The National Forum   Donate   Your Account   On Line Opinion   Forum   Blogs   Polling   About   
The Forum - On Line Opinion's article discussion area



Syndicate
RSS/XML


RSS 2.0

Main Articles General

Sign In      Register

The Forum > Article Comments > Culture trouble - the ADFA, the Ministers, and the Commissioner > Comments

Culture trouble - the ADFA, the Ministers, and the Commissioner : Comments

By Jocelynne Scutt, published 18/4/2011

What can we expect from another cyclical inquiry into bastardisation and the Australian Defence Forces?

  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. All
Ms Scutt's article does not mention the cultural issues arising from the military fact and point of view that the armed forces are responsible to the Queen, through the Governor-General, as Commander-In-Chief and that this makes them different from all other forms of public service. Federal Ministers come and go, the military establishment needs only to ignore any minister with which it does not see eye to eye and, given sufficient time, another minister will arrive. That new minister's advisors, both within the forces and within his own office, will no doubt have briefed the newly arrived one as to the nature of the problem and how to avoid it.

Any review of culture needs to include review of the environment which gave birth to the culture and which continues to nurture it.

Since it is not reasonable to expect a Minister of Defence to start his tenure by beheading the leaders of the Department of Defence, as so often happens to other Department Heads, where lies a solution to the problem which, at its heart, may well be a belief that somehow the military is "different" and has its own standards, not beholden to or aligned with the standards of the community at large and as expressed, from time to time, by the community's representatives in parliament and through the Minister?

Should the Prime Minister be the Commander in Chief? If not, why not?

While sticking the boot into ADFA, how much does education at ADFA cost taxpayers in comparison with, say, UNSW or a basket of Australian universities? How does this compare with officer training internationally? What are the pupil/staff ratios? What are ADFA’s objectives, how well are these objectives being achieved (quality) and at what cost? Should some or all of ADF’s activities be outsourced? Should on-campus living be discontinued? Should senior management of ADFA have military or academic backgrounds?

Should ADFA be simply written off as a bad investment; a failed experiment?
Posted by JohnBennetts, Monday, 18 April 2011 11:08:54 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The Defence force is not really a lot different from much of our secularised society. The ridiculous notion of putting young male and female cadets together and expecting nothing unbecoming to happen defies logic. The men who perved on this young woman involved in the immoral affair are no different from many in society who watch porn. It was not a 'defence' culture but a society culture that was acted out. The same culture is in the Labour party, the Liberal party, football teams and women's hockey teams. The sooner we stop wasting money on inquiries when their is no intention of facing up to the adamic nature of man the better.
Posted by runner, Monday, 18 April 2011 12:09:09 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Let's face it, the Military does not want their disciples mixing with other normal human beings. Why? The Military is involved in a process designed to make their graduates efficient killers.

In common with the American military, these gullible, young people are encouraged to think of themselves as special, as a cut above the rest, as valiant heroes who, to a man or a woman, are prepared to serve and die for their country. What a con!

The truth is that they are no more than cannon fodder much as soldiers have always been. They are the bunnies who obey the orders of the top brass and politicians who themselves rarely venture into the killing fields, neither them or their children.

So off to the front they go, to Iraq, a war fought on the basis of lies about WMDs, to Afghanistan where America gained access to various scarce resources, to Vietnam and Korea where they helped American imperialism, etc.

Surely, it's time we stopped wars, stopped making the armament manufacturers rich, stopped killing innocent civilians, stopped the whole war industry.

War diminishes us, turns us into savages!

http://dangerouscreation.com
Posted by David G, Monday, 18 April 2011 1:56:41 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
War diminishes us, turns us into savages!

I know, lets have the Taliban instead, then we will see how you luvvies get on when your cafe lattes are banned.

You cant compare University of Canberra with ADFA, because all ADFA students speak rather good English.

