Yep... according to our Marxist and Socialist 'brethren'.... Utopia is possible!

All we need is sufficient education, and (if you believe the Melbourne Socialist Alternative bod) enough "control" over all the affairs of the population...annnnd...*VOILA*... we are in the Millenium....or..perhaps not.

The problem with Communism is that it always boils down to individual wills...and this is most manifest in the story of an attempt by some Fabians to create just such a utopia in the USA.

READ ON.....and weep. -if you believe that 'socialism' will deliver utopia or even something vaquely resembling it)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Harmony,_Indiana

Robert Owen...a Welsh utopian thinker and social reformer.....

Questions: Does anyone seriously think that any kind of human political 'utopia' can be realized through laws and rules?

The group which vacated the land occupied by the owenites was owned by the original 'Harmony Society' which was modelled on the early Church as described in Acts 2:42 to end of chapter.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+2&version=NIV

It did actually 'fail'...but the reasons for the failure are not exactly damning to the idea of a Christian community being successful.
Reasons for the failure are found in this article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmony_Society#Rise_and_fall_of_Harmony_Society

My point is, that a Christ based community will succeed and thrive, whereas a secular one will not. (argue with me by all means :)

BATTERED BY ECONOMIC DOWNTURN, BUT ALIVE
Not that it is clear from this story, but Wilmington Ohio is emerging as just such a Christian society.....
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/22/60minutes/main4747832.shtml

ALGOREisRICH,:>> My point is, that a Christ based community will succeed and thrive, whereas a secular one will not. (argue with me by all means.)<<

I agree with you Al, since the decline of Christianity in the first world a generation ago social issues have abounded.

The jails are full; the classrooms are a mix of single parent, melded parent, or students with no parental guidance. The moral fabric that bound the community and stopped us preying on each other for fear of a power greater than that of those who come from a womb has gone. We are "god" and the Fabians agenda of social reformation via Political Correctness has done to the first world what sticks, arrows, and missiles could not do, divide us and conquer us, with our compliance.

Apart from being another opportunity for your own idiosyncratic version of Christian boosterism, I'm not sure what to make of this topic, Boaz.

"Utopia...is within our reach?"

Of course it isn't. One key reason for my certainty in saying this is that a "utopian" life has come to mean drastically different things to different people.

So, with that out of the way, what do we have?

A couple of references to the work of a Christian preacher called George Rapp, who tried to build successive communities based on his religious views.

That didn't work.

From which you allow yourself to deduce that:

>>a Christ based community will succeed and thrive, whereas a secular one will not<<

Given that Rapp's "Harmonites" believed in the second coming of Christ, and that none of his experiments was successful, the information to support this view would appear to be omitted from your post, Boaz.

But I'm still puzzled by the overall choice of topic, Boaz.

Are you a Utopian? Do you believe that a utopian community is a possibility? Will the government bail out Wilmington Ohio? Are DHL in league with the devil...?

I can't wait for the next exciting installment of this mystery play.

SOG...you agree ? :) I'm warmed and stunned at the same time.

But for your encouragement..... oooooh YES.... there is plenty to be encouraged about.

Wilmington Ohio..in case you've missed the various places I've made mention about this place... here is a recap.

POPULATION 12,000
EMPLOYMENT (2008) approx 6000 at DHL (the figure being bandied around is 8000, but I'm pruning it a bit because of some DHL workers from surrounding towns)

2009 DHL closes shop...... 8000 people (mostly from Wilmington) are out of a job.

The spiritual transformation of Wilmington is something to behold.
It's starting to sound like the 2nd evangelical awakening with people like Sugar Tree Ministries. over 30 churches are supporting it, and Ray the leader goes into the pantry each morning.. puts his hand on the shelves and prays.."Lord.. give us our daily bread".
This is remeniscent of George Muller the great carer and educator of Orphans.

It is said of him:

//Although he never asked any person (other than God) for anything, Müller asked those who did support his work to give a name and address in order that a receipt might be given. The receipts were printed with a request that the receipt be kept until the next annual report was issued, in order that the donor might confirm the amount reported with the amount given.//

If you want to be blessed :) read the whole article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_M%C3%BCller

Since a 60minutes program which outlined the dramatic economic hit for the small town, and the rise of such ministries as Sugar Tree, the Rachel Ray (cooking) program did a story on it, and provided a new kitchen! As the story spreads.. so lives and communities are transformed. And NO one is mentioning 'entitlements' :)

Something wonderful is happening in the USA... something most people won't see in the mainstream media.

