The US State of Utah has just passed a bill for the introduction of gold and silver currency to be issued as legal tender.13 other states are considering doing likewise.This is because the US Federal Reserve is creating too much money,thus devaluing their currency.

Most of this money has not gone into the real economy.It has been used to prop up the derivative market and bail out foreign banks/countries.Many states in the US also look like defaulting on their bonds.This could signal the collapse of the US $.What is still holding up the $,is that oil is still traded in US $.

When the US $ begins its' real slide,countries all around the planet will bail out looking for stable currencies and assets.This is why states like Utah and now preparing for the worst.

There will be practical problems in using hard currency when doing transactions.It will slow economic activity unless a new currency is just backed by precious metals and new notes are issued by each state to equal them.So this will allow electronic transactions also making the economy interact just as fast.However for this to happen,Fed currency will have to undergo a conversion to Utah currency when it enters the state.It also allows those who own the precious metals to determine the value of the old Fed notes.So they may be subjugated by a different cabal of elites who owned all the gold, as happened in the 1890's Depression.

I think they will have to add copper into the equation and only have partial metal values in their new currency.Once this trend takes off, precious metals will go through the roof,but it will be better than images of the Weimar Republic,when a wheelbarrow of money would not buy a loaf of bread.

How do you think the collapse of the US $ will affect us here?

you must remember your talking to those who dont know
and those who dont want to know

they dont realise their pension funds
are all tied up in derivitives and 'bonds'

they dont realise that the imminent default and collaps
in the bond markets will see them go bust as well

they dont know that inflation is theft of worth/value

mate not even the usual crowd is commenting
its sad really

they dont know that bankbills[cash]
is only cash if it is underwriting true value..in coin

[coin is the ONLY lawfull ;constituted legal tender]
but hey why should we care
[we got our values in silver/coin]
let the world do as it will...only the real stuff has value

many hold gold bonds..[in fact there is 3 times more issued promises paper..for gold ..ten times more [paper]..promises for silver

they dont know the paper promises arnt worth paper its printed on

issue your own bond
use it to get gold
silver copper
nickle

*in hand

no one can eat promises

OUG fiat currency does work if there is proper regulation.The US Fed is out of control.It should never have been in control of the US currency.

People in the share market tell me that super funds are not involved in the derivative market.It is that complex ,how would they know? They could be buying a product like the phoney mortage products in the US that are exposed to the derivative market.Do our super funds here buy US Bonds?

You're in smoke-and-mirror territory here, Arjay.

According to what I have read, the Bill allows...

"...state minted gold and silver coins to be legally accepted as currency within their state's borders. The value will be based on the market price of the metals, not the face value stamped on the coins."

Please explain how this differs from the existing ability to buy and sell gold?

Ah, now I see it...

"...the legislation that would also exempt the sale of gold from the state capital gains tax"

That's the scam. Create an advantage for one section of the community - those who can afford gold - over those who cannot.

But seriously, this is not the starting point of a reintroduction of the gold standard, Arjay. As one commentator pointed out...

"Jeffrey Bell, the policy director for the Washington, D.C.-based American Principles Project, told legislators the bill would be seen as a "symbolic act."

An utter load of symbolics. Grandstanding, that's all. Tapping into the visceral dissatisfaction of a people who have been stopped from overspending on worthless properties, and don't like it much.

The whole point of the gold standard was that it was a fixed price. The whole point of coming off the gold standard was that as a metal, gold had no fixed price. As history has most forcefully shown us: just compare the last price of "standard" gold, and the price today.

You even admit as much yourself.

>>Once this trend takes off, precious metals will go through the roof<<

To whose advantage, Arjay?

Think it through.

You have an ounce of gold today, worth $1,375. It buys you 700 loaves of bread.

Tomorrow, it doubles to $2,750. How many loaves of bread will you be able to purchase with that ounce of gold?

Here's a hint: it won't be twice as many.

Pericles et al;
Another factor has entered the fray.
It appears that banks who hold gold are leasing gold.
That is you can invest in gold without having to actually possess the
physical gold.
It is something like trading in a derivative.
The catch is the banks have been leasing more gold than they hold.
I am sure you can see the risk there.

In the US many towns are dispensing with their police forces as they
just cannot afford to pay them. Other counties are letting their roads
go back to gravel as bitumen is too expensive.

Welcome to the post peak oil world !

It could be a scam Pericles just like the elites in the 1890's depression replaced gold with silver.That's why I'm suggesting using copper and a mixture of other metals because the worker won't have access to that money.They would be better off in my view issuing their own fiat Govt money.If it is controlled properly then the Govt would not have to borrow from private banksters.

Using a combination of coins and fiat money may be a good idea.

They could build infrastructure debt free like we partially did when we owned the Commonwealth and 4 state banks.

You seem a bit anxious Pericles.Got your shares and super in a safe place?

Arjay; No I don't think it is a scam. It is a desperation move.
The US Govt debt limit has almost been reached.
It will happen sometime this month it appears.
The republicans are still saying they will not increase the limit.
If the government reaches the limit they will not be able to honour
bonds that reach maturity and will have to stop paying pensions and
government salaries etc.

I just would not know how bad it would be on the world finance but I
cannot see us getting off scot free.
Interest rates would probably rise as borrowing by US govt and companies would be more risky.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/04/03/next-battle-in-congress-heats-up/

Bazz this is not happening because of post peak oil world.The Fed is perverting the money supply.The money they created from nothing went to their mates and the derivative market.When that market collapses and everyone tries to get out of US $,the real economy will be flooded with US $ and hyper-inflation begins.

So what we have now is an under supply of currency,and this is why some states look like defaulting.The US Federal Reserve has knocked their economy completely out of kilter.It could eventually mean stagflation,with rising inflation and rising unemployment on a shrinking economy.

Pericles,do you know how much exposure our super funds have to the US bond market?

Interesting theory, Arjay.

>>That's why I'm suggesting using copper and a mixture of other metals because the worker won't have access to that money<<

But it doesn't change the nature of the problem.

Without a fixed exchange rate between [insert metal of your choice here] and the market, all money-substitutes will fail the task that you have set them.

The reason is simple. Neither you nor I, nor the vast majority of folks on this planet, have access to the raw materials. We will always therefore be required to purchase our currency at the exchange price, where we have absolutely no control over the "value" of our money.

And even if you were somehow able to establish a fixed price for gold, silver, copper, tin, pig iron or whatever within your economy, you would instantly be held to ransom by countries who operated a more flexible system.

Think that one through for a moment. If in Australia you only accept metal as legitimate currency, how would we sell our minerals overseas? Say for instance you issued a 10c copper coin weighing around 11grams - that's about the size of our current 20c coin - which reflects the current price of copper at around $4/lb.

But the price of copper has doubled in the last year due to demand. It could easily i) double again or ii) halve in value to its point this time last year.

In the first instance, overseas buyers would buy up every coin in the country and export it themselves, making 100% profit in the process.

The only way around the second circumstance is to completely ignore the intrinsic value of the coin itself, and work only on its "face value".

In which case, guess what?

You have just created another fiat currency.

And as I pointed out before, if you alternatively allow its value to fluctuate with the underlying price of the metal, you are simply another commodities trader.

Which is not the primary job of money in any economy.

Arjay said;
Bazz this is not happening because of post peak oil world.The Fed is perverting the money supply.

Well indirectly it is peak oil because in trying to get the economy
running they have been pumping money into it flat out.
However they are not getting much action as growth has effectively stopped.
There is some growth in some areas and countries, but it is at the
cost of growth in other areas.
If the US congress refuses supply then there will be no Qualitative
Easing 3 known as pixel money.
I think many of the theories put forward by us mortals are probably
all correct and we are facing a very difficult time ahead.
There are probably multiple tensions developing and sooner or not
much later they will all set each other off with a mighty twang !
It will be interesting to see who is most right.

Pericles,Utah may as well create another fiat currency since the present currency is stuffed.Ron Paul said that competing currencies have worked in the past.Our economies are working so much faster now with electronic transactions.Hard currencies like metals will slow it down and thus there will be productivity losses.To me a new fiat currency issued by the Govt would be the best solution.

What the Bank of International Settlements,US Fed,IMF and the UN want,is a Global Fiat Currency which they will own,thus making them a defacto unelected World Govt.This is not on.

You might like to explain this with a little more clarity, Arjay.

>>Utah may as well create another fiat currency since the present currency is stuffed<<

In what manner is it "stuffed"?

Does a dollar not still buy a dollar's worth of soda? I think you may be confusing the currency with the economy - which, by the way, is not stuffed either. Not vibrant, you understand. But not stuffed.

>>Ron Paul said that competing currencies have worked in the past<<

Sure they have. It's called the exchange rate, and is commonly used in transactions between many different currencies.

But why would Ron Paul be advocating State-based competitive currencies? Seems a little odd.

Pericles,the US $ has just begun to slide.Soon it will collapse.There is a trend already to accept Euros and even Mexican Pesos in leiu of $.

I think we will see many states succeed from the Union and may well create their own currencies.Then they won't have all the debt that created by the Fed controlled Govt of Obama.Let the Federal Reserve pay all the debts,since they created the problem in the first place,

Very fanciful, Arjay.

>>I think we will see many states succeed [sic] from the Union and may well create their own currencies.<<

Neither of these will occur. Secession is not a serious option. And what would the States use to pay their existing debts?

Try thinking these things through, occasionally. You will quickly see how impractical they are.

The US will muddle through, and come out of this with a little less clout and - possibly - a more sober and realistic view of their position in the world economy.

Possibly.

Pericles is right,

South Africa has the Kruger Rand, and the US treasury has the gold eagle, both coins with 1 troy ounce of gold and nominally worth R1 and $1 as legal tender, but trading based on the value of the metal.

i will skip over how honest money means coin[only]
nickle often out values its face value
just like gold/silver/copper before it

but i said all that before

i just visited my regular news site
http://whatreallyhappened.com/

just about every topic screams for hearing
[we are going bad quicker than thought

but i will reply your question
'whats the alternative'

there is no one fix it for all the problems
like nbm cancelling all tender aplications..because the main tenders plan to sub tender it out

[thus have boosted up their tender price
into fanticy world..just like tendering in western australia[on the gas fields'project']

the cure for nbn is for govt to do the cable replacement..itself

[using work for the dole]..to do the 'work' needing to be done for a reasonable distance from home[say 5 or ten k]..with a bonus or share in their labours

[say free web connection
or a value in future nbn shares]

how to fix the govt debt problem..is via people needing to deney its obligated on them to repay ODIOUS debt[ie debt criminallly laid upon them..[re the p.i.g.s][bailing out bankers isnt govt responsability..[thats why they got fed reserves for]..

govt putting out bonds is why the fed was created
before the bankers subverted it into their own privatised franchise[literally a money creation machine]..by fiat[by decree]

trouble being they created a fiction..
that had no value in it]..so they simply 're-possesed' homes]
they never possesed in the first place
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/04/some-banks-should-face-criminal-charges-over-foreclosuregate/236838/

of course there are other problems
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5151512921334112942#
but these can be cured by govt seizing assets globally
[nationalisation]..
then returning to honest currency based on coin
[at real 'true'values]..1 cent=1 dollar]

leaving the fiat paper and securities market
to live [or die]..by the capitalists sword
[viability or non viability]
honest product/service

workers get paid in cash coin
not fiat credit..[in paper/notes]

why?
the system is broke
only the poor arnt broke
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBSMyS1CdL8&feature=related
and govt governs for the poor
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5151512921334112942#
http://dailybail.com/home/video-from-bankrupting-america-whos-more-responsible-charlie.html
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ndebt.php
http://dailybail.com/home/government-capture-by-the-big-4-accounting-firms.html
http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/Entries/2011/4/5_Richard_Russell_-_US_Dollar_Collapse_Will_Accelerate.html
http://dailybail.com/home/vanity-fair-exclusive-billions-over-baghdad-how-9b-disappear.html
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ARTICLE3/index.php

it may well be that the and and the gold dollar are really valued in the gold value[by many]..but fools think one dollar is allways worth one dollar

so here is how the clever fool the fools
say i will work for only a dollar a day
ie meaning a gruger rand..or gold dollar

im on the face of it only getting 1 dollar or one rand
[and paying any taxes on..a paper or 'fiat' dollar]

that states are issueing their own 'dollar'
means the state is paying some people
much more than..a 'paper' dollar
[in real value]..[ie in gold]..

yet on the 'face of it..
its only value is one dollar
[made up from 1000 dolars in gold values]

great..if you can get it?

see how easy it is to get conned
all coin must have honest face values
[or its a lie]..a dollar is a unit of measure*

it is a specific weight..
allowing the weight./.*to be the value
underpining its TRUE-exchange value

but i have explained it all so many time's
let the bankers/capitalists..play in paper/promises

let govts pay
*ONLY..in only coin

its by govts issueing promises[ie bonds...
bearing 'intrest'[ursury]
that governance has gotten corrupted

[lending its own money from bankers
and then bailing them out ..by putting bailouts upon the poor

govts can only mint
their coin in real values
in real metals or coin..[held mainly by the poor]

any fool can print paper money or paper bonds or legal-paper promises..these are the instruments of evil..[ok potential evil]

only by govts only working in coin
by returning true values to coin
[1 cent=one dollar]

can true sustainability
return to the money system

look at the constitution

only coin is lawfully constituted as legal/tender..!
chap v 115

Not so, one under god.

>>look at the constitution only coin is lawfully constituted as legal/tender..! chap v 115<<

Look again.

"115 States not to coin money
A State shall not coin money, nor make anything but gold and silver coin a legal tender in payment of debts."

This clause simply tells the States that they cannot issue their own currency, a process that remains the prerogative of the Commonwealth.

But the clause does allow, for example, the Perth Mint to issue metal coins with a face value...

http://www.perthmint.com.au/

...but you'd be a mug to use them that way to pay your grocery bill.

And I wouldn't try this, if I were you.

>>so here is how the clever fool the fools say i will work for only a dollar a day ie meaning a gruger rand..or gold dollar im on the face of it only getting 1 dollar or one rand [and paying any taxes on..a paper or 'fiat' dollar]<<

The ATO will assess the value transferred. Which in this case would be the value of the gold.

And they would find out, because your employer would have had to buy that "gold dollar", at the going rate. So his books would show that he paid you in real money, on which you would be required to pay tax. Don't forget, the employer has to withhold and report PAYE, so this is quite transparent.

"Money" has no intrinsic value. It is purely and simply a convenient method of value exchange. If you bury "money" in the ground, it has no value, whether as gold or as paper. It is only when you dig it up again and use it, that any value can be realised.

All this gabbing on about "fiat" currencies hides the simple fact that gold and silver (and any other metal you care to use) are themselves "fiat". Someone said, let it be so, and so it was. There's nothing particularly special about gold, after all.

It's just another mineral that we dig up. Like paper is just a tree in a substantially transformed state.

pericules your refering only to the first part
please read the 2 de part

""nor make anything
but gold and silver coin
a legal tender ...in payment of debts."

now we could be splitting hairs here
but govt[states govts]..cannot make fiat paper legal tender

cannot make credit transactions lawfull

[canot let others break the laws regulating trade/commerce etc..

to wit those business gaining benifits and privledges
under state regulatiions or franchise etc

it cant pay..AT A VERY MINIMUM
any state debt court cost fine wage etc

even state based law judgments cant rule in paper
[nor order the payment in unlawfull tender]

just as per 53 no proposed laws appropriating mioneys or imposing taxation may origonate in senet...[noting the styates gave up ALL Legislative powers in the preamble and chapter 1 part 1

['legislative powers shall be vested in federal parlement']

further part v [51]i
xii
xv1

also note without 58
virtually unknown to be done[especially in states]
the whole of legislation has become perverted

the privatisation of the fed has its fruits
no bill has ever been issued for it to rent the gold and silver to the bankers..yet this has been done globally...the whole monetisation ptrocess has been corrupted

the thing is it will soon collapse
by its own perversions

think how hard it is to remove coin[to bankrupt a country]
but via paper or credit it is as easy as a push of a button
why ya think they want a cashless society for

total control
to hide the vile they have been doing
i couldnt care a hoot about the rich..but like everything else
it will be the poor that will really suffer..thus re valuation of coin[you know the rich will soon get it from them]

top down dont work
lets try bottum up

next time

OUG,Fiat money can work if it is controlled by a Govt with a balanced constitution and not a private group of banksters with personal power and profit being uppermost.The fractional reserve system of banking must end for private banks.Goldmans Sachs in 2008 had leverage of 333:1 They were creating money from nothing,diluting the value of the US peoples' $,for person gain.This is counterfeiting.The Fannie May Freddie Mac scam was theft and they got away with it.

It works this way.The US Govt prints a bond(which is a promise to repay a loan with interest) The US Federal Reserve a private group of banks generates this money in their computers and then dispenses it on behalf of the US people.The US Govt is borrowing it to give it away.This is why Ron paul wants an audit of the Fed.They are a law unto themselves.Billions of $ remain unaccounted for.They have bailed out Aussie banks which very few people know about.

I was hoping the US economy would recover but they cannot even afford the interest owed to the Fed,let alone the principal.The world economy is stuffed because of the Fed.They are the dinosaur that must go.

i agree with you arjay
the thing is govts lending money..
to bailout those they borrow it from*

is clearly a scam..[but why cant others see it]

here we have govt...who was forced by ww1
into issuing more war-bonds
than they had in gold/silver/copper coin

bankers bought up the bonds
then demanded their payment*[in full] in coin

of course govt didnt have the coin
[gold silver or copper]

so the bankers
...made govt declare bankruptcy*

...forced govt ..*to give control of
the federal reserve/treasury and the worlds mints
over to the bankers..[12 bankers]

the story is revealed in
'the creature from jeckle island'

bankers then issued fiat bank money[bills]
[paper 'bank'-bills]..controlled and issued
by the banker's controling the fed etc

the bankruptcy
..liqudation trust holder

in time THEY.. the gold..[de monetised it]
gave it to the bankers

then they did it to silver..[many will recall pounds
worth their weight*..in shillings and penny weights
even dollar=weights]

many will also recall
the words on early bank-notes
saying this note can be redemed at the commonwealthbank
for one pound 'sterling'[silver]coin

[the silver was lost to the people
at decimalisation..when we gave up silver coins
[now valued at 2 dollars a shilling]

ie the value of its silver

for a nice new shinny decimal/NICKLE-ten cent piece
...now containing nickle VALUE..near ten cents*

yet still costing more ..han a nice BANKOnote
costing 7 cents each to print[regardless of face value]

and soon the only way
to pay debt..shall be in credit
[created/issued and held by bankers..at the push of a button]

recall a one cent copper coin?

it has 5 cents worth of copper in it

thus the bankers stole it all..
and next they shall steal our nickle

but
as a matter of..*HRH's honour*..

[after all her face..is on the coin
ASSURING US..OF ITS TRUE WEIGHT's..AND VALUE's]

..any nickle coin*
..should have equal value
to the coin..*in silver

[as constituted*..decreed/in our constitution]
decreed=*[fiat]

I think you may have missed the key point of the Constitution, one under god.

>>pericules your refering only to the first part please read the 2 de part<<

The Constitution was document drawn up to cover the issues of Federation. Its focus was therefore on what is the remit of the Commonwealth, as opposed to the States.

>>govt[states govts]..cannot make fiat paper legal tender<<

Exactly. But the Commonwealth can make legal tender. Out of anything it likes - paper, shells, wampum, whatever. But the States cannot.

So when you say...

>>...even state based law judgments cant rule in paper [nor order the payment in unlawfull tender]<<

...you are absolutely correct, in that they cannot use their own, State-originated currency. But they can ask for Australian legal tender, issued by the Commonwealth.

But you know this, because you have read Section 51.

And please, Arjay, if you don't understand what you are saying, don't say it.

>>Goldmans Sachs in 2008 had leverage of 333:1 They were creating money from nothing,diluting the value of the US peoples' $,for person gain.This is counterfeiting<<

I can only presume that you are referring to the notional exposure that GS had in 2008 to the derivatives market, which was an astounding $40 trillion. Incidentally, ahead of them on that particular ladder were JP Morgan, with $80 trillion.

Let me ask you a question.

Where is that money, now? On which balance sheet can you see it?

Bear in mind that i) US GDP is in the region of $15 trillion, ii) world GDP is around $65 trillion. Such amounts of money do not exactly go unnoticed, if they are in fact real.

Let me explain it to you in simple terms.

You go to the bookies with $1000, which you place on a six-race accumulator. At that point, the bookies potential liability could be astronomical, agreed? Probably significantly more than his entire net worth. But he still took your money.

Derivatives are closely aligned with gambling, and the financial "exposure" is calculated in the same way.

ok i guess..we are narriowing down to a finer point

you said..""Australian legal/tender,..issued by the Commonwealth.""

thats just the point arjay and i are talking about
govt isnt issueing..its lending..[at intrest]
if govt..*'issued'..it would be intrest/free

you clearly are studied in this topic
so lets clarify..how the process goes

govt votes for a money/bill
then someone..generates a bond..[with a set intrest rate]

can we presume the fed..issues the bond
or monetises it?

