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The Forum > Article Comments > Legacy of a whingeing bogan > Comments

Legacy of a whingeing bogan : Comments

By Irfan Yusuf, published 7/6/2010

Why don't we have a consistent thread of resistance to racism running in our political and popular culture?

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Well said Irfan.

I agree that bogans have fast become one of the most complaining and maladjusted groups in Australian society.

The Liberals just look cheap chasing the bogan vote. Sadly, the bogans think that they are the majority. But they are not. The bogans are only a substantial MINORITY and an ill-educated and ill-behaved one at that.
Posted by David Jennings, Monday, 7 June 2010 11:17:51 AM
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Blame our recent leaders.
Bob Hawke and Paul Keating were never accused of racism and indeed Keating actively sought to place Australia within Asia. Gough went to China. Even Fraser accepted tons of reffoes with compassion and leadership.
But since Howard, who was always a 1950s racist of the old white Australia ilk, we have been led by those who happily use the race card and the dog whistle as part of their wedge politics and cultural wars. Along with the influence of the septics and self defeating actions of the terrorists, many have been given license to unleash their hatreds much more openly.

Racism has changed from a heinous personal flaw that it was in the 80s to an almost patriotic "boganness" that in some peoples eyes defines the "real" Australia. Mostly young and uneducated males, swayed by the likes of Abott, Hanson, Howard and the parrot to blame their failings on the blacks or the towelheads or chinks.

Rudd and the current Labor have done nothing to reverse this trend. Indeed their latest moves on Asylum seekers and the Aboriginal intervention show they are no different than the previous lot. Whether they are racist or just uncaring opportunists I dont know, nor care, it is just as disgusting either way.

Only leadership who sets the example and practices non racist polices and fights against the injustice caused by racism and exclusion will reverse this hateful trend in society and allow all Australians to live more harmoniously and successfully.
Posted by mikk, Monday, 7 June 2010 2:42:36 PM
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The same goes for whingeing Muslim bogans.
Posted by Leigh, Monday, 7 June 2010 2:44:00 PM
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Well said Mikk.
Posted by David Jennings, Monday, 7 June 2010 2:53:33 PM
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Given the amount of airplay this topic gets on this forum, I'm a little surprised at the question.

"Why are we rightly intolerant of certain kinds of intolerance toward Jews and yet tolerant of virtually identical kinds of intolerance directed at other groups?"

It's fear.

Just as it always has been.

Fear of the unknown, fear of "the other", the embers of which are fanned by carefully selected gobbets of "truth".

Charles Dickens provides illumination into the same syndrome with his portrayal of Jews in Victorian London. They were similarly vilified - even by supposedly intelligent people - for their usurious ways and "pound of flesh" mentality.

There's a neat cameo in Our Mutual Friend, where Fascination Fledgeby uses the Jew Mr Riah as the front man for his moneylending business, especially when he chooses to call in the Lammles' notes, forcing them to sell everything.

Since "everybody knew" that the Jews were unscrupulous, and enjoyed sending Gentiles bankrupt, everyone assumed the heart of stone was Mr Riah's.

But we grew out of anti-Semitism - at least, the overt and visceral version thereof. We grew out of wog-baiting - at least, most of us have. Some folk still get upset when third-generation Melburnians choose to support Greece on the soccer pitch, but fortunately they are becoming rare.

Similarly, we will grow out of the current preoccupation with Muslims being "the other", and simply get on with life.

I could easily be convinced that every generation, in every country, has its own "focus of fear". We just happen to live in an era and a country where Islam is the natural scapegoat.

Makes me wonder who will be next.

Will it be the Poms' turn again, I wonder?
Posted by Pericles, Monday, 7 June 2010 4:27:44 PM
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Indeed blame our recent leaders, but also blame the press who will not call them out on absurd statements.
Blame the shock jocks and other extremists who treat all facts as just someone's opinion, and who put rhetoric ahead of research.
Blame the lack of honest analysis, and the deliberate attempt to skew the arguments off center.
Blame opinion bought and paid for, and ignorant or cynical practitioners of propaganda.
Posted by Ozandy, Monday, 7 June 2010 4:35:25 PM
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Gee whiz!
Why would anyone fear the Islamisation of Australia?
Don't tell me they actually believe what the Koran says:

* Infidels are your sworn enemies (Sura 4:101).
* Be ruthless to the infidels (Sura 48:29).
* Make war on the infidels who dwell around you (Sura 9:123, 66:9).
* Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day (Sura 9:29).
* Strike off the heads of infidels in battle (Sura 47:4).
* If someone stops believing in Allah, kill him (al-Bukhari 9:84:57).
* Take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends (Sura 5:51, 60:13).
* Never be a helper to the disbelievers (Sura 28:86).
* Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (Sura 2:191).
* No Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel (al-Bukhari 1:3:111).
* The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land (Sura 5:33).

It's metaphorical, can't you see?
eg Infidels are your sworn enemies (Sura 4:101)
Everyone knows that Jesus said to love your enemies
and we now know that, according to Islam, Jesus was a Muslim.

Therefore when the Koran says:
* Be ruthless to the infidels (Sura 48:29).
It really means that Islam teaches us to love infidels.

You just have to learn to read between the lines.

