Is this our weekly comedy segment?

I was educated by Anglican nuns. From them I learned the high Anglican version of Christianity.

These nuns were exceptional women who did not indoctrinate us, and allowed us to learn widely. They were dedicated to educating girls for careers, very much ahead of their time.

They taught us to respect other faiths. They taught us to see human beings first, and their religious affiliation second. Their most important and unforgettable teaching was that God is love.

I haven't been a Christian for a very long time, in terms of belonging to any religious institution. I'd be described as an atheist. I don't know if there is or isn't a god, or what form that god might take should he or she exist. Unlike the author of this article, I'm not covering my bases and committing to belief just in case. I would find that an ethically unacceptable, half hearted reason for a belief that seems to me to demand strong commitment if it is to mean anything.

I have the utmost sympathy with Christopher Hitchens' increasing distaste for and anger at Christian institutions. My own anger and distaste has similarly increased over the years.
I will not go into all the reasons for that here.

My point is, I was brought up in the Christian faith, and I left it a long time ago and nothing I've seen thus far has tempted me to return.In retrospect, I can see that we girls were miraculously fortunate to have encountered that particular group of religious women at that particular time.

"...as with all atheists, Christopher is his own chief opponent. As long as he can convince himself, nobody else will persuade him," the author notes. It is precisely this arrogant dismissal of any view that does not correspond with their militant Christian perspective that brings believers into increasing disfavour in the modern world. This attitude becomes increasingly more dangerous, and more threatening to stability in a world that is crying out for acceptance of difference if it is to survive.

God, my Christian friend, is love.

“Yet, in 2010, Christianity is being pushed underground. Thanks to “multiculturalism”, books by uncelebrated believers, like Peter, are shunned.”
“Pushed underground”?? Hardly, Ben-Peter - Christianity is too frequently, and currently, manifest as the modern equivalent of Mars: “Onward Christian Soldiers, marching as to war”. We have Koran-burning in the USA; two gratuitous Papal incursions into Spain in determined campaigns to re-capture territory lost since dictator Franco’s death; the Catholic-only “World Youth Day” expeditionary force into Sydney at great expense to the largely non-faith Australian public; invasion of secular public education in Australia by school chaplains - publicly funded contrary to law pertaining to education; Voting direction inaccurately and improperly suggested against a particular party in the recent federal election by a Christian Archbishop. And that is far from a complete list.
Ben-Peter, open your eyes to the truth if you wish to be saved - from make-believe in this case. Rather than being pushed underground, the reality is a clutching at straws by an organization in fear of drowning; and to be saved, there is a need to face up to reality. Christianity, like a multiplicity of other religions, has many decently moral adherents. It should be given respect where respect is due; and disrespect where it sweeps objectionable actions under a carpet of pretence - as in this article.

Briar – your own comments suggest you are an agnostic (not an atheist). It is also interesting how you associate Christianity with church attendance(because I certainly don’t want to do that). But the more free speech the better, I say.

"" .. in 2010, Christianity is being pushed underground. Thanks to “multiculturalism”, books by uncelebrated believers, like Peter, are shunned. ""

Books like P Hitchen's are not being shunned because of multi-culturalism; and, Christianity is not being pushed underground, it is just being shunned as people rationalise its messages
.

Colin Sett:

The fact that the media has highlighted a few people burning a Koran only reinforces my point. Bibles are burned across the world on a regular basis with no media coverage.

And you raise the question of chaplains or a so-called “invasion”? Incidentally, left-wingers are trying to drive them out of schools. Do you miss the communist terror state?

But thank you for showing your Christophobic attitudes in public. When atheists and their enablers manifest and say “open your eyes to the truth if you wish to be saved” they are simply projecting

History Buff - I associate Christianity with more than attending church - basically, it's the exclusivity, and militant disrespect for any other position that seems to be an intrinsic part of institutional religion that I think has to be constantly challenged, because it's dangerous to human well-being.

At university I studied a philosopher called Emmanual Levinas. He wrote about the need to respect the other simply because the other is human, and that from this initial respect, all other ethics will flow. Hospitality, he argues, is the first ethical act, hospitality in its broadest sense as in welcoming the other into encounter and dialogue.