[like in usa the only one currently converting
the govt bond..into cash is their fed

or is it..the treasury

it certainly isnt the mint
the mint takes its..orders from the fed reserve

[and bankers control the fed]..,NOT govt

but lets expand it

i pay my tax..it goes where..
[which account held in what govt-dept puts it on its ledger in its vault]..thing is the govt/banker..is the fed..

and the fed is an exclusive franchise
controled by the bankers

its all convoluted
treasury should hold all govt funds

so where is our silver and gold?[and copper]

in usa..it could be said to be held at fort-knox
[but the cleaners there report the 'gold'..held in fort-knox is rusting..[and we know REAL GOLD dont rust]

but no/one can audit the fed
no-one can check if fort-knox gold..is really gold

[and it isnt..[no audit]..it was leased-out to bankers
[at 44$..44 cents an ounce]

they sold it onto the market
and made a motza..and if FORCED to return the LEASED gold
havnt got the funds..to buy it back

thus they go/are bust
govt bails them out
to hide the crime

its criminal

but please help us..to explain
here..in this topic
not on some link

it cant be too hard
to say your cash..is here
or there..

or stolen by the fed-reserv/bankers
its gone...

to create it
it goes onto the books
when its paid off
it leaves the books..

thus
no money-trail

aint that just too clever by half
banks make the credit..then lend it to govt
[even selling the 'bond']

thats where it becomes criminal;

''Australian legal tender,[is]
issued by the Commonwealth.""?

how..?
PROVE IT

The Fed is also stealing from you also Pericles.We do not know where a great deal of this money has gone.Remember the Alan Grayson Ben Bernanke interview? Half a trillion $ of public money was unaccounted for.Grayson asked where this money had gone.Bernanke said "I won't tell you." You call that democracy?

Why do you ignore the fact that the Fed is the major source of inflation and destruction of our economies?

The next scam as in the other depressions is to restrict the money supply by increasing interest rates.So now that they have destroyed production in the USA,their derivative scams will collapse pouring their worthless money into the real economy causing hyper-inflation and high interest rates.It will be stagflation.Smaller retail Banks may call in loans forcing people to sell up their houses/assets for a fraction of their value.

Your ability to complicate really simple concepts is becoming legendary, one under god.

>>thats just the point arjay and i are talking about govt isnt issueing..its lending..[at intrest] if govt..*'issued'..it would be intrest/free<<

The only point about "issuing" in the context of the Constitution (which you brought up, remember), is that the Commonwealth can, and States can't. That means nothing more nor less than there exists the concept of an Australian dollar, which is negotiable currency here and overseas, and there does *not* exist a negotiable Queensland dollar, or a NSW dollar etc.

You share with Arjay a form of logical snow-blindness when it comes to the concept of money. It is fundamentally simple and straightforward.

So here's a quick tutorial. I don't expect you to understand it all straight away, but it should give you some ideas to work on.

There is no such thing as interest-free money in our economy.

Except of course for the banknotes you hide under the mattress. Otherwise, every dollar comes with a price tag.

Think about it for a moment. Under what circumstances would governments "issue" interest-free money. Where does it come from, and to whom does it go?

If governments spend more than they take in taxation, they need to borrow. That's where all those bonds and stuff come in. Take away the overspend, and away goes the need to fund the deficit. (It's not actually all black-and-white, governments may choose to issue bonds for other reasons, but I'm keeping this as simple as I can).

So you are confusing two things: the need to raise cash to fund operations, which is repayable at a later date, with interest. And the actual raising of that cash, which is purely a mechanical, transparent and entirely legal process.

Hope this helps. It is an important area to understand.

And Arjay, you really should know better by now.

>>Remember the Alan Grayson Ben Bernanke interview? Half a trillion $ of public money was unaccounted for.Grayson asked where this money had gone.Bernanke said "I won't tell you."<<

This was the actual exchange, from the transcript.

Grayson: “So who got the money?”
Bernanke: “Financial institutions in Europe and other countries.”
Grayson: “Which ones?”
Bernanke: “I don’t know.”
Grayson: “Half a trillion dollars and you don’t know who got the money?”

The question was not "where did it go?" He already answered that - "Financial institutions in Europe and other countries."

He was asked to specify which overseas financial institutions borrowed the money. (Note the word: borrowed. They paid it back.)

The fact that he was unable to specify which exact overseas institutions borrowed from the Fed is hardly surprising. There were probably more than a dozen of them. And, quite likely at the time, that information was just a little confidential. And not necessarily just for the Fed - there might have been sound reasons for the overseas banks themselves to rely upon some confidentiality.

This is just another example of a politician-on-the-make twisting words to make himself look clever, like a wannabe Jerry Springer on a tawdry low-rent cable TV show.

>>...now that they have destroyed production in the USA,their derivative scams will collapse pouring their worthless money into the real economy causing hyper-inflation and high interest rates.It will be stagflation.<<

Admit it, Arjay. You haven't a single clue what any of that means. Why do you keep parrotting it?

To prove me wrong, explain how the collapse of a derivative scam, as you call it, will pour "worthless money into the real economy".

I'm prepared to bet that you cannot do this.

Sadly, it never seems to stop you waffling on about it.

perridicules/quote..""There is no such thing as interest-free money in our economy.""

if i hold a govt bond for two %*intrest
paid for by govt loan...intrest free

[like the usa fed/bankers are currently holding in usa]
im getting two percent...for doing nuthing

of course as inflation is running abouve the quoted mark [3 to 5 %]
yess effectivly we and they are both loosing..but we far more than they

[ours is real money..real assets
against real debts..theirs are just book entries]

your right..."every dollar..comes with a price tag""
yes..its the inflation
that deflates the value.

thus what was a dolar
now has deflated to under 2 cents in real value

""Under what circumstances would governments "issue" interest-free money.""

as like revealed in links
a usa govt issuing bonds no one but the fed is buying
[and only by monetory easing and fixed low intrst deceite

""Where does it come from,''
it comes from tax/intrest and fees and charges
levied upon the mugs..paying as they earn..or spend

""and to whom does it go?""
i asked you first

but basiclly it goes to govt who sends it to treasury
who banks it to the fed..who offset it against bonds they hold

but you could possably enlighten us better

""If governments spend more than they take in taxation,
they need to borrow.""

they do this by issueing a govt bond

""Take away the overspend,
and away goes the need to fund the deficit.""
so we would think
but look at how we were debt free
but the labrats put us back into debt

thing is we didnt get back the fed bank
so whats the use

""raising of that cash,
which is purely a mechanical,
transparent and entirely legal process.""

where the bankers scam off the cream
[creating as much money/credit
as govt bonds declare will carry intrest burden

your just feeding back what i allready said

who runs the fed reserve?
who owns it?

who tells the mint to print money?
or mint coin?

OUG. Pericles is a lost cause.I implore you to see http://www.secretofoz.com/ by Bill Still.'The Wizard of Oz' by L Frank Baum had deep economic meaning for us all.In the book Dorothy had silver slippers.In the movie of 1939 with Judy Garland, she had ruby slippers to suit the new technicolour movies.Much meaning was lost in the movie.

The crime of 1873 happened when the elites in Britian forced the USA to withdraw the more freely available silver currency from circulation
and replace it with gold.The elites had all the gold and so were able to steal all the assests from the masses,since they were able to determine the value of their currency.The Tin Woodman represented the factory worker who needed oil( the liquidity of money to move)The Scarecrow represented seemingly ignorant the farmer who really had knowledge of how the economy worked.The cowardly lion represented Willaim Jenning Brian,who was for a while the champion of the silver movement.Brian was running for President in reality and L Frank Baum had accompanied him in many of his campaigns.The Wicked Witches of the East and West were JP Morgan and Rockerfeller the two major banking interets of that time.

So make the effort OUG and see how history is trying to warn us of impending financial doom but gives also the solutions to our economic salvation.

It is difficult to follow you sometimes, one under god. And this is one of those times.

You seem to agree with me that there is no such thing as interest-free money, as all the examples you give - bonds and stuff - have interest rates attached to them.

>>""Where does it come from,'it comes from tax/intrest and fees and charges<<

There's that interest again - so not "interest-free"

>>""and to whom does it go?"" i asked you first<<

Since there is no such thing, my question was either rhetorical or hypothetical, take your pick.

The only way to eliminate interest from the equation is to eliminate borrowing/lending. That is not going to happen.

And Arjay, I notice that you did not even attempt to justify your spray about "derivative scams" with any facts. But we both know that you haven't a clue about financial stuff, you just cut'n'paste from your favourite conspiracy site, don't you.

But spare us the tarradiddle about the Wizard of Oz.

You'll be reading tea-leaves next.

im familour with the wizard of ounces[oz]
but it only makes sense after you know what was done

clearly perculiour dosnt know
or as i prefers to put it...
he pretends to not know

quote''You seem to agree with me
that there is no such thing as interest-free money,""

dont put words in my mouth
money..IS SUPPOSED TO BE A FIXED MEASURE*
with a FIXED VALUE*..

but sadly those who feast on the value of our funds
have made it so all value..[fiat value]
deflates or inflates

as they limit or flood supply of their FIAT paper

""bonds..have interest rates attached to them.""
thats correct..but bonds arnt money
they are value

the value of a promise to pay
[only as valuble as the honour
of those who made the bond..[promise]

bank notes are only the value of their promise
to pay in REAL MONEY[coin]

you jump on my explanation
of where govt gets its money from

but your question deliberatly confounds
those trying to make sense of this topic

in the beginning..
you or i found the gold/silver

and sent it to govt..who cleaned it up to a purity
certified it to be pure..and put a monetry value on it

on the face of the coin*

ie govt made money..for us for free*

[you really should try to get
what arjay is trying to say]

anyhow that was fine for a while
till some got too much 'gold/silver'
and those licenced to do the refining

...issued promise notes
[easier to carry]
assured quality and quantity

[again for free..and promising specific weights
in pounds weight..dollar weights ..penny weights..shilling weights..and other WEIGHTS and measures..

again there was no intrest upon it
no inflation
no deflation

FIXED assured value
underwritten by govt

and govt rule and regulation
things were great...we trusted gold
gold was god[good]
[in 'g' we trust]

but there was too much gold
not enough paper promises

so they abused the paper promise system
issued far more paper promises than they had gold
then the bust..[so many busts...in histry]

[hundreds of times has this been done
from ceazer to kennedy..lincon etc
all were asasinated trying to give [return to]...honest value
direct

by issueing their own money promise

ie,[not using lying money changers..
and paying their extortion[ursury]

the money[value]..get lost via wars..
[where one king would pretend to fight
with another [cousan king]..to bring an unruly peasentry into line
or bring in a new excuse to tax the peasents ..or simply destroy value in certain areas..to help people move on..etc

anyhow the kings soon didnt have no money
so issued checks[bonds]..with ursury to bankers

also called securities
these had PROMISE of ursury[intrst]..on it..
those money traders of jesus time..mainly hasidic jews

[see the bible outlaws xtain charging xtian ursury]
ditto jew charging jew ursury
and yes even arab charging arab intrest

certainly ursuriors have caused plenty of pain
litle wonder jesus was so upset with that lot

you asked/as i asked..""and to whom does it go?""

you replied..""Since there is no such thing,
my question was either rhetorical or hypothetical,
take your pick.""

i call it missleading
govt validates [underwrites]..value
this value could be gold or a house..or a promise to work

either way
govt dont need to borrow at intrest...
only needs to *recognise egsisting value

but you should know that allready
as should govt

but no
it sucks our taxes
to feed greedy bankers

ever more paper promises
from fools [ursurors]..who lie

jesus wept
if only you could explain it better

I'll try, one under god.

>>jesus wept if only you could explain it better<<

But it isn't easy to know where to start You have difficulty even with the fundamentals.

For instance:

>>money..IS SUPPOSED TO BE A FIXED MEASURE* with a FIXED VALUE*... on the face of the coin*<<

This is emphatically not the case.

Think of Arjay's tally sticks for a moment. Was it important which tree the wood came from? Not at all. It was the number and nature of the notches that counted.

But more to the point, was the "value" of those notches in any way "fixed"? And the answer is "no, it depends entirely on what the stick is used for". The notches were significant in that they carried a meaning - "one shilling", "one penny" etc. - but the actual value of the stick could vary.

If I have a tally stick that says "you owe me five farthings", and you flee the country, what is the value of my currency?

Not a lot. I could light a fire with it, that's all.

If you didn't flee, but were simply unable to pay when I asked, what then? I'd probably sell my tally stick - at a discount - to someone more able to get you to pay.

If you get my drift...

Which is the entire point about money. There are many variables apart from its face value. Time is one of those, which is where interest comes in. Interest is the value attached to money, over time.

>>...bank notes are only the value of their promise to pay in REAL MONEY[coin]<<

Certainly not. Their value fluctuates daily. Our A$1 is today valued at US$1.04. On this day two years ago, it was US$0.71. How would you factor that into a definition of "real money"?

And in this last outtake of yours, you could not be more profoundly, completely and utterly... wrong.

>>govt validates [underwrites]..value this value could be gold or a house..or a promise to work<<

No government has ever promised, or validated, or underwritten, any such thing.

Nor will they. Ever.

"Spare us the twaddle." Then you mention tally sticks and think that history will teach you nothing? Pericles you must be a Globalist of the New World Order ilk.Do you think we should have an international currency owned and controlled by the the likes of Rothschilds,Loeb Bros,Goldman Sachs Rockerfeller etc?

The reason why Utah is going for gold and silver is that the Fed Res owned by the above has destryed the US currency and its' economy.They will soon come for the rest of you super Pericles,when the Bond market and their theiving derivative scams collapse.Only a fool has faith in those who have absolute power,since absolute power corrupts absolutely.

ahhhh tally-sticks
now your talking

[ya know one quater of the british main-bank
was 'bought'..with a tally-stick]

many usa banks were formed..by a promise of funds
that only appeared after the leverage system..created the extra funds

we wont talk about how one dollar..in the "fed"
generated credit for ten dollars..then[up to 99 dolars today]

yes its an easy way to make money
put in one dolar..get a hundred..in credit

[it was the main reason i withdrew my funds
[i wasnt getting intrest anyhow..
and deprived the bank of leveraging..my money
to make their bonus

but back to the root
the tally-stick

you should explain a tally-stick was split in two
[after recording the notiches]

each held half the stick..as proof of a FIXED debt
or FIXED credit owed..it was honest..each stick was fixed as it was

[extra notches ..not matching the other stick indicated a crime

little wonder that lasted hundreds of years
you had your proof..in ya hand..
neither the bank nor you could change 'your' other stick

*SO THE VALUES WERE FIXED
[shillings pennies pounds ARE FIXED WEIGHTS
in fixed metal coin]

ya get that
dont you?

notches..for shillings
are only notches for shillings/weight
[not pounds]

two halves of a stick*..match
or they dont

SO
you were wrong

how does this WRONG
make the other things you said right?

fixed value fixed on a stick
is as good as,..fixed in stone

as long as you keep the stick safe
its as safe..or safer than paper

BUT
neither is as safe as coin

lets say you sign a loan

i got paper...i bundle the paper..with other paper
and lo i got a security..then i get my mate
to say this debt is AAA
not BBB..

and we got enough 'security'..to take your pension funds

even if they are only just paper-promises
and mostly thats egsactly what they are

see what people dont know
is only the origonal signers..have a 'contract'
i cant sell my contract to you..

because you got no lawfull*standing
[arnt a co-signing stakeholder
at the origonal signing..]

[or your signature would be on the stick..[sorry con-tract]

thing is our pensions/funds
hold faulse paper promises

thats why many repossesion orders
are getting kicked out of court

the origonal 'loan' got paid in full
when it got onsold..in a bundle..

[or rather when the blue-ink contract
got on sold]

yeah you could sell ya stick
[they really are quite collectable]

but by and large your paper promises
arnt worth the paper they are printed on

[if they got no weight in court
or cant be enforced..you got paper]

and in this day and age they
dont even have a colectable 'duty paid'.. stamp on it
and some of those that did..[well i collect them]

prefer holding them
than letting bankers use/abuse/loose my value

""I'd probably sell my tally stick..at a discount - to someone more able to get you to pay.""

they would have the stick
in court that USED to be enough
but now we sign it..if your not the signee
you got bucklies ..thats the trouble with selling'securities'

a photocopy of a stick wont do

but then you use that point
to make this
""Which is the entire point about money.
There are many variables apart from its face value.""

the value may vary
the paper may rot/burn/despoil..be de monetised
but as for selling it
[with any hope of getting the govt to honour it]

i hold lots of money...thousands of yen/pounds etc

govts tell me its worthless
heck you can buy it on the web for cents

""Time is one of those,
which is where interest comes in.""lol
"""Interest is the value attached to money,..over time.""

but its NOT..*on the money
its on the blue ink sig-nature..[paper security][loan agreement]

with its*mark of the beast..sig-nature
that saw us getting $$..with intrest put upon it]

$$ of intrest
only to be gotten from bankers
[BY working for bankers]..to get it

"">>...bank notes are
the value..of their promise to pay in REAL MONEY[coin]<<""
""Certainly not...Their value fluctuates daily.
Our A$1 is today valued at US$1.04.""

money fluctuates..against other money
depending on how good the market feels it to be

the wealthy know this..set their debt in rapidly inflating money
[at fixed intrest rates]..then pay it off..when the exchange value of their fixed debt..reaches near zero

[like when the deutchmark fell
to billions of marks to post an envolope]..

THEFT of value can only be done
withpaper value[fiat money decreeing it as value

deeming it a unit of exchange that has value
when its only a franchise..bankers MONEY CHANGERS..*stole from govt

THING IS the worlds feds been stealing from us
the whole time..inflating..deflating..
as best suits their intrests
not ours

SEE WHAT YOUR DEFENDING

""How would you factor that into a definition of "real money"?""
its not real money..its paper[fiat]by decree

only coin holds..ITS VALUE..IN THE METAL

you cant steal value
if its in the coin's..*metal
[thats my point]

"">>govt validates [underwrites]..""
THE PURETY OF THE GOLD/SILVER..IT TURNED/converted..INTO COIN...!

""No government has ever promised,or validated,or underwritten,any such thing.""

thats what...govt run mints..did..
[assure[uassage]..essay..the quality/quantity
of the coins metal

you twist one point
to try to defend bankers
ripping us off..with paper promises

IN COIN I TRUST
[or rather the market/value of its metal]

OUG,you won't convince Pericles.Perhaps he thinks he is big enough to soar with the winged devils of the World Central Banks.They have the capacity to ruin our economies totally.With the Bond market collapse,the Fed can call in all the loans to our banks and so the retail banks will call in their loans and prices of all assets will collapse here.It would mean total chaos.

In 2008-9 the US Federal Res bailed out Westpac for over $ 1 billion and NAB for $4.5 billion.The RBA borrowed $ 54 billion from the Fed Res.Why then did Rudd borrow another $ 40 billion from China and did China loan this money to us in US $? What has the RBA done with that $ 54 billion?

This money that the Fed loaned to us was part of the $2 trillion they conjured out of nothing and loaned to institutions around the planet not wanting to tell Alan Grayson and Congress where the US peoples' money had gone.

Our RBA could have conjured up all the money in their computers,just like the Fed and become lenders of first resort.We are are now paying like the US people to have our money depreciated and incur more debt for our efforts.It is an absolute theiving scam and our pop are too stupid to grasp it!

Split tally

The split tally was a verifyable technique to exchange values..which became common in medieval Europe,..which was constantly short of money(coins)..and predominantly illiterate,..in order to record bilateral exchange and debts.

A stick..(squared Hazelwood sticks were most common)
was marked with a system of notches..and then split lengthwise.

This way the two halves..both record the same notches
and each party to the transaction received one half of the marked stick as proof.

Later this technique was refined in various ways and became virtually tamper proof...One of the refinements..was to make the two halves of the stick of different lengths.

The longer part was called stock
and was given to the party..which had advanced money..to the receiver.

The shorter portion of the stick..was called foil
and was given to the party..which had received the funds/goods.

Using this technique..each of the parties had an identifiable and tamper-proof record of the transaction....

as the short stick was the debitor..[in court cite..the drawing of the short straw]..saw you loose..[owe the debt]..be debitor not creditor..

The split tally was accepted as legal proof in medieval courts and the Napoleonic and heraldic Code...as a tool of the Exchequer..for the collection of taxes by local sheriffs.

The system of tally marks of the Exchequer
is described as follows:

The manner of cutting..

At the top of the tally..a cut is made,..
*the thickness of the palm of the hand,..to represent a thousand pounds;
*a hundred pounds by a cut the breadth of a thumb;

twenty pounds,..the breadth of the little finger;
a single pound,..the width of a swollen barleycorn;

a shilling..rather narrower than a penny
is marked by a single cut without removing any wood.

The split tally of the Exchequer was in continuous use until 1826...In 1834,..the tallies themselves were ordered to be burned in a stove in the Houses of Parliament,..but the fire went out of control,setting the building afire....[why?]..[royal tallies?][bankers hiding proof?]

