Just how thick can they get? The dust has just settled on Bronwyn Bishop, and Loopy Ley dashes in to make a fool of herself. A majority of one in parliament, isn't it?

Perhaps we need to wait and see when all the
facts are in before making any judgements?

Health Minister Susan Ley has stood down from the
frontbench following controversy over her tax-payer
funded travel. She will stand aside without
ministerial pay while an investigation is conducted
as to whether she broke any of the Ministerial
Standards. Her claim is that all of her flights in
and out of the Gold Coast in recent years were related to
her job and that she did nothing wrong.

Lets wait and see what the findings are.
That's only fair.

Anyway we taxpayers can afford it, look at all the savings that the Government are making in our name; pensioners---.

Anyway we all make impulse purchases of chocolate and space-craft.
She saw a neat little Gold Coast unit with new rubbish bin and paper across the toilet seat $.8m . Buy it and a mango smoothie, fly home.

At a time when the politicians are making cuts to pensions and the like, just being within the rules is not good enough. After all, these people have wasted our taxes and put us in the position we are in, so the least they can do is share the pain they helped to cause.

Being so called 'within the rules' should only apply in good times, not tough times.

Typical Liberal Party philosophy, believing they are our betters, a class above the ordinary folk. As such, being our betters they have this entitlement mentality, and can do no wrong. This woman is a sick joke, and Turnballs should have sacked her last week. Another Bronie Bishop type, common as cucumber sandwiches at a garden party with this Liberal mob!

Seems, our so called Health Minister believes the Gold Coast is the center of the universe when it comes to health services. Not only did Ms Ley buy a luxury $800,000 unit on the GC from a Liberal Party benefactor (nudge nudge wink wink) all on a wimsey, while being paid to perform work for us taxpayers, but Ms Ley has been exposed as having a rock'n good time, again at taxpayers expense, and again no where else but the center of the health services universe the Gold Coast. Ms Ley, not once, but twice, attended extravagant New Year's Eve parties hosted by Liberal Party donor and multi millionaire Sarina Russo, (nudge nudge wink wink), all on the taxpayer!

As health services in Australia lunge from crises to crises as people wait for treatment in overcrowded hospitals, our party girl of a Health Minister is doing her best to relieve the situation, be it at fancy do's on the Gold Coast!
So if you are ever unfortunate enough to suffer a medical emergency and rush off to your local hospital, you will most likely sit there for hours in pain waiting for treatment, remember our party girl of a health minister is working hard on the gold Coast for you! (nudge nudge wink wink).

Our party girl Suaaan has a history, back in the 70's the party girl was a punk rocker, Ley walked around with no shoes, black lipstick, spiky purple hair, a dog collar, and a nose piercing connected to the razor blade in her ear.

Over 30 years later, she still describes herself as a "recovering punk rocker from a time when it really mattered." With all these parties to attend maybe the recovery is slower than expected.

More bad news; "Health Minister Sussan Ley has been forced to repay four travel expense claims for trips to the Gold Coast,."

Maybe Turnballs should make the party girl the Minister for the Gold Coast. Considering she is almost there, and spends a great deal of taxpayers time there. Being the member for Farrer which is situated in south west NSW on the Victorian boarder, not much party action in Farrer, unless you count the local square dance in the wool shed as party action

Tsk! tsk! Paul, but spot on!!

What is needed is a real, strong policy on expenses.
In fact how about a web page giving EVERY public servant's position and renumeration (As in pension, wage, expenses and any fringe benefit) including every politician? I cannot see this even getting a hearing here never mind with the pollies.
By the by this sort of rorting goes on in business too but the punishment can be very swift and harsher than for the public service.

Two things here,

Firstly, if the taxpayers didn't pay for the flights, who would have?
She wasn't going to pay for flights, obviously.
What favours would she then owe to the hidden benefactor/s?

Secondly, does the equal opportunity quota system really work for us here?
In other words, are we getting the right person for the job, as ministers, or just another quota filled, in the name of political rectitude?

Nuff said, first post.

There are 3 Defence ministers, should be 1 with a jury of 12 to sign off the time-sheet and petty cash ( for helicopters, limousines).
Same for Aboriginal bush communities, some-one should check-off each $10,000 or $1/2 million fee to expert contractors.

She could take a leaf out of Gillard's book and claim misogyny

The bottom line is this: Australian politicians are bottom of the barrel types, intellectually and morally. Until we voters are prepared to get off our backsides, sweep them all out and start again with people who realise that governments only govern as long as they have our permission to govern, this country will continue its rush to the bottom.

What with Bronwyn & now this one, it looks like a good argument to get these women out of the ministry, & even better, parliament.

Obviously they are a bit too good at ripping us off.

Now for the explosion.

Pickering follows up today with a shonk (Burke) from the other side doing the dirty with our money and his bit of squeeze from the mail room. Is it compulsory to be muck to get into Australian politics?

Apparently it was not a spur of the moment purchase as she
had inspected another main beach unit and made several bids
but was out bid sometime previously.
Also I know about the area, my brother-in-law has a Main
Beach unit and under $800 k seems a good price.
Now, IF, she was in the area and really on business and while out for
lunch and saw the advert in a window would it be such a terrible thing
to go and look at it and decide to buy it ?

All that is on the presumption that she really was in the area for
work and did not fly there to buy a unit.

Now look it a different way, you were a union rep and working in the
area for your union employer and you saw a car for sale which was
just what you wanted and had been looking for, and the price was
right, would you say to yourself,
"Oh I am working I will have to let it go.".
Yeah right !

