Being a conservative, I just can't quite understand why federal Labor has almost come to the point of imploding ?

What is the REAL problem with Labor ? The PM herself ? Or the parliamentary party that's ostensibly resolutely behind her ? Is it, the corrosive presence of MR Rudd, always stealthily loitering close by in her wake ?

Somehow, I just can't accept it's Ms Gillard herself ! After all, with all her foibles, and imperfections, she stood-up against all the vitriolic accusations and the fierce pummelling, at the hands of the LNP. After which, she returned in kind, at 'twice the velocity', leaving those opposite, stunned, dazed and staggering, particularly one in the personage of Mr Tony Abbott, who seemed confused and bewildered...?

Pause for a moment if you will, and consider ? If Ms Gillard was to head up the Coalition, they'd bolt it in I'm sure, come the election in September ? There is simply no doubt whatsoever, Ms Gillard, personifies strength and premiership ? Further, she is probably the strongest individual sitting in Federal Parliament today !

So if it's not the PM, it must be her Party ? Notwithstanding she has some very capable, smart individuals both in and out of cabinet ? The real problem, Labor's persistently plagued by are the various factions that exercise the real power from within. Most of that power emanates from Sussex St, home of the NSW right ? And the NSW right does have an over representation of reprobates and scoundrels !

That only leaves Kevin RUDD Esq ? Former PM 'emeritus', and a very bitter (understandably) gentleman. Who, despite all his protestations to the contrary, is absolutely aching to remove Ms Gillard from 'HIS' rightful place ? My only observation, while Ms Gillard wishes to remain PM OR, she's removed by the electorate, Mr Rudd will need to content himself 'bobbing' along in her wake for a very long time. You see Mr Rudd, seeks the Prime Ministership, not for the sake of his country, but as a salve for his immense ego.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/gillards-fall-is-far-bigger-than-labors-20130619-2ojdv.html
o sung wo well as you know I live on the other side of the fence.
I need say nothing, the link reminds us all.
But no difficult task as it is truth will and must, out.
It is both, the evidence is in the link.
Let us be honest, even on your side once, Kevin Rudd stood out.
His removal uncovered old wounds.
I believe your side of politics has its grub,s and thieves.
We however in putting our party in the hands of unions,are quite ill.
Brian Burk, your once referred to Rex Jackson, The current flood of filth from NSW.
a PM unloved and unwanted and the avoidance of reform, stalled by those with the most to have removed from them, power.
Yet your side gave us crimes in power minister and police commissioner in QLD.
We need a team not so blind they took Rudd, and gifted us a woman who lies.
It is proved by her survival we must agree ,your answers to both questions is both.
Yet even now Rudd is out of the union/power brokers mold and could win.

The problem with the modern day labor party is that the top job is not what it would appear, as they, the PM are a mere puppet, as their strings are being pulled by the faceless men behind the scenes.

You know a party has lost it's way, when not only do these faceless men replace a popularly elected leader, but also ignore voters wishes by leaving a dud PM in place.

The problem is Labor is on the nose, they get the blame for everything negative that happens. Companies moving hundreds of jobs overseas, businesses closing, not stopping the economic refugees, power and water bills going sky high you name it rightly or wrongly Labor to most people is the reason for all these things.

To that add the political scandals (state and federal) people have just had enough.

To a lot it has got to the point where ANYBODY not necessarily could do a better job BUT they could not do a worse job.

It has even negated the saying the evil you know is better than the evil you don't know.

Where is the REAL problem with federal Labor - The Prime Minister or her Party?

Both actually.

I read an interesting article which described Rudd as popular with the voters and Juliar popular with the caucus. and together they made a strong team. However, after the first few debacles, when Rudd's popularity was dropping, the caucus decided to drop him and put in place Juliar, who on a one to one basis was very popular with the caucus, but had no clue as how to deal with the public, that things started to go really wrong.

politics over policy is one of Labour's main downfall. Admittingly the Liberals do it to however it did not lead to 48000 illegal immigrants and over 1000 drownings. politics over policy has seen the wastage of a huge surplus into great debt because Labour thought they could bribe electorate while sending the country broke. politics over policy by somehow conning a few gullibe people that taxing carbon was going to change the climate. The list goes on and on and on

Good afternoon to you BELLY...

Thank you for your response, I do appreciate it. I fully understand what you're saying, and have been saying for some time now. I think there's little doubt, that Labor will suffer a substantial defeat in September, and as I stated in my initial Topic introduction, I believe it's those 'faceless' individuals in the NSW Right, that should shoulder much of the blame. Also, I believe Mr Rudd, despite what he says, has probably been 'white anting' Ms Gillard every chance he gets. Though I suppose, he can't really be blamed, when you think about it can he ?

BELLY, I've decided to leave both OLO and the Forum for a while, probably permanently ? My health's not been great.

To the other kind contributors, I'll reply to you shortly, I'm sorry.

Dear o sung wu,

There's a variety of problems.

As I've stated so many times previously,
historically Julia Gillard's Prime Ministership
will be seen as an unusually active and reforming
period in Australian public policy. Her legislative
achievements however have not translated into
public understanding, let alone support. Neither
the PM nor the Party has gone about selling
their achievements. They've simply got on
with governing.

The media has added to the public disdain for this minority
government, which is so good at passing legislation and
yet so driven by internal conflict. That is another part
of the problem.

What voters are not used to federally is having
a minority government.
This means that virtually every action
the government wants to take must be negotiated.
This unfortunately is portrayed as a negative,
"the PM was forced to ..."
rather than as an example of the skilled exercise
of governance.

With the election so close, voters should consider as to
what sort of country they want to live in.

Do they want to live in a country where multi-national
corporations strip our land of our resources or do they
want to protect the environment for themselves and
future generations?

Do voters want a society where all children
deserve the right to the same educational standards and
a chance at a worthwhile future?

Do voters want a society where the elderly, poor, sick,
and disabled, are thrown on a scrap heap or do voters want
a society that cares for those in need and supports them
to get back on their feet?

Do voters want a country willing to invest in infrastructure
that benefits all Australians or do voters want to generate
surpluses that are squandered for tax cuts and hand-outs to the
already wealthy?

Do voters want a country where the country's assets are
sold off at bargain basement prices into private hands and
voters are forced to pay a premium to gain access to them
again?

Instead of asking - What's wrong with the PM and Labor?
Perhaps voters should ask -
What's right with Mr Abbott and the Opposition?

Dear o sung wu,

I missed reading your previous post while
I posted mine.

Please accept my deepest well-wishes for your
return to health. You shall be greatly missed
on OLO, and I wish you and your family All
The Best.

Take it easy, and hopefully we shall once again
share time in cyberspace soon.

Thinking of You.

Dear o sung wu,

I will miss your contributions and hope you will return to good health. Your health may not be good, but you at least sound quite sane.

rehctub wrote: You know a party has lost it's way, when not only do these faceless men replace a popularly elected leader, but also ignore voters wishes by leaving a dud PM in place.

Dear rehctub,

Apparently you don't know the system in the country you're living in. Australia does not elect a prime minister by popular vote. Not only does the general public have no say in who is prime minister, but the membership of the party to which the prime minister belongs do not have a say either. The voter's wishes were not ignored. The voters were not consulted. The voters might have preferred Gillard to Rudd if they had been been on a ballot. Maybe you'll write about Australia instead of some fantasy land where the prime minister is elected by popular vote and the wishes of the voters are considered.

As I've stated so many times previously, historically Juliar's Prime Ministership will be seen as an unusually chaotic and incompetent period in Australian public policy. Her legislative disasters and lies have translated into public contempt. The PM and the Party has gone about spinning, and ignored governing.

At present I have no feelings regard Labor.

After Fraser I was a swing voter, probably leading towards Labor. However when he first started to undermine Beasley, while claiming undying support for him, I could see through Rudd.

The thing we see is not a man, but a total construct. His, & probably his lady's idea of what the Oz public want in a Prime Minister. That Rudd is in fact nothing like the persona he presents is so obvious to me I can't understand how so many are taken in by it.

It did not take long for the details of the erratic rat bag he had been as a bureaucrat in Queensland to surface. All the media, & much of the bureaucracy knew what he was, but kept quiet.

We need him like a hole in the head. He is a disgusting excuse for a human being, exceeded in this only by Gillard. She has thoroughly earned every bit of vitriol poured on her, in every possible way.

So o sung, Labour may be able to resurrect itself, they have done it before, but this rot, started by Richardson, is very deep. I do find it ironic, that Richardson now talks sense, having seen where his system of buying votes ultimately leads.

O Sung Wu,

You will be missed for your level-headedness and integrity. All the best, get well soon,

Joe

Good afternoon to you LEXI & DAVID F...

Thank you both for your very kind good wishes, I do appreciate them immensely. Seems I now have the (unwanted) perpetual company of this 'black dog' that follows me around every waking moment.

I guess there are a many causes for Labor's (apparent) meltdown, including the media's continual speculation on the (now settled) Leadership question ? A government that exists by the mere whim of a couple of 'no account' independents, must impose further worries for Ms Gillard's already stretched attention ? Yet she's still managed to push through the lower house, much in the way of necessary legislation !

Might I also suggest, that Mr Rudd is doing absolutely 'nought' to consolidate the government's chances of an electoral victory in September. He appears to be shadowing the PM and attempting to either upstage or usurp her, whenever the opportunity presents. Don't be surprised if he doesn't try to follow her to Indonesia, during the occasion of her Official July visitation, with the Indonesian President ?

Sure, I don't agree with her politics. I don't much care for her. I believe history will probably recorded her as Australia's first female PM, and regrettably, Australia's worst PM ? Of the latter sadly, much of the overall blame is not down to her. But because she's the Prime Minister, it will be her and her alone, that will be held fully accountable for ALL of Labor's miseries and errors, including the massive loss of seats, they'll necessarily incur as a result of the September Polls.

As I've always maintained, Prime Minister Gillard, like her or hate her ? She is by far, the strongest, toughest and best Leader sitting in the Lower House today !

Good evening to you LOUDMOUTH...Thank you so much for your great kindness, I really do appreciate it.

Sorry David F, I should have been a little more specific for you.

Rudd, while labor leader in 07, leading to the election was the main reason labor won with such a large majority.

Today, he would see an instant uplift to labor's polling because many more people prefer him, to Gillard.

Now while I understand the people can't vote for a leader, they sure can wish for one.

Dear rehctub,

What evidence do you have that Rudd was the reason Labor won by such a big majority? I think it was that Howard had passed his use-by date, and Gillard would have won with a big majority also. Rudd was not on my ballot. We vote for a local member of the house, and the candidates for the senate. I take the trouble of numbering all the candidates of the senate on my ballot.

My vote had nothing to do with either Rudd or Howard. I am wary of taking off the restrictions on government's power and appreciate the double jeopardy provision we have in our legal code. Peter Dutton, a Lib, who is our representative favours modifying double jeopardy as there are some miscarriages of justice. I think there would be greater miscarriages of justice if the banning of double jeopardy were no longer absolute. I would have put Peter Dutton last on the ballot whatever his party identification was. Other people had other reasons for their vote.

You are simply wrong - not merely misstating. The prime minister is not elected by popular vote, and the members of a party are not consulted in determining the leadership. The Libs did not consult the membership when they replaced Nelson with Turnbull and replaced Turnbull with Abbott. Why should they? The system doesn't require them to do so.

According to current polls Rudd is more popular than Gillard at this time. That doesn't mean it was so at the election in which he headed his party. I prefer Gillard to Abbott and prefer Abbott to Rudd.

O sung do come back & say hello from time to time old mate, on the good days.

We do need some gentlemen around here to help keep the place civil.

Yes indeed ! Give that old dog a good kick in the guts !

Joe

P.S. No animals were harmed in making this comment.

David F, you have to understand that you are the minority, as the majority vote for the member that represents the party they wish to govern.

Unfortunately this election will be one that is lost, rather than one that is won, if that makes sense.

Now if that party has an unpopular leader, like Gillard, they will simply not vote for labor.

I would go even further to suggest that if K Rudd were to exit politics right now, that labor's primary would plumit, I was going to say hit rock bottom, but I think they are already there.

In my involvement in politics, from about the early 80's, there have been two popularly elected PM's, Hawlk and Rudd, and ironically, they were both labor and they were both dumped by their own parties, not their voters.

I was a huge fan of Bob, still am in fact, I also don't mind Rudd but it's labor, or should I say, today's labor that I would never vote for, unless of cause they were to go back to basics and be there for the people, not the unions.