Royal tallies..(debt of the Crown)
also played an infamous role in the formation of the Bank of England at the end of the 17th century when these royal tallies,trading at a hefty discount of up to 60 percent,..were engrafted..into the Bank's capital stock.

It is good that you have at least checked Wikipedia, one under god, to understand the background and significance of tallies.

I notice that you included the bit about the royal tallies...

>>Royal tallies..(debt of the Crown) also played an infamous role in the formation of the Bank of England at the end of the 17th century when these royal tallies,trading at a hefty discount of up to 60 percent,..were engrafted..into the Bank's capital stock.<<

Did you notice the bit about the discount?

How does that fit with your earlier statement...

>>the tally-stick you should explain a tally-stick was split in two [after recording the notiches] each held half the stick..as proof of a FIXED debt or FIXED credit owed..it was honest..each stick was fixed as it was<<

Think for a moment about the discount of 60%. How does that fit with the "fixed amount" concept? It doesn't, does it.

All forms of money are subject to variation. Including gold, silver, copper - all of it. As you are aware.

>>IN COIN I TRUST [or rather the market/value of its metal]<<

Which makes it all the more odd that you think that paper money should be any different.

And Arjay, please, that's just plain silly.

>>Do you think we should have an international currency owned and controlled by the the likes of Rothschilds,Loeb Bros,Goldman Sachs Rockerfeller etc?<<

This is not about conspiracy. It is a discussion about the fact that Utah thinks it is smart to use gold and silver as currency. Which both you and I agree achieves nothing.

>>The reason why Utah is going for gold and silver is that the Fed Res owned by the above has destryed the US currency and its' economy.<<

Nonsense. It is nothing more than political grandstanding. No-one believes that it will happen, or that it would solve anything.

>>They will soon come for the rest of you super Pericles,when the Bond market and their theiving derivative scams collapse<<

Which reminds me, you haven't explained what happens when "derivative scams" collapse.

Where do those trillions of dollar go, Arjay?

tally sticks arnt money
they represent 'money'
just like paper represents the only real money..[ie coin]

real coin money has its value in its metal purity
when all metal money ias equal..values are equal
if we represent the value..by a stick[or bond or paper]
this can be discounted[and was]

discounting means someone gets the short end
of the tally stick..[its the people getting the short end here]

thing is then as now power corrupts
[see a public official..cutting a bit off the debit stick
and turning it into a credit

[thus the discount..as a few took a short stick..
then made the long stick shorter

[just like central bankers do at whim today]
they create it at whim..then disappear it off the books
at whim..and no one can check the books..
thus we all get the short shrift stick
all get stick shifted

such a trickey stickey wicket
hope its giving you wood defending them
bank note in paper costs 7 cents[regardless of value]
supply of paper is infinite...metals are not infinite..

thus will last longer than paper promises

[imagine when our value is in cyber credits.
.they cost even less..
then..at a whim we all get shorted[short sticked]

and were all left
holding the wrong end of the tally stick

your not getting shafted with a sharp stick cutter yet
but wait mate..soon the writing will be on the wall for all to se not only what was done..but what they are still trying to do to all of you

who holds the bigger stick
you want length of stick to rule?
or be stuck holding the wrong end..[the dirty end of his-tory]

do you need to be hit on the head with a big stick
to catch onto the stick/trick?

"""
Which reminds me,
you haven't explained what happens when "derivative scams" collapse.

Where do those trillions of dollar go, Arjay?""

ever heard of bankers bonus
and commision..fees and charges?

how thick are you trying to be here?

i love ya like a brother
but bro

why you giving us stick for
take the big stick to the big money

its them got yours
and if not now
then soon

if you cant see how the real value..of your savings are shrinking
[as your banked dollars devalue]..your just too clever by half

if you divested

what about the rest of the ignorants
who didnt know any better

who trusted scumm
thought this or that bank was different
when they all run the same scam

the only ones going to get ANY..of the utah gold
are their mates

worth watching
mark keiser report
[not seen in oz]
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/mike-krieger-explains-why-silver-bullets-are-only-defense-against-modern-financial-vampires

http://maxkeiser.com/2011/04/08/as-i-predicted-after-goldman-sachs-broke-the-law-they-lobbied-the-sec-to-change-the-law/

safe deposit boxes arnt safe
http://lonestarwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/04/get-your-gold-out-of-safety-deposit.html

[i recall when they stole our silver coins
those who had them in safe deposit baxes
found they had been swapped../roled over..into paper

Regime Change Libya: Privatization of their Central Bank and the Theft of their Nationalized Oil Profits
http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2011/03/29/un-resolution-in-libya-is-about-oil-and-their-central-banking-system-updated/#more-15364

It has always been about gaining control of the central banking system in Libya. Oil is just a profitable side issue like every other state asset that is waiting in Libya to be privatized and sold off to multinational corporations like Bechtel, GE, and Goldman Sachs.

Oil is important and it is certainly a target but it isn’t the driving force behind these global wars for profit. Banking is.

Once the Coalition Provisional Authority took over in Iraq, the second thing they did, after signing a law banning the Baathists and disbanding the military, was to sign over the state-owned central banking system to privately held banking interests, bringing Iraq online with the web of private central banks.
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=24225

That took place the very first day of the CPA’s control of Iraq.
http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2011/04/05/libya-oil-banks-water-the-united-nations-and-americas-holy-crusade/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1375018/Denis-Avey-broke-Auschwitz-expose-Holocaust-account-insult.html

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-08/libya-risks-somalia-like-chaos-as-fighting-drags-on-russia-s-ivanov-says.html

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hAzJt69xg5XgM4TCDoZBGk5yTJkg?docId=a5c1de3b3b1140b7a884491dd2591351
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/judea_declares_war_on_germany.jpg
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=14534
usa become disfunctional
http://www.bushstole04.com/Obama_Presidency.htm/obama_neo_conservative.htm
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/04/globalists-coming-full-circle-obama.html

http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=14533
http://www.grist.org/industrial-agriculture/2011-04-06-monsanto-cash-helped-fund-bill-to-stifle-whistleblowers-in-iowa

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article27843.htm
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/04/us-to-delay-china-currency-report.html
http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/barack-obamas-budget-for-2012-a-complete-and-total-joke

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ayxot9vQ_k

try to visit
just a few links

its time ...you knew
or at least tried to read some of the past posts at the blogs
[media wont tell you..the bankers bought them first]

OUG,Thanks for the links.Max Kaiser was on the Fall of the Republic.Finding the time is the issue.

We all have to start pushing for the formation of Govt Banks again.

That will be a start.The Rothschilds are pushing for the Yuan to be the World Reserve Currency and have initiated an Equity fund of $750 million US to entice China to join them.

I don't think that this will end well.The devils who have started all the past wars for profit are at it again.They want to accumulate even more of our assets.Stealing half our super was not enough.

Every country they invade has either oil,gas or valuable resources.Afghanistan has over $ trillion in Lithium.The really big prize is Iran.They cannot find a good enough excuse to invade it.

This lust for power and wealth is like a cancer,eating away at our humanity.It has to be attacked on many fronts.The source of that power is the Global Reserve Banking system.We have to push for Govt banks and slowly lower the fractional reserve ratio.

Cheers,Arjay.

Think it through, one under god, just one more time.

>>tally sticks arnt money
they represent 'money'
just like paper represents the only real money..[ie coin]
real coin money has its value in its metal purity
when all metal money ias equal..values are equal<<

Gold only "represents" money too, you know. It cannot, of itself, ever "be" money.

Here's an example.

You have a 1/10th oz. gold coin, let's say, that would have been "worth" US$25.66, on this day exactly ten years ago.

http://www.usagold.com/reference/prices/history.html

Today it is "worth" US$146.90

But only if you sell it for banknotes, then go into the shop and buy something with them. Woolworths can't accept your coin, as they are not licensed gold dealers.

Switch it around for a moment, and think in terms of "face value"

Let's call that 1/10th oz. coin the "OZ". Let's imagine that in return for a day's work at the call-centre back in 2001, they gave you 10 OZ. Would you expect them to give you the same wage (10 OZ) today? Given the price of the underlying metal, you'd be lucky to get 2 OZ.

Is that starting to become clearer?

Your idea that "real coin money" is somehow less vulnerable to fluctuation is, quite simply, wrong.

You also need to understand the sheer volume of metal needed to provide every Australian with "real coin money". Contemplate that for a moment. Then tell yourself what would happen to the price of the raw material, if you turned every transaction into one that had to be backed by "real money".

And a word about "discounts".

>>discounting means someone gets the short end
of the tally stick..[its the people getting the short end here]<<

In this context, a discount simply represents risk, and/or time. In the case of a Bond, it is mostly the estimation of value forgone, from that point in time, to the Bond's maturity.

No-one is robbing anyone with discounts. They are a perfectly simple mechanism to satisfy buyer and seller, that they are each getting a good deal.

But the question has to be asked Arjay, so what?

>>The Rothschilds are pushing for the Yuan to be the World Reserve Currency and have initiated an Equity fund of $750 million US to entice China to join them.<<

Here's your homework for today:

"The Australian Dollar has never been a World Reserve Currency. Has the Australian economy been damaged or boosted by this lack of status? For extra credit: how would this situation change, should the World Reserve Currency become the Yuan?"

If you get through that without serious injury, try this one:

"The IMF is floating the concept that the US Dollar should no longer be the World Reserve Currency, and that SDRs should replace them. Discuss the impact of such a move on the economies of the i) the US, ii) China and iii) Australia. For extra credit: justify the role of the SDR in today's nearly-post-GFC world."

Of course, the third and final question, which carries 80% of the total marks, will underline how well you understand international finance.

"China is under some pressure to make the Yuan the World Reserve Currency. If you were required to advise the National People's Congress, would you propose that this role be embraced or rejected. Limit your answer to the three major issues - it's impact on the domestic economy, on the world economy, and on foreign relations. For extra credit, explain why you would get a body-double to make such a proposal to the Congress"

If you can, for extra credit and a distinction, explain how the international cabal of banksters and robber-barons should position themselves in this unfolding scenario.

Pericles,I've never suggested the Aus $ be the world's reserve currency,our economy is too small.There is method in the madness of Rothschilds and some in the USA.China has intentionly kept the value of their currency low to be top of the export pyramid.So by making the Yuan the world's reserve currency,they will have to float it,thus it will be valued upwards.This will give countries like India,Vietnam the manufacturing edge and slow the growth and power of China.

The intent of these Global Banksters,is too get a foot hold in the Govt Banking system of China and make China more dependant upon the Rothschild phoney money.That is their long term aim.

The other more risky way is to bring on another world war like WW1 WW2 Vietnam, Korea etc and finance both sides of the conflict.China however is the thorn in their side having so many Govt banks creating infrastucture debt free.This is why China can grow at 10-12% while the West is lucky to get 3%.The more growth we have, the more debt we incur.Hence we cannot escape the boom and bust cycle.

The Global World Reserve banks create nothing of tangible worth and own almost everything.They via the share market scams,trade in human misery,by keeping poor countries enslaved in their debt trap.

The minute that you show the slightest evidence of understanding a single sentence that you write, I'll start to take you seriously Arjay.

But right now, you're just stringing words together without any idea what they signify, and make wild assertions that have no basis in reality whatsoever.

>>So by making the Yuan the world's reserve currency,they will have to float it,thus it will be valued upwards.<<

Does this mean that it is more, or less likely to happen? No-one can force them to float, after all.

Incidentally, there aren't enough expatriated Yuan available yet. That will take another decade or so, at minimum, even if they started now.

>>The intent of these Global Banksters,is too get a foot hold in the Govt Banking system of China<<

Even if we assume that there are "Global Banksters" with this objective, why would the Chinese let them? What could possibly be in it for them?

>>China however is the thorn in their side having so many Govt banks creating infrastucture debt free<<

Debt-free, Arjay?

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/chinese-bank-lending-inflation-grow-in-january-2010-02-10

"The credit boom helped support gains in the housing market, with prices across the nation's 70 largest cites rising 9.5% in January from a year earlier, accelerating from a 7.8% rise in December"

Are you sure?

http://ezinearticles.com/?Bank-of-China-Looking-to-Boost-Supplementary-Capital&id=6072700

"After a record high credit growth in 2008 and 2009, Chinese banks sold convertible bonds and stocks, and gathered $72 billion through it in 2010"

>>This is why China can grow at 10-12% while the West is lucky to get 3%<<

Yes, it is, but it has nothing to do with "Govt banks creating infrastucture debt free"

Precisely the opposite, in fact.

Is the light starting to come on, yet?

If you paid attention Pericles I said either as a tax credit or debt free infrastructure.The Govt banks of China to create money in their computers and loan it out like the Federal Reserve but their Govt is not in debt to foreign banks like we are.30% of our mortage money comes from foreign banks like the Fed Res.We are borrowing OS to buy our own land.

The Commonwealth and 4 State banks used to be govt owned.They created a fair % of our money as infrastructure debt free and also as a tax credit, meaning the profits made by these banks reduced our taxes.Now we are taxed to pay for interest and principal to private banks who just create most of it in their computers or borrow form OS banks.

Private banks should not be allowed to own our increases in GDP by creating the money to equal it and then profit again in charging interest.The whole of our society contributes to GDP and thus the Govt is the fair way to share it.

i seek no return to gold or silver backed currency
but do seek to sepperate the creation of money credit..
from the money lenders...how this is best done is by returning the mint to govt control

govt then lends to the fed via treasury
[who holds the asets/securities..govt has monetised]

coins return to true tradtional[constituted]..values
one cent equating to a on paper dollar[as that is a fair value]
that previously in cents..is rounded up to the nearest dollar..

[we lost the value of the copper in a cent long ago
[when the copper value was 5 cents..to make a one cent coin]

this was previous to
*your quoted gold oz value

QUOTE""Let's imagine that in return for a day's work at the call-centre back in 2001,..they gave you 10 OZ...Would you expect them to give you the same wage..(10 OZ)..today? Given the price of the underlying metal,you'd be lucky to get 2 OZ.""

your as usual twisting what im trying to say to your posting adgenda

the oz you quoted previously
""You have a 1/10th oz...gold coin,.."worth" US$25.66,
on this day exactly ten years ago.

http://www.usagold.com/reference/prices/history.html

Today it is "worth" US$146.90""

THAT IS A MEASURE of just how much..'value'
has been styolen from the workers wage rates
[its much worse over time..
thus the fairity..of returning to true values..
via a return to GOVT/controled [issued]..coin}

the cent coins holding a perpetual fixed value
of one cent=one paper[fiat dollar]...globally

govt pays only in coin
thus limits its own issue by supply [and REAL assets
true securities..real things not paper promises]
[a banker would get paper credit by govt holding the mortgauge papers]

the coin tender would pay for all govt expenditure
essentially a govt bailout would cost a trillion cents
not a trillion dollars..[lent from the ones getting a lol bailout]

that current system is simply speaking fraud..
with tax opayers bailout criminals..and its failing big time

Is that..!
starting to
become clearer?

as this conversation would be futile without offering solutions
i would add that the new cupra[copper/nickle coin based currency..would be under control of the senet

must origonate in the senet
just as currently laws muast NOT origonate in the senet
[its my idea of sepperation of powers[a minour constitution change could tremedy and make lawfull the change to real values based currency..[if not globally we could go it alone]

just in time to bailout the big final meltdown
[the current real value of the nickle coins
is their cupra nickle face price...which at the current rate would see the value of face be over the value of melt for 30 to 40 years..

[ie going by the values of your 0z egsample
..although why you confound the nanming of an egsample imaginary
coin with an oz{weight value]..stil sounds like your trying to deliberatly confound the topic]

""Your idea that "real coin money"
is somehow less vulnerable to fluctuation is,quite simply,wrong.""

of course your right[the value of its metal has a market value
as it should have,...it was gold and silver value that saw that system stripped of its metalic values

just as it has been deliberatly suppressed*
in real value
by issuing 3 times more paper promises..*for gold
trading..than we ever*had..in real glold

""You also need to understand the sheer volume of metal needed to provide every Australian with "real coin money".

yes thus the urgency
to make it have its REAL values recogniised
[befiore they disappear the whole concept of coins from our children

[ie to explain it THEN to THEIR children
we would need them to first know..what the heck a coin is]

ITS NOW OR NEVER..

just as now
im needing to explain tally sticks..to tall poppies
or gold bonds..to one holding his own bonds
or theft of our collective gold etc..

to one who is trying to justify
its being just fine and dandy

""Contemplate that for a moment.""

""Then tell yourself..
what would happen to..""

cointinues..

""the price of the raw material,..if you turned every transaction into one that had to be backed by "real money""

well mate copper one cent goins got stolen

was that true value that caused that
or the wrong face value.

thing is mate we got conned
by those seking to steal our copper
[after stealing the silver and gold the SAME WAY}

thing is NOW they are after our NICKLE
its return COIN to true value..OR let them steal THAT too

they allready control values..
by setting the rate of inflation

simple thing is we got nothing [NO CONTROL]..over them at all

they can EVEN gop bust..and steal our bailout
getting bonus..as we AAA$$ume their debt liabilities

i still cant get over how your defending their acts
with petty excuses

""And a word about "discounts".""
isnyt it time the little guy got a disxcount
IN HIS FAVOUR..now every POOR working slob..can get an instant WIN-fall..his goin jar can pay offa big chuink of his mortgauge/credit card or other bankers ABUSES

all of a sudden shop kepers fine people in their shops
spending their cents..the roaring twenties returns
[it was bankers that killed it]..by stealing our gold/
then our silver,..then our copper

the FAIR value of a silver coin
must be its VALUE in silver

the fair value of a gold coin
MUST BE ITS WEIGHT in gold

WE LIVE IN OZ
au
the symbol for gold

if not here then where?

>>discounting means someone gets the short end
of the tally stick..[its the people getting the short end here]<<

""In this context,
a discount simply represents risk,..and/or time.":"

ITS TIME*
we gave those who built and payed for everything
[ie the workers]..a bonus back...our word is our bond

but we got bound by trickery word bonds

""In the case of a Bond,it is mostly the estimation
of value forgone,..from that point in time,..*to the Bond's maturity.""

so THE PEOPLES BOUND/BOND
has matured..!*!*!*!*!

bankers can help a$set you freeeee

guess what folks
your pennies are comming back
ten cents+ten penies

100 pennies+one HUN..[hundred]dollar's

its a maturity of value
yiour trust in bankers paid off

lets face it the rich will soon
get our penies back into THEIR vaults

and what yoiu said
wil be truth
inlue of a refutable[debaitable lie]

""No-one is robbing anyone with discounts.""

LOL
haaaa
haaa

please prove this deciete?

""They are a perfectly simple mechanism
to satisfy buyer and seller,
lol..that they are each getting a good deal."

mate us bailing out bankers
us globally asuming ODIOUS DEBT
wrought by capitalists and bankers

facilitated by govt unions big busness media and lobby
designed to strip and devalue our assets
homes
pensions
income/wages...savings

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH
ya think the current systenm is working?
yes it is for some

yes it is working...for now

but too soon..it all goes pear shaped
by then the ones holding the assets..will make your kids kids slaves

and then
it will be too late

then
the poor must eat the rich

GLOBALLY

revalue their coin
while you can

the current plan is to print their way into more debt
held by govts..not those spending at todays values

then print more paper..to devalue the dollar values
it means the people[consumers..getting the hardship
while the money changers get their fees/bonus..and bailouts

thing is mate..its going*bad..real fast
in china..there are millions of EMPTY investment homes
whole cities..of empty homes..

[if you think china
isnt going to have its bust soon..
mate your in lala land]..its numbers
are even more based in fiction..than ours

the usa housing/bust was nothing
compared to the upcomming china/bust

there is a need to head-off
those with infinite greed
those who think of everything..only by the value..of its parts

those in power know/no-end..to the abuses
they are willing to put on others..
just to avoid..a slight discount*..to themselves

a discount is theft
someone lied

someone colluded a lie
they should be in jail

sadly they will be dead..when it becomes clear
just how bad..they have failed...and what they
were willing*..to let others suffer

we are all..in this*together..

but somehow the poor
allways bailout the rich
its the savers who lose their savings..when the bank fails

the bankers allways seem to know
one minute before the market..finds out

you will know better
once you lose all your savings

but then you will be..too angry for revenge
rather than..an in time..*FAIR..fix..now

our coin-age
doesnt reflect,its real values
just like our coppers..were stolen..
so too the same/thieves think to steal it all..soon

if only you used your word-skills..to help things
not defend the indefensable

coins dont have any..*monetary exchange values
its with the paper-notes/credit and other finantial instruments..the system..does its vile..

returning the true/values..*into coin
allows for a sepperation..[plan b]

the capitalists..keep their current system
and..the coin-age..is govt's/peoples system

nothing basiclly need change
except govt..and the poor
use coin

captialists return..*the coin to the bank
who return it..to govt..as their tax payment
*tithe*..[pay the rent]

back into the system..that underpins/underwrites
assuages..their fiat system

OUG China has real productivity to back up its'money supply.They will have a downturn when the US/Europe stops buying as much but they have the pop to consume their products and have a Govt owned banking system that doesn't screw them.

