Excellent article. It's good to see that at least one Labor MP has the courage and integrity to point out this rank hypocrisy to the Education Minister.

The Chaplaincy program has always been insidious. It's time to rid our public schools of these proselytising godbotherers and replace them with properly qualified counsellors.

There are church schools in the community where Christians can educate their children in that faith. If the fees are too high for some families, then it's the responsibility of the church to enable a Christian education by helping out families who can't afford to pay.

It isn't the responsibility of the state to provide the means for children to be indoctrinated into any faith in public schools.

Trained counsellors, not chaplains are appropriate for public schools in our secular society, as are secular ethics classes.

I've no objection to religious classes being held in public schools strictly for children whose parents want them to attend. But they can't be only Christian because we have many other religions represented in our schools. We are a democracy. Not a hunting ground for cultist zealots.

And public schools must offer secular ethics as well to provide for children whose parents are atheists, agnostics, rationalists.

In our democracy we have the right to live FREE of religion

Meridith.
I also think that the chaplains for schools program is problematic but for different reasons. We take a great deal of care to train teachers in their subjects often to university level. However, when it comes to placing Chaplains in schools the training required is almost nonexistent. Given that there can be no separation between pastoral care and theology, why do we not insist that chaplains complete training in that subject? It seems that all of the other subjects taught in our schools require expertise but when it comes to religion all we require is enthusiasm. The church has had a bad time with enthusiasm, it tends to attract the silly and uneducated and I fear that many in the chaplaincy system are of that kind.

It is extraordinary that the one tradition that has shaped our whole culture, Christianity, is so poorly served. If it were taught properly there would be no need for a Rationalist Society since a proper understanding of the theology of the church would reveal that there is no real conflict. As it is, any religious notion, no matter how silly is baptised because we have all been told that we must respect other people’s religion. I must say I do not. Many religious ideas are injurious to the people who hold them and we should be able to have a healthy debate.

Peter Sellick

Victorian schools have had chaplains for over 50 years. My first school had one way back in 1974 - and a real asset she was too. For all of that time it was a complete non-issue. It only became an issue when John Howard decided to supply federal funding for them, telling us that the real issue is Howard hatred not the existence of chaplains themselves.

It would be great to hear from more MPs on this. School Chaplaincy is just mis-guided quackery, poisoning young minds to boot.

Sells, your attempt at ingratiating yourself into this piece is very telling indeed. I wonder (NOT) which religious notion would be foisted onto our kids under your steady hand?

Every time I see the guitar-wielding bible thumpers at my daughter's school I cringe at the thought that somehow I am subsidising their charade.

The Author

O’K is it Meredith to support the adoption of children by professing homosexual couples on the one hand, while on the other hand, and with the heavy club of secularism and the cry of “fundamentalist”, vehemently attack practising Christians (the fundamentalist society attack on Rev., Tony Costello/subject;homosexuality) for daring to step forward and instil direction, hope and the sense of belonging to those same children through a religious educational program in schools.

Ladies and gentlemen, I introduce to you for the first time in the columns of this great and respected publication, a lady that needs no introduction that better describes her agenda, aimed against tradition,morality and decency, than words from her own hands can do. Go for it Meredith.

It is hilarous that most of those opposing Chaplains have no problem with their kids going to Kylie or ga ga concerts. No wonder many of the kids are acting as sluts by the time they are in their teen years. The main opposition I suspect is the total lack of decent values that many parents display being exposed by a bit of decency. They want any sign of light extinguished by darkness. Maybe the thing they despise the most (recruitment by Jesus) might be the thing that stops their kids walking their own parents fallen tracks.

This article tells you everything you need to know about school chaplains.

http://www.27bslash6.com/easter.html

The one thing bible-thumpers cannot handle is anyone taking the micky out of their delusions!

Meredith writes:

>>> Individual chaplains may be well meaning themselves but the movement is contrary to a progressive values such as tolerance, separation of church and state, and commitment to reason and evidence rather than the superstition and bigotry of a bygone era. <<<

The arrogance of religion in general and Christianity in particular is breathtaking, Christianity is but one of many religions claiming to be the "one truth".