As for Rudd though, I could never forgive him for what he has done to our borders.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/women-at-stake-in-ugly-debate-20130620-2olps.html
morning o sung wo and all others.
First lets take in the recent history of the ALP.
Some must research but others lived in the time of the split ALP/DLP.
Communism, in far different times, had supporters in the ALP.
DLP/Catholic split came about as Labor had both the faceless men, a Communist invention? well not Democratic and near total control by Unions.
On running for ALP leadership the big fella E G Witlam, had first to go to and get permission from Charlie Oliver AWU head and very powerful right wing faction head.
Any review of the years 1972 till 1975 will clearly show the big bloke *constantly* had to fight union factions, most left but not all.
Stay with me, todays ALP is suffering too, because as it was then,power over ruled policy's.
So in no small part Labor helped bring about its own down fall.
Why hang the dirty washing out to dry?
Because it is my view only the ALP wants to defend the workers and true poor.
ONLY the ALP brings in my view change for the better.
Last, current policy,s of both sides scream to me Labor should be lengths in front, but read the link.
The silver Bodgy bought the ALP nearer its true supporters than any past party leadership even Ben Chifly.
He too bought the unions with him, bar some lost leftys.
The accord put our country,s economy first.
And the right in the ALP took what it must have, control.
continued

After the silver fox we got Keiting,
His speech writer should be shot!
The constant repeating, mad as a hatter stuff.
He told us we had to have the 17% interest and Australia said he had to go.
A blackness, for all those Australians who are not Liberals or Nationals,
Named John Winston Howard, he was a politician.
He could sell his party and views to a degree no one for 40 years could.
He tapped in to our minds, he stop the boats, and for any reason you name we wanted the boats stopped.
Big bright and smiling Kim, a bloke few could not love took the ALP after Latham and Crean, two who walked arm in arm with Gillard,[welcome back Simon] had kicked us in the head.
After winning both houses, from a mad dream that Labor briefly thought was its future,Howard owned for his lifetime that office.
Some will scream in indignation, but work choices and nothing else beat Howard.
Few know but JWH hated union heads the power they had the funds they gave the ALP.
He should have seen work choices flogged those who had been Howard,s Battlers.
Nothing but work choices could have removed him.
Labor was as is the case now, infighting, our best union said not Rudd.
Australia wanted him,and got him.
Rudd, powerful men used to doing as they wished, could not get near Rudd.
Some great unionists but as uneducated about how voters and union members thought, axed the Golden goose.
And even today, watch it, put factions/self ahead of the party.
A blood bath is about to take place soon the ALP after much pain will be for the good
Last consider this,how can a party walk to the chopping block knowing removing its unloved and not trusted head will give it a chance.
Show me evidence those thinking that is ok are fit to be cleaners in Parliament.
Bring back Kevin Rudd and bring in the new brooms, nothing is too good for the voters of Australia, but some think nothing is too bad.

o sung wo posted then read in a thread I knew my position on.
Mate we share the black dog, men are better at hiding it than women, but both sex's get it.
On the blackest morning try to remember in a very short time you became one of this forums best.
And will be missed.
I think it is time to remind posters the ALP is our oldest party, it has been this low before and if nothing else Lexis post proves the internal mutterings are letting a party with few policy's have a walk over victory.
History will remember Gillard, but if she drags my party down not in a nice way, go Madam go.

Belly, the more I think about it, the more I think that Rudd doesn't want the top job, as I think he is going to exit politics, most likely to some cushy job he has in waiting. However, his presence provides a glimmer of hope for the believers.

The 07 election was unique, in the fact that we had a clear winner, AND a clear looser in the one election.

The overwhelming winner was Rudd and the looser was Howard.

The trouble is, that people's stand against work choices,fueled by the unions anti campaign, turned out to be a very bad error in judgement, evidence being the mess we are now in, our borders shot to pieces, and the $400billion odd we now owe, with no real prospects of how we age going to repay the debt, especially post the mining boom, a reallity now.

What few understand about work choices, is that it directly effected very few people, as there were more jobs than workers, so anyone effected was obviously a very poor or low skilled workers, with very few choices.

As I say, a huge error in judgement.

Great post Belly. I do sometimes wonder, what if Beasley had not been rolled. That back stabbing shows Rudd as no better than Gillard. Beasley could have been the man you needed when in power.

Yes Howard always had the guts to take very unpopular policies to the electorate, think GST, & went too far with work choices.

He was right of course. We pay ourselves too much, & pay too much welfare. This will have to reduce, or we are on our way to a Greek future. Howard tried to go too far too quickly, & I don't know if anyone could pull off the cut in lifestyle we have to have, even Keating. He was wrong going too far too quickly, & paid the price.

Of course if the Dollar comes down enough that will do the job for us. Most won't notice if all imports go up a great deal, other than petrol prices, provided they go up smoothly & slowly enough. A good government should be able to survive a spike in fuel prices, & get our housing & living costs back to parity with the rest of the western world.

We have to get the reserve bank off this inflation thing. Inflation is the best way to bring our wages & welfare down to a manageable level, with least pain.

Unfortunately most of this is impossible with unions in control, with out a Keating to play ringmaster. Sorry your man Rudd could never do it, in fact I don't think there is much he could get right, he's never shown any tendency to do so in the past.

Good afternoon to you BELLY ol' son, HASBEEN and Joe (LOUDMOUTH)...

Again, thank you so much for you very kind sentiments JOE, I do appreciate them immensely. AS well as yours too HASBEEN and BELLY.
I appreciate that you've had this horrible little black canine pursue you too BELLY, so as you can imagine, I just wish he'd leave me in peace. There're some terrific people on this Forum and OLO, and it's only when things begin to 'crack' do you realise just how good they really are ! Thank you, every one of you !

BELLY, old mate. You're old enough to realise politics and politicians are really just cyclic. Today, it would seem that Tony ABBOTT is on top, and set for an election win ? Like John Howard, and the LNP after their electoral defeat, LABOR will need to quietly withdraw, in order to lick their wounds, and consolidate the party, in order they may present a strong, united opposition for when Parliament later returns.

Any party recriminations, post their electoral defeat, should be short and swift without staging a protracted period of public 'blood letting'. Nothing is served by engaging in a (public) factional brawl, of a kind that is usually perpetrated by those in Sussex Street ? We can all distinctly remember, the appalling damage occasioned by factional squabbles ?

To this end, it demonstrates to the electorate as a whole. Labor, despite their recent defeat, is up and ready, stronger than ever before, to once more take the good fight up to the Coalition !

BELLY old chap, though our politics is clearly divergent, if ever I were to vote Labor, it would be for a candidate with precisely, the exact same qualities and principles, that you (BELLY) possess !

Take care my friend, and go quietly.

First time I ever questioned GY,s actions, I happen to think he is a great bloke but not keen, election approaching, this thread should be here out of sight.
Unsure too it is actually a thread about the election.
Hasbeen you would be surprised how much you and I would agree.
Just days ago I would have backed a Rudd return.
Now? 6 to 4 against him returning.
Big Kim was a bloke you could trust, he however could not pull the voters.
To see him walk around a meeting made me proud, he lost leadership was not rolled.
But much can be said about the behind the scenes moves in the ALP caucus.
Right now my words, while I believe are true say nothing to that shelter for the aimless.
They must find a skill lacking, the voice of the people.
The ranting that Rudd is being a traitor speaks louder than words, these internal white ants can not see out side the caucus room victory.s ,that feed our coming discontent.
Abbott will win that is certain.
Labors loss will drive reforms and change,that too is assured.
But the reforms include freedom to cross the floor,without being sacked by party,such would have unmasked the Terrigals headed by pure filth in NSW.
Labor too must review our right wing, given the task of marginalizing the very left,they became as much of a threat as those they trumped.
Far from the party,s best interests they now take a single policy in to opposition.
Wait for Abbott,s wrongs to return voters to us.
How mad is that? how treacherous? by just undoing the betrayal of my party replacing Gillard, even with a green frog, would greatly cut our loss.
Kevin will leave months after Abbott,s landslide a better man than his detractors lost to politics forever.

That last 'thread' of yours BELLY old chap, was indeed from the heart ! A more loyal, more pragmatic, true Labor believer that you are my friend !

Big Kim, another who won the award for Mr Popularity, NOT!

I will best remember him for the cartoon in the paper, it was Big Kim, wearing a pair of boxers and a singlet, with a pork chop hanging around his neck.

The caption was, he said to his wife, " on the OFF CHANCE I am wanted on the phone, il be down the back yard playing with the dog".

But in all seriousness, he did seam like a nice guy, just lived at home for too long for my likings and needed to man up a tad.

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/with-regret-gillard-must-go-for-nations-sake-20130621-2onnn.html
My eff0rts to waken the sleeping and foolish heart of those ruining my party has not been easy.
Do not however look to Rechtub for answers.
A deep not well informed and getting worse display comes from my mate.
This link supports my past 3 years of pain, due largley to a deep understanding, of my party,s wrongs.
We must not let our country become, by our actions a single party one.
And, even more important, if not fully understood by some, become a fractured jar of multiple small party,s who gain influence only by *black mail* and over rideing majority wishes, greens Katter,And Mr Millions.

Dear Belly,

Minor parties try to keep the bastards in the major parties honest. Big parties fracture and contain people who build personal empires rather than concern themselves with the general welfare. I know you hate the Greens. Could it be that the Greens have the dedication that the Labor Party once had but doesn't have any more? Somebody like Graham Richardson would have no place in the Greens. We have some of the feeling that the Labor Party had once but will be unlikely to regain. We have no moneybags like Clive Palmer. We don't have a rural power base like Bob Katter. We want to preserve the environment so Australia will be a livable place for future generations. That's bad, huh?

david f - Quote "We want to preserve the environment so Australia will be a livable place for future generations."

Labor have destroyed the economic lifestyle for the current generation, there was not enough money to give pensioners a decent raise, there was nothing to lift the people on welfare from below the poverty line (although some do not deserve it bludgers).
We still have tens of thousands homeless (not 1 homeless refugee.)

The economic invaders are not to blame for everything but they are a considerable contributing factor, the real problem is Labor incompetence and the repercussions of the deals they made with Independents and Greens to stay in power.

Philip S

I think you'll find that refugee migrants tend to be happy to have a roof over their heads. Their community is far more likely to house people in crowded conditions so that they're not out on the street - unlike the locals who may put someone up for a while, but turf them eventually.

So refugee families are often living three to four families in small apartments so that they can access support in particular communities. I suppose you would come back and say that that behaviour creates ghettos...you might be right, but if a refugee chose to range to a wider community choice, he or she would be confronted with no support from a xenophobic public, like the ones who abound on OLO.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-05/numbers-of-homeless-rise-but-rough-sleepers-on-decline/4735160

....A deep not well informed and getting worse display comes from my mate.

Belly, I told you that Gillard would take Rudds job, you laughed.

So, if Rudd does not take the top job, or, he leaves politics, perhaps then you could consider me as, less il informed.

We will know by weeks end.

He is labor's only hope, not of winning, but of saving more than just a cricket team.

Another tip, if labor changes to Rudd, I suspect the libs will change to Turnbul.

A few months ago, on an earlier thread, I suggested that both Rudd and Gillard should be expelled as soon as possible from the Labor Party, and it should immediately begin the huge task of trying to understand what it stood for, and to re-build, perhaps in time for an election before, say, 2025.

Seriously, if both Rudd and Gillard win back their seats in September, and are still in the shambles of the Party, picking their way over the wreckage like survivors of a carpet bombing, won't they leap at each others' throats as soon as they see each other across the rubble ? Can the Party remnants re-group if they are both still prowling around ?

The Labor Party needs clear air. They both must go. Perhaps Abbott could offer each of them junior positions in our Mongolian and Malawi embassies, once all the court cases over the AWU slush fund are over.

Joe

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/unions-set-to-abandon-julia-gillard-their-floundering-skipper/story-fni0cx12-1226666542549
First the black dog, I may start a thread, but a well wisher linked it to what? manic depression?
Some of this worlds greatest suffer from Depression, in all fields.
But it in no way has any effect on intellect, some think it is a side issue it is not..
o sung wo yesterday and this morning that black dog had me in its hold, never mate ever give in.