In Islam it's called taqiyyah.
Posted by Proxy, Monday, 7 June 2010 4:45:47 PM
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mikk >> Only leadership who sets the example and practices non racist polices and fights against the injustice caused by racism and exclusion will reverse this hateful trend in society and allow all Australians to live more harmoniously and successfully.<<

I have the solution, blind us and pierce our eardrums. But then again we would probably start excluding each other by feel and smell...get my drift mikk.
Posted by sonofgloin, Monday, 7 June 2010 4:48:19 PM
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Irfun Yusuf, dont be disingenous please.
There is an elephant in the room (Australia) here. Dont worry. Most of us see it and know what it is. You say what you hear is whinging.This could turn to be a roar.

socratease
Posted by socratease, Monday, 7 June 2010 4:54:46 PM
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Or a whimper
Posted by David Jennings, Monday, 7 June 2010 4:58:38 PM
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Dear Irfy

you seem to live in a rather sheltered world mate.

//It was supposed to be temporary. But over seven years have gone by and we are still happily demonising those we deem to be different enough to be a threat to our collective cultural ego.//

Ya know...it might just.. jusssst be such things as 'They' bring it upon themselves...such as your mate Kayser wanting to open up the Polygamy thing?

Or.. the plan to exterminate as many ADF soldiers as possible b4 being martyred.

This might sound a bit errrr. 'racist' ? but.. those things don't exactly help the rest of us "non your mob" to speak with effusive sympathy.

Not to mention brother Ben Brika and his plans for the Grand final.

Seems that the 'racism' etc is on the other foot mate.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Monday, 7 June 2010 5:11:15 PM
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This country was built by settlers, predominantly Anglo-Celtic, who fought for it, bled for it and died for it.

Now it is being populated by groups who not only denigrate that history, but who openly seek to show their dislike of the fact that not only is it Australian to shoot Turks (what the phuck do you think we commemorate on the 25th of April?) and other foreigners, but seek to say it's "unAustralian". I'm sorry, I can ignore others foibles as well as the next man, but DO NOT PREACH TO ME ABOUT WHAT IS AUSTRALIAN

When your family has been here several generations, your opinion might count.
Posted by Custard, Monday, 7 June 2010 5:16:36 PM
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Pericles: >> Charles Dickens provides illumination into the same syndrome with his portrayal of Jews in Victorian London. They were similarly vilified - even by supposedly intelligent people - for their usurious ways and "pound of flesh" mentality. <<

Along the same theme I believe it was Shylock in The Merchant of Venice who demanded a "pound of flesh" as payment for a debt. It has been performed countless times and with each performance the stereo type is enforced. Shakespeare was not being anti Semitic, the money lenders of the time were dominantly Jews. The rich in Europe employed the Jews as go betweens for their money lending enterprises during the Middle Ages. The reason was that the church frowned on usury. The poor old Jew, a Shylock by others making.

I heard the primary age kids next door fighting and one called the other a Jew. When they were over next I asked them if the knew what a Jew is. A tight arse was the reply, I asked who taught them the word, and they said every body knows it.......primary age kids Pericles.
Posted by sonofgloin, Monday, 7 June 2010 5:29:00 PM
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I wonder if it could be because we have ethnic gangs roaming the streets, in some areas, bashing & robbing innocent passers by, while shouting things like "get the whitey".

I don't ever recall this kind of rubbish in the days of the "dago", & "wops". I lived in Fairfield, [Sydney] in the late 50s, & early 60s. My across fence neighbours were a pom, a Greek, & a Maltese.

Did the Maltese have a tag? I was very proud to shake his hand, after what they went through for being on our side during WW11.

This lot, & the Italian, & the middle european, [never did find out where he came from], from across the road used to help me push my racing car from time to time. Great people, one & all. They liked to claim the car as "their" racing car, & I was supposed to know what was wrong with their cars, when they played up.

Don't think it would be like that these days.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 7 June 2010 5:36:32 PM
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Sorry, that came out wrong - I've been preached at way too much this week

Irfan, why should this countries citizen's change to suit recent arrivals? Our families built this Country into what it is, determined its laws, fought, bled, sweated and died for it.

In doing so, we earned the right to do and say as we please.

When recent arrivals accomplish one tenth of what the earlier settlers did, then they have the right to dictate how things will be run, etc.

Try and push too hard too quick? You'll get resistance and after that, violent resistance to change. This "was" a conservative Country and most of it still is. Calling people who don't wish to "look" or "sound" like they come from the richer parts of Sydney or Melbourne, because they think they are pretentious w@nkers, bogans just because you disagree with them...

It won't wash

That is why a lot of recent immigrants (last 30 years) have never really proceeded out of the major centers, they know damn well they will not be accepted unless they are willing to adapt themselves, the people from where they go aren't going to adapt to make them feel at home if they don't.

Don't like it, go somewhere else... I like most of this Country just fine (everywhere outside the major centers). Or stay in Sydney/Melbourne.

By the way, I don't go around calling you a raghead, because you won't appreciate it, so why do you get to call anyone else anything?
Posted by Custard, Monday, 7 June 2010 5:36:57 PM
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Maybe this story is just another reason why we are wary of Islamic immigration:

The sale of undergarments with alleged pictures of a mosque on them sparked a riot by Muslims in Srinigar.
Turns out the images were actually of St Paul's and Big Ben.
Strangely enough, Christians didn't start rioting when the true story came out.
Go figure.
http://www.nationalturk.com/en/alleged-blasphemous-images-trigger-protests-in-kashmir-256254624

Hands up all Australians who encourage the immigration to Australia of people whose religion causes them to riot under the misapprehension that holy buildings are depicted on underpants.
I can see that Foxy and CJ Morgan quickly raised their hands.
Anybody else?
Posted by Proxy, Monday, 7 June 2010 5:42:18 PM
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Pericles:
"Charles Dickens provides illumination into the same syndrome with his portrayal of Jews in Victorian London. They were similarly vilified - even by supposedly intelligent people - for their usurious ways and "pound of flesh" mentality"
A nice segue from Victorian Dickens to Elizabethan Shakespeare--not that I suggest you weren't aware of the fact.

