The one thing I can't abide under any circumstances, is racism in it's purest form.

I can understand Australians object to foreigners arriving on planes, overstaying their visa, buying property and businesses, and employing people for $7 an hour without declaring it, or paying tax, because this threatens the Australian way of life.

Discrimination against Aboriginals however, in our country, is the purest example of racism that you will witness on this planet. Let me explain,

A couple of hundred years ago, slave ships arrived from Britain. Invading a land inhabited by another people, (the Aboriginal people). They (the invaders) pressed on with a campaign of the massacre (of a comparably defenceless and vulnerable and for the most part civil people), involving poisoning traded food goods, to ethnic cleansing, to shooting Aboriginals for sport, and so on. In the case of Tasmania, the Aboriginals are an extinct species going the way of the Tasmanian Tiger.

Since Eureka Stockade, (a Rebellion against the aristocracy) by the slaves, attempts have been made by some Australians, to reconcile with Aborigines for our crimes.

Then along came John Howard spending 100's of millions of tax money on changing textbooks in schools extinguishing the truth about the annihilation. Inventing new ways to discriminate and intervene against them, Howard sought to engender negative feelings toward them, in exactly the same way as he did towards boat people. Incitement for votes and ideologically purpose built education for the future.

Today our youth suffer from a lack of historical context, (deliberately denied them by John Howard, in school), draping themselves in an Australian symbol of rebellion (the Eureka Flag), (a flag they do not understand the historical context of), whilst professing drunken hatred of muslims (Cronulla) and Aboriginals this year, with the help of Tony Abbott and a few collaborators in the crowd, to inflame the situation.

Aboriginals are the only people in our society without any actual opportunity to live the Aussie way of life.

Playing politics on this on Australia day , illustrates why this "Son of Howard Mad Monk", should never be PM.

Dear Thinker 2,

Few people would disclaim the fact that the original
inhabitants, Aboriginal people and Torres Strait
Islander people were dispossessed of their land and
were discriminated against by the first British and
European settlers as well as the fact that racial
discrimination has continued to influence their
lives in the two centuries following white settlement.
Theirs is a sad history - and is still ongoing as we
know with Aboriginal deaths in custody still needing
explanation.

A peaceful demonstration on Australia Day
would have helped their cause - however it turned violent
and Aboriginal leaders were right to condemn the violence.
The burning of the Australian flag the next day did not
help matters either - and lost them much support.
The media beat-up also only made matters worse.
But that was to be expected.

As for Mr Abbott's comments? They may not have been the
most tactful - given the circumstances - however, a violent
reaction to his words - did even more harm.

As I wrote on another thread -
some people mistakenly believe that public expression
of violence is a legal and acceptable form of free speech
in Australia. In Australia, as internationally, the right
of freedom of speech carries with it certain
responsibilities and restrictions which protect the rights
of others against open hostility. Australian law
expressly prohibit incitement to violence or hostility.

A very sad Australia Day in Canberra - all round.
Hopefully lessons would have been learned by all from this
experience.

'Thinker2' (yeah, right),

I've knocked around Indigenous affairs for nearly fifty years. My wife and I made the first Flags after work and sent probably a hundred or so around the country for free, back in the early seventies.

But I've witnessed so many Indigenous scams, frauds, con-jobs and lies, and had to work for such incompetent, blow-hard Indigenous bosses that I've got to the point where from now on, I'm going to accept nothing as truth which hasn't been demonstrated. Just as a woman may have been raped, or a child may have been abused, they still need to find some way to prove what happened: nobody has to believe with no evidence. So it is with Indigenosu issues.

For example, deaths in custody: at the time of the Royal Commission, 23 % of prisoners were Indigenous, 22 % of deaths in custody were idnigenous. Well, what would you expect ? 2.5 % ? In the NT, 80 % of prisoners are Indigenous - would you still expect 2.5 % of deaths to be Indigenous, or 80 % ? If 99 % of prisoners were Indigenous, would you still expect the 1 % of prisoners who were white to 'provide' 97.5 % of the deaths in custody ? Apples with apples. Of course, nobody should be dying in custody, Black or white, but that's another issue.

Last year, OLO published a key article about the 'Stolen Generation'. When the writer was asked to cite some cases, after two weeks, he came up with some very questionable cases from a century ago.

I'm even suspicious about the Rabit-Proof Fence story. Is there any actual evidence that THAT took place, three little girls wandering a thousand miles through bitter winter nights and blistering summer days ? And please don't say 'how can we ever get evidence ?' That won't work any more. No evidence ? Then shove your story.

I'll work and fight the best way I can for genuine Indigenous rights, I hope, until the day I die, as my wife did, but

[TBC]

[contd.]

I will never, never put up with lies or scams, ever again, if I can help it. Life's too short.

So when you casually toss off remarks about 'massacres', prove it. If you assert, you prove. Massacres ? Where ? When ? If something happened at some place, then there will be some form of evidence. If you don't have any, but just have a sort of feeling that 'it must have happened, whites are all such b@stards', then get some. Then come back and tell us about it.

Actually, the only massacre I know if here in SA was of 28 people, castaways from a wrecked ship, the "Maria", murdered by Ngarrindjeri in 1841 or so, and their bodies stripped and shoved down wombat holes.

But the words roll off the tongue so easily - 'massacre', 'genocide' - don't they, so who needs proof ? It's such a capitalist thing, so 'Western', 'modern', in a post-modern world. We 'know' what whites are like. And anger and false passion don't need evidence - is that how it goes ?

No: empirical evidence should trump apocryphal gut-feelings. Find some before you open your mouth, 'Thinker2'. Think before you speak or write. It might make a valuable change for you, sorrier but wiser. And a blOOdy lot harder than your children's version of history.

Joe

T2, would you like to return to where they were 200 years ago.

There is plenty of space out there for you and them to go.
of cause you can't have the developed parts, but I am sure we could arrange some form of rent for you and your mob.

Now of cause this comes with conditions.
You live on the land, without ANYTHING from the modern world.

You can hunt and gather as much as you like, you just have to make your weapons, canoes etc, but first you will have to make your stone axe.

You had best think about some form of clothing as well, paper bark perhaps.

No dole, no housing, no provided food, no paint to sniff, or petrol and of cause no grog.

In tens of tousands of years they built next to nothing.

What makes you think the last 200 years would have been any different.

Good luck! Let us know when you have decided who wants to be an Australian and who doesn't.

we are all racists

so saying
we are all of one prime race
we are all decendant..of a first people

all decended[birthed],.,.by a mother
a native...belonging to an ab-origonal race
all the way back to..the first mother

[eve]
the beta
beta..of alpha...man..[adam]

origonally
we are all
*of the first people..origonally

we are all abo...
[alpha/beta/origonal]...from somewhere

our mother was native...aborigonal
in her homelands..till an invader came
and took her aborigonality away..

and made her..change her name

yes we are racist
but we are all abo

time we learned the best of our orionality
mens business and womans business

all decisions..only via consencus
it your not good...you get bannished

outcast...[that colonisers talk up..into being cocco-nuts
betrayers of their own origonal peoples[natives]

what is austrailia
when what you really GENETICLY are..

is abo/first person origonal
via your genes...that link back
to your first mothers..ab/orionality

anyhow much thought to the topic
but damm post limits mean my thoughts are scatterd
from julias thread..to the emabassy threat..fraud thread..two fisted[that just dont sound right]...

anyhow we are getting closer
to a change for the better

im in concenus
good topic
lets follow where it leads

notice how i got the biology gene thing in
now just evolution and mendelic inheritance

You're right, OUG, we are all Africans. Australian Indigenous people are also Indians and South-East Asians too !