On another point being made about hospitals;
I had to take my wife to the emergency section of the local public
hospital twice recently. We could not have got better service.
We waited about five minutes and was ushered into the reception room.
Doctor gave a quick lookover then moved her into the main emergency
section, all in about 15 minutes.
After preliminary treatment about 2 hours later moved her into a single room in a ward.
For a patient that was not a serious emergency what better could you expect.
All the latest singing and dancing equipment, nurses that obviously
knew what they were doing.
At the same time ambos came in with patients.
Frankly I was very impressed with it all

Whether or not Ms Susan LEY acted in strict accordance within parliamentary rules or not, is immaterial in my view. What I find indefensible, especially when many of our poor Pensioners and others, all of whom are on low incomes, are encouraged to tighten their (economic) belts because of tough economic times. And yet we see our politicians happily gallivanting about, essentially at taxpayers expense.

It's little wonder the electorate as a whole are losing respect for their political leaders, when they observe the munificence that seemingly abounds, for their exclusive benefit. All our politicians have their snouts in the trough, to a lesser or greater degree.

Therefore I don't believe Ms.Susan LEY's alleged breach of parliamentary rules amounts to very much at all, a misdemeanour if that. No, her crime was being found out !

Paul,

Sarah Hanson Young is still trying to pay back her abuse of entitlements. Why haven't the greens fired her? What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Foxy Quote
"Perhaps we need to wait and see when all the
facts are in before making any judgements?"

With most of the politicians we have today that would translate to, before you pass judgment give me time to fabricate a good excuse or give me time to blame someone else.

The rules for what they use public money for need to not be so open to vague interpretation they can do what they want.

They know what they are supposed to do to do the right thing but some are just plain greedy bloodsuckers.

Write the rules in plain English get them to sign a copy with a appendix that if they break the rules it is equivalent to a notice of resignation.

"Sarah Hanson Young is still trying to pay back her abuse of entitlements. Why haven't the greens fired her? What's good for the goose is good for the gander."

Good point and very pertinent.

Politicians are politicians and as such are expected to exemplify the Rule of Law, which they, as law makers, create.

If Hanson Young has the gall to flout the rules of politics then, of course, she puts her head on the block.

The Greens in particular, being 'holier than thou' proclaimers, need to respect and uphold the rules of politicians.

Should politicians be allowed to drive drunk because they are politicians? Of course not! Same rules apply.

Shadow, when you can't defend the indefeasible, in this case another Liberal snout in the trough, you try to deflect the debate onto some unfounded erroneous nonsense. Another 'CHOPPERGATE' my boy!

Yes. this Gold Coast apartment at $795,000 might prove to be a very good deal for Loopy Ley. Come clean on the details surrounding this property deal Ms Ley.

My point being, regardless of which facet of politics they claim power as adhering to, they all have the same ideology, ME FIRST.

They don't represent any of us and don't intend to.

A dictatorial regime is no different.

We elect these folks and their true colours glow brightly, ME FIRST.

Bash the Pensioners and Unemployed in the name of national interest savings. These savings are to buy the apartments, fly aimlessly to parties, join the rich club 'Showbiz for the ugly' as Mark Latham correctly named it.

I couldn't agree with you more FOOL ON THE HILL. I've always contended how politicians should have their own dedicated policing service not only to provide physical (close) protection facilities. But when necessary, investigate any or all allegations of malfeasance, whether arising from their own electorate or if they have a portfolio, their specific ministerial performance. Perhaps then the notions of ethics, honesty, accountability and probity may once more become familiar, in ordinary discourse between political opponents.

It has now come to light in the 'Loopy Ley' affair that Ms Ley spent a total of 37 nights at taxpayers expense on the Gold Coast! I ask again of her supporters (if she has any here), should we regard the Gold Coast as the center of the Universe when it comes to heath services in Australia, Ms Ley certainly thinks it is! And the property buyers Dreamland as well.

Turnball's has appointed some Sir Humphrey Appleby type from his department to "investigate" the whole affair. Will it be another whitewash? I would bet the "investigator" does plenty of first class flying around Australia at taxpayers expense as well!

Paul 1405 said;Shadow, when you can't defend the indefeasible
"indefensible" ?

Exactly what you do, now I am looking for a word to describe you;
hyp---, no, one ey--, no. If I keep looking I know I will find a word
that will describe you exactly.

Dear Paul,

Scandals of one sort or
another have plagued politics and politicians
for years. I've been doing some interesting
reading on the subject and both sides of
politics have been affected. Neither side is
squeaky clean. It appears from what I've read
that ministers initially resist calls for
resignation opting for some form of explanation
and the focus shifts to the Prime Minister and
how he or she handles the situation. This becomes
the primary focus of the scandal with the
accountability of the minister becoming of
secondary concern.

cont'd ...

It looks like the Opposition is not about to
let the current government off regarding this
matter. And of course other politicians will
jump into the frey for their own self interests.

All politicians are not the same, the SF&F MsP have never been accused of rorting their allowances and the same goes for other minor parties and most Independents.

For you Bazz its all indefensible!

Now moving on, the trough gets bigger! Another Liberal heavyweight aka Julie Bishop, is she related to our Bronnie? has been caught out claiming $2716 to attend the POLO at Portsea, claiming it was "official ministerial business"! Did they fly in the horses by helicopter, we may never know!

We shall add her to the list!

I've always found it odd that Julie Bishop would find an official reason to be in Sydney or Melbourne whenever her footy team was playing in those cities.

Likewise, "lifter" Joe Hockey would charge the taxpayer to transport his family to visit his Queensland Hobby Farm when he was on "official business" nearby.

Tony Abbott used to charge the taxpayer for attending his charitable events, despite them often providing meals and accommodation and making Travel Allowance claims technically fraudulent.

No doubt there are politicians on both sides with their snouts in that very deep trough.

As someone who had experience in Public Service Travel Allowance years ago, I know how potentially easy it could be to cash in that gravy train if you're high enough up the ladder.

For people in my humbler position, entitlements were well policed and some offenders were dismissed and some even imprisoned for what politicians openly do today.

There's probably a good a reason that the highest Daily Rate TA allowance in the country is in Canberra - higher than Sydney or Melbourne but it can't be for accommodation or meals.

Funny too how Parliamentary sessions last the same time that this Daily Rate lasts before it goes onto a more tightly policed Review Rate.