Not really on topic, but I wonder to what extent PC over anti-Semeticism censors 'just' criticism of Israel? The Jews seem to be doing their level best in offering a belligerent face against all criticism, as though it must be founded in prejudice, and they have their historical precedent to whitewash whatever measures they choose to take in the name of self-righteous "self-preservation"--more like revenge and rationalisation, I fear, for centuries of depredation and humiliation.
The 'just' fear behind boat people et al, nothing to do with justice, is the endless supply that threatens Australia's 'fortuitous' prosperity.
The Moslem countries have just the same axe to grind, as does Russia, China etc. The chickens always come home to roost.
For sure it is the 'big' 'Other' syndrome that drives Western fear. We haven't grown out of anything.
I say let them in, for no country is an island.
Posted by Squeers, Monday, 7 June 2010 5:58:04 PM
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thanks DJ
Pericles
I agree in the past with the wogs and dagoes and the reffoes of Cabramatta that the racism passed as did the problems caused by it but this is something different. This has the sinister poison of religion and terrorism injected into it. The stoking of the fires by Israel and the US. OIL.
As for the fear factor terrorist Islam and power hungry western leaders could not have been better made for each other and i doubt we will see any change of bogey man any time soon. They love each other too much.
Proxy
So what about all the similar type verses in the bible?
You know the ones. Dont make me quote them.
sonofgloin
Racism is not natural. The reason kids say jew like that and know such things is because of South Park.
Hasbeen
No in the 50s and 60s it was the anglo bodgies and widgies and rockers and mods and surfies who were the "gangs". Go back and search some of the papers from back then. Huge outcries over out of control drinking too. It never changes.
custard
Being a redneck is NOT Australian!
Posted by mikk, Monday, 7 June 2010 5:58:36 PM
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"That is why a lot of recent immigrants (last 30 years) have never really proceeded out of the major centers, they know damn well they will not be accepted unless they are willing to adapt themselves, the people from where they go aren't going to adapt to make them feel at home if they don't."

90% of Australia's population lives in the cities so the migrants are comfortably with the majority. Its great that the internet has opened up a new communication channel for country bogans but you shouldn't think that your version of Australia is the only one that there is in this country. Whether you like it or not, you, me, and everybody else in this country. That means that the migrants, the Muslims etc are our equals. So get over it and quit whingeing.

Oh ... and ANZAC day is overrated and the Turks actually won
Posted by David Jennings, Monday, 7 June 2010 6:05:26 PM
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Sniff sniff,

Gees, Hasbeen where did you grow up "never land"?
I remember gangs of rockers and surfies back in the sixties running amok in Surfers. each group had the ethnic bent then too.

As for ethnic gangs strewth they were about in the 1890/1900 ever read the Sentimental Bloke. In those days cut throat razors were
the go. Prod V the Micks was big in 1930s. There were the Spags V Aussies louts (bodgies and widgies) in the 50s , the 60's brought the Greeks V Sharpies V mods. 70's brought the Skin Heads V civilization ..... Get with reality mate.

All of these were prone to the crime and violence.

Most 'bogans' I've seen are more a mixture of races . It's more an attitude.
Posted by examinator, Monday, 7 June 2010 6:23:16 PM
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Irfan,
You are not very clear in this article about exactly what it is you are on about. You start off by talking about UK politics, then a former politicians proposed trip to the UK and then talk about a book by some journalist that apparently is about the UK. then you refer to some experience you had as a liberal candidate at a federal election.

Then near the end you make the following statement:-"It was supposed to be temporary. But over seven years have gone by and we are still happily demonising those we deem to be different enough to be a threat to our collective cultural ego".

So what is it you are on about? So far most posters seem to think you are talking about racism, yet I don't see any evidence of racism in you article, but note that you say at last. "But is this just the fault of Hanson and those who opportunistically use her reasoning to get elected or stay in power? Why has the politics of marginalisation been allowed to become and remain mainstream? Why don't we have a consistent thread of resistance to racism running in our political and popular culture?"

I think you need to further explain Irfan. Just who is demonising whom? Where is the politics of marginalisation being allowed? Where is the racism that needs to be resisted?

Oh and finally, what do you consider a bogan is, Please explain?
Posted by Banjo, Monday, 7 June 2010 8:15:08 PM
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Is it racist to tell it like it is?

"Religious Muslim boys more violent, study says"
http://www.thelocal.de/society/20100606-27673.html
The study, which involved intensive questioning of 45,000 teenagers from 61 towns and regions across (Germany), was conducted by Christian Pfeiffer of the criminal research institute of Lower Saxony.
Pfeiffer said he was dismayed by the results, and told the Süddeutsche Zeitung he was a strong critic of political campaigns which painted foreigners as criminals.
Posted by Proxy, Monday, 7 June 2010 8:51:22 PM
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Irfan's quite right, of course - and it's good to hear it from the horse's mouth. The Howard government shamelessly went after the bogan/redneck Hansonite vote, and got it. The Rudd government has been marginally better in that respect, but of course they need at least some of the bogans too.