I guess one thing about living on the Africa-Asia-Europe landmass for tens of thousands of years, is that innovations and ideas had a chance of painfully and slowly being dispersed across huge distances, being taken up, developed, refined and improved on.

Indigenous people stuck on the Australian-Papua-New-Guinea landmass had correspondingly far fewer innovations and ideas to develop and to share in. So it is no wonder that Old Stone Age culture was still dominant when the outside world arrived in 1788.

And as Rehctub has pointed out, if anybody wants to keep living it, there is nothing stopping them. Nobody is forcing them otherwise. And I hope that any devout OSA adherents don't try to force those ways back on anybody else. After all, the rest of the world moved on from them tens of thousands of years ago, and have learnt a hell of a lot since then.

In fact, I don't think there would be a single Indigenous person in Australia who would genuinely want to return wholeheartedly to such practices - but it's hard to say, because by definition, they wouldn't be on email :)

Cheers,

Joe

I applaud your sentiments, thinker 2. It is true that racism is alive and well in our society, and I agree with you that it is abhorrent and should not be tolerated.

However, you make the mistake of presenting one group as 'villainous' and ignoring any wrongdoing by others. Perhaps the media was caught up in more dramatic affairs, and my neighbourhood (with quite a large Aboriginal population) is too peaceful, but I didn't see any drunken louts professing their hatred of Aborigines this Australia day. I did, however, see footage of some very angry Aborigines shooting their mouths off about how much they hate white Australia. Perhaps they have reason to.

You also spoke of massacres, and Loudmouth questioned the validity of these claims. I did some fishing around for evidence - or at least evidence that there was evidence somewhere - and my first port of call was the little speck a couple of hours north of here called Murdering Point. I had been told that this was the site of an aboriginal massacre, so thought there must have been some evidence. Alas, I misinterpreted. When they said 'aboriginal massacre', they meant massacre BY aborigines - not OF aborigines.

http://www.murderingpointwinery.com.au/the-murdering-point-story.html

I don't know how true the story is, and I understand that there were many of the massacres and atrocities that you describe: I was taught about them when I was at school, while John Howard was PM. Interesting. The Myall Creek massacre springs to mind, but of course that wasn't supported or endorsed by the government - 7 of the perpetrators were executed for that crime.

We have some disgusting characters in our past and, no doubt, in our present. Not all of them are white.

<< Alas, I misinterpreted. When they said 'aboriginal massacre', they meant massacre BY aborigines - not OF aborigines.>>

Naughty, Naughty, Otokonoko.
Go and wash your mouth out with soap and water.
There were no such things as Aboriginal on Aboriginal massacres ...and talk of such is all white lies.
I am sure Thinker 2(sic) would find no mention of such things in his de-Howardised text books.

Otokonoko & SPQR,

As we know from watching so many crime shows on TV, it is very difficult to carry out a murder, let alone a massacre of many people, without leaving some physical evidence - cartridge cases, teeth, bone, skulls with bullet-holes, tools.

It's hard to get rid of evidence. Burning bodies takes a huge amount of fuel, a tonne of wood per person, as Keith Windschuttle pointed out in one of his definitive works.

On the other hand, there was a lot of bragging and bulldust in the nineteenth century, with the intent of scaring Aboriginal people into 'acceptable' behaviour. Oral history accounts are therefore - on both sides - extremely unreliable, just as they would be on 'Law and Order' or 'New Tricks'.

But there must be plenty of sites which are renowned as massacre sites. Now that there are Indigenous archaeologists, it should be getting easier to verify whether massacres were carried out at such places, or it's all just tall stories.

In one of Ruth Park's books, she reports an old Maori warrior who fondly remembers the time when his group caught and cooked a missionary bishop: delicious, he said. As Ruth Park pointed out, no bishop has ever been caught or killed, let alone eaten in New Zealand.

So we need to get beyond stories on both sides, and carry out rigorous research.

Rigorous research ......

Hey, aren't there a thousand Indigenous academics now at universities, most of them working away on their Ph.D. research on obscure and esoteric topics, leaving so much of their teaching work to bought-in white contract staff ? Wouldn't it be great if, just for a change, they actually did some research which had real-world merit ? Like checking out massacre sites under the guidance of Indigenous qualified archaeologists or forensic scientists, and proving conclusively, one way or the other, that they either did or did not occur.

Thinker,
your OLO name is an oxymoron. I do accept that many indigenous Aborigines have been the victims of invasion & I acknowledge that whenever it needs to be acknowledged. Your posts on the subject however are not based on fact but merely on do-gooder emotion & ignorance in general. You're one of those ignoramuses who think the Aborigine live in an absolute Nirvana before the european invasion. You're portraying a wrong view which is just very convenient for bandwagon jockeys to hitch a ride on.
Aborigines were players on an uneven playing field to their detriment. In the last 50 years they have been put on a pedestal which for their own good is too high. Why is it that people always seem to think they know what's best for others ? I don't know that myself but what my experience shows me is that I know what's detrimental to them & that is the do-gooders undermining the bridge-building & compensating that has been going on for a long time. Many self-called indigenous are ruining it for the bona-fide. People like you Thinker are wrong in your philosophy that two wrongs make a right. Doing wrong includes writing deceptively in order to prevent harmony.

Joe,

What's your understanding of the so called "elimination" of Tasmania's aboriginals early 1800's? Just asking.

I really don't want to get into a lather about all this, for obvious reasons. However, despite Keith Windschuttle's "definitive works" (he is not the 'ant's pants' as some would have us believe, due to what some would call, obvious 'predjudices').

Regardless, Wiki is always a good starting point - particularly if you follow the references and footnotes.

I have no doubt that Windschuttle would find many 'errors' in the Wiki link and would like to re-write the embedded history but to me, at least, a helluvalot of research has already gone into it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_of_Indigenous_Australians

Surely it can't be all twaddle, can it?

Thinker 2 with nothing but respect may I?
In fact my well respected poster I MUST.
I see in your post every thing that drives me insane about shadow minister.
A remoteness from truth on this subject
First many Australians have long ago ,wanted the tent Embassy removed.
Its early days served a purpose, it degenerated.
Abbott was said to have said he wanted it removed, a STUPID UNION OFFICIAL, fed by AN IDIOT staffer, used these folk, in an effort to hurt Abbott.
They LIED! he did not even go close to saying ANYTHING OFFENSIVE!
As WELL AS HALF WITTED UNION/LABOR STAFFERS, THOSE FOLK HAVE BEEN SHOWCASED AS BEING USED BY A HANDFUL OF radical worthless activists!
the alp NEEDS NO BLANKET OF LIES IT IS DOING WELL.
Yesterday my country suffered, to think our two party leaders had to suffer this?
could have been killed, yes true.
Consider this,IF those protesters had come from one religion we would be involved in a debate that would scream for blood.
No way out a criminal act has taken place let the law take its course.

Bonmot,

My limited understanding is that in Tasmania, roughly as many Indigenous people as whites were killed, over the period from 1804 to 1835, around a hundred or each. Windschuttle of course is the authority in this area: check out his definitive work.

Of course you will .....