Sorry Arjay, I must have missed something.

>>If you paid attention Pericles I said either as a tax credit or debt free infrastructure<<

I simply read what you wrote:

>>China however is the thorn in their side having so many Govt banks creating infrastucture debt free.<<

I couldn't find the words "tax credit" anywhere. Are you sure that you didn't dream it?

>>The Govt banks of China to create money in their computers and loan it out like the Federal Reserve<<

At least we have straightened that out.

>>30% of our mortage money comes from foreign banks like the Fed Res.We are borrowing OS to buy our own land.<<

Perhaps you could explain why that is a bad thing? If the US$ tanks, surely that would mean we have less to repay?

I remain unconvinced that you have the slightest understanding of what you write.

And pretty much the same goes for you, I'm afraid one under god.

>>how this is best done is by returning the mint to govt control<<

Ummmm. It already is.

http://www.ramint.gov.au/

Look carefully at the top left-hand side of the page.

The rest of your posts show the same lack of grasp of the topic.

Pericles you seem to have comprehension problem.We do not need to borrow 30% of our mortage money from banks who just create it out of thin air.

Unlike China,we borrow from private banks the money to equal our increases GDP.The productivity of all Australians under this system gets expressed as debt.Eventually as has happened in the USA the total amount of money in the economy is equal to the debt owed to private banks.

Under a fair system,private banks will only be allowed to loan out money they actually have and not conjure it in cyber space.

Money does not equal wealth.It is the knowledge and skills of a pop that is wealth.When private banks pervert our system by creating too much and as now restricting supply,they crush the real economy.

The US Fed should be privatised and the debt created by their manufacture of counterfeit money be liquidated.It was never their money in the first place since that money represented the productivity of the US people.

You jest of course, Arjay.

>>Pericles you seem to have comprehension problem<<

From someone who demonstrates zero understanding of finance, that's pretty rich.

>>We do not need to borrow 30% of our mortage money from banks who just create it out of thin air.<<

For the gazillionth time, banks do not create money out of thin air. That's just a slogan that you picked up while doodling around with conspiracy web sites.

>>Unlike China,we borrow from private banks the money to equal our increases GDP.The productivity of all Australians under this system gets expressed as debt.Eventually as has happened in the USA the total amount of money in the economy is equal to the debt owed to private banks.<<

None of that makes any sense. You do realize that, don't you?

>>Under a fair system,private banks will only be allowed to loan out money they actually have and not conjure it in cyber space.<<

We've had the cyberspace discussion - money is not "conjured" from anywhere. But why should banks be restricted to money they actually "have" - I assume by that you mean money they have taken in deposits?

What is the difference between money they have on deposit, which they are obliged to give back under certain defined circumstances, and money they have borrowed (even from overseas - shock, horror!), which they are obliged to give back under certain defined circumstances?

There is no difference. Certainly not to the end-borrower - it's all just money.

In fact, from the Bank's point of view, borrowing 90-day money is predictable, while on-call deposits are not.

Now you are contracicting yourself:

>>When private banks pervert our system by creating too much and as now restricting supply,they crush the real economy.<<

Supply would be massively more "restricted" if they operated under Arjay-rules, and only lent what's on deposit.

If you could get your head around just that simple fact, you'd be on your way to a sound education.

china's productivity is a joke
if govt says buld more..more is built
[thus the enmpty houses/flats units etc]

didnt you watch the previous links
[i cant be botherd re finding them for you]
im too bust looking forward to keep going back

anyhow
here is more
http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2011/04/05/libya-oil-banks-water-the-united-nations-and-americas-holy-crusade/
http://snardfarker.ning.com/video/unreserve-dollar-us-thinkers
http://snardfarker.ning.com/xn/detail/2649739:Video:357076?xg_source=activity
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=14533

its a pity the 'note printing branch'
dont hold the same govt owned implication
http://www.noteprinting.com/

[link taken from 'mint faq page']

thjing is arjay said controled
[and govt logo dont mean govt control]

but lack of even govt logo..
on the notes should speak volumes

from my link

'About NPA
Note Printing Australia (NPA) is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Reserve Bank of Australia and was corporatised in July 1998.

NPA has its origins in an organisation that was first established in 1913 to print banknotes for Australia. After printing paper banknotes for Australia for 75 years,..""

anyhow

its about who controls
and ONLY the fed controls*
the issue of paper fiat

[ok plaSTIC]
i remain convinced your deliberatly
trying to confound the issue

[but enjoy your input]

banks couldnt 'only' lend money
they got in the bank
[because so much 'held'..by bankers is built upon leverage]
fractional reserves..and credit..or implied/not true values]

it truelly is a convoluted mess
http://whatreallyhappened.com/[video:http://youtu.be/FW0LJEofHiA]
[that globally..has not ever been audited by govt or outside auditers...[and true details..made available..to the public]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2vQBij7JJY&feature=youtu.be

the 'gold held at fort knoz
is still only by visual
not audited evidences
or actual proof of quality..and quantity
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13022524
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2011/04/10/business/business-us-iceland-referendum.html?_r=1&ref=global-home
http://members.beforeitsnews.com/story/549/345/YES_Icelands_Got_the_Balls_No_One_Else_in_Europe_of_America_Has_..._its_still_a_bailout_and_the_people_of_Iceland_are_having_none_of_it..html

http://www.bushstole04.com/Libya/fed_libya.htm
http://redactednews.blogspot.com/2011/04/pentagons-trillion-dollar-spending.html

http://snardfarker.ning.com/video/shoot-em-up-the-danger-of

an oldie
but a goody
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90ELleCQvew

China has a lot of inefficiencies but they are ahead of us because they have 80% of their new money for growth created by the Govt.10% of their loans default.There is much corruption etc but their cheap labour and debt free growth money puts them way ahead of us.

We are in a far more precarious situation than China.We virtually have no manufacturing and our Govts and doing their best to destroy farming.Perhaps the gods have made them all insane.

The GFC is far from over and I predicted this collapse 2 yrs ago.

pericules quote.."'What is the difference between money they have on deposit, which they are obliged to give back under certain defined circumstances,""'

i love the pot kettle stuff
'obliged to give back''...lol
unless the bank goes bust

[and then they arnt even ''obliged to give back their BONUS'
presumably given them for good work..only as recently as the last bonus period
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/it_on_our_tWJLw3C710wXwE4kSDqeiJ

the other joke is we need to keep their experteaze
..when their experteaze sent the bank bust

most of em would do the job without the bonus
http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2011/04/financial_markets_0?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/toobigtofail

[how absurd is the reserve banker of australia getting over a million in basic 'wage'[the highest public servant pay?]

res bank isnt govt owned
res bank is a bankers colluded/controled franchise

[they might allow the pennies[mint]
to remain under some form of govt [quasi govt lable]..
but the REAL big money[notes]..they own free and clear

but back to your quote

""and money they have borrowed (even from overseas/shock, horror!), which they are obliged to give back under certain defined circumstances?"""

yes PAY back...in the same coin that was lent
ie if the yen it was borrowed in..rises..you pay MUST PAY heaps more
or if the yanki dollar falls big time..repay much less

but the values of both are manipulated big time

lol..''obliged to give-back..
under certain defined circum-stances""

implies some have no 'obligation'..to 'pay it back'
and of course for some its a colusional possability..
but for the rest of us it aint
http://revolutionarypolitics.com/?p=5264

just as the values..can rise and fall..to injure the peons[the people]..or advantage various coplluding bankers..holding the fixed [in other currencies] debt..in the falling values currencies..
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/04/imf-urges-us-to-address-debt-now.html
its a clever game
no one looses...lol

unless its your argentianian germanic
or nigerian..money values being stolen
http://dailybail.com/home/matt-taibbi-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-on-the-backs-of-the-middle.html

and yet the coin melt values...of the metal in the coin
still hold[should hold]..the true value...of the metal of the coin

http://myamazingfact.blogspot.com/2011/04/bureaucrats-ivil-servants-and-their.html

[in a just world
not run by vile money changers
http://www.crikey.com.au/2011/03/07/us-deficit-is-unsustainable-watch-out-for-the-ramifications/

charging vairiable ursury to the help rich...[with lower intrest
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2011/04/trumps.html

and kill the poor with higher intrerst

ie the micro lending to the poor
note how many are paying hundreds of % intrst
on patheticly small ammounts of money...with huge threats and repayment presures

and the big boys
they just put their debt in a us dollar..thats going to collapse
and repay it in tinme..with pennies on the dollar[in true values]

see the joke
""There is no difference.""

lol]

"Certainly not to the end-borrower""
big end of town borrower
TO THEM its their advantage lever..if they learn how to use it
but to the poor..its a tool of oppression..
http://www.revoltoftheplebs.com/categories/news-analysis/looting-social-security-to-wage-war/

[if your 'withus' you can get cheap credit..
if you cant we will lend you at huge intrest
and make you even more poor
http://dailybail.com/home/iceland-does-it-again-icesave-repayment-scheme-rejected.html

"it's all just money.""
http://www.examiner.com/nonpartisan-in-national/why-we-the-people-will-win-the-new-american-revolution-against-us-fascism
lol

its a tool of oppression
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig11/visalli4.1.1.html
http://www.revoltoftheplebs.com/categories/occupied-palestine/terrorist-state-of-israel-to-get-205-million-from-us-taxpayer-to-wage-war-on-palestine/
some get it
http://www.revoltoftheplebs.com/categories/news-analysis/financing-of-illegal-wars-on-humanity/
many wont
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/04/surging-food-prices-fuel-ethanol.html

its so easy to defend the have's
and squat on..the have nots
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/china-lashes-out-us-hypocrisy-blasts-us-human-rights-double-standard-pursuing-world-hegemony

How will you ever learn anything, if you never question anything, Arjay?

>>China has a lot of inefficiencies but they are ahead of us because they have 80% of their new money for growth created by the Govt.<<

And this is good, because...?

From your numerous previous posts on the subject, I thought that you were dead against the idea of governments "creating new money". Are you making an exception for China? If so, why?

And how come you believe that their government creating "80% of their new money for growth" puts them "ahead of us"?

But wait! What's this?

>>There is much corruption etc but their cheap labour and debt free growth money puts them way ahead of us.<<

I thought we had agreed that the growth money was the product of mammoth bond issues?

http://ezinearticles.com/?Bank-of-China-Looking-to-Boost-Supplementary-Capital&id=6072700

"After a record high credit growth in 2008 and 2009, Chinese banks sold convertible bonds and stocks, and gathered $72 billion through it in 2010"

Do you understand what selling convertible bonds and stocks means, Arjay? That is incurring debt, which will need to be repaid. And the high credit growth is that of their citizenry, also borrowing money. How is this different from any other developed country?

>>The GFC is far from over and I predicted this collapse 2 yrs ago.<<

Which particular collapse is that, Arjay? You predict so many of them, and so often.

Like a stopped clock that tells the correct time twice a day, you are bound to be right occasionally.

And I apologize, one under god, I couldn't find anything in your posts that was clear enough to present an argument for anything factual. So I'll just step back and watch you mud-wrestle with your global financial fantasies. If you ever find the need for any of it to be explained to you in simple terms, just let me know.

ok pericules
its just typical;

you cant justify or rebut the previous points
so play the come to me with a point i can rebut

ok i will play your game
[make another point]

you can explain the logic/justification

behind
..micro lending
*high intrest rates

from a search
http://www.google.com/search?q=micro+lending+egsorbitant+intrst+rates

to quote

""MFIs lend money at exorbitant interest rates
which range from 20 percent to 40 percent""

others say an average arround 27%

yet you and i..can lend arround 7%

many bankers currently lending arround 2%
govt bonds up to 8%

its generally agreed micro lending is good

http://debates.juggle.com/is-micro-lending-a-viable-method-for-helping-stimulating-third-world-economies

but of course the poor
arnt on the net to say its not

NOTE
they dont default
as high as ordenary western loans
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=micro+lending+default+rate&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=

""Default rates on MFI loans run about 4%,""

so arnt as big a default risk

admin costs are less..[no business premise rentals]
usually its just a field person collecting the payments

there is a higher missed payment rate
''delinquency rate under 16%''

[but with weekly REPAYMENT..
and often mounthly..*incomming payments for work done

the fact these dont end up in default..
is a statisical
more than practical reality..

[yet they then cop punitive penalties]
absurd intrest rates and odious terms

AND STILL DONT DEFAULT

and the loans are far smaller..[thus smaller risk]

so here is an easy simple question

is it fair for the rich capitalists
to proffiteer from the poor

shouldnt intrest rates be FAR LOWER?

shouldnt govt be lending to its own poor
instead of you capitalists exploiting them

they only need a loan
not the ripp off BURDENS
they currently..*need to endure

just so fat cats rats can get fatter

go on
justify..'it'

you need their URSURY/money
in your pension funds because....?

bankers need the ursury for...?

I suppose I asked for it, one under god, when I suggested "If you ever find the need for any of it to be explained to you in simple terms, just let me know."

I had actually meant Finance 101, which you find horribly difficult to come to terms with, not some perceived injustice you picked up from a random web site.

But ok, let's have a look at it.

>>you can explain the logic/justification
behind
..micro lending
*high intrest rates<<

The first problem is your source. It might not be entirely accurate. For example, the first one I looked at said...

"Micro finance institutions have replaced the traditional money lenders"

This is far from being the case.

The Economist pointed out in November that in Andhra Pradesh, the area of India where most microfinance (MFI) is used...

"Whereas 82% of households have borrowed from informal sources, mainly village moneylenders and relatives or neighbours, only 11% have an MFI loan. On average, borrowers also owe over four times as much to informal lenders, which charge far higher rates, than they do to MFIs.

http://www.economist.com/node/17522350

Here are a couple more Economist articles on the topic. They aren't from a conspiracy site, I'm afraid, so might not meet your standards of truthiness, but they are worth a look.

This one is about the founding father of microcredit, Muhammad Yunus:

http://www.economist.com/node/17857429?story_id=17857429

And one about the human dimension

http://www.economist.com/node/17675848?story_id=17675848

So in answer to your question, the main reason that MFIs might charge high interest, is because... they can.

They are outside mainstream banking, and largely unregulated, so can pretty much do as they please.

Just a word about your logic, while I'm here:

>>admin costs are less..[no business premise rentals]
usually its just a field person collecting the payments<<

Does it occur to you how far these "field people" might have to travel, just to collect a few Rupees?

Incidentally, I know of a couple of non-rip-off MFIs that are run by a local church, that have a very high success rate in kick-starting local micro-economies. The funds come from the Sunday collection plate.

oh..so high intrest is justifyable
because they are cheaper than criminals ripping the poor off

lol..IS THAT..a good enough reason..
to further exploit the poor?

as you said
""the main reason that MFIs
might charge high interest,
is because...they can.""

how does that sit with you?
this is the fruit of capitalism
if it works there..soon it will work here too

i guess it explains these links
http://dailybail.com/home/national-debt-gets-too-big-for-debt-clock.html
http://weeklyintercept.blogspot.com/2011/04/us-lacks-credibility-on-debt-says-imf.html
http://dailybail.com/home/every-6-months-another-trillion-in-debt.html

but oh wise one..tell me does this theory still work
when we are all poor...[2 percent now own 95%]
we cant afford the usa capitaklists cures
even they are going broke

please rebut this...!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq8xic17IPQ&feature=channel_video_title

WAS the logan-act violated by meeting with george sorras?
http://lonestarwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/04/logan-act-violated-meeting-with-george.html

is this sustainable
http://www.mybudget360.com/banks-gone-wild-jp-morgan-ceo-makes-843-times-median-household-income/

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/investment-ideas/streetwise/alphas-dark-orders-draw-industrys-ire/article1981548/

considering the possability of voter fraud..by this mob
and the fact of micro lending..[56 million to the poor
could have returned]..does this seem suss to you?
http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2011/04/diebold_to_build_100_million_w.html

are you one of these?
http://lonestarwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/04/to-all-trolls-working-for-george-soros.html

ps tried to go here
http://www.facebook.com/KeiserReport

but didnt log in
and somehow a lot of my megabites got chewed up
not taking me to the site..

just holding me on the entry page
indicate facebook is colluding with the vile money changers..to suppress those seeking info..of copurse not..you can trust those whom love money/power...charging as much as the market can bear

till the stone got no more blood

are..*WE ARE DEALING WITH
phycopathic narcisistic..[capitalists]
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/04/genetics-of-tyranny-psychopathology.html

The ratio of parasites to host must be kept quite small, or the entire host population might be wiped out leaving the parasites unable to survive.

In the past, when the drain became too great, the host population has attempted to exterminate the parasite, hence the repeated cycle of bloody revolutions throughout history.

Evidently, the effort at eliminating the parasitic infestation has never been fully successful.

Threatened with extinction, the psychopath displays great skill at hiding in plain sight. A psycho-camouflage of sorts is employed, allowing the parasite to mimic a sense of sorrow, dismay or other feelings not actually present in the psychopathic character.

Some always manage to survive by temporarily blending with the host population.

The Disease
Blames The Afflicted

The most ironic aspect of this condition is that these life-draining parasites, riding on the body of humanity like great, bloated ticks, are the first to scream bloody murder should anyone among the host population require aid in a time of distress.

They express indignation and outrage at any action, program or institution that can be seen as benefitting the general welfare. Such people, they insist, are freeloaders and moochers and such programs a drain on society.

The hypocrisy is breathtaking.

Part of the skill-set I suppose.

Prognosis?

I fear we are now approaching that point where the parasite is perilously close to overwhelming the host. I only say approaching, since I think it will take a little time yet to cross that Rubicon. I have no doubt we will if things continue on their present course. That could mean destruction for all, including the parasite.


Governments of the world, monolithic multi-national corporations, and the international banking cartel are overrun with psychopaths in the highest positions of power.

Their parasitic insatiability threatens to consume our species

No, that's not what I said, one under god.

>>oh..so high intrest is justifyable
because they are cheaper than criminals ripping the poor off<<

You are quite exasperating sometimes, you know. I was responding to the logic part of your question - how high interest rates come about - not the justification of it.

I simply pointed out two things. First, that the MFIs commanded a lower interest rate than the informal system. Second, that in comparison with all other forms of lending, it is a relatively small segment of the market.

One other point that may have escaped your notice is that your report of interest rates of "20% to 40%" comes with no evidence. It is an assertion, by someone external to the system, without corroboration. It doesn't even suggest that this is the norm - its vagueness indicates that exceptions exist, that's all. Which I expect there are.

But the only logical conclusion that you could come to, given your attitude, is that all debt is evil, and no-one should ever borrow money. How does this compare to the reality, which is that poor people in India clearly want to borrow money in order to create something that will alleviate their poverty.

The idea of the MFI is that the purpose of the microloan should be clearly understood, and the money directed to a specific project - some are as simple as digging a well. This has actually resulted in some extremely successful outcomes in many small villages.

But - as inevitably happens - these success stories are far less interesting to people like yourself than the failures. Which you seem to want to use as evidence of... what? The failure of the global banking system?

A bit of a stretch, isn't it?

As for your gloom concerning global debt, the IMF is 100% in your corner.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/dc1aadea-652e-11e0-b150-00144feab49a.html#axzz1JLxgLv3z

Only they don't get quite as hysterical about it as your sources.

I wonder why.

some are with us
others rally against us

the spin is in who defends the indefensable
http://www.picassodreams.com/picasso_dreams/2011/04/cointelpro-techniques-for-dilution-misdirection-and-control-of-an-internet-forum.html

Apathetic Acceptance of Austerity Measures
Will Enslave Us All
By: J.T. Waldron
http://weeklyintercept.blogspot.com/2011/04/apathetic-acceptance-of-austerity.html
Whilst looking up the word ‘austerity’ in a few online dictionaries I came across those listed below which seemed to fit in with our current economic climate

and the use of the word frequently in relation to government comments on the need for such ‘austerity’ in our current turbulent economic times.

The first definition which caught my eye,
in no particular order of importance, was ‘strict economy’

That seemed like a good place to start as it’s becoming obvious that strict measures are indeed being taken with the direction of the economy although it still seems to be on a very much downward spiral.

Wikipedia will of course give us the expected propagandist line but at the same time the use of the word ‘creditors’ gives us a clue as to why ‘austerity’ is being imposed on us all.

how?
http://weeklyintercept.blogspot.com/2011/04/us-dollar-back-to-pre-crisis-low.html

plan b
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/04/emergence-of-vaccine-induced-diseases.html

plan c
http://www.google.com/search?q=FBI+releases+Roswell+memo&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

That the CIA planned to use a fake space alien invasion to try to trick the population of Earth into a global dictatorship ("for their own good" of course) is well known.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/ufo/8026971/Aliens-have-deactivated-British-and-US-nuclear-missiles-say-US-military-pilots.html

http://www.homevideos.com/outerlimits/ol3.htm

As for Roswell, the United States was already on the habit of using UFOs and flying saucers as a screen for classified projects. What crashed at Roswell was a large array of balloons carrying large panels of aluminum foil and an early form of Mylar.

