I have no strong views one way or the other about the Flag, but to criticise Ray Martin for being in the "anti-Flag lobby group" is a bit OTT. Ray Martin is not anti-Flag but pro-new Flag. There is a difference.

Was the program biased. Probably, I didn't see it but I imagine it might be given it was 60 Minutes and I can't see Ray Martin doing a story about keeping the Flag as it is. If the Flag goes to a referendum - we all have our own bias and can vote with our hearts on this one. What Ray Martin thinks will then be irrelevant.

While the Flag is an enduring symbol, times change. If we were to become a Republic, the Flag should ideally represent and recognise Australia's new independence and Head of State. There is no reason to believe we cannot recognise our English history just as the US did by retaining the colours and stars (although the stars represent the new States of the US and the Stripes those 13 colonies that repelled the British).

Other nations like South Africa and the US have made changes to their Flags. I believe Germany and Japan also made some changes.

Flags are not always used for high purposes and can even be damaging when used in extreme nationalistic campaigns such as Nazism, which does little for global cohesion.

The most offensive part of the Australian flag in this post-modern, post-Christian, post-rational era has to be the blatant reference to our Judaeo-Christian heritage, which some of us think we should jettison at all costs.
Three crosses!
St George, St Patrick & St Andrew.
No wonder it sticks in the craws of progressives.
We should also consider how offensive this must be to the adherents of other, more tolerant religions in our midst.
I suggest:
a green flag, which colour could be interpreted in whichever way the observer chooses,
the southern cross, which hopefully should offend as few people as possible (although it does seems somewhat southern-hemispherocentric)
with a sword, representing justice, to replace the Union Jack (which is very dead, white, anglo male).
We need to move with the winds of change, always hoping that we don't get shipwrecked.
http://theopinionator.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/05/recently-ben-sm.html

Pelican,why did you feel the need to put that last little paragraph in?
If you want to call people who have Australian or Southern Cross flags about their person Neo Nazis then cut to the chase and let the discussion flow from that point.
You support Flags and Nations but not Nationalism or Patriotism?
Why not just take a position?
If you don't support Nationalism or Patriotism you don't have to denigrate people who do to reinforce that view.
Furthermore if you're pro tolerance and pro multiculturalism then why do those ideas have to be hung on National Identity, it seems a tad askew to me.
Immigrants should come here and assimilate but not be urged to become Nationalists or Patriots, likewise people born here should be urged to assimilate the newcomers into an "Aussie" society in a non Patriotic and non Nationalistic way...even though most of the immigrants, from China are brought up to be highly Patriotic and Indians are steeped in Nationalistic propaganda from birth, so Civic Nationalism and Patriotism would be the path of least resistance.
Sounds silly when I put it like that doesn't it?

My preferences:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Anarchist_flags_and_stars.svg/300px-Anarchist_flags_and_stars.svg.png

I agree with Ray Martin that Australia's current flag is anachronistic and past its use-by date - particularly so since its recent appropriation by the xenophobic and racist minority, exemplified by Pauline Hanson and the Cronulla thugs.

However, I don't see much point in changing it until Australia becomes a truly independent nation by reconstituting itself as a republic. Of course, discussions about a new flag could be part of that process.

Current Affairs and Commercial Television are mutally exclusive.

Who cares about Ray Martins' view on our Flag.. I don't for one

I am all for becoming a republic and even abolishing the Federal State system for practical reasons, but I think we should keep the flag as it tells us where we originally came from. A sense of history is an important aspect of our growing maturity. It is a symbol of our struggle against oppression, where our form of government came from and our basis of common law and fairness. There are many countries that would love to have these attributes and our flag reminds us of this heritage.

CJ, Australia is past it's use by date, Pauline and these "Racist Thugs" (Whom everyone keeps talking about but can't seem to name outright) are as much a part of the Empire as the Leftists and Immigrants.
Banning Burqas and Calling Flag waving youths "Nazis" comes from the same mindset.

Mr. Pidgeon,

If anyone needs a flag, you are right in defending the current Australian one.

It well symbolizes the invasion of this continent by a European imperial Power, the near decimation of its natives, the unequal partition of their land and the formation of a Federation of States increasingly corrupt.

Long live the Flag!

Jay of Melbourne
I put the last paragraph in because the author mentioned the importance of symbolism. I wanted to add that while I understand the point, not all symbolism is for the better or for the good - which is why Germany banned the use of the swastika.

No matter our Flag, it is what we do as a nation that identifies us, terms like fighting for the Flag or fighting under the Flag can be used unwisely to justify illegal warfare and the like. Not all nationalistic pride stuff is good.