Link? I value Kevin Rudd first.
But any minute or hour in the next week, could see Shorten take Gillards job.
So bill and as information to readers here are some words for you.
My single best skill as a unionist was hearing and understanding my members words.
Knowing many of them had never voted Labor.
And even more many ignored our on the stump t gee up to vote Labor.
Many of them are generations past my youths lifestyle, hunger and moving from town to town just so dad could find work.
Yet until you Bill, my hero, dumped Rudd, with my life love the AWU I had hopes.
Long gone the dream we could give freely welfare and government housing to every one.
But faith my party was in its self, moving toward changes we could sell to voters.
Bill we are about to leave office, with great achievements and greater policy,s behind us
To be smashed with the wrecking ball Tony Abbott.
We can blame no one but us, unable to choke down the failure Gillards is, you too my ex hero.
And unable to stop the rights dash away from our party, its clearly shown ownership of the party, its refusal to hear our membership.
Yet Bill you are a brilliant bloke, who can lead us for a very long time.
If you understand it is time not for you but Rudd.
Time for my ALP to say sorry, we got it wrong.

I am posting about the same as I always have on this subject.
Hope we all do as the election approaches and that we remain free to have differing opinions.
Some quite wrongly think I am no longer a Labor supporter and yes voter.
Rest!
I will die as both and with pride.
My stance is a demand no more filth.
That word does not cover my views on Sussex Street its sponsor ship of Gillard and of the *NSW FILTH*
I want my party to be trusted again.
But we are in kneeling to the wishes of the few, left greens looneys, chasing ten voters away, for every dill we gain.
END seats in the house for the boys,*only the very best are good enough*
If never having got your hands dirty and wearing a suit are party requirements let us know!
So we can leave and start a new party not a coffee shop for NSW FILTH.
Some out there right now can re build our party if its current owners let him or her get a foot in the door, Anthony Albanese, John Faulkner our party needs you.

It's a bit late in the day but what might have been the effect of the Prime Minister trying to organise a "Men for Gillard" campaign ? i.e. if she and McTiernan and the unions had really put some thought and work into it ?

And if she had had the sense to keep away from a "Women for Gillard" campaign, who knows ? Why on earth does she shoot from the hip so often, putting no thought into something ? 'Captain's pick', eight-month election campaign, her Royal Tour of Sydney's west (has she been out there since ?) - why is everything so dumb-@rse ?

As somebody noted in The Australia, a month or so ago, when a party makes so many disastrous decisions, you have to wonder if its senior management is secretly working for the opposition.

Of course not, but the effects have been the same.

Joe

Gillard has not got the skill Loudmouth to run a market stall, even if she was selling things at half price.
Some in my party are not impressed by the talking heads telling us she is one tough old bird.
That is one of her biggest faults.
She lacks a leaders skill to hear good ideas from her team and re-brand them, if her ego needs that,but use them.
Men of my generation, right or wrong, never wanted controlling women.
And Gillard better fills our mind as one of the less nice mothers in law we had or knew.
Yes close to the election, and yes we should have got rid of her months ago.
But in acting we save seats, plenty of them, but my thoughts go to what if?
What if we change and put the polling on its head.
Will Liberals look closer at Turnbull.

Ok Belly, so let's assume that Gilard steps aside, and Rudd steps up.

I have no doubt labor's numbers will soar, however, seriously, what difference do you think it will make to the way this wayward party are performing.

Do you think Rudd would be king, or would he simply be another puppet?

More importantly, what do you think the people will think.

After all, it was Rudd who started the rot in the first place, so do you think the people will forgive and forget?

My thoughts are that even if he does become leader next week, that his party will still be defeated in September, and I'm not sure he would want to be the PM that lost the election, especially when he could slip into the top job with ease post election.

At best, all he and labor could hope for would be to retain a few more seats.

Meanwhile, we await YET ANOTHER week of speculation rather than expecting the most out of the last sitting week for this term.

Hi Belly & Butch,

Labor can't lose a single seat and still retain government.

Can Labor win Craig Thomson's seat ? No.

Will they regain every seat from which a current Labor member is retiring ? No.

Can they retain every seat in Western Sydney ? No.

Tasmania ? No.

Queensland ? No.

Western Australia ? No.

So no, whoever takes the poisoned chalice will lead the party to utter defeat in September. And then have the job, IF they win their own seat, of re-building a shattered party.

What could have been ....

I'd agree with that summation, Joe. Rudd is simply playing with the heads of the people who screwed him. I'm not even convinced he'll take the leadership if offered it after the election or that he won't resign his seat. It's not as if he needs the work and without him they'd lose any by-election, which would underline his point nicely.

The elephant in the room is the female white collar workforce. I suggested elsewhere that Gillard may be playing a long game to create the conditions for the Party to become essentially a women's group. There won't be any significant male support after the election and her future requires a sympathetic political support base, since nobody else will touch her with a barge pole. She got sacked from the only real job (such as it was) she ever had for being on the take and she's got a large team of detectives breathing down her neck over he involvement in that fraud.

She needs friends in high places, not just an old bloke in Qld who's scared of what she knows and who's power base is dwindling daily as men desert his union in droves. The only group that has any time for her at all is "progressive" white collar women.

Belly,

You had me laughing -

"Gillard has not got the skill to run a market stall, even if she was selling things at half price."

Spot-on !

Antiseptic,

A brilliant analysis, there's a lot there that I hadn't considered.

I wonder if the police will act before the election, or wait.

Joe

Anti,

Have you a link or evidence for the "detectives breathing down her neck"?

My take is that when she's done her dash in the top job, she'll no doubt go on to do something else like all pollies.

I won't vote for her because of some of her government's actions are to me are extremely "on the nose" - especially if one harks back to their rhetoric when in opposition.

I am waiting with baited breath, however, for Tony's gag to be removed. We all know how difficult it is for him to talk about anything without his foot edging its way into his mouth.

I don't understand the references to "detectives"
breathing down the neck of the PM.
She has been thoroughly investigated and not a
shred of any wrong doing was found. While Mr
Aboot's involvement in a "slush fund," is the
one that's pending ligitation.

As for consistently attacking the PM - how about
putting a blow-torch to Mr Abbott and his lack
of politices of any substance? How about calling
him to account, after all he is
hoping to have the top job. Don't Australians
deserve more respect from the man who hopes to lead
the nation? Don't Australians deserve to know
what lies ahead and what's in store for them under
the government he leads? How about having a vigorous
policy-drive debate on things that really matter?

Even the most conservative political commentators
recognise the fact that in the three years that the
PM has occupied the office of Prime Minister (most of
it under the difficult circumstances of a hung
Parliament) Labor has implemented landmark reforms,
which hopefully will remain. Blaming her for the
mess that the party is in currently is not very
intelligent.
These problems will not go away with a change of
leadership.

And as for Mr Rudd? As Mr Keating once said,
"A souffle does not rise twice."

Doesn't Gillard have to retire as PM, & not as a opposition leader or backbencher to get her full pension?

My take is Rudd, just like Costello has no desire to be a looser, & he knows labor is going to loose.

If he does decide to have a go, it will be at the last minute. He can't afford to be leader for long before an election, or the memory of how bad he is will come flooding back, & he'll be right where Gillard is now. Of course it would ginger up his pension.

No matter what, Gillard will be gone post election, thank god, probably into some feminists academic roll, for which her viciousness is well suited. Rudd may be hired as an interpreter by the UN, about all he could do adequately to gain permanent employment, & that organization deserves him as does no other. Otherwise primary school language teacher comes to mind, although parents may riot in that case.

Still I expect some academic post will be organized for him, unless he is not left enough. His boarder protection credentials should ensure his entrance into academia with honors.

This may be only wishful thinking on my behalf. It would be nice to be able to watch a TV news with out the remote in hand, & still not see either of their horrible faces or hear their voices. The thought of how much harm they have caused us turns my stomach.

Much I too do not understand, but somethings others are making up!
Butcher how can any one think ALP leaders, any of them, are puppets?
The problem is this one acts without first advising her cabinet, the other way around to your claim.
And with some certainty *no detectives are breathing down her neck*
In truth they do not want her any more than I do.
Almost 20years ago police failed to find evidence against her.
Now hang on! *think with me*
Polls show Gillard is unwanted ok so far?
Abbott is too.
Liberals will win, still all true?
How then do we get the thought bring back Kevin is a flop waiting to take place?
Now, sorry for introducing such a stupid question but it needs air.
Gillards duds, her support crew,are saying *we need to come together there for Rudd should,well what stop being popular*
Will that bring love and kisses to the Lady many even most Australians have come to loath!

Hasbeen gday, are you threatening me? the thought the dud may lead us after exile is terrorizing me.
Lexi believe me you are not looking at the true views of both men and women.
They know Abbott is a dud, know he will hurt but gee face it, they refuse to even consider the woman and that is shown if we pick the polls apart.
Gillard is the walking dead and currently has my party under her home.
Now if we can only find a way to stop folk not liking her.
And that mob who think Rudd is no Dud.
Gillards intended path being tough and that seems about it is hurting every non conservative voter.
Any chance she is a Liberal plant?

Lexi, do you think it would be wise of Mr Abbott to announce what will essentially be unfunded policies, because uless you have been on another planet, you will have realized that WE HAVE NO MONEY, thanks in large to your believed labor.

I think the best approach is to go slow and steady, so we can first get a handle on exactly where we stand, because after all, if the worlds smartest man gave us a huge deficit, when he promised a surplus AT ANY COST REMEMBER, then he himself obviously has no real idea exactly where we are.

Wouldn't you agree?

Lexi my sweet, let me assure you if Abbott turns out to be even a quarter as bad as Gillard, he will find most of those here, & me in particular, hounding him even more unmercifully than Gillard.

He has offered himself as a savior, & he had better damn well be one, or else.

He won't get away with buying votes with lousy expensive policy, any more than we have been prepared to wear from Gillard.

Of course Abbott does have the fact that we know Turnbull is a dill, & a high percentage of LNP voters would not vote for him, reducing the chance of a successful challenge, but does not prevent it, so waffling will not be an acceptable option.

Belly,

The only people that "know" that Abbott is a dud are labor and the greens. The rest, which is most people are waking up to the reality that he is in perfect control of the agenda.

Both KRudd and Juliar have been destroyed whilst he was in opposition, and labor is stripped of any credibility. TA will be one of the best PMs in decades. Probably better than Hawke and Keating.

Hi Poirot,
I've got several
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/who-knows-pm-julia-gillard-is-under-investigation/story-e6frg6z6-1226630319702

http://www.news.com.au/national-news/awu-detectives-studying-gillard-interview/story-fncynjr2-1226650256224

http://www.news.com.au/national-news/pm-denies-awu-investigation-claims/story-fncynjr2-1226627400297

Ask yourself whether the Party would have allowed News and Fairfax, Michael Smith, Ben Fordham et al to continue to publish these stories implicating Gillard if they had any chance at all of getting an injunction? Particularly Michael Smith, who is not a large corporation, but an individual who has put it all on the line.

Ken Lay refused to deny it when asked a direct question. Police are careful not to implicate people as suspects if they are not, even ordinary people.

Rest assured she is in the frame.

Interesting that slater and gordon have "lost" their records, no? Also interesting that the AWU (Ludwig) made a big point of going to court to seek refunds of redundancy payments back in 1995, then quietly went back to tell the court he wasn't interested in chasing anyone in 1996. after he had already obtained his order. The AWU has also "lost" some files between then and now. What was the year Gillard stood unsuccessfully for the Senate? You don't have to look, it was 1996. A deal with the devil to keep Wilson's mouth shut by letting him keep the money and give Ludwig control of an up and coming ALP politician?

What's worth more than money to a fellow like Ludwig? Influence. What's the best influence to have? The kind that comes from having information your target doesn't want released.

Lexi, LNP policies will be the same as ALP ones in all important respects. Our economy is too delicately poised to risk anything significant, although they will fiddle at the edges for form's sake.

I hope they have some clever policy advice, because we are going to need good policy sooner rather than later to get us out from under the dependence on consumer spending that is hamstringing us.

As for "reforms", not all change is good and passing legislation is not the test of a successful government. I'd argue that in the case of the most recent Parliament there has been nothing to be proud of.

Rehctub I missed your bit about the LNP changing to Turnbull. I believe that is very doubtful, but it is Labors only hope.

The LNP could never win with Turnbull, as too many of their voters realized what a dill he is when he was all set to back Rudd & his carbon trading scheme.

That is what cost him the leadership, & would stop them winning with him as leader.