It was part of Project MOGUL, and while superficially a weather balloon, its real purpose was to gather particles in the upper atmosphere to detect and analyze Soviet Nuclear testing.

here is more spin
explaining how..of increase in radiation in water
http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2011/04/12/feds-blame-cancer-patient-urine-radioactive-iodine-drinking-water-16545/

how long will the excuses last pericules
how can you trust your masters

ps im not saying i believe it
so dont bother riduculing

explain previous questions
or this one

Of course, setting aside that CNBC is owned by General Electric, which means Cramer works for the company that designed those exploding reactors,

Jim Cramer is the guy who told us all
that Bear Sterns was fine

just 1 week before it collapsed.

Jim Cramer loyally serves his GE masters and destroys what little remains of NBC/MSNBC/CNBC's credibility.

http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2011/03/30/cesium-fallout-fukushima-rivals-chernobyl-12442/

brown admits he as wrong
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110411/wl_uk_afp/britainpoliticsbankingbrown

ethics classes anyone?
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2011/04/prof-suspended.html
and the fruit
http://www.howtovanish.com/2011/04/liberty-dollar-ii-prosecutor-anne-tompkins-made-false-statement-of-law/

http://redactednews.blogspot.com/2011/04/president-obama-get-real-on-911-and.html

ok finally got to the keiser reports facebook page
http://www.facebook.com/KeiserReport

its worth looking at a few vidios
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2FV3NdUU1wWa4&h=df911

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2FIDdODlFVIfw&h=df911

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D1zMv4Offm_8&h=df911

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DKLdwzcA9ZdM&h=df911

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dc7jZB5mOSFk&h=df911

im reminded of this
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Operation-Credit-Card-Freedom-Day/157912967598699
Operation Credit Card Freedom Day GIABO without leaving your home. Join our call to stop paying your Visa and Mastercard payments.

Pay them only $19.13 until the Banksters go to jail and until Congress takes a hard look at The Fed Act of 1913. http://www.youtube.com/banksterslayer/

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D0yyVGdC7RoY&h=df911

anyhow
thats all folks
its about laughing at them
who think change can allways be prevented

from happening
they may be right
but also they just might

be wrong

anyhow

im over it

ok a quote
from one of the links hereunder
http://revolutionarypolitics.com/?p=5311

""Nothing is cheap in today’s investment world. Because of the trillions of currency units that governments all over the world have created – and are continuing to create – financial assets are grossly overpriced.

Stocks, bonds, property, commodities and cash are no bargains. Meanwhile, real wages are slipping rapidly among those who are working, and a large portion of the population is unemployed or underemployed.""

ok its probable trying to sell us on buying gold or silver[or food]
much of the bailout money has gone on buying commodities..or simple capitalisation and takeovers..not kick starting the economy

ANYHOW
the only people jesus personally attacked
was chasing the money changers from the temple

if we ever needed to know why
we need to know the truth

the truth is bankers took over the worlds feds
control the rate of inflation and deflation globally
control the exchange rates..control the issue and creation[printing] of notes..control the computers that hold your credit

they trade bonds..by tading only the virtual bonds/virtual shares
a sub branch of the imf..actually holds most of the shares

this enables instant sharetrading..[in the old days you used to have to send recieve an actual share..to complete a transaction]

bonds
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42533114/ns/business-eye_on_the_economy/

shares have voting rights
the bonds you can buy now ..are non voting [laregly]
they dont even actually need limit the ammount of bonds traded ..because they now can do the same as when they traded gold on paper..if everyone kept the shares they think they now hold..all couldnt be deliverd...[its a huge bubble]
http://www.cnbc.com/id/42551209
most share trades never actually go therough[its all manipulated]
but dont believe me..check out the facts for yourself
http://dailybail.com/home/franklin-raines-our-assets-are-so-riskless-that-it-doesnt-ma.html
http://kevboyle.blogspot.com/2011/04/governor-boe-democratic-system-is-fraud.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7G0a_ZICvU
http://www.revoltoftheplebs.com/categories/rogues-gallery/soros-new-world-order-conference-bretton-woods-2-0/

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173#
http://dailybail.com/home/chris-whalen-largest-banks-hiding-1-trillion-in-bad-loans.html
http://dailybail.com/home/chris-whalen-with-dylan-ratigan-which-banks-how-much-surpris.html
http://www.thelawthatneverwas.com/new/home.asp
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/SullivanVUSA.pdf
http://vidrebel.wordpress.com/2011/04/13/zionism-undone-part-ii/
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/04/global-warming-anti-scientific.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/04/13/earlyshow/main20053445.shtml
http://dailybail.com/home/paul-ryan-dodges-question-on-whether-gop-budget-will-end-cor.html
http://dailybail.com/home/ron-paul-on-the-almost-govt-shutdown-the-right-agreed-to-mor.html
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/04/healthcare-scoring-for-dead-pool-hedge.html
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/04/oc-judge-accused-of-fixing-friends-traffic-tickets.html
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=14568
http://americansjourney.blogspot.com/2011/04/bernie-sanders-robin-hood-in-reverse.html
http://www.youtube.com/user/NRKNOW#p/a/u/2/ylYClUdtxeo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnihfVw5MOc
http://mycatbirdseat.com/2011/04/move-over-aipac-american-israel-public-affairs-committee/
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-240925-flotilla-organizers-ask-europe-for-protection-from-israel.html?
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/04/12/catholic-group-says-children-raped-by-priests-were-participants-not-victims/

That's not all by a long way, one under god.

>>the truth is bankers took over the worlds feds
control the rate of inflation and deflation globally
control the exchange rates..control the issue and creation[printing] of notes..control the computers that hold your credit<<

They also organize package tours to Canada to club baby seals to death. Here's an excerpt from their travel brochure:

"In general, a sealer will use a hakapik or club if at all possible. That's because with these weapons, it's much easier to aim a blow directly at the seal pup's head. One swing from a hakapik will usually kill a pup right away. By law, you have to keep clubbing the seal in the forehead until you know for sure that it's dead. Sealers are supposed to "palpate" a pup's skull after they've clubbed it, to feel the caved-in bone beneath the skin and blubber. Or they can perform the "blink reflex" test, which consists of touching the seal's eyeball—if it blinks, you've got to club it again. (Few sealers actually perform these tests, though; some say they can feel the skull collapse as they make contact with their clubs.)"

Fun for all the family.

(Well, it has just as much relevance to the topic as your contributions)

Back on topic for a moment.

I haven't noticed the appearance yet of the Utah Gold Dollar.

What's holding it up?

If I were a secret international cabal of robber banksters, dedicated to the New World Order (Patent Pending) I'd be promoting the idea like crazy.

While at the same time buying as much gold as I can lay my grubby mitts on. And - according to Arjay - that would be many, many shedloads of the stuff, given the trillions of dollars I am supposed to have stashed away somewhere.

Then I'd hold the entire State of Utah to ransom. As well as any other dipstick State or country that thought bringing back the gold standard (or the silver standard, or the copper standard, or the tin standard for that matter) was a really neat idea.

As a practical issue, Arjay, if we went onto the gold (or fiat-gold) standard how would you handle the more than $100,000 of debt owed by each household in Australia? That is, how would you convert that into gold/fiat-gold, and how would you expect it to be repaid?

Just musing.

perryclues quote""What's holding it up?""

usually its a shortage of gold/silver
ghetting it from conex has become very difficult
they have minimum lots that must be redemed by a complicated system
[i posted a link about it about 3 mths ago]

the us mint has stopped minting silver dollars..
cause they are having trouble getting the silver
also the mob selling silver dollars got busted
the feds took their silver
[posted a link about both those issues earlier in the topic]

""If I were a secret international cabal of robber banksters, dedicated to the New World Order(Patent Pending)..I'd be promoting the idea like crazy.""

talk is cheap
no one is saying you are "the" cabal

[i did say you often sound like
your working for their adgenda though]

""Then I'd hold the entire State of Utah to ransom.""

thing is if they have the stuff
[and its not easy to get..china seems to be bying it up..trying to convets at least some of the yanki fiat into the AU/metal]

.."if we went onto the gold..(or fiat-gold)standard how would you handle the more than $100,000 of debt owed by each household in Australia?""

that ship has gone
there isnt enough real gold or silver..to bring that back ever

[but the cupra/nickle..standard
..for the coin-age..there is still time]

as i have said...copper coin is the perfect egsample of how inflation
eats up value..[recall the copper/penny..weighed near 9 and a half grams

and the one cent piec weighed near 2 and a half grams
just by taking them back to the bank
we lost 7 grams of copper

recall the usa cent is masde from iron[then copper plated]
someone is stealing the value

thats a fact

do the math
near 3 grams of pure grade nickle
is worth how much...

soon they steal even that

a sixpence contained 2.83 grams of sterling silver[925 fine]
[after ww2]..it contained the same weight but was alower quality of silver[500 fine]

tell me that isnt theft

""how would you convert that into gold/fiat-gold,""
coin gets a value that equals fiat dollar values
it returns coins *back to their constituted status/values

""and how would you expect it to be repaid?""
all coins belong to the people and govt
bankers can kep their notes system

nothing need change
except govt and the people return to true values

[coins will be indexed*.. to true inflation rate
relitive..in paper/plastic fiat banker/dollar values]

""Just musing""

ya me too
aint it all just too amusing...

tell your masters its fair
they get to keep their spioils
but cant de-spoil...it for the rest of us

On what basis do you expect "cupra/nickle" to behave any differently from gold, silver, copper, tin or whatever, one under god?

[but the cupra/nickle..standard
..for the coin-age..there is still time]

It is either i) a symbol, representing a certain value or ii) a value based on the weight of metal(s).

If i) then it is no different in any way, shape or form, to paper money. Both are simply abstract representations of a notional value, its exchange value determined by the market - i.e., how many of these will Coles accept in exchange for your basket of groceries.

If ii) then it is no different from any other traded commodity, whose exchange value is determined by the market for that particular metal or combination of metal, at any given time.

You seem to want it to be both. Which cannot be done.

>>nothing need change
except govt and the people return to true values<<

But which "true values" are you returning to?

A fixed exchange rate for "cupra/nickle", in the same fashion as the ill-fated gold standard, held hostage to the fluctuating value of the metal it was made from?

Or a "representative" exchange rate, based upon the market value of the fiat-dollar?

By the way, you cannot simply wish away the >$100,000 per household of debt.

>>that ship has gone
there isnt enough real gold or silver..to bring that back ever<<

So you are left with an impossible task. If I owe $100,000, and

>>...coin gets a value that equals fiat dollar values
it returns coins *back to their constituted status/values<<

How do I get the necessary coins, with which to pay the interest? More importantly, where do I get the coins to pay back the principal?

That's an awful lot of "cupra/nickle"

In fact, at today's prices, that would be around seven metric tonnes, assuming a standard 75:25 alloy.

Mind you, the same debt, in January 2009, would have needed twentytwo metric tonnes to discharge.

How does that work, one under god?

""On what basis do you expect "cupra/nickle" to behave any differently""

we have bailed out banks
by assuming debt collectivly/unfairly

[the bankers are allready..back on their self bonus cycle]
and globally the 'people'
govt is charged to serve and protect are being collectivly/selectivly..further impoverised

these people are the same ones big business needs to consume
[instead they will be paying[as will their children]..

for a long time to come...for the bankers crimes

by returning the coin..
back to its origonal silver values
is only being fair..

us monetising cheques[bond]..
that need to repay at intrest..
wont be good for anyone..in the long run...

the gain for the people will be but brief..

[people will soon spend it back to the big business people]

we saw ussr collapse..
and the people got a dividend..in shares
recently we saw capitalism collapse..
and all we saw was them pass on their debts..to govt..ie the people

capitalism is meant to let the market adjust
people are supposed to go bust and those risking the dollars left to share the pennies...the main theory of capitalism...[discount]...seling something at its TRUE market value

to use your own words
""No-one is robbing anyone with discounts...They are a perfectly simple mechanism..to satisfy buyer and seller,that they are each getting a good deal*.""

we havnt got a good deal
in bailing out bankers

even the quantive easing
[govts selling bonds...at intrest..
to give intrest free loans to the rich..
to..lol kickstart the economy..

which..is only allowing extra mkarket distortions
into resources...[the next bubble that may bust]

globally the unrest about food rising
25 to 35 percent..is allready causing unrest

the people need
a return back to true values..
[real change*..we can believe in]

if we need to bail
your masters out yet again..

or we
are expected to repay
the money..*they collectivly/individually..spent

http://dailybail.com/home/goldman-traders-tried-to-manipulate-derivatives-market-in-07.html

""It is either i)a symbol,..representing a certain value
or..ii) a value based on the weight of metal(s)."""

se how you deliberatly distort things
its not either or

both your either/or mention value
your deliberatly confounding coin..[intrinsic true value of its metal]
with paper[fiat]..a promise underpinned by its ability to convert into coin..or goods

two differnt things

""If i)..then it is no different in any way,
shape or form,to paper money.""
yes thats what bank NOTES /checks/bonds...are

""Both are simply abstract representations
of a notional value,its exchange value determined by the market""

you confuse the real economy
with the paper economy

those money trading
are trading in paper values*

the coin underpinng the intended value
has been confounded by trading paper for paper
NOT COIN FOR COIN..

all cupra coins..
of the same weight /same metal

MUST HAVE the same REAL values..

but layering on paper..upon paper..
has distorted the values of the paper..NOT THE COIN

ok only by deciete


""If ii)then it is no different
from any other traded commodity,
whose exchange value is determined by the market
for that particular metal or combination of metal,at any given time.""

again with your verbal trickery
as im saying..the metal in the coin
is the same regardless of the paper promising the coin
ITS TWIO DIFFERNT MARKETS

im saying its time we sepperated away from the bankers
delt in the coin only..for govt and the people

let the bankers play their games
but return the true values..[in silver]..back into nickle

this equates to a nickle coin who's face value
in cents..is based on one cent = one dollar

a dollar coin=100 dollars
$2 coiun=200 dollars

[that way we re monetise the money market]
so the babnkers got a whole new field..to exploit
and dont need the new tax of the carbon economy..[the only reason we are getting these new taxes]

""You seem to want it to be both.
Which cannot be done.""

says you
your not govt..that people
are going to kick out of office..and into jail

please explain to the listener about odious debt in law

read the entrails
http://dailybail.com/home/william-black-why-arent-the-honest-bankers-demanding-prosecu.html
http://dailybail.com/home/top-25-hedge-fund-managers-make-almost-1-billion-each-and-pa.html

In another dig at the dollar, the development banks of the five BRICS nations agreed in principle to establish mutual credit lines denominated in their local currencies, not the U.S. currency.

Webmaster's Commentary:
It's only a matter of time before the US dollar collapses completely, along with a morally and fiscally bankrupt US government.

http://wonkette.com/443115/banker-controlled-government-cant-figure-out-how-to-prosecute-bankers
http://www.goldshark.com/kaspars-comments/item/109-can-dollar-weakness-mean-equity-weakness?.html
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/04/budget-deal-turns-out-to-be-gigantic.html

BUT..deciding to allow the banks to confiscate Americans' homes to cover the losses from the forced buy-back all those fraudulent mortage-backed securities,that was EASY!
http://bit.ly/h1GXHk

BUT..
OCC Takes Enforcement Action
Against Eight Servicers for Unsafe and Unsound Foreclosure Practices

The Office of the Comptroller of the Currency today announced formal enforcement actions against eight national bank mortgage servicers and two third-party servicer providers for unsafe and unsound practices related to residential mortgage loan servicing and foreclosure processing.
http://www.occ.gov/news-issuances/news-releases/2011/nr-occ-2011-47.html

http://www.cnbc.com/id/42584668

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/will-silver-surge-following-nationalization-bolivias-silver-mines-president-evo-morales

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/04/14/shock-employment-figures-fewer-than-half-of-americans-have-jobs/

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/employment/2011-04-13-more-americans-leave-labor-force.htm

http://dailybail.com/home/goldman-traders-tried-to-manipulate-derivatives-market-in-07.html

http://dailybail.com/home/the-goldman-sachs-hearings-7-cantankerous-hours-securitized.html

At Bretton Woods INET
The interviews are excellent, especially Stiglitz and Johnson.
http://dailybail.com/home/gillian-tett-martin-wolf-interview-simon-johnson-joseph-stig.html

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=184237

http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=14569
http://dailybail.com/home/walter-jones-cut-this-cut-that-were-spending-8-billion-dolla.html

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/corrupted-5-shocking-examples-of-government-corruption-that-will-blow-your-mind

http://gonzalolira.blogspot.com/2011/04/burning-candle-at-both-ends-raising.html

Raising the Debt Ceiling,
and Extending QE-2 Indefinitely

This coming May 16, the U.S. Federal government debt ceiling will be breached; that is, the national credit card—currently topped at $14,294,000,000,000—will be maxed out.
http://lonestarwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/04/debt-cieling-must-not-be-raised.html

(Yeah, I know: It’s one thing to read “$14 trillion” and quite another to see the actual number, written out with all those zeroes.)

PS the debt clock cant record the true numbers
it run out of space for more zero's

the Federal Reserve’s policy colloquially known as Quantitative Easing-2 (QE-2)—whereby the Fed created $600,000,000,000 of new money, and used it to purchase Treasury bonds—will end.
http://dailybail.com/home/senator-no-debt-ceiling-hike-without-a-balanced-budget.html

The world's banks face a $3.6 trillion "wall of maturing debt" in the next two years and must compete with debt-laden governments to secure financing,the IMF warned on Wednesday.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/13/us-imf-stability-idUSTRE73C32G20110413?WT.tsrc=Social%20Media&WT.z_smid=twtr-reuters_%20com&WT.z_smid_dest=Twitter

http://profilesinevil.blogspot.com/2011/04/rothschilds-dark-lords-blood-bank_13.html
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=14574
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/04/destroy-globalists-one-fat-cat.html
one fat rat at a time

http://www.activistpost.com/2011/04/brics-demand-global-monetary-shake-up.html
refuting carbon/do-oxide
want the truth?
http://www.suite101.com/content/greenhouse-gas-theory-discredited-by-coolant-carbon-dioxide-a365870

http://www.activistpost.com/2011/04/world-bank-food-prices-have-entered.html

http://weeklyintercept.blogspot.com/2011/04/americas-military-expansion-funded-by.html

dont say you didnt know

Before your posts once again descended into incoherence, one under god, I think I understood the following:

>>your deliberatly confounding coin..[intrinsic true value of its metal] with paper[fiat]..a promise underpinned by its ability to convert into coin..or goods<<

I wasn't "confounding coin". In default of the "intrinsic true value of its metal", the only possible alternative is that the coin is representative of an agreed amount.

Like the $2 of value contained in the coin I have in my pocket, which bears no relationship to the weight - and therefore the intrinsic true value - of the metals it contains.

It is therefore absolutely no different from the old $2 notes that we had before. Both are worth the same, paper and coin.

>>you confuse the real economy
with the paper economy<<

There is only one economy.

>>all cupra coins..
of the same weight /same metal
MUST HAVE the same REAL values.<<

Which is absolutely true. They have the same as each other. One "cupra coin" will have the same real value as another "cupra coin"

But they will have different value on different days, depending on the price of the metals involved. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

You can read the price of copper, and the price of nickel, as well as I can. How come you have a mental blank when it comes to putting these two facts together and making a coin?

>>the metal in the coin
is the same regardless of the paper promising the coin
ITS TWIO DIFFERNT MARKETS<<

Nup. There's only one "market" in which money is used.

This is the really confusing part.

>>this equates to a nickle coin who's face value
in cents..is based on one cent = one dollar
a dollar coin=100 dollars
$2 coiun=200 dollars<<

So it cannot possibly be the case that the coin is valued on its metal content, can it.

A $200 cupro-nickel coin would weigh over 14 kilograms.

So it must rely on its face value.

Which is precisely the same as two hundred-dollar bills.

How would that change anything?

i will ignore your deliberated over simplifications

you recall no doudt the times of hyper inflation..in say germany/japan..after ww2..or argentina..or more recently zimbabwe

where it costs millions[even billions]..
of paper marks yen etc
just to buy a postage stamp

pre the hyper inflation...there was a coin
after the hyper inflation is the coin

the metalic values..of the coin have not changed

but the paper values have fallen..
in comparison to the other fiat currencies
[this is simple money market forces..[the paper e-con/omy]

but those in the know...get in early
convert their paper..into coin..[the real econo-my]

lets go a simple egsample
pre 66
a shiling had in it..5.67 grams of sterling silver

post 66 [at decimalisation]..it had 5.66 grams of nickle..
and was called a ten cent piece...