Of course there were battles, all over the country. But whether unprovoked massacres occurred has to be verified in some way, in each case. Surely this is the proper procedure, regardless of our preferences and wishes ? Although I'm not sure why anybody would 'wish' for massacres.

Major battles took place in SA on the Murray, in 1842 or so, after a party of overlanders were ambushed, half a dozen drovers and bullockies killed, and 600 cattle taken off into the bush. Troopers from Adelaide took the best part of a year to bring the situation to a conclusion, with two battles on either side of Lake Bonney, in which many Aboriginal men were killed. Of course, there weren't many cattle left by then. The warriors, on one side of the river, used to taunt the troopers, on the other side (this was still the days of muzzle-loading rifles, inaccurate and slow), switching sides when the troopers did.

But if you want to call that a massacre, go for it. Thanks for that Wikipedia list of battles, by the way. There must be tons of physical evidence of such battles, and even of massacres, if forensic or archaeological experts were able to study these sites thoroughly.

But it's a lot easier to just believe, not to worry too much about proof: proof is so 'modernist'.

Cheers,

Joe

bellie quote..""First many Australians
have long ago..,wanted the tent Embassy removed.""

please be more acurate
some australians...[like matilda house...made to feel important
through both parties reign/mundane..the list goes on

but mate timming is everything...its important not only who
but when..they are asked./..[its usually after the media finds something it wants to jump on,,[something contriversial..[lol]..like burning a rag

""Its early days..served a purpose,
it degenerated."'..say you and yer cocconuts

how come if it served its purpose
one in 5 kids die before reaching the age of 5

how come the average life expectancy for males is 33 yo
and for femails..its a bit higher..

largly i talked to the widows..of the founders who died...
[and who is keeping hubbies name alive..along with the parental culture]

""Abbott was said to have said""

by juliars spin merchant..said
to angry people..at the tent embassy
his versioon of ta..words..PLUS TOLD THEM QWHERE HE NOW WAS

it was all a set up
soo organised..planned to occure
asfter ta was set up

"" a STUPID UNION OFFICIAL,..fed by AN IDIOT staffer,
used these folk,..in an effort to hurt Abbott.""

yep clever stuff
headline grabbing[if only we can photo
a girl in disstress,getting groped by her security]
running for her life...[that would begin the year great mate

""They LIED!""

mate it went to the media
poor juliar..attacked by the abo
abboty set on em[win win]

""No way out
a criminal act..has taken place
let the law...take its course.""

and let the first people try..to heal thyself
i rekon we replicate the roaring 20's...

set up many small business
[early business models]

..hairdressers..gardeners..dog groomers..mortitions..fireman/welders/brickies..
bridge builders..plumbers..jobs jobs jobs

run the training course..
and all..*in the course..own a share
[of the infastructure...with the best working
and owning all the busines proffits][maybe buy back shares in time

Thanks for that Joe.

At the end of the day, perhaps colonisation of Australia was just 'war' - where one side (the 'white tribes from the north') were far more 'superior' than those invaded?

To the 'victors' go the spoils, to the vanquished - tuff titties.

At the end of the day, something is not 'right' :(

As to Windschuttle, I won't be checking out his "definitive work" (have much more on my plate) but the following wiki is a good synopsis on the 'wars', both past and present :((

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_wars

I'm glad New Zealand took a different way forward.

cheers

Dear bonmot,

Please check out the following link.
It explains the case of Windschuttle and his
book - which by the way has been totally
discredited:

http://www.utas.edu.au/library/companion_to_tasmanian_history/F/Fabrication.htm

Lexi,

In one page ? I don't think so. Robert Manne ? I don't think so.

Usually rebuttal takes up a lot more space than the original assertions. Certainly with Windschuttle's documentation.

Bonmot,

I have been dedicated to the Indigenous cause, at least to my own version of it, for nearly fifty years. My wife was Indigenous, my kids are Indigenous. I don't delight in finding fault and in realising that, in the face of so many scams and rip-offs, one has to ask for evidence of assertions. I want to believe. But I've been caught out believing just a few times too many and I'm too bloody old to let it continue. I've seen too many careers destroyed on the rocks of ambition of too many Indigenous alphas. And utterly incompetent b@stards at that.

If you assert, then you must prove. No, it was not a matter of war, and of spoils going to the victors, tuff titties. No, the realities have been far, far more complex than that. It takes a life-time to realise that, and to realise that one's gut-feelings are worthless in the long run, without evidence. But I suspect that most whites who suck up to the Cause keep well away from people's actual daily and private lives, from evidence and from ever delving into the actual historical record. It's safer that way, isn't it ?

Cheers,

Joe

My personal experiences over 30 years in remote communities are for me a far more accurate benchmark to comment than some academic browsing around for 3 weeks & then leaving as a fully qualified expert on remote communities. They blatantly refuse to accept anyone's word other than another academic or an indigenous who tells them what they want to hear. This is why we have so much ongoing disunity. One lot is too ignorant & the other is to opportunistic. Integrity does not get its foot in the door. Its alway the abusers & the abused, never the successes of people living in harmony. I live in a community which was very cohesive with clubs & various social functions until Wayne Goss took the reigns in Queensland. All of this has now eroded to nothing & to add insult to injury the Bligh outfit has thrown the communities to the dogs of bureaucracy with Council amalgamation.

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

As I stated earlier - it is now possible to explore the
past by means of large number of books, articles, films,
novels, songs and paintings. Many voices have filled out
the space once claimed as the Great Australian Silence.
All you have to do is some research - from reputable
sources - go to your local or state library - they have
entire collections of this issue. Look up articles on
Keith Windschuttle if you don't like the link I provided.
There's plenty more on him by many sources.

However, I must admit that considering your background -
I am perplexed at this apparent gap in your knowledge.
Black arm-band history is often distressing, but it does
enable us to know and understand the true history of this country.
Not the romantic version that many of us were taught and still
believe as factual to this day.

Anyway, believe whatever you want - it's your own affair.
And the reasons for doing so are your own as well.
History will judge events in due course - no matter
what you or I say or do.

cont'd ...

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

BTW: The "one Page," as you referred to the link
I gave to Bonmot - was from the University of
Tasmania. Did you click onto the "Frontier
Conflict," reference at the end of this article?
If you had you would have seen the vast bibliography
that was given for other reading material on this
subject. There were many references listed that
you could pursue - if you're genuinely interested
in finding out more.

I've just come across the following two links
that may put things into their proper perspective
for us:

http://newmatilda.com/2012/01/27/mob-violence-wasnt

And -

http://newmatilda.com/2012/01/27/real-tent-embassy-story

Lexi, you're spot-on:

" ... believe whatever you want - it's your own affair.
And the reasons for doing so are your own as well.
History will judge events in due course - no matter
what you or I say or do."

Well, a bit of genuine research helps of course. And I've been doing that for more than forty years now - and come out the other side in the process. I'm proud that we made the first Aboriginal Flags from 1972 onwards, for example, and nobody can take that away from us.

I'll stick by what I wrote: that from now on I will believe in what I have evidence for, not gut-feelings, not romantic versions, but hard, mundane reality.

So it goes without saying that I will keep trying to work and fight for genuine Indigenous rights, to comment on wrongs when I see them, such as 'self-determination', and on progress when it occurs, as in higher education - no thanks there to the self-serving Indigenous academics or their minders.

Indigenous people do not need lies, or scams, or frauds, or bullies. They need reality. Their cause is just, it is a hard and bitter struggle, but it is one which they will win, I'm sure of that.

