Is there a “Nether World” of evil spirits? Are we humans subjected to evil influences from another realm outside our own physical world on Earth. Can the Hell mentioned in the Bible, the realm of outer darkness preserved for the eternal dwelling place of sinners, be that “Nether World” from where evil deeds on earth originate? Some believe it is! Where is the proof to such a theory?

diver dan

a strong proof of evil spirits at work is what humans do to each other. Whether it be incest, bestiality or habitual lying we see the works of the evil one. Guilt free baby killing is also strong proof of how wicked spirits deceive and lead people.

I am not trying to prod or provoke anyone.
But if evil exists it is in mankind.
If we open our eyes and look Church's, all of them, every God too, has harmed man.
The very idea of God is wonderful but show me just one that does not divide us.
We speak millions of words here about the subject but storys of true evil from within Church's will not go away.

Seems to me that every poster from the comments above doesn't believe in owning up to your own actions and being responsible for your own interaction with the world and everyone in it.

Belly blames God. Runner blames spirits. And Dan's a troll. No doubt a reincarnation of some other troll that we all roll our eyes at. Provide proof of spirits? You wouldn't have asked if you knew they could. Explain the origins to universe, with proof, not theory. You can't, but still, you demand irrefutable proof of someone else's beliefs. Hypocrite, much?

never mind outside influences. The choice is yours right hear right now. You can live heven or hell here on earth. Pity there seems to be so many wanting to live hell.

<<Is there a..“Nether World”..of evil spirits?>>
science says..there other di-mentions...so who knows

the holy texts say there is...so who knows

experience has taught..us..that artists..claim..in-spirastion..from dreams..etc
or that the idea...just formed..in their mind

swedenberg...says that we get..influx..from the..'other realms'
he has studied it scientificlly..[search for heaven and hell]...that gives a good overvieuw..o..how we get..IN-flux...'in-spiration'... "In_spired"..

from the good realms..[of good thoughts]
..and the dark-realms..for dark thought

<<Are we..subjected to..evil influences..from another realm/outside our own..physical world on Earth.>>.who can honestly..say...those doing the black-arts..must be getting something..'out-of it'...we hear of..good miracles..all the time

[like maddies story..google..madie stepanek..online..
[his story was broadcast,..only today..on worldover@ewb

or read..pages..37.47..that decribe..how it all..fits together
http://new-birth.net/booklet/Wanderer_a4.pdf

<<Can the Hell..mentioned in the Bible,>>and the quran..[ie the jinn]

<<the realm..of outer darkness..preserved for the eternal..dwelling_place>>
thats just the issue..ITS NOT ETERNAL

read gone west[the officer]..recall..god[good..loves a repentant sinner]

recall..jesus said..about casting out demons..that if they dont..'change'
then 7 demons return...[how many..sin..by being forgiven..every weekend]..

till we seek..to do better..we cant

<<sinners,...in..the “Nether World”..from where evil deeds..on earth originate?>>
no not ALL of them...REMEMBER..we must first open the mind..to them

we first think...a vile thought..that THEN allows hells..vile entry
had we not thought vile..they couldnt come in..

[we sent our bad thoughts into hell...first]

<<Where is the proof..to such a theory?>>

dont watch movies..read some books

http://new-birth.net/books_life_after_death.htm
http://www.divinetruth.info/naturallovepathdocuments.htm

i tried to summerise bits/pieces

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11183&page=0
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4008&page=0

but till we learn...yearn..to do better
or just to know,..better...its of little use
to..have simple reasoning..on..a complex issue

an ammasing...interviuew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK2mQJKwhFU&feature=player_embedded

its been said..children..shall lead us
thus..from the mouth of babes

[his inspiration..was three previous brothers/sisters..
who died..younger than he]

We need to stop.
Just stop.
Stop for a moment.

Before anybody
Says or does anything
That may hurt anyone else.

We need to be silent.
Just silent.
Silent for a moment.

Before we forever lose
The blessing of songs
That grow in our hearts.

We need to notice.
Just notice.
Notice for a moment.
Before the future slips away
Into ashes and dust of humility.

Stop, be silent,..and notice.
In so many ways,..we are the same.
Our differences are unique treasures.

We have, we are,..a mosaic of gifts
To nurture,..to offer,..to accept.
We need to be.

Just be.
Be for a moment.
Kind and gentle,..innocent and trusting,
Like children and lambs,

Never judging or vengeful
Like the judging and vengeful.

And now, let us pray,
Differently, yet together,

Before there is no earth, no life,
No chance for peace.

September 11, 2001
© Matthew Joseph Thaddeus Stepanek

Used with permission from Hope Through Heartsongs, Hyperion, 2002

We are getting into the realm of fairies here.

There are no evil spirits only evil people. Most people are good but not perfect...but true evil (lack of empathy/sociapathy/psychopath) is rare.

Humans are better than that even with their combination of flaws and imperfections.

