This is rather amusing, or at least it would be if it weren't so tragic. Singer is totally oblivious to yet another argument in favour of Winston Churchill's sayings.

That argument is that in Israel, democracy has failed disastrously also, in that it has produced governments which find it acceptable to occupy neighbouring territories, and to continue to exclude refugees from the places where they lived until 1947-8.

As for Singer himself, I'm curious to know whether he is ignorant of these facts, or just pretending to be.

Psst! Brother keep your head down !

We can't criticise , we have a PM who Blatantly Lied at the Ballot Box .

Technically we don't have a democracy.

So best we lie low ashamed and insecure .

jeremy, "acceptable to occupy neighbouring territories" and continue to "exclude refugees from the places where they lived until 1947-8"

Since we are "ignorant of these facts", could you please reveiw these "facts"? You can start with the League of Nations Article VIII then move forward.

Looking forward to more facts,

Thanks.

One of the preconditions put to Hamas is to accept the State of Israel.

Has Israel declared the borders of its State?

Is it possible to recognise a State when we don't know where it begins and where it ends? Are we talking about the 1948 borders, or some borders before 1967, or maybe the borders defined by the apartheid wall - sorry, the security fence.

This mealy-mouthed double-talk will perhaps diminish when the awakening Arab world starts bargaining with Israel on a more equal footing, and when Israel decides that it makes more sense to negotiate with its neighbours rather than kill them.

# jeremy

You state: "in Israel, democracy has failed disastrously"

My response: 18 elections in 63 years is pretty impressive. If the voters get it wrong they have the chance to change their elected Government at least once every four years. I would imagine they would know what is best for them than relying on what you or anyone else tell them they should do. Certainly your opinion is important but ultimately those living in Israel have to make the final decision.
They like any other people can make wrong decisions. No one is perfect.

What would you suggest to replace Israel's democratic system? The Iranian model, the Arab-style dictatorial and dynastic regimes that are toppling like packs of cards?

#Garum Masala

At least we have the chance to get rid of a lying Government in four years or perhaps earlier.

If we make the same mistake and elect them again we can blame no-one but ourselves and have to bear the consequences of our decision.

Our democracy is strong and vibrant. It has thrown up a minority government this time round. We all have to consider what we do next time around.

# Stan1

You ask: "Has Israel declared the borders of its State?"

My response: The answer is "yes" - with Egypt and Jordan under the Israel-Egypt peace treaty and the Israel-Jordan Peace Treaty.

In the Egypt-Israel Peace Treaty it is expressed as:

"The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel in the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip."

In the Israel-Jordan Peace Treaty it is expressed as:

"1. The international boundary between Israel and Jordan is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate as is shown in Annex I (a), on the mapping materials attached thereto and co-ordinates specified therein.

2. The boundary, as set out in Annex I (a), is the permanent, secure and recognised international boundary between Israel and Jordan, without prejudice to the status of any territories that came under Israeli military government control in 1967."

The status of the West Bank and Gaza has been the subject of negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority for the last 17 years. Both make claims to these disputed territories which have been unable to be resolved so far and on current indications will not be resolved between them.

A new Arab negotiating partner/s with Israel - Jordan and/or Egypt - seems the only way to resolve the final status of the West Bank and Gaza. At present no one has internationally legally recognized sovereignty over these two areas.

jeremy, since you have not yet justified claims of your “facts”, I’ve provided a link to a previous OLO thread on this subject, which very comprehensively covered much of the history of this topic.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2711#60786

David Singer, it seems that many of the reactions you are getting to what I think is a very pragmatic article, is the absence of historical perspective. Perhaps we do not teach it in our education system any longer?

It could be that the likes of jeremy and Stan1 really do believe they have the “facts” however, there really is no excuse for this either as they have access to the same factual history as everyone else.

The civil rights, pro-Palestinian and peace activists have been asleep at the wheel for the last 20 years, focusing, as they have, our attention on the Israel/Palestinian politics, whilst those suffering human rights abuse far greater and with no opportunities for peace negotiations have been conveniently ignored.

As the “butterfly flapped its wings” in Tunisia, the pro-Palestinian advocacy movement is faced with its own culpability. It can’t claim ignorance, it can’t claim the “dog ate my homework” and it can’t blame the US. No doubt they will try and end up seeming even further from reality.

This is a very opportune time to revisit this issue, though I suspect that those blinded by the ignorant passion of advocacy, may not have spotted the Sword of Damocles hovering over their heads.

David

Thank you for your response.

“The status of the West Bank and Gaza has been the subject of negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority for the last 17 years. Both make claims to these disputed territories which have been unable to be resolved so far and on current indications will not be resolved between them.”

I can understand why the Palestinian Authority makes claims on the West Bank and Gaza. Their people have been living there for generations. What is the basis of the claim by Israel?

Stan1,

<<I can understand why the Palestinian Authority makes claims on the West Bank and Gaza. Their people have been living there for generations. What is the basis of the claim by Israel? >>

I guess you are implying that because “Their people have been living there for generations”, that there in an indigenous claim to occupy. Fair enough. Let’s see how this stacks up.

Are you saying that the Jews did not also live there for generations? About 5,000 years of “generations” in fact.

There was no such thing as a “Palestinian Arab People” until 1920. Interesting that the Arab Nations unanimously voiced their opposition to this proposal as a European concept that was, in their words “repugnant”. People living west of the Jordan River were regarded as secular Jewish/Christianic. 1948 the League of Nations Article VIII declared Jerusalem a place of worship for all denominations including the Jewish community.

