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The Forum > Article Comments > Necessity or luxury? > Comments

Necessity or luxury? : Comments

By Mirko Bagaric, published 17/9/2010

The government would be better off throwing $43 billion at encouraging people to stay off the internet.

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After reading Mirko Bagarics condemnation of our IT system and the consequences of more of it not less of it in the future, I have just a fleeting sense of guilt depositing a comment over the same internet facility.

It is refreshing to read a comment detailing the lack of clothing worn by the King.

How interesting to read Tony Windsor is IT illiterate. Now that would have to be a worry. It should serve though as an example to politicians controlling the new internet venture as a warning not to waste vast sums of money on Country electorates rolling out uncountable kilometres of fibre cable in order to service a very small minority of the population, many of whom will stubbornly remain IT illiterate.

In my experience, Windsor is pretty typical of the mindset of our country cousins that all too often resist progress and discomfort of life to stay stubbornly non-conformist.

IF there is a vote taken on the extravaganza of nationwide fibre cabling, mine goes to the party confining the cost to city areas only, where it will be used.
Posted by diver dan, Friday, 17 September 2010 8:41:19 AM
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<< … the internet pales into insignificance compared to the must haves of security, health, housing and education. >>

Agreed Mirko. The government has got its priorities askew.

But you’ve left out the most urgent thing of all – the need for our society to be weaned off of its utter dependence on oil. That doesn’t mean we have to get off it entirely, but we certainly do to the extent that we won’t suffer too greatly WHEN (not if) the price of oil starts to really rise and play havoc with our economic system on every level, from personal to international, with consequent massive social disruption and civil strife.

THIS should be our government’s top priority.

Yep, throwing $43b at fast internet is akin to the Easter Islanders just building more statues to appease their gods instead of learning to manage their resources more effectively when things started to get precarious.
Posted by Ludwig, Friday, 17 September 2010 8:41:50 AM
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have to agree with mirko, I suspect the ALP is trying to buy it's way to credibility with something that's hard to show didn't achieve what they say, in their parliamentary lifetime - it is of course a folly to spend that much money on something they "hope" will give a result.

will it actually enable all the contry folks to start ebusinesses and become world leaders?

maybe the internet for country folks will result in more "renewables", maybe they can tie together all the ALP buzz phrases, not forgetting the new one of course "global climate destruction", just handed down from our American master (I for one welcome their interference and spin - sarc)

Ludwig, I like very much your analogy, how appropriate to the ALP and their love of symbols and bragging, and their total lack of substance
Posted by rpg, Friday, 17 September 2010 8:55:35 AM
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You can be IT illiterate but still know the value of it. The same as many are illiterate about electricity but know what it can do and what it is worth.
Posted by Flo, Friday, 17 September 2010 9:54:46 AM
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Okay, I can bust the myth that the internet is a luxury. Our world runs on data now, knowledge is the new currency. An example of this is at the place where I work. Data modellers are trying to construct computer models of water flow patterns through the environment, they are trying to use real world data to predict the flow and spread of nutrients, pollutants, pesticides and toxic chemicals. They are trying to predict which areas are going to be coming under increased stress due to a drying climate and increasing population. And they are trying to do this so that we can maintain our natural environment, that which sucks carbon out of the atmosphere and gives us oxygen to breath, that which put tourism dollars in our pockets and taxes in the government coffers, that which gives us a place to go when we are sick of the city so we can distress and maintain our own health. But what they need is data, lots of it - hundreds of gigabytes in fact. On our current system it takes several days to transfer the data that is needed, copper just can't cut it. The modellers just can't keep up with our changing environment, what they need most is fresh current data transferred in real time. A high speed high capacity system is not a luxury, it’s a necessity! If we don’t have it we’re all screwed.
Posted by Arthur N, Friday, 17 September 2010 10:16:13 AM
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Ludwig
Forever the master of sarcasm and a phd. in doom. But I agree with your oil analogy.

Flo.
Yes but; here the government proposal is for total Fibre cabling of Australia. So I sketch a reality: Three farmers living on one of the numerous country lanes at the back of nowhere and kilometres from a similar insignificant country village, peopled with villagers with limited interest and no real need for personal IT services, will be facilitated with fibre cable for connection to high speed internet service.

This cabling project Flo, is a duplication of existing copper cable which already services admirably the isolated country communities mentioned, that dwell in every insignificant country lane in Australia.

Statistically, 90% of Australian population live on the eastern seaboard within 30klm of the coast. Where is the justification in the out of perspective investment of billions of dollars of borrowed money being ploughed into sparsely populated areas already suitably serviced with copper technology?
Posted by diver dan, Friday, 17 September 2010 10:48:45 AM
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Mirko makes a few points. The internet can be overused, but the very same comments were probably made about television when it was first introduced. People were turning into couch potatoes; kids were doing nothinhg but watching TV and not getting out with their friends. More tech angst is not going to solve much.
I sympathise with Mirko in tilting against this particular windmill. I use to have a thing about mobile phones being pointles, now I carry one everywhere.
In any case, the Internet has become indispensible in business. Its now part of the fabric of commercial life. Mirko should find himself another windmills to tilt against..
Posted by Curmudgeon, Friday, 17 September 2010 11:44:07 AM
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Of course there is a down-side to any innovation. Do we ban cars and aeroplanes because millions have been killed by them ?