It's good to see that our resident bogans and rednecks aren't dominating the discussion. Fortunately OLO also attracts some intelligent and humane people who display the kinds of values that bring people together, rather than those based on fear and loathing of those who are different to them.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Monday, 7 June 2010 9:09:40 PM
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CJ Morgan,
When authoritative surveys determine that Muslim males are more violent than non-Muslims and that "there is a significant correlation between (their) religiosity and readiness to use violence", normal people wonder about the wisdom of importing such attitudes into Australia.
Especially when the survey validates what we already understand to be true, based on observation of Islamic behaviour around the world.
I guess the facts don't count for holier-than-thou people such as yourself.
Apart from yourself however, who doesn't have "fear and loathing of those who(se)" religiosity is significantly correlated to their propensity to use violence?
Having said that, the poor bastards surveyed are only a product of their blighted religion,
which proclaims the eternal, immutable truths of Islam:
* Infidels are your sworn enemies (Sura 4:101).
* Be ruthless to the infidels (Sura 48:29).
* Make war on the infidels who dwell around you (Sura 9:123, 66:9).
* Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day (Sura 9:29).
* Strike off the heads of infidels in battle (Sura 47:4).
* If someone stops believing in Allah, kill him (al-Bukhari 9:84:57).
* Take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends (Sura 5:51, 60:13).
* Never be a helper to the disbelievers (Sura 28:86).
* Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (Sura 2:191).
* No Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel (al-Bukhari 1:3:111).
* The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land (Sura 5:33).
Posted by Proxy, Monday, 7 June 2010 10:02:35 PM
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Most of my posts were actually "sarcasm", it is the lowest form of wit (and therefore well above the intelligence quotient of many here).

FFS, here we have a whining migrant/2nd Gen (who cares) waffling on about why the Politicians should cater to whining bogans?

Cos they vote?

Sheeeshh, I am rarely glad that the National Party exists, but it may actually be the savior of what is actually "Australia", not some useless hodgepodge of mixed up losers... Go to Central Australia, or go to NW Qld...

You know what? I have never been so disgusted in all my days as I was when I heard about that guy being beaten to death with a bollard, while he was unconscious and on the ground in the middle of Sydney Airport...

How far has that part of the Country slipped? NOT ONE PERSON EVEN TRIED TO INTERVENE? Yeah, they had bollards, like there is some shortage of them in Sydney Airport?

A bunch of frightened little sheep and you wonder why the Politicians cater to what you call "bogans"? Because that is what Australia used to pretty much amount to, cultural cringe aside.

I'd love to see the difference if two groups into each other @ Mt Isa Airport. I know what would happen, the police would take them to the Showgrounds and let them sort it out one on one. How do I know that? Because it has happened...

Irfan, what you call a bogan probably bears no relation to the limited group I call bogans, let me guess, it pretty much encompasses all skippies, no? If so, there is your answer
Posted by Custard, Monday, 7 June 2010 10:17:13 PM
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The other problem is, I am now required under Political Correctness, to live with other people's issues, colors, shapes, etc. I can't say as I've been overly bothered one way or the other by it, you'd be suprised at the number of gays and lesbians in Aboriginal Communities (way away from Sydney), or the variety of people in Mt Isa... But I'd like to ask a question.

Where do you get off, attempting to describe a part of an ethnic group as someone politicians shouldn't listen to based upon some stereotypical set of characteristics?

Think about it... If I suggested Politicians should ignore all migrant groups, or SPECIFIC migrant groups, based upon some rigid stereotype, I'd be jumped on from an awfully great height, why do you, or should you, have a right I don't have?
Posted by Custard, Monday, 7 June 2010 10:28:52 PM
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It is all based on fear. Politicians with some exceptions play on that fear if there is a vote in it, despite the transparency in that deception.

Historically, even in monocultural societies there was discrimination or division usually on the basis of class. Since the growth of the middle class, globalisation, information dissemination and immigration, race has replaced class as the great divider.

It all amounts to fear of differences or the unknown, fear of failure and lack of will to take responsibility for one's own woes.

As mikk said it takes great leadership to strengthen bonds between cultural groups, only mediocrity to perpetuate it.
Posted by pelican, Monday, 7 June 2010 11:53:46 PM
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Pelican,
What is based on fear? Some posters have alluded to racism but no one has put forward any evidence of racism,

I read 3 major newspapers daily, sometimes more, and watch 2-3 TV news each night and I have not seen anything on racism. Unusually for Irfan, he waffles on about all sorts of things but does not state what his concerns are.

Of recent times it has been disclosed that the Vic police have been covering up bashings and anti-social behaviour by some Sudanese or Somarlia youths, so that could be what is being referred to. Or that there have been clashes between Sri Lankans in both Sydney and Melbourne, but that could not be called racist. Even the Croats and Serbs have not been active of late. Nothing about the Lebs either, or is that too common to bother reporting.

Some time back some Indian students were being bashed and robbed, which they claimed to be racist, but neither they or the police disclosed the ethnicity of the attackers. Everyone immediately thought the attackers were anglo-aussies, but it turned out otherwise.

If somebody thinks there is a problem, then first it has to be identified. Do not beat around the bush, state clearly what the problem is and where it is and who is doing it. Only then can we discuss the issue. I was hoping Irfan would explain further.
Posted by Banjo, Tuesday, 8 June 2010 6:18:17 AM
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Dear Pelly

you said:

//As mikk said it takes great leadership to strengthen bonds between cultural groups//

Do you think a bunch of KKK and "Black Panthers" could be wisely led by anyone ?

I'm using an extreme example here of course.

What about hard core Socialists and the Business Council of Australia ?
I spent about 20min on the phone to a Socialist in Melbourne yesterday just trying to fathom their ideas about climate change, Gore etc.. and while it was a congenial convo.. (non combative).. she kept on coming back to the evils of CAPitalism.. in fact she understood everything in the world.. even global warming :) (besides war, injustice etc) and attributed all evil to.. 'capitalism'.

She did concede that a manufacturer like me.. faces huge problems and dilemna's (labor costs etc)... but the answer was nothing other than a world socialist order.

