We have been here before.
Long ago that thread was not specifically Christian, in fact neutral in that area.
We did delve in to all views and spoke of our belief, including Christian ones, is there any truth in these three highlighted areas?
Well throw near death experience in and just maybe the answer is our brain can play trick on us?
May we take a break from politics?
And just for this thread any chance we actually pay lip service to the idea all views have value?

Dear Belly,

I believe in ghosts, in the after life, in spirituality
all of those things. Why? Because as I've written in
the past:

"I come from a tribe of nature worshippers, pantheists,
believers in faeries, forest sprites, and wood nymphs.
Who heard devils in their windmills, met them in the
woods, cloven-hoofed and dapper gentlemen of the night.
Who named the god of thunder, who praised and glorified
bread, dark rye waving waist-high out of the earth,
and held it sacred, wasting not a crumb.

Who spent afternoons mushrooming in forests of pine,
fir, and birch. Who transferred Jesus from his
wooden cross, transformed him into a wood-carved,
worrying peasant, raised him on a wooden pole
above the crossroads where he sat with infinite patience
in rain and snow, wooden legs apart, wooden elbows on
wooden knees, wooden chin in wooden hand, worrying and
sorrowing for the world.

These people who named their sons and daughters after
amber, rue, fir tree, dawn, storm, are the only people I
know who have a diminutive form for God Himself,
"Dievulis," - "God-my-little-buddy."

Any wonder I catch myself speaking to trees, flowers,
bushes - these eucalyptus so far from Northern Europe.
Or that I bend down to the earth, gather pebbles, acorns,
leaves, boles, bring them home, enshrine them on
mantelpieces or above porcelain fixtures in corners, any
wonder I grow nervous in rooms and must step outside and
touch a tree, or sink my toes in the dirt, or watch
the birds fly by."
(Al Zolynas - "LITUANUS." V.49. No. 2 Summer 2003,
Lithuanian Quarterly Journal of Arts and Sciences)

its a huge area your taking on here
one where it would be helpfull...if people said[revealed],
some of the 'strange things'..people have hinted at..in previous discussions on these subjects

there is much conjecture for egsample on manifestations
that in times of stress..it is reportedly possable to imprint
imagry or sounds or partial events...due to powers released by strong stress..or fear

i personally havnt 'seen' and apperitions
or had any drug induced experiences..but suggest these too may be relitive

[i did seen what may have been a flying [unidentified object]
abouve the canbera uni once..that sounded like an airship
[but have never heard of canberra having a lighter than air diragable]

anyhow this could become my fav topic
so lets suspend disbelief..and talk of those things
we are reluctant to diss-cuss..lets not forget we essentially are beings of energy[spirit]...and science has proven that energy cant be created nor destroyed

that one second your living here
then something goes/leaves/stops...and your dead

that we all die
and that many do communicate with those who have departed

i will look up some great links later

oh heck why not now

many great free downloads here
http://new-birth.net/books_life_after_death.htm

this one seems blocked
http://www.divinetruth.info/Downloads/CD/NaturalLove/PDFs/Franchezzo%20-%20A%20Wanderer%20In%20The%20Spirit%20Lands.pdf

heck most the others are blocked as well
oh here is one

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=GXiiawvlRCcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=A+Subaltern+in+Spirit+Land&source=bl&ots=JjNlQosKrm&sig=1qJYbhem82A3OOsb31iN2QRf8J8&hl=en&ei=yz1CTK7PBpC9cd39uL8P&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

but thats not the best way to read
best download from the first link

the whole books while you can

Ah OUG it comes,we wander in every thread I intend to here as we did last time we spoke about these issues.
Now first it has been decades from the days I indulged in Meditation vegetation.
And while I drink the odd glass of wine,rum, or port, I am rarely under the influence of it.
Sausage sand which and a beer too is an unlikely cause of my experiences.
I want to include one more subject, the feeling we have been here before,note how I ducked around not being able to spell it.
In the NT,for the first time, my brother was driving and said to his wife ,that old place on stilts is up ahead around this corner.
On getting there he knew it!and knew he had never been there before!
And was so stunned he stopped far enough up the road to collect his thoughts but not see it.
On the night my best mate/cousin died, I dreamed he visited me.
He cuddled me, put money I had given him in my pocket.
Then chuckled because in that instant he found out I had won second prize in a lottery and kept it quite.
I believe it was real!
And understand others will think me mad.
Some will remind me we as of yet do not even come close to understanding what our brain is able to do.

i just been wandering in past threads
that got me to wondering

but i said what needed be said at the thread

anyhow you got some stuff that i feel needs respectfyull reply

""Sausage sandwhich
and a beer too..is an unlikely cause of my experiences.""

i will re-read in the morning
re your experiences

""more on the subject,
the feeling we have been here before,""

ah yes the de-ja-vouse?
others will spell it better

my theory is
that we didnt begin with one big bang
but by many big bangs..

and de-ja-vu
is simply us monetarilly remembering a memory
from our previous life experience...[from a previous big bang]

see my theory is that life unfolds
EGSACTLY the same..each time...[in the big things]
but the minour details can change..[thats why my experience of de-ja-vu often turn out different..than the feeling

its remembering the last time
that gives us prophecy..etc
and as its hard to get the little stuff right
or wrong each time..i modified my theory...so that each new beginning[each new big bang..is cause we failed to get it right..this time]

so get sent back to go
so we all become the hero
not beg some all mighty god to fix it again[with yet another 'new beginning']

we beg god to fix it
so he pushes reset

and big bang
here we go again

anyhow im off to bed mate
as i explained at the alp union thread

look forward to others writing something to
but we can keep it going..if all fails yet again

lol
just like we did
every other time

anyhow cheers ol mate

On 12 September, 2001 in Australia in the very early morning I had a dream. I was in a vast room with flickering shadows dancing on the walls. I looked up and saw that the ceiling was made of doors with light coming through the spaces between the doors. Then the lights seen between the doors were replaced by flames. I woke up and went to the computer. There was a news item about airplanes flying into the World Trade Center. It seemed like a hoax or ad for a disaster flic. On the TV was the news of what had happened. I called up my family in Pennsylvania as a plane had come down there. They were ok.

A number of years earlier I was living in New York City. The WTC had just been finished but not occupied as yet. With a girl friend I went to see it. We walked into the building and were standing on an expanse of carpet with nobody else in sight. Seemed like a good place to roll so we rolled over and over on the carpets laughing and looking up at the ceiling.

I believe in the reality of dreams, that they have emotional links to current reality in my own life. I could share several that have been predictions of events in my life.

But I certainly do not believe in spirit beings that is supposed to be ghost reincarnation of the deceased. What has happened in the past people were often buried while in a coma, and their cries and screams could be faintly heard in the dead of night, also a flourescent plume of gas was often seen on moonlit nights rising from the graves of recently buried persons. These phenomon spooked the ancients into believing in ghosts.

dreams are a special gift
not nessisarilly for what they reveal..[ie content]
but for the break from 'reality'..they allow

i hear that blind people have visual dreams
that cripples walk...and the list of issues
that dream's overcome..is unlimited

think of wet dreams..or a poor person
dreaming of that the 'in material life'..they lack
it really is a karmic balancing..

that allows even if only for the moment..
relitive normality..relitive equality..or a glimpse of heaven[or hell]

who hasnt enjoyed the waking thought
'oh thats only a dream'..[so lets avoid the nightmare
but not the gift of the dream]..

that said..the area of visioning
isnt as much a dream..but it seems the 911 has its own specialisations
many with hindsight ..have recognised a deliberated 'warning/predictive preperation..''that will remain bejond analisis..

indeed much
in the whole field of parra?..normality

nightmares i have found
are best faced with going straight back to sleep..
and facing the 'foe' better armed to repell all boarders..
installed in our mental armour..[love]..of our reality
versis their..not reality

predictive dreams..like the towers in flames..[ok smoke]
may have some preperative intuition..that lessons the impact on our psychi..

but then so many of our fears are unrealised..
that its hard to know..which to take any more seriously..than any other

or we would loose this opertuinity living materially affords us all..and likely miss the others gifts of dreams..that balance

and certainly those who think to write horror movies..
would loose a vast field of inspirational terror
to frighten even more those who get frightend by surealistic imagry..[i get all i could ever need..in my own dream,s..for free]

but
no matter how frightening
how much more scary..if we lived
only..in each others nightmarish dreams

[oops
many of us do]

Dear Belly,

I think I've told you this event in the past.
It happened to my husband when he was a young
boy scout. It was his turn to stand on guard
duty at a scout camp during one particular
Christmas holidays. They were camped out in the
bush. He coped the pre-dawn shift. He was starting
to drift off to sleep when he woke up to the sound
of voices. In the distance he saw a group of males
and females walking towards the camp and talking
amongst each other. He merely assumed that it was
some of the senior scouts returning back to camp from
the nearby town where they had gone earlier that evening.

My husband stood up and waited as they approached.
Their voices were somewhat muffled. And as they got
nearer they slowly faded away. He walked towards
where they had been but couldn't find a trace of anyone.

The next day - he found out that their camp was next
door to an old cemetery. No one believed what he had
experienced.

I have done 13 thousand nautical miles, in a yacht single handed.

I have, on a few occasions, gone for periods a couple of weeks where I did not hear a voice, even radio. They were quite a few similar periods, where I did not hear a voice in a language I could understand, even on radio.

I must be a boring fellow, as no spirits appeared to fill the void.

I was once very frightened, close to the equator, on a flat calm night in the doldrums, when a moon rise was so bright I could read my chart in the cabin by the light.

I have never been so relieved as when that moon appeared, & confirmed that was all it was, but still no spirits.

Life at sea can get so boring, that I once reread a book entitled, "The Ant World", but still no spirits.

I blame my mother.

Dear Lexi,

Your husband was next to a crypt and had a cryptic experience.

Hi Lexi,
I am delighted to realise that you are a kindred spirit. Apart from my following Buddhist principals (A way of Life, not a Religion,), I am very Spiritual. I believe in Nature, faeries, Spirits ( I have seen a few Ghosts), and all things connected to us. I talk to my flowers, and apologise to them when I cut them (no, I am not whacky), I predicted my Fathers' death when I was just a small child, he died that night.
There is a lot more to Life than some people imagine. I do believe in a life after death too, and have seen more than one Ghost in my time.
Fascinating subject though. I believe that our bodies are so complex in the context of what it is capable of, that we must have been designed to last more than one life time.
Take care my friend,
NSB

interesting point has been
at the first link i posted
is the story of those who 'drowned' at the titanic
[blue island]

they were spirited away to a blue island
the blue color was supposed to assist their 'healing'

many phycic phenomina is related to fresh water
and dampness..fogs mists etc
[ie not salt water]...

from descriptions of the boundry of hell i have read
[like the oficers story..also at the link]...the boundry to the dark hell reggons..is 'like' a seathing ocean

old ones said that hell..is under the sea
but its also under the land...[maybe linked to salination]

that puts a new spin
on salt that has lost its saltyness

it seems like what lexies hubby saw
was a electonic [wrong word]..'replay'..of a funeral;
[still cant recall the right word..to decribe the phycic records
that emotive events 'replay''..on occasion]

anyhow hassa
the blue island link is a great read

also good was the experiences of laurence
of arabia's crossing over story..[also at link]
http://new-birth.net/books_life_after_death.htm

anyhow its important to know
where love is no fear can enter

the more we talk
the more there is to learn

In that long ago thread I spoke about my fathers death.
Keep it short but we had a split in the family and lived apart,it was my job to drive from Wollongong to Sydney to tell my brothers.
Minutes after I left only an hour after dad died he drove with me.
I felt him his humor and his nature love of adventure with me,think As you will it happened.
I have often woke and foretold a future even, it concerned me, I rejected it for years fought against it.
I no longer do.
My mum was isolated from some with her family, they did not except dad.
On her death [we buried her with dad her wish] anger mixed with the grief.
Her side not ours.
As we lowered mum on top of dad to coffin tilted dropping her family's flowers down to dad.
They held their breath! I said quietly it was mums wish it is ok.
Hasbeen you are quite ok not to believe, please do so, but this subject is too personal to introduce ridicule to posts answers sure you will understand mate

We are in an area that is full of fraud deception and lies.
Too full of reasons why some of us think as we do.
Christians know of the Holly spirit/Ghost can trace back in the first Bible to belief in re incarnation,yet say too no sole has risen till their God returns.
Near Death experiences often see strong Christians returning without former belief, or stronger ones haveing spoken to Christ.
We know too some are unlikely to ever see or believe in any of this, others are subject to it.
And we do not yet know the lost continents impact, our brain.
From that brain, it alone, came every book ever written every great work of art the ideals every religion is based on.
That brain, ours once understood maybe is mans God.
Do not throw away the idea these things exist.
A thousand story's are in the family history of every one of us, if we look.
Fear and terror! that is in many story's told about this, I have seen in my mind while asleep dead loved relatives in my bedroom, ones I would love to cuddle once more.
And woke in shear fear! knowing it was true, took place,as they came to say good by!

I believed in the spirit world well before coming to Christ. One night as a young boy I dreamt the winner of the Melbourne cup (the night before it happened). When I watched it in the classroom the next day it was like watching a replay. I know of one girl (far from a believer in Christ) who was terrified by a ghost she saw while at a seance. She thought it was all fun and games but literally became terrified. Jesus delivered many from demonic spirits and so it is no surprise that many still have all sorts of weird spiritual experiences. Witchcraft is very prevelant today.

Dear runner,

That's interesting. I have friends who've had bad
experiences with ouija boards and who won't go near
Tarot cards for the same reason.

I've got to admit that I'm superstitious and I wouldn't
dream of going to a seance or trying to call up any sort
of spirit - because why play with something - when you
might get more than you bargained for.

I guess I believe in the saying from Shakespeare's -
"Hamlet," :

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Dear runner,

Jules Michelet wrote 'Satanism and Witchcraft' which tells of the persecutiobn and burning of witches. At that time Christianity was mainly confined to the upper classes and the clerics who were mainly of upper class origin. The peasantry practiced their pre-Christian nature religion. The women accused of being witches were generally both priestesses of the older religion and herbal healers. The church in alliance with the doctors who were trying to gain a monopoly on healing persecuted those women to gain a monopoly of religion and medicine. Witches don't exist, and your superstition is appalling.

david f

you are certainly more aware of the history of what you call Christianity and witchcraft than what I am. What I see today is many people dabbling in all sorts of spiritual powers. I can also see clearly the fruit of those who practice such things. Many end up or at least should be in the luny bin. I think Shirley MccLaine is one such example. Interesting that many people suffering from what we call mental illness today acknowledge the spiritual realm. I have met a number of people suffering from schizophenria who acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord of the spirit world. As many people have rejected Christ they then fill the void with some other spiritual bent that does not demand they give up living in sin.

Dear runner, Shirley McClaine and the practitioners of New Age nonsense are loonies. Imagining such nonsense as a spiritual realm is an example of looniness. Acknowledging Jesus Christ or any other non-existing entity as lord of the spirit world or any other imaginary entity is looniness. If he ever existed and is not pure myth Jesus died years ago. Death is a permanent condition, and the dead stay dead. One can be free of Christian superstition and live a decent life. In my opinion part of living a good life is facing reality and discarding superstition.