Only God can change the self centered obsession of secularism and consumerism.

Dear Al,

"Something wonderful is happening in the USA...something most people won't see in the mainstream media."

The other night as I was skidding toward CNN to find some info on the Korean skirmish (which, at that time had been breaking news for a while) I stopped momentarily on Fox News. They weren't covering the breaking news but were doing a nice promotion about Sarah Palin and something to do with a version of Dancing with the Stars. I admit it's less depressing than Korean hostilities, but to me it was further confirmation that this non-mainstream media organisation is not about "news" at all - only the promotion of "their" side of politics.

i have seen glimses of utopia...here on earth
but here is not there..[and never will be]

we think of so-called xtians...[or buddists]..or mahamoudians...yet even there none are all equal*...mainly because we chose to walk divergebnt paths..each having our own path..to utopia

because we each have a differing vision of what utopia shall be

im tired of creating words...so will quote words instead
noting these words[from
http://new-birth.net/booklet/30_years_among_the_dead.PDF

are quoted by one formerly addicted to opium..[their idea of utopia is nothingness]...quite zen when we think of it...when the true utopia...has love of good...and love of neighbour at its core

quote

If people..would have more love..*for each other..and less condemnation..then..they would be more like brothers..and sisters.

That is the life in the higher realms.

We cannot reach..that stage..until we have gotten rid of all desires,..all hatred,..all selfishness,..all envy.

We cannot progress..until we have thrown away..all these things..and
said:..“God help me..*to love my enemies..and friends better than myself.”..Then we will be ready..to travel the road...{TO UTOPIA}..

Some people think..that after they learn..the lesson of truth..then..they will step into the glory of Heaven...But Heaven..is a condition....a state of mind...a way of thinking..then doing..good for other..

In conquering my desire..for morphine,..I had to do so..*little by little,..step by step,..until I could say:..“No more morphine for me.”

we are addicted to many things...many far worse than drugs

After I had conquered,..my selfish needs..my friends and relatives met me..and said:..“Now you are ready..to come with us to the home that has been prepared for you.”

Before that time..I had*..to live all by myself.

I was not in the dark dungeon of the lower realms..like some are,..but all around me was..*myself,..and nothing else.

I had to learn..and strive to overcome.

It says in the Big Book..that Christ went to the lower spheres to give help and teach...*We all..*..have to teach..*and help the fallen ones,..*and give them..*strength..to overcome their..self obsesing desires.

I wish I could take you along with me..for a few moments to see the conditions..in the lower sphere..what they call the earth-sphere...or astral realm

Here is the sphere..of whiskey,..here the..sphere of morphine,..here the sphere of the opium fiend,..here the sphere of selfishness,..and here..is the sphere of misers.

Of all these conditions..that of the miser*..is the worst.

He sacrifices everything..for money.
He will not eat..because he thinks he cannot afford it.
He starves his mind..because he wants money,..money,..and what is the result?

In the earth sphere..he is..*in the dark,..*but he sees his money being spent..and he is in hell....

anguising/languishing..He suffers terribly....
pays a dear price*..for his obsession

He sees his relatives..get his money;..it is divided,..some going here,..some there...If it were..*all in one place..he could count it over..and that would be all right.. but his relatives..all want their share..to spend.

Now imagine;..that money has been his treasure.
Each cent..that is spent..is like cutting a piece from his body, because his whole mind..and soul..*were..*in that money,..and to see it scattered..and spent..is hell for him.

Think what that means to him.

He cannot be helped..until he feels..that he no longer wants his money;..thenhis soul..or better nature will open up..and he will be helped.

He will be..*under the guidance of a teacher..and will be taught that money..*belongs to..the earth life,..not to the spirit utopia.

He then..*has to seek to do good.

A miser..never gets his money..*in the right way.
He may not be a thief,..but if he loans/money,..he charges too high a rate of interest...For every cent..he got in the wrong way,..he
has*..to do right.

He must*..do some kind act..and help poor people..in their work.