Careful, Antipeptic, you may have to migrate and live under a witness protection program :)

But thanks, that takes some guts.

Joe

Hi FOLKS...

Many thanks to all of you, who've very kindly contributed to this Topic.

LOUDMOUTH, made a very astute comment earlier. In part he stated, after the Elections and with a Labor loss, what the Party needs, before embarking upon any degree of restructuring or anything else for that matter, was to ensure they claimed some 'CLEAR AIR'! In order to achieve that, both Mr RUDD and Ms GILLARD, for the sake of the entire Party, should be encouraged to immediately resign. Resign from any and everything connected with Labor, in perpetuity !

The entire Party is completely awash with so much poison, massive unresolved recriminations, and mountains of allegations (including untested criminal matters), and the most serious of all, the anguish, disillusion and desperation, of tens of thousands of ultra-loyal rank and file Labor members, who are literally 'bleeding' at what they see these two are doing, to their much beloved Party

Therefore, for the overall benefit of the Labor brand, both of these totally dysfunctional people MUST depart, never to return to politics. In fact, to use a much quoted US phrase, they enjoy the same level of loathing, as that much despised fellow, Benedict Arnold, the often referred to traitor, named in early US history.

I note my friend HASBEEN has suggested, after both of them decide to leave politics altogether, they might be offered some academic post at a notable University ?

My only point, and I do believe HASBEEN might well agree with me; after these two have made such a monumental mess of our beloved country, what on earth could either of these two ex pollies teach, to anyone, on anything ?

Dear rehctub,

The only thing stopping Mr Abbott from having
the Coalition's policies costed is Mr Abbott.
He does after all have access to the Treasury.
However, one firstly has to have policies
to have them costed. Therein lies the problem.

Dear Hasbeen,

I guess it all depends on the type of country
you want to live in. Do you want a country
willing to invest in infrastructure that benefits
all Australians or do you want to generate
surpluses that are squandered for tax cuts and hand
outs to the already wealthy?

Do you want a country whose assets are sold off at
bargain basement prices into private hands and we're
forced to pay a premium to gain access to them again?

Do you believe that all children deserve the right to
the same educational standards and a chance at a
worthwhile future?

Do you want a society where the aged, poor, infirm,
disabled, are thrown on a scrap heap or do you
want a society that cares for those in need and supports
them to get back on their feet?

As for Mr Abbott not being willing to engage in bribes?
Independent Andrew Wilkie would disagree with you.
And I wonder what will come out of the litigation
pending with his "slush fund?"

Dear SM,

History will Judge our PMs. And, as Harold MacMillan
once stated, "Events old chap, tend to make idiots
of us all."

Dear Antiseptic,

As I wrote to Hasbeen. It all depends on what sort of
country you want to live in. To me, my choices are
clear.

Dear Joe, (Loudmouth),

Let your desires be ruled by reason.

O Sung Wu,

Thank you for your kind words.

On that other matter: my darling wife passed away nearly five years now, and it might as well be yesterday, the pain and grief never lessen. She was a fighter, a proud Aboriginal from the lower Lakes of the Murray. As the eldest of ten kids, she had to leave school at fifteen to work as a domestic servant, and finished her career as a senior lecturer, and acting head of SA's Indigenous Education Committee. I'm very proud that one of her articles was referred to by Noel Pearson in his essay 'Radical Hope'.

But getting by each day sine she went has been a bloody torture. As it happens, I've been, on and off since about 1997, typing up old documents frelated to Aboriginal policy, mainly from the nineteenth century - the Protector's letters (840-1907), Royal Commission reports, journals of one key missionary (600 pages), birth, death, marriage and school records from one community. A total of about five thousand pages so far.

It's kept me alive - and somebody may some day find some of it useful. I certainly think it's all been like digging in a series of gold-mines, little nuggets turn up every so often. I hope I can keep going, digging in one gold-mine or anogther, until I drop.

So if you can find something like that which really grabs you, which you hope might be useful for somebody, somewhere, some time in the future, then go for it, mate. Your lived experiences have not been for nothing, you have done things, seen things, you have advice that you can give to governments if they will listen.

[TBC]

[continued]

I used to work at a Sunday market, selling Vietnamese coffee. This old bloke used to shuffle around, and we used to talk. It eventually turned out he had been at Kokoda, and of course had some interesting things to say about Blamey. For thirty years, he had also been head of Adelaide's main abattoirs. Who would have known to look at him ? A real bloody hero, I was honored to speak to him.

Don't give up on us :)

Best wishes,

Joe

Lexi, my darling, my desires are not to be spoken of ;)

Love,

Joe

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

Aw, shucks!

Dear SM,

Just to get back to your statement that you
felt Tony Abbott will be the best PM that
this country has had in decades.
Here's a link that may clarify things for you:

http://www.independentaustralia.net/2013/politics/tony-abbott-as-prime-minister/

Evening to you LOUDMOUTH (Joe)...

And I'm whinging about the 'black dog' that keeps interfering with my life - what a feeble excuse and cop-out for my many inadequacies and weaknesses that apparently blot my character ?

By the sound of it you've not exactly enjoyed a cake walk yourself Joe with the loss of your dear wife...? But by all accounts you're honouring her memory by committing to paper her many achievements and other notable academic works she's produced during her too short a lifetime. You say even after a duration of five years you still miss her terribly, and it doesn't get any easier, despite all those many, well meaning reflections, those kind people keep on saying to you ?

The fact that you continue to transcribe those hundreds and hundreds of pages, honours her memory I believe, it's a fair indication of the love and devotion you have for her memory. Moreover it's a testament of her scholarship and immense knowledge of Aboriginal Affairs, that she's so adroitly accumulated over her short lifetime of learning. By her being honoured, by none other than Noel Pearson himself, probably the most influential person and spokesman on all things associated with Aboriginal matters. Actually, I've had the pleasure of meeting this extraordinary gentleman on several occasions over the years !

Sure you would miss her terribly Joe, but you too haven't let the grass grow under your own feet either ? Her passing seems to have motivated you to undertake an immense task of writing every single word and thought on the subject of early 'aboriginality'? In fact you've been steadfastly recording many of the early missionary reports ostensibly for a much larger and wider audience, for future times ?

As the yanks so quaintly put it, 'you're the man' Joe ! Please take real good care of yourself. They say 'time' is a great healer ? I don't really know who 'they' are ? Except 'they're' very frequently quoted eh ?

Thanks Joe.

Thanks to you, O Sung Wu, what you write is so comforting, even if it brings some tears.

I dips me lid to you, mate, keep shining.

Joe

...That is what cost him the leadership, & would stop them winning with him as leader

Yes hasbeen, that did cost him his leadership, however, it was by only ONE VOTE and, the voters as you mentioned had no say, as it was an in house vote.

For the record, I am not in favor of any carbon tax on generators, as they are only providing for us, the users.

So it is the user who should pay a tax, if any.

Lexi, there would not be one person in the country who wouldn't want exactly what you mention, but, the problem is, we have no money left.

More importantly, we did spend the money, hundreds of billions in fact, the trouble is, IT HAS BEEN WASTED.

So now we are trying to implement the likes of the NBN, Gonski and the NDIS all without money.

Now as for us wanting a surplus, I have two suggestions for you.

1. Go back through my posting history and you will see that I was always against a surplus, as I saw what was coming.

In fact, after the 07 election I said that with the uncertain times approaching, the last thing you want to do is attack IR laws, as this would lead to a loss in confidence.

Of cause, my mate Belly laughed at me.

I bet he's not laughing now, although I doubt he would admit it.

2. It was your beloved Mr Swan that wanted a surplus, you remember, AT ANY COST, so perhaps rather than preaching to us, you would be better served preaching to your beloved labor.

While you're there, perhaps you can find out why they wasted so much and achieved so little in return.

As I have said before, the people's experiment to switch to labor has been a very, very costly mistake, as here we are, in worse shape than we were, a bleak outlook and a 400 BILLION DOLLAR debt to boot.

What an appalling record they have achieved in less than six years.

Yet you still offer your unconditional support.

Unbelievable!

The thread has proved currently politics is the subject most want to talk about.
It too, if you look, shows just how many differing views we have, and that in our own biased ways, we do not let truth sway us.
First Anti I got it wrong, Gillard is still under investigation.
Yipee! my bias showing?
We know of this mornings polls.
Rechtub has the financial hick cups! dashing about with the we will all be ruined and broke stuff.
Calm down bloke, Howard knew the way, Abbott will tax us and cut services fill the pot and you will complain about that.
What stuns me, is the thought if Rudd left the house now Gillard could lift her polling.
Are we content to be that wrong?
Rudd actually, is being used by a host of yesterday,s men and women to wipe the blood from their hands and *to silly to think about*
Take the blame after the traumatic event come September instead of them.
They, by their dredging up this junk prove my party needs reforms.
For such an IQ test first step and new chain for their Dogs, if it leaves home the average IQ will drop 10 points in such homes.
Gillard may end in prison? I hear that song what a wonderful world, no early parole please!~

Belly, I doubt she'll go to jail, but I'm positive that the Victoria Police Major Fraud Squad are doing all they can to get her convicted of knowingly aiding the commission of the fraud against the AWU, Thiess, Fluor Daniel etc.

She set up the vehicle for that fraud, she gave the WA corporate affairs Commission fraudulent information to induce them to register that vehicle after they initially refused, she participated in the purchase of a house with the proceeds for her married boyfriend Wilson, she prepared and signed and backdated a power of attorney in Victoria for Blewitt to sign a couple of weeks later which was used to obtain a mortgage from Slater and Gordon to buy that property, she received cash from Wilson and had work done on her own house that was paid for out of AWU funds.

She's a fraudster and a liar who I believe has some serious mental and emotional issues. My guess is psychopathic personality disorder. She really believes she can do anything and get away with it and her only interest in other people is in how to use them. Her "feminism" and "socialism" are simply tools to manipulate others and to make herself appear acceptably socially motivated.

It is often mentioned that she is "charming" in person, which is a common trait of psychopaths. However, when she is speaking in public she is lost because she has no convictions of her own to guide her. Her "charm" is no more than a feeding back of the other person's reactions and when she can't see her audience she cannot do that, so she becomes wooden and emotionally flat.

She has never had a live-in relationship with a man (employees like Mathieson don't count), but has had several affairs with married men. For her the manipulation of people to do things that they wouldn't do otherwise is an end, not a means.

The sooner she is gone, the better. whatever Abbott may be, he has genuine principles and a genuine interest in his social responsibilities. His religion is a sideshow politically.

Hi Antiseptic,

Thank you for that analysis - I have suspected that Rudd was a psychopath, with megalomaniac tendencies, and I'm now persuaded that Gillard may be one too, but with nothing but the lowest, most opportunist tendencies.

Maybe there isn't just one sort of psychopath, but a very broad spectrum of them ? I've certainly worked with a few, and like you say, they can be charming. Watching 'The Time of Our Lives' last night, I was struck by that young counsellor's uncannily snaky behaviour - I'd be watching my back if I was Justine Clark's character. A brilliant series !

Cheers,

Joe

Lexi,

I see you have found another tiny far left political mouthpiece/blog.

Why should a polemic by an author whose sole contribution is polemics against Abbott, clarify anything for me? Especially when the article is bereft of facts, and relies solely on rumour and the author's active imagination. Quoting Rehctub or runner is equally valid.

The only point of significance that the author picked up is that the coalition's strategy has switched from the beginning of the parliamentary period where the strategy is to attack and expose the errors in the government's policies, to the election period where the point is to present an alternative government. This he has done effectively, especially with the help of Juliar's incompetence

Rudd is not in the same paddock as Gillard.
He is a better man for that.
And the people agree, have no doubt he would have cut our great losses.
And Rudd is now unlikely to run again, ever. here.
But my party, intent on trying to hide its great wrong, to him and our party *Gillard* WILL CONTINUE TO BLAME THE VICTIMS NOT THEM SELVES.
Yet hopefully for the last time ever, power brokers inside and out of my party have smashed the party for self satisfaction, to avoid the need to say we got it wrong.
So yes o sung wo, it is both who see ALP election, loss as always bar recent Victorian one, as huge loss.
Gillard could sprout wings sing like an angel, Abbott horns and look like the Devil, Australia has made up its mind, Labor has been sacrificed by its own.
Reforms must include, right to vote against the party, party membership to pick candidates, not would be party ownership.
Plans to move Sussex Street are a start, but only if it and its slugs are transfered to south America.
Policy,s forums and important matters not to remain property of power brokers and every effort to be made to stop union control of party.

