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The Forum > Article Comments > Age shall not weary them > Comments

Age shall not weary them : Comments

By Warwick Marsh, published 23/4/2010

Are we purchasing our own spiritual death on an instalment plan?

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A moving story Warwick.

"Whilst Anzac Day is a celebration of courage of men gone by, it also carries the hope that those men still exist today."

If you're hoping, you're dreaming. No one actually thinks the foppish, hair-gelled gameboy playing metrosexuals we see poncing around our cities are within coeee of the men who fought the Japanese. We could use them as decoys while country boys (and girls) did the fighting.

You have to respect your fellow man. You need to love your country. Bravery isn't blind rage. It's sticking it out when the going gets tough. Today's Biggest Loser doesn't care a fig for history and thinks Gallipoli is some sort of cocktail. Bravery for them is staying up until 4.00 am and going to work next day.

There's a caveat. Half the kids who are killed on our roads are bored brainless. They want to be crazy brave. Teach them discipline and respect for themselves and each other and you've got the bare makings of a soldier.
Posted by Cheryl, Friday, 23 April 2010 12:06:02 PM
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“Anzac Day gets its name from the Australian & New Zealand Army Corps, who fought in Gallipoli, Turkey in April 1915”, so it was more than strange that an old Digger was heard on radio saying how nice it was to have (in Australia), Turks, French, Germans and even Somalis march in the parades. We all know what ANZAC stands for, so why do we have non-Anzacs, even ex - enemies, marching in the Anzac marches? We also have Australians, who spent some time in uniform, but who never fought or went overseas marching and being accepted for RSL membership although they are not RETURNED soldiers.

Of course there are not many of the real Anzacs left; it is right and proper for returned soldiers of WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan (although the latter two are iffy: they are fighting for politicians, not our defence).But extending fraternity to people who neve fired a shot in anger, and even to people who fired a few at Australians troops, seems to indicate that the whole thing is getting a bit threadbare.

Now, before I’m accused of being like those anti-everything Australians I intensely dislike, I deeply respect and appreciate those who fought and died in both world wars, and in Korea. I am profoundly sorry for those men who were sent to Vietnam, which was never our war, particularly those who were conscripted. I have a normal respect for our current ADF, but they are being used for political purposes in places where they simply should not be.

Anzac Day is surely something that is meant to fizzle out as the world stops fighting major wars as a way to settling differences. Instead, it has been beaten up to be more of an Australia Day than Australia Day itself. While I do not believe for one minute that Anzac Day glorifies war, I can fully understand why some people do believe that it does, and that war is an important part of Australian psyche.

......
Posted by Leigh, Friday, 23 April 2010 12:26:49 PM
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......

I believe that this situation arises out of the fact that government after government in Australia has been hell bent on globalisation, multiculturalism, bowing to overseas interests and generally degrading Australian culture, that Anzac has been misguidedly used as a and expression of Australian pride. It still touches so many Australians, through actual involvement or through family ties, that people including the young, have seized on it as something uniquely Australian because Australian governments have taken much of the pride of being Australian away from them.

The author seems to have watched “Kokoda” last night as I did. The point is that most of the brunt of Kokoda was born not by professionals, but conscripted troops and volunteers. They, along with the AIF, when it was eventually seen fit to send them in to help the amateurs, were severely handicapped by incompetent commanders back in Australia who knew nothing of what the troops were suffering. Blamey even lied to Curtin that everything was going smoothly. It took an American, McArthur to reveal what dire straits Australians were in.

I agree with the author that we should be ever vigilant (which we are not, now) but with well-paid and well equipped professional troops. I have no objection to honouring conscripts and volunteers on Anzac day while they are still alive; but when they are gone, so should Anzac Day go. We are not militarists as a nation; and I hope that we are not the sort of people who approve of artificially and wrongly padding the ranks of marchers with people who are not true Anzacs.

As an aside, I have always been under the impression that it was the Kokoda TRAIL that so many Australians bravely fought on; not the Kododa TRACK, even though track is more Australian than trail. I also believe that the arch over the beginning of the climb says Kokoda Trail. Any comments?
Posted by Leigh, Friday, 23 April 2010 12:27:56 PM
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Future wars will be very different from WWI and WWII, the same atrocities of using men as cannon fodder or trench warfare is being replaced with remote warfare, drones and advanced satellite and other communications. Not to mention the nuclear deterrent.

Like Leigh I hope we never have to confront another war and that these high tech deterrents will work in keeping global warfare at bay. There will always be civil war and other skirmishes as tensions in various nations rise.