He has*to..lay down his past-life..and earn everything*..
before..he can*gain..*happiness in the spirit world.

He has*to serve..others[to the GOOD}..*first,
and..he must help*those..from*whom..he took money to..get it back.

You know..a “sin against the Holy Ghost..[as in that sustaining the life of the least..equal..that of the most]..cannot be forgiven.”

It must be atoned for.
That is his life..in the spirit world.

We have to look at..a murderer differently.
There are ten different..degrees of murder.
There is murder..by quick temper;..that is not real murder.
It is committed..under stress of strong quick temper.

At heart*..the man is not a murderer;..didnt love*...murder..in his heart..he simply lost control of his temper...allowing outside obsesion..to cloud his acts..

BUT he did take life...thus..Of course he has to suffer..and do good..where he did wrong.

Temper*..is a very hard thing to conquer..as this energy feeds demons

thus..it must be conquered,..because it allows a means that..kills our better nature..and makes us do many wrong..and unkind things.

Then we have the cunning murderer.
He plans and schemes;..he wants a man's money...

He is nice*..and sweet,..and goes to church.
He plans..and schemes..to get that man's life in some way or another, but..he does it slowly...He has evil thoughts...In the spirit world this/man..has to suffer*..a great deal,..

and must*.atone for his actions..*from the time he began to..plan and scheme to murder...till its FINAL fruits have realised their negative finalities..[often suffering for generations]

Then there is the psychic sensitive who does not care for anybody.
He doesn't belong..to one church or another;..he takes things easy.

What is not done today can be done
tomorrow..or the next day.

He does not use...*his will......is but..a mindless tool for others seking to do..*their vile...[

a disincarnate obsessive[spirit]..who often dont even realise their are..*DEAD...morte...passed on..[to the NOT-physical]

see how it gets complicated..?

A cunning spirit..gets into this man's
magnetic aura..and controls him...the result..*He commits some crime.

The man will hang for *his..deed,..but he never did it.

He will probably say..he does not know that he did anything.

Or he may say: “I must have been drunk..when I did it,..for I don't remember anything..about it.”[only in the next life can we know for sure]

But it was not*..liquor that did it...Liquor never does that.
When a man is drunk*..his mind..is in a stupor.[suspended]..isolated..opern for obsession by the true spirits

It is..a spirit that does the work.
If that spirit..has been wronged..*in life,..all he wants is revenge.

the smalest thought of vile allows him oppertuinity...[or an absent spirit..well to them its fair game]

The law does not really find out..whether the man
is guilty or not; he is hung....[and can become yet another obsessing spirit..[or forgive and move on

The majority of murders and hold-ups are committed by spirits.
They scheme and scheme,..and use mortals as tools,..until they wake up..and realize what wrong..*they have been doing...perpetuating

Often honesty..and modesty have both been killed.
When I was a child..I was very..modest,..but when I killed modesty,..I was ruined...Then I did not care for anything.

Honesty is a virtue we should all cultivate.
Judges, lawyers and ministers, in the..majority..of cases,..*do not give justice;.they look for gain/serve the crown..or the govt..or the high priesthoods of law.

They kill justice,..honesty and truth.

Let us..do all we can..to keep those three to the front.
Honesty and truth will..convert the world.

You cannot convert it by condemnation.
People are not taught the truth.

Have wisdom and human kindness
and you will see better results.

Teach wisdom and..let more of the Christ spirit be..*in every one.

Live as He taught;..do as He did,..then
and only then..
happiness will reign...[on earth as it does in utopia..[heaven]

Can't you live your utopia without annoying any one else.

cut previously..I had not been given
an understanding..of how to overcome..my desires?

I would have been an earthbound spirit..and would have gotten into some..sensitive person's magnetism,..and made that sensitive..*a morphine fiend..just so I could have/had..*my desire fulfilled,

and the life..of the sensitive..would have been ruined.
I would have lived..in the earth sphere..as an obsessing spirit..haunting the living..for years and years..if I had gotten into that condition.

I would have ruined..one and then another,
and so I would have kept on....[just as those lovers of wars destructions..continue haunting the living..with their reasons excuses to MAKE WAR..not seek peace.

Find out..what belongs..*to the soul
and what belongs*to..the body

If this were done..we would not have
so much trouble..and war..and crime,..nor so much sickness We would have Love,..and Heaven..*on earth,
because we would have pity for..the unfortunate ones
who are living..and haunting the living..just for their own desires.