Something very significant that the media have failed to mention is that these allowances are totally tax-free and are not included as income.

Likewise, where do those massively accrued Frequent Flyer Points end up?

Hi Foxy,

I have to agree with you. if its not the LIBERALS with their snouts in the trough, its LABOR members. To be fair to the Labor Party, who are not squeaky clean in regards to wroughting the system, they tend to do it less in government, than Liberals. Why is this, the Liberals feel they have a divine right to rule, to them it is their class responsibility as the betters in society to undertake the tiresome and somewhat irksome task of ruling the riff-raff. Consequently these Liberals feel a senses of entitlement, small recompense for performing this odious duty, of ruling that is!

Paul,

When you can't defend the indefensible actions of the greens then you deflect onto the libs.

On this issue the greens have their noses as deep into the trough as either the libs or labor.

Two morons pursuing this from Labor are Burke and Shorten whose unexplained travel expenses far exceed those of Ley.

Dear Is Mise,

I did not say that all politicians are the same.
However candidates endorsed by
major parties benefit from an established organisational
structure and secure financial backing. Hence these
measures have a greater impact on party endorsed
candidates due to their higher level of representation.
They receive additional support of entitlements ranging
from staffing entitlements and other allowances.

Dear Paul,

You may find this interesting:

MPs forced out of parliament or the party in the
last 31 months:

Scott Driscoll (Lib. National Qld)
Troy Buswell (Lib. WA)
Chris Spence (Lib. NSW)
Darren Webber (Lib. NSW)
Gary Edwards (Lib. NSW)
Andrew Cornwell (Lib. NSW)
Tim Owen (Lib. NSW)
Craig Baumann (Lib. NSW)
Bart Bassett (Lib. NSW_
Peter Dowling (Lib. Natl. Qld)
Marie Ficarra (Lib. NSW)
Billy Gordon (Labor Qld)

These are MPs sacked from the Executive Government:

Barry O'Farrell (Lib. NSW)
Arthur Sinodinos (Lib. Fed)
Greg Pearce (Lib. NSW)
Mike Gallacher (Lib. NSW)
Chris Hartcher (Lib. NSW)
Jo-Ann Miller (Labor Qld)
Adem Somyurek (Labor Vic)
Mal Brough (Lib. Fed)
Jamie Briggs (Lib. Fed)

MPs sacked from Speaker roles:

Adam Marshall (Natl. NSW)
Bronwyn Bishop (Lib. Fed.)

And so it goes...

I understand that Ms. Ley was born in Nigeria. Perhaps therein lies a slight hint as to her fast and loose use of other people's money to get what she wants.

The polical pundits (not always right, I know) appear have reached a consensus that Ley is toast this time; they even have a replacement lined up - Slippery Sinidonis, who has own intriguing stories. I once attempted to discuss something with that gentleman via email, only to be told he would 'explain' himself only if I gave him a telephone number so that we could speak to me. Whether he was simply reluctant to commit his 'explanation' to paper (he had had public accusations made against him at the time) or whether he wanted to bamboozle me, or even threaten me, I never found out, because I am not as silly as he thought I was. Anyway, I do hope that the pundits are wrong about his elevation to health minister. If Ley deserves culling, Slippery most certainly does.

The point about culling politicians is this: they all need to go. They have had generations of practice, deceiving, lying and cheating. We now have an actual class of person who doesn't know right from wrong ruling this country. One of them pops up, panting that something 'must be done', but you can bet your most treasured possession that that person claiming that something needs to happen is at it himself with the worst of them; it's inbred, one of the identifying factors od what it means to be a politician. They are all rotten to the core, folks, and it is only we, sneered-at 'ordinary' people, who can do something about it.

ttbn is correct here
We now have an actual class of person who doesn't know right from wrong ruling this country.

They are called sociopaths, and one in 25 folk are afflicted.
This is all very well documented.
They know right from wrong, are highly intelligent, motivated, very often.
However, sadly, they do have judgement but only have regret and remorse 'when caught'. Ring a bell?

My hunch is that the hall of Parliament are overflowing with them. Well worth reading about.
This is a full blown personality disorder.
Once you start to get informed about it, it is terrifying.
They live amongst us, and often attain positions of power, bosses, CEOs, Pollies, PM.

Terry Barnes also believes that Ley will not return to cabinet. In The Spectator online today, he describes her as a "bad minister" who did a "crapulous" job. A very succinct report on one of the 'quota' girlies. With any luck, we will see the polo-loving Foreign Minister put on the rack when parliament finally struggles back to work - if 'work' is the right word for the high life these grubs enjoy at our expense.

Hi Foxy,

Your figures support what I said about a conservative belief in their god given right to rule, and as such a sense of entitlement, which is not as evident within Labor ranks.

Hi Is Mise, your notion that independents and minor party members do not engage in extravagance to the same extent that those of the Liberal and Labor Parties do, is true. There is a couple of reasons for this, not the least that they are never in government, and secondly that they tend to take their responsibility as parliamentarians a bit more serious than the big two members. They over compensate to a degree in doing the morally right thing. Remember Ted Mack. honest to the extreme.

"Greens leader Richard Di Natale and the party’s community ­services spokeswoman Rachel Siewert are among the top 10 spenders on taxpayer-funded flights despite loudly condemning excesses by Coalition and Labor politicians.

Senator Siewert claimed more expenses for domestic flights in the first half of 2016 than her fellow West Australians, Foreign Minister Julie Bishop and Finance Minister Mathias Cormann.

Her travel spending was the fifth highest, while Senator Di Natale’s was 10th of the 226 members of both houses of parliament. Senator Siewert claimed $63,934 in travel expenses in six months while Senator Di Natale racked up $56,526."

