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The Forum > Article Comments > Setting ambitious education goals is great – but what do they mean? > Comments

Setting ambitious education goals is great – but what do they mean? : Comments

By Katrina Brink, published 2/2/2011

You can make 90% of Australian secondary school students stay to year 12, but how do you keep them engaged?

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A little too late perhaps.

Australian industry has to have a higher skilled workforce to be able to compete with other countries, and Australia cannot rely on coal and iron ore exports forever. As well there has to be an emphasis on innovation and development to be able to create more value added products from Australia.

Unfortunately, innovation, development and Australian made products are perhaps the least likely things to find within the education system.

In a feminist education system, I have also heard numerous teachers say “boys do all right later on”, and on one occasion this was said by a teacher in front of the school principal with no action taken by the school principal.

This attitude allows teachers to form a totally dismissive attitude towards their students, and they can pass at least 50% of the students through the school system with no interest in the students.

Reforms are unlikely to occur within the education system without teachers being paid according to performance, rather than appearance money.
Posted by vanna, Wednesday, 2 February 2011 8:01:00 AM
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Vanna I agree 100% with your post.

Check this out : With a shared interest in supporting the re-engagement of young people in Queensland this innovative partnership provides a powerful combination of key issues and evidence-based recommendations that reflect the knowledge of young people, practitioners, and researchers....end quote.

What does it mean ? Answer ; Bureaucrats and Leftie Teachers congratulating each other at a "Talk Fest on the Gold Coast"

Education has become too Politicised Left Wing Fanatics prevail.

On one occasion a meeting was called to advise the Public about a new School to be built at a Victorian City two schools were to be closed and the real estate sold before the new school was built ! There was widespread resistance to this because no sensible explanation was forthcoming explaining where 900 students would be properly accommodated , many of the Teachers were upset and the School P&C Board were threatened and Coerced into signing off the School many were so distraught they vomited others were crying this happened not in the USSR indeed no here in Victoria !

Some more details about the meeting : Booklets were handed out outlining the intended new school it was too extensive about 70 pages to read at the time and the MC was working the crowd and he revealed that this day was the culmination of 7 years work and proceeded to thank/congratulate the cotery of super Clammed up's involved each stood up and beamed as he did so it was a bit like an Amway meeting we were being played as dummys. continued
Posted by Garum Masala, Wednesday, 2 February 2011 9:28:12 AM
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I agree with vanna on this one. Our population is made up of two genders and as such education has to cater to both learning styles and needs.

As for Left Wing. Public schools may be dominated by Left leaning thinkers but it does not seem to be doing too much 'harm' in the outside world which is by far dominated by Right wing economic policy, in particular global trends. There is much hot air produced about the influence of the Left wing in Australia when in fact the Left Wing is dying a slow death, yet about the growing extremes of the Right Wing little is written.

Feminism is nothig to do with the Left Wing and is proudly claimed by women on both sides of politics.

For my two bob's worth, there is some merit in the idea of co-ed schools but with segregated classrooms for most subject areas with perhaps a coming-together in subjects like drama and art.

Keeping students engaged and wanting to participate in education to Yr12 involves getting rid of the one-size-fits-all approach. Unfortunately our schools are not sufficiently resourced in what used to be called remedial education ie. catching problems early before it is too late without the ridiculous strict criteria that results in some 'borderline' kids missing out.

The main problem is not the schools. It is the homes. Schools are being asked more and more to take on board social welfare programs to pick up the slack in disadvantaged homes. That is where support needs to be increased. How to do it? More expert sociologists than I can offer comment on that one.
Posted by pelican, Wednesday, 2 February 2011 10:59:48 AM
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In saying all that I too have had some negative experiences with schools including dealing with patronising teachers/principals and resisting some of the current flavour-of-the-day approaches to teaching.

One of these included assimilating children from a behavioural unit into mainstream classes before they were ready which resulted in six months of wasted time for the teacher, the students and the behaviourally challenged child. Students had to put up with this boy constantly running around the classroom, intimidating other children, pulling down bookshelves of which the other kids had to constantly clean up, while being told they had to show understanding and compassion for this boy who had problems and "we must all help him". There is merit to that approach but only so far and if the 'experiment' fails don't prolong it. Many kids could not understand (Grade 4s) why this boy wasn't disciplined and why he was treated differently (leniently for gross misbehaviours). They were not fooled by the inconsistency and the boy just flaunted his 'power' in front of the other kids and his ability to get away with almost any misadventure. The boy is also disadvantaged when he learns the rules do not apply to him.