Spot on, Belly, you're the Henry Lawson of 2013 !

Although I hope you stay off the grog ;) My grandfather knew and loved him, they lived near each other at The Rocks for a time.

Thank you, mate.

Joe

In the strangest way, this hung Parliament, and a few who should be hung, is going to be the tonic Labor has needed.
If after the crash, we do not shatter and break apart we will get our reforms.
And rid of many who never should have put a foot in parliament as other than tourists.
We too will find our best the future talent gone, killed off by a storm called Gillard.
After the return to sanity and Rudd is squashed under her and union boots, we will see a small lift as the election nears, in Labor polling.
Not victory and not down to Gillard.
Despite her, some will stick just and only just,because of Abbott.
I however would not bet on my generation ever seeing another Federal ALP government in our life time.
And if it is only a tarted up white wash of this days party it would only be a cruel fake in any case.
Be content my ALP we are better suffering in our enemy's hands than our own sides.
Caucus supports Gillard?
Never believe it, it is a lie .
Know however caucus acts to protect them selves to avoid ownership of knifing Rudd and know they are unaware of the term *time for all good men to come to the aid of the party*

Belly,

Maybe the economic and social changes over the past fifty years or more have inevitably 'driven' huge sections of the Anglo-Australian ex-working-class towards the conventional right - even when I started working in factories, Beaurepaires, Metters, Arnotts, in 1965, I was often the only Anglo there besides the leading hand or foreman. So for fifty years, the children of the working-class have been moving up and out, and the Labor base has been transformed.

And those populations have almost fallen, with no effort required, into the arms of the Libs, while the unions and Labor hacks have been oblivious to those fundamental social changes.

In that sense, Marx certainly got it wrong that the working-class would be increasingly immiserated, poorer each generation. Even he should have been able to see, even in his day, that industrial capitalism was constantly developing what he called the forces of production and a corollary of that process was bound to be the contantly increasing need for more qualified, educated people in the workforce.

This process was even happening out in the colonies in Africa and elsewhere, that capitalism needed more and more skilled people, lower-level bureaucrats even, but more and more of them, at higher and higher levels. Hence school systems across British Africa - in fact, soon denough, two systems, one for higher-level officials, one for the masses who needed basic literacy up to Grade 4 level: 'culturally-adapted education', they called it, racist systems through and through.

And those social changes in Australia are accelerating: the basic rationale for the Labor Party is being left further and further behind. Tradesmen become independent contractors, and move to vote Liberal. It all just drops into the Libs' arms, no effort needed.

So how to re-build a new party ? A New Party ? Hopefully, in our lifetime ?

Cheers,

Joe

Belly Rudd is the bloke who destroyed our boarder protection. That is costing us billions.

He believes in a big Australia.

Those 2 alone rule him out of consideration for any high Office.

He has done nothing but try to destroy your party, just for vindictive satisfaction. Still not enough?

Every thing he touched turned into a disaster.

How much more do you want before you say he is a dud, & better shipped to anywhere but our parliament, let alone lead it.

Dear rehctub,

I was able to watch "Question-Time" in Parliament
today and after an hour of watching
the performances of the Opposition's Front-Benchers
fully confirmed to me all of my previous fears
about these people. "Mr Point of Order" was in full
swing, as were the others with the usual rhetoric.
It made me realise
that they follow the old adage that "condemnation
is easier than thinking." It scares the heck out of me
to think that these people hope to be the government
after September. Unbelievable!

Dear SM,

I keep expecting something more from you Sir.
Unfortunately you simply perform true to form.
Nothing to see here. So I shall move on.

Dear Hasbeen,

I just want to correct you.
It wasn't Mr Rudd who destroyed our "border protection."
It was the Opposition. They voted against the recommendations
of the Australian Defence Force and others on the expert
panel - which the
government wanted to implement in its entirety in solving
the border protection issue. The Opposition voted against
it. Now the Opposition is saying that they will "tow
the boats back," again, going against the strong advice
of the ADF - which has said it will not only not work, but
it will endanger Australian lives.

Put the blame where it rightly belongs - on the Opposition!

Lexi my sweet, the opposition is in the minority in parliament, or they would be the government.

They can't stop any government motion. It requires some part of the governments majority to vote against it to stop any motion passing.

If you are talking about the "Singapore solution", where we were to take 4000 of theirs, in exchange for 800 illegals, I'm glad someone voted that foolishness down.

At current rate of 100 a day, 700 a week it is bloody disastrous, but imagine an ongoing 4000 for 800, & we would have to give them Tasmania to live in.

Come to think of it, that just might be the answer, as long as we didn't have to continue funding the apple isle, giving it to the boat people could be a win win all round.

Regardless of all that, it was our dumb Rudd who dismantled a successful system, & the bludger still smiles at us like the cat that swallowed the canary.

Hasbeen,

Yeah, if Rudd was involved in the tiniest way in, say, flood relief, he would 'casually' appear on camera with a bloody oar under his arm. What a poseur.

Gday Joe,
I think you're wrong about Rudd. He's certainly obsessive, but I think he, unlike Gillard, is closely attached to the community and feels his responsibility very keenly. In my view, from the outside looking in, as PM he was a little overwhelmed by that sense of responsibility, particularly since he was well aware that the ALP caucus would try to undermine anything good he might do in order to shore up their narrow sectional support.

Rudd's background is very different to Gillard's. His young life was significantly disrupted by the death of his father, making him "the man of the house" at a young age. I think he internalised that experience and it has been a key aspect of his makeup ever since. His commitment to doing the best he possibly can in whatever job he has is obvious and when it came up against the entrenched forces of factionalism, which he was no part of, it manifested in obsessive micro-management. It's also no surprise that those factional forces, with their power ignored, should seek to replace him with someone who they controlled.

I would have liked to see Rudd as PM in a more supportive, cohesive team, with the scum who have made themselves wealthy by exploiting the need of workers to be represented sent packing. Sadly, as a visit to any sewerage plant will show, the scum that floats on top is the hardest to dispose of.

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/best-of-enemies-labor-relives-its-great-depression-20130624-2osrt.html
Loudmouth Joe, you speak the truth, but while so very true Labors current problem stems from Rudd,s dismissal, and those who did it.
Hasbeen maybe in your eyes that would kill his chances, do not let our personal biases take our eyes off the peoples thoughts/polling.
Back to Joe, you will as I do see the seeds of your comment in todays Labor, and in every Labor government we ever had state or federal.
Would you however be content to, forever, live under a mix of Conservative/Liberal/And Nationals who are in some cases hill billy,s and others red necks?
This government and past Federal Labor ones bought reforms,worth while ones, but not to its self.
I have no wish to taint unions, some are the best insurance a worker can buy for lifestyle income and work place safety.
Some forget , truly, servicing their members comes before propping up a person Australia has long ago rejected.
We must not let them forget *it is them not Rudd* who deliver our defeat to Abbott on a plate.
Last Joe Unions drove the better living standards we have, some took the gains but not the pain.
It always is workers and unionists who install Liberal governments.
Rudd,s axeing sets the scene for pain inflicted by our own movements, To be felt the hardest by those who support the ALP and Unions

Hasbeen you need more thought before trying to put Lexi down*Singapore is not part of Malaysia*
Some difficulty with threats of war, by Indonesia stopped it becoming so.
Joe fully agree and just fully re read your post.
Every word I write is in search and demand for New Labor.
A party that hangs its wrongs out to dry, public condemnation of our past *solidarity forever* gutless covering up for pedophiles and criminals such as NSW filth, HSU, any one taking our good name.
We still, tell our people not to waste time on past and present things like that, but charge the other side loudly when they slip up.
*IF UNIONS CAN GET NO MORE THAN 22%* to join them how can they by saying who will lead our nation and party.
13/9/13 will indeed be an unlucky day the party with the best policy,s confined to the other side of the house.
And those who put us there refusing to take the blame, gutless!

Anti, if Rudd was so connected to the people, as you suggest, he would be working for nothing, and donating his entire income to the public purse, because he doesn't need the money and, because after all, it was he who created the worst mess of all, our border invaders.

Lexi, you're ability to ignore the real facts amazes me on the one hand, yet confirms my thoughts that true labor lovers can see no wrong in their party.

You see, what you blame the libs for, is a situation that would not have occurred had Rudd not done what he had done.

I can write your script for the next three years if you like, it will go something like this.

"What a failure Mr Abbott is, he can't even get these great labor reforms up and running, like Gonski and the NDIS, despite labor's great success in passing this ground breaking legislation."

"all he ever talks about is the lack of funds thanks to the past six years of labor miss management"

Even as we speak, labor are trying to force even more legislation through the house, knowing full well they we don't have the money to fund what they have already passed.

Belly, my concerns are not for the wealthy, as corporate Australia has very low debt, but it's the government that is broke, amd it's the government that has to look after all those who don't have the means to take care of themselves. The masses.

Rehctub, do you regard yourself as "connected to the people"?

What markup do you put on your meat?

Lexi,

The hypocrisy, of your comment is breath taking. Here you are advocating that unaccompanied children be sent to Malaysia with no guarantee of safety, and are at risk of being attacked and abused.

Your posts are also bordering on the delusional. The so called "expert" panel was put in place to help reduce the strong pull factor of KRudd's on shore processing solution. Which when KRudd dismantled the pacific solution both Labor and the Greens denied existed against the advice of their own immigration department.

In 2007 there had been 5 years with only about one or two boats arriving a year with an average of less than 100 illegals, and only 4 people in detention. Now we have more than this every day, with about 800 people arriving a week (which would kill the Malaysian solution).

This border control problem was entirely of Labor's making, and trying to shift blame because Juliar couldn't get her coalition partners to back her shonky scheme is farcical.

I watched "Q and A," last night and it
simply confirmed for me that the only
reason Mr Abbott has not yet been kicked
out as the leader of the Opposition is
due to the fact of the media concocting
stories about the Gillard government and
fabricating quotes attributed to anonymous
sources. Anyone of any intelligence can see
through that. And is simply not buying it.

The Opposition has tried whichever way it can
to get rid of Gillard. They haven't succeeded.
And their latest charade of "We'll tow the boats
back," is an interesting one.

"Q and A," will be filmed from Jakarta next
Thursday evening (9.30pm) with an Indonesian
and Australian audience. It should make for
interesting viewing.

In the meantime Shadow Minister you can keep
on with your usual rhetoric. You have nothing
else on offer. And I'm not interested in it.

Lexi, my sweet, any one who gets any information from their ABC is bound to be misinformed.

Antiseptic, boy are you kind, & deluded I'm afraid.

I watched Rudd undermining Beasley on their ABC for months in QLD. It was not too difficult to see a slimy, conniving act, presenting a fabricated man.

I see an arrogant fool of a man, with no idea of what he is doing, except he is doing it for no one but himself.

His Copenhagen effort, hellishly expensive on us, was nothing but his application for a high UN post. At no time was there ever any consideration of what would be good for Oz, just a pandering effort to ingratiate himself with the would be rulers of the world.

I can not think of anyone I have ever despised more, & am sure I will never find one.

Sorry Rechtub I do not consider much you post as informed comment.
Lexi I too watched Q and A, it is a habit to watch it repeated today.
Could not force myself to watch the whole thing again.
Self righteous fools sent tweets questioning the polls, no intelegent person could do that.
It is clear a reverse sexism was on show the dear old bird who wrote that book, or is she just trying to sell more copy's?
See men yes true, are called names if they share mine and Richos thoughts, not based on Gillards sex but her actions.
Truth over ride,s all our biases, Richo was and is well informed and a very good minister.
Before some one else does I will admit, he went out under a scandal involving prostitutes.
Yet bank on it he remains one of our very best number crunchers and feel the air people.
The plaintive charges against those working their guts out to save our party.
The claims of anti woman/sexism , ignore willfully Gillards often used anti male habits.
In the end woman/man/God or Devil SHE CAN NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES WIN AN ELECTION.
Those of us who love the party should not be slandered because they try to avoid the Gillard fox trot in to Lake Burly Grifin

Lexi,

Your paranoia is showing.

"the fact of the media concocting stories about the Gillard government and fabricating quotes attributed to anonymous sources. Anyone of any intelligence can see through that."

Considering that different news organisations are all coming up with the same information from their confidential sources, even the ones not associated with News Corp, anyone with an IQ more than a squirrel would realise that they are not all lying.