Shadow, I for one do not have a problem with politicians in general spending taxpayers funds on legitimate taxpayer business. I would expect the PM, and his ministers, along with senior members of the opposition, and others, to rack up a rather substantial bill in that department. Travel is a necessity of government, nor do I expect the likes of the PM to fly cattle class on 'No Star' airlines, heaven forbid he could be sat next to the riff-raff, do you fly often?
What I do have a problem with, and it is quite clear, some politicians engage in extravagance, Bronlyn Bishop's 'Chppergate' is a prime example. Others simply act fraudulently, conducting private affairs at taxpayer expense, Loopy Ley is a prime example of that, Ms Ley, has been caught out, and now she has to pay the penalty.
I made the point, and Foxy provided the evidence, that conservative members of parliament tend to grossly over claim in relation to the claims of other members, and I put this down to an extravagant sense of entitlement. There is no doubt the system needs a major overhaul, as polititions setting their own standards is not acceptable, well it might be to polititions, but not to the rest of the community.

Hi there FOXY...

That list of names you kindly provided of parliamentarians sacked or forced to step down, for their indiscretions was truly fascinating and a damn disgrace when you think about it. Moreover, I note the majority were from the coalition's benches. Meaning the others, Labour and the smaller parties are either clean as the driven snow, or yet to be identified ? Most interesting in many respects.

How have you been with your health difficulties ? And I hope your dear Mum is well settled, and happy under the circumstances.

Shadow another one of your selective 'PORKIES'! running off at the mouth like you do.

Overall claims for travel and associated expences by the four you mention. (from the official Dept of Finance chart for the period in question).

BISHOP $517,707, CORMANN $161,643, DI NATALE $80,644, STEWART $78,326.

As your number one pin up gal, the lovely Pauline would say "Please Explain!"

Look at them Liberals go, and go, and go! Lucky old Julies don't suffer from air sickness!

You know why politicians always keep doing the same things?
- Because the punishment is not enough of a deterrent.

There is no such thing as democracy if they make their own rules.
There is no balance of power.
If they make the rules for us we should make the rules for them.
Until people get this nothing will change.

Told you all months ago. Build a fancy prison in Canberra to put them in when they screw up, and let them know we mean business.

Do that, and these things will cease to occur.
Until then, discussing the situation is a total waste of time.
Aussies will live and die and nothing will ever change, so what's the point?

You know Paul,
I think everything the government does contains a level of incompetence.
They blow taxpayers monies like it was money created from thin air and not money people labored for.
Thinking about these travel expenses...
Does the expenses person for the government pick up the phone and contact someone at Qantas to discuss a Parliamentary discount on travel expenses?
Or do they just pay full retail on airfares?

Why don't they pick up the phone and negotiate a 20% discount?
Airline staff get about 90% off so there should be some room to move if you are negotiating millions of dollars in yearly airfares.

And the same with cars..
Why does the government negotiate with dozens of 'approved dealers' instead of mass purchasing required vehicles yearly from the manufacturers themselves?

If they are so big on the environment why don't THEY contribute by purchasing electric cars? After all they would be onsold to Australian citizens afterwards...

Everything is hypocrisy, waste, bad policy and arguing over petty issues that don't even matter for the majority of Aussies, a complete failure and demonstration of endemic incompetence from our leaders; who in my opinion, couldn't organise a chook raffle or a Sunday BBQ on their own, and in later years after too many tax payer paid lunches would be flat out getting dressed in the morning without someone helping them.

Why are you lying again Paul?

Read my post, and then take both feet out of your mouth. I quoted domestic travel, not the international travel required for the foreign and finance ministers.

Why do senators without portfolio in Tasmania and Victoria have higher internal travel costs than ministers that live in Western Australia? The answer is that the greens have their snouts deep in the pockets of taxpayers.

Shadow, could hardly expect your gal Bishop to do much air travel within Australia, unless of course it has to do with racing, rugby or the polo! Bishop spends huge amounts of taxpayer funds jet setting around the world, making a fool of herself, all five star! Couldn't have the time to do any domestic chores.

Julie Bishop charged the Taxpayer $2361 to attend the 2014 Melbourne Cup! Yet on the same day she was 'hosted' at the event, by an Arab airline, and a booze company! Overall her little escapades to these glitzy events in 2014/15 cost the taxpayer over $11,000! Bishop called it "official ministerial business"! So getting pissed in the marquee on a Tuesday afternoon is official ministerial business is it! Sounds like the actions of another famous MP, Sir Les Patterson.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-12/julie-bishop-charged-taxpayers-for-melbourne-cup-rugby-polo/8178408

Dear O Sung Wu,

I'm sure that many pollies of all persuasions are guilty
of rorting the system. The temptations must be great for
them. Who knows what any of us would do given the same
opportunities - we hope that we'd remain true to our values
but who knows. In any case I think that there will be a
reform of ministerial standards - there has to be - and the
more people protest the sooner it will take place, hopefully.

Thank You for asking about my health. I'm having a review at
the Austin Hospital on Tuesday morning. I'm going in for an
echo and an hour later for a six minute walk test. Then on
Thursday I'm meeting with my specialist to evaluate my meds.
Hopefully the results will be more positive this time.
Later mid-year - I'm due for an MRI to see how the blood
clots on my lungs are doing and to check my muscles for
a complete shoulder reconstruction operation. Wish me luck.

Mum is improving a bit. She's now able to walk with her walker
(we encourage her to walk daily - short distances).
She only uses the wheel-chair in emergencies.
She has good days and bad days -
I recently brought her some photographs of my father - she did
not recognise him. Still that's dementia. She still knows who
I am and for that I'm grateful.

Again, Thanks for asking.

Take care.

More Ley,
See this little beauty from the Canberra Times

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/sussan-ley-charges-taxpayers-13000-for-capital-city-charter-flights-20170110-gtosl7.html

"Health Minister Sussan Ley charged taxpayers more than $13,000 to pilot private charter planes along busy capital city routes and is refusing to say why she didn't use cheaper commercial options."

Saves all that waiting to go through the gate!

