The main issues with Dr Jayant Patel were the lack of oversight by the QLD Health authorities in assessing his pre-entry record, and lack of supervision once here.

All medical professions require some degree of accountability and oversight, as well as support. In the meantime, I will continue to go to and recommend my excellent local Indian GP.

[Deleted for abuse].

As a Doctor I have considerable experience working with Overseas trained doctors. Asa general rule they are not up to the standard of Australian trained doctors. I have worked with some in the hospitals whom the hospitals administration would not allow to work by themselves. The administration was so concerned with their training and abilities that they had to be constantly supervised by an Australian doctor.
This article by Dr Ahmed is littered with subjective bias and misleading comments. For instance

"Moreover, they worked in areas where locally trained doctors would not."

"overseas-trained doctors serving our rural and remote communities."

"They have treated thousands of patients, delivered babies at small local hospitals and stayed on call seven days a week."

"filling a need in remote communities"

The truth is that these doctors are simply trying as best they can to gain residency in a rich western country where they can line their pockets and live a rich western lifestyle. They are made to by law, work in areas of medical need for a specified time before they can have access to claim medicare payments. They do not, in no way, do this out of the goodness of their hearts or for compassionate reasons. They do it to gain residency. Dr Ahmed tries to give the distinct impression that they do this because they are good people, "serving our rural and remote communities", "filling a need". Rubbish, they do it to gain Australian residency to get rich.


Dr Ahmed states there objective...
"They are forming the most successful immigrant group in the world, as measured by education status and income."

I'm sure they are very well off. I have worked with them in private practice. They illegally charge higher medicare item numbers to defraud medicare. Every few months doctors are given a report from the medical practitioners board regarding investigations of doctors for misconduct. This is usually full of OTDs.

Continued....

Dr Ahmed states
"Their lower pass rates in the required training examinations"

Why is that?

Also
"Overseas doctors are now known as international medical graduates, a term believed to be less stigmatised."
So now we are using politically correct terms to disguise the truth.

Dr Ahmed then gives away their true motivation..
"Douglas believes those who have not yet received permanent residency, or are still trying to gain Australian qualifications, will miss out once local graduates become available."


Also..
"This in spite of their huge personal and financial sacrifices to help serve needy areas."

Yes out of the goodness of their hearts.

In addition to what has been said there are hundreds of doctors now working in australia that were given free, yes free Medical degrees paid for by Australian taxpayers and in addition free accommodation and living expenses paid for by Australian taxpayers. This was done to provide free training for people from developing countries to become doctors so that they can return to their countries and contribute to developing their countries. However most of these doctors just after completing their medical degrees suddenly decide to apply for Australian residency, with total disregard for the hundreds of thousands spent on them by Australian taxpayers. The final result is we take people from an overseas, pay their full expenses tuition and living expenses to become an Asutralian doctor whilst some Australian taxpayers son or daughter misses out.

Unlike the previous poster I look forward to Leigh's educated and truthful comments on such topics

I think we've established Ozzie that you aren't really a doctor ;-)

Even if you were, what type of doctor spends so much time venting his hatred on a website? Shouldn't you be curing cancer? Thank God or Allah for the overseas doctors.

I agree with JJ, Leigh's comments are usually rubbish.

jjplug - you are out of order.
Kindly respond to viewpoints you disagree with rather than pre-empting anyone else's possible posts.

An overseas (Egyptian) doctor working in the Public Hospital system inspired me to purchase top level private medical insurance in the late 80s. I had absolutely no intention of letting him near me or mine should we ever need hospital treatment.

Having said that - there are variable levels of competence across the board no matter where the doctor comes from or trained. The most trusted gut surgeon in my area is Sri Lankin. There are several other specialists of Eastern/Middle Eastern background who also enjoy good reputations and one who doesn't. Similar for Australian counterparts.

As McReal wrote: " main issues with Dr Jayant Patel were the lack of oversight by the QLD Health authorities in assessing his pre-entry record, and lack of supervision once here."

Absolutely! Patel is convicted & sentenced. However the persons responsible for his appointment and subsequent lack of follow up should be sharing his cell.

I agree with Tanveer Ahmed that average Australians have some initial difficulty with non-western, english second language Doctors. Quite natural, but also quickly overcome once patients find the doctor capable and trust established. One critical point I make is about language. OS Doctors need to speak and understand English WELL. Not all do. This becomes potentially dangerous as well as frustrating for patients. There are also odd cases of medicos from different cultural backgrounds dealing inappropriately with patients, particularly female. The OS doctor needs induction training into what is acceptable in the Australian setting.

Apart from that - we have been importing Medical professionals for as long as I can remember and given lack of adequate intake of students to fulfil Australia's requirements, will continue to do so. Provided proper systems are in place to ensure those imports meet appropriate standards AND followed carefully - problems will be rare.

Most do an excellent job and are quickly embraced by communities they serve - especially in rural and remote areas. Keep up the good work guys!

[Deleted for abuse].

@ozzie: I can understand your comment starting "as a general rule ..." and 'a point' about *some* (or even "a lot from certain institutes") requiring a lot of supervision.

But, you then use blanket terms - "" these doctors are simply trying as best they can to gain residency in a rich western country where they can line their pockets and live a rich western lifestyle"

""there are hundreds of doctors now working in australia that were given free, yes free Medical degrees paid for by Australian taxpayers and in addition free accommodation and living expenses paid for by Australian taxpayers. ... after completing their medical degrees suddenly decide to apply for Australian residency, with total disregard for the hundreds of thousands spent on them by Australian taxpayers.""

So what? ... Oh ... " The final result is we take people from an overseas, pay their full expenses tuition and living expenses to become an Asutralian doctor whilst some Australian taxpayers son or daughter misses out."