Realistically.. it's difficult to bring the Passionate Arab Muslim and the Othodox Jew together for a happy convivial chin wag.
Or the Unionist and the Boss. Or people of diverse cultures 'when'...those cultures by their essential content include the vilification of the other one.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Tuesday, 8 June 2010 6:56:26 AM
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nationalism and patriotism are just great vote winners, but also work against tolerance of difference. So some young people will continue to have the southern cross tattooed on their body, while baby boomers will continue to walk the Kokoda track. The Australian community has changed.
Posted by Grant Musgrove, Tuesday, 8 June 2010 8:01:17 AM
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Gotta love yer logic Proxy.

>>CJ Morgan, When authoritative surveys determine that Muslim males are more violent than non-Muslims and that "there is a significant correlation between (their) religiosity and readiness to use violence", normal people wonder about the wisdom of importing such attitudes into Australia.<<

Statistically, men are ten times more likely to commit murder than women.

Should we perhaps also therefore question the wisdom of letting any men at all into the country?

What about the repatriation of all the men that are already here, would that be a really intelligent solution?

I wonder sometimes whether the people who resent the arrival of other nationalities and religions into this country are the same people who would like us to close our borders to international trade. Does a fear of immigrants go hand in hand, I wonder, with a fear that our country is being "taken over" by foreign businesses?

It is, after all, all about fear.
Posted by Pericles, Tuesday, 8 June 2010 8:52:44 AM
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Al
Ha ha, I would not call the KKK or the BP cultural groups - they are radical and politically motivated.

Calling for a strengthening of bonds between cultural groups is not the same thing as supporting ethnic differences that cause harm under our system of law - such as topics we have covered on OLO like FGM, terrorism, stoning, forced wearing of the burqua etc.

Banjo
I think Australians in the main are not racist and are inclusive of other cultures. But there is a tendency in the media to highlight the worst of social tensions such as the Cronulla riots and there was that journalist/camerman who tormented a Muslim citizen coming out of court with thinly veiled references to terrorists. It is no wonder the man's son reacted as he did. Put yourself in the shoes of a mainstream Muslim, who lives with the 'terrorism' label no matter their own exemplary behaviour as a citizen.

Most of us have been to countries where we are the minority and where there are racial/gender stereotypes. As a woman I would not go out in light clothing when in the Middle East, and would have to endure the vitriole of Muslim men who cast me in the role of evil temptress, undressed meat and tart all based on a stereotype of Western women.

I think we can do better than that.
Posted by pelican, Tuesday, 8 June 2010 9:29:08 AM
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Pericles
Are you talking about international trade or free trade, they are quite different. Trade has nothing to do with race or culture, but comes down to beliefs surrounding the sovereign rights of nations to decide the terms of trade with those whom they do business. Not play by the rules of another's vested interests where the playing fields and starting points are inequitable.

To confuse that with racial issues is to misunderstand the big picture.

Foreign ownership is a fact of life in Australia, but again, in terms of sovereignty, a nation should IMO have the right to set the terms of those economic arrangements.
Posted by pelican, Tuesday, 8 June 2010 9:41:33 AM
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In a fair world, if you called Pauline Hanson a whingeing bogan you might reasonable expect her to call you a whingeing blackfellow in reply. I dont think she would, but thats hypothetical. The result would be a mudslinging match that helps nobody.

I am sick of modern day bogeymen, "hoon" and "bogan" are examples. It would seem a bit silly to be all worked up about racism, but then exercise a similarly irrational prejudice against others.

I am a bogan, no question about it. I drive a great big V8 and listen to ACDC all the time, I even have a Metallica ring tone on my phone. I have a collection of black T-shirts and flanno's, and swear a lot. However, like most other bogans, I have no interest in politics. Not all bogans are living in the past and supporting yesterdays girl, the same way I imagine you might not like others generalising.
Posted by PatTheBogan, Tuesday, 8 June 2010 11:12:02 AM
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Well said Pat. Have never been sure what a bogan is. I think the term is overused implying someone who is less educated who disagrees with another's point of view. Some of the dumbest people I know are educated.
Posted by pelican, Tuesday, 8 June 2010 11:16:54 AM
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Just to lighten things up a bit - where I live the bush, I'm surrounded by bogans. At this time of year every second person of either gender I encounter is wearing ugg boots, a flanny shirt and a beanie. In warmer weather, it's thongs, Metallica t-shirts and baseball caps. There are plenty of southern cross tatts and Aussie flags attached to ridiculously fancy utes.

Many of these proud bogans are my customers, neighbours and acquaintances. Hell, I'm wearing a flanny and beanie now (but NO ugg boots... I do have some absolute standards). I can say with confidence that the vast majority of my bogan neighbours are quite decent people who, besides displaying appalling taste, all loved Pauline Hanson and all hate 'boat people'.

While my town polling booth always returns a slight ALP majority in both Federal and State elections, the wider electorate at both levels invariably returns the sitting LNP members with absolute majorities of over 60%. Mind you, the Green vote is steadily climbing out here - this year our perpetual candidate may even get the magic 4% and get his campaign costs back!

When it gets a bit much for my enlightened sensibilities, to console myself I sometimes visit the "Things Bogans Like" blog. It's often hilariously perceptive, and the comments are a riot:

http://thingsboganslike.wordpress.com/

Enjoy!
Posted by CJ Morgan, Tuesday, 8 June 2010 11:57:06 AM
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For pelican's benefit, a good definition of the 'bogan', from the abovementioned blog:

<< What is a Bogan Today?
An excellent question. It is time to bring to the world’s attention the means by which we can keep the world’s bogans happy. The word bogan has had a bad rap of late – still associated with wife beaters, flannelette, VB, utes and mullets. But this conceals the new, modern bogan. The bogan with money. The bogan with aspirations. The bogan with Ed Hardy t-shirts. And this is no mere Australian phenomenon – in the US, you have rednecks, in the UK, chavs. While there are variations, the crux of the discussion remains the same.