Joe

let the law take its course.
Belly,
you didn't specify which one. The one that protects the perpetrators & persecutes the decent ? Or do you think there is actually a law as such which deals with fairness ?

I am afraid we have come to the end when it comes to real reconciliation with these people.

We have spent the last thirty years working on the wrongs committed to previous indiginous generations, by previous uronpean generations, culminating in an official apology, only to have it all undone in one fowl swoop.

It took thirty years to take that one huge step forward, yet only took thirty odd minutes to take thirty steps backwards.

Let's face it, they will never be happy and will continue to blame us for buying that VB carton or sniffing that paint, with money that was GIFTED TO THEM by the tax payer for the purpose of providing the basics of necessity.

I am afraid this is simply a lost cause and as I have said before, I feel the time has come for them and thier leaders to decide who wants to be Australian and who doesn't.

It never ceases to amaze that we so often hear the mantra that Australian history has been sanitized.That people have been kept in the dark about the true nature of early white black interactions. And Thinbker2 (sic )--true to his nature --exploits it here:
<<Then along came John Howard spending 100's of millions of tax money on changing textbooks in schools extinguishing the truth about the annihilation>>

Yet even a cursory examination of library shelves will show that it is widely covered.In fact, in many local libraries it's the only view of history on show. And if you look at the responses on sites like OLO there is no shortage of posters who seem to know only an extreme black armband version of history. Albeit they are wont to quote dubious sources like New Matilda & Robert Manne as if they're biblical verse, to support their one-eyed views.

Far from being a secret version of history, the black arm band version is very much en vogue. And unless you do our own research you're not likely to hear much to the contrary.

And the myth making goes on. Anyone who has had the good fortune to visit the Sydney suburb of Redfern recently will see posters lionizing Thomas, or 'TJ', Hickey. And anyone who doesn't know the background could be forgiven for think Thomas Hickey had been hanged, drawn & quartered by the police by the police (another martyr for the cause!).

As long as there is an ALP then it'll be that long that we'll have disunity. Let's face facts. How many of the stirrers are conservative ? How many of the stirrers actually contribute their own share of funding ? 99% of stirrers are hangers-on unless of course their employers are rather lenient. Let's have a referendum stipulating where you want your tax dollar to be spent on.

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

A bit of genuine research certainly does help.
That was the point of my previous posts.
And I am pleased that you intend to continue
working towards greater understanding of the issues
involved. We should dispel the myths and the lies,
and the distortions. This continues to be an
important debate in this country.

If you've been at it for 40 years as you claim, then you
have a great deal in common with historian Henry Reynolds.
He's been doing research for over 40 years.
He was educated at the University of Tasmania. He worked
for thirty years in Townsville at the James Cook University.
His primary research interest has been the history of
Aboriginal-white relations in Australia. His publications
include, "Aborigines and Settlers," "Frontier," "The Other
Side of the Frontier," "The Law of the Land," "Dispossession,"
"With the White People," "Fate of a Free People," and
"An Indelible Stain," and of course - "Why Weren't We told?"

From his research, to his personal encounters in North
Queensland jails, to his work with the injustices towards
Aboriginal children, to his friendship with Eddie Mabo -
Henry Reynolds has shattered the myths of our "peaceful"
history.

Dear SPQR,

I get it - you don't like reading New Matilda, or Robert
Manne, or the University of Tasmania link that I provided
including the vast bibliography of further reading given
under the "Frontier Conflict," heading at the end.
Possibly your preference lies with the vested interested
and big corporations who control the media - and people
like Alan Jones and Andrew Bolt.

To each his own.

Dear Individual,

You asked how many of the stirrers are conservative...
Which stirrers are you referring to?
Those that own and control the media?
Or people like Alan Jones, Andrew Bolt, or
our politicians?

As for income tax - strange that you object to money
being spent on one group as a means of redressing the
disadvantaged inherent in our society but you make no
mention of the tax loopholes that the wealthy enjoy.

thinker 2

Michael Mansell Quote: (1998c)

.#...Other Aboriginal leaders feel constrained by the current political climate. For them, pursuing Aboriginal demands depends on how much public support there is. In other words, Aboriginal justice is a matter of popular opinion…#.

...Duel criticisms are levelled against Aboriginals for firstly taking from the patronising hands of Governments, the largess proffered from politicians eager and compliant to UN charters of HR; and on the other hand also criticised as lazy layabouts through disincentive these very same contributions appear to create.

...What Aboriginals wish for themselves, was the point of discussion in the peaceful meeting at the tent embassy in Canberra, on that now fateful day, which will enter the history books as a moment of National multicultural shame: But the judge is out on whose shame it will be.

...If we explore this question using the policy cry from some entrenched OLO posters above, and inspect the evidence, then quite clearly both sides of Politics are entirely to blame. Firstly, without the inflammatory and totally illinformed and impeccably badly timed comment of Abbott on Australia day; of all days to make such a comment, Australia day would feature such comment as malicious. Secondly, as Abbotts comment incited a riot; Gillard and immediate staff members, in true “Clown” form, stepped forward to perpetuate Abbotts inflammatory statements in order to capitalise on the Aboriginals sensitivities, for political gain.

...What this event does, is expose the existence of establishment racism of the highest order. Aboriginal people were publicly used-up on Australia day 2012, and spat out by a compliant media, all too anxious to continue the blame game, long before the truth of the matter was to expose itself for the set-up it was!

...The saving feature will be though, however this event was engineered, Aboriginals will now be seen in the light of the oppressed minority that they are. It will prove to be a mighty “coup” for the cause of Aboriginal sovereignty, the feature discussion at the peaceful tent embassy gathering on Australia day 2012. (Thanks to the joint stupidity of Abbott and Gillard).

Lexi,
again you're twisting my words. where did I object to helping the needy ? I am advocating stipulating where people want to spent their tax dollar. You'll find 99% will include helping the needy. what they want include is wasting money on those who don't need help.
I make no mention of tax loopholes ? are you serious ? Who is the most ardent pusher for a flat tax on this forum ?
You really need to take a step back & think about what you're saying.
I have thought about it long & hard & watched & observed for many years & I know that the ALP wasted way more than the conservatives ever could. It was under the ALP that the indigenous communities copped the short end of the stick not under the conservatives. Those indigenous who say otherwise aren't genuine & they're in the pockets of the ALP. Integrity & ALP are like oil & water, they do not mix.

In response I would simply re-assert the point I made in my original post,

"Aboriginals are the only people in our society without any actual opportunity to live the Aussie way of life".

This is a direct result of the fact that being born aboriginal in our country results, in zero or practically zero opportunity. This is racism in it's purest form. References to being lost causes etc that I see displayed on some of our posts are atypical of our attitude towards them. What hope do they have?.

Is this their (the aboriginals) fault that they feel discontent ?. I don't think it is. Is it their fault that their very cause, goals and points of view are fragmented, disjointed even directionless ?. I don't think it is. I believe it is our fault. If our history and past had been all but obliterated, we might feel a little dis-orientated as well.

As for Howard and historical reference books in schools, he did indeed spend million of tax money on this. He also made a point of justifying this, saying that the books in schools did not represent a balanced view of Australian history. The replacements he provided did promote the so called "black arm view". I believe this was a backward step.