It says in the Bible:..“Prove all things;..hold fast that which is good.”

That means,..do_not..have any desire..[obessive desire]..for anything.

If you use..too much of anything*..in this earth life,..such as morphine,..whiskey..or tobacco,oior war..violence..even sex..then you are a slave..to this..and must stop its use.

Many people..condemn many things..and that thought of condemnation..is very hard for..a sensitive person.

Everything on earth..is meant for us to use,..for teaching..but not misuse...nor abuse.

Many people condemn the destractions of..liquor,tobacco,morphine,opium,..but it is their misuse which
should be condemned....just as the missuse of limited funds to make war is abuse.

They are all necessary things..if they are used rightly.

Isn't an opiate..a good thing..if you must undergo an operation?
To be operated upon without an opiate would be wrong;..the suffering would be too great.

Opiates help ease pain.
but what of the opiate of war?

Many people..use these things..because they are forbidden.
They say:..“Forbidden fruit..tastes best.”

When things are forbidden..everybody wants them,
and they ruin themselves..simply in using them.

I lived in the lower world,..the underworld,
and I know..what I am talking about.

I took..anything to keep my nerves quiet.

Anything used moderately,..in a sensible way,non desrructive-way..is all right...When a man who works very hard,..either physically or mentally,..continued...*from..the war topic..

peace lies within
it means leaving when its time to leave

or staying when you want to stay
but lets continue..[finalise the quote]

..sits down to rest..when..he is nervous and fatigued...Give
him a good cigar..and let him relax.

His nervousness goes, and he becomes stronger.
It is a thorough relaxation;..he smokes and feels better.

With this complete relaxation..comes quietude;
the man sleeps..and is rested for his work the next day.

but not so war..or the media adgenda for today
who pump the smokers with guilt and ever more tax burden

till at last they..from the fear state..end up on the REAL drugs..forming REAL addictions..HIDING the real issues..we should fear

If people would have..more love for each other ..nd less condemnation they would be..more like brothers and sisters.

That is the life..in the higher realms.

We cannot reach that stage..until we have gotten rid of all desires, all hatred,..all..selfishness,..all fear..and all war..all envy.

We cannot progress..until we have thrown away
all these things and said:

“God help me to love my enemies
and friends...better than myself.”

Then we will be ready..to travel the road...to ever lasting peace

[yes the missing bit is at the war topic]
sorry about that..[i edited this to suit...*that..]

UOG,
Are you incapable of posting concise ideas rather than irrelavent, disjointed phrases from someone else which most do not have the time or inclination to read?

In a few brief ideas; What is Utopla for you? Is it achieveable?

C'mon Philo. Don't be such a curmudgeon.

>>Are you incapable of posting concise ideas rather than irrelavent, disjointed phrases from someone else which most do not have the time or inclination to read?<<

What's your problem?

OUG has been posting in this style forever. It's a form of stream-of-consciousness free verse, with a dash of quite sophisticated wordplay thrown in.

Not everyone has to write the way you do, you know. What a boring, pedestrian and... grey world that would be, eh?

phillo/quote..<<..Are you incapable of posting concise ideas..rather than irrelavent,..disjointed phrases..from someone_else>>

i can do this perfectly,..but why bother...*if..<<..most do not have the time..or inclination to read?>>

clearly..this encourages one..to say what one feels needs saying
with minimal waste-age..of effort..



<<In a few brief ideas;..What is Utopla for you?>>
im allready there..i have my bodily...material needs coverd adiquatly for my needs..[my income/means...match my needs and wants..just fine]

i dont owe anyone anything
yet still enjoy helping others

without casting dispersions upon those who abuse
if utopia is posable on earth then im allready here

even my labours..are easy...

i know who's quote to use to best affect
and by..minimul effort..manage to cover both

that i feel others need to hear
or that..i feel obliged to say

that being said..utopia is only possable in the true heavens
but as previously revealed others find their utopia in hell
utopia being summed up as i have previously espoused...in achieving the max..[humanly possable]...in the place we are..with minimul cost to oneself or karmic blowback

<<Is it achieveable?>>...not for everyone

most people want..*for one thing*..more..than they in rerality..*need
others want others..to read/do/think...*for them

neither works for long

but

as long as..we live within our means
and give unto others freely...and happliy
we have..*the possability/likelyhood..were allready..t-[here]..

and just havnt realised it...*yet

I think UOG is one of the best wrieters on this Forum and he has the right idea about us all Being ONE Under GOD. Also I went to Utopia a while back and I brought a wonderfull painting off an Aborigine lady there.