THEY STOLE OUR SILVER
gave us nickle

those in the know..
got the round 50 cent pieces
containing 31.28 grams composed of 80 percent silver/20 percent copper

few knew..so the mintage of 36.454.000..lasted till 1969

when the next batch of 50 cent pieces was printed
[weight 15.55 grams..composition 75 percent copper/25 percent nickle]

now lets say we hit hyper inflation
against newzealand...[which has simular weights measures/coinage]
the coin metal[silver value]..will ensure

those in the know..keep their silver coin...
while the paper notes hyperinflate

say to one million 'dollars'..to one dollar nz*

now say you got one million dolars in silver[coin]
are you fool enough to trade it for one paper nz dollar

ie to trade 5 million dolars of silver
for one nz paper dollar

ya think bankers dont know this?

[i had a childhood friend]
son of a banker..his 'job' was to go through all the new coins
[as late as eaerly 70's..

to GET THE SILVER SHILLINGS/sixpences/threepennies ETC..
out of the windfall

easy money..from fools who dont know any better

[heck im still finding silver shillings in coin today]

im saying
*RETURN OUR COIN TO ITS TRUE VALUE
[in silver]

to what it
WAS PRE THE THEFT OF IT ALL IN 1966
not put in 200 dolars worth of nickle

make 20 cents of nickle=20 dollars in PAPER

till yoiu clearly get that
its no use trying to explain it further
GOVT CAN MAKE COIN VALUE..be whatever it says it to be

after declaring a ten cent piece..to = 10 dollars
re-minting the new coin..[the same weight/size as current coins]

their face value will.. be true to its traditional value[in silver]
[and the bankers can keep their STOLEN gold/silver]

THE nickle coin REPRESENTS
one worth its..weight..in silver

it isnt silver...
its justice

now re-read the fruits of RE-capitalising the poor
with pennies..

worth their real values
not nickle values..but nickle weights
representing silver value ...by weight

GOVT BAILING OUT THE POOR PEOPLE
FROM THE BOTTUM UP
[TRICKLE DOWN dont work]

its tiome we paid those who pay for everything
what they really are worth...in coin that represents the same values as when we set govt the job of protecting the intrests of ITS PEOPLE

not serving big busioness bonus and bailout

BAILOUT the people

not the capitalists..
with notes they print at will
that govt needs to borrow AT INTREST *from the money changers

why you chjose to not see
isnt for me to fix

read the links
[go watch yesterdays keiser peport
link previously posted]

mate soon those using bailout funds
to speculate on food..will set up hyper inflation
styarving people are as deaf as you are pretending to be

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/worldservice/wbnews/wbnews_20110413-1818a.mp3

Current European policy on biofuels is causing food shortages and the chopping down of rainforests. That's the view of a leading research organisation. We hear why and put the conclusions to a biofuel businessman and an environmental campaigner.

Plus, the arguments for and against South Africa being allowed to join the BRIC club. And shares in GE fall sharply after a bogus press release does the rounds on Wall Street.

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/worldservice/wbnews/wbnews_20110414-2230a.mp3
The president of the World Bank tells the BBC that food prices are now at dangerously high levels. Robert Zoellick says soaring prices are a contributory factor to the unrest that's spread across North Africa and Middle East.

Shares of companies doing better than expected in the current economic climate helped the Dow Jones recover the ground it lost after a disappointing set of unemployment numbers. Tom Porcelli from RBC Capital Markets watched the day's action.

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/worldservice/wbnews/wbnews_20110413-2230a.mp3
President Barack Obama has unveiled how he'd like the US $14tn deficit to be tackled. The debt represents a figure of almost $50,000 for every American. So, can he do it?

not if the rich keep getting their taxes cut
but re valuing the coins..[see previous post]
brings repaynment down to only 1.4 trillion

currently there is 800 billion in coin age in usa coin
clear the debt
and start again

how
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/worldservice/wbnews/wbnews_20110411-2309a.mp3
The UK is set to reform its banking sector and separate investment banks from their retail counterparts.

[sepperate the fed from banker control
let the senet control the flow of coin
and monetise funds going to banks]

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/worldservice/wbnews/wbnews_20110411-1804a.mp3
Shaking up the banks?
Preventing a future banking crisis. A UK government panel has proposed reforms to the banking sector,

but are they as ground-breaking as they seem?

[no]
they are playing at fixing the wrong problem
it isnt credit ..but debt..thats going to kill all of us

[isnt bankers getting their bonus NOW..a clue?]
did you watch keiser report
http://youtu.be/-6V9s2o0LNI
http://youtu.be/VL0VhySHjhk

more?
google..ghost-estates
[in china ireland spain usa]

look how japan went..at least their peons
were wealthy enough..to buy THEIR govt's bonds

i must correct my math
[but in doing so..find a more reasonable answer]

1 fiat dollar equating one cent coin
might be a step too far..

but what if we added one zero..to coin values
instead of two..

ie 10 cents becomes one dollar..
20 becomes $2

[thats what i did i my last post]
when i said 1.4 trillion

had the math been right..[two zero's instead of one][in my math]
the debt would of course have been payable in 140 billion in coin

[not the 1.4 trillion..i now see as being more reasonable]

adding a 0..to face value of coin
brings the wealth..of the poor up
by a facter of 10

more than fair...
[considering the facter of 100
inflated..[deflated]..below true values

IE
stolen by money lender collusions

if you watched the keiser clips
you would have heard max..saying

84 TRILLION..STOLEN..off the global economy
stolen..for arround a cent on the dollar...

talk about diss-count-ting

[find the clip
hear the numbers he quoted]

no one can think this is fair

so fairity demands
govt mandate a coin..face value increase
by adding an 0 to the value of all coin..[in time minting new coinage]

starting with a five cent piece..
with a face value of 50 cents

anything below this
will be rounded up or down..
like we were told to do..[when they stole our copper]..[coin's]

there is room for thinking seriously

i keep posting hoping some clever person
can find some solution
and put it too their masters..in a better..more clear way

in a simular manner health seemingly..is reforming
[hopefully]

cointinues..

treat this as a simulie
of how fixed thinking can change

a docter in uk...known for speaking out against the health system
was asked to become the president of some docters assosiation

its an interesting story
it mat relate to how we can bring
sustainable change ..to the fiat/paper econonomy

Social inequalities in health Professor Sir Michael Marmot is a well-known researcher into the social determinants of health.

At a special symposium in Australia he expressed the view that 'Doctors can tackle health inequalities by addressing the causes of the causes of ill health when they see their patients'.

Hunger in developed nations Hunger,or food insecurity as it's sometimes called, s not only an issue for the developing world, but also occurs in developed nations such as Australia or the US.

Professor Maureen Black from the University of Maryland has investigated this problem.

http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2011/04/hrt_20110411.mp3

i post the main link

as other important suff
is going on finally in health
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/feeds/health.xml
http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2011/03/hrt_20110328.mp3
http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2011/03/hrt_20110321.mp3

we can try to lead
a whore/s to water

but cant make them drink
nor of course..make a hoarse think

read the signs
http://dailyreckoning.com/awaiting-the-zero-hour-of-available-credit/
note
re the us debt clock

I watch expectantly as the national debt
again nears the debt limit, and Zero Hour
is just a few weeks away, a term I cleverly used
to indicate that available credit will be zero...Maxed out.
http://dailybail.com/home/how-large-will-the-us-national-debt-be-in-2015-try-12-millio.html
http://www.thelawthatneverwas.com/new/home.asp

other stuff
http://www.cracked.com/article_19154_the-6-most-ridiculous-things-ever-taxed.html
http://dailybail.com/home/clarke-dawe-on-the-bp-oil-spill-the-first-thing-to-do-is-to.html
CORN PRICE UP 74%
in one year
http://revolutionarypolitics.com/?p=5320
http://dailybail.com/home/attention-congress-close-the-loophole-hedge-fund-manager-joh.html

some economic basics
http://zippittydodah.blogspot.com/2011/04/visibles-primer-on-basic-economics-and.html
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/4/15/offshore_banking_and_tax_havens_have
http://weeklyintercept.blogspot.com/2011/04/banks-face-36-trillion-wall-of-debt-imf.html
7 Major Problems That Cause Devastating Financial Asphyiation
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=202295
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=14581
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173#
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8OgkjcW0g4&feature=email

final warning
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/04/scientists-warn-that-drugs-of-future.html
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=14583
http://track-cell-phones.com/?p=55
http://track-cell-phones.com/?p=52
http://theintelhub.com/2011/04/14/goldman-sachs-credit-default-swaps-jump-as-levin-claims-bank-duped-clients/

http://track-cell-phones.com/?p=28
http://dailybail.com/home/senator-clair-mccaskill-to-goldman-sachs-executives-you-were.html
http://dailybail.com/home/steal-billions-like-dimon-blankfein-and-youre-doing-gods-wor.html
http://bushstole04.com/bushfascism/bush_nixon_jfk.htm
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=14580
http://track-cell-phones.com/?p=33&preview=true
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=14579

Understanding the essential simplicity is important, one under god, before you are able to tackle anything more complicated.

>>i will ignore your deliberated over simplifications<<

For example, you miss the essential simplicity underlying hyperinflation. It occurs when ordinary folk lose their trust in the currency. And it doesn't matter, when you are buying a loaf of bread, whether you are buying it with metal, or with paper.

Think it through for a moment.

It is January 1st. You have a metal coin that is worth exactly the price of a loaf of bread - let's say, $2.

By July 1st, after hyperinflation has set in, a loaf of bread costs $2 million. How many loaves of bread will you get for your metal coin?

You already know the answer, but for some reason you don't understand it.

>>pre the hyper inflation...there was a coin
after the hyper inflation is the coin
the metalic values..of the coin have not changed<<

Perhaps an easier way to explain it would be to use the metal itself, rather than bread, as the medium of exchange.

It is January 1st. You have a metal coin that is worth exactly the value of its metal content - let's say, $2.

By July 1st, after hyperinflation has set in, the same amount of metal costs $2 million. What is the value of the coin in your hand?

Does that make it any clearer?

And this won't work, I'm afraid.

>>adding a 0..to face value of coin
brings the wealth..of the poor up
by a facter of 10<<

You still have the same problem. Changing the face value doesn't alter the relationship between money and goods, or money and wages. You still want your $2 to buy a loaf, whether it is in coins or in paper. Simply calling the same coin $20 won't suddenly allow you to buy ten loaves of bread.

Capeesh?

And just a gentle word of advice, one under god.

I strongly suggest that you get your education on the economy from less biased sources. I took a look at one of your links (I don't have time for more than one or two - and definitely nothing from YouTube) and found this:

"Visible's Primer on Basic Economics and Prosperity.

...it was all about Wall Street being able to run roughshod over all legal and moral strictures, with the assistance of the veiled operations of the bloodsucking Federal Reserve. You look at the names of the players from both of these Crime Syndicates and you’re almost surprised when you find a gentile name."

It doesn't really matter whether or not you agree that the current problems are caused by a Jewish crime syndicate, as the blog post suggests.

What does matter is that you know, right there, that there won't be any skerrick of factual information to be found there about economics, or how money works.

Just uninformed blah.

Knowledge is power, one under god. Ignorance, on the other hand, can render you powerless, and ultimately paranoid.

Take some control back, by trying to understand the simple basics. It is absolutely not necessary to imagine that Finance is all about secret cabals of evil international banksters. Whether Jewish or otherwise.

lets stop dealing with what if's

a 10 shilling note [hc coombs/wilson]
in fine condition..
is valued in my rennicks catolog at 4 dollars

now ten shillings = 56 ..point 7..
grams of silver[sterling silver]

say i got it in sixpences...
in the same catologue worth 75 cents each

20 times 75 cents=$15 dollar's

[my catologue is from 1989]
since then silver has trippled in price

the last 10 shilling note i bought[for a court case]
cost me 5 bucks..[in 202]

the coin isnt worth 5 bucks
its worth 15 bucks way back when

just as you havnt got the megs to spare for searches
neither do i..[but fel fee to update the prices]
im ten bucks ahead [in 1989 values alone]

so dont be saying a coins metal
deflates the same as banknotes

fact is the german deutchmark..[in silver]
has its values in silver

regardless of how deflated the deutchmark PAPER fell to

the twisted egsample you quoted
is an absurdity...metal holds an international value
silver dont care what coin its in...the fiat inflates

but coin
is allways holding its metalic value

your playing with face values
and your getting it wrong

on the face of it you seem so clever
but your not willing to admit your flogging a dead horse

think of metal as a commodity
just as food is a commodity

silver holds its value
not as much as gold
but more than copper and nickle

but even those are worth the price
of the commodity..of which it is made

the paper/plastic..your bank/notes are made of
have a cost price of 7 cents for the paper/plastic and the ink

as previously said,..a one cent piece has copper in it
to the value of 5 cents..[in todays metal value]
it was stolen by those who knew true value's

i hope your not advising people about finance
as you dont have a clue of the reality..past the base spin

Before you ride off into the sunset on your high horse, one under god, have another attempt to answer the two key questions in my previous-but-one post.

"It is January 1st. You have a metal coin that is worth exactly the price of a loaf of bread - let's say, $2. By July 1st, after hyperinflation has set in, a loaf of bread costs $2 million. How many loaves of bread will you get for your metal coin?"

"It is January 1st. You have a metal coin that is worth exactly the value of its metal content - let's say, $2. By July 1st, after hyperinflation has set in, the same amount of metal costs $2 million. What is the value of the coin in your hand?"

You even provide the key to unlocking the solution:

>>so dont be saying a coins metal
deflates the same as banknotes<<

Of course it doesn't "deflate". But it moves in lock-step with the purchasing power of the currency it is linked to. So the $2 coin may end up being "worth" $2 million. But it still only buys one loaf of bread, does it not?

You do make an interesting point though.

>>the twisted egsample you quoted
is an absurdity...metal holds an international value
silver dont care what coin its in.<<

It is of course absolutely true that metal is traded internationally. So think through the same example, only from an international perspective.

It is January 1st. You have a metal coin that is worth exactly the price of a loaf of bread - let's say, $2. It will also buy the same loaf of bread in the next-door country.

By July 1st, after hyperinflation in your country, a loaf of bread costs $2 million in your country. How many loaves of bread will you get for your metal coin a) in your own country and b) in the next-door country, which has had no inflation at all?

>>i hope your not advising people about finance
as you dont have a clue of the reality..past the base spin<<

That's funny.

Dear one under god,

You obviously care very deeply about the issues you raise… I'm sure many OLO posters would find themselves affronted by more than one of the (very) many conditions, situations and explanations to which you have given links. There's enough malfeasance in the structures and operations of national and international financial systems to rail against without needing to include the unfounded, the untrue or the impossible.

Pericles' patient tutorials reminded me of my economic statistics classes – in the best possible way, of course. I would have told you the same things had I Pericles' skills at explanation but though I have read this thread from the beginning at least once a day for almost a fortnight, I didn't comprehend the suggestions you were making until about page 14.

If your concern is that the actions of governments, corporations and bankers make (however many) dollars you have worth less over time then you're concerned about these dollars' buying power. You do have a solution available… Spend as many dollars as you can afford to. Convert your inflation prone dollars into whatever has 'real' value to you.

Store as much of your wealth as you can afford to as gold and only convert as much of this back to money as and when you need legal tender. This isn't a perfect process – the value of gold will fluctuate – and the relative costs of things change, but it is as close to the principles you were proposing with your cupra coinage as I think you can get.

you are pretty close win
but i feel we have been systematicly ripped off

recall we changed penny weights
for cent weights

then lost our 1cents and two/cent coins

mate next its the nickle coins
[nickle is fast gaining parity
with its national/face value...INTERNATIONALY]

the only thing we can do
is return true values back into coin GLOBALLY...
over night..the worlds poor..get a bailout..all in

ie the 5 cents=50 cents..
10=$1..20=$2
50 cent=5$

and then we adjust[micro adjust]
so that a dollar coin=10 bucks
$2 coin=20 bucks

and the notes *stay at face value[and current/exchange rates]

the coins gradulally change
into proper face[with an extra 0]value

this relieves the strain..on the poor
now expected to bailout the bankers/elites

we could also bring back
the one cent as 10 cents
and two cents as 20 cents
but not in copper..but an iron coin plated in copper

even bring back..a token one cent in paper

BUT BACK TO PER/RIDICULES

as usual..your egsamples are found wanting
hyper-inflation..is local..*[so far]

like in zimbawe recently..
it left the global/others in the main..not affected

the metal is worth..the inflated price
ONLY in zimbabwe*..the metal equaled the zimbawe/price increase

for the rest of the world
the metal in the coin stayed the same 'price
*as priced in..*NON zimbawe money

but you seem to see
the absurdity of your own premise

so will continue explainig mine

you will recall..the pr/spin..
'in come the dollars..out go the pence'
it should have been..out go the pounds..to give you pennies

in the same catologue
a dollar note is worth[in 1989]
just one dollar...

[compare this to the 10 shilling note..*equivelent being worth $4]

it only gets worse when we compare coin
recall the 6 pence..worth 75 cents
the 5 cent..*we exchanged it for is woth 10 cents

so in one year
they not only took away our silver
they are still ripping out value today
just like with the theft of copper one cent/2 cents..!

dogs allways repeat tricks that work..have a payoff
fix the tricks..by adding a zero...to bailout the poor

i realise its a seemingly huge step
but with the next intrest..[inflation cycle]
the metal value of the coin..will outstrip its face values

something needs to be done
will need to be done

adding a zero..is the easiest way to fix the aberations
govts need simply deem the coin values to add a zero
this capitalises the poor[a thing i advised rudd/swan..

that i fel might have helped..them
to give a cash grant to the people
[when the rest of the world was bying bankers debt..with bailout funds..lol..lent from the self same bankers..at intrest]

ie putting the debt of private excess
upon the tax payers..in lue of letting capitalists
buy up the discounted assets..ie letting capitalism fix its own collusive system

the globe is in severe stress
the bailouts capital...they promised would create jobs
ie filter from the top..down..and instead of doing jobs for the poor..

we find they are investing in resourse and food futures
[that will inevitably bring on hyper inflation and hardship as food/resource costs..[including metals] go insane]

its time the people got a break
its time those pennies were worth dollars
everything else has a market price..but coins dont
its time we nationalised coin..put real true values upon it

..before the next big metals grab..
by those who so cleverly stole first our gold..
then our silver..then our copper coins..and soon even our nickle coins..[ending the coin-age]..

with cyber credits..its in the bank
by whim of tghose controling the computers
records dont even need be shredded..

[then]..its simply
THEN..a matter of pushing delete...
[and all the proof of their crime is gone]

stop letting.."the most clever guys..in the room"
steal everything..then delete the evidence

DONT SAY YOU WERNT TOLD..!

[ya think people are angry..*now
you aint seen nothing...yet*]

wait till anger..[HUNG-er]..stirs them
from their slumber..

http://dailybail.com/home/housing-rebound-may-never-happen-foreclosure-wastelands-ron.html
Housing Rebound May Never Happen,
Glass-Steagall Lite, Foreclosure Wastelands,
Ron Paul 2012, Wrist Slap For Banks,

And The 6 Most Ridiculous Things Ever Taxed

http://dailybail.com/home/e-trade-baby-loses-everything.html
E-Trade Baby Loses Everything

How Paulson Appointees & Former GS Employees Dan Jester & Ed Liddy Colluded To Destroy AIG And Secure A Secret Bailout For Goldman Sachs
http://dailybail.com/home/how-paulson-appointees-former-gs-employees-dan-jester-ed-lid.html

Painstaking detail follows. New angles, new details, new actors, while Henry Paulson stays behind the curtain, controlling the destruction of AIG, the pillaging of taxpayers, and the positive outcome for Goldman Sachs.

Part 2 of our look at mystery man Dan Jester.

http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=14608
the video says..Only way to stop the Insanity Is Cut Of the Funds

of course my fix
simply adding a zero to coin values
is more just..more fair...govt can simply pass a new rule[globally]

but hey so what
fools who dont realise inflation of paper values
is theft [deflation]..of real[true]..value
thus colluded thieving..

from your savings/from your wage
staying the same means its loosing in its relitive buying power

but there is more links
[i put them down to record the warning signs in one place
along with the cure...]

proud to be a truther
Truther: Slang;
A person who seeks Truth in Government,
Politics,Economics & Reality.

Truther is a term created by MSM / Military Industrial Strategists
to keep the masses perplexed, ashamed & confused
so as not to expose the corruption, lies,
Profiteering by the Military
Industrial Complex and
moral bankruptcy
in our world

BUT getting together
into another minour party
weakens the drive to personally work at bringing change

so saying
here is a feel good link
for those expecting..'others'..to fix it for you
http://theintelhub.com/2011/04/16/it%E2%80%99s-time-%E2%80%93-the-truth-party/

more rebutting the new carbon tax as a cure/all
http://revolutionarypolitics.com/?p=5325

war mongers want's 700 billion more
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VFIMTDfTDg
why are we spending it all on war?
[its economic activity]

FLASHBACK-Kaiser Goes Ballistic!: 'Pitchforks, torches, guillotines - all's fair in war on bankers'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kw1iu7XNWao&feature=player_embedded
From about 1 minute to the end!