Hi Lexi & Belly,
Yes, I am very sceptical of Seances, especially when people try them out as entertainment. There is a dark side to Spirituality, and in the wrong environment can be dangerous.
Hang on to your own beliefs, and cherish the priveledges of being 'forewarned', regarding certain things in life. I always listen to my inner voice, it is wiser than me.
But most of all, one does not have to be a Christian to get messages that are beneficial to the individual, and pertinent to their messenger's 'advice'. Be open to receive these messages, to become enlightened is a great experience, often found during meditation.
Cheers, my two good friends.

so much to talk about
the most damaging..is this belief in reserction day
especially where those who claim christ has risen

this one fact alone..refutes this reserction 'day'
[jesus said...se that ye see me do..ye will do greater*

[greater than god?..dont even come into it..
the son* wasnt the father][recall the first command
have none before god..!..not son/not creed..not ignorance

jesus didnt wait for reserction nor judgment day
he came back the 3rd day..![live with it]

so if you claim to follow the lord christ
know..to try to do greater

and get over
only xtians..or only jews
or only catholics..or only jehovah witness
will go to heaven..

by that insane measure all the old testment
are in hell..[and they are not..!]..try to think

use your god given reasoning
use your mind..not just the animal brain

jesus wasnt a xtian..!
nor a catholholic nor a jehova witless

belly...you have had visits from your father
and he has helped you much more than you mat think

your mothers flowers falling was your mother confirming
thats its ok son...[she knows you would have worried too much
so arranged for a 'sign'...enough to give you assurance..BUT not to take away the ability to chose*

that is sacrosanct
ie that you chose

we have heard that some fat cat died for 20 long minutes
and he says HE..didnt se nuthin...and of truth..HE didnt

he also likely would claim not to dream
this dont mean he dont dream...nor that spirit didnt try to make him hear and see in the spiritual way

vile people often take a long time to see and hear
..*in spirit..using non eyes and non ears for hearing/seeing

just like some are tone deaf..or longsighted
or nearsighted or color blind..or dont believe anything
we are all different

EVEN jesus took 3 long days
to figure out how to come back

and he was a spiritual master..

and just think..
if jesus died for us to sin
then that was made possable..by the act of judas

[who has only forgiven himself..
just relitivly recently]..[1930]

judas spent near enough to 2000 years in hell..!
because he couldnt forgive himself
yet jesus asked him to

and why>?
just so you can claim to be forgiven
lol..for ,..your sin
cause jesus died..for you

heck god dont judge no-one,..!
so god didnt want jesus dead
god is fed up with blood shedding..!
how is the life giving living god honoured by any death?

be a man..
not a kid

accept responsability..for our own sin
cause no one lived your life..but you..!

satan didnt make you do nothing
you chose..

we chose

demons can only offer suggestions..AFTER
we think the vile first..!

cheers
its called spirit
cause enough of it allows spirits..to haunt you

ever notice how drink
CHANGES people..!...[you must have noticed]

thats demic possesion
read 30 years amoung the dead
its much m,ore common than you would think

when good men
think bad thoughts
the full evil of hell lies open before them

dont think it cant happen to you
remember..where love grace mercy is
evil cant get through

so first think no evil
second thing with the filters of love grace mercy forgivness

you cant go wrong
its so simple mainly kids get it

dont abuse the child within yourself

Dear UOG,
Interesting point, I let my inner child out to play every day, I believe in Christ, as his existence has been proven. Only a few years ago, I had a phone call from my Son, who had been injured at work and had damaged his back. He tried so hard to get a job ,to no avail. He rang me up in desperation one day, near to tears, he had been hobbling around the City in which he lived at the time, knocking on doors asking for jobs. That night I prayed to Jesus and asked him to help my son, as I was at a loss to do so. That night I dreamt that I had a photo of my son on my bedroom wall, I looked at it (in my dream), the image of my Son disappeared and was replaced by an image of Jesus. I awoke with a start, and thought that my Son was dead. About two hours later, my Son called and said that he went into yet another Job Search bureau, and they offered him a job at that place. So despite the fact that I am not a Religious person, I have always believed in Christ's existence., and his powers.
Cheers,
NSB

Dear Noisy,

For many years it was widely felt that as science progressively
provided rational explanations for the mysteries of the
universe, religion would have less and less of a role to play and
would eventually disappear, unmasked as nothing more than
superstition.

But, there are still gaps in our understanding that science
can never fill. On the ultimate important questions -
of the meaning and purpose of life and the nature of morality -
science is utterly silent and, by its very nature, always
will be.

Few people of modern socieites would utterly deny the
possibility of some bigger power in the universe, some
supernatural, transcendental realm that lies behind the
boundaries of ordinary experience, and in this fundamental
sense religion is probably here to stay.

I believe in "live and let live," so to me my belief is
a private matter - I'm not out to convert anybody.
I find religious rituals such as Baptism, Bar Mitzvah,
Weddings, Sabbath services,Christmas Mass, and funerals,
important. To me these rituals serve to bring people
together, to remind them of their common group
membership: to re-affirm their traditional values;
and they offer comfort in times of crisis; and in
general they help transmit the cultural heritage from
one generation to the next.

I think that every society needs a religion, or at
least some belief system that serves the same functions.

Thanks Noisy for your advice,
for sharing with us your dreams and your
son's job hunting experience. I'm glad that things
turned out well for him in the end.

Cheers.

I wish to be careful and respectful, but at the same time honest
My mum, later dad too lead us to their Christ.
Small country towns pecking order, and miss use of the Church, drove us away.
I became a mid life born again, full on, unfortunately my hobby was ham radio.
I heard a Minister brag about the financial benefits of his job, he was unaware he was over heard on the then mobile phone.
Many things awakened me, praying over a kid with a broken arm, sending a woman with no problems on to a stage and her running off, the healers mother in law.
I no longer believe in God.
I would not touch or allowed those boards in my home.
Have spent days researching all Gods, seen links to ancient Gods of pagans long before any to todays.
My mum had favored songs of praise beautiful well crafted but nothing different than a thousand hit tunes of my day.
Not homosexual, I nearly cry if truly considering the words of that song muma I don't want to die .
Grant mankind its due we can and do make things that impress even our selves.
In the bush or on the beach at night Australians around a camp fire have true story's to tell.
Runner you know from your story not every such one is from evil.

I have a few incidents that are hard to explain, so I will tell you of the main one as briefly as possible.

When I was perhaps five my family were on a train heading for the zoo. An old guy in a old style straw hat paid particular attention to me in an avuncular fashion, do you go to school yet, what games do you like, etc, but as we left the train he asked my name and said "my boy you will be lucky today". As it transpired I found something at the zoo, and got a big reward from the owner for its return.

When I was perhaps nine I use to search for lost golf balls at the local course to sell to the pro shop. One Saturday morning an old guy wearing a straw hat came to me and said search between that tree and the rise, he went on and I found about ten balls within 20 meters of where he said, never before or after did I find so many balls in one spot.

When I was perhaps fourteen I was fishing from one of the Harbour wharves and an old guy in a straw hat came over, asked how I was doing, then suggested I fish the other side of a pole further down the wharf, I moved I fished I caught a really decent size fish, not the yellow tail and mackerel l I usually caught. This time I recalled the straw hats of the other two old guys from the previous encounters, and thought it was so familiar and weird and then promptly forgot all about it.

TBC

Shoot forward twenty years, I my wife and two kids, one in a pram, the other about four are fighting our way to the ferry to the Quay. My wife pushing the pram is about 20 meters in front of myself and our daughter, suddenly my daughter stops dead in her tracks causing me to lose grip of her hand and move some steps ahead of her. I looked back at her and she is half turned and transfixed on an old guy in a straw hat who was getting off the ferry, he too was at a dead stop and half turned and totally transfixed on her. Time stood still for me, the commuters were still pushing off the ferry I could sense the rush and see the people moving, but deep in my mind all was stopped. I grabbed my daughters hand and we just made it before the gang was pulled.

When I found my bride and seated ourselves she said "what was that", I replied honestly "what was what". She then went on to explain that as she reached the ferry she looked back to find our girl and the old guy stopped and transfixed and me looking on motionless, she said that she went cold and time slowed down for her and a fear she has never felt overcame her. At that point I recalled the other old guys and told my wife of the other weird linked events.

The old guys face escaped my memory on all occasions, even now, but the hat and old fashioned clothes along with an inner sense of familiarity leaves me only guessing of the odds involved in this scenario and this theme being reproduced throughout my life. When I was a kid the hat was old fashioned and by the last encounter the only place you saw a hat like that is in old movies. My wife took a couple of days to shake the feeling the incident brought her, and she is not a skittish kitty.

Lexi,

As someone who enjoyed reading The God Delusion, I would strongly recommend you read Sam Harris's The Moral Landscape, where he argues - and quite brilliantly too - that science does indeed have a lot to say about morality and human values.

I was sceptical at first but couldn't flaw a single point he made.

http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Landscape-Science-Determine-Values/dp/1439171211

belly...there is a god..[one]..and he is all good
all loving all mercyfull and all grace

there are from memory over a billion xtians
divided into 3000 sects..[then there are the 'other' religious beliefs assosiations etc]...none can claim to be the only way to god

god cant be judged
by what any of us/them..chose to do
to judge god is as silly as judging ourselves
to judge god..by those claiming to believe in god is equally invalid

every religeon/belief/non believer
could disappear..and god would still be
all loving mercyfull and full of mercy and grace

even the highest quality human being...called a menche
like the messiah misscalled jesus..more properly called josua
or as the bible says..'you shall call him emmanuel'..comes no where near revealing..the extreem loving of the living good..[god]

emmanuel tried to be like god is
so much so he said silly words like
to see me is like seeing our father

none could look upon the father
him being pure light...and as you know light reveals things
but is in itself invisable..untill it 'reflects'..off..something

i once demanded of the sun..
that god reveal himself to me
and stared at the sun..intending to be blind..rather than not know for sure..[i soon saw the suns emmision..go to a dull blue..and saw within the radiance an engorged nipple like blob]

that i decided upon reflection and study of it
looked much like a single cell..[of which every life has trillions]

indeed our flesh is made up of these images
cells..[of god]...thus i feel we are created...of his image
more than in his image..[we together reveal the qualities of the unseen sustainer of light/life/love/logic]

how i came to be daring god to make me blind
involves a long story...and a guy called ross kelly

he claimed to be the 7 th angel
claimed to have traveled in time..and with his wife elain
they have a good story..he told in a book called all for the love of ana..

[that has not been printed/nor published]..though he gave out copies of a letter..and in time..disks with the story..[his part of the story]

anyhow he was led..by a guy called glen
sonof golin's guy with the hat..sound of a simular being to glen
glen did far more unique things..but of essence..they sound to me of same kind

glen taught rossd many things..including syncrocity
and means of extracting logic from random inputs
that led ross through the events he recorded in
'all for the love of ana'

ana was ross's name for the feminin aspect..of god
in time i rationalised ana as representitive
of alpha/negative alpha

of course there is much more to the story
and perhaps its best that people dont know
but govts were told..and for a time govts opened up

in time they closed up again
and now with a new crop of politions
the warnings i issued with ross and others
did what was meant to be done at that time

life has a logic to it
god of course is more than just one sun
but we are undouteable sustained our life..in the main
through the sun's light..sustaining us all our lives

finding the right words to explain more
gets complicated..but lets say the sun[our sun]..is god
our god..the sustainer of life..on this planet

there are trillions of other suns in the universe
but all these channel..the same life sustaining 'forces'
that all come from the one true god..so imagine..inside the sun
is the omnipresent god

the same god that is within all living
indeed equally inside you as glen or ross
as much as inside your dog or that mossie..or indeed inside a ghost

the essential life essence..is all living all loving
even if the sun does give you sunburn

after we die..we each develop spiritually
getting ever higher spiritual evolutions
in time we all become suns of god

each having their own let there be light moment
each developing our own earth..each sustaining our own life forms

yet each knowing..the god within us
is equally within all that we sustain to live

Dear Son of Gloin,
Thankyou for your wonderful post, it brought tears to my eyes whilst reading it. I had a similar experience in NZ. Sadly my husband of 8 months at the time, confessed that he was a homosexual, I left the marriage and booked a flight home to Sydney, a broken young lady.
I waited at the terminal at a table with a cup of coffee, very uncomfortable, as sparrows used to fly around the terminal and land on tables...having a bird phobia, I was terrifed. I was the only occupant at the table, I was looking to my left, and when I turned back to the table, there was a man there, with the most gentle face I had ever seen. He started questioning me, he knew I was broken, and, scared of the birds. He just chatted to me, full of calmness and wisdom. I boarded the flight and his boarding ticket put him next to me. I looked out of the porthole of the plane, when I turned back, there was no-one there, I asked the Hostess where the man moved to, she simply said "what man, you have these two seats to yourself", I didn't freak out, but I know he was at the terminal, and I know that he was talking to me. There are some things in life that we cannot question, they remain mysteries.
Again, thanks for your post.
NSB

Dear Lexi,
I forgot to thank you for your last post. I agree that Religious ceremonies of all types and philosophies do bring people together., and I think that these friends and family gatherings, no matter how few and far between they become are an essential part of our lives. I have only one living blood relative in Australia, that is my Sister. But my Husbands' family have adopted me as their own. I will ever be thankful for that, I now have seven brothers & sisters in law, and many nieces and nephews, not to mention my great nieces & nephews.... How lucky I am to be part of this wonderful family.
Good night my friend,
NSB

NSB; >> Sadly my husband of 8 months at the time, confessed that he was a homosexual, I left the marriage and booked a flight home to Sydney, a broken young lady.<<

Noisy there are few heart aches that come with a reprieve, thankfully yours did. I say that as I consider the further psychological damage once years of companionship had passed and he had a middle aged sexual conflict, at that stage you’re really down for the count, you've been betrayed and your youth spent. Much better it came when it did, the timing gave you a future, but it doesn’t alleviate the soul ache. Perhaps your guy was a marker to a future, one you didn’t think you had at that time.

Beyond all the ritual and other paraphenalia, the one thing that all religions share in common is the chance of eternal life in some unspecified circumstance. In fact without that notion, religion itself would be utterly meaningless.

It's amazing what denial and the primal fear of death will drive people to believe.

davidf you write

'If he ever existed and is not pure myth Jesus died years ago. Death is a permanent condition, and the dead stay dead.'

A lot of people a lot smarter than you and me disagree with you and have been willing to die for that belief.

I want to leave religion, not from others posts but mine.
And after this post I will.
Every religion can not be in the name of the same God, no God surely would ever separate one human from another.
I refuse to think any human is lessor.
But in every God we can find the very best in mankind, and the worst, we can find control and road rules of life.
We can find reason to unite conform even fight and die.
If we need a God, let it be a new all inclusive one.
Remember my fear at visitations? my attempts to stop that fear.
I never had it on my mate/cousins visited.
Fishers Ghost, research it, a part of our country's history, its appearance seen by a few bought about the conviction of his murderers.
I a year after my mothers death, mowing the lawn , had made much change to our once crowded home.
Out of the silence unexpected my mum told me she was proud of me!
Self deception? why then was I not even thinking of her?
Something of great value exists that is very much a spiritual thing.
It I admit may be an unknown present from regions of our brain we do not understand, I prefer to think other than that.

Dear runner,

The fact that people died for a belief does not make the belief worthwhile or reasonable. Many people have died as a result of their support for Christianity, Nazism and Marxism. Other people live on and are of the opinion that none of those beliefs are worth a pail of warm spit.

Do you think Islam is worthwhile because many 'martyrs' have given their lives in suicide bombings? It appears to be fairly easy to get people to give their lives for an ideal. What is much harder is to get people to think and recognise nonsense whether that nonsense is your superstition or some other ideology or superstition.

Just on the subject of linking "spirituality" with Christianity. Somewhere in the bible it states that any "ghosty spiritually " stuff that goes on here on earth is NOT from God, but from the devil, OUG may have a clue on the appliant bible texts.

My father told all we kids that the only ghost we need to fear is one with two legs. My only comment on ghosts and why or where they haunt is that half a dozen places in Poland should have the shrieking of the millions of innocents murdered by the NAZI's cranking up every midnight, the witching hour. But most killing fields are quiet after dark.

Thank You everyone for sharing your thoughts and
experiences on this thread. It has been interesting
reading them all. I've read Richard Dawkins,
"The God Delusion." I actually bought a copy.
I found it to be a very worthwhile read.
However for me - it did not change my faith and what
I believe. I was raised as a Catholic, and I'm
probably not a very good Catholic. But it's my faith.
As I stated previously - I don't feel
any compulsion to convert anyone.

davidf

I realise many people are willing to die for many causes whether religous or not. The fact is that Jesus close followers were all cowardly before their Saviour died but went willingly to the grave after they saw the Resurrection Christ.

Your assertion that no believers in Christ think is arrogant and plainly wrong. You have to plainly close your eyes if you can't see design in this universe. Many greater thinkers much more intelligent than you have and do hold a belief in Christ. A thinker can easily see the sinful nature of man. It takes a little humility to accpet God's solution (something fundamentalist athiest severley lack).

Belly

You rightly point out shocking experiences you had with church/Christianity. You rightly point out corruption and disiluisment. What I find interesting is your love affair with Labour/Unions whose corruption is at such high level and yet you still defend them to death. I would of thought an honest look at all organisations reveals a corruption that we are all vulnerable to.The Liberal party certainly have had their share of corrupt figures. You obviously never got to know Christ who is still the only incorruptible One.