Peter Dutton was dining well at the poor old taxpayers' expense (emphasis on expense),

"Taxpayers picked up the bill for a $4000 five star "working dinner" that included seven bottles of fine wine hosted by Immigration Minister Peter Dutton at a prestigious luxury hotel in Washington DC."

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/taxpayers-slugged-for-peter-duttons-4000-dinner-in-the-us-20170112-gtq308.html

We must expect our Ministers to watch their diet.
No cheaper Australian wines when trying to impress the natives.

Foxy
we hope that we'd remain true to our values
but who knows.

I sure don't think I would.

My hunch is that folk start off idealist etc and from then on, power, causes a slippery slope, to open up at their feet.
Much as squeaky clean may be a good look, in practice, it is unrealistic and rare.

It's really how much you slip down the slope, and of course, there is the terribly difficult adjustment to normal life, upon relinquishment of the job.

Apparently, once you've had a private jet, you can't stand commercial flying any more.... and so it goes.

I think I would show them, what a bungler and Badass, looked like :-)

Hi Foxy, as me old man used to say; "Its only a wrought if ya not in on it!" a bit of a philosopher was me old man.

Since I'm on the history. here is a little story for you. The first Australian poly to undertake a semi-official government overseas trip was Joseph Cook in 1903 (later PM and no relation to the famous captain by the same name). Old Joe set out by steamer from Sydney to San Francisco on America's west coast, unfortunately Joe had to meet the expense of the trip from his own pocket, federal money promised was not forthcoming. Being a man of only modest means, and the whole exercise taking longer than Joe expected, about six months, Joe did find himself in lodgings of less than desirable standards, so he reported. All I can assume is Joe did not cut any fancy deals with the Americans, and was left to fend for himself, living in a San Francisco dump, until he was able to purchase a return boat ticket down under.

Hi there FOXY & FOOL ON HILL...

I guess we're all amenable to the occasional questionable benefit, especially if there's an absence of a paper trail. The delineation between an occasional benefit, to which we're not entitled; and criminal corruption, in law at least, is nought.

The only question is magnitude and circumstances. If there exists an identifiable element of mens rea; the intent to seek that benefit, and a clear actus reus; the actual receipt of the benefit, then corrupt activity has been established.

I've often wondered why coppers have not been involved ? Most probably because our political masters don't like the waters to be muddied too much, therefore they don't wish to have a formal inquiry into their nefarious activities. Probably because they can't control or orchestrate a desired outcome ? Criminal investigations, are generally not limited by 'Terms of Reference' unlike Royal Commissions, and these Senate Inquiries.

We all hope your next hospital check-up will prove to be just routine and completely fine as well too FOXY. As will your dear Mother gradually come to accept her new surroundings as time goes by. So please, just take care of yourself and allow that fine intellect of yours to further confuse and confound us slow thinking males.

Dear FOH.

You're right - I probably would fall into the trap as well
(the devil made me do it). And then suffer the consequences
if caught. I don't think that I could do anything major
or really, really bad though - especially if it hurt other
people. I'm still a believer that God would get me for it. ;-)

Dear Paul,

Thanks for the story. However I think it was Oscar Wilde who
said something to the effect that - "I can resist everything
except temptation." Most of us would indeed be tempted I'm sure.

Dear O Sung Wu,

Thank You for your kind words (and big heart). I am learning
to think positiively concerning my health issues. I'm in
excellent hands with the specialists (glad to be living in
this country). As for mum - I have to accept - it is what it
is and deal with things as best as I can. She enjoys my visits,
and the stories I tell her about her life, the photos I share.
The moments are very dear to me.

We can always rely on the sanctimonious virtue signalling hypocrites from the do nothing greens to wag their fingers at the government while doing exactly the same.

Paul is a prime example first saying "Shadow, I for one do not have a problem with politicians in general spending taxpayers funds on legitimate taxpayer business." then criticizing JB for spending $2k at the races, with not a jot of an idea of whether she was entertaining dignitaries, as she is often required to do

Ley has resigned from the front bench, and Turnbull has missed another opportunity to earn some points by publicly sacking her. She did not have the right to fall on her sword; she deserved a humiliating sacking and a damn good bollocking from the PM. If only he had been man enough to do it! But, like Tony Abbott being 'loyal' to Bronwyn Bishop, he did not have the backbone. To hell with 'loyalty' to crooked policians, Prime Minister; how about some loyalty to the people you are supposed to be serving - the Australian voters?

All we have here is the end of a sorry saga about another corrupt politician to be followed by many, many more. All because Australia does not have a decent, honest and fair dinkum political leader.

Well, I wouldn't be tempted; I passed up a good promotion offer in the Public Service because I'd have been moving into the graft orbit, so I let my resignation stand; and in other jobs I rarely was given anything involving an expense account twice as I failed the test of padding it out the first time.
Not that I was any more moral, I was just better at recognizing the ultimate consequences and weighing up the odds.

Ley gone, time for more Baygon.

Shadow, are you familiar with the expression 'Do you think I came down in the last shower!". You put up some utter nonsense "she (Julie Bishop) was entertaining dignitaries, as she is often required to do" When in fact the good old gal was invited to the Melbourne Cup Tuesday afternoon booze up by a foreign airline and a booze company. She was the invitee, not the inviter, so there is no bases for your claim that Bishop may have been "entertaining dignitaries", she was the one being entertained! There was no justification for Bishop to claim a $2361 work related expense against the taxpayer, it was a fraudulent claim, for a booze day off, end of story. Poor old Turnball's and its only the start of the year, and Friday 13th, a noted bad luck day ah Mal.

Interesting that the ones loading the ammunition for News Ltd to fire, in the first instance, which ultimately brought down Loopy Ley was not the Labor Party, but Abbott supporting members within the federal Liberal Party. Now a leading scum bucket within the Liberals is demanding a juicy plumb from Turnball's for past favors. The same malcontents that brought down Ley, are now working hard to pay back Julie Bishop for her loyalty to Abbott, and their side of politics.

