below is a table. Not sure if it holds its formate. If not, it will be difficult to read. I can put it on the Republic Now website. his is what creates real diversity, not what we have in Australia, a two party tyranny of look-alike parties!

Parliamentary parties (Lower house 150 seats)
Parties with representation in the First Chamber (Senate), Second Chamber (House of Representatives) and European Parliament, as of July 2010:
Lower House Senate Euro
Peoples Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD, Rutte) 31 seats 14 3
Labour Party (PvdA, Cohen) 30 seats 14 3
Party for Freedom (PVV), Wilders) 24 seats 0 5
Christian Democrats (CDA, Verhagen) 21 seats 21 5
Socialist Party (SP, Roemer) 15 seats 11 2
Democrats 66 (D66, Pechtold) 10 seats 2 3
Green Left (GL, Sap) 10 seats 4 3
Christian Union (CU, Rouvoet) 5 seats 4 1
Reformed Political Party (SGP, Van der Staay) 2 seats 1 1
Party for Animals (PvdD, Thieme) 2 seats 1 0
Independent Senate Fraction (OSF, ten Hoeven) 0 seats 1 0
_______________________________________________________________

The proportional representation system (Hare Clark) includes the preferential option for the Senate. It is only in English-speaking countries and then only for small councils that Hare-Clark is used. The PR systems elsewhere, most European countries, Argentina New Zealand, South Africa mostly use the Open Party List system. The task of the voter is to cast a vote, ONE VOTE only for the party of his or her preference and the particularly candidate on that party's list. The preference exist in the number of parties/Independents who contest the election. That choice is real and meaningful. It is not an illusion - what it is here.

You all know that the ridiculouslly elaborate choice for the Senate paper is avoided by 96% of the voters. It is impractical but the other option is actually a perversion of Hare Clarke and has given rise to horse trading and electoral crookery to mislead voters. I have been a Senate candidate three times and I know what i am talking about.

Pfff, you’ve got to be so vigilant about refreshing the thread before you post anything!! I hadn’t seen your second post Helen when I posted my last one.

You had addressed my question about OPV to some extent. But I still cannot see how it would be preferable to the antidemocratic CPV system.

We’ve had OPV in Queensland for a long time, without any tendency towards FPTP or without anything having happened that would be worse than if Goss hadn’t changed the system from CPV to OPV in the early 90s.

Now Ludwig, remember to refresh the thread just before you post. Oh look, there’s a new post from Klaas!

Dear Ludwig, No problem, I've done that myself!
I picked a pseudonym when I first went on opinion online, but I now only post on the internet under my own name.
Helen

Hi all,

I have posted this information on the Dutch election of July 2010 on the blog of the Republic Now! website here:

http://www.republicnow.org/blog-republic-and-other/

The formatting is still not perfect but there is some more information about how the two party tyranny in Australian is fooling the Australian voters believing that they can really express preferences resultng in a democratic outcome!

Enjoy.

Thanks Klaas and Helen for continuing this discussion. But I feel that I’m not getting any real understanding as to why you don’t strongly support OPV and condemn CPV.

This is a pretty crucial factor I would have thought, and totally relevant in this discussion following an article titled ‘In praise of preferential voting’.

I see CPV as a tool of unscrupulous governments and oppositions which have colluded to keep it in place, because it is to their advantage compared to OPV which opens up the arena somewhat more to minor parties and independents.

But, I don’t understand how they get away with! Why haven’t journalists or political analysts jumped on this and driven home the message to the community that CPV is fundamentally democratically outrageous and that OPV works very well, as it has in Qld and NSW for a long time.

Why is there so much apathy in the general community and disinterest amongst academics and journalists?

Thanks for the republicnow link Klaas. I’ve had a bit of a look. Will read thoroughly later.

Now, must remember to refresh the thread bfor posting….