JP << Why bother Spindoc? What does it really matter what people believe? >>

True, it shouldn’t matter what people believe and it doesn’t to me, but that misses the most significant point. Which is why should those who do not subscribe to one of the 34,000 man made religions, be abused, labeled, vilified or marginalized for not believing? Why should my children and grandchildren be taught the many religious values to which we do not subscribe.

I really do not care what people believe in, pixies, fairies, aliens or divine, personified, interventionist Gods. I care about the damage done to society over the past thousand years and I do care about the potential escalation of conflict through growing fundamentalism between faiths and between believers and non believers, and I do care about the emotional damage done to members of our societies.

JP, I regularly get visits to my home from local “religious folk”, I don’t need to tell you which ones. I’m always polite, I offer a glass of water and I invite them in from the rain or the heat. I always accept their brochures and listen to their pitch. Last week two lovely young women, maybe mid to late 20’s, paid a visit. Like their entire fellow congregation, they couldn’t even answer basic questions, gently put, about their own faith. They were so “sheltered” from the real world yet they were bright eyed, open and enthusiastic.

It occurred to me, how might I feel if my similar aged daughter was this vulnerable and naïve? To our family it would be a tragedy, as a father I would feel I had failed her terribly. I admit I became angry afterwards as I focused on the person(s) who had deprived these two young women of the ability to relate to those outside their closed loop.

So, on the one hand I don’t care about their beliefs, on the other hand I feel so desperately sad for the closed minds and wasted opportunities imposed by their faith

JP: << Why do you, or Richard Dawkins for that matter, care what I or anyone else believes? >>

Given some of the paranoid posts about the Atheist Convention from the exclusively Christian religious types here, I think the relevant question is why do they care what I or any other atheist doesn't believe?

What organized religious groups believe matters because of their actions. We see lethal, destructive and criminal behaviour by religious fundamentalists in many parts of the world and terrorist conspiracies here in Australia.

We also see that PM Rudd promised the Australian Christian Lobby that his government would not legislate for same-sex marriage. He is sticking to his promise because the ALP apparently believes that the ACL delivers the crucial votes in marginal suburban electorates. Thus, committed same-sex couples are denied equal rights as citizens, even though more than 60% of Australians support equal marriage. Civil unions do not exist across the country and are not universally understood the way marriage is. This opens the way for discrimination against same-sex couples in situations such as hospital visiting rights, medical decisions and funeral arrangements. The condemnation of same-sex relationships by some religious leaders encourages gay bashers.

Spindoc, CJ Morgan, tonyf - You all feel free to criticise other people, but what makes your values superior to theirs? Against what standard are you measuring their values?

If your standard is just your own subject made up value system on what basis can you say that it is any better than the value system which you believe they have made up?

It is possible to be able to call Christians hypocrites because Christians claim that there are objective moral standards and if they fail to try to live by those standards then they are rightly called hypocrites.

However it does not make much sense to call atheists hypocrites. That is because if an atheist professes to hold certain moral values but then breaches those values, the atheist can always change their professed values to fall in line with their behaviour. They have no external values by which they have to abide.

An atheist can do whatever they like, or at least whatever they can get away with.

How does the "rape in the Congo" fit in with the 800,000 butchered in Rwanda, where the killing was not only condoned by various Catholic priests and nuns but where some of them actively participated?

Morality is not exclusive to religious belief but exists in spite of it.

JP - you still don't get it, do you? We support atheism because atheists are nicer to be with than believers. My life is better because at least some of the people in power are making decisions based on reason rather than their interpretation of what their Sky Fairy wants. The life of people I care about around the world is better because they don't have to go in fear of attacks from rival religious cults. The life of people in Arab countries is better when they can kiss in public without running the risk of going to jail. Atheism makes life better in so many ways; it's a simple and obvious way of improving the world. Why would we want to improve the world? To make it a happier place to be for ourselves and our loved ones. And what better reason can there possibly be to do anything?

Applying atheist values makes people happier. Except people like you, of course. End of story.