There is an up-side as well and even in a small way as an individual the computer and the internet saves me money, even after I have paid my ISP.
I can do my banking, no cheques in the mail. I can talk to people on line with a video for nothing. I can do research, make reservations at the library, check out the surf, look for the cheapest buy, receive and send documents,make my own cards, listen to music and the radio, watch and record TV, keep records such as budgets and print them out with analysis, download my digital photos and send them to others (you can do this by phone but it costs money) Digitise my old vinyl records, download movies and video clips, and even express an opinion by publication !

These are a few of the personal advantages I get off the top of my head. Just think of the things that industry are able to do especially in the medical field with diagnostics and records.

It's a marvelous tool for education and I am constantly reading educational stuff that was never available before the internet. There is virtually nothing that can't be found on it, one just has to be discerning that's all
Posted by snake, Friday, 17 September 2010 11:50:40 AM
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no question the NBN is an expensive project but lets get a few points straight.

If the government don't build it, the country won't get it. And for all those who seem to think those country bumpkins wouldn't understand it never mind use it i would like to get very abusive of your ignorance.

Optic fibre cable will not out date or become a technology backwater. The only changes will be the equipment you plug into it. The cable has ability and capacity that far exceeds any future dreams.

I laugh at all the people that knock the ALP for trying to take on a major infrastructure project that has endless potential particularly in ecommerce and special areas like rural health and aboriginal health. Of course conservatives would never risk doing anything for the future as they couldn't sell that at the next election for cheap votes, like baby bonuses and family tax benefit bonuses. All vote buying. Not to worry the Lib's will sell it off to make themselves look like great financial managers and claim credit for the success of the system.

The NBN will be a hugh winner for all the country rural and urban, it will generate income and that will dictate how long it is kept for. when considering the decentralisation of population and business we still need much more spending on infrastructure to make it happen. Again if the government don't do it the rural areas won't get it and to be honest the massive suburbs of western sydney and melbourne carry far to much influence over government decisions because the have so many seats and are so easily influenced by their own greed and small minds.
Posted by nairbe, Friday, 17 September 2010 12:22:12 PM
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The author is obviously unaware just how much our world has been changed by the internet. Ever heard of the "digital economy"?
Would you say that instant phone communication is "luxury" or "necessity"? Have you ever lived out of a city?
Most water cooler chat is football, sex and office politics but that doesn't mean face to face communication is useless!
National infrastructure is built by folks with vision, and derided by those who look backward.
These people seem to accept handouts to corporations and those with wealth, yet deride any attempt to actually build something without some "entrepreneur" making millions from it.
Do these folks realise how much wealth has been wasted via the inept privatisation of Telstra? (The Billions in waste and monopolistic behaviour, the consultants, the US posse of inept senior management.)
Bringing up abusers behaviour as examples of the "value" of the internet is disingenuous at best. Do we value supermarkets by the number of obese folks buying bulk Coke?
Internet socially isolating. What a crock! Social folks can no socialise with people from around the world. Studies have shown that more communication is taking place. Focusing on the extremely un-social members of society does not make for an accurate picture.
This article reads as a thinly disguised anti-Labour piece: Someone arguing "the internet is a luxury" in this day and age is not that credible!
Posted by Ozandy, Friday, 17 September 2010 12:24:30 PM
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Well said.
HP
Posted by isabelberners, Friday, 17 September 2010 1:05:40 PM
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diver dan. Are not there plans for alternative methods in the situation you describe? I was under the impression, where fibre was not suitable, wireless and satellite would be used. At least that is what I thought I read. The promise is for fibre to 90+percentage of the population
Posted by Flo, Friday, 17 September 2010 1:18:12 PM
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Diver dan; your comment about the copper wire is also a furphy. A lot of the copper wire in this country is reaching the end of its life. The farmer you are concerned about would be getting very poor internet connection that far from the exchange. An example of copper wire letting the consumer down can be found on this link. http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s3012933.htm This is happening in the middle of Sydney, not only the bush,
Posted by Flo, Friday, 17 September 2010 1:25:00 PM
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A poor article.

You don't understand your subject Mirko.

High speed data transfer is more than just "browsing the internet"... it can/will revolutionise many aspects of business, health & education.

If you don't understand this you really shouldn't be writing articles like this.

Poor form
Posted by Dean K, Friday, 17 September 2010 1:39:48 PM
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Ozandy,Niarbe and Snake

Trends for employment are away from IT technology not towards it. Trends for rural infrastructure investment are diminishing, not increasing, as evidenced by increasing truck transport and closed rail circuits. Trends also apply to family farm ownership rolling over to big business enterprises and corporations.

Closure of rural Hospitals compensated with emergency air transport, and a continual desperation for the maintenance of student numbers to prevent the further downgrading and the threat of closure to local public schools. Long ago the telecoms shrank from Rural Australia under the guise of new technology as the door slammed on jobs and quality of service.

With few exceptions, country towns have become wasting backwaters of desperation where long ago population drift to cities became a stampede as the charge led by local youth diminished populations to a core of old people and a remnant struggling service sector.

Amalgamations of councils further nailed down the coffin lid of rural communities as contraction to regional centres attracted what little political power once thriving local rural communities possessed.

Now the same regional centres are becoming, in their turn, more desperate for investment as youth unemployment escalates and hospital facilities evaporate to large coastal cities such as Newcastle in NSW and Brisbane in QLD. Centres where 90% of the population live within 30klm of the coast and where, measured with the yardstick of equity, these services should be.

In view of the facts of life for rural Australia, the argument becomes absurd, if not obscene, for the proposed NBN to draw away resources from populated areas of Australia to the questionable benefit of a very minor and increasingly insignificant portion of the population in rural Australia.

