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The Forum > Article Comments > The French burqa ban: culture clash unveiled > Comments

The French burqa ban: culture clash unveiled : Comments

By Sadanand Dhume, published 11/2/2010

The burqa is a political garment: radical Islamists everywhere make male morality the responsibility of women.

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In this long article many comments come to mind. However, the time to address them is more than I can muster at the moment
Suffice to say that it is pleasing to see the number of articles on any Islamic subject being aired and may they continue. They need to be debated, daily.
One in Melbourne yesterday from a member of the federal opposition; a detailed article in The Australian yesterday, one of the best ever written on the 'thought police'. So the more the merrier.
The threat that a burgeoning Muslim population in this country represents to most people in varying degrees, is a subject that should be aired with the hope that even the cricketing fans and other sporting affectionados may switch off the TV for long enough to realise that we are not isolated in Australia from the same social problems that are now being experienced in Europe, never to be repeated here, hopefully.
So keep the comment and articles coming; learn something every day on the activities that will impact not your lives particularly, but the lives of your children and grandchildren.
Right now our disappointing politicians are discussing immigration and probably considering only half of the important matters needing detailed analysis for the future of our country. Stay awake and listen, read and comment. No better way than through these pages.
One final comment, relevant to the article. If, as suggested by the writer, banning the burqa means that France may now experience terrorist bombings, a trade mark of Islam, then surely this confirms the aggressive nature of the ideology.
Posted by rexw, Thursday, 11 February 2010 10:13:46 AM
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There is also a funny side to it:

"Ambassador calls for divorce after veil-wearing Muslim bride reveals a beard and crossed eyes

An Arab ambassador called for an instant divorce after discovering his veil-wearing fiancée had a beard and was cross-eyed, it emerged today.

The would-be bride had hidden her face behind a Muslim niqab throughout their short courtship, meaning the diplomat had no idea what she looked like.

But as soon as the marriage was contract was signed in Dubai, in the United Arab Emirates, he tried to kiss her, before coming face-to-face with her hairy face and strange squint.

‘He was absolutely horrified,’ said a wedding guest.

‘The bride had a nice personality, but there was a good reason why she was hiding her looks behind a veil.

‘A divorce was inevitable, and the groom went straight to court leaving his new bride in floods of tears.’"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1249922/Ambassador-calls-divorce-veil-wearing-bride-reveals-beard-crossed-eyes.html#ixzz0fBd0f3N6
Posted by Cornflower, Thursday, 11 February 2010 11:39:23 AM
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I do not know to what extent the burqa has been a political symbol in France up till now. But a ban is guaranteed to turn it into one.

What pray is the French State going to do if a few hundred burqa clad women, some carrying babies, take it into their heads to advance on the Gare du Nord?

--Release a truncheon wielding gendarmerie on them?

--Teargas them?

--Disperse them with rubber bullets?

Gimme a break
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Thursday, 11 February 2010 11:46:42 AM
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I agree with your article Sadanand, it raises some very good points- and personally I think the discouragement to shariah advocates is also a good justification for a ban.

But I think the most important thing to consider is that a staunchly secularist nation has every right to demand their citizens remove religiously-motivated headgear it finds unethical or obscene: just as much as a devoutly religious (in this case Islamic) country deserves the right to insist everyone cover up to the degree it considers modest and proper, when out in public.

It's no different from a standard of not being allowed to wear a ski mask (except when skiing), yet are, at all times outside, required to wear pants.
Posted by King Hazza, Thursday, 11 February 2010 8:46:15 PM
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I am inclined to agree with the French on this matter.
The Muslim women can wear a Chador or Khimar (headscarves) that show they are modest, Muslim women, as required by the Koran, without having to wear a full face veil like the Burqa.

In fact, it is not written anywhere in the Koran that women must wear the Burqa. It does state that both male and female Muslims must wear modest dress at all times.

It is only a stipulation of fundamentalist Islamists to force women to wear the Burqa. However, many Muslim men wear westernised clothing out in public, while their women still wear coverings over their clothes while in public.

I see it as a woman's right to wear what she likes, but it is a human quality to show one's expression on the face or in the eyes. To deny this is to deny those women the full participation in their surrounding environment and with their fellow humans of all religions.
Posted by suzeonline, Thursday, 11 February 2010 10:37:04 PM
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I think France has got it right , I find that type of dress aggressive , ugly and promoting insecurity for others .These people need to return to the Wonders and Beauty and terrific Extremes of the Middle East , it's a blast man !
Posted by ShazBaz001, Sunday, 14 February 2010 5:30:12 PM
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But it's not just the burqa that is banned in public places in France, but the hijab as well, the head-scarf, in schools. Of course, such covering-up is oppressive, designed to soothe men, and so on. But if women cannot wear the burqa or jilbab (face-veil) in public, what might be a very real consequence ? That the women are shut up indoors (purdah) and even more reliant on the oppression of their men.