Even if ANZAC Day were to cease, I believe men and women who put their lives at risk should be honoured for the sacrifice they make not only the potential loss of life but for the time they spend away from their families to do the jobs they do.

Most importantly and where many governments have failed is in the after-care of veterans who have made that sacrifice to serve their countries.

ANZAC Day is a spiritual day for many who remember the war dead and who honour those who fight in today's defence forces. I believe as Leigh said we will evolve away from using warfare to negotiate with other nations except in rare circumstances.

As for today's young, I think they might surprise you should they have to serve their country in the same way. People, including young folk, when faced with threat or a disaster have shown they can pull together during the tough times and can be very generous of spirit.
Posted by pelican, Friday, 23 April 2010 2:55:56 PM
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Very amusing Cheryl. I don't even know where to start with that bunch of generalisations and stereotypes.

A agree with pelican's last paragraph. I also think that kids are a lot more worldly and have access to a lot more information than the 17 year olds that were conned into fighting the Japanese at Kokoda.
Posted by Houellebecq, Friday, 23 April 2010 4:29:13 PM
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You make me laugh every time I read your posts Cheryl and I've missed you the past few weeks. You must have been busy in your business hope everything's okay with you.

Agree with you post and btw many kids are bored today!
Posted by we are unique, Friday, 23 April 2010 11:43:13 PM
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Three or six months of basic training would make the world of difference to our younger generation. It should be mandatory for everyone.
Posted by Desmond, Saturday, 24 April 2010 8:29:03 AM
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In view of last nights poll by 9nsm, asking "would you fight to defend Oz", where 33& of respondents, are not prepared to fight for oz, I not so sure of our ability to defend ourselves today.

Of course one has to wonder how much this has to say about the state of our youth, & how much it has to say about the make up of our immigration policy.

Probably the latter has more to do with this deplorable result.
Posted by Hasbeen, Saturday, 24 April 2010 10:54:18 AM
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Hasbeen
I wouldn't take too much from those kinds of simplistic polls.

There is a difference between joining up to fight an invading force and fighting what some might think is an illegal war (Iraq). Without knowing what was on the minds of those polled we cannot take this poll as indicative of anything it might say about youth.

The poll also did not mention the age of the participants. What if most of those who said no were over 40?
Posted by pelican, Saturday, 24 April 2010 11:47:02 AM
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Well done, Warwick, in your call to remember. The stories of Harry Honner’s 39th Battalion, Kingsbury VC and Metson BEM deserve to be told … often. And ANZAC day is the time for the telling these stories of valour.

I lost my father in the war against Japan in 1943 when I was eight years old. Five uncles and an aunt were also serving in uniform so it was not an easy time for the extended family. Nonetheless, I went on to become a professional soldier and served for 40 years. On ANZAC Day, I will remember my dad ... and my mother who raised four boys single handed and kept the image of her darling husband before us as a model father. I remember those who died in my unit during the Malayan Emergency in 1957 and the seven members of my company who died in Vietnam in 1968 and even those whom I do not know who have died in war and even now serve our country in far-off places like Afghanistan.

This year, I will be especially remembering the 48 North Vietnamese soldiers who died in an attack on our position in May 1968 ... and the current efforts of one of my former comrades who has devoted his retirement to recovering the remains of those one-time enemies so that their families may achieve some closure.

I will pray for them all tomorrow at the National ANZAC Day Mass in Canberra and afterwards at the Australian War Memorial because they deserve to be remembered and because Christians are enjoined to do so in the Bible story, Maccabees 2.

Not all Australians will have such a personal attachment to ANZAC Day but most will have the grace to see that we owe it to the memory of our War Dead to support the ANZAC Day tradition. Australia will be a better place for it.
Posted by P R Phillipss, Saturday, 24 April 2010 3:36:57 PM
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I think we need to pay more attention to the veterans of more recent conflicts too. Yesterday I drove past a local RSL, which had the dates 1914-1918 and 1939-1945 prominently displayed. I'd like them to add all the subsequent dates - Malaya, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and to acknowledge peacekeeping and UN roles.

While on the general topic of ANZAC commemoration, I have to say how totally opposed I am to medals being worn by anyone other than the person to whom they were awarded. My father has a swag of medals from WWII etc, and none of his children or grandchildren would ever dream of wearing them - and he wouldn't would allow it. Seeing little children parading around in medals with no idea what they actually represent is one reason I avoid Anzac Parades, I'm afraid. You just can't transfer the acknowledgment of service and sacrifice like that.
Posted by Candide, Saturday, 24 April 2010 6:24:51 PM
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Candide: I agree with what you say about giving proper acknowledgment to those who served in other conflicts.