The investment of the NBN into country Australia defies all economic logic of market forces. It is inequitable to the major population areas of this great country Australia, and will simply fail from lack of interest and available resources for its high maintenance requirements in the future
Posted by diver dan, Friday, 17 September 2010 2:09:43 PM
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diver dan So does providing roads if we use your argument.
Posted by Flo, Friday, 17 September 2010 2:18:35 PM
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Diver dan, you are right about the inequitable distribution in Oz, you just have it all wrong.

Our disgusting city conglomerates are of no use, & produce nothing but consumption.

Equity demands that our wealth be spent in the areas where it is produced, & that is not in the centers of government.

You are right about dying population, but that is because farming is private enterprise, not public. If governments ran farms we would have a couple of dozen "workers" on each square mile property. After all it used to take 8 people to run that 640 acre farm in the old days. Government now employs 10 people for each job to be done, that would now require 80 on that farm.

Today we find the area farmed has gone up to around 1500 acres per worker, ten times what it was. Just as well government had nothing to do with it.

I would be well pleased for you to keep your NBN in your rotten city, provided you caught & stored your own water, & generated your own electricity, with in your city. We don't need your transferred pollution, or your dams or pipelines.

WE also see no reason for the wealth generated by our exports to find it's way into your NBN
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 17 September 2010 2:48:46 PM
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While I disagree with Mirko about the benefits of broadband, I do agree that there are many other things the government could spend our money on that would deliver greater benefits.

NBN is also redistributing costs and benefits in a way that will probably make the community as a whole worse off.

If it costs, say, $20,000 to supply fast broadband by fibreoptic cable to a remote farm, but the service is worth only $10,000 to the farmer, then we do not improve efficiency by forcing the taxpayer to stump up the additional $10,000 (or indeed the full $20,000).

The same is true in the city. If people and businesses want fast broadband enough, they’ll pay for it. If enough people are willing to pay, someone will supply it. If customers don’t want it enough to cover its costs, we’re better off without it.
Posted by Rhian, Friday, 17 September 2010 2:50:44 PM
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What is wrong with upgrading the backbone, but letting the customer pay for the last bit based on their needs?

I get 1.5Mb/s and can do everything that Labor's NBN supposedly can do for me.

I am not looking to have 100 simultaneous HD channels running.

Comparing the plans to mobile phones, the coalition's is like a blackberry, the NBN is the iphone costing 10x as much. The iphone is sexier and cooler, but functionally no different.

I would say if you want an iphone, buy it yourself.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 17 September 2010 3:49:26 PM
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Diver Dan,
I consider your out look on rural Australia as all the evidence i need to know you have no idea what you are talking about. The real wealth of this country is in the rural areas and the more remote the bigger the profits. EG, mining wheat farming. To be honest why don't the obese, unmotivated gits in the cities get off there butts and pay for their own internet up grades. after all they don't need the internet anyway do they.

Shadow minister,
The comparison is that the lib's are offering analog and the NBN is state of the art with unlimited future potential. I am greatful your blind hate of anything that labor does isn't running the country.
Posted by nairbe, Friday, 17 September 2010 6:41:31 PM
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Is this article a joke?
Quite frankly, it's such dross that I am amazed that somebody actually seriously gives him a publishing deal on a book on, of all things- HUMAN RIGHTS, despite all of the other dross he churns out.

As some of you have already connected his moronic 'luxury' analogy to other sophisticated information and communication technologies, I have only this to add:
"Ten years ago, few people spent any time on the internet. The world was probably a better place."
Oh yes, the 80s and 90s were so fantastic, high scale corruption that nobody was aware of unless it was reported prime time, incredible amounts of ignorance due to dependence on the TV to provide current information that books in the library (or bookshops) not provided, and the only ways to form understandings on conduct, culture and events was either word or mouth, or obeying cultural norms from the TV. Free speech, expression of ideas and cross-cultural interaction a whimper compared to now. Golden days indeed.

"Even now, it is possible to lead a full, complete and successful life without the internet, and certainly you can do it without super fast internet."
Unless you own a business, work in finance, banking, investment, manufacturing or logistics, education and research, did business internationally, or you felt the need to understand any social or political groups independently of 3rd parties or actually physically being present or would fork out airline tickets.

"For proof, just look at independent federal MP Tony Windsor. He is one of the two most powerful men in the country. He has admitted that he has never used a computer in his life."
And it took him almost two weeks to inefficiently decide which political party to support, holding the nation's governance hostage. What a guy.

Oh, also, that whole "people use internet for superfluous recreation and porn" is FALSE- it is mostly used, according to virtually every credible chart, for business and research.

It's not nice to lie Mirko.
Posted by King Hazza, Friday, 17 September 2010 7:20:59 PM
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""" But what about positive educational outcomes? Well, on balance there probably are none. The research suggests that the internet is probably making us dumber. """

I agree with you, a country person with no internet would never have posted a more stupid article than this. I would suggest you follow your own tripe and get off the internet now before you lose what little intelligence you have left.
Posted by RawMustard, Friday, 17 September 2010 8:08:12 PM
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nairbe, ponder!
Australia: The Farming Basket Case and the NBN

Australian farming, once the pride and backbone of the national economy, continues unabated to die a lingering death from a terminal disease brought on by lack of innovation, lack of investment, lack of Government research and a farming debt crisis. As small farms slide relentlessly from the edge of productivity and profit, into the abyss of Government handout, farming in rural communities has been reduced to a lifestyle choice.

The temporary phenomena in transposition of land values to equity holdings are of temporary relief to underservicing of the farm debt. With an anticipated drop in farm values, farm debt will become a bigger national crises than it currently is.