Dear runner,

You wrote: "Your assertion that no believers in Christ think is arrogant and plainly wrong."

I made no such assertion. Stop lying. Argue with what I say and don't put words in my mouth.

Dear Lexi,
Thankyou for your lovely post. Yes, I do believe that eveything happens for a reason, my first marriage being such a failure, led me to the most wonderful bloke in the world. We celebrate our 37th Anniversary tomorrow, we still enjoy life and have never lost our sense of humour.
Life is but one learning curve, and throws the most unexpected and sometimes cruel events at us, but if we always seek the benefits, life is not so hard after all. I love life, have three great kids and five grandkids, we are all healthy , and have absolutely nothing to complain about.
Cheers Lexi and all others, it has been a refreshing discussion compared with others.
NSB

i was raised an athiest
born and bred to trust only in science

i hated religeons
when i was still in the faulse beliefs of my father
never the less he was raised in his religeon..then rejected it
like so many..[and for logical reasons][and also some really dumb ones]

religeon is an instritution of mankind
there is very little 'spirituality'..to be found within many a church/temple/cloister..or hall..

yet families have close attatchment
it isnt important what they believe
but that they share simular beliefs in truths and in errror
[that is if they ever want to 'be' apart of a larger familiy in the next life][ie with those who believe the same things as themselves]

im an outcast from my family
an outcast even with those who know of god
i dont follow creed..nor lable nor religeousosities

i know simply..that god is real
and thats enough for me

i know im an energy being
and that this energy lives on
i know spirit is real..i know im real

but enough on what i know
lets hear what belly says

""Every religion can not be in the name of the same God,
no God..surely would ever separate..one human from another.""

mr bell..if your family seeks to be together
nothing can tear that appart

if religeons claim to be in gods name
its in their combined 'idead'..of god..in their particular form/quality of what the WANT..choose god to be...so it shall be
their idea of god will be not the true god..but heck we are free to whoreship whatever we like

no one will be allowed to prevent it
and even then its not till one dares to question 'it'
do they get tossed out of that community..and beginto seek the one true good[the only true god]

people are allowed to make their own god
if you think god is in nothingness...done..[your wish is respected]

if you*...CHOSE..to think
god is some horney old/goat..with goats feet
no worries..welcome to the realm
of the goat/god..[etc]

and you*[genericly]..are..*instantly
..with y*our..true family

where..more..
shall be a given

anyhow
lets continue

in the next/life..there is no judge..of right or wrong
what we are is writ large..upon *our soul-body..for all to see

here
we can pretend..to be 'holy'
pretend to be nice

but after death..there can be no more pretence
everyone knows..[ie all shall be revealed]..
that you can be sure of

[you used genericly..ol mate
as you*..should know..by now]

""I refuse to think
any human is lessor."'

thats totally correct ol blue

we each..got the same..god given living spirit...
sustaining us all..our every life breath..within..us all

""But in every God..we can find the very best
in mankind,..and the worst,""'

mate ..within every *faulse god..!

the..one true good/god is all loving..ALL living
ALL grace..AL mercy..etc..the true god
is all good

best/worse..""we can find
control..and follow..like the road rules of life.""

yes mate
the sheep..ARE..sorted from the goats
the tares from the wheat...those who love..sin..according to their sin

""We can find reason..to unite
or conform..or even fight and die."'

well ol mate
no one can die

yes we evolve..ever upwards/or down..

but we only disolve..the soul body..from the last life
and get..*the next soul body..we earned..in the next

we simply speaking cant die
heck the lovers..of murder..can murder
each other for eternity

the second those..with no concience forget
that they done..your back there like brandnew,ready..,to be murderd all over again ..and again and again.

for eternity..if you chose

if that's..what you love..to do..[only]..to other
BUT..*you get both sides..of the 'love'

both victim..from those..better than you
and perverted by..for those more peverted

HERE we sorted..that we love
then for eternity..MORE of the same*..SHALL BE GIVEN

""If we need a God,
let it be..a new all inclusive one.""

god will be..whatever you think him to be..!

of course
if you chose a 'faulse-god'..
it will still be YOUR god

*its your choice

god has no ego

if you want to
cast gems..before swine..[or faulse-gods]

*thats your choice

god..*is the good of love
but lets us..chose what..we love

he loves..*our passion..to love
he..*dont judge it..only ignorant..'men'..do that

if you like...LOVE*..to rip wings off flies
presto..your a fly...

with all the other fly ripper-off mob
and let go do that you all love to do

go for it you bar flies,let it rip

if your here
do unto any others here too
cause we KNOW..thats what you love to do

doing only that we love to do
can become the worst form of hell..lol

""Remember my fear at visitations?""
not really mate

""my attempts to stop that fear.""

now there is a funny thing
se many drink..this lowerrs their ability to resist
ie they are most likely to fall under the very 'in-fluences'..they fear

if people drink from fear
know there is no escape

when i drink
i canm fel my fathers mates trying to get me to drink more
trying to get me with them..so mate i smoke..cause i hate drink

i detest drinking..to excess
one or two glasses is fine
but a bottle drunk alone

mate spirits love that
heck mate you seen how a few drinks can change people

that drink ALLOWED..the very thing you said you didnt like

""visitations""

its called spirit for good reason

""I never had it on my mate/cousins visited.
Fishers Ghost, research it, a part of our country's history,"'

sounds interesting story mate
some details?..[oh they follow]..

anyhow we are also under in-fluence of good spirit
on ocasion..although by and large most are vile

but as said re[peatdly..its our thoughts
our feelings ..our emotions..that bad spirits fed off

our fear gives them, energy
they are too weak to make their own
by actually loving admiring respecting and giving

""its appearance seen by a few
I a year after my mothers death
had made much change to our once crowded home.""

she didnt leave
mothers just subornly hangon
indeed find they can 'visit'...plenty
[as in visitation]..

""Out of the silence unexpected
my mum told me she was proud of me!
Self deception?""

mate
get over it

she wisperd it..*in/to..your mind

DIRECT....!

We humans are both frail and strong good and bad.
We can be evil too, not all in the same person some times that too.
In the first thread on this subject some one Philo? not sure, told me I sounded like a Christian.
Runner charges me? with blindness and while we are at it, a total inability to see the faults of my life companions Labor and the Union.
Runner my Christianity came from a wish to believe.
Believe that all men are equal, that justice would win in the end.
That Christ would have thrown those money lenders out because they needed to be.
Judge not runner.
Now my youth was full of Christianity, my country village held sons and daughters of Missionary's in Dutch new Guinea.
Siting in our school of never more than 23 kids.
I never until late in life met a Christian who thought God was A CONSERVATIVE!
Bigotry is often displayed by the most assured Christians?
I believe in man, we have some thing we do not yet under stand, some chuckle but I also think some are not yet quite as aware or able to see and hear the other things we talk of self assurance often is deceptive.
Ever walked around your home not thinking of much and a name came in to your head.
Then soon after came to your door.
Ever stood at a loved ones grave alone and felt comforted?
pick up a photo of a dead loved one and remembered things you had forgotten.

Dear Belly,

The second anniversary of my step-father's death
is coming up on the 2nd October. Yes I shall be
ordering a Mass for him which I'll attend as well
as visit his grave at the Cemetery. And I've done
that since his death a few years ago and on this
Birthday and Easter, Christmas, and All Souls Day.

He's not forgotten. And yes It does bring me a sense
of peace talking to him.

continued

not via physical eyes..or ears..
but direct..via your spirit hearing

no one else could pick it up!
[ok a few sensatives..but these..dont hang arround people much]

once you know their true thoughts..well you chose to avoid others thought forms][its amasing how little people..really think..they emote/react..like automatic robots...

[vacant minds
vacant bodies..that bad spirits 'haunt']..

heck you [ok i]..can feel julia is channeling...
whatever re-active spirit is haunting her..at any given moment]

then like a robot
she echoes their mantra

the perfect fruit of relgous *creed
making perfect 'wives'..following husbanded instruction

""why then
was I..not even thinking of her?""

ESpecially..to let YOU know..
that SHE..was thinking..OF you..!

she was proud of YOU...
waited..till she KNEW you would 'hear'..

think of it mate

no one can hear
while they are talking
or too busy worrying..to hear/think/feel..anything else

its was her
telling YOU
no one else

but not till she..KNEW..*you could hear

[thats why many..can only visit..
when the..';consious mind'..sleeps]

just you..silent
and mum

""Something..of great value..exists
that is very much..a spiritual thing.""

i feel sorry
for those who really
believe..that this life..is all there is..lol

""It I admit..may be an unknown present
from regions..of our brain..we do not understand,""

the spirit regeon's
BEYOND..

[outside of..our 'brain]
in our mind..

[think of what is
the ';minds eye'..thats your spirit eye/ear]

[how the spirit 'sees..
and is made..seen/heard/felt..exta mind]

outside of..
consious brain/mind

its not a concious thing..
its in our sub-consious..mind..

[like we use when 'dreaming'/imagining/creating inventing]

right-brain
lateral type interactive[open/mind]..thinking
listening,..not judging

""I prefer..to think""

me to
other than that..

we think to know..what we know

who is to tell us..what
we know..or they..think we dont know

mums are great
if..it can be done

mate
no-one cant stop em

lol

go mum's..yeah*

Hello everyone... Have you missed me?...HA!

A friend of mine, a very devout Christian, and I, made an agreement years ago. If when one of us died, that person would try to let the living person know they had died, and that there was something else after life, if that was at all possible.

So one night at around 11pm, whilst sitting on the end of my bed talking to my wife, who was in bed, an apparition, (I don't like this word either), appeared in my doorway.

It was Frank, the guy I had made the agreement with. It was so clear that I exclaimed "There's Frank" and immediately walked towards the image.

As I did the image moved in full view along the hall and out a bathroom window towards the moon. Frank was only in my view for probably 5 seconds maximum. That was the one and only time it happened.

The next morning, the telephone rang advising me that Frank had passed away at around 11pm the previous night.

I was flabbergasted.

I could only conclude that Frank had dropped in to say goodbye, and to keep our agreement. Frank lived in Melbourne and I in Brisbane.

NO, I hadn't been drinking and was not on any drugs or medication.

Sadly, my wife didn't see Frank, (so there goes some corroboratory evidence), because when I jumped up, I actually walked between where she was and the doorway where Frank appeared.

I was a complete sceptic in those days and had virtually given up on all forms of spirituality.

That event re-opened my mind, and I have kept a very open mind to this day.

I can only give you my word that this happened, and now that theoretical physics and theoretical mathematics have suggested a real possibility of 11 dimensions... Anything is possible!

I'm not ruling it out, but I'm on the fence about it. I haven't seen any proof but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've never seen a polar bear but that doesn't mean polar bears don't exist.

What an interesting thread. I especially enjoyed sonofgloin's narrative--worthy of a short story.
Of course we must always be wary of the childish human propensity to find patterns and descry meaning in ordinary events. And yet, the scepticism of the rationalists is a little too hasty and disposed to assign insultingly simplistic causes to our delusions. Delusions they no doubt are, but delusionary too is the rationalism that shines its feeble light in dark places and gives the all-clear as if it had the foggiest.
There's a great mystery at the centre of life that eludes us all, the soothsayers and the naysaysers.

Happy we are still talking and just want to underline I am not trying to chase holders of any view away.
It is part of many religions to believe in reincarnation and it is said some have to be so many more times than other because they are not quite as evolved as others.
True story's, deliberately leave out the ones I do nor trust.
ww1 local family saw brother/some/uncle in middle of room, at the time he died in France.
Warnings, do not get on that plane,did not and it crashed.
Intense work place debate , not holding my ground lost battle for workers rights.
Last second thought lets take a break.
From no place answer came in to my head.
A girl, Ghost, visits house not far away folks can be trusted.
Deception fits the girl I saw dead out side that house,the one raising the early morning alarm, but that house has been moved and rebuilt.
Just as I mentioned the magic of a Queens song, for that matter all of them, mans mind is deep and wide.
Even if it is only imagination, I do not think it is, why is our mind doing it?

Dear Belly,

I was once talking to my aunt. She told me she had called her son and there was no answer. She said, "Naturally, I expected the worst."

Well, the worst hadn't happened. Nobody was home at her son's house.

Bad things happened in her family. Her daughter, my cousin, became pregnant by her boyfriend who went off to fight in WW2 and was killed shortly after. Her daughter then committed suicide. Other bad things happened.

She had a lot of premonitions of disasters that never happened. To the best of my knowledge the disasters that did happen came with no warning.

In this discussion we have had accounts of seeing someone in the room at the time of their death. It may have happened. It may be a reconstructed memory due to grief. Accounts of seeing a person in the room who was in good condition don't get told but possibly happen.

I had a dream at the time of the 9/11 atrocity which I told this list about. I have had other vivid dreams which were not accompanied by any significant event so I have forgotten the details. I have not told this list about them as there's nothing much to tell. The 9/11 atrocity fixed the dream at the time in my memory.

The human mind does have spiritual links to other persons, especially in the case of identical twins, even if separated at birth. This of course is not life after death as ghosts. I personally believe that before language became a formal structure that humans could communicate much more by emotional telepathy.

its one of them 'days'
phillo and david are both right

and then there is bellies intersting hint

[more details belly re the girl..and her location
[ie with the moved house or where the house was?]

anyhow as david said
we all have had the feeling of impending doom
and nothing happend

to try to explain that aspect a bit more
the bible and other holy texts..mention much about the futility of fear..

but as usual they fail to explain..why fear
should be avoided..

[allways look at the bright side of life]...

why?

because fear feeds off itself
[or rather fear gives energy to demons

who wisper in that still quiet voice..MORE fearfull things
because our fear energy..that we emit when 'in fear'..is energy

to the dark beings[dark spirits]
lost souls..living in dark souls...

;note..not black people..as in negro pigmentation
all colours and all creeeds can have dark or light soul forms

jesus was of course not 'white'..but a tanned [ok brownie]...with blueish/gery hued eyes..and nut brown hair..[that curkled as it passed his ear line]

then there was philo's contribution
""The human mind does have spiritual links..
This of course is not life after death...such as ghosts.""

the big reveal of the old and new testyment
is that of sorting by type manner love/hate..[sheep goats tares wheat etc]

virtually forgotten is that of re-incarnation
because siomehow they thought to reveal we lierally can be reborn...would encourage us to try less[to not try to resit sinning]

so much the re-incarnation stuff stays unspoken
like the king that re=incarnated as a 'beast of the field',,for 8 years

but this topic isnt about really being 'born again materially..but spiritually [i hope]....though some call jesus re appearing..but not 'being recognised till he spoke'..as hinting at a reincarnation..[except you cant re-incarnate..as a grown man,lol]

never the less think of those most vile in our histry
who would like to be stalin or hitler..for eternity
some just beg god for another shot

or are just so vile they 'naturally' sink to the woumb like pits of the lowest hell..to get wormholed back into this realm..the 'proper' way..via that 9 mth brain washing called pregnancy

philo..""I personally believe
that before language became a formal structure
that humans could communicate much more by emotional telepathy.""

this too hints at the truth
swedenberg and others have reveakled there are at least 9 other..'humanoid'..'races..in the universe..these primitive..pre menches...pre huh-mans spirit conversion incarnations

lack the spiritual evolution..to comprehend writing..or often even basics of language..[and the commune direct with 'angels'..often by telepathy

just like most
prefer to commune in the next life
direct mind to mind communication..

once your not assulted..by vile thinking

hence the need to sort the 'sheep' etc..here..!
and why 'our fathers house'..has many rooms/

realms/levels and plains
[swoops/loops vallies and peaks..so to speak

we all love and hate different things
but there aint no walls or fences
that keep the sheep from the goat

not even that sepperates heaven from hell
its just cause we cant fake it there

it works perfectly
evil simply cant pretend to be good
man cant pretend to be god..etc etc

Sorry must back track, not the direction I wished to take the thread but must not be excluded.
Some are saying to talk about such as this is anti Christian.
Now surely not, the Holy Ghost numerous spirits that are mentioned in the Bible.
Christians who have faith should consider God created everything.
From our leaving the caves till today man has always thought he had company.
A person who never went to Church a day in their life will at a grave side say look after him/her mate to the Sky.
I was shocked to hear of a congregation of ministers and priests meeting on mountain tops!
At night to pray! said to be the home of evil those hill tops area place of piece in the middle of Forrest's me.
I believe all religions come from our need to believe in some thing to explain why we, at some level think an afterlife exists.