The bogan today defies income, class, race, creed, gender or religion. The bogan is defined by what it does, what it says and, most importantly, what it buys. Those who choose to deny the bogan on the basis of their North Shore home, their stockbroking career or their massive trust fund choose not to see the bogan. They merely see old class battles revisited. Likewise, the bogan is no mere ‘tradie’. Even if tradies remained low-income workers, many bogans are affluent. And they set themselves apart by their efforts to stand out by conforming as furiously, and conspicuously, as possible. >>
Posted by CJ Morgan, Tuesday, 8 June 2010 12:01:40 PM
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CJ

Thanks for link, have emailed to various friends.

A definitive definition of a bogan is difficult, due to their spread throughout race, culture and creed. For example, I see James Packer as a bogan. Many disagree with me pointing out the obvious (from wealthy family, private education) to the downright confusing (Scientology). However, much of his lifestyle serves as a role model to any aspiring bogans: casino mogul, all things sport such as horse racing, ex-alcoholic - at least he was a boozer, I don't think a tee-totaller from birth would ever qualify.

Another distinguishing feature of boganism, is "my way or the highway", which would mean that George W is a bogan - well a redneck in US parlance. And also includes Pauline Hanson with her "tolerance" of those who differ. Can't imagine her campaigning for racial inclusion.

Question: Can one be gay and bogan?
Posted by Severin, Tuesday, 8 June 2010 1:15:54 PM
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No, no, Severin dear heart, a thousand times no...

>>Question: Can one be gay and bogan?<<

You silly muddle-headed thing, you, listen to CJ...

>>...wearing ugg boots, a flanny shirt and a beanie. In warmer weather, it's thongs, Metallica t-shirts and baseball caps...<<

What were you thinking?
Posted by Pericles, Tuesday, 8 June 2010 2:34:40 PM
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Pericles

Tee Hee

I just love the idea of bogan gays. Do you recall a Australian movie called "The Sum of Us" starring Jack Thompson and Russell Crowe? Tell me that Rusty didn't play a bogan gay.

Eh?
Posted by Severin, Tuesday, 8 June 2010 2:52:11 PM
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Bogan is just the catch-all word that people who think themselves superior use to deride "the other".
You know the people I mean.
Progressive egalitarians like CJ et al.
Posted by Proxy, Tuesday, 8 June 2010 5:26:37 PM
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How do you know the whiners are catholic?

And bogans? p[roof? Evidence? Genralistion much. stereootype much?
The most racist Australians I have met were christian arabs.

Are they Catholic Bogans?

Bigoted rubbish.
Posted by TheMissus, Tuesday, 8 June 2010 7:07:02 PM
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TheMissus,
<<The most racist Australians I have met were christian arabs.>>
What makes you say that?
Are they somewhat resentful as a result of the 1400 years of persecution they have been suffering under Islamic hegemony in the Middle East?
...as detailed here:
http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/category/bulletin-of-christian-persecution/
and here:
http://c4rpme.org/christians.html
Posted by Proxy, Tuesday, 8 June 2010 7:23:54 PM
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<<Why don't we have a consistent thread of resistance to racism running in our political and popular culture?>>

Why don't we have a consistent thread of resistance to Islam running in our political and popular culture?

So-called racism does not represent the threat to Australia that Islam does.

So-called racism is a natural response to a vile ideology which advocates the death penalty for those who criticise it.
eg Yusuf Islam advocating the death penalty for Salman Rushdie.
http://islammonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3520:peace-train&catid=203&Itemid=59

So-called racism is a natural response to a vile ideology which advocates the death penalty for those who seek to leave its evil embrace.
* If someone stops believing in Allah, kill him (al-Bukhari 9:84:57).

Why don't we have a consistent thread of resistance to Islam running in our political and popular culture?
Posted by Proxy, Tuesday, 8 June 2010 9:45:31 PM
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As long as there are races, (difference’s) there will be racism! (personal arrogance) As for multi-culturist! It’s an idiot’s romantic notion and will never come to apparition. And why should it? Has anyone stopped and give heed as to why we have different races of people on planet Earth? I’m shore all the politically correct, feel good masturbators out there won’t be happy till we all become “bitstsa” (mongrels) Islam is a murderous religion and should not be tolerated by any country at all! I vote we send them back to the murderous shithole they came from! Let’s face it! If their Ala was so great ! they’d be living in prosperity in a loving peaceful land. Their so full of hypocrisy! It sickens me. You are what you do! The fact that we have ethnic communities with in our community proves we are all racists
Posted by Peterson, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 12:26:27 AM
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I wonder if everyone enjoyed the garbled and incoherent nonsense we got from Peterson, the "apparition" guy!LOL!!
Forum does get the oddscrewball who would do well to get some English lessons first before having a go here..
socratease
Posted by socratease, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 12:36:13 AM
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The biggest driver of racisim I see is caused by the non Australians themselves.

Back in the 50's and 60's, the chineese, italians and greeks came here for a better way of life and many prospered.

Nowdays, imigrants mostly come here because thier country is in ruin and, rather than be thankfull for the opportunity, they insist on taking advantage of our generosity but refuse to adopt our way of life.

We Australians can't walk in to a bank without removing our helmet, yet, muslim women don't have to remover thier headwear.

Both create the same problem, hide the face, yet only one is excussed. Why?