Hell and heaven exist now? I always find it interesting how pious ppl managed to instill so much fear of God in them. Spirits? They only exist in your mind. If you believe in them, then you have a bigger change of having them in your life.

StG is right, everyone likes to play the blame game. Everything that has happened comes back to you. It is all in your head. The universe, you life, is what you make of it, not what you allow others to make it.

What's the saying. God lives within us...

I truly believe there is no such thing as evil spirits, evil fairies, evil Gods or devils.

There are only evil humans.

Anyone who believes that evil beings 'make us evil' is just kidding themselves.
There is no proof whatsoever.

from wanderor...<<In the spirit world,"said Ahrinziman,.."there are a great number of different schools of thought,..all containing..the great fundamental eternal truths of nature,..

but each differing..in many minor*..details,..and also..as to how these great truths..should be applied for the advancement..of the soul;

they likewise..differ as to how..their respective*.theories..will work out,..and the conclusions to be drawn..from the undoubted knowledge..they possess,..when it is applied..to subjects..upon which they have..no certain knowledge..

and..which are still with them..
as with those on earth,..the subject of speculation,.theory,..and discussion.

It is a mistake to suppose that/in the spirit world of our planet..there is any absolute knowledge..which can explain all the great mysteries of Creation,..the why..and wherefore of our being,..the existence of so much evil..mixed with the good,..or the..nature..of the soul..and how it comes from God.

"The waves of truth..are continually flowing from the great thought centers..of the Universe,..and are..*transmitted to earth..through chains of spirit intelligences,..but each spirit..*can only transmit such portions of truth,,as his development,..has enabled him to understand,

*and each mortal..can only receive as much knowledge..as his intellectual faculties..are able to assimilate..and comprehend.

"Neither spirits..nor mortals..can know everything,..and spirits can only give you...what are the teachings..which their own particular schools of thought..and advanced teachers give as..their explanations.

Beyond this..they cannot go,..for beyond this..they..do not themselves know;..there is..no more absolute certainty..in the spirit
world than on earth,..

and those who assert that they have..the true and..only explanation of these great mysteries..are giving you merely what they..have been taught..by more advanced spirits,

who,..with all due deference to them,..are no more entitled..to speak absolutely..than the most advanced teachers..of some other school.

I assert with knowledge..not my own,..
but from another...>>as do i

please...people
give sources..not opinion?

"Let men..and spirits,..then,..argue..*or explain,
they can only teach you..to the limits of..their own*knowledge
and..beyond that again..are limits none can reach.

How can any pretend to show you..the ultimate end..of that
which has no end,..or sound the great depths..of an infinite thought which..has no bottom?

Thought is as/eternal as life..and as fathomless.

Spirit is infinite..and all-pervading.
God is in all..and over and above all,..yet..none know his nature
nor..what manner of essence..he is of,..save that he is in everything..and everywhere.

The/mind of man..must pause on the very threshold..of his inquiries,..appalled by the sense of his own littleness,*..and the most...he can*do..is to learn humbly..and study cautiously,..that each step..be assured..*before he essays..yet..again to climb.

The most lofty,..the most daring minds..cannot grasp all at once,..and can man on earth hope..that all can be explained to him with..his limited range of vision,

when the..most_advanced/minds..in the spirit..world are ever being checked..in their explorations after truth..by the sense of their limited powers?"

this..of most advanced thought,..that it is,..in no way possible to give a final answer..to or explanation of..subjects..which are beyond the powers..of any spirit*..of our entire solar system to solve,

and still more..beyond/those..of the spirits..of our earth spheres.

In these subjects..and their explanation..are involved and required a
knowledge of..the limits of the universe itself..*which has no limits,*..

and..the nature of..that Supreme Being..of whom no man..or spirit..can know the nature,..save in so far as.we can grasp the great truth*..that he is Infinite*Spirit,..limitless..in all senses,..Unknowable..and Unknown.

My personal experience is of Bunderburg rum.

It is ok STG to put your own slant on what I say, I do sometimes not express my view properly.
But it is those acting in the name of God, any God I target.
The old testament is full of near hate for others, even us gentiles.
Can God be blamed for the miss deeds of the catholic church, no it again is the evil in his followers.
Jinny both denies spirits then warns belief in them can lead to trouble, quite true maybe but Christians are told they exist.
to Be non Christian STG is not a crime, I live by the wise laws in Christian holly books.
Like opening the back of a radio and looking at the diagram before starting the Bibles have real value , after all my belief is humans wrote it for that purpose.

So, Shadow minister;

Christians celebrate their God with the same spirit. I think it true to say, that same spirit has destroyed many lives, and from their destruction grew the ranks of many rich Lawyers.