It looks as though Juliar might well hold onto the leadership and steer Labor to a record defeat. A trophy to sit with record debt, and record illegal immigration.

Gentlemen,

I'd like to quote from a recent
link that I've just come across on the web
that summarises the current political
situation:

The author states "the Coalition has had
a campaign of destruction, involving lies,
fear mongering and unproven allegations to
smear members and supporters of the government."

As we know, "It's been written that Abbott has
been a most successful Opposition leader.
By that, it is meant that his opposition to almost
everything and his unproven smear campaign has
held the government back in the opinion polls."

Does Mr Abbott deserve the opinion poll rating he's
been given? asks the author. "I would have enormous
respect for an Opposition leader who played a clean
game. Who challenged a government's policies and
pointed out their flaws, who provided alternative
policies that won broad support. Abbott has not played
that kind of game and yet he's got a higher score in
the polls. Something is wrong here and there must be
consequences."

Of course the Main Stream Media (MSM), shock jock fodder,
and even comedy shows have contributed greatly.

We're now told that nasty, negative, nay saying, Mr Abbott
has become, nice Mr Abbott, in the dark blue suit, white shirt,
blue tie. This, as the author points out should be a
WTF moment? Can this chameleon be trusted?

"For almost three years Abbott has used a wrecking ball
strategy designed to bring down the government as quickly
as possible. It has been a campaign not very different
to the tactics Mr Abbott used to dominate and destroy the student
union at Sydney University, supposedly riddled with
communists. Mr Abbott has failed. The government is still
there, damaged but still afloat."

"Mr Abbott is rewarded with a higher position in the
opinion polls than the PM, who in the meantime has
soldiered on, introducing some world first legislation, and
social reforms."

Something is indeed wrong, and it will become clear after
September 14th and as the author points out, there will
be consequences to follow, especially for the creators
of these polls - the Main-Stream-Media (MSM).

Dear Hasbeen,

I prefer to listen to Tony Jones, Jonathan Holmes,
Barrie Cassidy, Kerry O'Brien, Ann Summers,
just to name a few, to Andrew Bolt, Alan Jones,
Piers Achermann, Gerard Henderson, et al.
I prefer facts to media beat-ups and objective
opinions to lies, fear-mongering, and unproven
allegations and smear tactics.
But I understand that not everyone does.

To each his/her own.

It will be a bad day if Abbott and his mob get into power in Canberra because they will take away all the help and assistance the Labour Party gives the people who are not very rich, and have to pay rent and other expences. Also because the world is such a mess many of the helpless boat people will risk everything to try to sail to this huge country (and there is plenty of room for millions of more people here!!) for a much safer and much better life.

There is nothing wrong with the Prime Minister or her cabinit or anyone in the Labour Party, except Rudd the Dudd. I do feel sorry that he was dumpted, but he acted like a Diktator, and in a free country like beautiful Australia there is no place for a Diktator weather they are from the Labour or the Liberal Partys. I think they might lose maybe and if they do lose it will be because of all the trouble that Rudd the Dudd has, and is causing, I think?

I don't get some people who write in this column like Lexi and other people. Lexi said he doesn't like listening to media beatups, yet he and some other people are always putting up sites or links or quotes from all the media outlets? We read the Courier Mail, and I reckon it's a pretty good paper and gives all the Partys a good go? After all, where else do we get the accurate news if we don't look at TV or read the news papers? I will admit the ads on TV drive our daughter in law mad, me I just sleep thru them all.

I had no choice but to return to mention again that Q and A episode.
First however show me who knew Rudd was as described in the two posts above mine, lets stick to this.
The actions of those who knifed him out way any fault he had.
QxA well Matt Thislwaite did well n that program, he never answered a question , that is his job.
He is a good bloke, but lets see how he shows me at least, why the party needs reform.
Matt had a seat in Federal Parliament pulled from under him.
He a long term and loyal member, was pushed aside by Latham, the seat given to, a star candidate, good singer .
our current education minister, who first had to join the Labor party.
Matt supported his and my ex boss, Bill Shorten, all are AWU members.
Richo? long before we took back government, only to let it slip at our factions hands.
Was one of our very best,my question is.
*If I and others feel betrayed are we to remain silent*? to do what our tormentors never did? put party first*
SOLIDARITY IS A LIE, ONE THAT BETRAYS BY IGNORING WRONGS, DOES GREAT DAMAGE TO MY PARTY.

Here's something for those who can think instead of
merely condeming:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/21/australians-julia-gillard

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/if-he-will-step-up-the-pms-job-is-likely-his-20130625-2ovcb.html
And here Lexi is one for you.
Dare I say it may make you think?
It is not from a leftist pen, not from a red neck one.
In fact it is from middle Australia.
No one , on any side, can tell those who think differently to think again.
Only history will know who was right and who was wrong.
As sure as we swim with joy, in the refreshing water of polling, when they are with us.
It is blindness to combat them when we disagree with them.
If on Friday Gillard walks out of parliament as PM we will know Labor has con-seeded defeat.

The fix is already in, Belly. The Unions have already picked their winner and the poor bl00dy worker isn't her.

Care to place a small wager on my prediction of the future ALP from a few days ago? I'm getting more certain by the day.

Gillard's role, having failed to win rusted-on male ALP support, shifted a few months ago to alienating it as much as she could, so that it would create as many vacancies as possible and destroy the power base of the blue-collar Unions. That clears the way for her Emily's Listers to take over and the white-collar, middle-class, progressive female unions to usurp the blue-collar, working-class, socially conservative male unions to be removed as an impediment to women's domination of the Party room.

Swan basically confirmed it for me yesterday when he made what passes for an economic statement from him. He went out of his way to say that service industries, not mining, not manufacturing, not construction are the future of Australia and claimed that they are now 80% of the Australian economy.

Anti, glad you asked about mark ups, hope I don't bore you.

I started my first shop in 89, my sales were $8400 per week, my margin was 33%, so my mark up was 50%.

I netted just shy of $2000 per week after all expenses.

Huge money back then.

My last shop was in 2010, my sales were $15,000 per week, my margin was 50% so my mark up was 100%.

I netted about the same.

Very small return these days, especially given the risk involved and the exposure that goes with it.

The rest, some $6500 per week, paid for in full by the consumer, went in additional expenses.

Now, there are shop around that still net in the low 30's, but instead of a turnover of under $10K, they need to turnover at least $80K, just to survive.

It's all due to expenses.

Lexi, Q&A will be interesting, especially following the allegations about Indo police involvement.

Now may I suggest, that while you are watching that show, one I enjoy as well, just keep in your mind just why our borders are in such a mess and, that any measure taken or suggested is as a direct result of the actions of one K Rudd and his crusaders.

He and labor should never ever be forgiven for the debacle they have created, where by they took a proven working system and turned it on it's head.

Rehctub, thanks for the informative post, but I can't see the part about how you donated all your income to charity.

Does that mean you don't feel connected to the community?

Hasbeen, thanks for your kind comments on the previous page. I haven't been called anything as complimentary as "deluded" in ages.

Lexi, one can only imagine the additional damage Gillard would have cause, had Abbott not stood in her way, as one simply has to look at labor's track record, not of passing legislation, for which you are so so proud of, but of implementing same..

The best part about the past three odd years is that not only has Gillard hung herself, but she has been able to drag those so called independents with her, a move that I am grateful for.

As I've said often, they were simply given enough rope, and they used it.

Just a pitty it cost us $400 BILLION along the way.

Belly, sorry for being il informed mate, but it's a talent il have to live with I guess.

Then you wrote this...
*If I and others feel betrayed are we to remain silent*? to do what our tormentors never did? put party first*
SOLIDARITY IS A LIE, ONE THAT BETRAYS BY IGNORING WRONGS, DOES GREAT DAMAGE TO MY PARTY.

Yet you will still offer your support.

I am afraid old mate that YOUR labor party is dead, so it's time you moved on.

Shame about the tall poppie bit Anti.

Yes, I did do quite well, most of the time.

Along the way I created in excess of 300 jobs, educated two great kids, built an assett base that HOPEFULLY will mean my wife and I won't be a burden on the tax payer and, I donated in excess of a quarter of a million dollars to worthwhile local events over my 23 odd years.

That's not counting the half million or so that WAS STOLEN along the way, as is unfortunately often the case with cash businesses.

Sorry for working hard and taking risks!

Anti yes we both know some men do not want any woman to lead us in politics.
That may well be not nice, but it is true, so we must in polling see it.
My thoughts on Gillard are not about her sex.
I met her twice and she left me cold.
Here in OLO I tripped over my own boots, in saying while I never trusted he, FORGIVE! she would govern well, got that wrong.
Unions? mate they held the knife! they necked Rudd, and the ALP.
They, even now, support the lass.
Tomorrow, at 9am unless my party is totally insane, Rudd will be returned.
Such has Gillard/Dillards inability to sell her message, Rudd will tower above Abbott in just weeks.
Then?
Just maybe Turnbull will roll Abbott.
But we will get a verbal boot in the bottom for our views but it will be a long time before another woman leads this country.

This says it all.

http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2013/06/25/1226669/697766-130626-leak.jpg

You are a good person the way you work so hard and bring up 2 kids and build Airport Hangers for Airlines Company. As well as making up all those jobs for other people also Rehctub!

You say you had a lot of money stolen from you when you were in business? You did tell the police? Though the police are rotten in Queensland, and you would not have got your money returned to you for sure. I really do admire you though for all those many jobs and opportunities you provided for 300 people amazing really.

What's the bet that Rudd is back in the top job by tomorrow night?

(Feels different this time - much more discipline from the Rudd camp)

Hi Poirot,

Interesting hypothesis: if it came to pass, would the Independents back him ? If not, then it's all over, red rover.

Would every former Gillard supporter back him in government, Emerson, Conroy, Swan, i.e. to satisfy the stringent conditions that the G-G would be told by Her Upstairs to demand of an effective government ? In other words, could a Rudd government govern ?

I think we're in for a very quick election if Gillard is overthrown.

I suspect that that won't happen. Gillard will lead the Labor Party to its worst defeat ever, by far. Whatever rises from the ashes in a decade or so - a non-class-based party to the Left of the Liberals - will be a different party, with a different social base.

And by then, both Rudd and Gillard will be distant, bitter memories. But I'll miss my local member, Steve Georganas, he has always seemed a really decent bloke. I might even campaign for him ;)

Now certainly is the time to come to the aid of the party.

Joe

It's funny how the feminist line is suddenly how Julia is hated because she's female, and I had actually fallen for the repetition on that until Jacqueline Maley reminded me that Gillard was actually popular to begin with. It's only since people have seen how she has performed as a PM she is so disliked. I don't feel she ever recovered form the Real Julia myself. I mean people can accept a pollie saying don't believe what I say until you see it in writing, that sounds stupidly honest, but saying I've been pretending to be someone else now this is really me is a bit much to take.

In the end the ALP is stuffed. As usual you can relate life to cricket. I don't see KRudd as talented as Boof Lehman though.

Maybe if we had a PM called Boof, we could all rally behind him.

It will take about 4.2 weeks for everyone to remember (except for the nutter QLDers of course), what a dip sh1t Rudd actually was. And let me just say this...

They should have sorted out their leadership business a bit earlier me thinks. The public, especially the NSW public will not elect another Labor government until they actually see a cohesive unit. NSW Labor, aka The Rabble, have nothing on these lot.

So, what a wonderful choice we have us Aussies; Programmatic Specificity vs Stop the Boats!

Here's to 3 months of Working Families! I cant wait for the Libs to rerun all that footage of Swan and co slamming Rudd's character from the last leadership bid, oh, sorry the second to last, the one where Rudd actually had the balls to stand.

Maybe gthere's a lesson here:

That a government can'tsurvie if:

* it overthrows one leader, with a small but solid faction behind him, and then

* relies on a handful of Independents to form a bare-majority government under another leader, i.e. if it can't form a government in its own right.

Of course, it might be in even more trouble if

* one of its members is caught rorting union funds to pay for prostitutes.

One does not have to posit a 'blue-tie conspiracy'. But if Gillard wants to lose even more votes, she could push that one. Oh, then get up a group called, not 'Men for Gillard', but 'Women for Gillard'.

Dumb, dumb 457 spin.

Rehctub, a couple of days ago:"Anti, if Rudd was so connected to the people, as you suggest, he would be working for nothing, and donating his entire income to the public purse,"

Rehctub, today:"Yes, I did do quite well, most of the time."I donated in excess of a quarter of a million dollars to worthwhile local events over my 23 odd years."

