Joe Lane,
How can you imagine yourself to be progressive when you need to resort to such insults? Very childish.

"Grapefruit" ? :) I must say.. that was creative. But Grateful.. I don't find it an insult... I see it like "Jonesy" for Jones..get over yourself please.

Pericles.. good lad.. I'll take that one on the left cheek and offer you the right.. in this case, I confess..I didn't check the fertility rate.

But your: "True to form, you never check your facts." is in fact flaming.. I generally do check my facts.. given the number of posts I've done.. the number of times you've demonstrated a weakness there is pretty small.

But now.....like my hero the Count of Monte Christo.. It's my turn to swing this around on you..and deal you a loving 'slap' of a factual nature.

1/ The Age of the 'troubled youth' on Tunisia's streets ? 18-30 I'd guess.

2/ What was the fertility rate 20 years ago when they were BORN ?

1988 Fertility=4 for the 20 yr olds
1978 Fertility=6 for the 30 yr olds

The fertility rate NOW is 2.1 that only effects the future generation not the present.

So...on reflection..I withdraw my offer of 'the other cheek' and in turn give you a stern 'Woe to you oh Pharisee' type rebuke :)

Not at all.

>>But your: "True to form, you never check your facts." is in fact flaming<<

It is an observation that I can justify many times over. I have lost count of the number of times I have had to pull you up over some ridiculous and outlandish claims on topics you know nothing about.

I'm still waiting to hear about your Scottish ancestry and those family tombs, by the way.

>>I think I'll send you to Inverness for some re-education. It will begin with a trip to my forebears tomb "Fortrose Cathedral" where you can ponder why it lies in ruins<<

Or was that also just more of your usual bluster.

Incidentally the excuse for your 'breeding like rabbits' jibe is thin, to the point of complete transparency.

>>Firstly... no one in Government seems to have suggested to the 'breeding like rabbits' populace that any more than 3 children max is ultimately dangerous for the exact reasons in Part A above.. LOTs of people NO jobs.<<

Given you are now trying to defend that position by quoting historical birth rates,

>>The fertility rate NOW is 2.1 that only effects the future generation not the present<<

...it makes a nonsense of your claim that "no one in Government seems to have suggested..."

Clearly, they have.

Typical, though, that you felt the need to try to find some retrospective loophole.

Flaming? I don't think so. Merely trying to keep you a little bit honest.

Just a little bit.

The follow is part of an article written by Yvonne Ridley
Wednesday, 29 November 2006

QUOTE
...Well it is high time Ben Ali and his revolting crew of craven ministers and hyprocrites are exposed and so I hope this column is copied and published elsewhere.

It is important that Westerners learn about the cruelty and brutality of this leader. Perhaps they will think twice about heading out to the North African country to holiday now that they know not far from the postcard images there is real misery and torture.

The Holy Quran has been banned and desecrated in the cages and dungeons where prisoners of conscience are beaten if they dare to pray outside of allotted times.

...........
Like every dictator, his time will come and the sooner the better.

If he seriously wants the support of his people, their respect and a long term future as leader then he has to seriously change his style of government.

The first thing he can do is empty the prisons of political prisoners which accounts for around 30,000 of the 10 million population and start working alongside his political opponents, instead of trying to silence them.

As a priority I would also call on him to apologise to all of my Tunisian sisters and return their veils so they can wear them once again without fear in schools, universities, offices and factories.

I find it difficult to believe this man could hate the hijab so much that he even ripped it off the heads of pregnant women. I was astounded to learn that no one wearing a hijab is allowed into a maternity ward or hospital.

His deliberate plotting against Islam will come back to haunt him either through revolution on the streets of Tunisia or in the Hereafter. Personally speaking, I prefer revolution - bring it on!

http://yvonneridley.org/yvonne-ridley/articles/torture-tyrants-and-tunisia-4.html
ENDQUOTE

..and so it came to pass! :-)

Yeah, sorry Grateful, that was pretty childish :( No offense intended. Back to topic ....

Yes, you're right: even during this past week in Iraq, 150 ordinary people who happen to be Muslim have been the targets of bombings, mostly Shi'ite Muslims probably killed by Sunni groups, probably including supporters of fundamentalist groups such as al Qa'ida.

I'm sure that, like most Christians, most Muslims wear their faith fairly lightly, amongst other identities, while a minority takes it all much more literally, as do many Christian fundamentalists. And some of those take it a few steps further, by a process of crazy logic: that, if the Book is perfectly correct and the word of god, etc., then nothing should exist that conflicts with it, nobody should be outside its scope or its rules. So whoever persists in staying outside of its scope is not worthy of living and 'therefore' it is the duty of true believers to extirpate them from the face of god's earth. I guess that's you and me, Grateful :)

Yes, free speech would include the right of such people to talk about, promote and advocate strict observance of religious rules, but I don't think that it extends further, to exhortations to punish or exterminate non-believers.

Joe

On the subject of the three-way struggle between conservatives (bourgeoisie, landowners, patronage networks, mafias), progressives (unions, women's groups, students' groups, genuine-left-wing, social-democrats, socialists, communists, anarchists), and reactionaries (Islamists, pseudo-left), this article in today's Australian is highly relevant:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/tunisian-women-fear-islamist-return/story-e6frg6so-1225993882511

In the real dirty world of power, choices have to be made: should the progressives side with ANYBODY to overthrow conservative and/or corrupt governments like ben Ali's, or Boutelfika's, or Mubarak's, or Berisha's, etc.?

Does one ultimately side with snakes (conservatives) or with vultures (Islamists) ?

Do progressive forces need to side with any other anti-government forces, including Islamist reactionaries ? The tragedy of Mediterranean politics seems to be that the progressive forces are never strong enough to carry out changes on their own.

But let's hope that this time, it's a different ball-game :)

Joe