Fess up Turnball's, make the findings public! Typical 'Yes Minster' stuff from Turnball's!

Paul,

Actually I do think that there is one of you born every minute.

The job of foreign minister is not the pointless virtue signalling of the greens but to encourage trade and business ties, and includes attending many functions. The fact that she was invited by a foreign air line should give a clue to even the most feeble minded that possibly there was a link with her official duties, but that would just interfere with your virtue signalling.

So how is Diseased Rhiannon and her newly formed band of Stalinists? Goose stepping to the sound of Red Flag?

Dear SM,

Your above post has lowered the bar
in this discussion. Not worthy of you.

Just a tad hypocritical Foxy?

Paul's Turnball's OK but not Diseased?

Shadow, my reference to Turnball's could just be a typo on my part! Just as likely as your gal Julie being at a soiree party on the first Tuesday in November at Flemington racecourse stitching up high powered trade deals! I have a word for that BOLLOCKS!
Getting stuck into the 'hors de hovers' and free glasses of imported 'Moet Chandon' at 500 bucks a throw, hardly warrants slugging the taxpayer $2361 for so called work related expenses. Pray tell what big deals did Bishop stitch up at those boozy party days?

"Not worthy of you (Shadow Minister)." Can't agree Foxy that is totally worthy of the lad, it fits Shadow all over.

We have another Liberal 'Snouter'; Trade Minister Steve Ciobo says he did nothing wrong in charging taxpayers more than $1,100 to travel to the AFL grand final in 2013, saying such sporting events are work related." too right Stevo', pull the other leg. A quick check of Online news has thrown up countless stories of Liberal snouters ripping off the taxpayer. I have a word for that, DISGRACEFUL;

Shadow, should a worker be entitled to claim 10 scorners a night as a work related tax expense, on the grounds that he can't face the boss unless he is hung over, you being the boss! A Liberal Party member surely would.

Between all the footy, racing, polo, house buying, partying, etc, where do these government members find the time to govern. The answer THEY DON"T!

in the latest report good old Jules spent over $400,000 of taxpayer funds on overseas junkets, whilst Auntie Lee spent zero! Auntie Lee is very careful with the taxpayers dollars

Greens have bigger problems on their hands.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-20/duffy-inside-the-secret-civil-war-of-the-nsw-greens/7525874

Says it all.

Yawn! fool on hill, has just produced some old "news" from six months ago! Fool, how do you get your "news" delivered, sailing ship from England, this is 2017, not 1817. Yawn!

With all that yawning sounds like you need a nap. :-)

The Greens have been napping and fighting recently, not just six months ago. Have you been paying attention. Beginning of the end imo.

Voters are a discerning bunch, seems they rather Ms Hanson over Greens. I thinks the Greens have gone to compost, whereas Hanson still smells like fish and chips.

I live in Greenie land, have had enough of their hypocrisy. They turn to whoever will give them a leg in, just like all the others. No different.

Sorry if I hit a raw nerve, but at least you are awake! :-)

Not quite sure what a Greens implosion has to do with politicians' rorts.

Fool, I see you are a newbie to the 'Forum'... so welcome, judging by your last couple of posts, you have certainly chosen an aptly named tag. You should make an excellent backup for me olde sparing partner Shadow. The dear soul as usual is floundering in a debate with me. His pathetic defense of Loopy Ley, and his favorite gal Jewels, laughable at bests, ridiculous as usual, I can only hope you can resuscitate the now mortified Shadow, he was shocked when Loopy got the 'Big A', such a shame.
I see you are from Greenland, My friend Shadow is from La La Land, so you should get on well together. He will post nonsense, and you can support it with ever more out of date nonsense. So once again WELCOME!

Ho Hum !

ttbn. as dear old Shadow acts the Don Quixote around here, assisted by his very own Sancho Panza the one calling himself Fool. As the lads are totally unable to defend the indefensible, in this case Loopy Ley and her skulduggery with the taxpayers hard earned, and their number one pin up gal, Ms Bishop, and her penchant for throwing other peoples money around like confetti. Knowing I am a Greens member they have to resort to diversion, exaggeration and down right deception by deflecting the discussion to the Greens. All I can say is good on em', and its lucky I'm not a Freemason, or they would be copping it as well, from the dynamic duo! When all else fails they will try anything.

Paul,

Given your serial offending w.r.t name changing, I doubt it. Especially given the many Labor and greens MPs who have their snouts deeply in the taxpayer's pockets, you are particularly sensitive on this issue.

You seem to be avoiding my question, what are the greens going to do about your darling Rhiannon showing her true Stalinist colours and leaving the reservation? Do the greens really support the destruction of capitalism?

I just love it when my ignorant opinions get proven correct time and time again.
It happens all the time too like I'm now tuned in to the fact the whole world is just a total load of BS.
My last comment on this thread was "a complete failure and demonstration of endemic incompetence from our leaders".

I should have said endemic corruption, just read this.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/finance-minister-mathias-cormann-bills-taxpayers-23000-for-weekend-trips-to-broome-20170114-gtrg3o.html

Seriously, the person charged with managing the issue is screwing us all as well?
Should I really be surprised?
When will you people wake the hell up and face facts?
They are ALL having a field day ripping us off.

They get away with it every time because we let them.

How about I (hypothetically) go steal something that taxpayers paid for?
Would you let me get away with it?
Why do you let them?

But we don't let them get away with it do we?
Because they make the rules for themselves, which as I've said before is THE REAL PROBLEM.

When are you people going to face the facts?