It is possible to respect the other and disagree with their position, and that is where so many Christian institutions seem to be unable to go.In this respect they are little different from any other militant religions.

I am unable to accept that it is an act of love to condemn the other on the basis of a difference of belief. I note that none of the Christian arguments that have appeared in OLO lately ever mention love. They are doctrinaire, and militant, and threatening, in the sense of expressing their belief than non Christians will somehow suffer horribly for their error in judgement.

I have a visceral distaste for threats, and want nothing to do with any institution that relies on them, be it Christian, Muslim or anything else.

But I do still believe that the nuns taught me - that god is love, and I wonder why these Christian writers don't ever mention that?

God is love, eh, Briar!

I have seen many times Christian American soldiers praying before they go out on patrol where they will try to kill as many Muslims as they can.

And, of course, many Muslims, who also believe in a god of love, are waiting for the invading Americans and will kill as many of them as they can.

God and love would seem to be a contradiction in terms!

I think that is exactly my point, David.

God and love are not contradictory terms, but the ways in which much religion is lived out have made them exactly that. Your examples demonstrate clearly just what I mean.

DavidG writes

'I have seen many times Christian American soldiers praying before they go out on patrol where they will try to kill as many Muslims as they can.'

He obviously ignores in peace time the tens of thousands of Secularist ignoring their conscience before killing the unborn for the sake convenience. This is a lot more straight forward than the complex moral arguements about war. Stalin and Mao also show how the blind dogma of secularism shows little value for life.

I think you're all getting confused between people and faiths.

@ runner - good of you to acknowledge secularists have a conscience. Yep, need to do more to promote contraception to reduced that abortion rate, as it is clear abstinence doesn't work (even for those professing it)

Don't forget Stalin used his religious piety (partly due to his Seminary training) to open churches, theological schools and bring back the priests and holy icon 'Our Lady of Kazan' in Leningrad during WW2.

Mao was fed up with imperialism fawned by evangelising.

Why is it in this day and age, that when ever anyone turns or returns to religion, they almost always choose some form of archaic dim-wit-ism?

All the "God" and "Gods" of Man are, whether "Male" of "Female" in their descriptive gender, merely the personal and collective TRIBAL, and entirely dualistic myths created by the fear based human ego-mind.

A modified quote from an essay titled Religious Stupidity & Scientific Genius.

"....our concept of the future must be projected against the infinite scale of the total universe, rather that the provincial scale represented by gross self-interest, ancient tribal ad national divisions, or even the scale represented by the Earth or by Man himself.

....What is commonly recognized and sometimes defended as religion in our Age is only the most superficial and factional and most often dim-minded and perverse expression of ancient national and tribal cultism...

...In this Age of worldwide political and social interdependence, of super technology, and the atomic bomb, and of esoteric (quantum) sciences of the kind initiated by intellectual geniuses such as Einstein, the people altogether must not fail to be equipped with a true, practical, supremely intelligent, universal, and fully esoteric understanding and practice of Spiritual religion.

If they remain in the embrace o the archaic, myth-laden, exoteric, DIVISIVE religions of the past, they will only be subject to exploitation and negative dominance by the superior esotericism and popular persuasiveness of scientific materialism. To persist in the old cults, is, in effect, to be bereft of religion in the Age that is upon us."

Four references which offer a completely different Illuminated Understand of Truth & Reality, and a thorough-going critique of archaic religiosity.

http://www.dabase.org/dht7.htm

http://global.adidam.org/books/religion-reality-5.html

http://www.dabase.org/rgcbpobk.htm

http://www.beezone.com/up/dogmassoicalmorality1.html

Still comes back to the burden of proof lies with the inventor not the disbeliever. It is not a sin to seek evidence not matter what form it might take. I suspect Christopher Hitchins is not about 'persuading himself' as purported but seeking others to persuade with proof.

It is cringeworthy to read statements like "anti-Christian" media. Why on earth raising issues of child abuse in the Catholic Church or unsound business practices is "anti-Christian" is bemusing.