I guess you're not very connected to the community. Or perhaps you just speak through your bum out of habit.

Belly, Gillard to win, Rudd to quit politics, announcement during the Origin, probably at a point when one team is just about to score.

Bingo! Every potential ALP voter supremely p1ssed off at the ALP, both for "canning Rudd" (except he's in on the gag) except the progressives, who are chuffed and weren't watching footy anyway.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/nrl/record-television-viewing-audience-expected-for-state-of-origin-ii-in-brisbane/story-fni3fqyp-1226668528769

Headlines on Friday about new poll showing ALP support down to 20%. Puff pieces from Anne Summers et al on Saturday about how tough Gillard is and what a shame that horrible Rudd couldn't leave her alone.

ALP loses more than half its seats on 14/9. Huge influx of women to the party by the end of September. Party conference decides to change the proportionality of union caucus votes. Howes quits AWU and gets plum ILO job or similar. Ludwig retires. Gillard goes overseas to job with UNIFEM and has to be extradicted to be charged over AWU-WRA. Shorten gets treasury, Swan gets some minor job he's capable of. At 2016 election majority of ALP candidates are women from white collar backgrounds. By the time the LNP is finally kicked out, perhaps around 2022 or 2025, all ALP candidates are such women.

McTernan goes away with a bonus and satisfaction at a job well done.

Yes, lots of speculation, but I've already given my reasons for holding this view. Can you show me why you think I'm wrong?

Oh yeah, forgot to mention one more thing. Ingeus announced as exclusive provider of re-training and employment services to ACTU and all affiliated unions sometime in 2014.

Good evening to all of you, who've been kind enough to contribute to this Topic. By the sound of all the speculation and rumours that are emanating out of Canberra this afternoon, there may well be a change of the Labor leadership as early as later on this evening ?

For my part, I suppose I should again remind you all ('fess up' if you like),that as the individual who inadvisably should be condemned as the originator of such a contentious Topic, given the critical immediacy of what's occurring at this moment in the Nation's Capital.

That said, thank you all for being so terrific and supporting the several Topics I've introduced on the Forum. I've going to have a rest and leave both OLO and the Forum, due entirely to my 'black', canine companion. Thank you.

I'll give anyone 100:1 who wants to back Rudd. GY can put you in touch with me after you lose.

Wow!
glad nobody took up the bet...

I guess the idea of losing power was just too much for some.

Interesting times.

Hi Antieptic,

So I suppose a September 14 election is off. The question now is - will Rudd try to take as long as constitutionally possible to prepare for an election, i.e. go late - or go early ?

I think we could be in for even longer campaign than we thought. Christ help us.

Early October. But I;m not silly enough to bet anybody 100:1 on it ;)

Joe

Perhaps August 24th.

Gday Joe,
I'd be fascinated to know how the vote went. I'm sure that my analysis of Gillard's plan is correct. Rudd must have made someone a better offer, or they negotiated one with the white collar unions. Perhaps Joe de Bruyn, of the Shoppies?

Or perhaps Shorten decided that he doesn't really care whether she brings down Ludwig when the cops catch up with her, because he has his wife and mother-in-laws impeccable feminist credentials to give him a leg up with the white collar unions. I wonder how much of the time spent in organising the spill was because of Shorten doing deals with those unions?

It's instructive that Joe Ludwig (Bill's son) has quit, but Shorten hasn't...

Just read in the SMH it was Shorten. In the end he must have worked out that there wasn't much left for him in the support of the AWU.

Interesting times ahead for Howes and Ludwig.

Yes the man is back, will not waste much ti,me on the obvious but many said tonight *we got it wrong*
Refreshing policy,s changes and not quite new but more impressive Ministers coming to.
Watch the polls and tell me tonight did not have to happen.
Shame NSW is not playing well [half time] would have loved two wins in one night.
Watch closely, I truly believe Tony Abbott is no sure thing to lead his party to the election.
Rudd will see Abbott,s polling reversed partly that polling came about because like it or not Gillard was on the nose very badly so.
Her career need not have ended, she without that over confident challenge may have been around for a decade with her interest in education.
My day is golden.

Out of the frying pan into the fire.

At least now we can vote him out once & for all. The peanut's ego will not survive the public chucking him out.

What's the bet that this will lift Labor by no more than 4 % in the polls ? 34 % primary vote, 46: 54 two-party-preferred, in two weeks' time ?

Just a little food for thought....

Reading a tweet by Mike Carlton, which says...."If Rudd can't get the support of the independents tomorrow, the GG will invite Abbott to form a govt."

Well Poirot after all the conniving, cheating, lying & vicious infighting, that really would be poetic justice.

.....Yes, lots of speculation, but I've already given my reasons for holding this view. Can you show me why you think I'm wrong?

Yes Anti, it's called THE NEWS!

....I guess you're not very connected to the community. Or perhaps you just speak through your bum out of habit.

Please explain!

Poirot, those so called independents are all talk no action, proof of such by the way Wilki allowed Gillard to shaft him.

Besides, they don't care, because they are running away. Well at least two of them so far.

Rudd will boost the polls, but at the same time the new tact from Abbott will be to continually remind the people of Rudds boat people brain fart.

But, I'm with Belly here, as I think this may just see Turnbul become libs leader again.

Oh, well done rehctub, you pulled your head out just in time to see what had already happened.

"please explain", you say? Please read.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/shorten-forced-to-swing-the-axe-20130626-2oxln.html
Well refreshing anti! you took a risk, my sin was betting and I would have broke you if I saw that post.
A little inside info, not from any connection to todays , but yesterdays close contacts I no longer have.
AWU had the blood on its hands, I love that union.
Inside the house Swan Shorten are life members.
Ludwig is the son of the unions grandfather and powerful man, Bill.
I think Bill,you work out what one, bought Rudd down.
If you do not want Abbott to win be happy.
He may even be replaced because of last night.
If as I do you love Labor be very happy, last night broke the factions back, and heart.
Anti you, along with many, will see a better fairer more intent on winning ALP.

Belly,

I suppose, in the final analysis, if sticking to a rigid factional decision sees you go whirling down the political gurgler and land on your butts out of government - then I think it was an intelligent decision to finally go with Rudd.

I well remember just "knowing" that Howard was going to lose in 2007. The same inevitability hung over Labor under Gillard.

Still an uphill job for Labor, but perhaps not quite as steep.

Go early or go late ?

A sane person, a realist, would say to himself, go early before the bloom wears off.

But what would as narcissist or a fantasist do ? Expect to bask in the sunshine of the people's adulation as long as possible.

I'm betting he'll go late.

Joe

http://www.news.com.au/national-news/federal-election/union-leader-paul-howes-now-at-odds-with-bill-shorten-for-backing-kevin-rudd-in-labor-leadership-ballot/story-fnho52ip-1226670770639
The link proves my party has already had a win.
See Both Bill and Paul led/lead my union.
Credited with 46 years membership on leaving, I never knew a union head was meant to control the party.
But I knew Unions have plenty of work to do in the workplace.
Born long before both mentioned blokes, I by the time of their birth, knew workers did not always like being lumped as fodder for others.
And had an inkling a union ticket did not take away their right to an opinion.
So believe me, we *workers unionists/ALP foot soldiers* had a win last night.
Bill Shorten did too, his ego is as big as his ambitions, and nearly as big as his ability's.
He in time will join this mornings two new Ministers, at the head of our party for decades to come.
After Rudd leaves, maybe a decade, we have talent to burn for his job.
And last night kick started the very heart of a dieing ALP we are alive and reform is assured.

Belly, Shorten went up in my estimation because he made a very tough personal decision that will probably lead to your Union being deregistered.

He put his loyalty to the working class men and women of Australia to whom he owes his entire career above the threat of retribution from Ludwig and Howes for leaving them vulnerable to Gillard's files and mouth when she tries to negotiate her way out of jail for fraud and other crimes.

He put that loyalty ahead of pleasing his wife and her mother, who have both made a career out of being feminists.

He put it ahead of the plans to turn the ALP into a middle-class women's party with all the lovely disposable income for party donations and time for organising that middle-class women possess.

I hope you appreciate just how much that loyalty will cost him. It may also spell the end of the Party as a major political force if the psychopath Gillard can manage it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_Psychopathy_Checklist

Factor 1: Affect

Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Pathological lying
Conning/manipulative
Lack of remorse or guilt
Shallow affect (genuine emotion is short-lived and egocentric)
Callousness; lack of empathy
Failure to accept responsibility for his or her own actions

Factor 2: Case history "Socially deviant lifestyle."

Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
Parasitic lifestyle
Poor behavioral control
Lack of realistic long-term goals
Impulsivity
Irresponsibility
Juvenile delinquency
Early behavior problems
Revocation of conditional release

Traits not correlated with either factor

Promiscuous sexual behavior
Many short-term (marital) relationships
Criminal versatility
Acquired behavioural sociopathy/sociological conditioning (Item 21: a newly identified trait i.e., a person relying on sociological strategies and tricks to deceive)

Not many boxes Gillard doesn't tick, eh?

Shorten is a brave man.

We you and I Anti may have the roof cave in on us, so be it.
It was here I said Australian men tend not to support female leaders.
Not all men but many.
I too subscribe to the view keeping 40% of our seats for women , not the best in any sex candidate, is wrong.
You should from my post see I thank and forgive Shorten, he showed his guts.
Now bloke remember your 100 to 1 offer, I without blinking an eye would have taken it $300 to win $30,000.
Here you let a personal thought rampage in to fantasy land.
Unions do not pay the bills for leaders wrongs.
No crime has been committed only an act of stupidity.
AWU has respect for females and the best get to be employed in many roles in that union.
It is as always the refuge for both bosses and workers fleeing the lunacy that extremist unionism is.
Anti even international women politicians are blasting Rudd.
Blaming him, for every male or female voice raised against Gillard in the last 3 years.
How truly sexist!
Telling us removing a woman who came covered in a mans blood is sexist.
Here we must watch or see our sanity at risk.
Why is this act,returning a man unjustly removed, in the same fashion the woman removed him wrong.
Be aware of the ruffled and baffling feminist.

The BLF paid the price for Gallagher, belly. The AWU will pay the price for its corrupt culture. Shorten stood against the AWU at last, after allowing himself to be lead by the nose for too long.

When was the last time anyone stood for election against Ludwig or opposed anything he wanted?

As for the rest, it's all about spin, not substance.

Have you had a go at that checklist above yet?

Your union will be gone within a few years. Don't cry for its loss, cry for what it became and what the personal ambition of a couple of corrupt leaders and nearly allowed to happen to Australia.

Just one other thing before I head to work, belly. In the end, the white collar unions and their members were too worried about the short-term pain of Abbott cuts to the APS to be carried along with the Gillard/Howes move to smash the Party so as to rebuild as a "progressive" party to capture all the women who vote Green.

Feeney is the other key and as a TWU man he knows very well how hard that Union is having it in finding members and that it would be a "dead man walking" if the Gillard plan came off.

He had already kept Ged Kearney from the Batman pre-selection and he knew that his long-term future was not going to be good in a progressive-dominated party.

Open your eyes, old mate.

Doug Cameron was very revealing in his interview after the spill when he talked about ridding the party of "extremists".

Gillard, Conroy, Emerson, Howes and the entire Emily's List crew apart from Wong, who doesn't really fit their mould anyway, are all gone. Emily's List will have no more influence and I suspect many of "their" members will lose pre-selection before the election after this one.

Wong will remain, which is good. I've always had a great deal of respect for her integrity and intelligence. She's a very good man whose only connection with that destructive rabble is her second X chromosome.

Anti sorry bloke put you are quite wrong!
My AWU never in its history produced men like that bloke.
AWU once was the very owner of the ALP.
Charlie Oliver formals gave GW permission to run for ALP leader.
IT hurts! and will till I die! to see the Union dragged down, by its actions in knifing Rudd.
Anti even more so, because *I KNOW WHY AND WHO DROVE IT*
It never should be the unions job to sink the ALP by being blind deaf and I dare not say other than dumb, worse fills my head.
AWU will be very soon this country,s biggest union, it already is our best.
Shorten, and for that matter the man he trained Howes are both brilliant men, BOTH could be a future PM .
INCREASING numbers want less self promoting news paper columns and more concentration on the jobs they hold.
Bill Shorten had the guts to say he got it wrong, for that I return to his camp sure he one day will be a great PM Howes too could fill that spot, if so I am sure he will not want out side influences harming my ALP.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

The Victoria Police Major Fraud Squad have invested thousands of man-hours in the AWU-WRA case. They know who's up who, who paid, who watched, who organised the p1ss-up afterwards and which pub the grog for the p1ss-up was knocked off from.