Is that the work of Evil Spirits working through the Evils of Spirit?

our bodies,..are energy...and science claims
energy..cannot be created...nor destroyed

a living sperm...enters..a living egg..and the new life is began

the life energy..accumulates..other energies..and grows..till one day...dead...[much energy is stil there..{in the body}..but a few grams,..has become...other forms of energy...that we call spirit]

now spirit...needs a body...this next body..is called the astral/body
which contains our soul[body]...and the life spirit..that animates it...

and the astral/soul/spirit..in body..contains all the electrical energy..of our material body..[mind ego/id...thought/logic..reason..reasoning..

all the life forces...the dead flesh/body..no longer has

its not rocket science...god...breathed...into adam...life
life can only come from life...god/spirit...is this life

its not..an issue of faith...or belief..or hope..its simple fact
look at the dead person...its completly..there..EXCEPT..it has no life reaction/interactions..these..forces..{energy}..cannot be created..nor destroyed...

WHERE did they go?

initially they got to the astral plane[usually following a period..called darkness[during which our senses..adjust..to the new ways of seeing/hearing..etc]...ie direct.,.

but via the medium..of the astral body..[containing our soul body...and gods life spirit..[sustaining it all to live]

its easy..to poopoo..others thoughts...mindlessly...its not as if i presume without logic or reasoning...many..havnt botherd reading about this stuff..and have opiniond..like i believe

but here is a serious question
lets honour it with fact
not opinion

by all means challange that i call fact
just as i..will ask you..for EVIDENCE...too

we are all nice people here...we arnt likely to remain in the darkness[for very long]..but we must all pas tyhrough[what the bible calls the valley of fear..to get to our next life..[actually..its much more..like..hate..envey..averice..temptation...etc etc]

thing is..we all shall be born-AGAIN
its time we..all realised

we are eternal/living..spirits*..
having a mortal..life sentance...that forms the next body

and choses which realm..we are best suited to live..for the next...'life'...[thats sorted-out on the astral]..if not here/first

we all should be/knowing..there shall be at least two more...deaths..
and 3 more..births...

and that in*time...this rule applies..to all of us

some will progress faster...[but then..might regress]
others might progress slower..but

in the end..we all do..reach..
full..atonement..[at_one_meant]

pelican...QUOTE>><<There are no evil spirits..only evil people.>>

ok lets look at..this one first

given..that we know..for a fact..there ARE*..vile people
regardless of why..they chose to*be vile

take..[({*hitler*})]..[is this vile enough..?}..

(he)..has..*life energy*..[ego]..{vile desires..vile deeds}..etc

one second..([{*he*}])..was there...(living)..the next..he was dead

WHAT happend..to all that..'*life-force*"...making his..(body)..move?

all his..[mind/energy]..the..{ego}..
that thought this..(body)..to be hitler

that energy..{spirit}..went to the astral-realm..
in..*his*..[soul_body]

when...his further works..in the astral..'judged'..him
his soul-body..containing his spirit-body..containing his spirit
fell into the darkness of hell...

where he yet dwells..IN SPIRIT/'form'ss

<<true evil..(lack of empathy/sociapathy/psychopath)..is rare.>>

BUT WE KNOW..energy..cant be destroyed..!
thus..his..life force..
MUST BE SOMEWHERE

nairbe..QUOTE..<<influences.>>..look at this word
IN-fluences,,,[implying]..the..'fluence'..comes IN...

from whence..did it come..'in'..from..?

NAIRBE...<<The choice is yours..right hear right now.>>

YES...THE choice..
BETWEEN..THIS GOOD..inFLUENCE
OR THAT...NOT GOOD..in-FLUENCE

THE CHOICE..IS OURS..[IE..OUR MINDEST...choses]

[THE CHOiCES..WE HAVE made..IN THIS*LIFE..
DETERMINES..OUR NEXT INCARNATION..INTO..THE LIGHT..[heaven]..OR DARK..[hell]

<<You can live heaven..or hell..here on earth.>>

but sadly...its not alone..our choices..
but what we actually would have..chose
ie...wanted..to chose...
[there isnt any judge]...

if we chose good..or evil..god..still loves us the same
[yes ok..other spirits..might not forgive/forget..
but we like them...are then..immortal..and forgiven]

<<Pity there seems to be..so many wanting to live hell.>>

its not about pity...its about what..we chose..to do
[or chose..not to do]..could have done..but didnt
or secretly..wanted to do

I have always wondered OUG, are we condemned as killers if we have unwittingly exterminated cockroaches, mice, rats, flies, etc that are considered pests within the home environment? In all likelihood what do you think happens to us on judgement day or on the astral plane you have referred to?

we are unique../quote..<<..are we condemned..as killers if we have unwittingly exterminated cockroaches,mice,rats,flies,etc>>

so much depends on our intent...iedid we..deliberatly/perversly..make them suffer..[did we enjoy..their sufferage]

it boils down to why we did...what we did

i used to deliberatly..avoid walking on ants..[walked with my head down...looking to step...where they were not]..but since i bought my bicycle...i possably have occasioned mass murder...[but what is important..is the reasons...why...its important...im not doing it on purpose.not gaining joy from their suffering..but also not mindlessly killing]

its even more com[plicated..by the murder..of thousands of seeds..to make my daily bread[or the insects killed..so i can eat my vegies./.or the beast murderd..to eat my beef/bacon...

it can get complicated..
[i guess thats why we..properly..should pray..over our food]

but also..thats why we sort-out..this issue..
in the astral realm

<<what do you think..happens to us on judgement day..>.firstly...as such..there isnt..A..day of judgment...[only a period..of clarification..of our will..reaasons/purpose...and best destination..upon clear resolution

[i say period..because the time..of transition
takes various timmings,..[by our earthly measure]
jesus..took three earthdays..