I imagine that our resident god-botherers would not so smugly complacent were all school chaplains Muslim.

Excellent article, which goes a small way to redressing the imbalance of articles and discussion threads favouring a neo-con agenda. We free-thinkers humbly accept even a small crumb such as this.

Which God is the real one? Even the Christians don't seem to be able to agree, having well into the 1000's of variants of what Christianity is about. I am sure there are many well meaning Chaplains, some may take their pastoral duties seriously rather than use their positin for recruiting purposes.

But, how do parents know if their Chaplain is of the fundamentalist variety teaching the kids less about respect and morality but about judgement,obedience and instilling fear about devils etc. .

Shouldn't morality and values be a subject for the home not using public education as a ripe field for indoctrination.

One of the saddest documentaries I ever watched was the effect of religious teachings that force FGM on young girls, and another in the US about the effects of radical Christian teachings on a group of young children at a youth camp.

The feelings of insecurity and inadequacy that this preacher instilled in the kids was heartbreaking. No uplifting feelings at all, or talk of love or any form of confidence building It was all about 'breaking the kids down'. The hate that some religious folk instil in others, not only towards other religious faiths, is quite frightening at times. I don't tar all religious people with the same brush but what checks are there to ensure Chaplains are not of this variety.

Who knows what people are being let into schools on this program? Keep indoctrination out of schools - I grealty resent taxpayer funds being used in this way.

How would Christian parents feel if Islamic Chaplains were allowed into the schools in our secular society. In reality it is highly prejudicial that only Christian Chaplains are allowed, which is why it is best to keep personal supernatural beliefs within the home and Church.

I can remember how some Christian (usually Catholic) children sitting with me in class at state school would have to leave when we had 'religious instruction'. This was more than 70 years ago, long before we became so culturally diversified. In 2010, how many parents want or will allow their children to receive instruction regarding religion in class.

What we need in our schools from grade 1 to grade 12 are the teachings of moral philosophers and psychologists.

Dear Diver Dan
Which tradition? - suicide bombing? molestation of children by various priests, parsons, ministers? The abomination that is Palestine and the dispossed, homeless victims of alleged biblical prophecy?

Which morality? - the rape of defenceles children? The vietnam war? The abuse of the democratic process in this country and many others? The constant mental abuse of children by loading them with terror, guilt and self disgust via medieval superstition? The notions of 'sin' and 'redemption' (conveniently provided for a price) by the priestly hierachy?

Which decency? - the vision of a man writhing in agony on a cross? The nonsensical expectations of Lourdes and 'miraculous' cures? The genital mutilation of defenceless baby boys and girls? The constant fear of god's vengeance for natural bodily functions?

The list goes on. Possibly the most disgusting aspect of the school chaplaincy program is that both political sides support this form of child abuse (one of many religion inspired forms) with public funds - and not insignificant funds at that.

Peter's point is very astute.

1. chaplains have a role in education, only if they know what they're talking about

2. they work primarily with children, so we must insist their interactions be transparent and assessed independently

3. to council children with a range of mental health issues, one must be appropriately qualified (and continually trained) to ensure they're advising and utilising outside professionals appropriately

4. schools that subsidise them using government funding, ought to produce detailed reporting to track specifically what that public money has achieved, particularly separting out any religious and secular work being done

Labor's $222M would be best spent on improving the supporting structures around Australian school counselers.

As Australia becomes more Multi-Cultural , and by definition , less Christian.. The more that the Christian Activists attempt to wedge themselves into Australian Society.

You have to give the Baby Boomers one thing, The vast majority of them rejected Religion very early in their lives.

Some of the older established Churches , I suspect , have yet to recover from this rejection.

'You have to give the Baby Boomers one thing, The vast majority of them rejected Religion very early in their lives.'