A policy such as intervention for example is clearly in breach of International Human Rights Conventions because it is clearly discriminatory. Such a policy would have only been acceptable to a public already lathered up with in-correct beliefs by our leadership such as "how well off Aboriginals are compared ordinary poor people". The truth is that even the poor have opportunity our indigenous people do not.

As to massacres and war etc, I'm sure that if my home was being invaded, I would also make some attempt to defend it. Citing instances of massacres by either side, and their alternate bona-fides is not the point .

Today I receive text messages on Australia Day from 19 yr olds expressing views similar to my grandfather's in respect to the indigenous, refugee's etc.

cont..

cont...

The Howard years took us back about 50 yrs in our attitudes, but in the most damaging way, our youth, "instead of being the source of progressive thought in our society are the source of preservation of old world concepts. I say this purely in terms of politics.

For the record I am of anglo saxon/spanish heritage. Professionally I am a musician. Music is one area where there has been genuine opportunity for indigenous, because "it's not your heritage that means anything, it's the quality of your music". I believe we should learn from this.

OK took me a while to catch up.
It is us, whites we are the problem.
Well our great grand dads and mums.
Mine, convict stock, probable had ancestors in the Crusades too, beggars!
Had the Brits only waited a few more years! those Nice French would have come, we would be off the hook.
Those west Papuans, now being Murdered, would not mind if it had been us who colonized them.
Now it is clear, 200 years of white oppression and murder is that it.
About time we gave the place back, hang on,
What about me! Irish, Scottish, Welsh convict back ground, maybe some Aboriginal in there too?
one world one people?
Sorry try to forget that.
Us white we did it those poor shouting folk only wanting justice.
Bout time we forgot the past and asked why is it like this now.
OH forget, my fault only answer some have!
And we must stop being proud of our country adopt the first Australian term RIOT DAY

Dear Individual,

You should do your research regarding the Indigenous
People and which Australian Governments did them the
most harm before making sweeping generalisations
against the Labor Government. People might mistake
you for an ignorant man.

T 2, Aboriginals are the only people in our society without any actual opportunity to live the Aussie way of life".

Neve a truer word spoken..

Every day Australians don't enjoy the benefits of low interest loans.

We don't apply for jobs with a huge employ erg subsidy attached.

We don't get free medical, free phar etc.

Nor is it accepted that our kids can roam the streets, literally doing as they please.

Another dozy I that phrase, born an Aborigial.

What a joke!

The number of genuine full bloods born today would be minuscule.

Part of my outer family is of aboriginal decedent, about one sixteenth it think, and guess what, their kids received abb study, while mine got nothing.

Funny thing is, I helped pay for both.

How many indigenous persons would have achieved their degrees, had we not arrived.

What did you expect, to continue communicating via a stick on a piece of vine.

Your lot need to get a life or go live in the bush somewher WITHOUT all the support we work to provide.

A forty dollar slab or forty dollars worth of food, the choice has been theirs to make, yet they continue to blame us.

Even now when we say enough is enough, and quarantine their HAND OUTS they whinge.

A few words of advice for them, get a job, get a life and MOVE ON!

Alternatively, they can always MOVE OUT. Nothing stopping them.

The time for wasting these hard earned dollars on this mob is over. They simply don't appreciate it.

Just another injustice, one of their spokesman called Tony Abbott a grubby little man. What would have happened had he said, it's time these coons moved on.

One set of laws for us, another for them.

And they call us racist.

@ Thinker2

<< Aboriginals are the only people in our society without any actual opportunity to live the Aussie way of life">>

For someone who purports to talk on behalf of Aboriginals you seriously short change their achievements--here's a short list for your edification.

Academia:
Marcia Langton
http://tinyurl.com/8xzcsph

Political Leadership:
Warren Mundine
http://tinyurl.com/7p83nfr
Neville Bonner
http://tinyurl.com/7kr7pca

Business:
Noel Pearson
http://tinyurl.com/6rwwlmw
Numerous examples
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/indigenous-enterprise-deserves-to-be-celebrated/story-e6frg6zo-1225898190652

TV & Cinema:
Ernie Dingo
http://tinyurl.com/752vw5q
Jessica Mauboy
http://www.jessicamauboy.com.au/

Dance:
Bangarra Dance Group
http://tinyurl.com/83k2hn3

Sport:
-Rugby League
Preston Campbell
http://tinyurl.com/78sm7r9
-Soccer
David William
http://tinyurl.com/7qdnw7w
-Tennis
Evonne Cawley
http://www.zimbio.com/photos/Ken+Rosewall/Evonne+Cawley/2011+Australian+Open+Launch/aEtKgaq7kxm

**And, even in PRETEND football!
Michael Long
http://tinyurl.com/7nro7e6

<<I am a musician. Music is one area where there has been genuine opportunity for indigenous, because "it's not your heritage that means anything, it's the quality of your music".>>

I do hope you're a better musician than you are a thinker.
Perhaps you need to extend your focus a bit further than the end of your instrument.

SPQR,

Opportunity ? On current figures, about 35 % of every young Indigenous age-group will go to university from now on: in 2010, about four thousand Indigenous people started an award-level university course. The median age-group, 24-26 year-olds, numbers about eight thousand.

20 % of those four thousand commencers are enrolling in post-graduate study. A handful would be starting their second degree. Another handful would be transferring from one course to another.

So about three thousand out of eight thousand would be commencing award-level university study for the first time (not to mention another thousand non-award students in Bridging Courses). Most of them will graduate, in three or four years' time.

Back in 1972, there were barely a couple of hundred tertiary-educated Indigenous graduates, one in every thousand adults. By the end of this year, there could be close to thirty thousand Indigenous university graduates, one in every eight or nine adults. By 2020, fifty thousand - one in every six adults - could be graduates.

It's called 'opportunity', thinker2. Some seize it, some don't. It needs hard work, though. 'Opportunity' is often like that.

Cheers,

Joe

People might mistake you for an ignorant man.
Lexi,
only the ignorant ones do that, the ones in the know agree.

Thinker 2,
please change your OLO name to something more appropriate. You have no idea.

Until we celebrate Australia Day on its true legal and historical date - January 1st - we are going to suffer problems year after year, as far as the eye can see.

In 1788, there was no such thing as Australia. The British claimed the eastern half of the continent of New Holland. In 1788 the British were establishing a penal colony ** not a nation **.

The nation of Australia was actually born on January 1st, 1901. This inauguration date was legally and constitutionally proclaimed by Queen Victoria on 17 September, 1900. This is our true birthday as a nation.

December 31st should also be made a public hioliday as it was on December 31st, 1900.