Into this cauldron add the political death of the once powerful farmers voice, the National Party, replaced by a handful of disaffected Independents, divorced from the old guard and their reliance on the Liberal Party, and the picture is complete: Except for the NBN.

Against all economic logic, the Gillard Government proposes an injection of billions of dollars, not into rural research and development, not investment into rail and air services, nor dams nor roads, but into an enterprise of such low priority, the re-cabling of rural Australia, in order to facilitate a superfast internet service of doubtful and limited use to farming communities.

If such vast quantities of money are available for infrastructure investment, then political debate is essential to determine the order of priorities for such investment.
Posted by diver dan, Friday, 17 September 2010 8:38:17 PM
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Those small farms feed you dan. If they go what will you eat? Food from China fertilized with human feces?

What happens when diesel prices force the ships off the water and the greeny's scream blue murder if you power them on good old fashioned coal powered steam or you know that other blasphemous word, nuclear. What will you eat then?

A strong communications, data network is an essential commodity in a modern world as our own and by pushing it out to the bush we can encourage people to move out into small communities and reduce the pressure on our cities. If done properly, it could resurrect some of those failing country communities which would then encourage young people to stay on the farm to feed us good wholesome quality food and not that cheap crap from China, or even worse GMO poisons from Monsanto!

The city cannot survive without the country and you're a fool if you think otherwise.
Posted by RawMustard, Friday, 17 September 2010 9:40:57 PM
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Excuse my ignorance but why do we still focus on fibre optics ? Wouldn't existing satellites provide a far better coverage at a lot less cost ?
Posted by individual, Friday, 17 September 2010 10:27:37 PM
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Apparently not Individual- according to some complaints to the newspapers (though admittedly it's not something to rely on alone).

Logically, it is a less efficient and reliable form of transmission than a fibreoptic cable (as one is an insulated light-speed transmission along a shorter distance with no chance of interference in situations beyond exceptional damage inflicted to the cabling- while the other uses a slower energy medium that is easier to disrupt in ways not unlike the problems experienced by mobile phones.

Not to mention satellite dishes require a bit of investment and technical skills (nothing big in either case, for someone with a fair grasp of how to work it right, although it could be a fair factor to consider- not to mention local stock).

But what you say is a good point to consider. Because it WOULD stand to save a lot of money.
Posted by King Hazza, Saturday, 18 September 2010 12:52:46 AM
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The problems with satellites is latency and you can't push up to satellites from your home in any meaningful way. Think of the old days when OS calls were on satellite before laying fiber on the ocean floor. You could have up to 10 seconds of lag in your conversation, light solves all those problems.

That's not to say that some smart Sci-Fi nut won't come up with some "way out there" Tacheon beam tech that beats fiber in the near future. But if we were to always wait for emerging or future technologies, then we would still be beating hollow logs :)
Posted by RawMustard, Saturday, 18 September 2010 1:49:19 AM
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Hello,
Many people now days think about luxury when they fulfill all the things for necessity. but the people who don't have enough money they first try to fulfill there necessity.today for rich people luxury become there necessity.

thanks!!
________________
http://www.expedia.com.au/Ho-Chi-Minh-City-Hotels.d178262.Travel-Guide-Hotels
Posted by jjuliaa, Saturday, 18 September 2010 5:05:30 AM
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Dan you really are so typical of a city dweller who has never had anything to do with the country, Or you are really yanking my chain.
Small farming as seen on the east coast is an expanding and growing market, i won't argue that it is done with out much help from government but it is strong and growing. As for major broad acre production, this is massively profitable and a hugh industry in this country, why do you think the government put so much money into supporting drought stricken farming areas, because the payback on years like this one are enormous. Our fisheries are successful despite the governments trying to stop them fishing.
Our biggest problem is we are ignored by government and under serviced. You learn to take what you can get in the country and at the moment it looks ok for a change. The independents stand to do what the lib's lapdogs the Nat were too gutless to do and get some of our wealth coming back to us. So save your suburban conservative ignorance and get with the program, something is happening for this countries wealth machine for a change, not the ever greedy and selfish.
Posted by nairbe, Saturday, 18 September 2010 7:04:18 AM
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Diver Dan,
Just to help you understand, wheat as a crop is expected this year to harvest around 25 million ton. At the current price this will produce around 7.5 billion for the Australian economy and mostly in foreign currency.
This is one crop, a big one yes but then there's barley, oats, canola, the wool clip the live meat trade and on and on. So much of it foreign currency and thats only western and southern grazing lands. Then consider mining and its wealth generation.
So how do the suburbs do for real wealth generation, service industries, shopping and unsustainable building industry, banks. None of this really creates wealth it just redistributes it to the rich. The cities are a massive financial and political drain on this country, poorly organised and run with massive festering social problems rooted in ignorance and bigotry. I visit the western suburbs of Sydney regularly to see family and have nothing good to say about the place, it's a disaster waiting to happen, a massive slum if anything really ever goes array in this world.
Posted by nairbe, Saturday, 18 September 2010 8:24:56 AM
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It is about time us NBN supporters started imagining some of the wonderful benefits fiber to the home will provide and articulating them for the doubters.

Aside from all the already noted benefits for education, medicine etc I can think of a few more.