Yea that's why so many are racked with guilt over abortion, divorces and trapped by porn. Instead of humbling themselves and admitting they were wrong they pass their lack of values to their children. Look at many of our Cabinet Ministers many of whom at the State level has had to resign in disgrace.It is also why so many are such poor role models and don't even have the decency to instill any decent values in their kids (ie if the kids have a parent decent enough to stay at home with them). Often we see the results of these god rejecter's children on the streets bashing the elderly for a fix of drugs or throwing a glass at someone in the pub. Congratulations for your rejection of God and any decent values. No wonder radical Islam is becoming so popular as they observe the godless hypocrisy of secularism.

Dear Meredith,
I wholeheartedly agree. I am a father of six, four of whom are currently negotiating rampant Christian (mainly fundamentalist) infiltration in the state school system. In my experience the Chaplains (one of whom we got to know very well) are appalling ignorant and dismissive (though no doubt well-intentioned) of the kind of secular-rational world-view and values that surely the majority of theists, atheists and agnostics hold with. At my kids primary school the Chaplain is actually facilitating the "Friends for Life" programme, with teacher supervision, notwithstanding that exposure to Chaplains is supposed to be optional, or that it is illegal for Chaplains to counsel in any way shape or form. Since the programme is run during normal school hours, the only option I have is to weed my child out and expose her to pariah status. I've complained about this but to no avail. The Chaplains are also in cahoots with the 'Strength' and 'Shine' programmes (designed to seduce with activities no kid could say no to, like Skirmish for boys and fancy luncheons for girls), which are nothing more than recruitment strategies designed to lure kids into more intensive extracurricular activities--Christian clubs, camps etc.
Everybody is entitled to their beliefs, but state schools should be ideology-free zones, where our kids go for an education and not indoctrination. It is a national outrage that both the education department is flouting the rules with their open-door policy, and that both major parties are backing this pied piperism with ATO funds.
Unfortunately, the majority seem indifferent.

Hi Severin,
good to see you back :-)

Squeers you are hilarous. You write 'but state schools should be ideology-free zones' Next thing you will be saying that the high priest Dawkins is ideology free. Can't you see the contradiction in your belief.

Dear Runner,
of course you are right. I take that as read. Obviously ideology structures all our lives, and I'm none too happy with the popular materialist version either, which however is a more pervasive, broadly-cultural hegemony that will be harder to shift than fundies in state schools. The other matter of course, from my point of view, is that Christianity is actually part of that hegemony, the other half.
Kids are already doctrinally assaulted on all sides by one vested interest or another, including their own families.
State schools should be one place, a sanctuary, where they are allowed to think for themselves!
And in case you're wondering, I don't tutor my kids, at least not overtly; of course I'm an influence, but I urge them always to think things out for themselves and accept no one's opinion uncritically.

runner wrote: “Instead of humbling themselves and admitting they were wrong they pass their lack of values to their children.”

Dear runner,

When are you going to humble yourself, admit you are wrong and follow the religion of Jesus? I wrote a song to illustrate that point sung to the tune of the old jazz standard. Get your banjo and join me.

The Imitation of Christ

Six feet two,
Eyes of blue,
Jesus Christ,
He was a Jew.
Has anybody seen my Lord?

Big hooked nose,
There he goes.
Preaching so
That everyone knows.
Has anybody seen my Lord?

Speared in the abdomen
By a Roman
Blood gushing out

Rose from the dead
So it is said
People believe without a doubt

Jesus died
Still a Jew
Still a Jew
So why aren’t you?
Has anybody seen my Lord?

I’m sure you will feel better if you repent, reject the Christian heresy and follow the religion of Jesus.

Squeers,

Thanks for your honesty but State schools are no more ideology free than universities. Children are going to adopt an ideology whether we like it or not. Every time they watch a cartoon they are receiving a message of some sort. You might not tutor your kids but be sure many others are including their friends are.

"It seems that all of the other subjects taught in our schools require expertise but when it comes to religion all we require is enthusiasm."

