There does appear to be something in the male psyche that stops them from going to a doctor for a health check, but I have noticed that men will queue up to get a health check if nurses or doctors actually carry out these checks at the workplace.

So perhaps carrying out more health checks at the workplace is a means of getting more men to undergo health checks.

Men pay for most of the health budget, and should be getting something back.

The other thing that is necessary is for an Office for the Status of Men, to help present a more complete picture of men and boys in society, and help overcome the denigration, bigotry and demonisation of men carried out by people such as university feminists.

The demonisation of men does have an impact on men’s lives, and does diminish their importance in society (which would be the main reason why so many feminists do it).

Awhile ago there was the concept that men took better care of their cars then they did of themselves, so there was a 10 point tune plan for men.

I was at my butcher's the other day. I noticed he was walking a little stiffly and asked after his health. He explained that he was suffering from sciatica, had been for 2 years, but only had it diagnosed last week.

I said there were straightforward exercises he could do that both helped to prevent and alleviated the pain. He replied that his doctor had given him a set of exercises to do and he was implementing them. I was able to tell him that I too suffered from the condition and that the last time I had a bad episode, I did the exercises and didn't even have to go to the physio.

Talking helps doesn't it? Good to see this article, but couldn't help notice the overlap of issues which are as pertinent to men as they are women. From the GP's advice to take a pill and rest, to overly expensive specialists to the problems of body image.

Time for men to be as human as the rest of us and seek help when they need and kudos to men like Peter West to speak out, thus encouraging others.

Another book is Lloyd Bradley's "The Rough Guide to Men's Health", published by Penguin. Too many books out there about building muscle and not much else (?). Come on guys, there are plenty of male writers and health experts and a huge market just waiting for you.

Severin,
"Time for men to be as human as the rest of us"

Would this be the all time clasic for a feminist supporter?

Men do seek medical help and do talk about any medical problems, if the environment is suitable enough.

Why does discussion of men's issues always come back to health? Sure health is important but what about the well-being part, quality of life, living a good life and so on?

They are thinking and emotional beings, not just, so what about a little philosophy thrown in? What is it like to be a male, how could life be improved for them etc?

Talk with older men and they say that they often felt alone because they were always encouraged to be 'independent', which was interpreted as standing on their own fee without the help or support of others. That is a hard row to hoe. Similarly men have to be a 'success', but the traditional definition of success is locked in with work, keeping a family and material things. OK stuff I suppose but where is the man, the human, in there?

What I am saying is isn't it time to think outside the box, not by re-visiting feminist constructs of masculinity (a blind gully if ever there was one), but by a practical (and men are very practical) look at how life can be made better and more enriching for boys, male youth and men?

Don't men feel the need to kick over the traces and carve out a better future?

James: <"Awhile ago there was the concept that men took better care of their cars then they did of themselves, so there was a 10 point tune plan for men.">

NSW had a health program called Pit Stop - sounds like the same thing James.

Anyway - good article.

Cormflower,
I’ll give a description of what we will need to do in the future, which is, to get off the planet and start and colonise other places.

Life is too precious to limit it through some type of population control, or population control systems should be short term only.

So coloninisation of other places is the rather large challenge facing men in the future.

I have heard other men talking seriously about this (including Stephen Hawkins) and organisations such as NASA are of course in the process of carrying out experiments in this area, but I have not heard anyone in Australia mention it.

This includes any university academic, most of which don't seem to have any long term plans except to denigrate white males as much as possible, and to put as much taxpayer's money into their own pockets as possible.

vanna,

Nil desperandum, you can be sure that whatever academics might claim, there are always others who will challenge them, in time. As well, the wheel turns eventually.

Here is a practical example relevant to men's health,

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/185_08_161006/mac10104_fm.html

Apart from that, have you had a look at http://www.manhood.com.au/ ? Where do men go to chew the philosophical fat re themselves, men, the future and everything?

An excellent article. Any article that encourages men to attend to their health needs is a good one.

However, then Vanna blusters in, beating his chest, and ruins the moment by carrying on about it all being the feminist academics fault again.

What on earth has any female university lecturer ever done to you Vanna?
It must have been something really ball-breaking!

I agree with Cornflower when he says we should also concentrate on men's way of life and how they enjoy it. Emotional and psychological health are every bit as important as physical health, for both genders.

I would have thought that many men get their fix of this sort of men-to-men support through sporting clubs etc.

I know my husband spends his golf round every week discussing his problems and good times with all his golf buddies. He comes home each Saturday from golf in a good mood, even if he plays badly!

I realise that not all men play sport, but I believe all men should make time, of some sort, each week to spend with just other men.
It is good for their souls.