[but in the next realm..there is only ongoing timelessness]...
ie events..are the measure of..the passage of time..there is only eternal day..or eternal night..or eternal dawn/twilight..depending on what parts of hell/heaven we reside in

<<or.on the astral plane>>..yes this is where the..'judgment'..rightfully occurs...but its niot judgment..its more of a temptation..that tests..wether we are best suited for which realm...

[many by pass it nearly instantly...[its a matter of concluding the doudfull issues..remaining..from our earthy lives]...jesus life was considerably more complicated..

and he also was needed to return...to prove the lie of..reserction-day...[its immediate..here now...next we are there...[all of us]..the sorting of the sheep/from the goats...tares..from the wheat..on the astral..plane..takes a bit longer...

Indeed DiverDan there are.

These days they are to be found in the Pentacostals and evangelical fundamentalists, as well as through every fibre of the Vatican and Canterbury.

Of course, xtains are not the soul source of evil spirits. There are plenty in all the Abrahamic faiths, the sources of most, but not all, of the worlds hot spots.

The refusal to take any responsibility for the crimes carried out under the banner of 'religion', all religions that is, is part of the problem.

In the Gulag Archipelago 1918-1956 Solzhenitsyn, an Orthodox Christian, denied evil as a separate entity.

"If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Judaism has a similar concept. There is a yetzer hara (evil inclination) and a yetzer hatov (good inclination) in every one of us. We are neither good nor bad. The normative opinion of Judaism is that the guilt for the sin of Adam died with him, and we are born with a clean slate. We can choose between cultivating the yetzer hara or the yetzer hatov.

Interesting how the human mind proceeds in a some-what ancient way of thinking and yet No evidence to prove that we are nothing more than electro-chemical beings.

The manifestations of the group micro world which from one cell to the becoming of the many, work in order to become the complex species we are, and that in its self can produce all kinds of beliefs and when we combine that the collective order of the micro working a one, Gods, Demons, The tooth-fairy, Ghosts, can and do become very real to those that force the collective in combination that with Evolution, the experiences or visions are as real as those who don't see what their talking about, or feeling.

I mean, I can make myself believe in lets say, a house-brick
( this house-brick is an ancient and old one with powers from the gods...rolly eyes. )

and I will

( and free-will being the key to it all ) get out of it what I make my brain think and "Will" to believe.

You all are only 10% human and the rest is billions of years of............well you know the rest.

But belief is very important to how the micro,s cells change the being for what is the great race to become what we are.

From little things, big things grow.

and that's what I believe.

BLUE

its..no use blaming..religeon..[alone]..religeon..is made up..from people..[and people..like spirits..come in all types..[good..and bad]

anyhow..continued from..here

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11183#188408

..the asttral-plane..extends..like a belt around each planet..and is,..formed..of the matter..which is too*fine..for reassertion..by the planet,..[but able to be..moulded into form..by spirit-thought/form]..even by animal..thought/desires..etc

and..is too coarse..to escape from..the attraction of..the..planet's mass..and pass into..the spheres of..the spirit world..to form either
matter..in the course of disintegration..or change...from one form..to another,

and it is only..the vitalizing-power..of such soul-magnetism..[animated..by gods spirit]..as it retains...or has retained..or desires to retain..form..which enables it..to cling together..in any shape..at all.

"In the case of..human astral-forms..which have possessed individualized life..as..a soul's-envelope..the..astral atoms have absorbed..a greater..or less degree of the soul's magnetism,..

or true life/essence,..according..as..the earthly existence..of the soul has been..good or evil,..elevated..or degraded,

and this soul/magnetism..animates it..for a longer..or shorter period,..and forms..a link between it..and the soul[which has animated it....]

this is important..as..our thoughts eminate magnmetism..especially in strong passions..[its this..that allows..the vile-spirits..to recieve our vile thoughts]..and connect


In..the case of..a soul..whose desires..are all for higher things,
the link is soon severed..and the astral/envelope..soon decays,

while..with a soul..of evil desires..the tie may last..for centuries
and chain the soul..to earth,..making it in fact..earth-bound....

which is..the fear of spirits..using this method..to communicate..to this realm..but this is all..la'la'la..cant hear you..to those who poopoo..the very egsistance..of further*..life..after death

so why bother...tying up my link..into the aether any longer
let people believe..as they will...for such is..freewill

...the good..need fear nothing...
for there is nothing...in reality..to fear

In some cases..the astral..of a soul...of very evil life
will have absorbed the..lower..or higher spheres particles.

