The fact that the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church demands celibacy would have made it an attractive career choice for homosexual men. Not only do they get to dress up in those attractive vestments no questions are asked about the fact that they are unmarried. At a time when homosexuality was a criminal offence, when one could not survive socially if one were openly gay the Church was one attractive outlet for gay men. This is not to claim that all priests are gay but rather than it should come as no surprise if gay men should be attracted to the Church. This could also account for the homophobic attitudes implicit in the Church - after all if you had to deny your sexuality would you not want to ensure that everyone else was equally miserable?

As there are many Priests in heterosexual relationships over 30 years. Not something they wish or have chosen to advertise!

Most interesting.

Forget the book's title. It was probably just the publisher's marketing folk, responding to the challenge "give me something that will stand out".

But the article itself does give pause for thought.

Along the lines of: which came first - the vow of celibacy or the homosexual priest?

Sure, a celibate life may be superficially attractive to a sexually confused -or simply fearful - individual. But equally, the imposition of celibacy by the religion itself is an attractive option for a classic command-and-control movement that demands unflinching obedience from its middle management.

But I suspect it may be even more complex than that.

Celibacy is, let's face it, a relatively unnatural human condition. Those who practice it - being totally devoid of first-hand experience (no giggling at the back please) - must live in a permanent state of ignorance of the power and responsibilities involved in being a sexual partner.

Thus, it is not beyond the realm of possibilities that celibate priests are not actually in a position to recognize homosexual tendencies in themselves. Hence, a very real ability to persuade themselves that they cannot possibly be so inclined.

The charitable view, towards which articles like this tend to encourage in me, is that many of these people do not possess the same ability as the rest of us to determine whether they are Arthur or Martha. If a priest finds himself attracted to a bloke, there are no internal voices that say "hey, that's gay"; with no identifiable emotional signals to work with, recognizing sexual attraction of any kind would be almost impossible.

So the "is the Pope gay" argument disappears, simply on the basis that he has no internal signposts that tell him one way or another.

That's not an excuse, by the way, for the rabid homophobia of the religion as a whole. But it might explain why it will take many generations before the Church retreats from its position.

If there are any celibates out there - religiously so, or simply voluntarily so - it would be interesting to hear their views.

I've recently read the book by Dr Paul
Collins, called, "Believers: Does Australian
Catholicism Have A Future?".

According to Dr Collins:

" Generations of gay priests have ministered to
both sexes successfully in the Catholic Church."
Collins tell us that -

"John Boswell's fascinating book, "Christianity,
Social Tolerance and Homosexuality," argues that
from about the 5th century onwards religious
orders provided homosexually-oriented men and
women with a safe heaven from an intolerant and
dangerous world."

As Collins points out,

"Contemporary estimates of the number of gay priests
and seminarians vary widely and the simple fact is
nobody knows how many there are, but what is
clear is that there is a much higher proportion of
gays in the present-day priesthood than in the
general population. Part of the issue is that a
large number of straight priests have left the
active ministry over the last 30 years to get married.
Also a lot of gay priests have been ordained over the
last three decades."

However, I very much doubt that we'll ever know
what the Pope's sexual orientation was/is,
as that subject is one that few people within the church
want discussed. Simply we'll never know unless the
Pope himself (highly unlikely) or someone close to him,
tells us.

The LRB reviewed this book with the title: The Pope Wears Prada. For me the interest in both the book and subsequent discussion lies not in the sexual orientation of Catholic Clergy but rather in the inherent contradiction in a religion that is stridently homophobic and yet provides comfort and shelter to gay men and women.

Some years ago I read an amusing book called "Sex Lives of the Popes".

Clearly the Vatican has a very kinky history! As long as the true
believers can be sold their ticket to heaven, the Vatican will
keep cashing in and living it up in pomp and splendour.

As to Ratzinger, who knows how his sex drive plays out? Clearly
it does not vanish, when people become priests, bishops etc.

Perhaps its just all wet dreams, but I doubt it.

As long as there are millions of suckers who take these people
seriously, the Vatican's future is assured.

Dear Yabby,

Now that's not fair.

Catholicism has remarkable staying power,
an ability to survive unmatched by any
contemporary institution. If you've been
around for 2000 years you will have learned
a few tricks.

This doesn't mean of course that the church will
be perfect of that parts of it won't wither and
die, or that it won't make mistakes.

The church will require genuine leadership and
a willingness to confront both the difficulties and
opportunities that the church faces.

And my hope - is that it will be able to do precisely
that.

BAYGON, there’s something much more fundamental at play than having a good excuse to put on a frock: the need for personal safety. In order to understand how this works, you need to get inside the head of a kid growing up catholic and gay. For this kid, the world sends daily reminders that he (or she) is a disgusting, sinful creature. Worse, he’s alone, unable to discuss his feelings with anyone else. This isolation makes it even more terrifying, forcing the conclusion that life ahead will be lonely and miserable.