Good article. I live in one of those rural areas where men's health stats are significantly poorer than those of women, and where every second bloke I know seems to sport some kind of chronic disease or injury and tends to drink too much and smoke. However, we do tend to talk to each other about it, and in such conversations I'm often struck by the lack of basic health knowledge many of my peers here have.

vanna: << I’ll give a description of what we will need to do in the future, which is, to get off the planet and start and colonise other places. >>

Now that's what I call thinking outside the square in terms of approaches to men's health and well-being. Might I suggest that you lead by example?

Cornflower: << Where do men go to chew the philosophical fat re themselves, men, the future and everything? >>

Where I live, it tends to be at the pub or when we go off on fishing trips together. After a few beers some blokes tend to wax very philosophical.

suzeonline: << I realise that not all men play sport, but I believe all men should make time, of some sort, each week to spend with just other men.
It is good for their souls. >>

Heh. When I first got together with my lovely partner, one of the first things she informed me was that she realises that the pub is "a man's church", where regular attendance is good for our spiritual health. Needless to say, we're still happily together and I'm a devout observer of devotional services ;)

>>> vanna: << I’ll give a description of what we will need to do in the future, which is, to get off the planet and start and colonise other places. >>

Now that's what I call thinking outside the square in terms of approaches to men's health and well-being. Might I suggest that you lead by example? <<<

CJ Morgan you rock my world.

Men being free to talk about themselves, without self-consciousness, embarrassment or feeling judged is slowly starting to become accepted. Hence the little anecdote about my butcher.

Given the numbers of men in medicine and allied services, I find it odd that there were so few self-help books targeted specifically at men. We as women, our children are harmed when our partners do not take care of themselves. In the pursuit of the unattainable level of stoicism that men are supposed to achieve, they lose themselves in the process.

C J Morgan, "she realises that the pub is "a man's church", where regular attendance is good for our spiritual health."

Either you are trying to trivialise my comment or you are part of the problem because 'solving' problems with alcohol is a major contributor to the ill-health and suicide of men. It is a wretched example for young men.

It would be different if men were meeting regularly in cafes to share some sun and conversation.

Severin, "I find it odd that there were so few self-help books targeted specifically at men."

Is that some of the blaming that was referred to in the link I gave previously? Have a read.

General comment
The question remains, who do men look to for leadership in Australia. Are there particular writers, philosophers, academics of worth?

Cornflower,
You wanted a description of the future and you got one. What's your problem?

One of the reasons Stephen Hawkins is keen on the idea of colonization of other moons, planets or space stations is because of the growing number of viruses on earth that are becoming more difficult to treat. If a virus becomes immune to most drugs (and many eventually will), it can wipe humanity out.

There is also the risk of nuclear war on earth, and the eventual depletion of resources necessary for supporting an increasing population.

There is a great lack of vision amongst men now in Australia, and vision and motivation are very important for men.

We have become a country of importers and workforce fodder for multi-nationals, and a country that denigrates the male population at every opportunity, and this is mainly lead by university academics and certain individuals in the media.

Not good for men's health in the short, medium or long term.

vanna,

Fair enough, that is your opinion and so be it, I will not argue with you.

However there may be others who don't see it that way and their views should also be heard.

Severin and CJ - I laughed out loud too! Thanks for that. CJ you are gifted!

Cornflower,

I rarely to never drink myself and even I enjoy an evening at the pub every month or two.

Hotels these days cater to a wide clientele; not just people getting legless.

I think most blokes can set a fair example of how to socialize in a way that doesn't include drinking too much, and maybe that's more valuable because it's an example others can follow. I don't know that all that many people will be inspired by a wowsery message that one needs to abstain to be healthy (which isn't true anyway).

Cornflower: <"General comment
The question remains, who do men look to for leadership in Australia. Are there particular writers, philosophers, academics of worth?">

That's a fascinating question Cornflower. Maybe you could start a general thread with it. I'd be most interested in anything the blokes had to say on that.

Cornflower

I second Pynchme's proposal. Who do men look to as role models? Just sports stars or a wide variety of men? Are there women they admire too?

I'd be very interested in your thoughts.

Thanks Severin and Pynchme - I try and ignore prats, but sometimes I can't help myself.

Speaking of which, Cornflower - you asked "Where do men go to chew the philosophical fat re themselves, men, the future and everything?". I simply provided an honest, if lighthearted, answer. Where I live, men who want to do those things go to the pub, or do so when engaged in recreational activities like fishing or golf. We generally don't get mindlessly drunk, but we do have extensive conversations about all kinds of things, i.e. "chew the fat". That's certainly what I do when I want male company.

Interesting that you think we should be "meeting regularly in cafes to share some sun and conversation" - what, like women do?

I agree with Severin and Pynchme that your question "...who do men look to for leadership in Australia. Are there particular writers, philosophers, academics of worth?" is an interesting one. As an Australian man I'd say that there are many and diverse answers.