Cloud computing will be a reality. No more hard drive, operating system etc. Your whole computer will reside on the net. Home computers will become just a terminal, probably linked to your TV, stereo, security system etc. No more defrags, no more installing windows etc. Once you install a game, program etc it will be there forever, probably automatically updated too. Run out of space? Just buy some more. Never again worry about crashes or disks dying and losing your data. It will all be safely stored on a remote server ready to be accessed everytime. You will never need a laptop as you can access "your" computer from any terminal. Local library, Log in theres your computer, At work, log in theres your computer. On holidays, at friends houses, even on your mobile devices. All you will need to do is log in and your whole computer, games, applications and music and photos etc etc all there any time, anywhere and you never need to do anything. No "housekeeping", no virus scans, reinstalls, defrags, bsod etc etc ever again.

Anyone ever tried to look at a surfcam or a traffic cam or a weather cam? Waste of time int it. Not with an NBN. The pictures will be so clear you will think it is a movie. You will be able to remotely view your own cameras in real time as if you were actually there.

(continued)
Posted by mikk, Saturday, 18 September 2010 10:45:15 AM
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(continued)

I also want to start a movement to have all publicly funded cctv cameras fed into the web. We the community pay for these cameras. We the community are the ones the cameras watch. Why shouldnt we be able to see what they see? Its no different than walking outside and looking for yourself. The main reason it is not contemplated now is it would be pointless with current internet infrastructure. The NBN will make it very feasible and I think if enough of us push for it the authorities would have no choice. It could also be a way of crowd sourcing security. The workers in surveillance centres are notorious for missing serious incidents and who can blame them when they have to watch dozens of screens at once, some displaying multiple cameras. A few extra pairs of eyes may pick up things the operator misses and be able to alert the operator/s or the appropriate authorities.

All video shops will be on the net and their physical stores will close. As will those DvD vending machines popping up all over the place. Good for both the merchant and the customer. The customer is not restricted to their local shop. They can use any store Australia wide. Pretty good for competition wouldnt you say. The merchant also wins as they are not restricted to only those who can physically reach their store but have the whole country as their market. With the whole country as a market I would expect many niche suppliers. Like french films? Like horror, sci fi? There will be plenty of scope for these type of suppliers and I predict a booming industry not unlike the 80s when video shops first became popular. They might even start selling TV episodes the same way they do movies. There is massive amounts of product out there as all the new digital channels are proving with their(quite popular)reruns and dredging up old tv shows.

The end of "fly in fly out" mining. Already experiments are taking place aimed at operating mining machinery by remote control.

(continued)
Posted by mikk, Saturday, 18 September 2010 10:45:20 AM
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(continued)

The NBN will allow remote operation over the net. Instead of flying to the desert to operate a big digger or dumptruck it will be possible to sit at home or in an office in Perth or Brisbane or Sydney and operate them by remote control. If the americans can do it with their war robots then we should be able to do it no problems. All that is lacking is the communications pipeline. The NBN will provide it. It could be extended to many enterprises that are amenable to remote operation. Farming, factory work, surveillance, dock work? Who knows how far it could go. Imagine the savings in just the mining industry. The saving on flying all those workers to the middle of nowhere, housing them, feeding them, training them, keeping them safe. They could probably get away with paying lower wages too. After all miners are paid a premium because it is a dirty, dangerous, unpleasant job that takes you away from your family. Once it is done from the comfort of an armchair in an air conditioned office or your own lounge room it can hardly be considered an onerous job deserving of ultra high wages to compensate. I could even see it becoming competitive as the best young people, already highly skilled from all the years of video gaming, try to outdo each other and push their machines to new limits and drive innovation and productivity, all while having fun. The first steps towards mining and exploring our universe and solar system all by remote control. All driven by Australia.

Just four things from one person. Once the whole country starts thinking the possibilities are endless. We need this to bring our country back to its rightful place as a driving force of innovation and technology and most of all a country full of switched on, connected, ultra smart, highly educated people who will lead the world in progress, sustainability and fairness and opportunity for all. Like we used to be before money became god and "the market" became sacrosanct
Posted by mikk, Saturday, 18 September 2010 10:45:24 AM
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I have to admit that I get on to the forum to give my bit of "wisdom", and look at others, preferably to read what I believe are wise remarks and advice, and hope that any wise pieces of information get back to where ever it will do some good, we might even get some politican on who may finally realise what a lot of people think of them. You have to take every chance to exoress your feelings, and the best advice for every circumstance that may crop up.
Posted by merv09, Saturday, 18 September 2010 10:51:26 AM
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Nairbe, I would like you to get it into your head that we do not "get cash and sell" our goods we export, we have reciprical trade, and what we get as the trade from other countries relies generally on who is buying. For instance the trade of our iron ore and coal to China, gets us those imports that K-Mart, Target, Big W, Lowes, Bunnings, Wesfarmers, and another hundred stores sell, Chinese clothing, tools, shoes, cardigans and a hundred other goods, and when you see any foreign goods in our shops, you will know that some that we have traded has been the manner of getting it. Unfortunately, there is no extra wealth in manufacturing with those those mining resources, and in that respect it is a dead loss when you realise that those reciprocal imports are directly destroying the ability of our own manufacturing industries to compete, they are gone, broke. Understand the price query, The same coal sold by BHP Billiton probably 2007 or 8 for $US98/ton, was sold to Pohang, Sth Korea for $US308.70/ton and in 1957 Federal Hansard, the Minister for mines claimed that coal was worth 40 Pounds($80), $1024 in 2008 by CBA conversion, so with comparing those two points, the price of coal could be anything from 27% and 10% of what it has been been valued at for export.
Posted by merv09, Saturday, 18 September 2010 11:31:46 AM
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I know some of the following have been covered already, but the internet is more than a luxury now (maybe it was a luxury when it was first introduced and PCs were a rarity, but now...)