[Alfred Deakin, Morning Post (London)]
“Never was a moonlit midnight in Sydney marked by a wilder, more prolonged, or generally discordant welcome than was December 31, 1900 . . .
whistles, bells, gongs, accordions, rattles, and clanging culinary utensils yielded unearthly sounds . . . Immense crowds on land and water vied with each other in mocking and echoing the noises about them . . .

some common sense [for once]..to quote..""The nation of Australia was actually born on January 1st,..1901.""

wether it was vandiemens land...new holland...
or simply the great south land's..australia didnt egsist..till it was created..[or granted to egsist]

there is no flag
described..in its constitution

as we still have an armed occupation force
CONTROLED..by a representative of the queen
who serve to protect the queen and her heirs
we teqniclly cant even claim..a flag..

cause we arnt even a self aware declared independant nation
maybe at best a colony...[lets face it the australia ACT...had to be ratiefied..by british govt

look at who gives orsder..to the armed forces
a queens govener[general]...lol

if anything the flag stands for ignorance

we are a funny convoliution of states gov generals
and a federal gov general..who has final yeah or nay
indeed teqniclly cant sign any law...by by the queens mark
[thus cant even..join the united nations..unless ratified..by hrh]

sao that hasnt happend
but other things have...[funny how lies only grow bigger]

""This inauguration..date
was legally and constitutionally proclaimed by Queen Victoria on 17 September, 1900...This is our true birthday as a nation.""

lol if nation we be
or colony..or collective of colonies

""December 31st..should also be made a public holiday
as it was on December 31st,..1900.""

till we direct...the gg to leave
we are a colony..under occupation

that deserves more thinking
than blustering..[spin]..by an anti monarcist pm

I just heard Christine Milne on TV saying Abbott should focus more on advancing indigenous rights instead of pursuing the Labor staffer re incitement to riot.
Firstly, nothing more can be done to advance indigenous rights without their own input, the ball is in their court.
Secondly, incitement to riot is extremely serious & has to be investigated. Ms Milne is not in tune with normal life at all, perhaps she should work where she can't do any harm. She's definitely unsuitable for politics.

Dear Individual,

Only the ignorant ones do that, the others all agree
with you? Oh dear. You really should be more
particular in that case about the company you keep. :-)
LOL!

Dear Individual,

So you think that Christine Milne is unsuitable
for politics. Interesting. Is that because her
views don't agree with yours?

For all that, Lexi, Individual has a point:

".... nothing more can be done to advance Indigenous rights without their own input, the ball is in their court."

Since it is now much less likely that any constitutional changes will be approved at a referendum, the current legal situation is probably as good as it's ever going to get. So the current range of opportunities and benefits might well be the parameters within which Indigenous people will operate for the foreseeable future.

Equal rights mean - as Noel Pearson keeps saying and writing - the equal right to take responsibility. Some of us assumed that from the beginning back in the seventies, that equal rights might mean hard work and effort, that as they were made available, the cop-out of victimhood - and the temptation to throw your hands in the air, lay on your back and take the money - was no longer justified.

Of course, those who have banked on 'no opportunity, whites are all b@stards, what's the point of trying?' and have resolutely turned their backs on effort, skills, education and putting in, relying on lifelong welfare, might now find themselves on the wrong side of history. Judging by university participation, a huge proportion of the Indigenous population are prepared to do the right thing and put in the effort to make equal rights work.

They're the silent heroes, not the dopes who scream "Those other fellas have got their embassy, why can't we have ours ?" Because, dear, it's your country, there is no other. This is the one that you have to make work. All of us together.

Yes, the ball is in the Indigenous people's court. The opportunities are there, they can't be denied. There don't have to be the obstacles that there used to be, even if the wallowers want to think so. As a very good friend often remarks, "Just add effort !"

Joe

Lexi,
Again point missed. Ms Milne's views are wrong technically & morally & that's why I think she's not suitable to be in politics.
Technically, she is wrong because she should by now be aware that the indigenous issue can't be solved by us.
Morally she is wrong by being so hypocritical as to try & make us believe that she believes the indigenous issue is still a genuine one..
So far as the company I keep I can only say I prefer the company of people who care & do their bit to help improve our seemingly lost society & yes they don't push each other for Australia Day awards. My circle of friends is not a mutual admiration society, they're doers.

Only just heard a statement that the indigenous incarceration rate is much higher than others.

When you have 10 indigenous & 4 commit an offence then the rate is 40% for incarceration.

When you have 10 non indigenous & 4 commit an offence then the rate is 40% for incarceration.
Can someone explain how one group has a higher rate than the other ?

You didn't say where you got your numbers indy.

Try here:

http://www.crikey.com.au/2011/12/15/aboriginal-prison-rate-continues-to-rise-is-neoliberalism-at-play/

bonmot,
way too much academic gobbledegook in your link. I found my figures in my daily life & I found that more indigenous than non indigenous are involved in criminal activities hence the uneven numbers. They're not disproportionate they're just higher.

Bonmot is correct Indi, despite your shallow attempt to deflect the facts.

The indigenous people, do get a better opportunity when it comes to ending up in jail. Even a disproportionate opportunity to be jailed.

I am surprised by this because your posts normally have some substance.
On the back foot are we ?.

As for you Rehctub you will even stoop so low as to use racist terminology. It is unbelievable that you should use this terminology in this day and age.

And Lexi , I agree that only Labor Govt's have instigated rights for the indigenous, the facts speak for themselves. Until the Labor Govt we now have. It has done nothing other than strengthen the intervention policies of the Howard Govt.

Sweeping generalisations, are commonplace when it comes to discussing racism. To speak out against racism is one of the 10 activities necessary (on a human rights charter that I have on my fridge). I will continue to do this despite the personal derision attempted by some posters. Goes with the territory.

SPQR tell me how many aboriginals there are working as receptionists, or car sales people, or on building sites or as bus drivers, school teachers, etc and so on. Would indigenous people even get an interview for these positions most of the time ?. How many own small businesses in suburban Melbourne or Sydney ?. How many had the opportunity to grow up in a middle class household, to acquire the skills to apply for the above opportunities on equal terms ?. Practically none, is the answer.

Opportunity and equality of opportunity are not provided or guaranteed if you are indigenous in this country, because of racism. Pure and simple.

In the absence of deep seated irrational racism, we might find than even our indigenous people have something to offer as well.

Call me misinformed if you like, but I would like a world without racism. Especially, one without the entrenched, irrational and deep seated form.

I think this is one of the main problems, their leaders just don't see what the rest of us see. They always play the victim.

The real victims here are the indigenous kids.

Many of Their parents having been provided with welfare, designed to provide both the necessities of life and an education, prefer to piss it away A THEIR OWN CHOICE.

Now somehow, that's our fault, because some 200 years ago we apparently took their land.

200 years ago they got didly squat!

Nowadays they are in most cases provided for and, in many cases a blind eye has been turned as they go about their Daliy rituals.

Until these leaders accept the fact that many of their people do do the wrong thing, nothing will change as the first step towards solving any problem, is admitting you have ome.

Thinker?2,

This wilful blindness is what I was trying to have a go at. Yes, there certainly is still a lot of racism, as well as Blackfellas who use white racism for their own careers, and many other grotesque variants of racism. But skilled and education Indigenous people tend to be employed, there is no excuse for throwing your hands in the air:

* there would be at least five thousand, maybe as many as seven thousand, Indigenous qualified teachers employed around the country;

* Indigenous qualified health professionals in employment would number between three and four thousand;

* qualified and employed Indigenous lawyers would number in the hundreds, perhaps as many as a thousand;

* another fifteen or twenty thousand Indigenous people would have graduated from a vast range of fields of study, and are currently employed.

Yes, it has been very hard work for many Indigenous people, mainly in overcoming their own uncertainties and the lack of support from their communities and families. So sue me for saying so.

But they have done it. And so many of their brothers and sisters could have done it as well, until some moron blew in their ear and persuaded them that they might lose something by gaining qualifications. If I were paranoid, I would love to ask of those 'advisors': "Who do you work for ? Whose interests are served if talented Indigenous people are persuaded to remain unskilled and out of work ?"

[TBC]

[Cont.]

Many people in the world are fluently bilingual, they mix easily in more than one sort of cultural setting, they mix every day with people from different backgrounds - and they do all this without losing their identity, or any of their language (or languages) or sense of who they are.

