Your entry scores point shows you are confused. If the Govt gave an extra 30% salary to sewage workers or botanists, that would also increase the demand (and entry training/scores) for those things too. It's just not clear why that's desirable given we need less and less public school teachers (demand is falling). The union just has no credibility on these issues, since their advice has invariably led to poor results. You claim that the teacher standard will rise, yet to hear the AEU talk, the standard is already great, and teacher's are doing a fine job, that they are civic minded individuals who teach for the love of their jobs, etc (this is the argument always trotted out to defend their performance). But now you conversely claim that teacher quality will improve if we offer them more money? I thought that wasn't an issue. And if it is, why can't we introduce a vouchers model, or flexible working hours, or have teacher feedback mechanisms that they're accountable for. Why can't teacher pay be based on something other than tenure? These things would do far more to improve quality. But the AEU tells us that the current teachers (who didn't require higher scores or tougher training) are absolutely fine, none need to be fired, and in fact they deserve a 30% bump in wages... if that's the case, why would quality go up, when the current system has apparently produced the best teachers? In which case, why spent 30% more when there will be no tangible benefit? That's the problem with the AEU narrative, it's not consistent.

3) My experience with the Australian education sector has been that teacher selection is almost completely non-existent. If it's different in Victoria, please provide the evidence of that, so we can see how many people this affects, etc, and what the conditions are.

Riddler,

I have answered your points twice now. You just don’t accept the answer.

The evidence that grammar is taught is in the English courses of every school I taught in. I am unable to supply video evidence of lessons, so you are free to ignore my statement.

I make my own argument. The AEU can make its. The figures I gave are not AEU figures, but ones I calculated myself from public sources. The fall in relative teacher pay has been accompanied by a fall in entry scores for trainee teachers. If you are content for the average ability of teachers to fall, you would support this pay cut. If you want to increase the average ability level of teachers, you would want the pay decline reversed. I want more able teachers. Teacher training entry scores are for all teachers, not just those who end up inn public schools.

The evidence that teachers are locally selected in Victoria is all over the place. It is the standard method, so it affects everyone. It’s one of those things that should not need proving, like the non-flatness of the Earth. You can search at the DEECD website if you want proof.

How sad that the usual ideologues have hijacked this debate. Once again the argument is about "choice", plus the usual hackneyed jibes about "feminist" and "socialist" education in the state sector. Unfortunately Chris Curtis seems to be a lone sensible voice in the debate here.

I've yet to see a convincing argument here against the following, taken from the original article - in fact, many of those arguing here seem to be avoiding it entirely:

"Ultimately, education is not about parents, it’s about children. Children do not choose their parents or their parents’ income level or their attitudes to education. The circumstances we are each born into are purely a matter of chance. A fair and intelligent funding system should not reward good luck in the lottery of life but seek to mitigate against bad luck."

So, is this wrong? Who is going to argue that kids should have to "cop" the life they've been born with and that too bad if their parents won't make the effort to give them opportunities?

If it is true that teachers salaries have been cut by 30% then all it proves is that they were massively overpaid in the past. Yet I dont accept this claim anyhow. There is no conceivable way that any profession would have had its pay cut by this amount without strikes etc.

Teachers are NOT underpaid. They are not paid huge money either but then again, why should they? They are paid above average salaries yet in the public sector are providing a poor return on that investment. The private sector pays a little more yet extracts vastly better outcomes from its teachers. I am of the firm (and growing) opinion that money is NOT the problem in the public sector but rather entrenched ideologies and union involvement that the private sector doesnt have.The only thing more money would give the public schools is smaller class sizes which have already been proven to not affect academic outcomes. In the end it ALWAYS boils down to the capacity and passion of the teacher. The private sector enhances it and the public sector crushes it. The best teachers dont get headhunted to private schools; they FLEE there. The lousy teachers stay in the public system because they cant get out.

My solution is this: outsource 100% of public schools to the private sector. let them run zero-fee public schools without the interference of the teachers union and the myriad other pressures and ideologies. Could they possibly do worse?

I don't think I'm asking for much in the way of proof, "go look it up yourself" isn't much of a response. Just tell me what grammar classes in the town in Victoria you're from does... are they a sub-part of English classes, are they for all year groups, etc. I can assure you they don't have it in Canberra, and nor do they have many other parts of Australia.

Do you teach at a private school, a public school, or a selective school?

Likewise, I'll be happy to look later for this supposed teacher selection, but I don't see why someone who apparently teaches there can't tell me about it.

As to pay rates, this has been explained to you, and you've just ignored the answers above. There is obviously no reason to increase wages.

Riddler go look at Recruitment OnLine within the Victorian Ed Dept's website. You'll see plenty of schools advertising for teachers off their own bat.