That's because nobody can agree on what the 'facts' of religion actually are. Come up with a credible story that everyone sticks to, Peter, and we'll consider it.

Dear Sells,
"It is extraordinary that the one tradition that has shaped our whole culture, Christianity, is so poorly served"
Whose "whole culture" are you talking about? Are you assuming your audience on this site is drawn solely from Christian culture? Because they very likely are not.

There is an inherent conflict between Christians and non Christians, including atheists, and that is the small matter of the concept of god.

You might well baptise any silly religious notion, or know people who do. I don't baptise any religious notion because I don't automatically respect any religion simply because it is a religion, including the Christian.

Until Christians can become humble enough to accept that your world view is only A world view and not THE world view, I can't see why anybody would bother to attempt to reason with you.

And I would really love to see a discussion between rationalists and Christians in which there is no disagreement. Given how irrational Christianity is.

Dear David F,
you could write revival music for Hillsong! No one listens to the words anyway, or can't hear them over the clapping. One of the most amusing stories I heard once was on late night live, when a Christian musician told Phillip that most of the Christian pop scene didn't believe in their own lyrics, they were just plugging in to a lucrative market. Phillip could hardly stop laughing.

While I have no problems with children being taught the principles of Christianity (I don't know why so many are terrified of being told of these principles) it is wrong for Chaplains to consider themselves as 'counsellors' for the mentally ill or for children with psychological or social problems. Spiritual problems maybe, psychological problems no.

The quality of some of the clergy from other than from the main religions is pretty poor. The proliferation of fringe religious groups and self appointed 'Christian' groups is stunning and opens the way for some vulnerable children to be abused by the unqualified

Runner <"Congratulations for your rejection of God and any decent values. No wonder radical Islam is becoming so popular as they observe the godless hypocrisy of secularism."

I'm sorry Runner, but you have me confused about Islam now.
I had no idea they were 'Godless' or that they practiced secularism?
I though they worshiped a God called Allah?
I thought they strictly only worshiped the one God- and did not believe in a secular society? Just like you?

Atman is right. These Chaplains are taught to spread the word of their God- and are often not qualified for anything else.
Yet public school children are sent to these well-meaning Chaplains with their problems about- anything.
We need properly qualified school counselors in our public schools- not just those Chaplains hoping that their God will cure all evils.

What astounds me is why there is any assumption that there is a link between pastoral care and religion. A chaplain trained in religion in most cases has no more pastoral care qualification than say the school janitor.

If the chaplains were provided by the church and attendance was purely voluntary I would have no problem. However, as these indoctrinators are tax funded, and the children are punished for not attending indoctrination, I have a serious concerns.

The Chaplaincy Program is concerning on so many levels. As a qualified Counsellor I find it extremely concerning that these unqualified, virtually untrained Chaplains are allowed to 'counsel' children. If Julia Gillard is hell-bent on looking less of an atheist by further rolling out this program then I would like to see the Labor government stand by their awful decision and guarantee that they will be legally liable for any future damage done to children as a result of the school Chaplaincy program.

Some of the rambling, incoherent comments (of which there have been many) I have read on forums that are opposed to the ethics classes that were trialled in NSW earlier this year and are deliriously happy to see more money thrown the way of the school Chaplaincy program are truly disturbing. I have cut and pasted this one, it was made in response to concerns about the Chaplaincy program - "I'm not sure if you mean that kids finding hope and security in themselves is the way to go? cause if it is than humanity is destined for failure.. because we always do even as adults. Without a higher power to be accountable too our world will truly be an evil place to live in." This comment was made by a school chaplain, currently working in a NSW school.

Chaplains being granted free access to young, impressionable minds will result in litigation in years to come, of that I have no doubt.

[Deleted for abuse].

Ya gotta love it.. the atheist hysterical frenzy.