While some men might look to writers, philosophers or academics, I suspect that most men who look for leadership would find it in sporting heroes, captains of industry, politicians, religious leaders etc. Personally, I'm not particularly keen on most 'leaders' I've encountered, but I understand that many people seem to need leadership - but I'm not at all sure that it's a gendered thing.

You could ask exactly the same question about women, and I suspect the answers would be quite similar.

"Personally, I'm not particularly keen on most 'leaders' I've encountered, but I understand that many people seem to need leadership - but I'm not at all sure that it's a gendered thing."

That pretty much sums it for me.

I can think of a few people who've been significant influences at key times. When I was a christian John Smith was someone I saw approaching life from some perspectives that I found inspirational. I loved the writing of Adrian Plass and at times been well challenged by an american sociologist Tony Campolo.

Smith and Capolo probably classify as leaders but both seem to do so in a way that's not just outward statements but reflected in how they live and the journey's they have chosen.

I've also really enjoyed work by Robert Fulghum and Patrick McManus.

Another writer who has really resonated at times is Barry Lopez.

I've not found or made enough opportunities to spend time with others for some years chewing the fat on some of the things that really resonate with me.

R0bert

C J Morgan, "Interesting that you think we should be "meeting regularly in cafes to share some sun and conversation" - what, like women do?"

No, like men do in some countries and I would say it is increasingly common for young men in Australia to do. Many of the senior managers and professionals I know are the same. Interesting you would see men as feminine for doing it though.

C J Morgan, "I agree with Severin and Pynchme that your question "...who do men look to for leadership in Australia. Are there particular writers, philosophers, academics of worth?" is an interesting one."

It is an interesting question and no, I didn't really expect you to be anything other than inane, dismissive and frivolous in reply. That seems to be your way where men's issues are concerned.

What Peter West is trying to do and I agree with him, is stimulate discussion among men. Now maybe that is not something you might favour, but it is long needed as shown by many of the serious preventable chronic conditions suffered by men and the number of suicides - especially by youth and seniors.

RObert,

Have you ever come across Steve Biddulph's Manhood or Michael Green's book on divorce? Green's book is worthwhile for both sexes, as is Biddulph's books.

What about some of the men on this site?

http://www.manhood.com.au/manhood.nsf/SpecialAdv!OpenPage

On a serious note: when my husband had some very serious health proplems the male doctor (rural town and only one dr) rejected, minimised and stalled him. The dr treated my beloved as though he was malingering.

When my husband was eventualy transferred to a major regional hospital and operated on for bowel cancer, infection caused further problems. While I was sitting at his bedside I observed that the male drs seem to have an attitude that men are tough and tough men will tough it out.

This odd male expectation meant that my husband's condition deteriorated until things were critical. After a few more ops, heart attack etc, things eventually turned out ok, my beloved is now fine, but the attitude of male drs towards men is part of the male health problem I suspect.

We now see a lovely young female dr in a nearby town and she listens carefully to my husband's health concerns and never belittles him. The attitude difference between male and female drs is amazing.

I think men should be demanding more from their drs as they can easily be put off by unsympathetic drs who expect their patients to man up and tough it out.

To be fair, in hospital the head surgeon was a great bloke and did not display this attitude, but most of his underlings did. The ICU drs and male nurses were also terrific and without fault.

I am positive that not all male drs are the same, just as I know not all female drs are warm and sympathetic.

But I believe that drs who don't listen, or belittle and minimise concerns should be held accountable and taken to task.

I would like to see men demand a better service from drs who don't take them seriously.

Aka: particularly in response to your experience:

Parents (both) are responsible for much male adult behaviour.

Fathers DO regularly say to very young males 'don't be a wuss'/ 'what are you a baby'? That kind of stuff.

Mums will tell young males that they are now 'the man of the house'.

None of these things are- in general* meant to harm. But they DO harm. (*And far more male toddlers are physically abused by men,-because they have not 'shaped up'/ not been 'a man').

I am convinced that MOST males have this indoctrination from early childhood.

It has an ongoing impact. And it causes (I'm not going to say 'can cause'), damage to that male, and in his attitude to others.

This attitude to toddler/ child/ adolescent males is so endemic that we don't even acknowledge that it is happening.

Ginx

It is all part of the impossible to live up to 'male mystique' from which men really need liberating.

That anecdote I told about my butcher, one thing he said was that no matter how bad his sciatica got that wouldn't stop him from turning up at work. The implication being that he was 'tougher' than any illness that may come along.

Yeah, right. I guess death ain't no biggie either.

