Foyle, you said
<<You missed much of my point. The HIV virus jumped between the green monkey and humans because we are closely related mammals even though our ways parted from a common ancestor millions of years ago. If there was an omnipotent god he could have designed us sufficiently different from other species that such events didn't happen. >>

There is a point that you are missing. If we had followed Allah’s guidance the virus would not have spread. Those of us who do follow His guidance are not at risk of contracting HIV. That is the lesson i draw from the spread of HIV. Similar lessons can be drawn from the increase in alcohol and drug abuse and sexual violence and complete disrespect for woman through their depiction as objections of sexual gatification. From the Muslim countries the lessons are different and related to the disgrace/humiliation meted out to those who turn away from the deen (Islamic way of life).

Hi Grateful,
what about David Attenborough's example, of a parasite that burrows into eyeballs, causing excruciating pain and eventual blindness.
Apparently, it is most prevalent in African countries, I believe, and so far has shown no preferences regarding a victim's religion.
Would you describe this as an example of a loving, merciful creator?

grateful,

“In the hearts of Muslims” is subjective tripe. This is argument without proving the premise.

Your apologetics for Islam are nothing new. Muslims, to a greater extent than people of many other religions, compartmentalise narrow topics to disallow contradistinctions to surface. Sorry to let you know, but nothing is “off topic” when evaluating propositions to see if they are valid or not.

The AFA receives many emails from Muslims and they all follow the same pattern. Why not write to us and allow one of our Islamic experts to respond.

Just the questions I have posed point out the ludicrousness of entertaining the notion that an alleged god whose words are responsible, should have any sway on anything to do with a sane, just and equitable society. Unsustainable past glories have gone, only religious oppression remains.

No one worships a tyrant god because they want to. Fear of reprisal or expectation of reward by the tyrant god is not freewill. Such is the power of cultural indoctrination.

You are not a special person ordained by the alleged Allah to promote his alleged ideas. You don’t differ from the rest of humanity, except in delusion. The idea of supernatural realms/deities is all in your head, possibly implanted in impressionable youth.

My suggestion, which no doubt will be unheeded, is to get your head out of the Koran and think for yourself.

An alleged god did not influence the Koran; it is the work of humans. Unless you have some universally accepted evidence proving conclusively that, I’m wrong about this.

Please answer the initial questions I posed and include a couple left out. How are Atheists and Atheist organisations treated in Islamic countries? Can you name the said Atheist organisations for me? Thanks.

David

Foyle you wrote:

<<You didn't disprove Epicurus with your examples. For example why did you break the hypothetical women's nose? Wasn't it because a supposedly omnipotent god didn't take a suitable alternative action or in reality isn't omnipotent and really doesn't exist.>>

Gratitude and patience are key attributes of the believer. It follows from what i said before that in fact for the believer problems/trials/tribulations are a mercy from Allah. Allah wants of us that we trust/rely/worship Him (and Him alone) and we do so willingly (without compulsion). Without problems very few of us, if anyone, would be inclined towards Him. We would simply attribute our good fortune to ourselves (ring a bell?)
Consider the following sayings of the Prophet
“God keeps testing the person whom he loves, until that person has no more sins to be forgiven for. (Narrated by Imam Bukhari)
“Strange are the ways of a believer, for there is good in every affair of his; for if he has an occasion to feel delight, he thanks (God); thus there is good in it. And if faces troubles and hardship, he endures it patiently; there is good in it for him.”(Narrated by Imam Muslim).

For Muslims there is a Hereafter and we rely on Allah’s mercy that we enter Paradise. We are also told that our time in this life is a test and when we do actually die those things which appear so durable (the houses, cars, yachts, etc) will be left behind. What we will take with us will be the most ephemeral of things: our deeds, good and bad.
cont..

cont..

So for the lady who broke her nose (it was an accident by the way), yes of course Allah could have prevented it. But can it be said that He is malevolent. No, for the lady it is an opportunity for her to respond with patience and reflect on the fact that if I hadn’t of knocked her to the ground she would have crossed the road and been hit by a truck! If my intention was to prevent her from being hit then it would have been a good deed. If my intention was to hit an old lady then it would have been a bad deed. Nevertheless, irrespective of my intention the test for the lady would be whether she was grateful towards Allah for saving her life and patient in adversity.

For the believer illness and adversity are always opportunities. This world can be likened to an “exam room” and we are willing to put up with the nerves and writers cramp for what it means after the invigilator has declared “pens down”.

AJ,

My apologies for offending you with my claim that you ignored my best arguments. It wasn’t my intention to offend.

As I posted last weekend, personal time constraints prevent me from making any more substantive posts here. I was happy for you to have the last word; I only responded again to point out my view that you didn’t do justice to the arguments that I’d made.

Perhaps it is telling that we have both accused each other of similar things, perhaps there are inherent problems with the format we’re using. Either way, thanks again for the discussion