1. Health: online monitoring of patients; daily communication
2. Education: online tests; courses
3. Research: vast amounts of data stored online and easily accesible by researchers anytime and anywhere.
4. Farming: online weather reports; commodity prices etc; keeping in touch (how far do you think some farms are?)
5. Business: online retail; public forums - it was reported recently that to get a complaint sorted faster, just use tweeter.
6. Social networks (most of us are highly mobile people, not just within Australia but also overseas) - I think the benefits are obvious!
7. Email: (assuming it's not super-urgent) it may produce a lot of spam etc but you can send out a request/complaint/enquiry at any time instead of writing/posting a letter or being on hold for 10 minutes.
8. Discussions: just look at the number of comments to this one article! Imagine how long it would take to get these many responses published and viewed by all without the internet.

Having said that, the cost issue is a valid point. Let's hope we don't get burdened with another "oops, guess it's going to cost 2x as much." And definitely, let's look and see if the NBN is effective and efficient, if not, let's find another alternative, whether it's government-funded or not.

Also, there are definitely people who spend too much time on the internet, just as there people who spend too much time in front of the TV, on the phone, driving nowhere in particular etc. I think most of us would have seen a handful of people reading while walking on the street - "Book-addicts"?

http://currentglobalperceptions.blogspot.com/
Posted by jorge, Saturday, 18 September 2010 12:07:40 PM
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What a ridiculous concept of having a copper-wire roll-out, when satellite technology is virtually upon us!

The entire notion is a waste of public monies for nothing more than literally a handful of votes. Regional Australia can wait until we go satellite. Damn! We already have GPS wherever we go, internet is not far away. Better that monies were spent on expediting that, rather than doubling costs by rolling-out old technology.

Don't support old and costly technology!

Apparently, we won't get the fast speed that they are touting anyway, as our receptors from Europe are too small.

It's something that should be read about from the proposals, not the media!
Posted by MindlessCruelty, Saturday, 18 September 2010 12:13:27 PM
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merv09,
The word is reciprocal not reciprical.
Reciprocal trade, yes that's right but a different storey really. This is more about balance of trade and our ability to bring foreign currency to the equation. It may not all arrive as currency but it goes through the books. Start taking away the amounts that farming and mining contribute to the balance of trade and watch the balance get very negative. Also look at the contribution to the balance of trade made by the folks of the urban suburbs. All those new white goods, cars, cloths and consumables all imported. At least when a farmer buys a tractor it is used to make money for the country. When a builder buys a cement mixer made in china they simply send most of the money off shore while the rest goes to make some corporate fact cat richer.
It is so disappointing that urban Australia is not as reciprocal in their attitudes toward rural Australians as they are about the trade agreements that are geared to help them in their greedy lives.
Posted by nairbe, Saturday, 18 September 2010 3:46:57 PM
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Nairbe
I understand your pain at the information and opinion in my posts, however, sadly I have commitments as do we all, which preclude me from further engagement in this debate at this time.

Be assured though, I have a long history of life in the country, where I was born. I know my “stuff” well enough to form opinions as outlined in my posts above. I base this opinion on first hand observation and living experience in the country, where I made a living in various occupations in many industries operating in the country, while at the same time raising a family in the same country.

In short, I am a country boy, but not in my opinion a “hick”. (Definition of “country hick”= A back woods uneducated narrow minded provincialist). That is a definition that the farming community must attempt to distance themselves from; but sadly, and I believe undeservedly, a tarnished image the farming community suffer from and continue to pay a disproportionate price for, in the halls of political power today.

With the proposed NBN you are being “used-up” as a group. You now must stop resting back on your collective heels and see the big picture. The NBN is a diversionary tactic. It will never happen and should not happen in the proposed form. It is a huge waste of resources.

It is money that should be invested into rural communities in more practical ways than the current proposal of an NBN network. Sorry, but farming communities are sliding in the productivity of farming due to many factors which can and should be addressed in better ways than the unnecessary NBN. (Which will not happen). The NBN is a political diversionary tactic; a con-job for votes, and its working a treat.
cheers
Posted by diver dan, Saturday, 18 September 2010 10:20:04 PM
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Diver Dan,
you probably won't see this post but thanks for the debate i have enjoyed it. I thought you must have been having a go over the country. The "country hic" problem is a real one just as the "dumb westie" is a real problem. The uneducated provincial fool is common in this country both urban and rural. The problem i have with the sprawling suburbs full of them is the disproportionate amount of influence they have politically. They have been used and manipulated much more than the country voter as they have many more seats, enough to change a government. Country voters are their own worst enemy by voting for the ever useless Nationals all the time.
In the end Dan I'm a tree changer, but did it at a very young age. I moved country after school and have never wanted to go back, have a family a business and an education, i don't find country people unaware of the issues but they are sick of producing massive wealth for this country and then being ignored.
You point out falling productivity in farming, this will turn around quickly as the drought passes and new production is put in place. I think you know that.
If your whole argument is hanging on the idea that the NBN won't get built then it is a very weak argument. It is being built and by the next election it won't even rate a mention. Like all these things, once the political value fades you won't remember it.
The need for the NBN is very basic. It has been outlined so many times by scientists to telecommunications specialists. The cost (43 bil) is over 8 years and in the end bound to be expensive because the government is building it. the problem is that if the government don't build it it won't get built, no commercial operation would spend that money, but our government can because it must serve all its people not just the profitable ones.
Posted by nairbe, Sunday, 19 September 2010 7:12:56 AM
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if americans can do it with their war robots then we should be able to do it no problems..
Mikk,
Will those Robots provide for those whose jobs are being taken ? Will those robots be so interactive as to be socially active ? Will robots contribute to Superannuation payments ?
You might think it ok to share the planet with robots both machine & human. I prefer people with some sense & integrity & humour. If I wanted to share my time with emotionless beings I'd join the Labor Party.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 19 September 2010 3:41:24 PM
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Mirko Bagaric,

Whatever power Man has been able to gather, from its brute force to the one generated by the contraptions issued from Einstein’s E=mc², has had two opposite directional uses; one for the benefit of his race and the other toward its discomfort or annihilation.