CJ says:

//The Chaplaincy program has always been insidious. It's time to rid our public schools of these proselytising godbotherers and replace them with properly qualified counsellors.//

Implying of course that no 'Chaplain' could ever have a secular counselling qualification? no bias there eh CJ. Good to see your clear thinking is on the front burner today as usual.

Then 'Bitey' sinks his fangs in:

//School Chaplaincy is just mis-guided quackery, poisoning young minds to boot.//

Yep.. *poisening*.. in fact it's so bad and so poisonous that we open our Parliament with a prayer of Christ:

Our Father, in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our traspasses as we forgive those who trespass against us....etc"

Utter POISON !..... quick.. grab the torches...we can lynch a few Christians before morning tea.

But.. you might always remember these words... and reflect on them.

"God is not mocked, whatever a man sows, that also will he reap"

This applies at a societal level also.

The alternative of course to 'Chaplains' is, according to our resident oracles "Qualified" Counsellors.

A discussion of where an atheist counsellor might take a vulnerable child is as close to *hell* as I want to ever get.
Jesus understood it though..

"Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit?"

We would have the 'qualified' blind, leading the 'born' blind further into darkness, and all of them falling into that pit.

Yes..we need 'qualified' counsellors, those who can at least offer enquiring children a ray of divine light & hope in an otherwise meaningless cosmos

""It is hilarous that most of those opposing Chaplains have no problem with their kids going to Kylie or ga ga concerts. No wonder many of the kids are acting as sluts by the time they are in their teen years.""
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 7 September 2010 11:19:09 AM

I oppose ga ga and Kylie as much as I oppose Chaplains and Imans. I oppose slutty kids, slutty teens, and slutty adults (of both sexes).

Providing Commonwealth funds for religious education is unconstitutional. The constitution says that parliament shall make no law for the establishment of any religion, and funding the school chaplaincy program clearly constitutes establishment.

Why has no-one taken this to the High Court?

Dear Sympneology,

http://www.hsq.org.au/Campaigns/Counsellors-not-Chaplains/ is the url of a campaign to replace chaplains by counsellors. S. 116 is interpreted the way the High Court sees it. If enough people get behind the campaign the High Court may see it in a different manner.

Dear AGIR,

Please calm down. Preventing Christian beasts of pray from subjecting defenseless school children to your superstitious mumbojumbo is not lynching anybody. Children can learn about religion by courses of comparative religion where they are told what different people believe.

I doubt that you would care to have your children go to a school where they were subjected to non-Christian superstitions. Religious indoctrination does not belong in the public system. Parents have a right to send their children to schools where the superstition of their choice is taught. However, they or their organisation should pay the entire cost - not the taxpayers.

Sympneology - The federally funded Chaplaincy program is apparently being challenged in court by the Association of Psychologists (I may have the name wrong), they are challenging it on the basis on endangering the mental health of children. I only heard about this yesterday.

This is the high court action I was referring to in my last post: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/chaplains-in-schools-challenged-20100904-14vde.html

[Deleted for abuse. Poster suspended]

[Deleted. Refers to a comment which has also been deleted.]

Christianity is not a religion.

A developing human brain such as a child’s is easily manipulated to follow a course set by a manipulator into its full development and adulthood. Can we guarantee the altruistic motives of those in manipulator positions or of the material being fed to the child to be non-partisan and beyond reproach? Much damage can be done to a developing brain that will manifest in the personality of the fully developed adult.

The burning of any religious philosophy onto the psyche of a child is wrong in so many ways, regardless of whether it is the religious beliefs of the majority in society or that of the child’s parents; it should be added to the laws of society that address child abuse.

Religious instruction should only be by the free choice of a more mature individual with less naive or raw circumspect. All the world’s religions should then be made available, Asian, African, American, Australian or European.

What......bit harsh you reckon? What if the rapists, murderers, paedophiles and other societal miscreants were once very normal humans but during their development stages were sent down the wrong path that pre-programmed them to be what they are in adulthood?

