That is far too sensible a suggestion for anyone to take seriously, Ludwig.

>>So, what should we do? We should, as a matter of great urgency, relieve ourselves of our dependence on oil.<<

And coal, for that matter. (For power generation that is, we should still sell as much of it overseas as we can dig up.)

But the idea that non-renewable energy resources must, repeat must, be eventually replaced by renewables, is so simple that a reasonably articulate five-year-old can make the case, cogently and irrefutably.

The only question needs to be "with what".

If all the scientists, both warmist and sceptic, would stop trying to argue a position that simply perpetuates division, and turn their attention to replacement technology, we'd have the whole thing licked in a decade. Unfortunately, it is now something of a gravy-train for both camps.

And if in fifty years time, when we are fully renewables-powered, and the climate is still warming happily away - or has regained a more temperate equilibrium - then one or the other side can say "I told you so", if it gives them satisfaction.

Or more likely, "my dad told you so".

It seems an issue in this debate is the number of ulterior agendas being followed. Requirements for energy will only increase not decrease. If the debate is about ensuring supply of energy then let it be that, don't hide it in another debate. Integrity does matter.

Phillip Adams once allegorised the election of an atheist as Pope to the election of governments that don't want to govern. Laissez faire appeals to freedom with opposition to 'socialism' believing markets will 'solve' problems is naive – markets serve those with power to achieve their personal interest.

As I posted earlier look at how the Danes set about addressing energy; but whether Australia has become a culture purely of self interest and can consider others/future generations remains to be seen.

Paul @ Bathurst makes some very pertinent observations, so too Ludwig.

As has been suggested, a carbon market will just end up as an another dirivatives market, where Icelanders pay alot of money for something they do not understand and end up losing their sealskin shirts

If I favour anything it is Ludwigs observation that market forces will rally to the occasion, as they always do.

Those who don’t like to leave things in the hands of market forces are merely trying to divert some of your discretionary income into their pet projects and fetishes ,

Which is politely called

collectivism by stealth

regarding Paul@Bathurst later comment “believing markets will 'solve' problems is naive”

and being governments can solve problems is plain stupid.

Capitalism might be considered Laissez faire but being subordinate to the whims of a government, elected to supposedly represent, not rule, is despotic

Like one politician said

Democracy is the worst form of government except for every other form so far tried

Likewise

Free market capitalism is the worst form of ownership, except for every other form so far tried

Stern's comments bring up some axioms we seem to work to, Democracy and Free market capitalism as truisms.

Where do we see democracy and/or free market capitalism?

In democracy we argue for democratic rights but who argues for democratic responsibilities? With markets name a place where they are free? These are myths.

Both these tools are seen as being successes yet during GFC it was government intervention that was used to rescue the market. In similar vein it is government intervention that is being called for to address climate change through tools such as Kyoto protocol and CPRS type legislation.

If markets are a success why aren’t they of their own accord dealing with climate? Markets have always been governed by those with power abusing it requiring some corrective force. My point is these tools don’t address the issue in the absence of the need for democratic responsibilities.

The tools are neutral. Their outcome will be determined by what collectively we regard as our democratic responsibilities; and the collective responsibilities will set boundaries on how the tools are used.