Seeking from people a respect for different faiths (often the values are identical) is not "anti-Christian". Reporting on some Churches using the umbrella of religion to avoid paying tax and to amass millions for their leaders is not "anti-Christian". It is about accountability and ethical behaviour which applies to all and why Christians should expect less scrutiny that the rest of us is a mystery.

I cannot think of any example of media reporting that is genuinely anti-Christian.

P. Hitchins may have gone back to his faith but that is his choice and he should not belittle his brother's choice to remain an atheist. It is arrogant and feels like insecurity to assume that his choice should be his brother's as well.

"At last, and inevitably, the ancient exoteric rulerships have failed, and "official" exoteric Christianity (along with all the other "great-world-religions", of merely exoteric religion-power) is now reduced to all the impenetrable illusions and decadent exercises that everywhere characterize previously privileged aristocracies in their decline from worldly power.

Now exoteric Christianity is reduced to a chaos of competing corporate cults and BARNUM-esque propagandists that "rule" nothing more than chaotic frightened herds of self-deluded religion consumers.

Therefore, the myth of the cultural superiority of "official" Christianity has now come full circle. The "religious" mythologies of world-religions are not only now waging GLOBAL WARS with one another (like so many psychotic inmates of asylums for the mad, each confronting the other with exclusive claims of personal absoluteness), but the public masses of religion-bound people - who, all over the world, for even thousands of years, have been controlled in body and mind by ancient institutions of "religiously" propagandized worldly-power - are now in a globalized state of grossly-bound "religious" delusion and social psychosis".

Speaking of Barnum & Bailey circus events, the recent "catholic" world-youth-day held in Sydney fitted entirely within the domain of hyped religious consumerism.

When 'accredited' religions like Christianity stop getting tax breaks at everyone else's expense, then we will know they are being 'forced underground'. It can't happen a moment too soon.

McReal

you write

;@ runner - good of you to acknowledge secularists have a conscience. Yep, need to do more to promote contraception to reduced that abortion rate, as it is clear abstinence doesn't work (even for those professing it)'

even with your condom dogma suicide rates among teens continue to increase and as well as increases in std's and abortions. You are obviously more interested in your dogmas than helping young people live a life with a few morals that generally leads to a lot more happiness than the fruits of secularism (permissiveness).

Stik ya religion up ya shute. How many deadlines for the end of the world have passed now. I have my own religion thanks and it don't include your ramblings.

Hi All...

I'm an atheist and have so been since I served in SV with the Army, back in the late sixties. Rest of the time ('til my retirement) I was a copper.

Over the years I've seen some pretty 'ordinary' things, particularly crimes perpetrated against the person. And, I have absolutely no truck whatsoever, with people who profess to be Religious, or Christian.

Having said that, I must admit that it's been rare indeed (in over thirty two years) to come across individuals who resolutely profess to be Christian, to EVER engage in crimes of violence - or be in any way, accessorial to a crime of violence ! I recognise there will always be exceptions. Though few and far between, in my experience.

Of course anyone can tell you of the horrific crimes of violence committed against the most vulnerable or assailable by the Christian Churches. This is very shameful, but true !

Actually, it's more the 'individual' to whom I refer, not a group or organisation. Crimes of all types and grievousness have been committed by every sector of society...those from the depths of humanity, to those that emanate from the patrician and noblest echelons of society, none are exempt.

Yet, in my humble experience, the committed Christian person, 'seem' to avoid perpetrating those awful crimes that occasion severe PHYSICAL hurt upon another human being. Why, I have absolutely no idea at all ? As I stated at the outset, I'm an atheist!

Cheers...Sung Wu.

runner, contraception is probably un-related to teen suicide, except perhaps for those with cognitive dissonance from trying to marry theistic woo thinking with their hormones and their feelings for others.

Secularism does not equate to or correlate to permissiveness.

Morals are good and worth teaching kids, as happens in most homes and all schools.

McReal

'Secularism does not equate to or correlate to permissiveness.'