I am all for protecting Australia, defending Australia and protecting Australian industry, farmers and jobs including skilling up and sustainable populations. But I am also about doing what is right for other nations and not playing global patriarch deciding what is best for others and keeping all the spoils for ourselves.

Australia is not too bad on this stuff, go to the US and it might turn you off nationalistic pride completely. While there is a strong belief about the rights and freedoms of US citizens,there is a blinkered and biased view about the rights and freedoms of peoples of other nations. This type of red-neck nationalistic pride benefits the goals of corporate America to sustain wars and to influence matters for their own economic interests. Obama may change that to some extent - history will tell.

If we do become a Republic will the Flag still be relevant? Personally I don't have a strong view, the Flag might still represent part of our history. It depends - best way is to let the people decide.

My only worry is that the government will choose some horrid designer like they do for all of our international events and NYE celebrations.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'd like a flag that doesn't look like 40 or so other commonwealth nations and has the entire flag of an overseas country in the corner, but if I were asked to choose between that and either;
-Green and gold (ugly)
-A picture of the actual continent (like the new Kosovar flag)
-Boxing Kangaroo (over my dead body)
-Some awful whispy sketch (like the Olympics)
-Just the Australian flag sans Jack, and a sloppy detail in its place
-Just a bunch of vague bars (like every state in Europe)
Guess who will be sticking with the jack?

In short, like the republic- unless you get it right and give me a design i actually like, I am quite happy to kick it back to the drawing room till they get it right.

Otherwise, I don't see why this is such a big deal- it will most likely be put to referendum, and Ray Martin's vote is but one out of over 22 million others.

I was under the over optimistic impression that Ray Martin had retired, so felt no enthusiasm for his appearance, and even less for his inappropriate presentation, on Anzac Day.

Perhaps he might make this the last confused presentation, of his less than illustrious career.

Allan has given us an excellent summary of the present situation.

We have an excellent flag, decoratively and symbolically, and one wonders why people who wish to tamper with it cannot find some useful way in which to occupy themselves.

Who cares how the existing flag came to be the official one? Competition in a magazine or no, the important point is that it no longer does its job.

And what is that job? To symbolise our country as a proud independent nation. The current flag might have done that a hundred years ago, but it sure as hell doesn't now.

If we really do have to include some element which reminds us "where we've come from" (and I'm not sure how the Union Jack in the top corner reminds aborigines, or those of Greek or Italian or Chinese descent, and heaps of others, of "where they've come from), then perhaps include the traditional red white and blue. But including the entire flag of the former colonial power suggests continued dominance by that power, not origins.

The Canadians managed to get rid of the "where we've come from" handcuffs 40-plus years ago. Their flag's colours are entirely arbitrary, having no historical or symbolic or heraldic significance to Canada whatever. But can anyone seriously suggest their current flag doesn't do a great job for their nation?

Try this one: http://www.ausflag.com.au/reconciliation_flag.asp for an example of how to incorporate the traditional red white and blue, and merge it into aboriginal colours. Ticks all the boxes for me.

Pelican.
Obama's a manufactured product of the Empire, his job is to be Black, that's all. I can assure you that the people steering him from one teleprompter to the next have no interest in peace, human rights or even "minorities" for that matter,they want sovereignty over every living thing on the planet and stewardship of all natural resources, end of story.
As for the "rest of the world", worry about yourself first, they don't care about you or what you think.
Everyone who's taken the part of the "other", from Emma Goldman to Oprah Winfrey has ended up looking like a Dunce in the end.
Secure your own sovereignty, your own means of sustenance and your own liberty first.

Mr. Pidgeon,

No one other than a scoundrel needs a flag.

Asylum seekers who knock at our door are escaping the tyranny of scoundrels.

In the shadow of flags all sort of cruelties against humanity have been committed since times immemorial and continue to be committed under our own eyes.

The ones who follow a flag have to stun their moral sense first in order to commit the criminal acts required by the flag bearers; looting, raping, maiming, killing.

Flag bearers that once were Kings and now are Politicians.

Mr. Pidgeon, in the dilemma, caring for a Just Australia or favoring mischief, the choice is not difficult, and flags do not enter.

If humanity has any chance of prolonging its existence from this point on, flags have to disappear, and Democracy, World Democracy, has to be our ultimate aim.

As Carlo Levi seventy years ago in his book, ‘Christ stopped at Eboli’ said “we must act quickly and do things well because we die”.

"Secure your own sovereignty, your own means of sustenance and your own liberty first."

Yes, I agree but that can be achieved without exploitation of another's rights. In regards to the Flag, it is only one part of our identity and Australia has changed since the first Flag was flown.

If we were to become a Republic - a Flag change would fit in with that sovereignty