Astral matter is practically..so much..of the soul's vitality
that after the soul itself..has sunk into the lowest sphere of all,..the empty shell will still float..about the earth
like a fading image of..its departed owner.

They have no intelligence..of their own,..since the soul/has fled

These astrals,..however,..are only capable..of being made use of..upon the astral plane.

certainly these figments..can only affect those..who believe...in such stuff..

and..that do..the wrong*..things..to others

i agree..with davids concept
we each have good..and..evil

jesus said as much when he wrote in the dust
[the law..thou shalt not murder]
when he spake the words..
let thee without sin..cast the first stone...[none are without sin]

we can only judge ourselves

anyhow lets finish..this off
in lue of questions..or proof

continue quote from the link

..although..I should not care..to descend to/clothe myself..in this astral form,..yet a spirit..more ignorant than myself..could easily do so..in order to make..himself felt..and seen upon the earth..

in a more palpable form..than possible..to any spirit
who has left..the/earth plane;

but..in doing so..he would run a danger..
of creating a link between himself
and the astral-envelope..not easily broken,..
and which..might thus tie him
to the astral plane..for a considerable time.

You/will,..therefore,..see how the idea..has arisen that men on earth,..in seeking to see..their departed friends,..draw/..the spirits back*into..earthly conditions..and thus..do*them harm.

Many an ignorant spirit..who is good..and pure/himself,..has committed the mistake of relating himself..in one*of these*..fresh astral-shells..

when he would have turned away from those..
which he knew..to have been left..by another spirit,

and has found..to his cost/..that he has thereby
made of himself..a prisoner in it..upon the earth plane,

till a higher intelligence comes to his aid..
and releases him.

continues at

http://new-birth.net/booklet/Wanderer_a4.pdf

but..gone west..says..the hell issues..better

One under God:
Christian doctrine is very clear when dealing with the spirit world. For example the doctrine of the “Trilogy”, put simply, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. We are exalted in the Bible to witness God in nature, in the animals that dwell on earth and in the sky. That is God the Father.
Christian teaching goes on to say God the Son is witnessed in the historic event of approximately two thousand years ago at the birth of Christ and his short life on earth. That event is portrayed as a visit to earth by God himself in the form of Christ his only Son. This is the point of separation in belief of Islam and Judaism, (and any other category of non-believer). The final complexity of Christianity is the concept of “God the Holy Spirit”. The Holy Spirit roams the earth and prompts all inclination towards good deeds in Humans.
Unfortunately for Human kind on earth, during the period of creation a great spiritual event occurred in Heaven, a rebellion of Angles against the supremacy and omnipotence of God himself. Naturally God won that round, but in so doing the bad Angle was cast out from Heaven and confined in exile on earth where he now deals the upper hand for the time being, until God likewise deals with him in the appointed time.
So it is very clear from the Christian doctrine and teachings that Evil roams earth in a spiritual form or the spiritual influence of the Devil (the fallen Angel) and is opposed by the influence for righteousness (good) in the form of the Holy Spirit. So for true Christians believer, the spirit of Evil is very much alive and well for the moment.
Is there any dispute on the above analogy of Christianity and its adherence to belief in the spiritual influences of good over evil?

diver..jesus isnt..god..[see me see my father]..meaning god is love
[that ye see me do the father does for all of us]

jesus was to be called...emmanuel..
[god with-{in}.us..{all}]..sustaining..even jesus..his life

ditto satan..judas...the leasdt who yet is greater than the most
[god is the least...sustaining even the most vile..their live[from within]..thaty we do to the least..we thus do to him

no trinity..we can know good[god]..one to one
not one to three...thats just creed spin

jesus is the..stone{rejected]..upon which his church is built
not peter..not paul..[saul]..

jesus/son..god/father

<<bad Angle/cast out from Heaven>>.is a thing that didnt happen
[god didnt cast out no-one]..how could he..he is in him..sustaining his life too

<<God likewise deals..with him in the appointed time.>>
thats just creed..[deciete]..how can god deal with himself
as he must to judge anyone...he is sustaining all of us our lives

<<Evil roams earth..in a spiritual form
or the spiritual influence of the Devil..(the fallen Angel)>>

there is the sillyness

sdatan didnt do the evil
we did...[ok there is a joinder..[conjunction..of evil with evil]
with..us needing to think evil...FIRST

but thats simply vile..claiming its own

there is no opposite to god..[good]
just as real..has no opposite..[lie]..because good is the only truth
evil is a lie..thuis not good thus not in the end true

its convoluted...but only good..[god]..is real

<<Is there..any dispute on/its adherence..to belief in the spiritual influences..of good over evil?>>..yes

its inverted...good..has no influence over evil
just as evil..can have no influence over true good

never the twain should meet
especially in the after life

you cant be mostly good
one speck of vile and its not good
one dash of leaven..leavens the whole batch

we chose to try to be good..try to do as we seen jesus do

he didnt judge..leper..nor money changer..
only drove them from the church...where righfully only good..of god..SHOULD be done

but sadly isnt

Is there a netherworld? of evil spirits.... YES.. absolutely.