The ADFA students involved in petty porn did not have an ADF 'culture' because they had only been in the ADF for 6 weeks! Get ya facts right before bleating.
Posted by peter piper, Monday, 18 April 2011 2:06:57 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Peter Piper writes

'War diminishes us, turns us into savages!'
Yes war is horrible but their are plenty of 'savages' on the streets that are full of drugs and would kill and rape their grandma to get hold of drugs. Oh that's right these people have are sickness so their acts can't be considered to be savages.
'
Posted by runner, Monday, 18 April 2011 2:42:36 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Jocelyn

There is to be an enquiry into the current fiasco.

Wonderful!

It will show a few truths, ignored by the media ... I'll suggest some and before you condemn my conclusions ... do some basic research.

1. Kafer, the commandant at ADFA, acted according to his manual.

2. The rules set in his manual were those put in place after 1992 inquiry that put an end to the behaviour of the bullies and their bastardisation practises.

3. There have been few if any cases of sexual harassment, deviate behaviours and no rapes (Before or after)in ADFA since 1992.

4. The complaints now coming to light are all prior to the 1992 inquiry and some even go back to the Second World War ... fcs.

5. It will be seen the military has a better record, in this area than many other government run organisations.

One in particular, Sydney University where a Studeny Union survey of students found 16% of female students had been sexually harassed, assaulted, or RAPED.

6. That Females have been included in Frontline roles for some time.

7. That the abused woman cadet was given ADFA and Defence Depatment advice to postpone the pending disciplinary charges she faced.

8 That the Defence Minister Smith was either was ill-informed or lying when he ranted and suggested the disciplinary action she was subjected to was an example of ADFA and Defence Department bullying.

It appears she opted to want to clear the decks before dealing with the abusive behaviour she was subjected to and about which she had complained. She was advised against this action.

Basically it will be legitimately shown Defence Minister Smith was an utter goose and should resign.

If you can have a look at the ABC News CHannel of Monday morning 18 April, where the media interviewers were made to look shallow and silly by the Defence Force Association spokesperson ... who was obviously very very well informed and was able to articulately negate the biased and incorrect assumptions in their questions.

Looks like Smith has done his dash for the labor leadership. eh?
Posted by keith, Monday, 18 April 2011 7:38:41 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Just what we need - more advice from human rights lawyers.

But she is right. It's terrible that the ADF is such a boys' club. We should immediately turn it into a girls' club.

The taliban will be furious. We can attack them with inquiries into their sexual discrimination. It's like they've never read an online Sydney Morning Herald poll before. We need some inquiries too. At least 7 will be necessary.

Don't they have a Equal Opportunities Commission over there? Barbarians.
Posted by dane, Monday, 18 April 2011 9:55:26 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Oh dear, Keith!

Thanks for the potted rave, but you added nothing of interest regarding the actual purpose, operation, disciplinary processes of the institution currently known as ADFA.

Now, to turn to the Defence Forces Association's spokesperson's comments of this morning. That which impressed you so much appeared to some as mere bleatings coming from someone with a ready and loud opinion but no knowledge of, or involvement, in the situation. Typical ADFA response, I believe. They really need a new spokesperson.

Re-read the comment I submitted above and tell me why ADFA even exists and why the facts of the current controversy should not be investigated, hopefully in private and with a tenderness and consideration that has been absent thus far from those who support this nation's elite war machine.