The needs of this one boy for a short time (six months), took priority over the needs of every other child in that classroom before it was decided he was not ready and should be returned to the behavioural unit. I hope current teaching practices have changed. These 'well-meaning' policies help no-one. Obviously the goal should be to help disadvantaged children return to mainstream classes with as much support as possible. Many of these kids knew how to play the system and what was needed was a bit more old fashioned no-tolerance.
Posted by pelican, Wednesday, 2 February 2011 11:16:28 AM
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Pelican,
There is no great need for even more sociologists in the education system.

What is a main problem has already been identified.

"Like wealth, risks adhere to the class pattern,
only inversely: wealth accumulates at the top,
risks at the bottom. To that extent, risks seem to
strengthen, not abolish, the class society. Poverty
attracts an unfortunate abundance of risks.
By contrast, the wealthy (in income, power or
education) can purchase safety and freedom from
risk. (Beck, 1992, p. 35)."

http://www.yanq.org.au/images/stories/Documents/yanq_report_final-art_press_compress.pdf

The education of children depends heavily on wealth, and most of the wealth in society depends upon the family unit. That means marriage, as marriages accumulate more wealth over time than de facto relationships or single parenting.

In a feminist education system, few teachers have ever spoken out in support of marriage.

In fact I haven’t heard of any.

So there are now numerous asking for more taxpayer funding for early intervention and programs for disadvantaged youth etc, but none asking for restoration of the family unit, that will do more to remove child poverty over the longer term than schools for disadvantaged children.

The highly feminist education system has created its own mess.
Posted by vanna, Wednesday, 2 February 2011 11:23:41 AM
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Setting ambitious education goals is great – but what do they mean? :

Continued from earlier post:

In the brocure was an illustration provided as an example of what our new school would look like , The school was MtLawley a new school in inner City Perth . WA had a Education internet site that rated all schools by their success rates however it no longer exists because the open plan concepts distractions were so bad nobody except the deaf could concentrate adequatly to present good enough results for Mt.Lawley to qualify a top spot on the WA's top schools list.
But the Speaker at the Vic meeting was on top of this problem his solution was to encase the maths classes in a huge glass cube using frosted glass to eye level when standing clear glass above the ceiling also clear glass the cube was to be mounted on caster wheels so it could move around the building in keep with open plan concept no more questions were allowed so the issue of Airconditioning and safe ventilation in a mobile cube within a cube could not be canvassed plus
terrorism , fire ,smoke and asphyxiants , refrigeration gasses etc.
How did the famous Schools and Uni's of the UK make out with none of this Madness , were all their graduats Fakes ?
Posted by Garum Masala, Wednesday, 2 February 2011 11:34:01 AM
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Yes Garum, most of this stuff does nothing more than provide “work” for a few academics, so absolutely nothing useful. The best thing for the kids would be the removal of the academic speed bumps being put in their way.

40 years ago a kid aged 15 would leave school after 3 years high school, with an intermediate certificate. This armed them with all the math & writing they needed to go off to TAFE equivalent, & become a tradesman. Today we have kids with a “higher achiever” rating in math & physics at the HSC, who cannot do that same math. I know a couple of people who make a good living coaching tradesman math to these year 12 graduates, trying to get through carpentry & plumbing.

One of the problems with our current system is the terrible shock it is for kids, when they actually have to pass an exam, for the first time.

The P&C at our local high school, [1700 kids, 25 Km from Brisbane suburbs] took over the "in-school" apprenticeship scheme. This was an extension of the work experience program, but the school staff weren't too interested. The kids spent one day a week working in "real" employment, with some trade training.

After a couple of years we had lots of kids, & enthusiastic employers, our main problem was transport, with most work in the city, & the TAFE 50Km away.

Despite missing a day each week of school, most of these kids improved their school work. When asked why, the kids didn't know of course, but many said that school work was just easier, now they were "working".