The AWU won't just be historically significant, it'll be history.

Anti I consider you a mate.
But am well aware we differ on most things.
We share a concern men are often the victims of a slant towards some women.
Let me tell you then mate who, once again [your offered bet] you are wrong.
In the year of that AWU fraud, it was not todays union but my treasured older one.
The Union asked the police to act.
I tell you no evidence and no allegations ever have been made against the Union.
And never will any emerge, I was just a country delegate then, sick to death of what I and my members saw as a dieing union!
It failed to service us for nearly two years.
We today see a better union, after it Amalgamated with the then Iron workers.
Most AWU but not all office holders went, I belonged to the group who proudly stayed,and saw it grow to todays great union in every way as great as ever it or the iron workers had been and better no stain can be found on its hands in this matter
continued

Anti if I lie or leave something out to try to blindside you then I am nothing, no better than those supporting the NSW FILTH.
AWU called in the police, quite rightly the donor and the Union had been defrauded.
The police from that day, in the 1990s have investigated and tried to charge some one, they will not charge any one currently or then out side Gillard her then boy friend and his assistant.
You trot well off the track thinking other than that.
Are you aware of the standing of the AWU?
Do you know in truth bosses and whole non-union workplaces invite them in?
To take refuge from *insane militancy of left wing unions*?
Anti it is true, my view, a moral fence has been broken down and trampled by union interference in my party.
You and I need not serve the humble pie Rudd,s return did that for us.
And yes that B%^%dy word solidarity has given refuge to a few products of unwed parents who betray members.
But no fool I will until dead be both high maintenance, a term used to describe trouble makers.
And totally in love with my union, because it so far is the only one moving towards a better workplace for its members.

belly, I know you're sincere mate, but do yourself a favour and have a think about what you're saying.

The Vic police have executed search warrants on Slater and Gordon, specifically looking for all files related to the AWU.

They have executed warrants on the Federal court after they requested files from the Brisbane registry on actions by the AWU that could not be found, but later turned up in the Melbourne registry. Gillard's boss at slater & Gordon, Murphy, is a Judge in the Melbourne registry and one of the documents is still missing - an affidavit by Wayne Hem that he deposited $5000 cash that Wilson gave him from "AWU" funds into Gillard's account. Gillard appointed Murphy.

They have taken evidence from everyone they could who was in anyway related to the AWU or asociated with Wilson and Gillard in the early 90s.

They have taken statements from Ian Campbell, who was AWU Joint Secretary at the time and with Ludwig was party to a court application to recover redundancy money paid to Wilson and others in 95, but not a party to Ludwig's application in 1996 to revoke the order. Wilson kept his redundancy and Ludwig didn't make the revocation public. Gillard was then Brumby's Chief of Staff and running unsuccessfully for the Senate. Cambridge is an honourable man who is now a Fair Work commissioner who has called for a Royal Commission into the AWU since 1996.

The WA police tried to investigate in 1997, but Thiess refused to make a complaint, saying they'd "got what they paid for". It was only when Michael Smith, a former copper himself, was the subject of a heavy-handed assault on his integrity by Gillard when he raised the matter on his radio show that the matter livened up. Smith was contacted by Ralph Blewitt, who gave him statements and documents which Smith used as the basis of a formal complaint to the Victoria Police. They currently have forensic accountants tracing where the nearly half a million that is known to have gone through the AWU-WRA account ended up.

There is also the matter of the Kalgoorlie widows and Orphans fund which Wilson, with the help of Gillard, who spoke to a meeting in Kalgoorlie to lend her credibility as a lawyer (as far as I can work out, she was acting privately, rather than as a Slater & Gordon rep to the AWU) to the Wilson scheme to loot the $million or so in that fund by having it transferred to AWU control. Soon after, a new building was bought for the AWU in Kalgoorlie and the fund dismantled.

It must have been a nightmare for Ludwig and his protege Howes when Smith got the investigation under way after Gillard had already taken office thanks to their support in knifing Rudd. All of a sudden they didn't control Gillard by keeping quiet about what they knew, she had them by the nuts with what she could tell the cops about them in exchange for leniency. Shorten must have known a fair part of all this and he shut up too. Ditto Conroy, Emerson, Combet

Didn't you ever wonder why the Right would be so firmly behind the most far Left person in the Parliament, whose social and economic agenda was so completely opposed to their members' interests?

Having thought about it bit more, I reckon Shorten was looking out for himself by ditching Gillard. He knew that Ludwig and the AWU would be dead once the charges were ready and that would be the end of his power in the Party.

It's a dirty game.

Anti it is a dirty game.
And some true products of unwed parents did defraud the AWU.
But Slater and Gordon was Gillards work place, my defense of AWU does not include her.
Certainly not Wilson, he was a reject, I confronted him out of his state during a time the AWU was trying to get a construction branch up.
Before flying to WA the idiot took 8 non-union workers from a site I worked on, they had been our traffic controllers and walked of with only one lane open and real danger to motorists and workers.
I met that day, for the first time, a GREAT AWU Secretary, now dead, he told me what a fool that bloke was.
No charges and no taint on the AWU comes via that trio, I can not say with certainty what Gillard did but she let the AWU down.
Bloke any grub who takes a union, therefore its members down is a slug.
You are fishing in a dry pond.
If I did not think that I would be at the throat of the people you charge.
While my union is my life that is because it serves those most in need its members not I say proudly its self.

I need to tell more about that day and too why any firm gave such money to a union.
First on that day an old but wise AWU official took me for the first time in my life in to the unions local head office.
Secretary on hearing just how dangerous my site had been left, blew up.
A man head and shoulders above some he that day, saw those man never returned to that job.
See such was their stupidity they stole their bosses trucks, refusing , without being owed a cent,to return them for no reason.
In WA at the time of the donations, union militancy was crippling industry.
Not normally AWU coverage industry wanted a choice and still do, between militancy and a union that will talk before kicking in the walls.
In my view Wilson was in the wrong union he and at least his grubby mate are born criminals.
That day he, without even telling us he was on site put all our lives at risk and stopped a job that needed to be finished before dark.
Plant stopped and operators Marshalled traffic for 6 hours until THE UNION arranged help to finish the job.

Belly, I don't disagree with what you say, but your Union has been owned for 20 years by one man. That man raised Gillard to the top of your party and that man kept her there while she destroyed it.

Your union must throw that man to the wolves or he will destroy it.

I was once a member of your union in Qld and I saw what that man did when a serious incident seriously injured a member of his union. I saw waht he did when an ungraded, unwatered 20 km long road that had to be travelled every day, by two shifts, caused a head on collision that left one of my mates in hospital for 6 months and others off work for weeks.

Do not defend him, he is scum of the earth and he surrounds himself with scum.

Anti you have me in a vice.
I know,fully understand, and &%^ help me agree.
I know the bloke know his helpers, have to say like him and them.
But at the cost of my good name in my union *long gone* say you have that right.
My union drove,with him and Shorten the knifing of Rudd.
But in board rooms in that union all over this country this mornings polling force feeds humble pie to those who own those acts of unwed parents.
I still love the union.
Am content to know my past members still regard me as a mate, every union official who can not say that should be sacked.
But your troubles with them, in no way say the whole union acts that way.
A younger man sits in the QLD office, his time to lead is coming,and in all honesty he is a great man and leader in waiting.
I need to fill out more about Wilson so continued.

I doubt that any one posting here knew as much as I did about Wilson.
That great now dead Branch Secretary named him * a Cowboy*
That day I was red faced with anger, not at first knowing *no union man* knew he was to put lives at risk.
In fact my members said if answers did not come we would all leave the Union.
That hill billy had blindsided every one.
His reason? AWU was considering a construction only branch, to take on another union? maybe.
Wilson was acting as its head, BUT the assistant Secretary of my branch, unknown to us, was running for the same job.
Later as my duty took me in to the office weekly I found our,and agreed with, the plan had been, to scrap the second union if it got stated, it never did.
Assistant Secretary became Secretary on the death of the great man.
The union was at war,with its self after the coming together of both unions.
Bill Shorten AWU got to lead and soon got the union together, it would not be around without him.
Wilson ruffled many feathers, and his actions storming other unions sites saw my union challenged by the other construction union.
I as a Senior Delegate gave evidence against them,both rebutting lies said about me by their only member, in my workplace.
And some thing I treasure still, saw our National conference and national President say seeing my actions under that grilling as the highlight of his time in office.
Ego plays no part in my telling you that, my isolation from my union is understood, nothing is more x than an x.
And I will aways to want better, not rat bag use of that evil word *solidarity* HONESTY looks better to me if not past mates.
Anti I truly think that donated cash was for the second union that never got off the ground.

belly, I am not pleased to be saying these things. I know it cuts you to the quick and it took me a long while to accept it as well. Your national president owned Wilson. Wilson never got any money out of that stripping of the Widows and Orphans fund. Some of it was spent on a building for the Union and some other union purchases. Where's the rest? That was in 1992 as this front page from the Kalgoorlie miner shows.

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2012/12/the-boulder-fund-kalgoorlie-miner-articles.html?cid=6a0177444b0c2e970d017c34af6369970b#comment-6a0177444b0c2e970d017c34af6369970b

The AWU-WRA business was Wilson's and it was only publicly uncovered when the Commonwealth Bank asked what to do with the money in it via a letter that Ian Cambridge saw after Wilson left and he had sufficient integrity to ask questions and raise the matter with the police.

Perhaps this helps explain a few things

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2013/02/julia-gillard-gives-legal-advice-to-bruce-wilson-after-he-is-accused-of-embezzlement.html

"Mr Gude said that when Wilson had found he had been discovered, he
sought legal advice from the union's solicitors, Slater and Gordon, and was given advice by Ms Gillard.
...the first thing she did was pay money back to the AWU . . . for work that had been completed on her own home, courtesy of Mr Bruce Wilson, to cover their tracks.''" Taken from The Courier-Mail, 13 Oct 1995.

Here's another good unionist like yourself, a former joint President of the Victorian branch who was bashed and nearly killed after he refused to keep his mouth shut about payments made by the Union for work on Gillard's house. Listen to who he names as covering up Wilson's activities.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRBDILUbYQE&feature=player_embedded

Then there's this

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2012/11/a-letter-from-bob-kernohan-to-chris-hayes-mp-former-awu-industrial-officer-and-mate.html

The Party had to pick Rudd, he's the only one without AWU sh1t all over him. The next step for the Police will be warrants on the ALP. They've already raided the AWU in Qld, WA and Victoria.

I can't help thinking Rudd has a very long game in mind and the current job as PM is not an end, just a means. I won't go into that just now.

Anti no way!
Please continue to tell it as you see it.
I know you think that is right let me shed more light.
In the 3 years before two Unions became one, by the way the Iron workers virtually took over the AWU then.
My Union was dead, it never served us and I had to be Union delegate and official, long before being called to that office.
we took to infighting, I know this.
Our last AWU only head was not worthy of his job.
We today are, in every respect the AWU few but some slugs still hide in that, and any union garden.
I then now forever do not want a union to be the owner of my party, it kills us by degree.
But that maggot Wilson was disposed of very soon after the day he could have killed many.
Remember his act took place after a two lane two direction Pacific Highway had been ripped up to an depth of 300 to 400 mm, dry cement partly mixed needed hours of work right then , and we after seeing near smashes had to control traffic not work .
Such actions blacken the trade union movement and any thing you charge the bloke with most likely took place

It was a great thread but as its time has come we might give some thought, in another thread to its Authors current state of mind.
I find o sung wo a gentleman, and value his contributions both here and in his life of real value.
I am a sufferer of that black dog.
Grateful I can lift myself just that little as needed.
Have in other role been able to see how widespread it is and know it is not a socio economic or class thing.
Bit wary of posting new threads,I invite others to try .
But please know it is not insanity in any way.
But too it pulls the toughest of men down.
For the same reason we die of curable disease, we think it unmanly to get help.
In the middle of that last drought young men on the land socially isolated killed them selves because mans best friend turned in to a nightmare.
o sung wo thanks for your company here and may you get much better soon mate.