One More Time:
WAR is a racket.
It always has been.
http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm
It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope.

It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.
[noting civilian casualties have gone UP..IN EVERY WAR

ww1 it was arround 30 percent
in the latest wars its near 90%
are you sleeping?
A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people.

Only a small "inside" group knows what it is about.

It is conducted for the benefit of the very few,
at the expense of the very many.

Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.

BANKERS GONE WILD!
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/wildbankers.php

hiden costs?
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,756369-14,00.html

lol..imf cure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seo8U5Vcnps
or are they the disease?

war on info
war on asistance of the ignorant
dont it just make ya think?..
saving pennies..so others..[BWANKERS}..can steal your house
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwtOXlwgPUM
see earlier mortgauge seizure documents fraud link

someone elses idea of truth
about silver values
[ps dont buy paper promises]
http://inflation.us/silvertruth.html

geitners zietgiest
http://dailybail.com/home/geithners-crimes-through-aig-will-the-truth-come-out.html

The War on the US Economy
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/04/war-on-us-economy.html
The federal government claims the debt is $14.3 trillion dollars,
but other economists say the US debt is closer to $200 trillion (based on projected revenue and projected spending).

Either way, a $38 billion budget reduction makes no difference.

Especially when the federal government’s actual spending will decrease by a mere $352 million compared to last year- as reported by the National Journal:
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=14601

iceland pm
soon to go to jail?
http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2011/04/15/charges-against-former-iceland-pm-expected-soon/

more from max
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktmWeynsd-Y

more spin
Currency Comptroller Takes Enforcement Action
Against Bank of America, Citibank, HSBC, JPMorgan Chase,
MetLife Bank, PNC, U.S. Bank, and Wells Fargo.
http://c7.beforeitsnews.com/story/564/977/Comptroller_Takes_Enforcement_Action_Against_Bank_of_America,_Citibank,_HSBC,_JPMorgan_Chase,_MetLife_Bank,_PNC,_U.S._Bank,_and_Wells_Fargo..html

"These comprehensive enforcement actions, coordinated among the federal banking regulators, require major reforms in mortgage servicing operations,"said acting Comptroller of the Currency John Walsh.
[pre pare for the other spin]
when they go back to business as usual

Commentary:
Trabnslation:"This is an election-year wrist-slap to wave in the media, but it won't restore a single stolen house to its rightful owner."

aint it funny
when govt fines collusion
those actually ripped off dont get a cent
and the 'fine'; costs less than they made by colluding their fraud

ie the poor never win
get used to it

Love in Disguise in a World of Lies.
http://lesvisible.blogspot.com/2011/04/love-in-disguise-in-world-of-lies.html

The thing about lying is that it’s habitual.
The problem with lying is that it alters your existence
to fit the lies and eventually you are surrounded by them.
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=14603
http://lonestarwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/04/obama-resorting-to-fear-to-raise-debt.html

This is what happens in insulated realities like Wall Street; the military, religion, entertainment. In both Wall Street and the military, the end justifies the means. This is how you get a certain kind of amoral psychopath, a flesh pressing gladhander; much like a politician.
http://weeklyintercept.blogspot.com/2011/04/35-statistics-that-show-average.html
The stock market is a lie to begin with and relies upon a mysterious sort of trust. You see that when the trust is challenged or fails at its purpose that the system has a crash.
http://dailybail.com/home/how-the-ny-fed-under-stephen-friedman-tim-geithner-pressured.html

Politicians are the indirect liars. They’re all about money too but they’re feathering the nests of their future; a nest they foul upon arrival.
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/04/us-failed-state-because-it-wont.html

Rand Paul"Church Never Asked For More Than 10%
I Don't Know Why Government Should Get More!
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=14590

http://dailybail.com/home/nyt-tim-geithner-convinced-ny-ag-andrew-cuomo-to-back-off-wa.html
to back off..from prosi-cute-ing

many more links
but im sick
and tired

http://whatreallyhappened.com/
do your own due diligence

That's absolutely right, one under god.

>>hyper-inflation..is local..*[so far]
like in zimbawe recently..
it left the global/others in the main..not affected
the metal is worth..the inflated price
ONLY in zimbabwe*..the metal equaled the zimbawe/price increase
for the rest of the world
the metal in the coin stayed the same 'price
*as priced in..*NON zimbawe money<<

Which is exactly the point I made.

You are now in a position to take this knowledge, and apply it to the examples I gave you.

Concentrate on that loaf of bread - which is what everyone was forced to do in times of hyperinflation - and all will soon become clearer.

Once you have followed that line of thought, try to understand it in terms of your "add-a-zero" plans for our coinage.

Rather than think of it in an abstract sense, work through a concrete example. Today you have a twenty-cent coin, ten of which will buy you a loaf of bread. Tomorrow, you go to the same shop, only this time you expect the baker to give you a loaf in exchange for only one coin.

Would he sell you the loaf?

But equally importantly, think for a moment of the timing. You, in your role as Prime Minister, announce that on 30th June, at midnight, all 10c coins will be worth $1.

What would you do, when you heard this announcement? What would everyone else do? What would the Banks/shopkeepers/bus drivers do?

>>i realise its a seemingly huge step
but with the next intrest..[inflation cycle]
the metal value of the coin..will outstrip its face values<<

The only problem is, your proposal cannot on its own stop this from happening.

thanks for finally getting down to the nuts and bolts [practicalities]..of the revaluation

first it would need to be globally
and be sen as restoring that inflation has taken away

inflation really is theft
but its affect is worse on the poor

the change would happen overnight
to stop things like hoarding especially by shopkeepers
but as with all these things its better to let a few have more of a gain than others

[every sceme has its weakness..
but by far most small change is held by those
able to save only the pennies...[by this method
all the other hoarded copper cents will get flushed out]

they will then have a value of 10 cents
and twenty cents[which is only just a bit less than the copper they hold]..

but the thing is there is returned
a buffer between value of the coins metal..
and inflation constantly eating away at its face value

by twisted money market value's
based on the paper values
demeaning the coin face values away into nothing

i did fine out of the pennies and cents
[in copper values]..

and will also do fine out of the nickle values

just as im doing fine with the silver values
of the pre decimal coins i knew to hold on to
but its time the poor got their bailout
not just those in the know

i could advise that the mint link you posted
should be looked at again..by those thinking
a dollar is only worth a dollar..

like say the dollar proof coin valued at 50$
[because its made of silver]..

but on its face is...*one dollar[face value]

those not knowing the difference..will find the dollar..
and pass it on for a dollar..

[when any dealer would happily give them
30 dollars for that..*one dollar coin]

meaning a dollar should be at least equal to 50 dollars
making[changing] it to $10 is a fair resolution
to a masive colluded deception..

[done upon the holders of coin globally
for far too long]

todays crop

which will hurt more..for longer
austerity 'measures'[see link]

or re-valuating coin
to re-store..its true value[read previous posts]

from link
Anarchy erupts in Greece as austerity bites
http://www.blacklistednews.com/Anarchy_erupts_in_Greece_as_austerity_bites/13550/0/0/0/Y/M.html

As explosions boom, the town's loudspeakers blare: "Attention! Attention! We are under attack!"

Air-raid sirens wail through the streets,
mingling with the frantic clanging of church bells.

Clouds of tear gas waft between houses
as helmeted riot police move in to push back the 'rebels'.

This isn't a war zone, but a small town just outside Athens.
And while its fight is about a rubbish dump,..it captures Greece's angry mood..over its devastated economy.

diva-stated by who?

who got the value/pleasure
who got the debt/pain

i guess if we only read/listen/obey.. 'media'
we will never know..and the pain will simply go away?

it begins with a powerfull lobby
http://www.redress.cc/americas/ldavidson20110418

and threats to 'media'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/apr/17/gagging-order-journalists-jail

giving special powers
http://revolutionarypolitics.com/?p=5334

making special laws
http://lonestarwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/04/nullification-interview-with-zombie.html

numbers cant lie
but accounting can twist
or not mention certain numbers
control the media+con-troling the numbers
http://theintelhub.com/2011/04/17/inside-the-numbers/

extort money and taxes from the poor and ignorant
[the unrepresented swill..the great unwashed]
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=14612

make deals[that really dont mean anything
when war dont need budgeting/nor accounting for]
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/04/geithner-certain-of-debt-limit-deal.html

keep making deals and pr spin
to cover other oppressions
they are only numbers
http://uruknet.com/?p=m76911&hd=&size=1&l=e
http://uruknet.com/?p=m76915&hd=&size=1&l=e
http://uruknet.com/?p=m76916&hd=&size=1&l=e
http://uruknet.com/?p=m76917&hd=&size=1&l=e
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=24327
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=24354

to hide the real crimes
http://dailybail.com/home/where-are-the-wall-street-prosecutions-gretchen-morgenson-ag.html
http://dailybail.com/home/tim-geithner-says-the-united-states-is-insolvent.html
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2011/04/17/interview-with-carlos-latuff-divided-palestinians-are-weak/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/16/bahrain-eyewitness-riot-police

the real rule is do as you chose
http://dailybail.com/home/busted-watch-tarp-republican-paul-ryan-begging-congress-to-v.html
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=24357

only when there is nothing left to win
will we have nothing left to loose

http://lonestarwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/04/gold-fever-and-nuclear-meltdownwhat-do.html
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fbi-counterterror-official-al-qaeda-thrives-dictators-fall/story?id=13386531

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/04/13/real_estate-financials-us-foreclosure-reimbursed_8406573.html
Gov't orders 14 lenders
to reimburse homeowners

The Fed said it believed financial penalties
were "appropriate" and that it planned to levy fines in the future.

All three regulators said they would review the foreclosure audits.

Commentary:
Translation: Every time the bankers steal a $250,000 house
and get caught,

they have to pay a $25,000 fine,
but nobody goes to jail!

SO DONT BE SAYING GOVT CANT ADD A ZERO
it can steal it from the poor
its time they got a break

and still the collusions go on
http://torrentfreak.com/new-zealand-government-rushes-through-controversial-anti-piracy-law-110413/

New Zealand Government Rushes
Through Controversial Anti-Piracy Law

The New Zealand government has surprised the public and even some MPs by moving to rush through its controversial 3 strikes-style legislation today.

The new measures will allow for users to be disconnected from the Internet for up to 6 months, based on infringement claims from copyright holders
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110401/23300013745/drm-accused-sending-personal-info-to-help-with-licensing-shakedown.shtml
DRM. Is there nothing evil it can't do?

Between installing rootkits and propping open back doors,
DRM is a copyright enforcer's best friend.

Miguel Pimentel, a Boston-area architect, believes he's stumbled across its latest trick: extracting $150,000 from your wallet via a quick unannounced "phone home"..to the nearest copyright cop

[ps we allready got it in oz]
read the nbn legislation

the fox rules the henhouse
cause the hooker polititions..let em in

I think you may be wandering further away from the point, one under god. But no matter.

You would do well, though, to think through the numbers and equations that you spray around. Here's one from earlier:

>>currently there is 800 billion in coin age in usa coin<<

There are 307 million people in the US.

Simple mathematics tells you that this number would mean that every man, woman and child is carrying around $2,600 in loose change.

Does that sound feasible to you?

Or are you including the value of numismatists' collections? If so, it would be important to ensure that the amount you select is consistent. Is it "cumulative face value", "aggregate value of metal content" or "market value of individual pieces at auction".

Whichever is the case, I doubt very much whether the average Joe has more than, say, five bucks in change in his pocket. Your instant tenfold multiplication, with the best will in the world, is hardly going to alleviate poverty.

Could buy a round of drinks, I suppose.

its not..what people have..
in their pockets+penny jars

my hope was govt would gift..some pennies to its people
much like rudds bailout..

but to the numbers/quoted
from

http://www.visualeconomics.com/the-value-of-united-states-currency-in-circulation/

informs the total currency[coin and notes]=
""In 2008, the total value of all U.S. bills, including federal reserve notes and currency no longer being issued, was $853.2 billion.""

[my TOTAL number
800 billion from memory was close]

further on it says this
''The total number of all of the coins was 2.585 trillion.''

so many might be one cent two cent dimes nickles etc
but lets say they were all one cent..the value would shift
from whatever the number really is..[feel free to speculate]

i was only..quoting from memory
and the combined number previously posted
in lue of a specific...number ..is enough to make my point

any rebutal..would nessisarilly have had to present
the true number
to refut my number...

in lue of your supplying a number
i now have clarified

and will..give you acturate numbers
when you give me the full numbers

for now..read

""2009 Circulating Coin Production

The number of coins that are dated 2009
is made up of 1.65 trillion pennies,""
their value to its people would go from
16.billion
to 165 billion

the""86.64 million nickels,""
current face value=430,000
divide by 5
multiply by 10
new values=4.3 million

the"146 million dimes,"
current face value/1.46 million
multiply by ten
add in a decimal point
new value=14.6 million

anyhow im not a math wizzard like you

do your own math
quote""379.12 million quarters,
3.4 million 50-cent coins and
322.98 million $1 coins.

Of the $1 coins, 271.88 million are presidential coins
and 51.1 million are Native American coins.""

i dont care what you think is feasable
the true facts..must be regarded as factual
just as an honest/money must reflect true values

ok the paper values stay as is

but in the nickle and dimes
lies a salvation..of sorts
for those seking to do the right thing

that is only fair
only the unfair can refut
the fairness i have tried to present

aint this intersting?

tried to go to
http://www.facebook.com/KeiserReport

to get a link..for yesterdays show
as the one broadcast free to air here
edited out the first bit..

[where max
and the femail hostess do thier thing]
updating the last few days of market raqueteering/scandel etc

[some huge things happening..from usa debt downgrading from aaa
to more banks going bust..as well ass so much opther stuff i couldnt bebotherd to post the links..[visit the whats really happening site and see]

anyhow finally got to the page
so its either this one
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2Fgec9XndupiQ&h=08089

or this one
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2F0z7InFcD5v0&h=08089

i have noticed over time
simply beginning to write about the convolutions
seems to remedy acces problems

so dont say blogging has no affect

do check out whatsreallyhappening.com
go back a few pages..things are moving fast

I love numbers. Don't you, one under god?

I especially love this one:

"2009 Circulating Coin Production: The number of coins that are dated 2009 is made up of 1.65 trillion pennies..."

Wow. In one year of production, the mint produces enough one cent coins to put 5,500 of them into the pocket of every American citizen, man, woman and child.

One year!

That is a staggering statistic, is it not.

Tell me, do you actually believe it?

I don't. So I did some checking, as is my habit.

"...the U.S. Mint has produced more than 312 billion pennies over the past 30 years for distribution to depository institutions by the Federal Reserve. More than 114 billion pennies are estimated to be in active circulation throughout the United States today, which equates to almost 426 pennies for every man, woman, and child in the country. In 1999, the Mint will produce 13 billion pennies to meet the additional needs of the public."

http://data.newyorkfed.org/banking/circulars_archive/11182.html

OK, so that was 1999. Why would they feel the need, a mere twelve years later, to increase production from 13 billion to 1.65 trillion? That's a factor of 127.

>>anyhow im not a math wizzard like you<<

Never a truer word.

So, what do you think, one under god?

>>i dont care what you think is feasable
the true facts..must be regarded as factual<<

So is it a "true fact" that every US citizen has six thousand one cent coins rattling around in the pocket or purse. Or nappy, of course, since the population includes babies.

Tell you what. If you believe that, it certainly explains why you believe Arjay's 9/11 theories.

per's quote''1999,the Mint will produce 13 billion pennies to meet the additional needs of the public."<<http://data.newyorkfed.org/banking/circulars_archive/11182.html>>OK, so that was 1999.""

yes..aint it clever how EVEN you couldnt find the right number
THE BEST even YOU could find..was 1999...

i can only go by the numbers that showup in my search reasults
[just as you can]..you founf the numbers for 1999..[i found the numbers for 2009]

and as you so cleverly point out
they are different

a point i pointed out
''in lue of your supplying a number
i now have clarified
and will..give you acturate numbers
when you give me the full numbers""

so you couldnt* find
the actual numbers

and mine seem a worry

thats plenty 'enough'..
for rebutting the basic concept..[lol]

noting you still havnt provided the current
real numbers

nor attempted to fill in the real numbers
for all the coin

we both gave links

you trust the fed
but the best they gave YOU
was 1999..numbers
[and that dont seem suss to you]

try reading some links at
http://whatreallyhappened.com/

there are worrying things happening

i note you have nothing to say re max keisers report's
so nothing has changed..usa is still going to go bust
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/04/debt-warning-rocks-us-economy.html

its still lending dollars at 2%...then giving it to mates at zero

income has quadrupled for the top 400
and their tax payed halved
http://www.themysteryworld.com/2011/04/report-in-12-years-income-for-richest.html

thats win win

ps obama has prepared for spring riots
http://track-cell-phones.com/?p=155

american jobs are gone
http://www.whitehouseforsale.org/documents/102804offshoring.pdf

The US Government took your jobs,
so that the bankers could take your homes,
and make you think it was all your own fault!

Here we are in 2011 with a 46% employment rate and a 60 year low in tax revenues while the government scratches their head, wonders what the hell happened, and goes right back to showering money all over Wall Street, Israel, and the Military-Security-Industrial complex.!
http://www.benzinga.com/press-releases/10/12/b661910/the-hackett-group-acceleration-of-offshoring-trend-driving-loss-of-mill
http://www.progressiveliving.org/editorial_offshoring_American_jobs.htm

http://www.activistpost.com/2011/04/are-rising-oil-and-food-prices-scam.html
but why bother
your too clever

Dear oneundergod,

With one link and only a couple of main points you made it much easier for people like me to follow your arguments with your post on Monday at 3:45 PM. Thank you. When a teacher, I often used visualeconomics' website.

You might be interested to know that you do have allies in your thoughts about central and reserve banks. The Austrian School (of economics) hold similar beliefs, though for different reasons. Peter Hume's posts will give you an idea of the logic behind their theories.

Last Saturday you said, "there is room for thinking seriously
i keep posting hoping some clever person
can find some solution
and put it too their masters..in a better..more clear way."

Have you considered doing the opposite? Instead of you doing more of the serious thinking and posting could you not ask the questions you want addressed and seek other people's solutions.

Dear Pericles,

"1.65 trillion pennies" made me sit up and take notice also… It is as you say a staggering statistic and I didn't believe it either. So, I first checked the referenced link in case it was a typo – it wasn't and the dataset was sourced to the US Dept of the Treasury, noting that it was 'year to date'. Googling "2009 circulating coin production" took me to the United States Mint website coin production page. Which yielded:

2009 Circulating Coin Production (in millions)
January 2009 through December 2009
Total: 2354.00M 86.64M 146.00M 533.92M 3.80M 71.26M 352.38M 3548.0M

Though not labelled I believe these column totals are (left to right); one cent, five cent, 10 cent, 25 cent, 50 cent, one dollar and cumulative total.

The US Mint actually produced 2.354 trillion pennies in 2009. 4.01083 trillion pennies in 2010 and1.0724 trillion pennies in the first three months of this year! No wonder the "United State Mint receives more than $1 billion in annual revenues." And, unlike here their mint only makes coins! The Bureau of Engraving and Printing is responsible for paper money.

None of this has made me believe in any kind of 9/11 conspiracies.

Oneundergod, this from Wikipedia about the Austrian School:

"Accordingly, many Austrian School economists support the abolition of the central banks and the fractional-reserve banking system, and advocate instead a return to money based on the gold standard, or less frequently, free banking. Money could only be created by finding and putting into circulation more gold under a gold standard.

At the beginning of his career Alan Greenspan, former chairman of the Federal Reserve, was also a strong advocate of the Gold Standard as a protector of economic liberty:

In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value. If there were, the government would have to make its holding illegal, as was done in the case of gold. If everyone decided, for example, to convert all his bank deposits to silver or copper or any other good, and thereafter declined to accept checks as payment for goods, bank deposits would lose their purchasing power and government-created bank credit would be worthless as a claim on goods. The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard.

Advocates argued that the Gold Standard would constrain unsustainable and volatile fractional-reserve banking practices, ensuring that money supply growth ("inflation") would never spiral out of control. Ludwig von Mises asserted that civil liberties would be better protected:

It is impossible to grasp the meaning of the idea of sound money if one does not realize that it was devised as an instrument for the protection of civil liberties against despotic inroads on the part of governments. Ideologically it belongs in the same class with political constitutions and bills of rights..."

thanks for that wm
the any possability..of the gold standard has flown]
so too has that of silver..[as others have pointed out on the links
there isnt enough gold/silver left to do the job]

its for this reason i suggest the cupra nickle equiv-lent
mainly that the current coin is near its parity in cupranickle
[revising the values now..by the facter of ten..should see us safely through the next few inflationary cycles]

these are inevitable
the links reveal an upcomming food crisis
and a rush into having real commodity values are only bringing the time of urgent action all the more forward..

little metioned as yet
is the shortness of the global inventry
[the just in time...delivery..allready has seen a shortage of componants to build vehicles and soon other stuff...because japan cant produce its part of the production cycle..due to its current trials]

there is also the old trick..comming home to roost
of wages..and global levies and taxe/burdens...mainly upon the poor[its well known to take tax from the few rich dont return as much as the same tax upon the poor]thus the use of acces rather than user fees

that is going to reap its fruits
now the true unemployment
[over 40 percent just in usa]
soon the same i europe..reveals
'austerity measures burdened upon the poor..
isnt going to pay for the excess of the elite and wealthy

we are fast going to the wall
if the poor dont get a bailout...soon
[and hiding the truth..isnt going to work for long]

my base revalue micro adjustment of coin
is as i see it...a matter that can be reseting..
[or rather putting into temporay abayance]..the inevitable collapse

capitalisation of the poor
because sending the consumers broke..wont work

[trickle-down affect has failed]

Well, thank you for the additional digging, WmTrevor, you found the up-to-date information that I missed.