Dave yes my encounter with my dead dad was after his death, but what about the man who was my best Friend and cousin?
9/11 used to sleep much better then worked up to 17 hours straight.
Woke only in part unsure why came out and turned TV on still very sleepy.
Watched the second plane hit the tower, thought I was watching movie, soon wide awake but why.
OUG my role took me to road trauma incidents, it took me to that one.
Car crash in front of a house I had known the owner of,she died there.
Trauma all around that house, its owner shot himself on learning he had cancer.
Home moved,to near me, a fully loaded semi trailer drove thought it!
Rebuilt, mate bought it, then sold it.
That young girl? visits seems to be looking for something.
73 dead persons on this once death strip all road trauma.
Generations of road workers live still in those nigh mares, and just a couple tell story's of seeing or feeling those folk.

i dont think we need concern belly
this conversation..[of opinion]..offers no danger

to the first law
[freedom of choice to belief
or dissbelieve..whatever we chose to believe]

im sorry if you believe
[were led to believe this]

'"i was shocked to hear of a congregation
of ministers and priests..meeting on mountain tops!"'

shocked is a big word mr bell
starled perhaps..because it dont seem 'right'

who is to judge right
we dont got the true facts to judge anything..not anyone

look at the reason
for your 'shock'

""At night to pray!""

it isnt that they pray 'at night'?
mate my kids said their prayers 'at night'
many kids pray at night..ok they dont know why

so lets egsamin why
because in primitive times people believed we died at night
[look at a sleeper..for all intent they 'look' dead
but we know they arnt

then there was ther superstition
that demons could come to us..in our dreams
and other such nonsense

but the real value of prayer
is that we go to sleep feeling right with god
end the day...with thanking god for the good things of the day

heck mate...the next day starts with our sleep
not the other way arround..[recall there was 'night'
before god created day...with the words 'let there be light'

many people say that sundays rest
begins on saterday night..

that monday..begins on sunday night
[david will confirm]

the sabath was made for man
god never rests

but maybe your shocked cause of this
""said to be the home of evil""

mate jesus and satan sat on the mountain
but we know from kiddy stories troll live under bridges..in dark places

heck the holiest place..in jerusalem
underr that huge golden temple dome..in jerusalem
that good people of many beliefs fight over..was the very mountain top

where many great hioly..events too place
where jacob laid his head on..that stone
the british speaker sits on in brit govt

the place where mahomoud accended to 'heaven'
maybe where mosus got the laws..or the solomans temple sat

who knows myth and legend ,..mate
just like

""those hill tops area
place of peace..in the middle of Forrest's me.""

mate
if we find peace in our heart
we are with god

wether in the lowest parts of hell
or the highest mountain top

god lies..within us all
wherever we are..there love is
if we only knew it..lived by it

god's biggest 'sign/proof'
lies in nature...life
inside all life

to know god..seek to know life
without judging..live by egsample
live and let live..our words mean nuthing

our works...deeds..
are saying much more than any words

how we judge others
is how we will judge ourself

thats why hell is full of proud but fair people
judging themselves..much too harshly

god has infinite grace
if only we showed the same grace
there would be much less dis-grace..to judge others by

I doubt OUG any of us at some level do not wish for such as you ask.
And I do too, posts from many here got me interested NSB and Lexi David and others.
I can not avoid my regrets,we did get bogged down in religions.
We have many Gods, and to this date not one of them has bought us long lasting peace.
Not one stopped us killing each other or watch others starve to death.
While putting enough uneaten food in to our rubbish bins each week to feed one family.
Forgive me, you will often find me confronting conspiracy theory's from arjay, you, and Sonofglion.
But do not think I do not believe in conspiracy's, I very much do.
A TRUE, STEP BACK, HONEST LOOK AT Christianity will show it is no longer the force it once was.
It is stronger in places of the very poor and less educated areas.
That can be said about any religion.
However, more than others,Islam is growing,recruiting in the west.
Filling a need?
I think we need a link to spirituality.
To think we are not moths having our single flight around the candle.
My introduction of great man made music was to show evidence for my view within us all greatness lives.
Look at the Hymns you love most,remember those words of comfort are not from a Bible.
No one disputes man made them.
I understand fraud lies deception lives in such as this but if something after life does not exist other than Christianity I have deceived myself.

Dear Belly,

There is a Talmudic saying that we are born with fists clenched and die with hands open. We grab at life and then let go. That's it.

Pagan burial mounds and pyramids contain replicas of objects or even sometimes even animals and people who are killed to accompny the great one into the spirit world.

The above are two views of life after death. I think the second one is a symptom of ego and power. Those who hold power want to take it with them. They can't let go. That idea has pemeated with the spread of Christianity and Islam to all the believers in those faiths. Eternal life is available for all believers. It's essentially a democratisation of the idea that life beyond the grave is available for only the rich and powerful and those that serve them.

I think the Jewish view conforms to reality.

im allways..glad to hear..from david
as i have..so many questions..he could clarify

like solomans wisdoms
often read like homo/erotica
that when combinded with unwed priests
and all nuns being wed to the one 'christ'

just sounds..like we are missing
the big..why..[re homosexual marriage]

there is also in the bible..much made of..the line back to david
and infact two slightly different..geniologies are presented
that link both john..[born from a priestly union/motherd by a very old..[87]year old mother

then a few months later
a virgin..that gave birth..to jesus
[yet the angel..says you shall call him..emmanuel;god with us]

the essian scrolls..say much about the good/and the bad teacher

jesus was a follower..of the most holy john..and
only after john was killed..took up the role of messiah..[unwillingly]

there is also..the confusion..of the messiah of the jews
that reportedly..will vanquish..a specific people
is this messiah..a peace maker..or some war demon

much of the ol tesiment..'prophecy'
expected the messiah..at the time of john miraculous birth
and at that time...a virgen..was simply an unwed woman

darn there are so many..serious questions
could you have a try..at answering a few?

im told that..in this day and age
verifying who specificly..comes from david
might be..'complicated'

and why david..[a male line]..wouldnt
having a matriarchal decent..have a more specific certainty

there are questions..i feel
deserve serious consideration
like jew wasnt adam and eve..or even
the fact that we had no vowels

thus much..of what we call true...cant be true..in word

there is also the ritual
of welcomming..the long lost 'son/daughter'
as long as you can proove..you got a jewish mum

then..there is the cemetry...that lies
in the place the messiah..must? emerge from
where many jews..get laid to rest..for preferential reserction?

it seems..we are all..cousens..all jew..[jew mean..ab/origonal]
but that we cant seem to get things straight[we all come..from eve]

we know man...[no man]..can 'be' god

please david..offer some leadership..[instruction]..clues
if only for..your name sake...

[and the house of levie..the priest class?]

anyhow..i undestand if its some secret
but general knowledge..would be appriciated..[or even heresay]

shouldnt we be clear...here?

David, yes you have a point.
But I think I may have too.
3 Gods dominate our world, many exist as well.
But the God of the Jews we are told is ours too via his son.
The God of Islam seems to have followed both in the order set out.
The roots of all three can be traced back much further to the reason we Celebrate Christmas at that time.
To dennie spirits is to take away the feet from under every God.
I understand our brain may take control, grant us dreams, but if so why when we are awake.
And why when they bring fear and the unexpected.
If belief in God can sustained surely the belief we talk of can too.
With the same questionable evidence, at least more say they see hear and feel Ghosts.
Dave/OUG you will be surprised, but in truth I think man should have his Gods, I prefer one.
If we invented him/her today God would give, as all Gods do, boundary's to live within, we need them.
But I too think we have matured, grown out of a them vs us God.
Our invention should be for every one,who needs him/her one people one God .
I will continue to hold myself accountable for my actions, try to live the good and ignore the bad from my COE upbringing.
And to listen, smell,watch, for the substance of the odd shadow in that other room.

Belly,

I think the problem is that spirituality and religion are permanently linked in most people's minds because religions have led the understanding of spirituality but within really confined boundaries.

These boundaries are the misinterpreted old dusty books that they hold dear and yet are so suspect in their origin and their answers.

People by their very natures can't resist joining a club, but is it the right club?

I can keep spirituality and religion very separate, because I can at least see that there are too many flaws in the old books and the policies derived from them.

If a God exists he/she/it is far greater than the weak human qualities ascribed to him by man.

If people could only step back from their dogma and look at spirituality from within, from their hearts, maybe we would gain further insight.

Someone once said the kingdom of heaven is within, but then also talked of ascension.

Spirituality needs to be set free!

Opinionated2,
It was Jesus who said,"the kingdom of heaven is within". The kingdom of God is demonstrated by attitudes, actions and relationships. It is more than a belief about, it is a life made worthy by acting upon its aspirations and beliefs.
.
The real person is not the ever changing and perishing body. The real person is the character, attitudes and actions that impact and change persons and society. It is this person's spirit that is accountable to the judge of life and time.

It is that character that lives on past death.

Dear Belly,

You wrote an interesting sentnece

"I think man should have his Gods, I prefer one."

You prefer a God. Fine! Then have one. Why do you feel you can prescribe for others what they should have? I feel no need for a God, but I wouldn't deny it to others.

In answer to the last three posts I found all interesting.
First I believe in no God.
So spirituality for me is quit separate.
My intensive reading on this subject has me thinking this.
Our leaders/ religion/tribal clans needed control.
Few of us would question that if our subject was A native witch doctor.
We would have little trouble remembering our mums and dads warning us about a non existent beast or wild man to keep us close to home.
Such I think, is the birth pace of Gods, my view about one God, was tempered so not to insult Christians, even runner who inferred my politics makes me a lesser being.
In truth that straw/God, if needed should in my view be one of inclusiveness.
I truly think past Kings Queens Tribal leaders have twisted God to warm up the warriors us/against the ungodly.
Hope that settles it.
I however very much agree if a God exists we do not yet know him.

belly/quote..""First I believe in no God.
So spirituality for me is quit separate.""

dont think im picking
but so many would agree with you

but think of it like this..if spirits are real
then 'god' must be real..

realise that a church
or a religeon
or a group of like minded scientists
all collectivly 'do'..that co-operativly...which defines their assosiation

to wit 'the church'..or the govt...or the science
[regardless if the mater is 'settled']

any group usually has its 'leader'[or figurehead]
like govt has its president..athiest inc has david..
the church has 'the pope'...and the spirit ruling collective..has god

they collectivly would do all
that the one god is honourd as doing

god is within you
god sustains me my life too

all life is sustained..by the collective at=one-meant
[collective atonement]..

we know as
the all living all loving good..[god]

yes we are divided now
we have kings and lords
but later on..we combine our spiritualised good

even if only to serve the collective good...
and your personal god gift..the one good sustaining all life

sepperated/devided...here...and there
but at one highest level..of heaven..the god level
is affectivly..indesputably...'god'

who even in the spirit hereafter..
sustains us all our life ...our logic..our union of love

and god said
let there be light
and behold we all did our best

acting so collectivly..*
no one even noticed the god of the gaps

even so as long as spirit is unseen
so too is god unseen...[and you sure wouldnt want to deney the ultimate love..that which is gods alone]

not one of you can declare the truth
or reveal the faulsity..of one good living loving god

to say you believe in spirit
means you believe in his collective goodness

anyhow
there is a good god
just one..live with it..its certainly not worth dying over

dont burn bridges
one day you just might be in a dark place
and then like so many others..all of a sudden..you know there is a god

when the little light comes on..!

belly..""My intensive reading on this subject has me thinking this.""

think of it..like this
mostly..i read authers..who are 'dead'

but..their spirit..is reflected..*in their words
[so i can feel..i know them..by their words]

but in the next life...their full life story is there with them
in fact every person..*involved with both sides..of every event
that ever happend...

is there in the afterlife

where there are no secrets
where we need but ask..and the very people
who were there..in their own time...can show us

a replay of what actually happend
[knowing they know..cause
*they were there..IT HAPPEND

TO THEM..!

there..we can find jesus..find the guy..that speared him
talk with both of them..one to one

EVERYONE
who ever lived
is there NOW..in spirit

there are the deciples..there is mosus..there is budda
there is jfk..there is lee harvey oswald..there is einstein

there is darwin..there is plato..there are the best
AND worst..that can explain DIRECT..what really happend..

in..*their mortal life..and
every bit of spirit life..ever since

there you can hear..beethovens latest symphony..LIVE*
there you can watch rembrant paint..
[ask him..*to teach you to paint]

so mate..look at it like this
there..[in the realm]..of spirit
is the very best and worst..leaders..thinkers/scientists

they all know*
there is a god

they KNOW...!

what are we..to think we know there isnt

THEIR spirit..KNOWS

even if there is no 'god'..THEY are there
and ya think that ALL THAT BRAIN*power..
cant do simple things..like a big bang

or begin life
or any thing..it/they choses to do

EVERY thought ever thought..is there
every life that ever lived..LIVES there

RIGHT NOW...

""Our leaders/ religion/tribal clans needed control.""

ya think things changed?

""Few of us..would question that
if our subject..was A native witch doctor.""

how much more
the collective living minds
of all that ever lived..ALL IN THE SAME TIME?..space/place

""mums and dads...is the birth pace of Gods,""

think please mr bell
we both..will be there soon
laughing at how silly..we thought..*here/now

there..is your mum
your mothers mum..and dad

all their family..most of their pets

EVERYTHING..that ever lived..!
is there...right now..!

mate
NO ONE LIVES FOREVER..here

most..live a short life here
then we live..eternally there

heck we served our [life]time..served our lif/ sentance
then go home..to rejoin all our others

it cant happen..here

but will happen..there

""God,..was tempered
so not to insult Christians,""

by people..who thought god was thunder lol
or that 'god was a crankey ol dude

ie..by those
young in their faith

mate..think how much smarter..we are now
than even our parents

or think how much smarter..our kids than us
or how much more educated/informed..THEIR kids

the TRUE good god..is..""one of inclusiveness.""
you can bet ya house..[afterlife]..on that

""past Kings Queens Tribal leaders
have twisted God..to warm up the w0rriors us/against the ungodly.""

mate..most say..if only we could take back
the silly things..we said or did..here*

but..we must be allowed to grow up..logicly
*by our own free/choices..

[who would dare 'sin'..if they only knew 'good']

we must not forget
NO ONE IS JUDGING US..!

not ever..[as jesus said
''let ye without sin..not cast..the first stone',..!

we all made mistakes
EVERY single one of us

yes even jesus
even you
even me

only one..[god]
is perfect..!

only one..KNEW us..*and loved us
from before..we were even born

""Hope that settles it.""

nothing gets settled..till the last spirit
has had an equal chance..to live in ignorance..[here]

so we are ALL..allowed
a free choice..[with god knowing
in the end..we all will..*chose love]

ok some take longer than others
but in the end..

god knows we all ..'get it'

""I however..very much agree..if a God exists
we do not yet know him."""

it dont matter a hoot..wether we know him
what is important..*to him..is..*he KNOWS us..!

was with us
our every step
was with us..with every thought
was within us..with every heart beat

drew for us
our every breath..
[if we thunk it,.,he knows it]

he is..*all living
all grace
all mercy

to know him..is as simple..as doing
the love/grace/mercy/charity thing..!

heck mate..you allready know him
more important..*he knows/loves,,..you

dont sweat on it brother..[neighbour]
god hates no/one

OUG I doubt the thread got deeply in to the subject.
The lst one on this subject both explored religion and the mystery's of this subject.
My belief is as a former follower of your God.
So I have some idea of both sides.
Cynic or realist, others may make up your mind what I am.
But this is my belief.
First humans wanted answers to the Sun and the moon.
Noises in the dark night and some, more inventive than others found answers for them.
Look at the brilliance of the rainbow serpent head firmly in a gully as it digs yet another stream, or is it just the sun reflection on rain drops.
Like the people of my childhood who told every kid the same story.
Of an ugly man riding a push bike who kidnapped children who never returned.
Horrible story's about him soon took root,we helped invent the monster that existed only to see we stayed away from strangers and came home before dark.
Power came to the best story teller/strongest rules to support that power came too.
Today mate, those at one end of religions, the truly broken, find a hole to hide in, a warmth they need to say you are ok now.
At the lowest point in life people from within a Church who WANT to serve offer hope.
Those people, both the hurting and the helping exist to prove the unprovable.
And first and last seek and you will find, a shaman, in any of the names they take , a performer of tricks and magic.
Will produce in the end an expected result.
Do not put visitations Ghosts deja view in that box.
Unexpected, often bringing fear and shock, such things are not in any way related to God.
A wish/willingness to praise any God for positive outcomes to grant him/her the goodness.
Can only blind us to why the bad is given to not an all powerful God but the devil!
Man is inventive.
But did we invent, without knowing it the things this thread is about? why then?

belly let me reply your last question first

""Man is inventive.''

because he dreams

""But did we invent,..without knowing it""

no we think..of a topic
then our minds link in our dreams
to others thinking n the same topic

did we invent.."the things this thread is about?""

let me give you an egsample
tonight...[or at your next nap]

go to 'sleep'..thinking of mum
playing chess

its likely she will show you a new game
a new way to play that same old game

likely she will show you how to play short chess
or she might show you *diagonal chess..
[or queen chess,,or rookie chess..;..
which is much like chekers]

or even blindman chess
or guess chess

[heck i should patent them names
but spirit thunk them not me]

""why then?"'

to get you and mum..on the same 'wavelength'
to link up..get in synche..your like minds

it dosnt need to be about chess

just something you both will be sharing
like on your birthday..she would desperatly have ben thinking of you

anyhow it will either work or not
or you might forget...

