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The Forum > Article Comments > Ethics classes won’t stop the extremists > Comments

Ethics classes won’t stop the extremists : Comments

By Cathy Byrne, published 24/9/2010

Fuller exposure to religious education would benefit all Australian students

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Mac,

I am well aware that in the real world it's not so perfect, but are you saying we haven't seen oppression of religious / racial minorities in Australia, the US, or other liberal democracies, with law enforcement looking on? It's been a continuous feature in Australia since white man arrived. First (and still) the indigenous, the Irish (Ned Kelly being the most famous I guess), European migrants, Vietnamese and so on. Now it's the Sudanese and Muslims' turn.

Here we have it again, pots and kettles.

There are websites that contain similar accusations pointed at Western countries as found in your links. I won't bother posting any of these links because they are just as worthless as yours.

And, again, Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world. Despite a very small minority of hard-line Muslim extremists who are given a voice only because it sells newspapers, freedom of religion is very much the norm, and Western culture is very much embraced. The overwhelming majority of Indonesians despise the actions of the terrorists (Bali-bombers etc).

Leigh,

the "smirk" appeared before the deletion. I read your floundering response and it quite literally made me laugh.
Posted by TrashcanMan, Monday, 27 September 2010 10:27:44 AM
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[Deleted for arguing moderation and user suspended.]
Posted by Severin, Monday, 27 September 2010 2:11:10 PM
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[Deleted for arguing about moderation decisions on the forum.]
Posted by Leigh, Monday, 27 September 2010 3:08:45 PM
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TrashcanMan,

Of course no society is perfect, however my argument is of degree, not of kind. How many mosques have been destroyed here? Any forced conversions to Christianity, how many kuffars attempted to murder their daughters because they wanted to marry a Moslem? So your PC 'pot and kettle' argument is specious and so is your attempt to equate prejudice in Australia with the oppression of minorities in Islamic nations.
A thought experiment for you,who would you rather be, a Moslem in Australia or a Coptic Christian in
Egypt,a Christian in Pakistan, an atheist in Iran or a communist in Indonesia,oh I forgot, they were all massacred in the 1960s by Moslem fanatics.

As to Indonesia,I'll bet that in 20 years that nation will resemble Iran.

So continue with your PC wishful thinking that Islam is not a dangerous authoritarian ideology.
Posted by mac, Monday, 27 September 2010 3:59:57 PM
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Mac,

"...there are few, if any, liberal democratic Moslem majority nations where religious minorities are safe to practise their beliefs. Can anyone name any?"

I named some, didn't I?

"Any forced conversions to Christianity (in Australia?)" you now ask.... Ummm.... yep, with child rape as an additional bonus to those early birds who got in before the 21st century. Have you not heard of the "stolen generation"? Are you a holocaust denier too?

Yes, many of the Muslim countries are backward, we have indeed progressed ahead of them in terms of human rights etc. Yes, the "degree" of oppression is an important factor. Yes, I'd rather be ANYONE living in Australia than, say, a non-Muslim in Saudi Arabia, or a Palestinian living in Palestine. Oh, sorry, that wasn't one of your examples. Australia turns a blind eye to the oppression and offences from Israel though, so does that mean we are all secretly wanting to join in too?

I don't disagree that these countries have growth ahead of them. But they are not behind because of their religion, they are behind because of economics, politics, geographics, history etc.

And we are not so far ahead, to be honest. It hasn't been so great being an indigenous Australian for the past 200+ years.

The point is, just because those countries are clearly behind in some areas, do we go backwards ourselves in the way we treat people, do we treat them as less than us? OR do we take the higher ground? Treat others as we would have ourselves treated...? etc. Do we lead by example or let them lead by example?

BTW, In Indonesia the communists were killed in '65 as part of a political coup, which had nothing to do with Muslim fanaticism and everything to do with Soeharto's desire for political power..

And your supposition that Indonesia will be like Iran in 20 years purely because they are majority Muslim is just ridiculous and illustrates a complete lack of familiarity with Indonesian politics and culture.
Posted by TrashcanMan, Monday, 27 September 2010 5:59:53 PM
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To me the value of ethics classes lies less in their providing a forum for comparative religious studies than an environment in which learning through dialogical reasoning can be practiced.

Religions ground their moral claims in metaphysical claims that cannot be verified but depend on faith. But ‘inter-faith’ dialogue presupposes a prior ‘faith’ in the dialogical process itself.

Humans naturally ask ethical and existential questions, so it would seem less fitting to this questioning to approach it from the perspective of providing answers (metaphysics), than of providing a space in which such questions themselves are welcomed, indeed encouraged, in an open ‘Community of Inquiry’. Only when answers are subject to further questions can they even be in a position to acquire any force.

A community of inquiry into ethical problems would not only provide a diversity of answers to any given question, but more importantly through this a better opportunity for any answer to gain or lose force according to the degree to which it can endure further questions.

Ethics classes adopt the model of P4C classes (Philosophy for Children), which not only provide a space in which ethics can be discussed theoretically, but in the process cultivate the ethics required in order for the logic of such discussion to function productively in practice.

In this way ethics classes have the capacity to avoid the very ‘moral relativism’ that worries those opposed to ethics classes. The ethos of a community of inquiry both operates on and cultivate values of tolerance and respect for others, taking all ideas seriously, and caring for the procedures that govern collaborative inquiry. In becoming accustomed to asking each other for reasons, and for building on each others ideas, students develop skills in thinking critically, creatively, caringly and collaboratively. Although students may be required to make up their own minds, through dialogue with others, the rigorous nature of the inquiry, and the emphasis on assessing reasons for positions means that, in practice, a community is very unlikely to come to the conclusion that 'anything goes'.

http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0018/001822/182207e.pdf
Posted by Drummerboy, Wednesday, 29 September 2010 8:55:40 PM
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