By all means come to Australia, but leave your baggage at the door.
Posted by rehctub, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 5:31:38 AM
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Irfan Says: “Pauline Hanson, an MP who made a name for herself whingeing about the privileges of the underprivileged and whingeing about Aborigines and immigrant”

It seems to me that one of the things that enabled Pauline Hanson to make a name for herself was her willingness to break with the political-correct mold/mould and expose the rort that “privileges” were all too often being awarded on the basis of ethnic identity, rather any means test. And this struck a chord with many at the coal face who saw it to be true (as opposed to those in ivory towers --or minarets like Irfan )---but I don’t expect any of the labor strategists, or fellow-travellers like Irfan to ‘fess up to this.

Still, it was worth the read just hear the reasoning of labor strategists: “Listen, I know how much you hate Pauline Hanson. You've got to understand that we have a deliberate strategy here. We want to destroy Hanson by sounding like her and attracting her voter base away from her. It's part of a deliberate strategy, and it's temporary. It was supposed to be temporary.”

I suspect the same strategists’ and same reasoning are behind Rudd’s current stand on Afghan & Sri Lankan … ILLEGALS --that is , he’s trying to sound tough ,trying to sound like the opposition to fool electors – but after the election he’ll revert to form –or was that lack of form
Posted by Horus, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 6:47:00 AM
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Horus: << Still, it was worth the read just hear the reasoning of labor strategists: “Listen, I know how much you hate Pauline Hanson. You've got to understand that we have a deliberate strategy here. We want to destroy Hanson by sounding like her and attracting her voter base away from her. It's part of a deliberate strategy, and it's temporary. It was supposed to be temporary.” >>

Too funny, Horus. Irfan was a candidate for the Liberal Party, not the ALP. That's why I said it was good to hear the Liberal strategy from the horse's mouth.

The Howard government went after the racist Hansonite vote and largely won it back from One Nation. The Libs have maintained the same execrable strategy ever since. Rudd is guilty of me-tooism with respect to asylum seekers, but his government has been slightly more humane than his predecessor's.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 8:17:42 AM
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Not as much as you might think, pelican.

>>Pericles Are you talking about international trade or free trade, they are quite different.<<

The nature of international trade depends very heavily on a country's commitment - or resistance - to free trade.

If we start to slap tariffs on imports, the next thing that will happen is that those countries who are affected by it will slap tariffs on our exports to them. Should we decide that our apple-growers need protection from imported apples from (say) China, the Chinese might decide to buy their wheat from Russia instead of from Western Australia. And so on.

Free trade is critical to the efficient running of international trade, which is a significant factor in keeping our cost of living under control.

I was simply surmising on likelihood of an Amazon-books-style relationship.

"I wonder sometimes whether the people who resent the arrival of other nationalities and religions into this country are the same people who would like us to close our borders to international trade."

Also phrased as: "people who buy into protectionist trade policies also buy... protectionist immigration policies."
Posted by Pericles, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 9:28:39 AM
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Yes Pericles but you more than implied a fear based mentality when there are many detractors of free trade among economists who believe any benefits of FT are limited to a small group and that some tweaking is required.

To associate that with a 'bogan' mentality is to me avoiding the essential arguments but it's a free world and no doubt you and I both will go on thinking the way we do for as long as we believe that stance to be correct.

I merely pointed out your error (as I see it) in likening racists and fear mongerers to the anti-free trade movement.
Posted by pelican, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 10:30:32 AM
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Irfan, I gave you the answer you seek quite some ways back... The Majority of migrants, and the majority of Australians (as was so helpfully pointed out to me) live in the Major Population Centers... But the fact remains, that while that allows them to dominate the Senate - THEY DO NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO DOMINATE THE LOWER HOUSE... Why? Because around about half (IIRC) of the Seats are based on rural/semi-rural/etc. electorates.

As for these bogans you disparage so much... The ones who work hard all day, piss their pay against the wall and have little time for whining migrants, political correctness, etc?

They ARE now being targeted by the Liberal/National Coalition, but they ARE the former BASE of the Labor Party. You see, the Labor Party was born of hard working men, Shearer's in fact, who decided to strike in the 1890's in North-West Qld. The strikes were put down violently by the Army (the Light Horse in fact - it is why they wear the Emu plume), but from that was born the Labor Party, which was wholely and solely for the WORKER, not the effete, snobbish, cliques that characterise most Labor Electoral Offices in major cities now...

That is why the Labor Party is going to have to split. The average Labor voter of this ilk, really couldn't care less if the Navy SANK the boat people, would prefer there was no migration whatever of whinging foreigners and are sick to death of being told what they can and cannot do in the spirit of political correctness. They are YOUR "bogans", to me, they are broken down into many groups...

Meatworkers(AMIEU), Forestry & Manufacturing(CFMEU), Electrical Tradespeople(ETU), Construction(now also CFMEU, but used to be the BLF) and the wharfies(AMU) to name a few... I don't think you'd like talking to them mate, they are classic Aussie's (ie. Your Bogans) for the most part.

The Unions need their own party, maybe it could work in coalition with the Labor Party, but they cannot stay married to it. It has been coopted by the snobbish, minority cliques.
Posted by Custard, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 11:53:34 AM
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Custard, I am definately a hoon, probably a racist, & have no problem with boat people, as long as they stay away from Oz. Hell, I'd probably be happy to let them in, if we only gave them a tent, & tucker for a few months, rather than keep them in better conditions than many old Ozies, but I'm not sure if that makes me a bogan.

What ever, can I apply for membership in your new party. It sounds to me like that is the sort of place I belong, or would like to, anyway.

I'm afraid it would be a small party, mate, not too many Ozies want to do real work these days.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 1:30:58 PM
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Irfan,
Getting on towards 48 hours since I asked you for further explaination, so it appears that you do not intend to contribute to this thread.