[sometimes our minds refuse to change
or cant accept the mess-age]

anyhow ol dog..
show you can l-earn new tricks

i will post this
then get on with replying..
your other...lessons/teaching's
assistances..thanks for helping bro

""others may..make up your mind's..what I am.""

mate..its not for others to say
but i know here..you are loved and respected

you self taught...and are just fair..and
open..heaven will rejoice..when you come home

""First humans..wanted answers
to the..Sun and the moon."'

and like everything important..to them ever since
studied it..developed theories..and kept records

in time..we studied many things

made science..invented[lol]..math/writing
churches..schools..sepperated the real from the sur-real
went with what others could 'believe'..that we could proove..to others

and..let yet others
be labled as mad/holy..for simply believing
in things..science cant PROOVE..because it was personal proof

""Noises..in the dark night
and some,..more inventive..than others..found answers.[solution]..

for them.""

and imaginative..[the dreamers]
not..the left brain..science method..materialist fanatics

but..the right brain visionaries
who trusted..only in the things..their own eyes see..
or their own ears 'hear'..their..own felings felt

who looked at the earth splitting apaert
like a cod fish swimming up stream..
saw how the river was created

saw the rocks moove[walk]
or as you said it

""Look at the brilliance..of the rainbow/serpent head
firmly..in a gully..as it digs..yet another stream,""

as bobby k said..jfk said
some people see things..as they are
others dream dreams..that can never be

some got the words
the/science
the/theory..or the fact

""or is it just..the sun reflection/on rain drops.""

or lost in the poetic mists of time
lost in thought..or just lost in the meta of rhyme

""Like the people of my childhood
who told every kid the same story.""

but it was 'their' story
now people watch tv..to watch others nightmares

""Of an ugly man
riding..a push bike
who kidnapped children..who never returned.""

or the monster
in..the billy-bong

to keep the kids
from places..they dont belong

""Horrible story's..about him..soon took root,
we helped..invent the monster that existed..only to see
we stayed away..from strangers..and came home before dark.""

then they told us..about santa/clause..and that rabbit
*with eggs

then we..went to school
and they showed us

a fish..[with legs]
gave us genesis..then..a big bang

told them of dark matter...
and we played..the platters too

told our kids the same spin
so they wouldnt 'stand out'..be labled 'different'

''Power came to the best story teller
strongest rules..to support that power came too.''

""those at one''..EXTREEMIST.''end of religions,"
with fixed..[broken] minds..and spouting exclusive right..[greed]..and indoctrinated creed..self serving need

""the truly broken,
find a hole to hide in,
a warmth...""

from a warm gun
or some exploding fertiliser

""they need to say..you are ok now.""

as their victimes come direct to heaven
as they go directly into hell

""At the lowest point in life
people from within a Church..who WANT to serve offer hope.""

are stuck in small cells
are outcast as heritics
when by right they were all saints

unite the church father
luther.eddie.all the creeds..founders
see them for the true teachers sent by god they really were

""Those people,..both the hurting
and the helping exist..to prove the unprovable.""

ahhhh men mate
great turns of phrase
often we can only find a feeble light
but by..being in the darkest of dark night

[by twi-light..both a white and a black thread look grey
indeed day isnt come..till we can tell...
white from black..[good from ill]

""And first and last
seek and you will find,""

we all get there together
none shall be left behind..we can win
till no one looses

""a shaman,..in any of the names they take
a performer of tricks and magic.""

in the next life
if you can evision the complete thing in your mind
it is made real..simply with your mind focus

just like god did here
with his seeing the word..'light'..in his minds eye FIRST

[in the beginning was the word]
and the word..indeed all the words]..were in gods minds eye FIRST

just like in the end
our words,,""Will produce in the end..an expected result.""

god grants our most feverant wishes
dont judge right or wrong in granting it

so be carefull for what we really beg for
we just might be given it

In an effort to revisit the very heart of the threads intent I have been surfing! the web, still swim well there.
Read a page of letters, from dead people.
Aways find such hard to believe but not written by your average bloke.
From a book many mansions written by no less than air chief marshal who bombed Germany in ww2.
Lots more floating on those waves today, reincarnation Ghosts, BUT [when will we contribute enought to get ways of highlighting here] I see fraud there often.
So here , in gods Ghosts, after life, goblins, name them all,seek and YOU WILL FIND.
But look now at the near deaths, some never considered after life.
How did they travel and return.
How, sitting in that car, all the way from that coastal city to Sydney did I grief stricken and shocked find my dad sitting beside me.
On a sunny day mowing that lawn, thinking ONLY of my after noon trip to a beach, the sand I would bring back and sea weed to put on a garden bed, did I hear, or think I did,from mums old chair on the veranda her voice saying I am proud of you.
Remember know for sure I had no thoughts in my head I was aware of about her.
Last our mind is our comfort but too our torture for some.
But ordinary people tell these story's too.

if you could post a link
that would help

or better yet 'quote'..the bit that confuses
or sounds wrong...[its as easy as holding down the left click button
and dragging it to the end of a specific quote..then clicking copy]

and then pasting it
like i do now

i pointed the arrow...at this

""But look now at the near deaths,""
then the writing went blue
and i right clicked on save

came here and right clicked paste

but you were saying..'look' at near deaths
where im presuming you read..that
""some never considered..[the]..after life.""

and its true
just like dreams..some 'comeback''..and instantly forget
much like we forget dreams..

recall packer..he came back and said there is nothing
cause he was spiritually speaking blind/deaf

after his 'death'..[in time]
others finally got through..to him
but it takes 'some'..a long time to see in the herafter
others instantly see the light...[i think the more fear..the harder it fgets to see]

""How did they travel and return.""

without knowing which
specificly..'traveled'..and 'returned'

i can say its well recorded...here

http://www.angelfire.com/ne/newviews/life.html

opps link deleted

ok try here
http://www.ghostcircle.com/_ebooks.html

this one explains the 'leaving'
of those who died on the titanic
http://www.ghostcircle.com/ebooks/William%20T%20Stead%20-%20The%20Blue%20Island%20Pardoe%20Woodman%20&%20E%20Stead%20.pdf

this one is from the officer
his sequal
http://www.ghostcircle.com/ebooks/JSM_Ward%20-%20A_Subaltern_In_Spirit_Lands.pdf

his first book is on the first link i posted
http://www.divinetruth.info/naturallovepathdocuments.htm

this one explains..more of the after life
http://www.ghostcircle.com/ebooks/Anthony%20Borgia%20-%20Life%20In%20The%20World%20Unseen.pdf
[it might be the secon sequel
but i shifted pages to get the other [first book link]

BUT THAT TOO MIS COMMING UP ERROR
as fast as i post them..others take them down

i hope you visited when i said
cause that info now is gone too

anyhow another link
http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/sacredthemesconly.html
[not really relitive]

""How, sitting in that car,
all the way from that coastal city to Sydney
did I grief stricken and shocked..find my dad sitting beside me.""

ask him mate
we can talk..he was letting you know
they can stop web sites..but we KNOW..we can comunicate in live time

direct with the source

anyhow im angry the links have been killed

signing off

OUG thanks few can see why I had to ask you how to post a link.
And say what they like, you took the time to tell me.
Things obvious to some are unknown to many.
My generation mostly is afraid of these things,computers.
I could post a thousand such links, but have little faith in them.
I could tell a thousand second hand story's but not prove one of them.
We all of us, should try to remember our age differences gives us far different story's to tell.
Radio valve radio was our source pre TV.
Sitting in the dark, only the open fire and story's being told,to keep us warm I even have a stock of Aussie Larikin fake Ghost story's.
But I can not turn my back on about a dozen from people who still, are afraid of the unexpected visit they once had.
Goggle near death experience and after life.
Then reincarnation.
A dip then in to real life Ghosts, divide by ten and just a few story's may stay on your what was that list.
Even just re read the story's a few told here base your judgment on this
Why would we lie?

belly i know of none
who try harder to keep informed,,than yourself

i am interested in the sites you visited..if only to try to correct...errors so many of such sites carelessly continue to reveal

aas i noted earlier...sites i mention seem to disapear
thats why i asked for a quote..[that at least stays here at olo]
that helps the context of our talks

i find you reveal so much when you post
so its easier for me to copy your posted comment

so i pointed my mouse at
this following word..and copied it..after it went blue

so saying i now paste it

""My generation mostly is afraid of...computers.""

i recall my first car
so many bottons..but in time i realised most didnt do much
its much the same with computers..mouse/right click..is the one i use the most..

""links..have little faith in them.""

sure links can be changed
or deleted...[lol so much..for everything*..on the web being 'forever']

""I could tell..hand story's but not prove one of them.""

mate i know you dont lie
you must know your stories are important
at least record them to relevant topics..so others can hear

""We...try to remember our age differences
gives us far different story's to tell.""

yes mate..but our generation..
usually..isnt on line..to tell them

""Radio valve radio was our source pre TV.""
as i write i listen to the bbc...beside me are 23 books
[and 6 old dead computers]

""I even have a stock of Aussie Larikin fake Ghost story's.""

when we are face to face
we can usually telll lie/from possable true
here you just add in...that it could be..or cant be true/faulse

its important..to write them down mate
let others decide..if they believe it..or not

""But I can not..turn my back..on about a dozen
from people..who still,..are afraid of
the unexpected visit..*they once had.""

im writing..to try to remove..fears

[look mate..we all die...i have faced death..a few times

i know my spirit..cant die..no spirit can..!

all spirit belongs to god

so thew away fear..[mainly cause i didnt want to face god..[or my guardian angel..in stupid materialistic fear]

i know..no one can hurt my soul..only me
[my spiritt..heck everyones spirit..belongs to god]

""Goggle near death experience..and after life.""

thats too general
all you get is the pap
look i will explain

the first word..in any search..gets priority
so near..gets rated as 40% important...death then rates 30%
and experience..20%

read the address bar..[next to the arrows]
http://www.google.com/search?q=near+death+experience..and+after+life

darn somehow the...'%'..dont show up
but we move on..[but note the '+']
the search q..[question]...is..=..near..PLUS death..etc

""Then reincarnation.""

mate its better to skip simply stories
i find it best to read a full book
that tells a full story

preferably on pdf..[and free]..
and immediatly available

try this one
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/wsl/index.htm

its still up for now
it revealse so much more..than mere stories
[it would make a great movie]

'Why would we lie?'

why would they
its free

give it a try
then ask questions

put up a link..to the page
you cant believe..

i would love to try to explain

OUG it is the concept I do not trust, not individual sites.
Life has told me in capital letters people deceive each other, printed or spoken word is not without that deception.
This area is subject to other influences.
People want to believe,want to influence others.
I am not going looking for those sites again, every one needs your own thought not mine as to belief.
I rather think the few who told us here their story's are evidence enought for me.
I too think some experiences are unknown influences our brain telling us story's for reasons unknown.
And firmly that some have story's to tell but avoid doing so, public exposure in such a thread being a bridge too far for them.

belly/quote..""it is the concept I do not trust,""

thats so funny ol mate
i dont trust the 'concept'..of global warming
believing they only want my tax

and i dont accept the concept
that govt can tax my smokes
that govt can take half my pay

here we got a concept
lol..that people dont trust
yet the swallow other concepts
designed to control their life...designed to plunder their cash

and them they can swallow...lol

""Life has told me in capital letters
people deceive each other""

yep mate..so does poli-tricks
so does a spam email..but mate look at the joke

""A Wanderer in the Spirit Lands
by Franchezzo..(A. Farnese)
published..in[1896]""

this has been arround
for over 100 years
find where others have refuted it

sure..""printed or spoken word
is not without that deception.""

just look at the fed constitution
or the 900 pages of the new tax law..lol..on carbon

or the alp formation documents
or court records

""This area is subject to other influences.""

influences that have instant karmic comeback
then eternal spirit..come back

sure so too the lies in other words
but here mate..people risk breaking the biggest law..[freewill]

""People want to believe,
want to influence others.""

you can se that here[lol]
but cant see it
with juliar?

*come-on...
maaaaate...?

lol

""I am not going looking for those sites again,
every one needs your own thought not mine as to belief.""

thats great mate
and by ignoring dead..you cant die...[right?}

by chosing to be or remain ignorant
everythjing will work out fine
just trust alp..or lib or john or juliar
or jesus..or mahamoud...or the pope..or your union rep

""I rather think the few who told us here
their story's..are evidence enought for me.""

of course ol mate
ozwald shot jfk
men landed on the moon
the earth is on fire

anyhow mate believe
that 911 was planned/done by arabs on cammels

darn freewill

let me fill the gaps
""some experiences""
are too full of unkown knowns..[and fear]
some experiences..""are unknown influences""

that we feel best believing the mantra
based in fear of the unknown..that
""our brain telling us story's...for reasons unknown.""

yes mate
its that fright..in ya gut
before you standup for the worker
or before the workers..saying the boss offers 2/half%

do we go on strike

""And firmly
that some have story's to tell
but avoid doing so,..public exposure
in such a thread...being a bridge too far for them""

no worries mate
good thing...your going to live here...forever.

and mum will never hold her boy again
cause he is in a self made prison
made up in his own mind

how did you ever get brave enough..
to take..your first step?

look mr bell
this is mr watson...speaking

recall my last link
i just recalled..that at that link
in part..iv..[chapter 27]
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/wsl/wsl29.htm

this guy..OVER 100 YEARS AGO
was talking..*of a huge flat/screen tv..!

[i was looking..for where he has
a moving 'photo'..of his beloved..

ie an..i'pod....
*OVER 100 years AGO]

but this will do
as a proof..that cant be faked

tell me mate

what does this
sound like..to you

""Then the curtains glided apart and showed us a huge mirror of black polished marble. And then the music changed to another measure,..still solemn, still grand,..but with somewhat of discordance in its tones.

It wavered too and became uneven in the measure of its time, as though halting with uncertain step, stumbling and hesitating.

Then the air around us darkened
till we could scarce see each other's faces;
slowly the light faded, and at last all we could see
...*was the black polished surface of the gigantic mirror,'"

GET IT?

>>"and in it I saw reflected
the figures of two..of the members of our expedition.

They moved and spoke
and the scenery around them grew distinct
and such..*as I had seen in the Inferno we had left.

The weird music stirred my soul to its inmost core,
and looking upon the drama being enacted before my eyes
I forgot where I was--I forgot everything--

and seemed to be wandering
once more..in the dark depths of Hell.

Picture melted into picture, till we had been shown the varied experiences of each of our bank,

from the lowest member to our leader himself--the last scene showing the whole company assembled upon the hill listening to the farewell discourse of our commander; and like the chorus in a Greek Tragedy,

the wild music seemed to accompany and explain it all, varying with every variation in the dramas, now sad and sorrowful, now full of repose or triumph, and again wailing, sobbing, shrieking

or changing into a murmuring lullaby
as some poor rescued soul sank to rest at last--""...

*sounds like a movie
being watched..on a flat screen tv*

the earliest documentry...[quote]
contuinues

mate
REMEMBER
this was 1800's

also recall churchhill

''THERE IS NOTHING TO FEAR
but fear itself'..!

yeah thou i walk through the valy of evil
I SHALL FEAR NO EVIL..!

then again rising into wild notes of clamor,
fierce cries of battle, hoarse curses and imprecations; now surging in wild waves of tumultous melody, then dying away amidst discordant broken notes.

