So you are saying we should change from the last decade's method of meeting our carbon emissions reductions targets, i.e. by stealing carbon credits from unsuspecting Australian farmers. Stealing from farmers who were also doing it tough with the drought, seemed like a workable solution to meet our international commitments and not upset the vast majority of voters.

Whilst the city folk were out buying plasma televisions, our great leaders Howard and Rudd were crucifying our food producers and parading as international statesman and carbon gurus.

The whole point of persecuting one small group was to basically keep the larger group 'the urban voter', completely in the dark about how an ETS / CPRS / carbon tax or carbon trading would one day come and bite them in the bum. It's interesting that the GST was introduced at a time when the issue of carbon trading was also on the table.

The crunch time has arrived with this election. Suprizingly, we've now had a taste of this new carbon world in the form of rising electricity prices. If the electorate manages to sleep through this election campaign and give yet more power to the Greens which are the primary lobbyist for their pain, they will only have themselves to blame.

Don't turn your protest vote into a self inflicted permanent injury. Climate change has been occurring since the beginning of time. There is nothing unusual or extraordinary about late 20th Century warming, except that you are viewing it on a wide screen.

I think it's way past time to make a decision on this -like a decade past time. Like with the republican debate, we'll all end up not getting what we want because those who don't want action of any sort will have the ETS people too busy fighting the direct tax people fighting the 'lets revamp the whole tax system' people fighting the direct action people and 450 ppm will pass with Australia still building coal plants and more coal mines. And coal seam gas and natural gas and shale oil projects.

The misinformed 3D'ers that spout unchecked untruths as standard practice (Canada had it's warmest and driest winter on record BTW - http://www.treehugger.com/files/2010/03/canada-winter-2009-2010-warmest-driest-on-record.php#ch01 - remember the trucks carrying snow to the winter Olympics? Overall +4 degrees C but some parts were as much as +7.5 degrees C above average!) will no doubt cheer this victory by default over science based policy.

In case anyone thinks the link I provided above represents a 'treehuggers' distorted version of data for Canada - the original can be found at http://www.ec.gc.ca/adsc-cmda/default.asp?lang=En&n=8C03D32A-1

Meanwhile Europe continues a long term trend of warmer winters (and warmer summers and springs and autumns) and even if the most recent winter was cooler than the previous decade(ever heard of natural variation?) it wasn't enough to reverse or even particularly slow that trend - Europe continues to show warming greater than the global average. It certainly doesn't represent the imminent global cooling we've been told about for a couple of decades now by 3D'ers but that has yet to show any sign of arriving.
FWIW Europe data is here for those who prefer fact over assertion - http://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/indicators/global-and-european-temperature/global-and-european-temperature-assessment-3

I can't be bothered checking every 'fact' Jon J (and others) presents. Given that his version - "the coldest Canadian and European winter in decades" - is, with respect to Canada, the complete opposite of the truth and with respect to Europe, highly misleading, I suggest people be deeply sceptical of (ie go and check) his utterances

I agree JonJ… a solution looking for a problem

And the problem with that is

The inevitable intervention of

“The law of unintended consequences”

Any new tax, even if there is merit in it… like GST replacing the “whores breakfast” of Aussie Sales Tax and VAT replacing the old UK Purchase tax will always face elector resistance, the suspicion and cynicism of taxpayers, having been raped in the past, maybe.

But lets face it,

a carbon tax in any form, is not based on auditable results or influences – unlike direct taxes
It is not associated with specific goals – unlike FBT (one of the most regressive and inefficient taxes ever inflicted upon an electorate)
But at least its “application” and its “benefits match – they are both “theoretical” and not “Factual”, “Actual” or “Auditable”

And the benefit is, supposedly, to achieve a "theoretical outcome", to which Australia is an insignificant contributor or influence.

I can advise the most likely result of this tax….

That, regardless of all the hype, hand wringing and emotional chest beating,

A carbon tax will fail because

Its only impact will be to reduce the life quality of Australians by denying / reducing their discretionary income;

Whilst simultaneously reducing Australian employment opportunities (don’t tell me the green industries employ people… they do… but at half the hourly rate of real jobs);

And because of the contraction of domestic demand, reduce Australian trade competitiveness through reduced price flexibility in other markets.

All of which makes it a pretty negative proposal which will go nowhere


But at least Gavin is prepared to put forward his ideas and I thank him for that.


I see my fellow thinker, hasbeen, has made similar, sensible comment and sound observation to any electoral desire.

Ken Fabos, I know where your coming from, the opposite direction to me


As one of those supposed “The misinformed 3D'ers” (although the ‘3’ intrigues me, maybe Kens phone service)


Spouting of “unchecked untruths as standard practice”


The Trotskyite and leftwing extremists, who infiltrated AGW zealots have a monopoly there.

I am simply "sceptical"