You implied racism without giving any evidence of racism taking place and the mob followed you all the way to 50 plus posts.

Not sure if that makes you a 'troll' or a 'dog whistler', well done!
Posted by Banjo, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 5:03:05 PM
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Re: CJ's "Too funny, Horus. Irfan was a candidate for the Liberal Party...yada yada yada

Weeell he certainly sounded very Laborite when I skim read it(early this morning before my coffee fix) --that's probably why they didnt invite him back!

To tell the truth CJ, I made that comment just to give you a break –it's no fun kicking your butt aaall the time –especially when everyone else is doing it too!

So, we'll mark that one down to you -one point -tick

Score up date:
CJ 1
Horus 101
Posted by Horus, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 7:18:51 PM
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I think we're in danger of romanticising the bogans, or at least letting them have a tug of themselves; they seem to be relishing their outlaw status, as though they had something lucid to say, or something better on offer. Let's not forget they're making a virtue of their ignorance and crude narcissisnm (I prefer refined narcissism). Boguns are bogus; there the most predictable of all conservatives (which is saying something) dressed up as radicals.
Posted by Squeers, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 7:47:25 PM
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"Why don't we have a consistent thread of resistance to racism running in our political and popular culture?" asks Irfan Yusuf.

The theme of his article is the anti-Islamic sentiments expressed by Pauline Hanson and her English "counter-part" Melanie Phillips.
He seeks to give an interfaith flavour to his story by belatedly comparing anti-Islamic sentiment to anti-Semitism and even anti-Catholicism, before accusing Catholics of being largely responsible for the marginalisation of "other groups", clearly meaning Muslims.

Most, if not all of his "argument" revolves around denigrating Pauline Hanson and, by extension, all the other "bogans" who agree with her.

As part of his attack against Pauline Hanson he mocks her for her comment that "there are Christian Muslims - there is no problems about that".
Yet Irfan Yusuf is continually harping on about racism against Muslims.
Who is the more reprehensible?
Pauline Hanson for mistakenly using the term Muslims when she should have said Arabs?
Or Irfan Yusuf for deliberately misrepresenting opposition to Islam as racism?

You can't have it both ways, Irfan Yusuf.
Is Islam a race, making Pauline Hanson right?
Or is Islam not a race, making you wrong?

I personally support the clear intent of Pauline Hanson's statement.
Arab Christians, you are more than welcome to come to Australia to escape
the 1400 years of persecution by Muslims in the Middle East.

Arab Muslims, if you believe in the Koran, which clearly exhorts all Muslims to
"kill the disbelievers wherever you find them"(Sura 2:191),
then please stay in the Middle East.

Does that make me a racist or merely anti-Islamic?
Posted by Proxy, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 8:56:05 PM
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What I am saying, in my own way, is that ones man's bogan is another man's union member, average wage earner, etc. It all depends upon where one sits in the social hierarchy, or where one sits geographically as well.

To a lot of recent migrants, everyone who is a skippie is a bogan to one degree or another...

To others, everyone in a menial job may fall into that category...

To most, those who listen to Loud Music, wear black and drive old Holdens or Fords which have a lot of grunt...

Still, others restrict the tag "bogan" to twits wearing mullets, tight jeans, thongs and flannies (where it quite deservedly belongs), down to the dole office, off to score then back home for a billy.

Personally, I fall into all of these groups (or have done) except the last. I have no qualms about that, nor any hangups about it. I like Metallica, I also like some Country, so what?

My point was, the people a LOT of people call bogans are the actual backbone of the Country. They don't earn the big money (except those on FIFO mine jobs), but without them the Country doesn't run (it'd be a whole lot of chiefs, no indians).

That is why their opinion counts, not as much as it should mind, but it still counts. They basically control a LOT of seats and always will (quite frankly, nobody else WANTS to live there, actually they don't WANT to live there either).

But when they control the electorate, they control the conduct of the Elected Representative. It really isn't that hard to understand.

Actually, the Pauline Hanson phenomenon is a direct result of the abandonment of the Labor-Party core, for some Loony-Left Ideal coupled with a Right-Wing that makes Howard look like a socialist.

The Labor Party has lost its way, it is trying to serve two masters, the ACTU and the University Educated, Right-Wing elite (NB most of the ACTU members are Uni educated too), who really think the unions are too pushy and demanding, but still want their votes.
Posted by Custard, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 10:13:32 PM
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Thanks for the link about bogans CJ.

I think I might be one sometimes at least in appearance - especially when out weeding the veggie patch in tracky dacks, boots and a daggy t-shirt.
:)
Posted by pelican, Thursday, 10 June 2010 9:31:31 AM
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Irfan asks: "Why don't we have a consistent thread of resistance to racism running in our political and popular culture?"

My answer would be that there is no overarching authority that we, as Australians, can defer to for guidance and which clearly denouces racism.

Muslims, as individuals and like anyone else, can succumb to sterotyping people based on race, ethnicity, religion and so forth.

However, from my experience, whenever there is a hint of such prejudice there has always been someone to remind them of their deen, way of life, and the words of the Prophet (may peace and blessing be upon him) when he said:

"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action."

In fact it happended the other day, in a Masjid that we were renovating, with someone of Arab parentage correcting an Aussie of Anglo-Celtic background (both Muslim). There was no enmity or argument because we all knew he had the authority of our Prophet to support him.

From my experience, the broader Australian community does not appear to have this sort of authority to fall back upon.

Or am i wrong? I would welcome constructive comments

Assalamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatu Irfan
Posted by grateful, Friday, 11 June 2010 10:32:52 AM
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