At last as the final scene was enacted it sank into a soft plaintive air of most exquisite sweetness, and died away note by note. As it ceased the darkness vanished, the curtains glided over
*the black mirror

and we all turned with a sigh of relief and thankfulness to congratulate each other..that our wanderings in that dark land were past.

I asked my father how this effect had been produced,
was it an illusion or what?""

well mr bell
are you there

belly
please reply
even if just to say..go away

mate..it cant be a shock..to know it was your father..[for sure]
nor to know that it really was your mum

you allready knew spirit was real
so i gave you some proof

proof positive
that book was wrote years ago..12 decades ago

so mate who gets the credit for the ipod
or indeed for the teklephone..or that song..or owns the movie rights

its time we gave back to god
that of god

and gave back to spirit..that of spirit

anyhow im worried about you ol mate

i wrote so earlier

on that other thread

i wish i could soften the shock ol mate
but really it cant be that much of a shock

i hate it when the room goes silent

and there is so much more left to say

we are spirits..having our life in sentanance
emboy...its only natural we have dis-embodied experiences

if the 'man'..hadnt mutilated our generation
with them tb shots..[right over our phycic stimulation point]

our generation could have been so different
but those whom didnt want these days to come
feared it so much...they had to make sure it couldnt happen]

but god had other plans
the book is there

the description is clear
so is the implication
but never blame

that we do to the least
we do to or for god

ok i will shutup now
keep the love strong

OUG,

It was Franklin D. Roosevelt who said 'THERE IS NOTHING TO FEAR
but fear itself'..! - not Churchill.

You have a difficult to understand writing style OUG.

I would love to reply to you but I often have trouble truly understanding the point you are making.

Please don't take this as a criticism... Because it certainly wasn't meant to be that!

Belly's simple point is that what people have posted here is evidence enough for him. But I am sure he keeps an open and somewhat sceptical mind, like we all should, as part of our protective mechanisms against falsehoods

He asked "Why would they lie"?

Philo : Jesus actually said both things I typed. I know the Bible very well. I just didn't want to take this thread down a religious journey out of respect for Belly's wishes.

Opinionated 2 thanks,you clearly understand what I have tried to say.
I however do not mind religion being bought up,but reserve my right to rebut it too.
As a former believer I wanted to think Christ was the answer,to every thing.
OUG lets try again.
I believe knowledge is our best Friend,and that some strong truths,outside our normal views exist.
I have in my life looked for the reasons we are here.
And found lies deception and much more.
I have too, found answers, story's I think support some thing different.
I trust individual personal story's far more than MOST written by unknowns.
Mate you give me evidence, in your post here,that I can not take every thing as right.
I do not believe global warming is about tax or control.
And I do ,think smoking kills.
Away mid day, had to buy new phone,mine broke some one panicked and asked police to see if I was ok.
am fine!

thanks O2
bellies fine...the replied..the 'other'topic

anyhow belly..imagine your in the time
during which the book was printed

*1896

mr..a farnese..writes these channeld words

think of them with his eyes
""Then the air around us darkened""

next time you watch tv..you will notice this affect

""till we could scarce see each other's faces;
slowly the light faded,..and at last all
we could see was the black polished surface..of the gigantic mirror,""

look at a tv not switched on
but then it begins

""and in it
I saw reflected the figures
of two of the members of our expedition.

They moved and spoke
and the scenery around them grew distinct""

cant you visualise a show beginning?

""The weird music stirred my soul""

""looking upon the drama
being enacted before my eyes..I forgot where I was""

imagine seeing this the first time

""--I forgot everything""

""Picture melted into picture,""

""like the chorus in a Greek Tragedy,
the wild music seemed to accompany..and explain it all""

mood music

""varying..with every variation in the dramas,
now sad and sorrowful,..now full of repose or triumph,

""At last as the final scene was enacted
it sank into a soft plaintive air of most exquisite sweetness,
and died away..note by note...

[all thats missing..is those famouse words
*THE END*..[except end has no meaning..in the next life]

so back to the quote

""I asked my father
how..this effect had been produced,
was it an illusion or what?

"My son,"..he answered,

"what you have seen is an application
of scientific knowledge,..nothing more

but note..!
what comes next...!

in 1896...
[the]..father said

QUOTE..""This..'mirror'..has been so prepared
that it receives..and reflects the images""

*as did tv's..not invented..
till the 1950's..[here..on earh]

QUOTE..""thrown upon it..from
a series of sheets..of thin metal,"'

[we used..a coil]

QUOTE..""or rather..what is
the spiritual counterpart..of earthly metal.""

QUOTE..""These sheets of metal
have been..so highly sensitized..that they
are able to..receive and retain..these pictures..''

QUOTE..''somewhat in the fashion..of a phonograph..
(such as you saw..in earth life)''

QUOTE..""it...receives
and retains..the sound waves.""..

*and..*picture waves..!
you got one..NOW..at home..
only it records..onto iron oxide..magnetic tape casset...lol

or disc..or
smart-card/memory stick..etc

its now called
'a vidio recorder'

QUOTE.."When you..were wandering..in those dark/spheres,
you..were put in magnetic communication""..[vop]..with this instrument*..!..""

QUOTE..""and the adventures..of each
were transferred..to one..of these..sensitive sheets,...""

only yesterday
i read..that they can get..now
pictures..*from our minds...direct

[in the other realm..
they perfected it..way back in 1896..!]

QUOTE..""while the *emotions..of every one of you
caused the sound waves..in the spheres of music
and literature..*to vibrate..in corresponding tones of sympathy.""

QUOTE.."You belong to..!
the spheres of Art,Music and Literature,..

QUOTE..""and therefore..you are able..to see and feel
*and understand..the vibrations..of *those spheres.

quote..""In the spirit world all emotions,speeches,
or events..*reproduce themselves..in objective forms

QUOTE..""and become..*for those..in harmony with them..either pictures, melodies,..or spoken narratives.""..

*that can..be..WAS}..conveyed..into like minds..!
right here on earth...eventually..in 60 tears

[much of our inventivness..is channeled..!
we will find..creative minds..are phycic/minds]..!

QUOTE..""The spirit world..is created..by the thoughts
and actions..of the soul,..

QUOTE..""and therefore every act
or thought..forms its..*spiritually material counterpart.

QUOTE..""In this sphere..you will find many things
not yet known..to men..*on earth,

QUOTE..""many curious inventions
which will in time..be transmitted to earth
and clothed..*there..in material form.""..

*and they will claim..to own the idea
will fight..for the patent right
extend patent..into infinity
lol

[only recently..its been extended again..to 75 years]
but think..who owns the origonal idea,..?

how come..SO many NEW..inventions
were invented
*near at the same time..

by minds
thinking about
the same problem..at the same time

again

im not making these words up

im mearly channeling..{passing on"
what was written....then...{in 1896}

blame them..who framed those words..[in 1896]

mark my word..the times
they are..a changing..read all about it..!

http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/wsl/wsl29.htm
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/wsl/index.htm

bely/quote..

knowledge/best..""and that some strong truths,
outside our normal views exist.""

i hope that the previous post speaks clearly
as a truth..that is impossble to fake..it WAS written 100 year's plus ago

was written at least 50 years before tv..or vidio recording
and maybe even silent movies...[photos are there..and them old canester recordings
but im not sure we even had that many old records[78's]..back then

""I have in my life looked for the reasons we are here.""

to evolve spiritually..our freewill
to learn about god..via freechoices in this life

""And found lies deception and much more.""

only so you could tell the difference
cghose to believe lies or chose to believe truths
[this is a training ground..to let the logical..chose its own logic
and the illogical..to teach..more about the eventual logic

}}I have too, found answers,story's
I think support some thing different""

allways glad to hear you tell em mate

""I trust individual personal story's
far more than MOST written by unknowns.""

when you were a child you would have said..shakespear who?

mate we only known each other for 5 years
we were each unkown to each other till we came here

i know..the writer
please if you can refute my other mate..please do
push the link..and judge what he says..!

""Mate you give me evidence, in your post here,
that I can not take every thing as right.""

sure mate
say what..it is..!

""I do not believe global warming is about tax or control.
And I do ,think smoking kills.""

ok

BUT mate
THIS ISNT ABOUT THAT
its purely about spirit

nothing to do with the other topics
please mate..you claim to be fair..but what has spirit to do with life after life?

i think your judging me a lier"

""Away mid day, had to buy new phone,
mine broke..and some one panicked""

yes mate me
the liar

""and asked police to see if I was ok""

that wasnt me
but i hoped someone would
so sure mate hate me..BUT MATE RAD THE LINK

try just one page

unedited.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/wsl/wsl29.htm

""i am fine!""

glad to hear it

OUG we have become an Island, you and I its only inhabitants.
But in those posts you show an insight that needs attention.
Some should spend more time reading your posts.
Mate in friendship, you too should spend more time in spell checking your posts and construction.
I have seen you do so , you have much to contribute.
You described a true thing, some people can and do predict the future.
Seem to see it, look at mother Shipton.
Take in to account that the first written reports about her,and her predictions,came before even the steam engine.
But look too at the travelers/Gypsy miss use of such.
In my childhood such parked on road sides and fleeced travelers.
Keep in mind this, yes gems exist, but a great deal of removing rubbish is needed to find them.
Down load Ispell give it a chance Mate.

Belly,

OUG does his thing
with words

He's actually very creative and likes to play with them - usually adding extra meaning in the process. He breaks things down and exposes them to the light.

It's more of a case of "deconstruction" that we receive upon reading OUG's posts...always good to have an alternative view of reality.

thanks pure'oh

belly..i keep running up against the post limit
but am speaking as slow as i can

mate...[no mates..end up fkkking each other]

brother..
writing to you..is no bother..its a pleasure

because..i know
you are egsactly..what you are

me..i dont have a clue..as to what i am

i come from..the land..we built ourselves
we have even..if on land..one foot..on the sea

and as we both..got one foot..in the grave
i need to know..why i got so many feet..so as to have

one foot
on..the water..
one..on the land..one in the grave..
and..one in heaven..and one in hell..

you have seen me..use my words to cut people
indead im so frightend..that one day..my sharp sword's will hurt someone..near and dear..[hence my..[panic yesterday]

mate[brother]..we are/what we are
this life..isnt what we really are

take your mum[for egsample]
her friends..think..she is their friend
you think..she is your mum

your pop thinks..she is a..*godess
govt thinks..she is a person..and next door..called her a neighbour

but..she lived here..did many things
her pride ..nd joy are you..and her kids

she knows..*here she is/was..
and remains firstly..a mum

but mate..over there..[in the light]
she is renowned..as being..bellies mum
plays some..really cool songs
and sings..like a bird

but this.has gone-away..from the topic
its not what others think we are..but what
we wish to be..*most..in this*..*living moment..right now..!

in the next life..we dont sleep..at all
i know your so close..to being there..your not sleeping much..allready.

[yep me too]..every time my head hits the pillow..i say goodbye..to this hell/realm..[but in the end..wake up angry..and get on with trying to wake folks up..using my s,word

see brother..to me
words..are sacred

sacred/words
are for me s/words

i yield my sharp tongue..in words..[writing]
cause with my sharp tongue..i really hurt people
so moderate myself..by not being heard..on the street

im sorry you..refuse to read..the link

but mate...now or later..you will know
every word of it..is true

same with them..other links
that they think..they can stop people..from hearing...

for now

those words..will haunt
them who stoped you..reading them

the only person..they can really..*hurt..is themselves

Poirot I thank you for your kind words to my mate.
And I understand, others do not.
It was you OUG not very long ago, who showed me, a veteran of many years on PC how to cut and paste.
I am sure like me,you do not fell the need to hide from others the true you.
Not that mate! the words is far different for me.
I still value it,more than younger some times do.
I have mixed with all sides suit on side by side with the upwardly mobile taking My party from its inventors.
And out in the bush squatting by a camp fire with some who are forever lost.
We,if we look, find something in every one of worth.
I will goggle our subject again after my trip to my personal rainforest's under development.
Very small one but in a year or two?
c ya bloke.

ok see ya mate

oh well might as well quote..
""Preface by the Transcriber.

The following narrative
was written more than a year ago,[1895]..
and in..&giving it to the public
I do not claim to be its author,..!

since I have only acted
the part of an amanuensis
and endeavored to write down
as truthfully and as carefully as I could,
the words given to me by the..*Spirit Author himself,

who is one of several spirits
who have desired me to write down for them
their experiences in the spirit world.

I have had to write the words as fast as my pen could travel over the paper, and many of the experiences described and opinions advanced''

'..are quite contrary to what
I myself believed to be in accordance
with the conditions..of life in the world of spirits.""

see the experiences we each have
much depends on what we pretended to be
as opposed to what we really are..

BUT MATE
this bit is for you..!

""The Spirit Author Franchezzo
I have frequently..*seen materialized,""

ie recall your own words
[see mate many other's..use automatic writing..like me]
but you mate have sen your father..and heard your mum

and if you lost the fear
you could reveal so much more
the key thing..is be the love..TRUST
that you see hear and feel egsactly what you need to 'see'

but back to the quote

..""and he has been recognized
on these occasions by friends""

this seems important
as when used properly..others can help focus energy

""Having given the narrative to the public""

note that
[its in public domain]
ie not for patent thieving]

""as I received it..from the Spirit Author,
I must leave..*with him all responsibility..for the opinions expressed..and the scenes described.

A. FARNESE.

London, 1896

ANYHOW
next lets hear from the spirit..[himself]
from HIS intro

fit two parragra[ps edite

I now ask these dwellers upon earth
to believe..that if these weary travelers of the other life can return to warn their brothers yet on earth, they are eager to do so.

I would have them..[you dear reader]..to understand
that spirits who materialize..have a higher mission to perform""

DID YOU HEAR THAT BELLY
recall dad?

higher mission..than even the solacing
of those who mourn..in deep affliction for the beloved they have lost.

I would have them to look,,and see..[and listen]..
knowing..that now..even at the eleventh hour of man's pride and sin, these spirit wanderers,,are permitted..

,,*by the Great Supreme[god]..to go back
and tell them..the fate of all who outrage the laws of God and man.

I would have even the idle and frivolous..to pause
and think whether Spiritualism..be not something higher,..holier, nobler,..than the passing of an idle hour..in speculations as to whether there are occult forces..which can move a table or rap out the Alphabet,..and whether it is not possible..that these feeble raps and apparently unmeaning tips..and tilts of a table are but the opening doors..through which a flood of light..is being let in upon the dark places of earth..and of the Nether World-

-faint signs that those
who have gone before..do now return to earth..to warn their brethren.

As a warrior who has fought..and conquered
I look back upon the scenes of those battles
and the toils through which I have passed,..and I feel that all has been cheaply won-

-all has been gained..for which I hoped and strove,
and I seek now...but to point out..*the Better Way..to others
who are yet in the storm and stress of battle,..that they may use

&the invaluable time given to them..upon earth
to enter upon..*and follow with unfaltering step
..the Shining Path..which shall lead them home
to Rest..and Peace

at last.