Some of these kids were the disruptive element, who did not want to be at school. As one teacher put it, these troublesome kids now just disappeared, & were no longer noticeable. May I suggest Katrina, try making these kids work for something, it tends to stop them feeling sorry for themselves.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 2 February 2011 11:40:50 AM
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I've also thought the goal-setting by government was actually arse-up: we should first get the students engaged through adopting the right curricula and methodologies; then it might be much easier to keep them learning so that 90% retention to Year 12 is not only feasible but productive.

Apart from that though, I agree that different learning styles should be equally accepted and teaching adapted to suit them. But I would go much further than other posters have so far hinted at. While there are differences between the learning styles of the "average" boy and the "average" girl, there are even greater variations irrespective of the sex of the student.

Looking at sensory modalities, for instance, we find that learners (and teachers) tend to have leanings towards either visual, auditory or tactile-kinaesthetic learning. This has been known for a long time but programming and methodology in most schools still does not reflect it.

Pelican's idea of varying uni-sex and co-ed settings is very pertinent. It can make a real difference to the participation and attainment levels.

One startling bit of personal experience is worth mentioning. After 25 years of teaching in co-ed schools I despaired of ever attracting more than five or six boys to join a choir of 50 voices, and even then half or more of them would drop out after a few months. Then I began teaching in an all-boys school and found I had to audition about ninety boys to get a choir of about 30! They all wanted to participate, whereas the presence of girls in the co-ed setting made them too self-conscious. I and other teachers have found examples like this to be widespread -- and not only in music.

I understand perfectly what Pelican is saying about "integration" of children with special learning or behaviour disorders. Special support teachers (who stay with the individual child in whole-class settings)are often at least a partial solution. But if integration is going to be mandatory, then so should be expenditure on provision of support teachers.
Posted by crabsy, Wednesday, 2 February 2011 12:08:32 PM
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Setting ambitious education goals is great – but what do they mean?

COntinued from earlier post.

So sadly we lost our wonderful true "Community" School with its education bonuses , one example was "The Production" a truely amazing effort where extensive stage sets of incredible complexity all built in school usually only seen in capital cities plus their own Full Orchestra ! the hall was packed out as was the parking outside , this was REAL COMMUNITY WORKING not any more , didn't suit the Crazie Educrats, tragic but true .
Time has moved on we have had an Education Revolution so what have we got 3 sad years on we have two Sunbury Industrial Area sheds 1960 style cost I don't know probably Millions plus , see back pages of the Weekly Times for examples of Galvanised ripple Iron (tin fence galv. iron that nobody uses ...to ugly) Sheds and note the prices , I think the bare shed would cost a farmer outside the City boundries building regulations about $20.000
for costs and examples of Galvanised Iron Sheds - weekly Times.
Posted by Garum Masala, Wednesday, 2 February 2011 12:42:39 PM
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vanna
I understand your points but I don't believe schools should be "speaking" out for or against marriage. These sit in the personal issues IMO (like religion) and not the place of teachers to push any particular agenda in those areas.

Regarding sociologists I wasn't advocating them for the education system but to make more expert comments than I can on how to reduce disadvantage in the home which has roll-on effects at school.
Posted by pelican, Wednesday, 2 February 2011 5:16:56 PM
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With 2 children achieving high grades at university and still not in well paying jobs while my one who isn't tertiary trained earning close to $100,000 per year at the age of 21 it raises many questions either about the usefulness of uni education or the need for it.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 2 February 2011 5:59:17 PM
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Pelican,
Education is connected to wealth and family income. In our feminist country, it is difficult to get adequate statistics, but here are some of the statistics regards child poverty from the UK, US and Canada.

Poverty rates are highest for families headed by single women, particularly if they are black or Hispanic. In 2009, 29.9 percent of households headed by single women were poor, while 16.9 percent of households headed by single men and 5.8 percent of married-couple households lived in poverty.

http://www.npc.umich.edu/poverty/

A half of all people in lone parent families are in low income. This is more than twice the rate for couples with children.

http://www.poverty.org.uk/05/index.shtml

Although the low income rate of female lone-parent families with one earner was about four times the average for all families (32% versus 8.4%), they were much better off than lone mothers without earnings; 86% of the latter experienced low income in 2003.