Are you godbotherers seriously saying life was "Utopia" under the clerical rule of the thousands of years before secularism? Do I have to point out the Crusades, inquisition, holy wars etc etc? You religious folk were the reason society decided secularism was the way forward.

Al your link about Wilmington Ohio made me laugh. All those being laid off by DHL clamoring for handouts(socialism) from the government and going about helping themselves with (once again socialistic) soup kitchens and local welfare schemes. Very funny. Not to mention the quakers references. A more socialist group you would be hard to find nowadays.

"It is not up to a new social system to solve all our problems; it merely has to deal with them better than the present system does - not a very big order."

HI Pericles. Yes my topic might have triggered some varied thoughts I'm sure.

I'm not a 'utopian' in the earthly sense, I don't believe even a Christian community will continue to thrive and succeed UNLESS...it maintains the freshness and simplicity of faith that even the Church of Ephesus appeared to have lost by the time Revelation was written.

//I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.
4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first.// (Rev 2)

Utopia comes and goes according to the level of spiritual energy (golly..I'm sounding frighteningly new agey eh :) present... the Biblical kind I mean.. the presense and fullness of the Holy Spirit in peoples hearts. I've lived it..experienced it... it's wonderful.

The problem with the Harmony Community was committed the cardinal sin...he PREDICTED when Christ would return...but that's never a good sign and .... people became dissillusioned with him for that reason.

The secular (socialist) version self destructed for different reasons.

The purpose of the topic is to explore the idea of earthly socialist utopia's as a "never to be fulfilled" dream of philosphically disabled elites. I only came across that 'Harmony' thingy a day or so ago...

OUG PUH-LEASE spare us your voluminous rants.. try to summarize into a few well constructed sentences... please...and not toooooo many per thread.

Poirot dear... the fact that Fox had something other than CNN breaking news is a tad subjective even for you :) They have covered it... repeatedly... I hereby consign you to a full weeks viewing of the Glenn Beck show :) 6.00pm and I think you'll find it quite uplifting this week specially.

mikk,
Could you please quote the dynamic sources of widespread cultural change in the 18th - 19th century in the Western world.

Philo wrote:

<< UOG,

Are you incapable of posting concise ideas rather than irrelavent, disjointed phrases from someone else which most do not have the time or inclination to read?

In a few brief ideas; What is Utopla for you? Is it achieveable? >>

This is a fair enough expression of frustration about OUG’s written expression. And it is good that Philo is trying to engage OUG rather than just be critical.

Pericles wrote:

<< OUG has been posting in this style forever. It's a form of stream-of-consciousness free verse, with a dash of quite sophisticated wordplay thrown in.

Not everyone has to write the way you do, you know. What a boring, pedestrian and... grey world that would be, eh? >>

A fair enough defence of OUG, but otherwise a bit unnecessarily nasty.

OUG wrote:

<< im allready there [in Utopia]..i have my bodily...material needs coverd adiquatly for my needs..[my income/means...match my needs and wants..just fine] >>

That’s wonderful OUG! Half your luck!

Huggins wrote:

<< Also I went to Utopia a while back…>>

Where is this Utopia Huggins?

My Utopia is right here in north Queensland, or in southwestern Australia where I spent the first half of my life, or some other beautiful place in this wonderful country.

But it’s not here at the moment. It’ll be here when we get our crazy brains around the absolute need to head smartly towards a paradigm of genuine sustainability, in which the population is moderate, the environment is healthy, the resource base is sufficient to provide all of our needs with plenty of room to spare, the quality of life is high and stress levels are low.

Nothing to do with religion. Everything to do with sensible governance.

But alas, at the moment we don’t have anything like sensible governance… and we are heading straight towards Dystopia.