Shadow trying as you will, your diversionary tactics are not working, you may find this interesting:

MPs forced out of parliament or the party in the
last 31 months:

Scott Driscoll (Lib. National Qld)
Troy Buswell (Lib. WA)
Chris Spence (Lib. NSW)
Darren Webber (Lib. NSW)
Gary Edwards (Lib. NSW)
Andrew Cornwell (Lib. NSW)
Tim Owen (Lib. NSW)
Craig Baumann (Lib. NSW)
Bart Bassett (Lib. NSW_
Peter Dowling (Lib. Natl. Qld)
Marie Ficarra (Lib. NSW)
Billy Gordon (Labor Qld)

These are MPs sacked from the Executive Government:

Barry O'Farrell (Lib. NSW)
Arthur Sinodinos (Lib. Fed)
Greg Pearce (Lib. NSW)
Mike Gallacher (Lib. NSW)
Chris Hartcher (Lib. NSW)
Jo-Ann Miller (Labor Qld)
Adem Somyurek (Labor Vic)
Mal Brough (Lib. Fed)
Jamie Briggs (Lib. Fed)

MPs sacked from Speaker roles:

Adam Marshall (Natl. NSW)
Bronwyn Bishop (Lib. Fed.)

ADD! SUSSAN LEY another Liberal snouter to the list.

Di Natale, doesn't bother too much with travel rorts.
He saves money in other ways.
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/federal-election-2016/election-2016-greens-leader-richard-di-natale-fails-to-declare-home-pays-au-pairs-low-wage-20160519-goywxq.html

On his pig farm he, pays less than Newstart, to "au pair" .
Labour abuse? Yup!
Of course, he is outraged at being caught.
"The media are picking on me" he cries, "Now that I'm caught, I'll pay it all back".
Of course he did nothing wrong.
They are all the same.
ttbn's memory is shorter than six months, so I have supplied a fresh and raw example of pollie hypocrisy.
Enjoy.

Paul,

Most of those in your list stepped aside voluntarily, whereas in the Greens and Labor criminals get protected until the very last minute. Just remember Craig Thomson and how long Juliar protected him.

Note that the worst expense rorters in parliament such as Wayne Swan Juliar, Burke, Hanson Young, and Shorten happily stay on.

Greens, are just like all the rest, worse, for being hypocrites.

Greens shut the gate by which they themselves entered politics.

Why?
Fear of new more popular blood!
Fear that they are going down the same schute as all the has beens.
Yup 'fraid so.
Greens have helped Ms Hanson immensely by being reactionary old fear mongers.

Apologies here to ttbn who has complained of being very tired and not remembering news that's over six months past. Luckily, he says he does remember sailing ships bringing mail. I do hope his attention span is up to the task here. Maybe have a bit of a nap before reading this ttbn. Oh umm we don't use sailing ships for mail anymore ttbn. Sorry.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-27/matthewson-the-greens-have-become-the-very-thing-they-hate/6423420

Much as I liked Mr Brown, he has left and taken his hysterical posturings with him.

Hysteria only sells to hysterics.

I don't think there is anything to be gained by marking up the crooks according to label (Liberal, Labour, Greens e.g). All politicians are at it. All politicians are crooks. A politician is a politician is a politician. Politicians all belong to a particularly insidious class that has nothing at all in common with the rest of us. We shouldn't be fighting each other on behalf of any of them; we should be fighting together against ALL of them. I find it almost impossible to believe that any of them had mothers and fathers or any sort of caring, family experience. I am a right wing conservative, but please don't think that
I have any more time for the rorters (or rotters?) currently in government than I have for the rest.

Dear Shadow Minister,

If we were
to continue to weigh up who did the most rorting
it would be a never ending saga. There are many
politicians on both sides of the divide who have
rorted the system who are still happily in office
as I'm sure that you well know.

Greens not about diversity or democracy.

Greens' dirty deal of some time ago (sorry ttbn memory :-)) is why the electorate, has begun to see them, for being, the all out, power hungry fear mongering, predators, that most political parties, end up as becoming.

https://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/di-natales-dirty-deal-with-turnbull-to-stitch-up-the-senate-could-cost-greens,8756

Imo they have lost credibility and I know I am not alone there. The welded / rusted on Green adherents will see the truth, in what is happening to the Greens, and apply heat and / or rust converter. :-)

Even the 'watermelons' in the Greens are finally coming out, in their decrepitude, and showing the real innards of the Greens, red for blood money, red for totalitarianism, and red for lust for power.

Sorry ttbn and others, the Greens have done themselves in, quite grandly.

I have checked the 'RORTERS LIST' as supplied by Foxy, plus I have taken the liberty to add the latest snout the Liberal Party's Sussan Ley. The score as I tally it is;

CONSERVATIVES 21 SOCIALISTS 3

If that was a footy match. it would be a resounding victory for the CONSERVATIVES!

After a couple of plonks, the Conservative captain Fatty O'Barrel said it was a tough match but his side had trained hard all week with junkets here there and everywhere, freebies to the footy and the polo, they have even stuffed their pockets full of taxpayer cash before the match, to prevent the opposition getting cashed up first. When asked what he seen as the turning point in the game Fatty said it was when Bronny came in off her far right wing jumped into a helicopter and shot through to Geelong, the Socialists had no answer to that tricky maneuver!

The 'Tony Abbott' Medal for 'best and unfairest; went to Arfur Sinodinos for consistent ripping off of taxpayers throughout the whole parliamentary season.

The Socialists Captain Billy Gordon standing in left field, said after the match, it was a most disappointing affair for them, Billy said "when it comes to the game of 'ripping off' his side had no answers, the Conservatives are just too skilled at it, they know every freebie move going, and some!"

'evening to you; FOXY & PAUL1405...

I don't think there's any argument in that noble pursuit of 'snouts in the trough', Ms Sussan LEY'S problem was she carelessly broke the eleventh commandment, thou shall not be found out !

And now she must pay the penalty, loss of her Ministerial role and the many allowable perks that comes with that role! Even had she played the game completely straight, she could've continued to sup at the political culvert, all at taxpayers expense, but now she'll be banned for all time, simply through her own stupidity and ministerial arrogance. Really it's like a great big game. They all like to gain some advantage, a freebie, or a fringe benefit or any other description they may like to add to their vast nomenclature of 'perkarisms' !