To be able to go out wearing a hijab or jilbab or burqa at least allows women to become familiar with what is going on out in the streets and to meet other people. Yes, it's still oppressive, but some of the arguments against seem to go to the other extreme - that seeing women in hijabs or jilbabs (only 2 % of Muslim women in France wear the burqa) is offensive to Europeans - so the poor bl00dy women can't win either way.

This is a struggle that only Muslim women can resolve, with sympathy and support, and it doesn't help if they are barred from the streets on the spurious grounds of what they are wearing: Bulky clothing can hide bombs ? Then ban overcoats. Head-to-toe covering ? Then ban nuns. Can't see their eyes ? Then ban sun-glasses.

What next ? That they talk funny ? We (the dominants) can't understand them ? Get a life, and let Muslim women live theirs without any more oppression.
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 14 February 2010 10:06:53 PM
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Telling women what they can/cannot wear is sexist.

Telling women what they can/cannot wear to 'protect' them from sexism is still sexism.

If people weren't so preoccupied with how muslim women look they might discover that many non-muslim women, simply because they don't adorn a burqa, are far from emancipated.

"what is threatening about a Muslim scarf (or hijab) in the eyes of those who do find it threatening is not that it is an expression of a religious, rather than a secular, culture. It is primarily that the hijab represents a woman who is wilfully subjecting herself to a law other than the law of the nation, another patriarchal order. It is this that those who are trying to find a sense of security in their national space cannot tolerate. For them, the rule is always one nation, one patriarchal law. The laws and the patriarchy of the ‘other’ have no place in ‘my’ national space." - Ghassan Hage
Posted by strayan, Sunday, 14 February 2010 10:31:30 PM
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Interesting article. Although I personally find the burqa a ridiculous garment, I think that heavy-handed legislative approaches like banning its wearing in public places are likely to have more negative than positive effects on French society.

For once, I agree with stevenlmeyer - while it's debatable that the burqa is currently a political symbol, banning it will certainly make it so. I also agree with Lodmouth and strayan - if the ostensible reason for banning the burqa is to emancipate repressed Muslim women it is very likely to backfire. The short-term effect of such legislation will be further restrictions on the freedom of on those women who currently wear the burqa, while at a broader level the focus on what a handful of Muslim women wear serves to deflect attention from less obvious patriarchal structures in society.

The quote from anthropologist Ghassan Hage is spot-on.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Monday, 15 February 2010 7:48:48 AM
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Good on the frogs for such a law. You can't go into a bank with a bike helmet on, i should imagine a burka would be even more intimidating.
These sort of cultural rules should be made clear before immigration takes place. I think you would be doing these females a good service, It cant be healthy living in such garb surely. I don't see anything against the head scaff like the indonesians, but the burka is offensive.
Posted by Desmond, Monday, 15 February 2010 10:38:00 AM
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I think this is a difficult issue, from many angles.
The biggest issue of principle is, how does a society which seeks to promote tolerance deal with intolerance? Islam in its many forms is an intolerant religion. One of the many things it will not tolerate is any interference with its version of dominance, not patriarchy, as others suggest. (In a similar way, Islam demands that a Muslim not be subordinate to a non-Muslim - which is the reason a non-Muslim man marrying a Muslim woman must become a Muslim himself, for in Islam the husband dominates the wife. It also effects work-place promotion decisions.)
A Muslim woman is to be dominated by her husband's choices for her, if he chooses to exercise that right under Islamic law. Hence France is challenging the husband's ability to choose for his wife what she will wear. I imagine it won't be the last time French legislators attempt to interrupt this dominance.
The main personal issue is, how does a society deal with the consequences of its actions towards some of its most oppressed members, in this case, those women who choose to or are forced to wear the burka? It is quite likely that the immediate result will be increased isoltion for those women whose husbands demand they wear the burka at all times. Those who have chosen to wear it can choose for themselves if they wear it at those times where it would be prohibited.
Dominance is an intrinsic value for Islam, and I support any action which seeks to expose and challenge it. Islam's need for dominance is based on intolerance, and it should not be tolerated. The conundrum exists. And I support any program to ameliorate the isolation this action will likely cause.
Posted by camo, Monday, 15 February 2010 3:01:53 PM
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I find the burqa offensive.
That someone should consider that I should not see them is an insult.
If they do not want to be seen then they should stay indoors.
Certainly I would not do any business with them.
You cannot enter a bank wearing a motorcycle helmet.

From the woman's point of view it must be uncomfortable on a hot day
and be restrictive to wear. Perhaps moslem women are afraid of men.
Sad
Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 16 February 2010 8:10:01 AM
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Could i just clarify one point?

These sorts of bans are intended to do what?

What is the over-riding objective?
Posted by grateful, Friday, 5 March 2010 10:16:50 PM
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