I can only conclude that an otherwise rational (supposedly) non muslim man in Tower Hamlets Council would suggest as found in this article as a result of some kind of demonic influence.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&pagename=Zone-English-News/NWELayout&cid=1219960891327

diver dan wrote: "This is the point of separation in belief of Islam and Judaism, (and any other category of non-believer)."

The above is outright bigotry. People who believe something other than what you believe are not non-believers. There is such a thing as a non-believer. However, Muslims and Jews are believers. They just don't believe the mumbojumbo you believe.

Dear ALGOREisRICH,

When I was in the army I would volunteer to take guard duty, kitchen police or other tasks on Christmas and Easter to enable a Christian soldier to be free on those dates. It wasn't demonic influence. It was showing friendship to those who didn't believe as I did. The non muslim man in Tower Hamlets Council was doing the same thing. You seem to be a mean man.

And, the human species have existed for how long. When did religion come into the picture? How do you think the homo-sapiens lived before religion? All these religious books have their good and bad. I studied most of them growing up, went to Catholic church, Presbyterian, studied Hinduism, Buddhism, and found out that the Quran had a lot of similarities to the bible. Certain stories were exactly the same, wt different names. Same lesson.

Belly, why don't you do more scientifically proven research on god and the brain, and then come back and preach about your believes. Sorry, I'm not trying to insult you, just think that there is a lot out there that you haven't found out yet.

I didn't say I didn't believe in spirits. I said they existed in peoples mind. We create the world we want to live in, we choose what we want to believe in, and we need to learn how to respect others for what they choose to believe in for whatever reasons they have.

Evil is created. By sickness(usually mental), ignorance, and the evolution of this society we live in. Can you honestly tell me a baby was born Evil? No, we were all born pure spirited. It is because of the influence we have in our lives, that make us do wrong. How ever evil a person is, there is good, they are just misunderstood and damaged

btw.... who is Deep-Blue(aka DEEP)? I see you joined today and like your comments very much. I hope you stay and share.

yes..what david said...

When people don’t deal properly..with the hurts..they receive from others/in life,..by forgiving them fully,..their..spirit-body are able to be opened up..to acces by vile...called for convenience..;..demons.

Spirits..feeding off energies..our bodies emit..when we obsess
about small things like..resentment,..rejection,..anger,.hatred..and bitterness..

when/we presume..when we feel others..have wronged us,..
thus are very common..amongst people who have been dealt hard..and hurtful blows..by others...[or that they generalise as..'life']

Trustfull/faithfull/believers..who have been hurt..by pastors/cantors/rabbies..or spiritual..or..materaial..leaders..[ie followers of creeds].are especially vulnerable.

If this applies to you,..for your own sake,..forgive them,..
and avoid speaking..or even thinking..evil of them..and
especially planning revenge..or injury..upon them.

Otherwise..you will go on suffering needlessly...BY..Not dealing..with the hurt correctly could mean..you do more damage..[your angry/hurt..thoughts..turn into obsession..this emits energy..attracting demon's..who feed off..this form of..destructive energy

Demons..cannot..just enter people..any time they want to.

They need..a legal opening..invitation..to do so.

your thinking..bad thoughts..is their invitation
[they claim..by your thoughts..your..their*..own..[one of them]..

Knowledge..of the things..that open the door..to demons
will also give us..the knowledge..of how to keep..the door shut on them.

Sins..of Commission

"Do you not know..that..to whom..you present yourselves..as slaves
to obey,..you are..that one's slaves..whom you obey, whether of sin..
leading to death..or of blind..obedience..leading to self-righteousness?"
(Romans..6:16).

Jesus..answered them,.."Most assuredly,..I say to you,
whoever commits sin..is a slave of sin."..(John..8:34).

When people yield..to particular sins..often enough..
even at the level of mental acceptance..demons..can*

..enter them.

Actually,..even one..deliberate sin..can..open the door..for a demon to enter.

It does not..always happen,..but it can,..especially
where repentance..does not happen..quickly.

When a person..is doing..a sin..that they hate..and resent,..
it is no longer freedom..it is slavery...
Yielding to sin..always costs more..than it possably can give.

You may have done it freely..the first time,
but..you can't stop doing it..freely...once you have sold your soul

Demons drive..and compel people..towards..the same evil/..things...
this is why the teachings ...of the many holy texts are worth-while..

One of the areas..where many people are most conscious of this..
is in the area of sexual lust...[especially demeaning..or animalistic..perversions.
loose morals..or love of the perverse..destructive..or danger/thril..for danger sake.

People..may also feel compelled to lie,..cheat,..steal..
or think blasphemous thoughts...of others or themself...

inner..negative voices..are but a sign..
to avoid this..destructive action...immediatly.