On the other hand, the low income rate for lone-parent families headed by men halved since 1996, when it stood at 25%. By 2003, it went down to 12.6%.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/75-202-x/2003000/4071474-eng.htm

While teachers keep asking for more and more taxpayer funding (find a teacher who doesn’t), they will also say that the socio-economic background of the child affects their education.

What they don’t mention is the main reason why so many children have a socio-economic background that negatively affects their education.

The number one reason is children coming from single parent families and broken homes, but this cannot be mentioned for fear of upsetting the numerous feminists now spread throughout the education system.

So instead of getting to the core of the problem, we just have articles like this one asking for more and more taxpayer funding.
Posted by vanna, Wednesday, 2 February 2011 7:32:31 PM
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vanna
I am not going to be drawn in to a debate about feminism in this important conversation about education. Australia is not a "feminist" country unless by that you mean both men and women now have access to opportunities. That is true, after that it is up to individual skill, determination and a bit of luck thrown in.

I agree with you that poverty and single income families do worse. Many Hispanic and African American families in the US have their men incarcerated, some have also abandoned their responsibilities and there are a high proportion of those women escaping domestic violence. There are also many single fathers in those communities (compared to others) where mothers have done a runner or have drug issues.

Not sure how to fix those problems, indeed improving support and access to training/education, child care (if required) and housing for at-risk families might go some way to reducing disadvantage.

Part of the problem as I see it, is the idea of 'aspirational' education. One does not need a Degree for many occupations but now it has become the 'standard' measure which places pressure on students and has meant a lowering of standards overall. Even a Barista (coffee maker) now needs a diploma when these sorts of jobs were all on-the-job training. Sometimes on-the-job is the best way to learn.

Some high schools now have a trade stream which encourages boys in particular who are good with their hands (and would otherwise not remain in school) to continue to at least Yr11.

I am all for 'educated' societies but education is also about life experience and hard work. It is not just about gaining a Degree or finishing Yr12.
Posted by pelican, Wednesday, 2 February 2011 9:17:43 PM
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Pelican
Many jobs now require multi-skilling, and in fact the lat manufacturing company I worked in, you were required to have everything for a forklift ticket to clerical skills, and required to carry out breakdown maintenance and routine maintenance on the equipment you were operating.

As equipment becomes more high tech, more diverse skills are required, and you may be required to program that equipment if it is PLC driven, and also maintain that equipment.

I personally object to schools pushing boys into trade work at an early age, as I know that it is best for students to go as far as possible in their education before they get a job.

As for wealth and education, they are very much related, and someone who is poor and living in poverty does not have much chance for a good education.

You will note that about 50% of children born in the UK are now born outside of marriage, (something feminists must be ecstatic about), but estimates are that about 30% of children in the UK are now living in poverty.

In Australia about 30% of children are born outside of marriage, and the % is increasing, with about 20% of children now living in poverty.

It is unlikely that schools for disadvantaged children will turn that tide.
Posted by vanna, Thursday, 3 February 2011 7:00:01 AM
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vanna
There is no doubt there is a connection between poverty and access to education.

Children might be born outside of marriage but that does not mean they do not have two loving parents who care for them in many cases. I know a few long term defacto couples who have never married (one couple did much later) who have successfully raised children, but of course most people do still get married.

I am not sure why you think feminists would applaud the idea of children being born outside or inside marriage. It is a personal choice, nothing to do with feminism.

What is a woman to do if she finds herself pregnant and the father wants nothing to do with her or the child? Not much she can do about it, and she will still have to endure the censure of others for being a single mother or demonised by others if she chooses abortion. No win situation really, but it has to be her choice. Same for a man who might find himself a single father if the mother does a runner, he won't be castigated or 'blamed' for lack of a partner in the same way but it is hard work raising a child on your own.

The issue is how does society support those families to ensure the kids don't become too disadvantaged? The most disadvantaged kids at the school my daughter went to were not from single parent families. They were from lower socio-economic families with one or two 'problem' parents ie. dysfunctional. Marriage is no guarantee of perfect parenting.
Posted by pelican, Sunday, 6 February 2011 6:35:29 PM
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