ALGOREisRICH:>> SOG...you agree ? :) I'm warmed and stunned at the same time.<<

Al I believe in a creator, and even though we have disagreed on either the context or interpretation or practice of the teachings, hopefully we both strive to abide by the Ten Commandments. So I’m pleased you were warmed but I am surprised you were stunned.

mikk:>> ? Do I have to point out the Crusades, inquisition, holy wars etc etc? You religious folk were the reason society decided secularism was the way forward.<<

Mikk there is an old saying "if you want to hit a dog, you can always find a stick".

Re the comment regarding the Christian crusades and inquisition, let us surmise that the Europeans of the time did not have a religion. Do you think that those Europeans would not have been expanding and looking to "loot rape and pillage" the Semitic peoples, we had technology on our side, we were advanced in aggression.

European against European has gone on forever and it goes on today. It is not Christians you should be gunning for, it is the whites of this world. We have ruled it from the time we could travel to conquer the browns, the blacks, and the yellows, and we did.

luck..had nothing to do with it ludwig
anyone...with a basic grasp of histry...can figure things out

enron..[the most clever guys in the room]
most polititions are or were lawyers

see how bankers are in utopia
and capitilists..getting their bailouts

look at polititions...nearly on xmass holidays..TILL febuary
AND..gaining a lifetime pension..for serving only one term...lol

or look at your electicty bill..!

then look at those getting brand-new solars_cells on the roofs of those MORE CLEVER..[while the rest of us..pay for THEIR cash-back...and their back up power...and the grid...and they get free power..and free solarcells..[they certainly are..'in utopia'..lol

[yet they still get offpeak...and cash back..!

or the farmers..getting huge water-grants...
and now a buyback..its not their fault we are so dumb

life is what we make it...yes others might not like it
but hey they can allways get drunk and complain to others more dumb than they are...[its better than doing something to change things]

let others decide,..who gets the next..govt handout..or the next subsidy to build a tollroad..or a bypass..or a tunnel..or a new sportstadium..or grandprix..[at tax payer expence]

those of us who figured it all out..have earned our freelunch
because others thought it too hard to even think
[im being sarcastic]...lots of workers are on holidays till feb

the clever lawyers/teachers...too..not just our polies
heck many are in utopia...just look at the main intrest..on the web

things have never been beter..if your as clever as they are

one just neds to wonder
how do they sleep at night

Dear SOG.... I must have been under a mistaken impression that we disagreed on most things :) never mind.

Interesting bit of personal disclosure there about believing in God and the 10 commandments. If only we could spend some serious time discussing this. The position you express seems to fit into the following verses (please have a peek)

Romans 1:19 It follows on from a rather wrathful verse but the principle of our being aware of the Creator stands true.

I hope and pray that you could read on and follow Pauls argument all the way to at least Rom 8:1-4

Sadly, much of humanity has yet to discover the reality of "life in the Spirit" as mean't by Paul in those latter verses. That life is without doubt.. "utopian" even though it might not be a social Utopia in this world. (surrounded by carnality)

For MIKK..I have a better saying :) "A rebuke goes deeper into a wise man than a hundred blows into a fool" Prov 17:10

But SOG... this quite surprised me:

"It is not Christians you should be gunning for, it is the whites of this world." Surely you would concede that had certain battles gone the 'other' way...we (whites) would be speaking Arabic and praising Muhammad 5 times a day ? (Tours 732 Vienna 1684 i.e. 9/11-1684 )

The skin color did not give us victory, it was technology, numbers and skill. But whites are not a monolithic entity. We are many races.
You might find this of value though for background reading.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_Capitalism

Hi Ludwig, I'm actually trying to compare and contrast the idea of secular/progressive/socialist/communist "Utopia" with the real world.

Ludvig Utopia is a Aborigine community in NT but it doesnt sound much like what Bro ALGore is talking about.

I do so admire your one-eyed view of history, Boaz.

The virtue of looking through the narrow lens of your chosen religion, is that you miss - entirely and comprehensively - any subtleties, any light and shade, any gradations of intention or meaning.

This means that you can pontificate with absolute certainty that if it isn't black, then it damn well has to be white.

>>Surely you would concede that had certain battles gone the 'other' way...we (whites) would be speaking Arabic and praising Muhammad 5 times a day ?<<

Not necessarily.