The power of the Internet is not an exception.

Hence Man will continue in its natural, blind, quest of overpowering any living being within its reach, including his fellow man, till the inevitable end.

Your consideration are right and wrong at the same time
Posted by skeptic, Sunday, 19 September 2010 6:29:14 PM
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discomfort or annihilation
skeptic,
when Einstein was asked as to how he thought the third world war was going to be fought he answered "I don't know but I know that the fourth world war will be fought with sticks".
Technology is absolutely great when it is controlled by thinking people but it is downright awful when controlled by megalomaniacs & other morons.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 19 September 2010 9:14:59 PM
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I have two rural propeties. One has a house located 2.8 km from the front gate, the other (house site) 3.2 km from the front gate.

So, am I to assume that as part of the NBN, I will have cable run to both these sites, even if I choose not to connect.

Can anyone clarify this for me?
Posted by rehctub, Monday, 20 September 2010 6:52:57 AM
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Thank you rehctub. (assuming you are serious).

Were you involved on those same properties as recently as late 70’s when your telephone service was represented by a single strand of fence wire stretched between the trees with an earth stake grounded at each end, connected to a manual exchange in a remote country village many miles down the track?

And did the circumstances eventuate that after much frustration and badgering of the local MP, you welcomed a copper cable that stretched the same lazy miles of empty country roads and ploughed paddocks to arrive at the door of the same properties, with the addition of a shiny new automatic telephone exchange at the village end?

Did the service improve with the new technology, or was the fact soon apparent that the shiny new cables were arriving at the same moment as redundancy payments arrived for the small army of personnel once employed for the maintenance of phone lines and equipment in your area.

And were those same cooling late summer storms so essential for replenishing of dams and sustaining of crop, to expose themselves as the harbinger of doom to reliability of communication, once considered normal, flashing back and forth from farm to shining sea on the metallic message stick of copper wire cable?

Cont..
Posted by diver dan, Monday, 20 September 2010 4:32:37 PM
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Cont.

And after the long delays of silence and frustration, assisted by kilovolts of lightning discharge into conveniently placed and efficient conductors of electricity designed for micro-volts, the shiny new copper cables; was not that frustration heightened while awaiting the arrival of repair crews from their migratory regional centres to become exacerbated by a highly prioritising private enterprise corporation with total focus on the need for profit and happiness of shareholders as the new business-model mantra?

And today a new promise of prosperity and further homage to the “Cargo Cult”, fanfare, drum beats and the sound of trumpets, the arrival of the saviour and God “Fibre Cable”. The same country lane shimmering in the same summer haze at the end of another shimmera of broken promises by the same self-serving experts now present the “armour plated” fibre cable: Another ribbon of steel, a $b43 lightning conductor of unreliability and waste to be serviced by the same army of “ghosts” which helped embed the rural reliance on the mobile phone.
Posted by diver dan, Monday, 20 September 2010 4:34:04 PM
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It is difficult for people to imagine the future and to understand how the Internet changes your life for the better. I have lived the life of an Internet connected person for the past 18 years and I do not want to go back to "the way it was".

All the staff in our company spend their thinking and working time at home. We get together once or twice a week for face to face discussions and a meal together. This means we spend more time with our families instead of sitting alone in our cars.

I participate in weekly design sessions on the definition of standards with people from Europe, USA, Canada, and Japan. We examine diagrams, movies, presentations as though we were in the same room.

I am no longer a slave to the TV timetable and watch those programs that interest me at my leisure and without ads.

I participate in contract bridge games with friends without having to go to a dusty hall in the cold at particular times of the evening.

I read my daily enews papers.

I have picked up smatterings of languages before I go to foreign countries using visual language aids that put me in the context of the spoken word.

I explore all my holiday destinations and make all my arrangements myself.

I have not written a cheque or posted a letter for years saving me heaps of time.

I communicate with many more people on a daily basis than I ever did in the pre Internet days.

The list goes on.

The Internet is an essential part of my working, social and intellectual life and I think everyone should have the opportunities that I have to lead a richer more productive life.
Posted by Fickle Pickle, Monday, 20 September 2010 5:11:44 PM
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rehctub,
Why would they roll out such expensive cable to some remote spot when wireless will fullfil your need. It will always be a second place option and if you are operating a business needing Ecommerce or having a diagnostic test run from sydney at your local hospital you will need Fibre.
The plan was never to supply people such as yourself with cable. That would be a waste. I won't get it here either never thought i would but i am expecting an improved wireless network that is more price competitive because i won't be restricted to one supplier only. The real advantages will be in my local town that will get cable, it gives the small community a chance to do Ebusiness on a level playing field.
Posted by nairbe, Monday, 20 September 2010 7:12:01 PM
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Well thanks for that nairbe.

If you are right in what you say, that makes a lot of sense to me, however, why wasn't this explained during the election?