Not so sure about the medals - I can't say I've seen littlies wearing any but like you I would find it off putting. Disrespectful really. However I have seen older people wearing others' medals and often thought how nice it was that they remained proud of the soldier in their family.

My grandfather was in the Light horse; my father was an American Marine; my uncle in the Air force; spouse was Army; I have a son and daughter each in military service.

I would also like to see greater recognition of past and present contributions by women; by locals (like the New Guinea locals who helped our blokes) and other civilians, voluntary groups and the millions of civilians who bravely faced oncoming slaughter without weapons or any real means to defend themselves. At least as many civilians as soldiers died - many beyond anyone's recollection now. Courage and noble sacrifice comes in many forms of human endeavour - there are so many great stories of human nobility yet to be told.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

Sister Narrelle Hobbs was with Australian forces at Gallipoli. She wrote:

"I’ve been a soldier now for nearly three years, and please God I will go right to the end ... if anything happened, and I too passed out, well, there would be no finer way, and no way in which I would be happier, than to lay down one’s life for the men who have given everything."

She died five months later, in May 1918.

http://www.acn.net.au/articles/womeninaction/
Posted by Pynchme, Saturday, 24 April 2010 11:14:07 PM
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Online petition to help an elderly Digger get a lousy $25,000 compensation for which he has been fighting. His claim was turned down because payments are for POW and he escaped.

If you'd like to support his cause, here is a link to the petition:

http://www.petition.fm/petitions/helpfred/

They need 20,000 signatures.
Posted by Pynchme, Sunday, 25 April 2010 1:16:40 PM
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I have never been a fan of Warwick Marsh, but I did like some of this article.
I agree with Pynchme that we should pay homage to all our ancestors, friends and relatives who contributed to all the war efforts, and those who continue to do so today.

I have read many accounts of all the female and male medical personnel who served in the wars, and I think they are all just as much heroes as the fighting men and women.

Warwick seems to think the young men of today are not as macho as the men (and women, which he didn't mention of course) who fought in the World Wars I and II. That is a load of crock.

Some young men and women of today already go to war- such as in Afganistan. Aren't these young soldiers all descendants of the old soldiers in one way or another?

I have no doubt at all that in the event of any new wars, our young women and men would face up to the challenge as well as any before them.
Posted by suzeonline, Sunday, 25 April 2010 10:09:39 PM
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Agree with you Suze. My kids are highly patriotic of Australia, their ancestory, and proud of friends in the defence forces.

This week I showed my daughter extra family tree info on her father's previously traced 7th generation side, which includes her great grandfather as a fighter pilot. Then I showed her information about my uncle I'd never met who fought at 19yrs in Gallipoli, Tobruk and a little town outside Tobruk, dying in his third major battle. Dad was born years later and did not know this brother first born.

I then scanned names of all the people who were his cobbers in his batallion. The surnames incredible. Some Riverina peoples surnames I had known, people from my own communities where I was raised [although do not live there now].

I also read extracts regarding his batallion's defence of another country's people. To risk and have your life taken defending Australia and another country's people is precious and rare, particularly as a teenager.
Posted by we are unique, Sunday, 25 April 2010 11:26:14 PM
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GG Quentin Bryce: " never let go of Anzac Day ". Over 7000 NZ and Ozzies attended the Gallipoli ceremony at Anzac Cove. In the same breath Melbourne youths desecrated a cenotaph. In the ACT, youths dumped rubbish, defecated, and paint graffiti in a memorial. In Brisbane, youths try to douse the ' eternal flame ' by peeing, then fornicating at that holy shibboleth, they call the Shrine of Remembrance. It goes on-and-on, but the tabloids are told to kill the stories.

The inexorable maudlin rubbish that is generated by people like Warwick Marsh, to perpetuate the Anzac Legend is just so typical of writers with vivid imaginations. It was Charles Bean who coined the word " ANZAC " to personify the spirit of the two Countries at Gallipoli. They fought separate campaigns. No other Country celebrates the gruesome disaster, even though 7 other Countries participated.Moreover, our casualties were less then 40 % of United Kingdom's. Less then France, and India. In total 392,500 lives were lost or wounded. What a tragedy and waste of Human resources.