For mine, I'd like to weigh the costs and the value of achievement of foreign aid on the same scales as those of the foreign adventures of our soldiers, sailors and airmen, but that will have to wait for another day.
Posted by JohnBennetts, Monday, 18 April 2011 9:59:51 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I think it is a very perceptive article from Dr.Scutt.
Apart from Dane's unhelpful remarks, the readers have all had at least some grasp as to what Scutt is really getting, in examining one aspect of an example of socio-cultural dumbing down, how it operates in microcosm and where it can later connect with and impact on the wider culture and society. "Manufactured ignorance" ( and where it could lead ) is probably a bit reductionist, but I'll use the term anyway.
Joining the dots, we can see it is society in microcosm and that defence training is another victim of the culture wars waged by Howard and his hard core conservatives and the Labor right, via the structured alienation of defence personnel from society and vice versa.
Defence is no longer about training up intelligent people to do a job well, but commodification of a certain type of individuated personality; young, inexperienced, ignorant, toward a goal of ideological conditioning based on that naivity that now must precede even the defence training itself.
Will tomorrow's Hansonists be today's killers of civilian ethnic "others" in foreign war zones, as is alleged to have happened already in places like Iraq and Afghanistan?
Am thinking of the notorious "turkey shoot" in Iraq recently, featured on a number of recent current affairs docos, where US troops herded unarmed Iraqi civilians into a blind ally and executed them from helicopters, while the CO contentedly crooned "nice, nice" from his position away from the bloodbath?
Posted by paul walter, Tuesday, 19 April 2011 4:12:20 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
John Bennetts,

To be kind, you seem somewhat confused.

I had no intention of adding anything 'regarding the actual purpose, operation, disciplinary processes of the institution currently known as ADFA.'

I merely wanted to show the current controversy after an official and independant enquiry will likely have findings that will totally demolish many of the unsupported assertions/opinions as expressed by Jocelyn Scutt.

ie
1.That there is need for a review of the Defence Force disciplinary procedures in light of recent incidents.

2. That there are regularly revelations emanating from various parts of the Australian Defence Forces (ADF) on bullying, harassment, bastardisation (euphemistically named 'initiation ceremonies') and even suicide.

3. That there has been review after review after review conducted into what are merely asserted to be endemic problems within the military. There has only, from my knowledge, one serious review into bastardisation practises and that was in 1992.

4. That there is an 'iceberg' of hidden problems.

What will be found is that there have been many allegations, but not revelations, over a long period but after the 1992 enquiry none or very few have been substantiated.

A rant indeed.
Posted by keith, Tuesday, 19 April 2011 9:54:55 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Oh and John Bennets,

The Defence Force Association and it's spokesperson are not speaking on behalf of the ADFA nor the Defence Forces.

Clarity John, clarity usually exposes ... well you know ... truth. And that's what an independant enquiry will do.

I'm all for an independant enquiry into all aspects of this weeks disgraceful behaviours and their handling as well as the politicians antics.
Posted by keith, Tuesday, 19 April 2011 10:03:20 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Our zeitgeist host,Ms Soutt's laborious tirade on the culture of the ADFA and ADF, borders on the hysterical. Citing deaths, and other misfeasance and abominations, really does her essay little credit.
Harassment, sexual and/or otherwise, occurs in all walks of Life, and hardly raises an eyebrow, much less a kerfuffle eg. David Jones, IBM, NRL, AFL etc fiasco.

The Skype imbroglio is taking on a new meaning. It is being hijacked by the Politicians, again. There's Smith, Minchin, Joyce, and newly elected Member for Denison - Andrew Wilkie. MP.

Cadet Officer Kate's squalid buffoonery in Fisher, admittedly does highlight the deficiencies in the Military. Ironically, whoever chose her pseudonym faux-pas, forgot Prince Andrew and Miss Middleton will tie the knot soon - in the greatest extravaganza this Century in London. Happily, there are no coincidental similarities.

Whatever veracity Wilkie earned, in the lead-up to his election, his 20 years in the ADF is clouded with his time as a senior cadet, where it appears, as a ring-master, he subscribed to demeaning childish pranks and what is euphemistically called " bastardization ". Willfully bullying, hazing, dehumanizing, etc,from members of the Elite Officer Corp ?

His stalwart accuser ex cadet Brenden Etchels, who was forced to resign his coveted career. There are many others.

Candidly. Mr Wilkie, you have lost me.
Posted by dalma, Wednesday, 20 April 2011 3:11:03 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. All

About Us :: Search :: Discuss :: Feedback :: Legals :: Privacy