But I think you may also be confused by the billion/trillion problem.

My trusty calculator goes into meltdown when playing with numbers like these, so I pull up a spreadsheet instead.

>>The US Mint actually produced 2.354 trillion pennies in 2009<<

The data that you provide says 2354.00M, which comes from here:

http://www.usmint.gov/about_the_mint/coin_production/index.cfm?action=production_figures&allCoinsYear=2009

By now you probably know where this is leading... 2,345.00 million is in fact 2.345 billion. Not trillion.

Which makes a bit more sense, as this is only $0.07c per person.

Interestingly, if you use the same source and change 2009 to 2001, you find that in that year they minted 10334.59 million (which, as we now know, is 10.3 billion), which given the population that year was actually $0.36c per head.

Or "only" 36c a head, whichever way you like to look at it.

No matter. I think we have finally ended the math lesson, for which, I am sure, one under god is truly grateful, since he obviously hates it.

>>anyhow im not a math wizzard like you<<

The only point of following this particular trail anyway was to highlight the silliness of the "multiply coin vales by ten" bee that he has in his bonnet.

The "convert to metal" idea has no legs either, I'm afraid.

>>If everyone decided, for example, to convert all his bank deposits to silver or copper or any other good, and thereafter declined to accept checks as payment for goods, bank deposits would lose their purchasing power and government-created bank credit would be worthless as a claim on goods.<<

If "everybody" did that, the Banks would be empty, and would have to close. Think about that for a moment in a practical, rather than an ideological manner. Consider the path of a bottle of milk from the cowshed to the shelf in the corner shop, and explain to us all - roughly - how that might work.

Banks are a fairly important cog in that process, once you stop thinking politically.

Dear Pericles,

As they say on some television shows, here is one I prepared earlier… Or it least a post I wordprocessed off-line last night while I tried to work out why my USB modem connection kept failing (faulty USB extension cable).

"Dear Pericles,

With reflection I worried that my reference to conspiracies was too oblique and obscured my attempt at *intrigue*… the points I hoped people followed were the first site mentioned trillions, the US mint site numbers matched, but in a table open to interpretation. A cursory look would confirm the basic numbers and assume the 'trillions' still applied.

The US mint produces a lot of coins, but merely several billions of them a year."

I wish I had been able to get back here before now, it may have saved you some time which I am prepared to compensate in cupras. But I am hanging on to my 1930 Australian proof penny. Apologies.

ok glad we finally got the numbers straight
but lets get back to the math

what is 2.3 billion times 2.500 grams
[how close is it to the 'face value' of $23.54 million]

this number equals the cost price of the zinc
we could do it proper values including the copper
[one cent coin is 2 percent copper..98 percent zinc]

anyhow lets go the ozzie penny
weighing 9.45 grams..
[exchanged for a cent/weighing 2.59 grams]

there were 12 pennies [weight 113.40 grams]
we were conned into trading for 5.66 grams of curpa nickle
[if we traded them for a 10 cent piece]

or if we traded a shilling
[sterling SILVER weight 5.65 grams of silver
excanged for 5.66 grams of cupra nickle]

any fool can see we got scamed
if only by trading 113.40 grams of copper coin[pennies]
for 25.9 grams of copper cent pieces

even in trading 12 coppers for 10 cents
we got ripped off

then it was 24 shillings to the pound
but we gave up a pound for a measly two bucks

[or twenty-four silver shillings
[weight 135.60 grams/silver
for 113.6 grams/of nickle]

sems we get the shaft
because we trust others to do the math

fool me once shame on me
fool me twice shame on you

for me the math never seems to work
in favour of the litle guy

allways those expert at 'money'..
get the big win

we can round up or round down

but we get screwed all the same
by the same greedy money/changers

the facts are there for all to see*

it simply needs an honest broker to run the real numbers
then we can play by honest rules..not scam the ignorant guy

the coin-age scam is nothing to the fiat-money scam
which pales into insignificance with the cyber/credit scam

And an afterthought… I suggested the 'hold gold' idea as a personal solution for oneundergod's concerns and referenced the quote from Alan Greenspan in Wikipedia to show there were other similar lines of thought.

I suspect we are in 'violent' agreement. Your last sentence also works worded as, "Banks are a fairly important cog in that process, whether you stop or start thinking politically."

pers quote/""The "convert to metal" idea has no legs either,..I'm afraid.""[so you should be]...lol

im not saying..convert into metal
im saying..restore the true-value..of the metal
BACK..into the coin

we had coins..of silver
with silver values*

the silver..has been stolen[its gone]
but the criminality of the theft is clear!

to fix that would mean returning..100 times current values
back into its face value..

but..this semed a step too far..
so i accept 10 times..*as being fair

i too had trouble posting yesterday
but lets look..at your egsample..today

''>>If everyone decided,to convert all his bank deposits
to silver or copper or any other good,"""

thats not what im saying
im saying keep the notes
just re adjust the coin values
back closer to traditional and currently more true
*market values

based on their traditional representative value..
and real metal market value..based on current metal quality/content

but you waffle on..""and thereafter declined to accept checks as payment for goods,""

im not saying that either
nor credit bnor notes
only re-adjust coins face value

""bank deposits would lose their purchasing power and government-created bank credit would be worthless as a claim on goods.<<""

this is pure hyper-bile
notes will still be notes
exchanged for other notes and coin

ONLY COIN WILL GET REVALUED

""If "everybody" did that,
the Banks would be empty,and would have to close.""

mate thats insane

""Think about that for a moment in a practical,
rather than an ideological manner.""

think about WHAT IS FAIR
stuff practicality..[ie the THEFT of gold/silver/copper]

work with what we got
revalue the value that remains
that soon will get stolen..by the same means
by the same crooks..[not your bankers..but the fed..run by 12 of them]

stop thinking politically!

you didnt steal the silver
[or did you?]

why are you defending the indefensable?

By a strange quirk of fate, in my intray this morning was an email that was promoting a finance newsletter.

It had this teaser headline:

"What a 2,300-Year-Old Coin Reveals About Gold"

Intriguing, I thought. one under god would like to see this.

And I was right. It went on to say...

"...the oldest gold coin dates back 2300 years to the days of the Greek Empire. Back then, that coin would have been enough to feed a family for a few months. And 23 centuries of turbulent history later, it can still do the same today. Every time I hold that coin, it reminds me why I own precious metals: because they are a better store of value than anything else."

Unfortunately, what this guy is saying, is that the value of that gold coin has not actually changed, at all.

It could feed a family for a few months, back then. It can feed a family for a few months, today (he says). So even in his own eyes, the actual value of that coin has not increased one bit.

He demonstrates clearly that although it has "stored" the value, that value hasn't changed. You'd still have to work x number of hours, or sell y tonnes of wheat, to get your hands on that coin.

But wait.

There's more.

Typically, a Greek coin of that period would weigh less than half an ounce. So, by weight alone, that would be worth, at best, A$700 today.

That would be insufficient, I suggest, even in the most frugal household to "feed a family for three months".

Which is unfortunately exactly the opposite of what he suggested that a 2,300-Year-Old Coin Revealed About Gold.

Am I getting through yet, one under god?

Yesterday's BBC News featured in their magazine section (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11443564) an article called "Why are we so emotional about money?"

It includes: "Money is emotional. Debt sparks worry. A windfall is exciting. And many people dose up on retail therapy, shopping to feel better.

"Ask people what emotions are most frequently associated with money, and this is the rank-ordered list: anxiety, depression, anger, helplessness, happiness, excitement, envy, resentment," says psychologist Adrian Furnham.

He is co-creator of BBC Lab UK's new Big Money Test (https://www.bbc.co.uk/go/news/int/linkbbc/-/labuk/experiments/money/), which explores links between personality and money behaviour."

I haven't taken the on line test yet, I'm a bit hesitant because the rank ordered list (above) also describes my sex life.

try naming the actual coin
not generalising about 'greek coins' generally

if your old enough to recall
you may recall your parents buying their home..for = or minus$300 pounds
this was..an average price..
of 300 pounds..[of silver]for an average home

the average home today
is still worth 300 pounds..of silver

so..in silver value..not much has changed
but lets recall the big decimalisation scam
where we took our 300 pound promisory-notes..to the bank
and they gave us 600 fiat/dollar-notes*

if i had the shillings..the 300 pounds represented
i could stil buy a house..with the silver value..in my shillings

if you held the 600 dollars..in notes
you could pay the water bill

you have made my case

lets try the same in copper-coin
12 pennies to the shilling..[@ 9.45 grams each]
times 24 shillings..to the pound
times 300 pounds..= a heck of a lot of copper value

much more than the 600 in notes you got under your bed

why is it so?
thing is inflation...chews up face-value*

it deflates worth..[inflation is the thief you got..
when the thieves rule the roost]stealing even the paper values of the notes under the bed

its rather clever really
[and dont be saying real/value's..
prices of real/goods
dont go up every year
because the notes to buy them...deflate in comparitive value

the notes we hold
stay the same numeric values
fixed only in the face-value of the coin

but the metal/value in the coin..goes up with market forces

then there is collectable-values
this is where your greek coin scam falls apart

but heck you keep going
in your trusting in paper
and lol trusting in banks

[ha in the news last/night]
termites ate the paper-securities...lol

that dont happen to..*shillings..
and...*copper/nickle coins

its interesting looking at printing numbers for 'pennies'
pre 1960 the mintage was between 10 million and 15 million[times 9.45 grams]

then in 1959,there was a printing of only 1.7 million
fast followed by a printing of 10 million

in 1960 the minting was inceased to over 20 million
61/just under 32 mil
62/38 mil
63/34 mil
then 64 55.5 mil..plus another minting of 54.5 mil

clearly the writing was on the wall
the cost of over 100 milion copper pennies
reveals the weight/value of the copper fast outstripped face value
[this wasnt noted in the silver mintings]

but as hisdtry reveals
the weight of copper was reduced from penny weight 9.45 grams
to cent weights..2.59 grams...

its interesting to note the mintings of the new cent coin
146 million..plus 238m..plus 26 mil..[just for 66]
minting in 67/110 million[68 saw a return to previous numbers19 mil]
then to the huge numbers from 69 onward

69/87 mil
70/72 mil
71/102 mil..etc etc

anyhow as histry records
we lostour one and two cent pieces
interestingly enough just as the numbers minted were falling
followingh a masive minting in 82..[156 million]
likely to boost up the caee for stealing our copper coin

ie read the numbers
81/40 mil
82/156 mil
83/20 mil
84/57 mil
85/34.5 mil
86/none
87/none
88/30 mil
89...numbers not released

anyhow justice must see us getting a one cent 'value'
that equals 9.45 grams of copper..

or as a minumum 2.59 grams

[adding a zero..is more than fair]
especially if comparing the values
of sterling silver values
compared to nickle values...

WHO STOLE OUR SILVER and copper
next they steal your nickle

how can you defend such criminality?

a 'sound money act for utah[haha]
http://dailybail.com/home/introducing-the-utah-sound-money-act-an-idea-whose-time-has.html

also includes a histry of Zimbabwe
the latest of a long string of failed fiat currencies.
http://www.mint.com/blog/finance-core/hyperinflation-the-story-of-9-failed-currencies/

A currency need not undergo hyperinflation,
however, to be rendered worthless.

Since its inception in 1913, the Federal Reserve Note (“U.S. Dollar”) has lost 96% of its value
http://www.aier.org/research/briefs/1826-the-long-goodbye-the-declining-purchasing-power-of-the-dollar

through a steady (and sinisterly mis-reported) inflation.
http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=368
*
25% Of Scotia Mocatta's Silver Transferred From "Registered" To "Eligible" Status: A 45% Reduction In "Physical"

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/45-scotia-mocattas-registered-silver-transferred-eligible-status
registered silver is actual physical Comex silver.
Eligible on the other hand is sometimes called "someone else's silver" as it does not go through assays on exit/selling events.

In other words, this is silver
that can not be used to make delivery under a futures contract.

same with gold
http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/energy/files/Gold_Stocks.xls

as for paper [lol]
termites eat rupees in bank*
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42715428/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/

White House Website Lying About Your Taxes
http://warisacrime.org/content/white-house-website-lying-about-your-taxes

The White House website claims to calculate both veterans' expenses and foreign affairs separately

and still put "defense" alone at 26.3%.

However, take a look now at the pie chart created by the War Resisters League, which shows 51% of the budget going to the military.

21% and 26.3% and 51% aren't even close to each other.
This is not "good enough for government work."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/the-dollar-less-almighty-big-investors-see-possible-long-term-currency-weakness/2011/04/19/AFxVaKLE_story.html?hpid=z1

http://www.activistpost.com/2011/04/save-usa-by-restoring-government-to-its.html
dont say they cant get proof
http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/state-police-can-suck-data-out-cell-phones-un

its all unraveling rather fast
good thing we got a right royal destraction

anyhow this is part two
then soon..hyper inflation
part one is here
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4433&page=0

just trying to join some dots
havnt refrshed the page..[2 what really happend]..yet
keiser report wouldnt play youtube

so didnt get to catch up there either
its fan splattering time soon

[more..in no particular order]
gold/silver prices are rising
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/04/52-to-56-silver-by-mid-year-update.html
we know what that means
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-27/gold-climbs-nearing-record-on-investor-concern-currencies-to-extend-drop.html

more signs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C11cXXwUd1A
[its cause is quantative easing..too easy fiat paper[credit]
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=14732

[easy money looking for a value..a return]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrKfP34xi1E

others just hanging on to a "resource"
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/Russia-bans-petrol-exports-afp-3212564672.html
saving themselves first
http://netrightdaily.com/2011/04/iceland-declares-independence-from-international-banks/
"Austerity" = "Making the poor pay for the crimes of the rich" = "Class warfare."

failing resouces
Chrysler To Repay Bailout[loans]
With Bank Loans, paid for with its own paper/Bonds

Chrysler says it will take out bank loans
and sell debt..later this quarter to repay $6.6 billion in bailout loans from the U.S. and Canadian governments...

people still wont buy cars
[they got no jobs]
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/27/us-nokia-idUSTRE73Q1XH20110427
Rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic?

even student debt semed safe...lol
http://weeklyintercept.blogspot.com/2011/04/student-loan-debt-hell-21-statistics.html

fenma camps will open soon
[see the back pages]
read the tea leaves
http://weeklyintercept.blogspot.com/2011/04/petraeus-to-cia-completes-cheneys-dream.html

lets talk about drug money[cia]

learn to laugh
http://lonestarwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/04/parody-on-obama-budgeting-by-ray.html

liars/frauds
http://www.nysun.com/editorials/the-dog-that-didnt-bark/87324/

lets not see the sax marburg..[hrh]..link
recall gold-man sax[see previous links]

all that lost info
got your head[info in a cloud?
http://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-lost-data-2011-4

they planned their excuses well
[and that wasa this mornings news
by tonight who knows]

I think I see where we drifted apart on this, one under god.

>>if i had the shillings..the 300 pounds represented
i could stil buy a house..with the silver value..in my shillings
if you held the 600 dollars..in notes
you could pay the water bill
you have made my case<<

Your position is that metal is useful for savings.

I can't disagree with that, as a generalization. You will have exactly the same amount at the end of the period as you did at the beginning. Congratulations.

But the question remains: If the silver that you bought for (say) fifty bucks is now worth $600, have you actually gained? Because the chances are very high that it would also have been just enough for the water bill, back then.

I was under the impression you wanted to use it as currency, not take it out of circulation.

No-one in their right mind puts paper money under the mattress these days - the bedbugs will eat it, for one thing. But for the exact reason that money is relative, not constant, it doesn't make a blind bit of difference if you are paid in paper money or in copper coins... unless your only objective is to store it away so that it "retains" its value.

Guess what.

You can do that today. Buy copper. Stick it in a safe place. Bring it out when you need it and say "look, my pound of copper is now worth five bucks, and I bought it for four. Yippee".

So it is entirely unnecessary to turn the entire system into metal - it would be far too cumbersome and unwieldy to carry around a pound of copper to exchange for a cup of coffee of a morning.

Think of the poor barista.

why...is it a blind spot..for you
600$ equals 300 pounds

one pound..was redeemable in shillings
ie one pound of shillings..for a one pound note

now lets say i had 300 pounds
that i converted into silver/shillings
[and you had 300 pounds..you convetred into 600 dollars]

today..you still have $600 face-value dollars
and i still hold 300 POUNDS..weight* of silver

the talk is
that there is a run on silver
people getting out/of their dollars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrKfP34xi1E
and gold
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-27/gold-climbs-nearing-record-on-investor-concern-currencies-to-extend-drop.html

a shortage of silver
http://snardfarker.ning.com/xn/detail/2649739:BlogPost:373960?xg_source=activity

media saying..sell us your silver gold
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C11cXXwUd1A

silver is expected to hit $50 buck's
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=14732

or 52/56..per oz soon
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/04/52-to-56-silver-by-mid-year-update.html

20 ounces..the pound?
times 50$
=1000

times 300
=300,000..$$$$$$

im holding real value
[near the price..of a house..today]

you hold 600 dollars
face value..in dollar notes

i think blind freddy can see
even at 25 bucks an oz

i still got $150.000
and you still got $600

i last bought silver..at 19 bucks an oz

really i dont care..if you do or not
[and im not bying anymore]..

i bought when i saw value
todays price isnt a bargin
[for me]..

but even so
im not ready to go bying coffee..with my shillings

you do as you like
with your fiat/paper notes

noting if you had kept..EVEN your pound notes
their collectable value..is way abouve $600

yes my objective was to store away the value
i still have no idea what you intend

but the fact is
the nickle/metal in the coin
currently is near its face/value

once we hit the next inflation cycle..
its face/value
falls below the value of its metal content
just like happend to silver
and gold before it

and the last one
[copper coin]

that had a face/value of one cent
but a copper-value of 5 cents

and
[no
im not bying coffee ..with them either]

and yes i keep every coin..
prefering to spend my notes

in time..who knows

i may sell one..
or may sell the other

or just keep spending my notes

and collecting my coins
seeds/stamps/watches/books..etc etc

perry i thought you would at least
respect the difference between
quality and quantity

after all its that which distinguises
the common from the toff

let the common hold common/stocks
and the 'others' hold voting/stocks
[the mug..day-punters
wouldnt know the difference]

but mate
lets at least here,,*be honest

you know quantitive'easing' has failed
the so called trickledown/affect..
simply speaking dont trickle/down

so its time we tried QUALITIVE*easing
[as mentioned abouve]..by adding a..'0'
to all coinage..

ie..we bailout the poor..
for whome coin still holds a value

not the rich with 'quantity'..[quantitive easing]..
of credit and paper
that they 'invest'..in on paper/resources
..or take overs..[that dont add econominc value..

only increases monetry prices..and
eventually inflation...[devaluing ever more true-values]

by driving up the cost of fuel/food/resources
and other consumables and value assets..like gold/silver etc
let alone pay or savings

top/down
trickle/down affect..has failed hugely
its time govts saw..the sense in adding value..to cents

all of a sudden the poor..*got spending money..
they can consume ..can pay-off debt...
make the rich richer

ok the adding
of two..'00'[zero's]..was more fair
but could be phased in..after govts legislated
for it to be disbursed out again..in wages/govt pensions/grants...

[maybe there can even be
laws..against instuitutional hoarding]

or simply declare it overnight*

..[the trouble being those asked for advice..will be insider/trading..

but im relaxed..your the only money changer i know]

how hard could it be to force banks..and big business
to declare their holdings..[over night]..just like a oathed/bonded..stocktake..

and govt the next/day begins isusing
coin back out to the people...with an over-print
or reserected..*copper coin image..on nickle

[us collecters would see the sheer numbers
and realise they dont got collectable value and wont hoard,..at the new value][even the new coin

us investers will get/in..while the value is there
to spend the added value

boosting govt gst tax from business
reaping in the extra spend..as the poor find temporary wealth

with the one zero
the extra caution isnt needed

but with the double zero
super boosted qualitive easing..it becomes a must

paper values stay the same
international exchange/values unchanged
as they only exchange notes..and credit

the coin-age need not end
in fact the coinage...can save us

please offer disadvantages..
there are some

but its not my job to se-con-nd guess
what the greedy or needy do