Marsh exemplifies Kokoda as Aust defining point in History, after Gallipoli. He eulogizes the bravery and heroism of those veterans who faced a numerically, battle-hardened, better trained military force under General Horii. It wasn't the Allies who defeated the Japanese in New Guinea, but orders from Japan to reinforce the losing battle at Guardacanal, which was under siege by the US. Within 10 miles of Port Moresby, they abandoned the fight on orders for a tactical withdrawal - to be picked up at a later stage by a Jap Naval squadron.

The Kokoda campaign lasted five months, from July to October. Wikipedia records 624 died, 1600 wounded and 4000 from sickness. MALARIA, TROPICAL DISEASES, GANGRENE, DYSENTERY, FATIGUE etc, was the main culprits..The Medical Corps performed a sterling service under very trying circumstances. Quinine was readily available, but between the Officers and men was neglected and ignored, at their peril.

The Operation from the start was a catastrophe. MacArthur, Blamey, Curtin etc had little idea of the savage terrain and Tropical jungle, the
cont..
Posted by jacinta, Monday, 26 April 2010 2:24:04 PM
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untrained and un acclimatized troops had to endure. Among other deficiencies, maps, guides, intelligence, food, munitions supplies etc and the fact none of the Officers or diggers had any jungle experience, was conducive to their " cock up " - is indicative of the chaotic and disorganisation, preceding the War.

In short time five senior Commanding Officers were replaced. The troops were in disarray. Aust General Blamey was ordered to " energise the situation ", and he did. MacArthur complained to his boss Marshall: " the A have proven themselves unable to match the enemy in jungle fighting ". Quixotically, the Americans had broken the Japanese Code, and " magic " deciphered all Horii's military plans. Plainly, he knew in advance what the enemy was plotting. Still, he persisted, knowing full well the Allies could have by-passed New Guinea completely. He did precisely that, much later on. !

Blamey addressing the troops: " remember it is the rabbit who runs away, who gets shot, not the man holding the gun ".

Civilians, journalist, historians, Academics etc today cannot differentiate between FOLKLORE and History. Every year, the Library's are inundated with newetr publications purporting to be an actual account of our past. They glamorize War. Make Hero's on exaggerations, built from diaries,battalion histories, and fanciful adventurers seeking fame and fortune. We have produced more Phd's in History, then any country Worldwide. Every issue is jam-packed with bibliographic references, taken from other publications, and so the drama unfolds. Paid to write, these fable-mongers embellish folklore with their own brand of chicanery to make gallantry, heroism, masculinity and hero-worship something for children to aspire to ? A lie takes on gargantuan proportions to what end ? Do we feel any better, to know the truth ? rather than dream in rhapsody at our sanitised past?

BTW, Blamey was amply rewarded by PM Curtin with a Field Marshall's baton. No one in Aust Military has ever received that honour since.

Who's the rabbit ?
Posted by jacinta, Monday, 26 April 2010 3:04:34 PM
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jacinta: All very interesting and probably factually accurate. However, it is so much easier from the advantage of retrospect to weigh it all up and decide that the people who fought in the past were a bunch of asshats; that the reasons they fought were misguided or the product of evil misdirection; that war is horrible (fully agree with you there.)

It seems to me that more distant we become from the conflict the harder and less empathic our assessment. There is a need in historical practice - an ethical duty even - to try to understand people and their actions in their own space and time. We might well decide not to repeat what (with the benefit of additional knowledge after the fact) we determine to be errors of judgment; but that doesn't remove the felt experience of those people who lived through the terror of their day.

For example, is there any argument that the Japanese were on a campaign to dominate the Pacific rim? Should everyone have just stood by while Hitler did his thing ? Of course the Versailles Treaty, in retrospect, contributed. Whether or not that was recognizable at the time, should every one have just rolled over for Hitler? Poor little Czechoslovakia didn't think so when it was handed over to appease the aggressor.

Did any of that matter to Anne Frank? The disabled, homosexuals and others sent to camps, or the soldiers who fought their way forward towards and were present at the liberation of people in the camps ?

I think we can learn from the type of analysis that you're presenting; but at the same time I think we can appreciate that those awful, screwed up events also provided the context in which individuals outdid themselves in putting the survival of others before their own.

That's what ANZAC day celebrates - not victory - but generosity and nobility in self sacrifice. The ANZACS died for their belief in the possibility of a better, safer world for everyone that was to come after them.
Posted by Pynchme, Monday, 26 April 2010 6:23:28 PM
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