FRANCHEZZO.

so guys
come-on

try reading HIS STORY

http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/wsl/wsl03.htm

..

dear belly
you began this topic to get answers
in the course of our talking..you mentioned your mum and dad

its clear you feel it was your mind playing tricks
from my replies..you must know now..that they really happend
and i think that frightens you a bit

you may have noticed much of what i said
was about letting go of fear..and thats important
you have heard of animals running over cliffs from 'blind fear'

fear has no place with your mum or father
there is a safe place mate

i know you are having sleeplessness
so clearly your having dream contact too
mate let it out

and your googling the other sites
well mate many of them are dreamers and frauds

look mate
your not alone in this
heck tv is making the many sensatives wakeup
they are just as confused mate..they too are searching

its been so common place with me
for so long..i feel we need to help them

talk mate

there are reasons for all this
but if we dont know..we cant help figure it out

of course you can try to figure it out
but so far..mind tricks..lol..how is that working out?

denying that you got a problem
dont help the problem
nor indeed mean..that you really got a problem

its only when the problem, interupts our rest..
that we need to look for somethinmg that works better
sleep is gods gift

talking can help
but you do as you chose
im not going to loose sleep one way or the other

says johan
at 4.48 am..in the morning...lol

OUG we you and I hold our selves out to be ridiculed by talking here.
I do not fear it,we are in good company.
True great past men spoke as we do.
Do not let that fear I spoke of blind you.
IT WAS both my mum and dad who spoke to me after both died.
And those are not the earliest things that happened to me.
The fear came because true, events followed.
I did not want to know.
I fight the fear now, think truly some are much more aware than others.
At about age five while sitting with mum and dad,Asked about my first birthday while describing events there.
I asked who one guest had been.
Both showed instant shock dad more so.
I had never seen that man again, still have not,I was named after him.
He was my Godfather.
He and dad fought that day , maybe that is what kept the memory.
A closed mind learns nothing,but a wise one defends from untruth

i laugh at ridicule
but i guess the topic is closed
all you could do is give more hints
and all i could do is give more quotes

anyhow that last surviving link
links to a guy..as he said..loved [or respected]..in this life
he had but to try to succeed,..and be much lauded for the ruthlessness of his succes..

he found in time one who loved him purely
but he knew his ability to honour her love wasnt up to scratch
never the less she loved him purely

anyhow the old geezer karks it
and finds he is soi much up himself..he is bound to his dead corpse
his girl friend..yet hears him beyond the grave..proteced by her 3 brothers..he cant come near

anyhow her love remains strong..she dont giveup..and in the end he goes on with his afterlife..trying to make sure he and she would be equal[ie in the same realm]..after death

its rather simple how he sets about rerstoring his soul
by helping others want to cleanup their act

i was going to give you the page where he gets his ipod like picture frame..[well before 1896 when the whole story was written]..not when the events occured..that may well be much earlier in 1830]

anyhow i cn try to lead a horse to water
but cnt make em drink

so im over it

im off to radio national
to look for a link to a show called future tense
that i get off my death bed to put onto the forum

it says so much more clearly
egsactly what i been trying to say
but im so tired..im so over trying to wake up sleepers

i really just want to go back to sleep
[its funny really..i likely been a ghost for a long time
one day the cops will come and find a guy been dead for years]

please dont send cops
im joking

just too tired to give a damm
when i 'die'..i will come and visit

Maybe we should re-consider what ancient and traditional man said about Spirituality?

Maybe we have called what they believe Myth way too easily.

Some links for you to consider

Hopi Prophecy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y1GdKdNhY4&feature=player_embedded

Worth a read : http://www.welcomehome.org/rainbow/prophecy/hopi1.html

Native American Stories

Video 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzjgL8YAmN4
Video 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E4RKco0fqw
Video 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUQSNuBt6j8&feature=related
Video 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ5BlX1IARk&feature=related
Video 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_6vGmjabzw

We certainly haven't got things right - so why not listen to others for a change.

I thank you for that opiniated2 I will watch them tonight.
A quick goggle search mother Shipton will find words that should stun.
From hundreds of years ago she told of our today and tomorrow.
OUG will report back after visiting your links tomorrow.

Thanks Belly,

I have done some research into the great seers but if time permits I can also do some more.

The interesting thing about Mother Shipton is that many (modern sceptics) have put her visions down to methane gas oozing from the walls of her cave, that she did the viewings from.

Perhaps we should all be on methane gas if that is true... Ha!

There are so many unexplained monolithic structures way older than the pyramids, that modern science, archaeology and anthropology cannot explain, so they just throw it in the too hard basket.

I can give you links to many videos that would certainly keep you thinking. They sure have that affect on me.

The Mayans, The Hopi, The Egyptians, The Summerians - They are all most interesting cultures.

And much of their spirituality has been consigned to myth - apparently because we know more... Ha!

Thanks look forward to seeing them.
Yes Delphi was said to be gas too but the visions seem true.
Just a thought, talk of the speed of light being wrong/right bought it on.
If we put together a list of our greatest achievers.
Put them here , deeds that is with out names just dates.
Some would think no human could do such a thing, without supernatural help.
Gods would get the credit.

visions are a thing..that cant be used consistantly
much depends on the realm from which the vision comes

take nukes for an egsample..
nuke bombs cant come from heaven
thus we know that came from hell

ditto the armogeddon vision's
quite simply the only way that could be allowed to happen
is if we all lost our compassion etc..recall the teaching of jonah

as long as there is one or a few that still love neighbour
nothing like that can happen...[unless they got accended en mass]

and this movement of people has happend
indeed swedenberg wrote of the same event..that preceeds my first quoted bit..[re the tv]..and them watching it on the flat scren tv..

but enough of that
it will be because thgey had the freewill
and chose to deney god the things only he can do

anyhow..im restricting myself..to replying questions
[in the next realm..thats how it works..but there..they reply a question..with a question...cause we learn..the asker alllready knows the answer...

so let them face
..the answer..that helped framed the question
[for only that..we can face is allowed..for us to face]

belly quote..""If we put together a list of our greatest achievers.

""Put them here""..
by their..""deeds..""
..""that is with out names..just dates.""

""Some
would think no human..could do such a thing,
without supernatural help.""

thus..[in mr bells questioning]
..""Gods would get the credit""..

sure belly
or nature...anything but face the reality
that we..HAVE TO HAVE ..the thought first
ie first know the answer..to even begin to know the question

in truth we can by pass the question and answer all together
once we know we all ready got the answer

the only real question remains..

is this 'thought'..from good..or ill
comes this idea/thought quest-ion....from heaven...or hell

by its likely..result..its fruits
its easy to tell

Hi Belly & OUG,

I thought I had better warn you guys just in case, that You Tube videos use up lots of your download. So make sure of your limits.

OUG, The thought of where something came from... such as Good or Evil has problems.

Example. The Genesis Story

God is

Omniscient: God knows all things, past, present & future. God knows what we have done in the past, God knows what we are doing in the present & God knows what we will do in the future!

Omnipresent: God is everywhere.

Genesis 3:1-6...http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Genesis+3%3A1-6&version1=9

If God is omniscient - GOD knew we would eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, otherwise GOD wouldn't have placed it there.

God placed it to enable us to think, to have choices, to make choices.

It wasn't Eve's fault! It can't have been, God knows everything!

And yet all over the world people use Omniscient about God and then in their teaching and understanding undermine his omniscience with their stories.

Either God isn't omniscient OR something is wrong!

If a God created all things then I guess Omniscience is a quality one would ascribe to him. Yet, he didn't know Eve would eat?

Is this one of the first tests of logic that God's gift of an enquiring, questioning mind sets before us?

People simply can't have it both ways...

So now to the Aztecs.. another wonderful story.

These native Americans built a huge civilisation. Cortez and the conquistadores came looking to steal the Gold!

Cortez, didn't like Aztecs performing human sacrifice...and rightly so. One would say that is a very Christian trait!

BUT Cortez, didn't mind breaking a few commandments along the way.

He didn't mind coveting his neighbour's property....He didn't mind stealing his neighbours property....He didn't mind killing! But worse killing whilst stealing the gold if needs be.

Good and Evil are very flexible terms when humans start using them!

Aztecs Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4JabdIKx8s

Aztecs Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BbIWuwtUZg

Aztecs Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_wAHvHIntM

Aztecs Part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f332HpnpgkI

Aztecs Part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtzndX1f7aM

ENJOY!

you raise good points O2
my server is so slow uploading..i cant critique the youtube clips

so i will restrict myself to the words your used

quote..""If God is omniscient""

there is no if's about that
science as clever as it is...
can only use a living cell..to make..'life'

just as it has learned to 'start hearts'
with an electric shock...it still can build a 'heart'

nor can it build 'life'...[the most recent blurb...under that heading ended up being that they extracted dna from a live bacteria..and inserted their code into it]..it then dived..and they claim life lol

but it wasnt
life comes only from life

so the theory that life came by chance
is a theory..just like the theory that many little species changes..'evolve into new genus'

use some sense here
where is this half blood cold blood wish with hips and shoulderblades and legs...[the so called coldbnlood amphibians got no hip..got nbo shoulder blad..got no fur..arnt half warm/half cold blood[its a theory]

""GOD knew..we would eat of the tree of the knowledge""

yes he did...then the question must arise
how did god know...[there are two parts to this]

see that..we dont have one big bang
but an eternity..of big bangs

a big expantion...[and its assiative
''change of 'state']..followed by the big inversion..

and its final 'change of state...
;think like..of a container of water
that at the last moment..expands and becomes ice

that goes bang
and the NEXT expantion 'begins'

god of course is beyond any affect..of that big bang

he was outside of them all
in fact was from the time of the big inversion
that preceeded..the big collapse...

[where 'we got/get so clever''[again]
we PROOVE god cant really egsist/insist

then..he simply said
says..im leaving

or simply lets us figure it all out
by the good god doing nothing anymore

KNOWing we either stand
or fall

were just too clever
your gown up..NOW*?

ok prove it

continued

heck we dont know
how can we imagine..what it feels like to be rejected
by billions of kids?

sure you love them all
but they just want more...[and then say your not real]

BUT

in the timelessness..we[and he..all forget]
but DEjaVU...we sometimes remember..[bits]..that happend..last time

hence prophecy..
but not egsactly..the same thing happens each time

its said only the big things
beginning and endings usually are the only sure thing
as gods mind slowly recalls..

till in this time and state
he knows its him doing all that 'life' stuff..
all the logic/law..light/life and love stuff...[the all]
all..the means and all the way]

the material..and the spirit
the god of good..as much as the god of evil

yes god knew adam/eve...wouldst eat of the tree
""of good and evil,..otherwise GOD wouldn't have placed it there.""

egsactly
because he did the same things last time
he does egsactly the same things time and time again

god is the only true scientist
he will spend eternity doing egsactly the same things over and over and over again

just like we [made in his image]
do our due diligence[science]..
over and over and over again

its true..a you say
""God placed it to enable us to think,
to have choices,..to make choices.

egsactly

""It wasn't Eve's fault!
It can't have been, God knows everything!""

close enough

""And yet all over the world
people use Omniscient..about God
and then in their teaching..and understanding undermine his omniscience..with their stories.""

and the delusions ie santa claws
or the ester rabbit...
or tha athiest foundation et'al

""Either God isn't omniscient
OR something is wrong!"'

omnipresent
[think like emmanuel]

""you shall call him emmanuel""..:..
god with us..
with..[IN]..us all]

*in..the least of life...
as much as with-in..the best of living

within all life
the one sure sign..of god with us

where life is
god is

where god is
good can chose to be
continued

an angel can declare life is good
because angels know good is god

when an angel is with you
[heck or a demon too]

their message sounds like it comes from withIN
the same within of god is with you..[in you]
in all life..in every life..OMMNIPRESENT

""If a God created all things
then I guess Omniscience is a quality one would ascribe to him."'

god is all
in all..outside all
where life/logic/light/life/love is
god is

""Yet,..he didn't know Eve would eat?""

pleasse provide proof

""Is this one of the first tests of logic
that God's gift of an enquiring,..questioning mind sets before us?""

it suire sounds like it
look do you want to take the red pill
or eat of the blue fruit?

come on neo
dont eat off that tree..[lol]
of knowledge..or good evil

""People simply can't have it both ways...""

please give your evidence..*

""So now to the Aztecs..another wonderful story.""

much distorted by those
who follow the inner voices of demons

""These native Americans built a huge civilisation."'

without the aid of money

""Cortez and the conquistadores
came looking to steal the Gold!""

no i think looking for china..or east indies[spices]
or some faint memory of riches..[ok who knows]
by their deeds alone can we think to know them

[xtian bias deleted]
none is without sin
we burned people at the stake
hell is still filled with those doing eternal payback

""BUT Cortez,
didn't mind breaking a few commandments along the way.""

nor the popes
nor the saints
heck we all CAN be decieved by the inner voices
feeding fear or hate or creed or greed

""Good and Evil are very flexible terms
when humans start using them!""

yes but if we dont figure out the difference
hell is full of teachers..loving to teach us the difference

a clue
with love/good
no one gets hurt

NO ONE..!

Thanks my down load starts again tomorrow so after I get home will use the lot.
OUG you have a great heart, I hope I do too.
My journey in life long ago left God behind, not in anger but leave that.
This subject proves a point, out there, even in OLO.
a thousand story's could have been told.
People fear talking about such things and being considered foolish.
I love learning and care little about image.
You seem down brother now and again you know its in your hands but I wish you well.

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1682
This link lead to a number of others.
As I have become too unwell to go out I may look at them later

OUG....We might be closer to agreeing on many things than you realise.

A loving God wouldn't create hell....However...other dimensions where souls contemplate their actions and learning from their misdeeds over time is possible.

I don't use the word GOD generally. It means too many things to too many people, with everyone wanting and believing they own him/her/it.

Belief also is a conceited concept. If I have to respect someone's belief in a God then they should have to respect an atheists non-belief. A thinking person has to defend their beliefs! So I don't use the word belief generally.

So, if there is a creator GOD/Being his/her/its omniscience demands that we should use our magnificent minds to continually question and analyse all things.

You seem to believe in past lives... which is fine by me. I have never experienced a flashback or dream to a past life but I know many who have.

Your summation of science is reasonable. It is afterall the "Theory of Evolution" & "The Theory of the Big Bang" - It has never been proven, and evidence is continually being called into question.

Your concept of an eternity of Big Bangs also has merit. The 50 years of "Theory of Big Bang" presented as fact, is over. I have never excepted the Universe starting from "nothing" as anything but fantasy, and theoretical cosmologists are starting to realise this and questioning heavily.

SearchYou tube - BBC What Happened Before the Big Bang

My "Yet,..he didn't know Eve would eat?"...wasn't really a question...I was saying people can't claim God's omniscience and then claim God not knowing things.

I agree none of us a free from sin...like Cortez...Although I think Cortez is a rather special case of excessive double Christian standards.

Of course Cortez's coming was predicted by the Native American, noted in one of the links I gave you as "The turtle backed people" referring to their armour.

So much to learn...so much to understand using our enquiring minds...so little time.

No-one has all the answers..but...this thread proves some of us are still on the journey!

O2 quote..""A loving God..wouldn't create..hell""

yes..you got that..right!

hell is purely..what..*we created
god..had nothing to do..with..it

see hell..*isnt real

just as hells devisions/fear/hate/creed greed..isnt real
god only makes..THE good/perfect/living..the reality...

[which we can reject...then
create our own reality]..ie..that godfree place...'hell'

that cetainly..has nothing to do with god
in the main..those who go into hell..[to help those there..
see through..their delusions]..ie to wake them up..

that the delusion..they dream..
is not..real..[hell..in no way..is real;]

but..to those blinded
by their..own ignorance..it seems real

i should quote..from the only text
i can acces..at this time to prove it..for you

but lets continue..with your comment

""....However...other dimensions..where souls contemplate their actions..and learning from their misdeeds..over time is possible."'

again we hit
the faulse belief..
that allows hell..to be 'real-ised'

see..in their dreams[nightmare]..[ie in hell]
they dont contemplate nuthing..they are activly doing
their vile..[unto that they percieve as others]..but in reality only upon themself..!..[opthers is the other delusion]

[those loving..murder only 'murder'..each other...
...rapists raping..only other rapists]
vivisectionists/only dicecting..other vivosectionists

heck let go
the quote

i will re-arrange chapter 26
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/wsl/wsl28.htm

""The multitudes..of such lives have been,
and shall yet be,..as the stars of the sky..
and the sands of the sea in number,..*and as*..*each builds..
*for himself..his own habitation in the higher..*or in the lower spheres,..

so are the vast spheres
peopled and their many dwelling places..and cities formed.

"Far beyond the power..of any mortal
to carry even his thoughts*,..
lie the myriad dwelling places..of the spheres,..

..each spot..or locality
bearing upon it the individual stamp
of the spirit..*whose life..*has created it,..!

and as there are..no two faces,..no two minds,
exactly similar..in all the countless beings..that have peopled the earth-..

-so too..there are no two places..
in the spirit world exactly alike...

Each place--yea,..*even each sphere-
-is..*the separate creation..
of the particular/class of minds...*that have created it,..!

and those whose minds..are in affinity
being drawn to each other..in the spirit world

every place will bear..more
or less..*the peculiar stamp..of its inhabitants.""

ie not god

""They forget..that Rome..is not Genoa,
Milan,..or..Venice,..yet..these are all..in Italy.

Lyons..is not Paris,..yet both..are in France-

[continue quote]

and both will bear certain characteristic features, certain national traits of resemblance. Or to extend the simile still further, New York and Constantinople are both cities upon the planet Earth,

yet there is between them and their population so great a difference, so wide a gulf, that it requires that we should look no longer for national characteristics but only for the broad fact that both are inhabited by the human race, differing, however widely, in manners and appearance.