O Sung Wu
"thou shall not be found out ! "

I think it was what happened after she was found out that really sealed her fate.
She bungled the excuses,
"Oh I just happened to buy the $800K bla bla, on the spur of the moment."
Wrong answer.
If she had said "Oh Crikey, I was up on official business doing bla bla, and I saw my chance to finalise..."
She may have got away with just being naive or a misdemeanor, and a caution.
No, she saw fit, in her panic, to put her entire foot in her mouth, with high-heeled flying shoes attached.
That was her crime, not coming clean and, cap in hand, apologising with the proviso,
"And I will never ever do it again Sir / Madam Speaker".

I thought I was done having my 2 cents on this topic but another thought came to mind.

Now I'm not sure how well I can express my thoughts here, but it's the idea of integrity as something of value as opposed to the financial cost of the rort as being the thing of value.
And what I'm actually trying to put across here is the idea that the smaller valued rorts are actually far, far worse than the more expensive valued rorts.
Let me explain my thinking.
Because the value of the rort is the price they are willing to sell the nation and taxpayers out for.
So if the rort were to equal a $20,000 holiday?
Many people might be willing to 'bend the truth' for that.
But what of the person who's willing to do it over a $50 lunch?
How much faith are you going to have in that persons integrity when it comes to doing whats best for the citizens when a lobbyist with money comes knocking?
Seriously, we already know they will sell us out over something of little financial value, so what should we expect from them in matters concerning us?

Just saying...
If anyone followed my backwards thinking...

Hi o sung wu, being of the old school both of us know about wrought's, as I posted earlier "A wrought is only a wrought if your not in on it."

I could tell you of a couple of stories in my experience about wrought's in private industry. The 'Cabcharge' docket when no cab was involved, or the "laundry" receipt (receipt books cost $2 at any newsagents) when the laundry was done back home on return. Long term, blokes believed it was a right to exploit the allowance system, after all they were giving up certain things for the benefit of the company, what is the difference with polititions, except in our case the company set the standard, with poly's they set their own standard, a case of kids in the lolly shop.
If we were in a pub having a beer I could tell you the one about the bloke and the prostitute charge, and he was up front, and he won the argument in the end. A line from his argument "are you saying my misses' is not high class, what is she, a street mole!" Justification for a $200 one off weekly charge. The counter "If we pay you, what happens if your wife finds out." The short answer was "Who bloody cares." I think they paid him, because he threaten not to "go away" again, and the company need him to, and the GM said "pay him, but keep it quite, put it under something else".

here's an interesting read
http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/comment-a-debt-recovery-letter-to-our-federal-mps/ar-AAlSgfa?li=AAavLaF&ocid=spartandhp

Hi there PAUL1405 & FOOL ON HILL...

Ms LEY has paid a significant penalty when you think about, apart from her leaving the Ministry somewhat in disgrace, and loss of considerable income by her departure therefrom, she'll either not stand at the next election or she'll lose endorsement, or she'll not get elected - in fact she's probably talked her way out of an entire career for all time, over a couple minor indiscretions. Where a contrite mea culpa may have been sufficient to take remove most of the heat from the issue.

Furthermore I'm not aware of her private circumstances, however she's just entered a contract to purchase a circa $700,000 apartment on the Gold Coast ? And my knowledge of the Law of Contract, she'll need to discharge her obligations pursuant to that contract. A somewhat silly lady by all accounts.

G'day there Paul, yeah mate the entire community works on the two tier settlement basis, with a liberal amount of rorting to sweeten the deal. I really don't see how it can be stopped other than increasing criminal penalties - then you've got catch 'em, and the most difficult, prove the matter in a Court of Law. Personally I don't think we'll ever eradicate rorting, moreover I'm led to understand it's an accepted sport in all countries on this small globe of ours ?

Howdy O Sung Wu,
I really don't see how it can be stopped other than increasing criminal penalties

Carrots or sticks?
Guess which works best?
The expense accounts etc are really part of the job, and part of the remuneration package.

Don't forget most of our Parliamentarians are lawyers, and most of them could earn better money elsewhere, as lobbyists and just as senior lawyers.

The thing to do is to make it transparent, legal, clear-cut, and to normalize it all, so we can see it happening and attribute it, to what these folk earn and deserve, whichever persuasion they belong to.

Legislation does not work in many, many areas and especially not for the three quarters of parliamentarians that are legal folk.

Legislating peoples' lives is an, ad hoc, back door form of totalitarianism. Totalitarianism does not work long-term, at all.

Don't forget, 'every unnecessary law, increases contempt of the law'. (anom saying)

Give them carrots, we want the best pollies, not media-circus, coupon-cashing, pensioner-bashing, corruption-centred, no-gooders.

That is what we, by and large, have, at the moment,and we have made it like that, over the millenia.

The way out is to pay folks and pay them on how well they produce what we want.

For starters abolish all travel allowances, after all the worker on a fraction of their income must pay all travel to and from work.

Is Mis, you cant abolish travel expenses as travel is a part of their job and, if one travels for work (other than from home to place of work) that is either paid for or deductable as an expense, and rightly so.

What should happen is travel expenses should be allowed at economy rates and if the MP wishes to upgrade, either to a first class seat, or a limo, they pay the difference from their after tax income.

The other joke is that their partner can travel for free as well, and lets face it, a single MP can now claim their mate to be their partner and fit in the odd game of golf.

I would also like to see an enquiry into expenses and make any repayments dated back to at least three terms as this will include most pollies from all parties.

Today, Turnball's makes the announcement as to which Liberal will replace Loopy Ley at the trough. Liberal Party policy maker Pauline Hanson has commanded that the Mad Monk gets a run, Malcolm met that one with a "Fat Chance" reply, maybe that wont happen. Been a tough couple of weeks for the lad from Point Piper, with a succession of Liberal Drys dropping by, and saying "Malcolm, about that juicy plumb job, on the front bench, remember me, I voted for you, and I don't even like ya!"
Should be an interesting choice. As Malcolm said "I have so much "TALENT" to choose from."