Then along comes one of the church’s recruiters, with a vision of a useful and GOOD life. If the kid can just push aside his sexual desires, he can earn the respect of his family and peers, and spend his life doing good things for god and humanity.

When the most oblique references to homosexuality are met by everyone around you with open hostility, when you’ve been fed the lie that your sexuality has made you disgusting, when at fourteen, fifteen, sixteen years old you’re convinced that you’re alone in your condition, then a religious vocation seems like a miraculous rescue from a tormented future.

Those damned recruiters used to show up precisely when you were feeling most vulnerable and alone, and they were very persistent. (Fortunately the world has changed since I lived out this scenario in the early seventies. Growing up gay is still scary, but in quite different ways to how it was then.)

Continued

From previous

Regardless of their motive for joining up in the first place, I think that most individuals who take on a religious vocation live honourable and worthy lives, and whatever their orientation, they manage keep to the bargain they’ve made with their sexuality. I would guess that many even forget the painful years of wondering about their sexual orientation (resulting in a lack of signposts, as Pericles speculates). This might be regarded as a major imperfection by many, but ultimately, who is without imperfections? In my experience most priests, nuns and religious brothers are indeed good, respectable and well-meaning people.

Quattrocchi's book has certainly prompted a lot of interesting reviews. The LRB one http://www.lrb.co.uk/v32/n16/colm-toibin/among-the-flutterers shows great insight, and like Seccombe’s review, Andrew Sullivan's http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/08/the-pope-is-not-gay.html also brings good humour to the topic.

This wave of insightful comment has continued into the current discussion. We seem to have found a peaceful, thoughtful corner of OLO.

There's a lot of wisdom and compassion in (most of) these posts, and it’s greatly appreciated.

Most people will tell you "Brokeback Mountain" was a movie "about gay cowboys". Yet, whilst this is superficially true the full message is far more powerful.

It speaks of the consequences of denying one's true nature. Heath Ledger's character, Ennis Del Mar, compartmentalised his love for other's in an attempt to rationalise his bisexuality.

Ultimately he destroyed all losing his family and his lover, Jack Twist, only facing reality years later. Alone. A shadow of what his potential offered.

One must strive to not see The Holy See as a veritable factory buoying the ruination of so many lives by condoning self-denial. It is engaged in the promotion of low self esteem, anxiety, self loathing, discrimination, suicide and social division.

Yet, the default walk on respect afforded them and middle ages superstition persists. I wonder how we'd react if Allied Generals in Afghanistan planned troop deployment and battle strategy based upon the spilling of chicken entrails?

*For this kid, the world sends daily reminders that he (or she) is a disgusting, sinful creature.*

That is the core of the problem. The Catholic Church creates it
in the first place, by brainwashing little kids.

Woulfe I attended a seminary for two years. I ultimately left when the full implications of a celibate life sunk in - in my case it was women that swung the balance. Subsequently I have become aware that some stayed on because women were not an attraction and making a commitment to celibacy seemed the best way to deal with one's sexuality.
However, by no means all who stayed were closet gays but one would expect that the proportion of gay priests would be higher within the church then the general community simply because sexuality is not just about sex. If you are gay then I would imagine it is easier to live a fulfilling celibate life in the company of other males.
In the main I would argue that the vast majority of clergy are caring compassionate people the current crusade to vilify all clergy because of the evil committed by some is simply te manifestation of yet more blind prejudice.

Dear Baygon,

Speaking as a Catholic, I agree with much of what
you've posted.

Dr Paul Collins in his book, "Believers..."
tells us that the requirement of celibacy as a
precondition for ordination was imposed on the clergy
of the western church in the 11th century for reasons
that make absolutely no sense today. Even then it had
nothing to do with improving the spiritual or moral
life of priests. Celibacy was used in the 11th century
as a way of maintaining a primitive form of ritual
purity, and of preventing the alienation of church
property by laity and stopping priest-fathers from
passing on their parishes to their priest-sons."

As Collins tell us, "Nowadays the requirement of
celibacy is seen for what it is: a requirement of
church law that could be changed today. But despite
the massive shortage of priests and the fact that a
large majority of the Australian bishops would ordain
properly trained married men immediately, they are
hamstrung by Popes and Roman authorities who stolidly
refuse to face up to the problem of the shortage of
clergy."

Part of the problem is also as Sydney Bishop Geoffrey
Robinson states:

"I believe that the Catholic church is in a prison...
It constructed the prison for itself, locked itself
in and threw away the key. The prison is the prison
of not being able to be wrong... Far too often the
Catholic church believed that it had such a level of
divine guidance that it did not need the right to
be wrong... even when clear evidence emerges that
earlier decisions were conditioned by their own time
and that the arguments for them are not as strong
as they were once thought to be."

I'm still optimistic that the church will recover,
and that serious change is a possibility.
I also believe that the sexuality of a priest is
not an issue - it's how well he performs his duties
that matters. Catholicism has both strengths and
weaknesses as it faces its decision and its destiny.