There are many examples of wrongful, misleading Christian gobbledygook such as whatever propaganda that was fed to a child that re-manifested in the adulthood of a hateful warmonger whom believes beyond doubt that he is on a Crusade doing God’s work. He believes that Christianity is of European origin, has no connection with Southwest Asia, that Jesus was white, had blond hair, blue eyes and toured the Middle East on a British passport. They fly into a rage when it is suggested that Jesus was a Jew, had black hair, black eyes, brown skin and only spoke Aramaic. Now really watch the sparks fly when you tell him the Aramaic word for God and as Jesus only spoke Aramaic.......................!

Boaz,

Since I’m sure that you would never be condescending enough to imply that the meaning non-religious people find in their lives isn’t actually meaningful at all, I’m going to assume that you meant “ultimately meaningless” rather than “otherwise meaningless” when you said:

<<Yes..we need 'qualified' counsellors, those who can at least offer enquiring children a ray of divine light & hope in an otherwise meaningless cosmos>>

Because ultimately, in the end, the universe IS meaningless, but we can’t change the fact by simply making something up. Nor does the ability of religions to create some ultimate and eternal meaningfulness say anything about the truth of their claims.

WAU,

Christianity is, in every sense of the word, a religion...
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=define:religion&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

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[Deleted. Refers to a comment which no longer exists.]

AlGore
Imagine it like this. What would your response be if Climate Change advocates and environmentalists were given carte blanche as School Chaplains to instruct and provide care to your children?

Some would be very good and may not use their position to force climate change on anyone, but some won't.

See the problem?

We can all be biased and this is why religion should not be part of any public school program IMO. That is your role as a parent not the role of a school chaplain.

There are already school counsellors to deal with personal issues or problems students might face and while they all bring their own personalities, biases and prejudices with them they are not their on a proselytizing premise.

"To the crimes against humanity, it is incumbant upon us as oath takers, advocates of neutrality, professionals and ethicists to note one more. The intentionally malignant anthropomorphism of "science". Science is the vehicle that set us free and we owe our global cousins everything we have gained - indeed *as* we gain. To demand that affluent society must now see it as a lumbering, monstrous, "evil" and sentient agent with the single aim of polluting human morale is peurile, ideological, mischievous and markedly in error. We are agents of morality far, far before and because we are agents of evidence."
- Paul Gallagher

pelican wrote: "There are already school counsellors to deal with personal issues or problems students might face and while they all bring their own personalities, biases and prejudices with them they are not their on a proselytizing premise."

Dear pelican,

I wish your statement was true. There are not enough school counsellors to take of the needs. It is estimated that one in five students have mental problems which the chaplains are not qualified to deal with. There have been cases where school counsellors have been replaced by chaplains because the chaplains are cheaper.

People who might be good school counsellors are not training for it since the employment opportunities are not there.

McREal

'I oppose ga ga and Kylie as much as I oppose Chaplains and Imans. I oppose slutty kids, slutty teens, and slutty adults (of both sexes).'
Its a pity a few more of the secular high priests and politicians don't at least share some your values that originates from Scripture.

You are probably right david f. The resources for special needs is also lacking.

That is why it is a shame that the money spent on Chaplains can't be used more wisely.

Noooooo! The meteors have struck the planet. We have all these goulish, half witted, Bible bashers let loose on our kids without anyone bothering to check whether they secretely have a Bible stashed up their jumpers. They have managed to suck the brains out of our kids and turn them into non thinkers, and....
Honestly... I have been tracking this blog and the contributions by 'rationalists', and I've got to say that I haven't seen much in it that appears rational. If you're going to claim to be rationalists, then I think that by definition, you have to be a tad rational. And that requires you to be knowledgable on the subject upon which you are seeking to be rational. I don't see much knowledge either.
A question: Is it any less rational to believe in something bigger than you than to propound fear based on hysteria.
I suspect that one of the reasons why people of a faith struggle to engage people of 'reason' and vica versa is because both spheres are addressing equally important but different issues.
About now, some of you might be wondering... is he one of us, or one of them? I'm a bit of both... happily!!