"And now I would have you each observe that in all your wanderings--in all the sad sights you have seen--all the unhappy beings you have known groveling in this sink of their own iniquities, there were yet the germs of human souls inextinguishable and undestroyable,

and you have each learned, I trust, that long as may be the probation of the soul--greatly as it may retard the hour of its release by the perversion of its powers-

-yet to all is given the inalienable birthright of hope, and to each will come at last the hour of awakening, and those who have sunk to the lowest depths will arise even as a pendulum swung to its farthest limit will arise and swing back again as high as it has sunk low.

Thus in giving a description of this or any other sphere you will naturally be able to tell only what you have seen, and to describe those places to which you were attracted,

while another spirit who has beheld a different portion of the same sphere may describe it so very differently that men on earth, who limit all things too much,and measure them by their own standards of probability,

will say that since you differ
in describing the same sphere you must both be wrong""

lol

these wholy sacred words..cant be read.only once

they..*must be visualised

""Before..we again..passed through..*the fiery ring""

so look arround you
see a fire ring?

where..could this..'ring/of fire"..posasable..'be'?

fire..""that encompassed.this region,"'

""the leader..of our band conducted us
to the top..of a high pinnacle of rock

from which we beheld..the cities and plains
and mountains of that Land..of Darkness,..through which..each of us had passed..in our pilgrimage...[of hope]

And standing..on that mountain peak..we could survey the mighty panorama of Hell..stretched out at our feet.

He then addressed us..in grave,..solemn tones:

"This scene upon which we look..is but a small,
a very small, fractional portion..of the great sphere
which men have been wont to speak of..as 'Hell.'

There are dark spheres..above this
which may seem..to many to deserve the name
until they have seen..this place and learned in it..how low a soul can sink..and how much more terrible..in this sphere..can be both the crimes and the sufferings.

The great belt..of *dark matter""

desribed here..way back in 1896
that which science..has only now 'found'

yet described fully
later..lol

a great belt..of darkmatter..""of which is composed this,
the lowest..of the earth..[like]..spheres,""

see that earth*..was only to misslead
those who fully believe..lol..hell lies 'below us'..lol

it..""extends for many million miles around us,""
ie..cant be under the ear-th

""and has received within its borders
all those multitudes of sinful souls
whose material lives have been passed on earth,

''and whose existences date back to the remote far-off ages in which the planet Earth first began to bear its harvest of conscious immortals, destined to sin and suffer and work out each their own salvation till they should be purified from all earthly stain--all taint of their lower nature.

''The multitudes of such lives have been, and shall yet be, as the stars of the sky and the sands of the sea in number,and as each builds for himself his own habitation in the higher or in the lower spheres,..so are the vast spheres peopled and their many dwelling places and cities formed.""

heck read the book[chapter]..
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/wsl/wsl28.htm
suspend disbelief..for just a moment

[disbelief..only feeds the fear demons]

Good morning OUG Opinionated2, my belief is much like yours O2.
Do not fear for me how ever OUG i traveled your path many paths and I think after this life another may start, and briefly I may know why, even see the face of what you name God.
We are not alone a third of humans seek the same answers we do here.
Very easy to write us of but who truly knows?
Been reading about past life and predictions.
Stunning how those folk knew about the Spanish coming but a million yes that number of proven predictions exist.
Unfortunately within ten billion frauds.

belly mate...your right about frauds..scamers

most prophecy is fraud..!
[i could explain why..but heck
the deception speaks for itself]

much better are these books
just simple stories..that read like a novel

the complete experience
they actually experienced..after their death

download the pdf..put it on kindle..[or other e'reader]
sit down relax and just read them

here is a good read
about those who died/didnt die on the titanic
http://new-birth.net/booklet/BlueIsland.pdf

here is gone west
the very best book on the after life
read about the officer..who went from the deepest hell
back into the light

http://new-birth.net/booklet/Gone_West.pdf
here is his sequel
http://new-birth.net/booklet/Subaltern_Spirit_Land.pdf

this is great
http://new-birth.net/booklet/LifeHereafter_gc.pdf

so is this
http://new-birth.net/booklet/Anthony%20Borgia-Heaven_And_Earth.pdf

so is this
http://new-birth.net/booklet/Life_in_the_World_Unseen.pdf

http://www.jhardaker.plus.com/pdf/The%20Gate%20of%20Heaven.pdf

also worth finding is.."the post mortum journal'
[sir lawrence of arabias post death experiences]

it was written by automatic writing by jane sherwood
and is interesting in that he used a woman to record it

right from the first page
she writes..''its not ever easy for him..i retain an impish thought image..he once passed to me..of himself running franticly arround me..and even turning sumersaults..in his imatience at my slowness''

his was the last transmission
from the after life i have read

anf if anything enjoy the sudden begining of his story
[after researching sir lawrences life..its easy to understand why]

anyhow he began his tale
at his death..[on a motercycle]

literally like this

''1.an end and a beginning

a shattering blow
darkness rent with interlocking agony
and finally a mercifull cessation of pain..nothingness

out of the void..came first
a mere point of self awarness;
lost and found again..spreading eventually into an indedfinite impression of being;..a sensation of neither darkness nor light.an uneasy greyness filled with growing missapprehention

soon i should need to drag myself out of..this numbing stupor
to find out where i was...and what was happening..in this waste greyness.but having flickering consciousness went out again and slept.

there came a time i could no longer drowse away my fears

the sense of identity grew stronger
and with it came the tumult of emotions

continues

and hurried anxious thought's

unwillingly..i had to awake to a formless world of which i seemed its only inhabitant..yet i thought i could hear voices..but could distinguish no words..

i felt the shadows palpitate
with movement and could see no-one"""...

anyhow you can almost feel the images
into janes mind..with just those words

you can feel his phycic senses trying to adjust

others report that death feels like slipping out of a wet glove

in the intro col te lawrence..is mentioned as having been writing
in a style employed..by the group who shared his writing more books

[only one was mentioned]..
and that i havnt been able to find
[a phycic bridge and the country beyond]

and again i must think
why hush these things up

so much has ben brought to us
but special intrests have muddied the waters
thus is why..so much that remain's..is fraud

in time things can only get better
they certainly cant get any worse

[ok lets see
if my server*...lol is working]

http://iands.org/nde-stories/17-nde-accounts-from-beyond-the-light.html
More questions than answers here OUG if you are still watching.
Fascinating stuff.

Belly and OUG,

Thanks for all the links.

I will have to set aside another lifetime to study them all...lol

The secret to reading this material, is exactly as OUG says... Suspend disbelief, and approach with an open mind.

Most people think there are only two choices. Belief or Disbelief! As illogical as only those two choices by themselves sound, people just can't seem to understand that belief is as closed as disbelief. They are just at the opposite ends of the Yellow Brick Road.

I love going on a You Tube journey. After you have watched one video several others are listed. If I have the time and there isn't a part 2, 3 , 4 etc of the one I just watched... I choose another one and watch that also.

Sure you will get some real crazy ones, but most times you find something that gives you more information to consider.

Whether you choose to continue in that investigation is totally up to you.

But as you are in control of the on/off switch, the decision becomes totally yours.

When I had my near death experience... I was amazed and excited! I didn't dare tell the ambulance driver, or the Drs. They may have locked me up in the loony bin, and just for having an experience they might never have had themselves.

Enjoying the discussion guys. Thankyou both!

from your link belly

""The harder he tries to help people
the more doors slam in his face.

Although he has raised a wonderful son..he has yet to solve the enigma..of how to fulfill the guidance he receives.""

thats typical
people must ask,,[first]
then the4y still only beieve when/what..they want to

Mellen-Thomas Benedict was...[edited]..driven by the same need to reach out and assist others. Benedict learned early on, however, that "obeying" inner guidance can be fraught with peril if one is not grounded.""

see doing the right thing
for the wrong reson,..or at the wrong time
is often worse than doing nuthing...[which i have learned
ok am learning..to do..or rather not do]

""This awareness led him to participate in many different classroom and study opportunities..where he could learn to tame his own ego before he tackled.."the gifts of spirit."

His guidance..[from spirit]..to become an inventor
has kept him solidly in the path of practical application.. with results that speak louder than preachments or prophesies.""

he must learn not all invention..comes for good

''(a message present in every transcendent or impactual near-death experience I have encountered)is: setting one's self apart, feeling somehow "chosen," tempts one...to pursue power OVER others rather than fostering power..TO others.""

thats an important point

""The difference here is ego,
and how it can waylay even the most sincere.

"Heavenly" guidance leads to self-deception
*if one's ego is not redirected..*from self-satisfaction..to service,""

an important point

but guidence continues..[redirected]
""from self-righteousness to renewal""..the spirits/hope love etc..of other.

""The issue of ego domination..or ego desire
directly impinges upon how a near-death survivor interprets his or her experience, integrates it,..and comes to regard that sense of "mission"..each is left with.

""I cannot begin to emphasize strongly enough
how powerfully the ego can misdirect even the best of intentions.""

to whom much is given
also others shall test..even detest

i prefer longer stories
rather that selected facts
but each to their own..all the best mr bell.

Belly & OUG,

Interesting that we have been discussing spirituality openly when I had another 2 seperate experiences.

Both experiences happened over the last two Saturdays and came to me as dreams.

The first was I had a dream of a guy named Ron. He was a wonderful man, I think an atheist, who had agreed with me that whoever was to pass first would, if possible, try to get a message to the other still living.

Well on Saturday 1st October he came to me in a dream. Upon awakening I discussed Ron with a few people and found, by way of internet obituaries, that he had passed away back in March this year.

So on the following Saturday the 8th October another of my past colleagues, whom I had made this visitation agreement with, many years ago, came to me in a dream.

He appeared behind me looking in his 30's, fit and very healthy wearing a smart straw hat. At first I didn't think that he recognised me so I said to him "Ken it's me!"

Ken replied "I know it is you... You missed the reunion"! I replied that I wasn't really into reunions and we had a short discussion.

On awakening I immediately went to the computer and looked him up.

There was his obituary - He died September 27 2011 & was buried October 3rd 2011.

All 3 of the men who came to me were well again, Ron & Ken looked in their 30's and very healthy, and all 3 I have had the agreement with to visit one another when they pass, if they were able.

3 out of 3 people who have passed, without me knowing it, have now visited me either as a vision or in a dream.

I feel very privileged.

great stuff o2
as we become more open to those trying to help us
and as we are more able to recognise the small inner voice
but not obsess about it..or seek to know how/why..the more we get confirmation]..mostly on the personal level..[not what others would accept as proof]

the reason for this is of course the freewill rule
spirits cant force us to do things..we dont chose to do
[it seems a small thing to us here..but there its huge..spirits get instant karma..and usually slip deper into whatever hell their intereracnes led us closer to]

anyhow im still waiting to write out some notes i took on re-incarnation...and soul mates..just trying to decide where its better off being posted..[it does deserve its own topic..but grayham dont like my topic suggestions...from memory i submitted over ten...and had onkly arround 3 accepted]

mainly cause clerly i only post the topic to get my info online
ie dont really ask a question..more just looking to answer one..

you will find that every question gets it reply
its my exoperience that we often get the answer...before
we even ask the question...[i feel the reply inspuires the question...'sets our minds a wondering']

then our mind a quest-ioning?

we then only need search our subconscience
to unpick the answer

anyhow its allways great to get first hand confirmation
of things we allready believe

if only belly would speak more about his experiences
he is very sensative [spiritually]

anyhow cheers

Good to see we are still talking sorry I had not looked in for a while.
I know, we all do, some will think us quite mad.
Do not care.
Fact is some have, in my view, no imagination, no need to understand, and are poorer for it.
This I will say, those who live closer to life, in the country or not in the fast lane,seem closer to these things.
My family, is some time stunned , by dreams that have come true.
That I told them about, weeks before.
Now some will grab that, shape it and throw it back next time they disagree.
But it will not change the truth.
It happens, often, frightens even me.
How did I have a nightmare! stark, fear filled one, about a snake biting me!
Awakening to be so happy it was a dream.
Open my door, see the only other occupant of my home open his white faced.
We swapped these words
* me had the most awful nightmare about a sna*
*He do not tell me! I do not want to know! I dream I had a giant snake on my shoulder and it bit you, as you got it off me!*
So?
Not even I can know why, but this is true, that old very old house a slab hut, was the place mum lived before dieing , my brother was at a low in his life.
It was all good for him and me after that night.
We, both, took new directions and I think avoided something bad.
20 years on? we are best mates both ok but still not sure about that night and morning.

Hi OUG and Belly,

The thing I forgot to mention in my previous post regarding the 3 gentleman concerned is that we all worked together, and all had that discussion at the same time.

I am not one to consult the "spirits" as it were. I think life is a tapestry of experiences that present themselves along the way.

I ask them to help me to become a better person and am thrilled when I am given the information in the previous posts. I also thank them openly in my thoughts for the part they all played in my life.

Even the bad experiences are part of my life's journey but I always learn from them and treasure the experience where possible.

I've learnt to always go back and re-assess.

There is nothing to fear in the next stage of our journeys...in fact I always am amazed at how scared many who are religious are when their time comes. The non-religious, but spiritual, are relaxed and often looking forward to the journey when their time comes, and the religious are usually fearful.

I think all that hell fire and damnation rubbish is the wrong route to a spiritual journey and so they approach things in fear rather than love.

Not sure if I'm right but it seems to look that way.

Opinionated2,
How many people of faith bedsides have you attended at their death; compared to non believers? I have found the opposite a fact.

Philo,

I haven't had that much experience but those that were religious seemed quite fearful.

I have only seen one death bed conversion but that was an Uncle with a Catholic Priest by his side, as the wife was a Catholic. It didn't calm him at all, but it made his wife feel better.

I suppose no-one wants to die, but in my limited experience the spiritual people, (not religious), have seemed to deal with their passing better.

If you belong to a Church and have attended more, I will bow to your knowledge of how religious people handle it.

most dead people
dont realise they are dead
in fact many know dead isnt meaning death

we are eternal spirits..having 'a life'
when we chose to fill that life with mortal thinking
we get afreard of that death monster..but 'death'..comes as a mercyfull blessing..when your ever nerve jangles with mortal pains

sadly many that have physicly died
think their spirit must be dead too
[this is particularilly the case with suicides and many 'drug deaths'

heck there are many of the fathers 'houses' dedicated to those thinking they are dead...[when its only their faith..FAKINg the dead symptom..;indeed he was only sleeping../pretending to be dead]

these dead to eternity..are tried to be woken
by gentle means..[freewill is supreem..if you want to play dead..thats your right]

most annoying..is those tricked by mortal thinking
that they will be judged..[ie waiting for some judgment day..or some reserction 'day'..when in heaven there is no night..thus only the one 'day']

when i hell there is only night
day never comes

mabny perfectly good people
CHOSE to be 'dead',..thus chose to reside in the ever night

forgetting that ignorance
and faulse beliefs are a right

ok you want to play dead..fine
just dont do it here

you want to sleep
go to the place of the sleepers
[and that place is in that dark place
where no light dares disturb your veiled eyes]

god gives us what we ask
if you chose to sleep..for a day
that can never come
well so be it..

[your wish..choice is respected]

It's amazing how opening up and just talking to people about spiritual experiences brings out some amazing stories from others.

I have always been very open about my experiences, although, I know some people when I tell them, may think I am nuts.

I was talking to a few people the other day and we started talking about strange experiences we have had.

So to get people really open I told about my last two dreams, that I mentioned above in the thread..

Suddenly, the guy next to me, a quiet sort of guy, said... "That's the same experience I had".

He was given up for adoption within a family. His biological father was an alcoholic or something like that and so he really only met him a few times, when he was around 12.

He was overseas and one night he had a dream about his biological father.

He'd never done that before. He very rarely even thought of him, as he was never really a part of his life.

The next day, his phone rang, and he was informed that his biological father had passed away the day of the dream.

He has never told anyone this, because he thought people would think he was nutty. The way he opened up, just because he now knew that another person had experienced the same thing, was fabulous.

For 15 odd years he had sat on this event, because of what others might think and how others might judge him.

Like me, he had never gone to a psychic to find out more, he just accepted that there are things we just don't understand, like myself, and kept on with his life.

Onward and upward people...