. They are very successful now at finding & solving nonexistent problems, just like the whole global warming crowd.

Californians are stuck on the runaway wagon, & will have to ride it to the crash.

Perhaps something good could come out of it. How about a new movie, "Harry Potter saves California". Sound good? God knows they are going to need a wizard to sort out the mess they are now in

"And if, as Curm says, people are turning off the issue, it is because of a very succesful campaign by vested interests, who want people to do just that.

oooooh dark forces at work .. right on queue

Nicco, who are these vested interests?

How do they work?

Who are they paying?

the reality is there are no vested interests convincing people, people are doing it themselves .. if it smells like BS .. it probably is and after the CRU debacle and all of the governments flip flops and turns, and now an "education team" traveling roadshow .. who apparently are preaching to the converted

so there huge amount of funding they get, all the funding of the BOM, CSIRO universities WWF, ACF getub and all the rest .. and they still can't get a result and in fact it's going backwards for the well funded doom saying hysterics ..

surely you're not in denial that most people simply do not believe any longer that there is a problem caused by mankind that can be fixed by a tax from a labor government who stuffs up everything they touch?

you guys crack me up, defending the indefensible with pithy little snide accusations of "vested interests" .. like there's a conspiracy .. against the overwhelmingly well funded alarmist camp .. pull the other one mate