It is by the work of the believer..to develop trust..[not judgment]

that all such bondages..can be broken,..and deliverance..from demons..
is made possible..by the victory..Jesus achieved...simply by showing..[doing/being]..
the embodyment..of forginess..[and love of neighbour]..

where love is..there...is good..[god].

There is..the law of..sowing and reaping,
which states..that.."whatever a man sows,..this..he will also reap".

Demons work..to make sure people reap..the negative things..*they have sown.
If we sow deception,..we will be deceived...If we sow hatred,..we will reap it.

"Those who live..by the sword..perish by the sword".
For this reason alone..we would do well..to avoid sin.

Only Jesus/living/loving..egsample...achieved..by our simular works
can free us..from sin's chains,..free-us eternally..from
any percieved obligation..power of/will-to..sin.

Once his egsample..frees us,..we do well..to give ourselves..to Him
completely..[by doing unto others he did for us..so we can enjoy Him
fully..and stay out of..further bondage..to evil...
by..freeing others..as he did us...by love of good works.

To the extent..we compromise..with evil/hurt/injury/victimisation
of other..we become..the slaves..of it...and earn..its karma.

Sins..of Omission

God..said to Cain,.."If you do well,..will you not be accepted?
And if you..do not do well,..sin..lies at the door...And its desire
is for you,..but you should rule..over it."..(Genesis 4:7).

Here.."sin" is portrayed as..a personality
with the desire..to rule over us...

[This speaks of demonic..em-power-ments..we accord them..*over us...
by simple..negative thinking..or act...or destructive..or selfish..work/deed

Sins of omission..are the main-means..that demons
get into..or back...continues..

Belief in spirit beings is based in pagan polytheistic superstition associated with disease and causes of mental disturbances, death etc. We now recognise this as bacteria and natural causes. The only spirits we need to confront is the evil human spirit. The ancients believed that ideas were transmitted by spirits, wether good or evil.

Christ came to remove the superstitious belief of spirits that holds people in bondgage of fear.

For people who believe in spirits they believe they are real; and authorative casting out has assisted the sufferer to believe they are permanently removed. However such exorcism superstition today in Western society does more harm than healing. We have professional psychatric counsellors well able to identify causes of mentally disturbed individuals.

You’ve gotta be kidding me, Philo.

<<Christ came to remove the superstitious belief of spirits that holds people in bondgage of fear.>>

On the contrary, the alleged Jesus (if he did indeed exist) perpetuated myths about spirits...

“Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.” (Matthew 10:8)

Jesus could have provided valuable medical information that couldn’t have been known in those days and thus showing himself to be a god. But did he? No, instead he blamed epilepsy on demons...

“When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. “Lord, have mercy on my son,” he said. “He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him.” “You unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me.” Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed at that moment.” (Matthew 17:14-18)

Instead of helping mankind to progress by providing us with valuable knowledge, Jesus condemned us to centuries of bloodshed and barbarianism with his deliberate, careless and irresponsible perpetuating of superstition.

Unless, of course, you look at the situation rationally and simply conclude that he was a made-up figure of those times.

I must confess, what prompted me to begin a thread based on the vagaries of the spirit world was OLO’s most avid poster on the subject “One Under God”. Maybe I am alone in wondering what motivations prompt a fellow human to attempt to convince a world of disbelievers of the urgency to accept a personal philosophy loosely based on a mix of religion and philosophy. Intriguing as that is, I have been left to wonder in times past, and during periods of continuous bad luck, if we are not in fact “picked off” and stalked by the Devil himself for none other reason than for his own amusement.
My references to Christianity above are used to draw on its rich source of references to the world of spirits and the spiritual; it is self-defeating and too confining using Christianity as the only base of reference to explain the inexplicable happenings of bad luck that plague us all on occasions, but when raised and educated as a Christian I am confidently acquainted with its teachings to use them as examples from “near-by”.
So may we swing on the presumption that our bad luck is not all of our own making and the responsibility for the three speeding tickets in two weeks is not entirely ours to bear but simply the “cross we must bear” patiently while we await a change of fortune or for the Devil to move on? That is the question

btw.... who is Deep-Blue(aka DEEP)? I see you joined today and like your comments very much. I hope you stay and share.
Posted by jinny, Monday, 8 November 2010 4:54:49 PM

Jinny.........it would be my sharing gift.

BLUE

Thanks Diver_Dan and One Under God for the wonderful thread! Never wish to see a creature in pain or suffering, just killed some mice and cockroaches during a plague years ago and felt sad and regretful afterwards. Spiders I place outside on a mop. Snakes I allow to slither away.

Ah! .. The cop out. The devil made me do it ...

We must take responsibility for our own actions.

Adam's excuse: "The woman made me do it ..." original sin and all that. Poor Eve ...

The writings in the Bible - the Christian Old Testament - are descriptive; not prescriptive.

Jinny. I have read your story, with mixed thoughts, but I see you as a strong female with cause.