Anglos, coming from a monolingual island to another monolingual island, tend to have trouble understanding this. They often can't grasp how someone can walk and chew gum at the same time.

But the great majority of Indigenous people don't have those sorts of problems, they mix with other people all the time (especially those in the cities, the centres of intellectual life) and yet remain Indigenous, and in their own ways.

So Thinker?2, who DOES benefit when Indigenous people pull back, decide not to gain any skills, and throw themselves on the mercy of the welfare system ?

Yes, there is still a lot of racism around, and what could be worse than to try to convince some poor silly buggers that they should spurn their only chances in life ? That modern education is somehow not for them ? That somehow, they are inherently 'traditional', that on the one hand, the world that they are locked into is not really theirs, when on the other hand they know very well that they cannot ever - and do not really want to - go back and live a 'traditional' life ? Isn't that the most dreadful racism ?

Nobody is born 'modern'. Nobody is born 'Old Stone Age'. We are born with more or less the same mental potential, and our environment shapes us from then on. The core belief of racism is that one is born, and forever stuck with, a certain mentality, or 'culture', that it's part of your blood, in your bones, in your genes as they would say these days. No it isn't. Leave those outmoded ideas in the past, where they belong.

Cheers,

Joe

tell me how many aboriginals there are working as...
thinker2,
not as many as there could be if they stayed in their jobs. Only today after lunch I was in a meeting with an indigenous DEM & she asked my advise as to how we could possibly keep indigenous old & young in the work force. Her dilemma was that about 12 clock in at 8 in the morning & then you don't see them till clock out time. Yet they put in 8 hrs per day in the time sheet yet no work is done. If you don't believe me call any community DEO at random, they'll confirm this.
Another couple of blokes just took off for a couple of months & now they want their jobs back instantly.
That Thinker2 is the daily scenario & realism. Indigenous people get high priority in employment but they give their employment no priority at all.
That's why you don't see many indigenous in the places you mention. It's their lack of concept of responsibility & their lack of thinking ahead. Many decent indigenous will tell you exactly what I just told you. They don't call me racist because they know I'm not. They know what I state is not made up unlike a lot of your academic views.
I know a lot of non indigenous who fall into the same category, many of whom have half-baked degrees.

You are spot on Individual. I have seen the scenarios you paint many times over. The non acceptance of responsibility is rampant. I know a number of young Indigeneous men who have had jobs in the mines but their woman complain constantly they are not at home doing the cooking and housework. Inevitably they end up in crime and prison. Many of the Mining companies have bent over backwards to give Indigeneous people jobs but it has ended up costing them big time. Maories, Fijians and PNG people end up taking the jobs because they appreciate an opportunity and turn out to be reliable most of the time.

T2 , take your blinkers off!

Joe, thanks for the the detail you post and the message in those posts.

R0bert

Dear Thinker 2,

Thanks for your well reasoned
and logical arguments.
It's a skill not easily acquired.

Sweet Lexi,

You and I inhabit more or less the same universe, out there on the left somewhere. But even so, one needs evidence, not just stance, for a convincing argument. One thing I've learnt is that I can go well and truly up the creek - and for many years - by relying on assertions, stance, passion, indignation and that feeling that "Yeah, that sounds about right."

We all make assumptions, it saves time and thinking, and so we accept apocryphal stories rather than find out the hard truths, and build our ideological edifices on those stories, not facts.

For example, I used to assume that it would have been out of the question for Aboriginal people to be allowed to have access to guns in the nineteenth century. But here in SA, I learnt later that the Protector provided any Aboriginal people living and fishing along the Murray with a rifle or shotgun every seven years (repairs free), a 5m x 5m tent every seven years and a 5m 'canoe' every seven years. Fish-hooks, cartridges and blankets every year; flour, sugar, tea and tobacco every month.

When the missionary George Taplin was looking for a likely place for his school, he landed at one place, gave a couple of Aboriginal men (who he had never seen before) a rifle each and asked them to go off and get some ducks for him (they came back hours later with one duck. Yeah, right :) It blew my mind to read that he had given them guns: weren't they sort of at war ?! But no, there it was.

The problem with apocryphal thinking is that, if one of your premises is actually inaccurate (for want of a more inflammatory term), and the actual truth simply doesn't fit your picture, then your whole picture can collapse.

Assertions are fun, they are easy, they don't need anything as bourgeois as evidence. It's the facts that have to be made sense of, not fantasies.

Cheers,

Joe

entrenched, irrational and deep seated form.
thinker2,
the ball's in your court ! It's up to you to make that move & discard the blinkers.

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

The search for facts is part and parcel of my
professional training. It's what I do as
a librarian. Also I was taught by my father at
a very early age to question everything.
Fantasy has its place - however in my job I
wouldn't still be employed if all I could do is
fatasize.

Thanks for your concern however,
I know you mean well.

While there are rorts in Indigenous funding as some allude, there are also rorts in many non-Indigenous government funded organisations but without the tired old generalisations. It seems if you are an Aboriginal or a Muslim you share the burden of your fellow ethnic wrongdoer but if you are white the wrongdoer is an aberration of the norm.

It is really simple. What is wrong with the idea of changing the date of Australia Day that is more inclusive of Aboriginal Australians and does not celebrate the invasion of the Europeans.

New Zealand was much better at including Maoris into the fabric of life including signs in both English and Maori on public buildings probably due to differences between Maori and Aboriginal culture as much as anything else.

Maybe the date of the Apology might be a good start with nothing to lose and only something to gain.

Pelican

I suggest you look at crime statistics, speak to people who live in areas where aboriginal live and check out the imprisonment rates and you might discover a different code of ethics among aboriginals and muslims to that of the general population. Unfortunately these are generalisations but ones that are true. You can bury your head and be part of the problem for another 50 years like most of the aboriginal industry if you like but you are doing no favours to anyone. A good start would be the WA Police Commissioner who out of concern and frusgtration has started to leak the truth.

The same WA authorities that bought us the "shoot the sharks solution" no doubt Runner. How reactionary can you get. Gee they are a model for us all aren't they?.

No greater example of prejudice will you see than your own proposition suggests Runner. Shamelessly, you use the term "codes of ethics", when you infer lack of ethics. Even a criminal lack of ethics that you attribute to race or creed.

Thank for your very kind remark Lexi. It's obvious that librarians, as keepers of the facts, would be trained in knowing where they facts can be found. It's their job isn't it ?.

And Pelican you make a excellent point ,

* While there are rorts in Indigenous funding as some allude, there are also rorts in many non-Indigenous government funded organisations but without the tired old generalisations. It seems if you are an Aboriginal or a Muslim you share the burden of your fellow ethnic wrongdoer but if you are white the wrongdoer is an aberration of the norm.*

Runners view supports a prejudicial assumption, as central to his argument.

It is not rational, and is made of the same stuff as requiring science (for example) to consider the existence of God as a given (without any evidence of such), before framing the basis of their research. You cant start experiments with a prerequisite prejudicial assumption because you would never arrive at the correct conclusions.

I placed this post because I am concerned that core racism has strengthened in our country of late. It is now at unhealthy levels, particularly in our youth.

Delivering negativity towards ethnic and religious groups was a political tactic of the Howard Govt. This is all, that some of our citizens have ever known.

Before Howard we were making progress in these area's, with reconciliations and land rights, and lately apologies, and we were observers of International Refugee Conventions etc.

cont...

cont...