Severin, Ginx

From the link I provided earlier:

"It’s Just 'Men Behaving Badly'

When writers try to broaden the biological perspective, often what is presented is a 'gender-relations approach' — a consideration of men’s socially conditioned oppressive behaviour and specifically 'hegemonic masculinity' (the dominance of men over women). The power imbalance between men and women is sometimes used to explain men’s health, including why men die at an earlier age than women.

An example of this concern with men’s negative behaviour, as an important factor to consider in men’s health, is found in the men’s health policy of the Doctors Reform Society of Australia (DRS).

"The DRS recognises that there are particular issues for men which affect their health. These issues can arise from the process of socialisation to compete and dominate in social and political spheres which can foster violence. As a result of this, many men experience a number of psychological difficulties, a reluctance to acknowledge and address their own health issues and diffidence in approaching health services."

There is a whole body of literature which seeks to explain the poorer health of men compared with women as being a result of 'masculinity', something endogenous (within men), and their adoption of unhealthy male stereotypes, rather than taking into account exogenous (exterior) factors. This 'pathologising perspective' can turn attention away from other social and political influences on health.

Fortunately, most doctors try to see their patients in the context of their lives and, consequently, see their male patients outside the ideological framework described above. The DRS policy, however, reflects a fairly common cultural view of men and so influences policy directives and can also affect professional practice. I believe that this approach is not based on evidence, but rather on certain negative assumptions about men.

Recently, this 'blaming men' perspective has been challenged in Australia, in the context of improving health services for men. Rather than trying to 're-educate' men who are reluctant to seek help and use health services, a preferred approach would be providing health services that better meet the needs of men."

Aka,

From the experiences of male relatives, some of whom are needlessly not with us any more, I have formed the distinct impression that the most prevalent problem seems to be stereotyping by providers and medical staff - this reflects the stereotyping by society. A common enough stereotype of older men is that they are useless and have no value to society. This must affect the services they receive.

I am sure I am not the only one who has noticed that older male relatives were treated almost casually by some medical providers and hospital staff. That could be as simple as being the last ones given routine services in hospital. Staff are always in a hurry and the older men might be the ones who usually drop off the end. They are lower on the pecking order and it doesn't help if they don't complain as loudly as they might.

Whether that is because older men feel they ought not assert themselves for fear of being seen as demanding or not I don't really know, but it isn't because the men don't need or want the service, treatment and care.

The best advice that can be given to an older male in particular is to yell loud and long, especially when in hospital, or else. As well, the older men do need a close relative to observe and ensure they are OK.

You are right there Cornflower.
When working on busy hospital wards, the last ones we tend to 'notice' are the quiet patients who rarely ring their bell or call out.

We attend to their scheduled tasks of course, like everyone else. However, it is only human nature for medical staff to have to first attend to those yelling loudest and most often.

And yes, it is usually older women and younger men who complain the most. Older men are usually the most docile, except on the mental health wards.

I can't see this changing any time soon, but if older men do decide to rebel and start yelling for attention, like the others, then I am glad I am out of the hospital workplaces :)

The socialisation aspect reminded me of an advertisement currently running on TripleM for Hard Yakka, I can't find the lyrics on line but for those who have not hear it you will get the guist of it at http://clients.austereo.com.au/hardyakka/

Whilst the add is very one dimensional and not designed to be taken too seriously I suspect it works because it matches the script so well.

For many the old script mentioned at the start of the article is still the script.

"The old script for men was simple. Perform, protect, provide. That meant work hard most of your life. Protect your loved ones - that usually meant your wife and children. And provide food, clothing and shelter for them. If they could get some time off, men would play sport, go to the pub, and grab what sex they could."

R0bert

suzeonline, Cornflower,

I know what you mean about older men needing to speak out, but in my husband's case he was unable to. I was speaking out, trying to get drs and nurses to listen to my concerns, and believe me, I am not known for being meek and mild and am capable of arguing with the best of them, but this mentality that blokes are invincible got me. Mind you some nurses treated my beloved like he was a senile man in his 90's instead of a strong man in his early 60's.

It is not just old men who get this attitude from GPs, but young men also have thier health concerns brushed off by many drs. I think the medical profession needs to look at how they can do things better, so that when men go in to see them, they are taken seriously.

Aka, I am sorry for the awful time your husband had when he was ill.
Certainly he had some poor quality medical help by the sound of it.

My husband is lucky to have a male GP whose special interest is men's health problems. He has blood tests etc every year, as an annual health screen, and this GP attends to all my husbands concerns diligently.

I too have a male GP who never dismisses my complaints - which can be annoyingly frequent because some nurses imagine themselves to have symptoms they always think will be fatal :)

On the other hand, I went to a female GP at the same practice, to have a 'female' examination, and she was rough and rude to me.

You will always find good and bad medical professionals, both male and female, just as you would in the wider community.