Foyle stated
<<You comment about the morality and ethics of the western world and atheists. Let me make a point about ethics and morality and to do so I will quote from Sam Harris’s latest book “The Moral Landscape” where he states, based on studies,....>>

Sam Harris may be good at correlation but can say very little about causation. For serious scholarsship, I refer you to Robert Barro (world’s leading economist and has been a strong candidate for nobel prize for the last 10 years) and Rachel M. McCleary (http://www.nber.org/digest/nov03/w9682.html)

<< The authors turn next to the assessment of how differences in religiosity affect economic growth. For given religious beliefs, increases in church attendance tend to reduce economic growth. In contrast, for given church attendance, increases in some religious beliefs -- notably heaven, hell, and an afterlife -- tend to increase economic growth. In other words, economic growth depends mainly on the extent of believing relative to belonging. The authors also find some indication that the fear of hell is more potent for economic growth than the prospect of heaven. Their statistical analysis allows them to argue that these estimates reflect causal influences from religion to economic growth and not the reverse.

Barro and McCleary suggest that higher rates of religious beliefs stimulate growth because they help to sustain aspects of individual behavior that enhance productivity. They believe that higher church attendance depresses growth because it signifies a greater use of resources by the religion sector. However, that suppression of growth is tempered by the extent to which church attendance leads to greater religious beliefs, which in turn encourages economic growth. >>

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Along the same lines, McCleary summarises the research as follows: (http://www.hoover.org/publications/policy-review/article/5729#4)

<<To turn once again to the question I posed at the outset: Is religion detrimental to economic growth? Perhaps John Wesley’s conclusion that economic growth will decrease religiosity need not be absolutely the case. If people spend too much time on productive activities relative to religious activities, then they will become less religious. If children are not taught religious values and beliefs, then they themselves will not be religious, and, perhaps, not productive. Furthermore, if societal expectations accompanying educational attainment are not met, people will resort to nonproductive activities, such as crime and terrorism. With nonproductive time on their hands and grievance against society, people will engage in destructive behavior. However, a virtuous cycle occurs when people believe relative to belonging. That is, people hold religious beliefs but do not spend enormous amounts of resources (time, income, talents) on their religion. Finally, religious beliefs that promote hard work, thrift, and honesty can be found across the world’s major religions. The key question is: How does a society promote these values and in what circumstances does it, intentionally or unintentionally, discard them?>>

Having being raised by atheists i can testify to the propensity towards destructive behaviour of those raised without religious belief!

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And of course you just have to look at the papers to see the impact:

(http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/dangerous-underage-drinking-on-rise-20110211-1aqjp.html)

<<EVERY day in NSW, on average, three children get so drunk they require an ambulance, figures obtained by the Herald reveal.

In one year, paramedics were called more than 1000 times to treat alcohol-related problems such as violent vomiting and loss of consciousness in people aged under 18 - most of whom required hospital treatment.

The child was 12 or younger in at least 16 of those cases, according to an analysis of call-outs provided by the NSW Ambulance service.

Advertisement: Story continues below The under-18s treated between July 2009 and June 2010 made up about 10 per cent of the overall numbers treated for alcohol sickness, a spokesman for the service said.

The figures, which do not include call-outs for indirect alcohol problems such as falls or fights, were a frightening ''tip of the iceberg'', said Mike Daube, the director of the McCusker Centre for Action on Alcohol and Youth.

"It's even more worrying than it looks, given that it is only the very worst cases - those children who are utterly, disastrously drunk and at immediate risk," he said. "What kind of a society are we turning into where children under 12 are taken to hospital in an ambulance because of their drinking?"

Per capita alcohol use was at an all-time high, and research shows 80 per cent of alcohol consumption among 14- to 24-year-olds was done dangerously.>>

Foyle, in this context, I repeat my suggestion:

Perhaps you can offer what you would regard as the key insights/guide posts to ethical conduct. I can offer some insights i draw from Islamic scholarship.

Would you like to use drug and alcohol abuse as an application? This shouldn't be too hard given your previous claim to ethical supremacy.

salaams

Foyle,

Just to be sure the message is received loud and clear:

Atheism is destroying the values and beliefs that would prevent many young Australians from going off the rails and loosing big chunks, if not the whole, of their productive lives.

How big a sacrifice would it be for adults to quit the drink when we all know that this would give parents the moral authority to tell their kids to do the same. Just about every non-Muslims i know says its impossible. In Islam its a reality arising from living life with a sound heart and proper guidance.

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Grateful,
As someone who has never been one to drink large quantities of alcohol I am not the one to ask questions on alcohol abuse.

Neither my parents nor my children have abused alcohol and I like you object to behaviour of some parents and their children. However I know of no non-theist believer in humanism or rationalism, which is what I am, who would stone someone to death over an "honour" matter, or for breach of some religious "law", (or what usually is just a human weakness). Harris in his recent book has an excellent comparison of the honour society common in some Muslim countries and the situation which applies where non-theism and enlightened thinking is common. I know where I would prefer to live.

In an over populated world wasting depleting resources I do not worship growth, particularly in the prosperous western world. I read the article at the website you quoted on this matter and it really shows that religious people do not really understand some of the problems facing the human population.

I am a proponent of teaching children to think clearly and to undertake for themselves the hard task of developing their own ethical concepts. Religious indoctrination tends to prevent that happening and leaves young people who reject the nonsense of religion without a foundation on which to build an examined life.

You took a thousand or so words to say nothing that I find worthwhile so I won't be even reading anything else you post.

Once again the discussion has pretty much degenerated into a “Does so too! Does not neither!” argument with no sign of any participant changing their views even marginally.
To take the title of this piece literally, I decided to try it.
I'm currently in a bit of a financial predicament. We recently decided to try and do our small bit for the environment and the looming energy crisis by starting a small online business in hydroponics; encouraging people to grow their own (is giving myself a free plug permissible? -nakedhydroponics.com-) but sadly, people are yet to break down any doors to get to us.
I have several options before me. Lying sleeplessly staring at an invisible ceiling one night, I decided to experiment with prayer. I started with “OK God” and proceeded to lay out the various options.
The answer was immediate and unequivocal.
Does this 'prove' God's existence to me? Not at all. It proves I knew all along what I have to do; for various reasons the 'right' course just isn't my first preference. I think by according one side of the argument to an outsider (me v. God, rather than me v. me) I was able to judge the merits of the argument more objectively.
So for me the power of prayer is quite strong.
But I'm still an (at least de facto) atheist.