Today we are told by our political leaders that we need to "turn back the boats". The minute we do, we will seen as international pariahs and hillbillies , as if we aren't already. Our own armed forces are dead against the idea, for their own ethical and operational reasons.

And yet we still hear our politicians making mountains out of molehills about the magnitude of the problem, for political capital, encouraging base ill feeling towards some ethnic groups or religions and exacerbating the core problem. Howard understood "the underlying racism that most people will feel if given the right stimulus". And used it.

The method used by racists to support their case is to draw attention to individual instances, as testimony to their bona-fides, and then they generalise.

In the end, racism is just an emotion, it's not a rationale.

Joe,
Acording to wikipedia, 86% of aboriginies live in urban areas and therefore are subject to the same advantages and disadvantages as any others that live in the same places. This then raises the question as to why should this particular group receive any more government assistance or recognition than anyone else.

It is time we eliminated any reference to any race in the constitution and we are all classed as one, no exceptions.

Maybe we could give assistance to those people living in remote areas, again irrespective of race or creed.

You should be aware that Lexi has used New Matilda as a reference for facts, so that should be considered.

I see the National Indigenous Times has now reported that many from the PMs office were aware of the inciting of the protest at the Lobby restrauant on Australia Day. They even say the knowledge was even as high as the PM. I wonder if Lexi has the same faith in the NIT as she does in the NM. I have no knowledge of the credibility of NIT.

In a pic with the story it showed a number of flags carried by protestors that appeared to be Cuban, I wonder why that is? Why would australian aborigines carry Cuban flags? The next Day they set fire to an Aussie flag, so if they are so contemptous of Australia, should they be entitled to special benefits?

No non Thinker

I am not blinded by leftist dogma which is constantly proved wrong and which you seem to adhere to.

Dearest Lexi,

Thank you for your concern. I've just found this Debunker's Handbook, on The Conversation:

https://theconversation.edu.au/fighting-fact-free-journalism-a-how-to-guide-5125?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Latest+from+The+Conversation+for+February+3+2012&utm_content=Latest+from+The+Conversation+for+February+3+2012+CID_dab4ba823e42fb766437bd6398533184&utm_source=campaign_monitor&utm_term=The+Debunkers+Handbook

I guess there are always three positions with an assertion (at least three):

* to deny outright, regardless of evidence;

* to accept outright, regardless of the lack of evidence;

* to suspend belief until one has evidence, or otherwise.

For example, most of us would like to believe (God knows why) in a Stolen Generation. What is the evidence so far ?

* The late Bruce Trevorrow, taken in 1958 from Meningie, SA.

What is the evidence of excessive Aboriginal deaths in custody ?

* Given that (at the time of the Royal Commission) 23 % of prisoners across Australia were Indigenous (a shocking statistic, but if you do the crime, you do the time), while only 22 % of deaths in custody were Indigenous, none really yet.

What is the evidence of the truth of the Rabbit-Proof Fence story ?

* Hard to say, apart from hearsay (i.e. oral history), but could be bolstered by newspaper reports, carping references by the opposition Labour Party at the time, some mention in the Moseley Commission (under the new Labour Party government) evidence or Report in 1934, some evidence of police movements or use of staff from the Rabbit Department (yes, there was). Or not bolstered, if it is just a yarn made up and which took on a life of its own.

What is the evidence of Indigenous success at universities ?

* DEEWR statistics pointing to a rapid rise in commencement numbers since 2005, and the equivalent of around a fifth of an age-group graduating each year, 20 % of those at post-graduate level.


There is stance and there is evidence. It's great when they come together :)

Cheers,

Joe

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

The university graduates are not the ones that concern me.
They are obviously highly motivated people and will
achieve what they set out to do. What does bother me
are the preventable diseases that so many Aboriginal adults and
children still suffer from, the unemployed, and all the other
social problems that the Indigenous people are still
faced with in today's Australia. And what can be done about it.

As for "truth," :

"All truth passes through three stages. First it is
ridiculed. Second it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
(Arthur Schopenhauer).

Dearest Lexi,

Yes indeed, there are at least three ways of dealing with the truth, in "inverted commas" or otherwise.

That first 'stage': sometimes a truth is ignored, it's bad form to even talk about it, let alone bring attention to it by ridiculing it -pretending that there is no issue worth considering.

You know you really could be onto something when it is ridiculed - not invariably, because it may be rubbish. But at least, at that point, you've got under someone's skin.

Regarding Indigenous people in higher education: there aren't two species of Indigenous people, one of which goes on to university, and the other for whom it is forever out of the question. They are fundamentally the same people, with the same range of opportunities, even if those opportunities are much more remote for one population than for the 'other'. My interest is: what might the effects be on the Indigenous population and on policy, ten and twenty years down the track, when one in six, and then one in five, and then one in four, Indigenous adults are university-trained ? They are not going to go away, you know.

And to take Individual's point, yes, some Indigenous graduates - and some unqualified people too - are appointed to positions which do not seem to have any actual duties. You ask around but it's impossible to find out what they do. They swan around the place, come to work late, leave early, yet never seem to face any sanctions. I fervently hope that those days are coming to an end.

Cheers,

Joe

Clearly then Joe it is also rational to suggest, that these 2 species of which you speak also exist in the general community. Often the difference can be attributed to opportunity alone and not at all due to individual capacities, attitudes or lack of ethics.

Indigenous people have even less opportunity than the poor in our country, I have put forward this proposition from the beginning of this post.

I believe this endemic racism is both shameful and embarrassing Joe, and shows how little progress we've really achieved in our couple of hundred years of occupation.

Hi Thinker?2,

No, I think that what you write, that " .... Indigenous people have even less opportunity than the poor in our country .... " is rubbish, and very dangerous rubbish into the bargain. Many Indigenous people would suspect, without investigation, that it is so, and so it would not be hard to 'persuade' them not to even investigate., and thereby stuff up their lives.

But most universities (and most TAFE/VET colleges as well) still have functioning student recruiting and support units - they haven't all, surely, been destroyed by Indigenous Studies teaching schools, and Indigenous students haven't been sacrificed everywhere, surely, on the altar being built to the glory of teaching non-Indigenous students.

When I was working in the system, we got the Indigenous participation rate up to 3 % at our campus, twice the proportion of Indigenous people in the SA population. The opportunities were there then, and they are there still.

Indigenous women commence university at almost (92 %) of the rate of NON-Indigenous men in Australia. Taking class into account (as any good Marxist should), this is remarkable. Take remoteness into account as well, and history, and it makes any whinge about lack of opportunity quite ridiculous.

Yes indeed, there is still a very wide range of racisms facing Indigenous people, not least the expectation that they should confine themselves to 'their own' people, organisations and communities, a la Apartheid.

Yes, there was racism in the tacit attempt (not so much these days, but certainly in the recent past) to channel Indigenous students into Indigenous-focussed courses, and away from 'white', or mainstream courses - even by Indigenous staff, and sacking staff who disagreed, or who worked at campuses without Indigenou-focussed courses.

Yes, there is racism in assuming that Indigenous teachers are actually teachers' aides, and asking to see their parchments, or do the photocopying for other teachers.

And yes there is racism, in both confining Indigenous staff to Indigenous units, and conversely keeping them away from sensitive Indigenous issues and parking them in inconsequential jobs.

It's a complicated world out there, Thinker?2.

Cheers,

Joe