In 1948 the Arab Liberation Army, including troops from Egypt, Jordan, Palestine, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Libya, launched war against the Jews and captured the West Bank and Jerusalem. The ALA displaced and dispossessed some 10,000 Jews from the territory now occupied by the Jordanians. The Jews then expelled some 750,000 Palestinians from the territory they occupied.

The Jews then declared the State of Israel and established the border on the lines of their defenses against the ALA.

Again in 1967, in addition to Egypt, who attacked via Gaza through the UN forces protecting Israel’s southern border, Jordan, with troops from Syria, Iraq, Sudan, Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria joined the attack on Israel and got a sound slapping, loosing much of their own territories.

I guess you could support your case by suggesting that the current Egyptians are actually decedents of the Mamluks and Turks, thus we should stir up the Nubians to reclaim the middle and lower Nile? Or the Picts who lived in Scotland until the Irish “Scotts” invaded?

Western Palestinian Advocacy has done for the Palestinians what we have done for our own indigenous community, driven them into victimhood. Congratulations.

Or you could send Eddie Mabo?

David,

It's over, you've lost.

The Arab world is shedding the vestiges of Socialism and starting to embrace Western Democracy. They've seen a fledging democracy taking a toehold in Iraq ... without the anticipated great violence. They've witnessed the great wealth of the west and they've embraced it.

The west will embrace the democratic Arab world.

Oh we're also seeing the end to te influence of the mullahs.

Isn't it time you blokes did similar?

# Stan1

The basis of Israel's claim to the West Bank and Gaza is grounded in international law - specifically article 6 of the Mandate for Palestine.

The Mandate called for the reconstitution of the Jewish National Home in Palestine and for close settlement by Jews on State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.

These rights were specifically preserved by article 80 of the UN Charter.

The Palestinian Arabs never accepted the validity of these decisions by the League of Nations and the United Nations - made in the context of granting the Arabs sovereignty over 99.999% of the Ottoman Empire captured by Great Britain and France in 1918 - whilst setting aside just 0.001% of the land for the Jewish people in recognition of their historical connection with Palestine subject to the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine not being prejudiced.

When the opportunity arose for the Palestinian Arabs to create their own State in the West Bank and Gaza after the 1948 war they chose to do otherwise by unifying the West Bank with Jordan in 1950 whilst Gaza remained under Egyptian administration for 19 years with no attempt to grant the Palestinian Arabs sovereignty there.

Had the Palestinian Arabs created their state in the West Bank and Gaza at any time between 1948-1967 after all Jews living there had been driven out in 1948 by the invading Jordanian army - all the suffering and trauma sustained by them and the Jews over the last 60 years would have been avoided.

The last 17 years of fruitless negotiations make it clear to me that the creation of a new Arab state between Jordan,Egypt and Israel has become impossible to achieve. Time waits for no man.

The opportunity available between 1948-1967 has flown the coop.

The best one can now hope to achieve is dividing sovereignty of the West Bank and Gaza between Israel,Jordan and possibly Egypt in direct negotiations. Time is running out for this solution as Jordan braces itself for the rise of people power across the Arab world.

It seems the 'Singer' thinks that, because Israel has a form of democracy, that that excuses its brutality towards the Palestinians and its occupation of them for forty plus years together with its land-stealing, genocide, war crimes, etc.

America is a democracy too but that doesn't stop it from engaging in Israeli-style imperialism or promoting endless war or trying to control the world, does it?

The leaders of both America and Israel need to be taken to the ICC and tried for their many war crimes.

Their punishment should fit their heinous crimes.

http://dangerouscreation.com

Truely David, At the end of the day yours are just more of the same ... weasel words. And none of us believe you any more.

We're no longer listening ... we're all watching with excitement the Arab world.

And don't you blokes think you can subvert what's happening there!

It really is amusing to see all these young people today posturing and denouncing Israel, and actually portaying Israel as a villain.

I lived through a time when the educated, liberal youths all staunchly supported Israel, and when bragging about living on a kibbutz was the ultimate proof that you were a card carrying member of the intelligent, brahmin caste.

Young brahmins have always divided the world up between Oppressors and Oppressed, and Israel was considered an Oppressed state, while the 500 million Arabs all clamouring for its destruction were the Oppressors. The problem for Israel, was that in all its wars it just kept winning. And for young brahmins, people who are winners are automatically considered to be Oppressors, while people who are the Losers then become the Oppressed.

The fact that (starting with Mohammad himself) every Muslim nation has almost succeeded in ethnically cleansing every Jew from their lands is something today's brahmins prefer not to dwell upon. Nor is it considered that the hatred directed against Israel by the Muslim world has nothing to do with Palestinians, it is because the very presence of Israel means that Islam has retreated in a country once conquored by the armies Islam.

THAT is an offense to their God and THAT is what it is all about.

But today's young trendies seize upon the condemnation of Israel in order to prove their liberal credentials, in the same way that an adolescent seizes up a pack of cigarettes to prove that he is an adult.

Lego, I'm no young trendy and I condemn Israel. I condemn it for its brutality, its war crimes, its genocide, its arrogance, its cruelty, its land stealing, its strangling occupation.

Which planet do you live on?

And what about stealing Australian passports so that they can engage in extra-judicial assassinations.

'And what about stealing Australian passports so that they can engage in extra-judicial assassinations

Its called playing terrorist with their own game.

Who created the terrorists? (freedom fighters?).