Dear o dear, Eclipse Now,
I didn't mean to upset you. As you've said, I don't know you, and I've only been using your example, which you instanced, as my third person rhetorical illustration. According to Marx's philosophy you, and myself, are everything I've rhetorically said you are. I'm quite aware of the impossibility of realising utopian dreams, but I don't recoil from that to seeing our society as somehow negatively vindicated; and I find Marx's theory of the alienated capitalist self compelling. And I'm hardly in an ivory tower having spent most of my adult life working on factory floors!
But you're right, I don't see the point discussing Marx any longer.

I completely agree with you by the way about reinventing urbanisation and making cities pedestrian centres, with perhaps bicycles, electric vehicles for the disabled, and clean and efficient public transport etc etc. I shall look at the links you provide.

Very late in this discussion, for reasons beyond my control. However, I'd just like to register my appreciation for Frank Brennan's excellent article.

If more prominent Christians were like Fr Brennan, we'd all get along better. I don't suppose there's any chance of him replacing Pell as Catholicism's leading pontificator in Australia?

CJ 'Sinner' Morgan... welcome back, you've missed the discussion about the need for a moderator.... any thoughts?

Hi C J Morgan,

No chance. Not that long ago the loving Christians would be burning the good Friar at the stake for heresy. Father George would supply the matches.

Squeers,

I wrote strongly just to convey some exasperation with 3 posts full of Bulverism. What do you expect? I'm glad you're writing more honestly.

I'm not bored (I topped “Political Economy of the Welfare State” back when I completed my Social Science Advanced Diploma in 1994) but maybe this isn't on topc? Yet it's interesting to me.

Regarding Marx’s ‘alienation’. What about factory workers that recently immigrated to Australia from a country where they nearly starved? Imagine their gratitude for the factory job. Back home their family were nearly butchered, or nearly starved, but here? They just have to get up, go to work in a clean, fairly safe modern factory, make some friends at lunchtime, do something fairly easy compared to the work back in the homeland, and they get paid money for it! They get food and medical and maybe even public housing! If anything the job may even be *comfortingly* regular, predictable, and low stress job given their traumatic backgrounds.

I know a guy who has a Phd in micro-biology and genetics. He’s from Iran, and was being persecuted back there for being Christian. Now he’s a cleaner. He’s just SO HAPPY to be free to be a Christian here, and have a job that pays the rent, and see his kids going to good public schools. Alienation? Maybe for some, but they don’t appreciate that in terms of global population, to be on the dole in Australia is to be in the top 5% of the richest people in the world! Relative to CEO’s they are bankrupt, but with the basics and a public library, some are content.

I also note that you did not describe a Marxist design studio. Try to, or you’ll risk confirming everything I said about your previous posts.

However, this thread really is about Christians voting green. New Urbanism and public transport are just a few of the reasons I may just do so tomorrow morning!

PS: I think you’ll love Kunstler!
After TED
http://www.ted.com/talks/james_howard_kunstler_dissects_suburbia.html

...you’ll like this
http://kunstlercast.com/

Eclipse Now,

Perhaps I should have said that suburbia "has" been an integral component of such a system.

I will look at your links when I have a little more time.
I too like the idea of a walkable city.

C.J.
Welcome back.