You could of fooled me and myriads of parents as they vote with their feet. You also ignore the number of sexually used up teenagers who top themselves due to lack of any self worth after being used time and time again. Generally they copy the secular values or lack of they feed on the internet and TV. I don't see Christian orgainations supporting the porn industry like many secular people demanding their right to view this garbage despite the increase in child abuse.

btw I am glad that their is still enough of the Christian Judea ethic left in this country that allows even some secular parents to teach their kids decent values. Hopefully you will keep it up. Unfortunately it seems to be declining.

o sung wu

thanks for your honesty.

None of my Christian friends have committed crimes either, in fact my atheist friends have also been crime free thus far. Many serial killers in the US have been found to come from heavily fundamental Christian homes but they could hardly be called mainstream. Extremism of any sort is always a bad mix.

As someone said earlier it is not the religion or the lack of religion, but people that do wrong. If some need religion to get them through the night or to provide a values framework I for one am not going to stop them. As long as that religious authority is not misused for oppression (as has been the case historically) there is no harm. But that goes for any aspect of life.

Calling for the death of anyone who does not believe in a particular God is not what I would call a healthy attitude and is hugely anti-human.

Hi there Pelican...

I agree with you absolutely. Though, what I was trying to describe -
I've never known a committed Christian, a Christian person who seems to live their lives following a Christian style of ethical behaviour and principles et al.,to commit any crime of violence.

Using violence, as an answer or a solution to their problems, never seems to enter their respective head/s ? I'm not suggesting for a moment, they'll not engage in other ways (anonymous threats over the phone, vicious and cruel hate mail, etc) to satify their need for revenge, or satisfaction.

They seem to pause, right at that point, or at the very brink of actually engaging in physical violence.

Sorry, I've not explained myself very well at all. It's a peculiar occurrence that seems to apply ONLY to a committed Christian - an individual who, prima facie, lives a Christian style of life ?

I've made a mess of this, haven't I ?

Cheers...Sung Wu.

No mess O Sung Wu, you clearly expressed your opinion and I for one comprehended.

I would be most interested in learning [broadly and generally] some of your views from past experience, what you believe, could make a significant difference in lowering crime across the nation O Sung Wu.

Great if you could commence a thread for Aussies to read and contribute! For instance, to include the updating of legislation regarding Law/Courts, more police officers brought back to Australia for the beat, detectives returned from o/s to continue their work here, as opposed to spending lengthy periods o/s.

Whatever issues you see that could or should be addressed to strengthen our force and reduce crime figures [numerically and literally] O Sung Wu

o sung wu
No, please don't misunderstand I wasn't disagreeing merely adding some other perspectives.

Those who live truly by their Christian values are less likely to commit a crime but only if they are true to those values.

That goes for anyone's ethics and sense of integrity. The fact is the basic Christian values (for that matter most religions) are the values that most people take on board - thou shall not kill etc. These values were created by human beings and most of us naturally fall into those values as they are critical to quality of life and survival.

Much of it is commonsense including respect and lack of judgement (not sure if Christianity always wins out on that one) for those who may think differently.

Wasn't it Aristotle or Hippocrates who said "do no harm". That is a fundamental human premise.

But it's alright to covet your neighbours' goods, and even to steal them, so long as it's called "balance" and done by government, right Pelican?

Hi there...'We are Unique'

Gee, I don't know about that ? I suspect, if I were to initiate a specific thread on 'Law and Order', I reckon I'd be utterly howled down by pretty well all on OLO ?

Another thing, I'm absolutely NOT 'Politically Correct' either. That in itself would probably have me banned or barred or whatever ?

In my approaching 'dotage', I'm afraid I'm a little too old to adopt a more 'gentle line' when advancing an arguement, or giving an opinion on issues such as Law and Order.

Sorry, 'We are Unique'.

Cheers...Sung Wu.

I don't know Jefferson I have never coveted my neighbours goods. Don't judge everyone by your own standards.

Paying tax for universal law enforcement and healthcare is not coveting anyone's goods.

Exploiting cheap labour where no regulation exists is probably alright with you, but in my version of what would work best is some form of uniform rules about wages and conditions.

Coveting one's property is no different to coverting one's labour without fair recompense.