My understanding was that all homes, or 97% of them, would have FO cables to the door.
Posted by rehctub, Monday, 20 September 2010 7:20:58 PM
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Nairbe:

To the truth and the unpleasant reality above:

Consider:

Your local regional hospital and most other Government services and large private enterprises are already fibre cabled: As are major country telephone trunk routes and many junction routes. Huge areas of the country are now serviced with fibre cable where it has been considered technically necessary.
Where we move under the shady gum tree, is the promise to facilitate all subscribers to fibre cable. The Liberals are correct to question the necessity and practicality of such a huge and expensive undertaking.
Posted by diver dan, Monday, 20 September 2010 8:19:53 PM
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rechtub
if you do want to install OF to your house, do the hard work yourself. We had OF installed 1 km from the main road and were gobsmacked by a Telstra quote of $60,000 to lay and connect the cable. Did a few sums, paid chap with a digger to make the trench, lined it with sand, bought the OF cable, stuck it in and then handed it over to Telstra to connect and own thereafter. Saved tens of thousands. Need to OK the arrangement with Telstra in advance, though - and their operatives were honest enough to admit after the event that their pricing had been ridiculous.
Posted by Candide, Wednesday, 22 September 2010 1:34:55 AM
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Candide, You are off track. I do not want FO to my properties. I don't even live there.

What I want to know is why are we looking to spend $43billion, which by the way, we don't have, in the hope that enough people will use it to make it pay.

I say, get a commitment first, then provide the goods.

What our government is doing, is putting the cart before the horse. But hey, why should they care, after all, it's not their money, nor are they accountable. The past few years have proved this.
Posted by rehctub, Wednesday, 22 September 2010 7:13:10 AM
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Wouldn't a % 100 wireless coverage do the job ? That would probably cost only a few million to complete & we could use the other 42½ billion for freight & fuel subsidy. Now that would be a stimulus package with backbone.
Posted by individual, Thursday, 23 September 2010 5:51:54 AM
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Wireless will be used where it is lower cost to deliver a high speed connection. Unfortunately it is of limited capacity and can only handle a few subscribers within range. If we had it in the city and suburbs we would need a transmitter - with fibre connection - on each street. Once the fibre reaches your house then you will probably use wireless inside your house but even then you will most likely need repeater stations. Technologies normally take at least 10 years to go from the labs to commercialisation and as far as I know there are no wireless technologies in the lab that will do the job without a massive number of transmitters.
Posted by Fickle Pickle, Thursday, 23 September 2010 6:07:17 AM
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Above two posters:

Exactly right. The most practical alternative to wholesale installation of fibre cable is a technology compatible with copper wire. Copper cables have taken years to install to current levels in rural Australia. What a mind boggling stupidity to now reinstall the same countryside with fibre cable.

optic cable installation is a massively expensive and unnecessary undertaking, if simply for the sake of a supposed social equity issue.

The cable technology is not sufficiently robust and is lightning prone to damage, will not tollerate stretching from flood and earth movement, and is generally unproven for use under harsh Australian rural conditions.

Cable repair and joining techniques require laboratory conditions which, even in its current small scale use in rural conditions, proves difficult, expensive and time consuming .

The proposed new venture requires an available workforce of such vastness in skills and numbers, willing to work endlessly under harsh, dangerous and isolated conditions throughout Australia to achieve cable installation to the end of every Nationally insignificant country lane for the HS venture to be universally successful: And this right on the heels of the completion of a National programme to install copper conductor cable.

We as a nation have a need to NOT demonstrate stupidity in such unachievable and unnecessary ventures of doubtful usefullness.
Posted by diver dan, Thursday, 23 September 2010 2:46:02 PM
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Governments must prioritise necessities over luxuries. They should never use our taxes for projects that they can’t prove will be good for the community. It is not clear whether <<paved roads>> are doing more harm than good to the human species. But what is incontestable is that it is a luxury. Human beings don’t need it to flourish - << paved roads and 4 lane highways>> pale into insignificance compared to the must haves of security, health, housing and education.
This is a great game. You can insert any number of things into this post instead of high speed broadband:
"Flush toilets are a luxury..."
Municipal sewerage and water systems...
Central electrical generators...
Good shootin' thar, Tex.
Posted by Grim, Thursday, 23 September 2010 4:17:21 PM
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'Flush toilets are a luxury..."

Especially in the Commonwealth games village.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 23 September 2010 4:24:14 PM
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Bigger than a texan ten gallon hat and more "Grim","Grim".
Posted by diver dan, Thursday, 23 September 2010 10:34:02 PM
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It's irrelevant whether NBN is a luxury. Almost everything we have in our Western lives could be considered a luxury. Cars, TV, refrigerators, washing machines... All unnecessary really. But man they make life so much better, don't they?

The benefits for rural communities are endless, but some significant ones are:

- Access to more information outside the Murdoch press and prime time news, makes for a more informed electorate (I would hope)
- Access to on-line employment opportunities to help subsidise farmers incomes, especially during low-yield periods. With today's available technology, more and more people should be enabled to remain in the communities where they grew up and still make a decent living.
- Access to increased social interaction for isolated families.
- Access for farmers to the commercial advantages of fast internet. e.g. On-line livestock sales save massive transport costs.
- Closer to parity on education, health etc with urban counterparts.

$43billion over 8 years... It's not so much...How much has our misguided 'war on terror' cost us? and the illegal invasion of iraq...? (let's not forget lives lost, life long physical and mental injuries sustained and the related ongoing costs to society, plus 100s of thousands of lives destroyed in Iraq)

We spent a couple of billion on the pacific 'solution', which did nothing for anybody, anywhere, except perhaps make a few racists and xenophobes feel a bit safer and give the Coalition a few extra votes from these aforementioned small-minded people.
Posted by TrashcanMan, Friday, 24 September 2010 7:50:05 PM
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