And then this says a lot ... "I look forward to Leigh's educated and truthful comments on such topics"

Leigh has not posted on this thread and I have deleted the abusive first post from jjplug as well as another following-on from it. Trying to provoke comments by Leigh and criticising him in advance for what he hasn't said is not permissible.

But habitually making racist comments is fine?

We don't have discussions about particular moderation decisions on the site. All that does is extend the original problem as it is impossible to discuss without referring to material which has been removed.

People are entitled to make comments in this forum which might be regarded as racist by some. That does not make them racist or illegal, and it does not give anyone licence to start abusing commenters, either specifically, or in general for something they may, or may not, have said.

So, can we move on?

Thankyou, Graham. It is a bit rough when people make remarks about me before I've even switched on my PC, let alone posted anything.

This is the sort of thing that has lead me to scan posts upwards in order to see the names of posters first. [Deleted].

I have now read Tanveer Ahmed's,article, and I totally agree with it. I also empathise with his exaggerated 'Australianism' since the Patel case.

I know absolutely nothing about the the qualifications or abilities of overseas doctors. I do know that many country towns would not have doctors if it were not for them - Indians included. My 92 year old mother had been cared for by an Indian doctor in a country town.

Patel is a bad man, and an incompetent doctor who has been found guilty of harming patients and is in jail pending an appeal. I hope the appeal judges reject the appeal, and lengthen his sentence.

Patel's type of evil could easily appear in a doctor of any race, with any sort of training. I'm sorry to disappoint those people who are convinced that I'm a racist.

Generally I think patients work out pretty quickly the good and not so good doctors. Where I live you need to book a long way in advance to see the doctors that people are happy to put their faith in. I have had a couple of bad experiences with doctors who could not speak English. They were bad doctors simply because they could not communicate at higher than grade 2 English. How they got accepted here I will never know. I think Regional areas become the training ground for some of these doctors.

The elephant in the room is the lack of supply of Australian doctors and specialists, which is linked in turn to the ham-fisted policies of both of the major political parties. The same problem is evident in nursing.

However it is not just in medicine and nursing that government has shown scant regard for educating and advancing its own youth, as evidenced by the continuing demand for overseas skills.

It seems that this article seeks to influence bodies representing doctors, and it can also be assumed a similar push would be aimed at the government bodies concerned with maintaining medical standards, on how they elect and appoint their members. However, as a consumer I am most concerned that the tests of comparable competence and satisfactory record of performance alone be applied as is the present case. Also, a lot of work has already been put into streamlining application (for professional recognition) processes in Australia and I would not like to see any pressure to reduce standards that could result in an inferior service being supplied in country and remote areas just so government can say it is providing treatment.

While the article is long on the usual myths and claims of discrimination and unfair treatment to make its case, it is very short on evidence to support those allegations. On the other hand, anecdotal evidence abounds that the public is discriminating in the right way of course and can be relied upon to support doctors who deliver a good service.

Frankly I find articles that dump on the general population as closet racists are usually ill-informed and wrong. Anyone who has ever had anything to do with people in country areas would be adamant that they are very thankful for any medical services they receive. What farmer with a crush injury, woman with an impending difficult birth, or parent with an acute fever sees the skin colour or origin of medical staff as impediments or as even relevant? It is word of mouth for kindness and competence that figure and as a given, availability.

Runner's comment on some doctors not being able to speak English properly is important. A doctor, no matter where he or she comes from might be brilliant medically, but if they cannot communicate well in the language of the country in which they wish to practise, they should not be permitted to practise medicine. People's health is just too important to tolerate poor communicaton skills.

I find the Indian accent very difficult to follow, but I also have problems understanding some Scottish accents, and some English and German accents - even though these three nationalities make up my own racial background.

Quite frankly, the problem lies with Australian authorities who should be vetting all applicants. They are clearly not doing this. Perhaps they don't even speak to the foreign doctors, and leave it to an immigration agent who is interested in his own turnover.

In another field, my daughter tried to get a Chinese chef on a 457 visa - good chefs being hard to find. She was assured, several times, by an agency that the man could speak good English. When he arrived, it was evident that he could not speak a word of English.

Australians are being hoodwinked into believing that all sorts of professional people from overseas are suitable for Australia, which they are definitely not. It all goes back to John Howard's era when it was much easier to import people than train our own. And, a change of government has done nothing to improve that situation; it has worsened in fact.

I agree with Leigh in that there should be at least a basic english language communication skill requirement for all health employees recruited to work within the Australian health system.

If they speak and understand more than one language, then even better, given our multicultural society.

The basic problem however,is that there are not enough Doctors and Nurses to serve the needs of both metro and rural Australian health patients.

This problem is not new of course. 25 years ago I was busy trying to explain to patients what Chinese doctors had just said to them. Although I could not speak any Chinese languages, I was able to understand their broken English speech after working with them for some time.

Patients back then complained about Asian doctors not understanding them, but now most people accept Asian doctors if they are good doctors, just the same as they decline or accept Australian-born doctors depending on how good they are perceived to be.

I live in a country area now, and the most popular doctor at our local hospital, by far, is an African-born GP who had a hard time with English and racism when he first arrived here.

People arriving at the emergency department now ask if he is on duty when they arrive, and are happy to see him. Almost all the local GPs refuse to go on a roster for our emergency department anymore, so we had to advertise overseas. What else could we do?

Many Australian-born, English speaking doctors are just not prepared to go to some country areas in Australia, so what else is the Government to do to provide medical coverage for remote areas?

Give these new foreign-born doctors a go before you condemn them,
You might just like what you see.

[Deleted for being only provocative].

[Deleted. We are not going to continue the personal argument.]