One of the bitterest and messiest struggles of the nineteenth century was the Crimean war. We all know about Florence Nightingale, of course, and the Charge of the Light Brigade. But do you know who was fighting on which side?

Orlando Figes, in his book "Crimea: The Last Crusade" points out that:

"Anglican England and Roman Catholic France were aligned with Islam’s sultan-caliph against the tsars who saw themselves as the world’s last truly Christian emperors."

England and France, defending Islam? Goodness me.

"Above all, the western Christian powers were determined to avoid any reversal of the Muslim conquest of Istanbul: 'The Russians shall not have Constantinople' chorused an English music-hall song."

It all might be a little too nuanced for you Boaz.

"In the spring of 1854, as the Crimean fighting began in earnest, an Anglican cleric declared that Russian Orthodoxy was as 'impure, demoralising, and intolerant as popery itself'. What could be more natural, then, than to team up with Islam and popery to cleanse that terrible impurity? A French newspaper, meanwhile, gave warning that the Russians represented a special menace to all Catholics because 'they hope to convert us to their heresy'”.

I know, I know. It's all a little complicated, isn't it.

But tell me Boaz, what would have happened, in your yes-or-no, is-or-is not, fish-or-fowl view of history, if the Alliance had failed to hold Sevastopol, and those religious fanatics of the Russian Orthodox Church had prevailed?

HI Pericles :)

"It all might be a little too nuanced for you Boaz."

Not at all P, the Crimean was was as much about maintaining a delicate power balance where the posturing of France and England would have been pure and simple self interest based on a relative evaluation of cost/benefit/security calculation and just because the Brits and Franks supported the Sultan at 'that' time, does not mean they would have continued to do so. They would have been alert to where that involvement would lead them and how they might extrapolate themselves and reposition themselves for a better outcome later.

The Battles of Vienna and Tours were more pivotal I'm afraid. It's a matter of historical record, opinion and fact. (need sources? ur good at scrounging info :)

Agreed, Boaz.

>>the Crimean was was as much about maintaining a delicate power balance... and just because the Brits and Franks supported the Sultan at 'that' time, does not mean they would have continued to do so.<<

As indeed, they did not.

That wasn't the question I asked, though, was it?

I asked:

"what would have happened, in your yes-or-no, is-or-is not, fish-or-fowl view of history, if the Alliance had failed to hold Sevastopol, and those religious fanatics of the Russian Orthodox Church had prevailed?"

A different outcome would have been just as "pivotal", regardless of the motives of the participants, would it not.

For a comprehensive critical analysis of the Crimean War I recommend:

"Flashman at the Charge" by George MacDonald Fraser.

Dear Pericles.. apologies for not tweaking to the actual question.

I've done some reading on the Crimean war and this is how it seems to me.

1/ The War was very much about

a) Holy places in Palestine and the connections the Russians had with the Orthodox and the French had with the Catholics.

b) There was also the issue of Ottoman sovereignty in places like Wallacia etc.

If the British and French and Ottomans had lost, I envisage the following outcome.

1/ Vast reduction of Ottoman sovereignty and territory (a good thing)
2/ Increased Russian Orthodox influence in Palestine (holy Places).. (neither here nor there to me)
3/ Probable eventual conflict between the English/French and Russia.

I would not see such an outcome as being absolutely 'pivotal' historically in the way the battle of Vienna or the Battle of Tours were.

Your lack of focus on those 2 battles is most likely attributable to your lack of understanding of Political Islam. That's not a "Whack-a-Pericles" by the way, but you have said yourself you know very little about these things. But you ARE learning :) now you know about the reliability of Bukhari's hadith.

His method, by the way, was to trace each chain of transmitters in the packet of tradition, from different areas to ensure they all came back to the same originator. So.. a 'hadith' from Iraq must have the same chain of transmitters as the same hadith from Egypt.

A search of Bukhari for the hadith about Muhammad hacking off limbs and mutilating living prisoners gives the following results.

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/search.html type 'ukl' into the hadith search window to give the listings below.

001.004.234 Narrated Abu Qilaba:
005.059.505 Narrated Anas:
007.071.623 Narrated Anas bin Malik:
008.082.794 Narrated Anas:
008.082.796 Anas
008.082.797 Anas
009.083.037 Qilaba

They are various traditions of the same event. Each example has a different 'chain' but the originator is the man named.