Truth Jinny..........I sit here with what I see as real as one can get. How others think, I cant and wont be held responsible for, since all I have is my own mind. I see it as the great( Spirits of the ) part of the central part as asked in your questions as to why and where all it began, as a more of the mind development of evolution as explained by the many.

If Iam well and true, then all that's going on must be unreal? But like a great movie, not all is as, and never will be.

And Iam fine with all that's as well as can be.

Jinny! For these people who are what, a still moving world can only make it interesting in the real sence, rather than the land of the dreams.

But live and let live. That, if I can use it, is the spirit of man, and some.

All is understood, when all is reached, depending on your love and great mind-set.

This link might help you see my side of the..........I do not believe.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CB8QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DFsi1lUiN4g0&rct=j&q=Those%20who%20dismiss%20all%20facts%20about%20ghosts.%20youtube.%20scientific%20fact&ei=_PPXTMTeBIbovQONosWcCQ&usg=AFQjCNFBp4CweSO9XwVtGsOErH3OAbIoqQ&cad=rja

And I'll put one in just for fun.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CCMQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DbOcN10fT5Ds&rct=j&q=Those%20who%20dismiss%20all%20facts%20about%20ghosts.%20youtube.%20scientific%20fact&ei=_PPXTMTeBIbovQONosWcCQ&usg=AFQjCNGPdjiOJ5kAbybdfbHhdI_4W5hO6Q&cad=rja

All of what all think life is, I will say truly and say, I don't know.

But I feel it.

Thats the best I've got at this time.

There is one gentleman that has spent his whole life looking at all aspects of this questionable understanding of energy that is left over after death, and has found zero in all of his fifty years of research.

I just cant find it ( The link ). but his word is good, but not conclusive.

I would like to see a ghost.

Just for science reasons.

And maybe mine.

BLUE

i find it a bit ummm.. entertaining/interesting, that most of the posters here questions the Christian GOD and that other religions belief hardly come into the discussion except when it comes to bad- mouthing them. As for UOG, I have already tried, the rest is up to you and your own brain.

I can't remember where I read somewhere in this forum. But a certain being expressed about how he/she did not agree on Islams migrating here. That, i honestly had a laugh about. I've hoping that maybe I am wrong. Maybe he/she was originally from this land. Not the convicts from England and Europe that were banished here after this continent got discovered by westerners.

And somehow.. most of you think, you have some kinda right to decide who can live on this land and who can't, thanks to the laws of this countries, and the media of course. Who owned this land? did it belong to you? will it ever belong to you, or are you just lying to yourself that it belongs to you and you have the rights to decide who else uses it.

Thank you DEEP.

I had a brief look through the 2 link u shared. The first one(only watched halfway) is about spirits. In my opinion, spirits do exist. I believe in reincarnation. I have seen when close family/friends pass. Some thing else comes into my life in another form. Life ends in one way, but it never really does.. physically yes.. but not mentally and emotionally.

It's hard to trust videos. They play tricks on our mind.

The second one... I agree and disagree. We have been brought up to base our knowledge on maths.. That is what has been taught to us. So for what we now now, it should be 2+2=4.. simple maths. Yes, we can always choose to twist every around, simply because our mind likes playing tricks. btw, you wont see a ghost, because you know better and you don't believe in them. Besides, so what if you see a ghost?

Our life is an illusion. We can live it as it is, in reality, or we can choose to not accept it, and live in our own heads(which most people do). Sad to see, but not much we can do about it as of now.

tbc'ed

JINNY.

"Besides, so what if you see a ghost?"

Well since no ghost has never been recorded harming the living, I guess the experience will open my eyes to the point of what all religions are based upon.
Now if ghosts exist, I would like to ask OUG or Runner why they are not in the two biblical destinations described by the bible.

I am not surprised that a great many people go to extraordinary lengths to convince all.

Anyway, I do have one story I cant explain. My partner and I called into an old 17 to 18 century country grave site, and its your typical run down type for the dead spot, and after walking around for an hour or so, time was pressing and back to the car we went.

So far, no big deal..... until I tried to re-start the car, then the starter motor failed. Right! again.....No big deal, this type of thing happens all the time....so I went across the road to a farmers house and asked him if he could tow my car up to his property while I went to the wreckers for a replacement.

Well this guy started to have a little chuckle to him self and I asked what was so funny, and he replied....." your number 465! I said' what do you mean?

And he said clearly, YOU ARE THE 465 person I have towed out of that graveyard since my family and I move here ten years ago.

Now that Jinny, in my books, that is beyond the realms of coincidence, and he went on to say that most of the cars started up once the car was removed.

And yes, after I pull the starter out and tested it, there was nothing wrong with it.

So not all is explainable.

BLUE

into..the faithfull...loyal servant..of good

We are..supposed to be..filled with..the_Holy_Spirit
as much as possible,..and to seek the good-
living/loving..gracefull/mercyfull..face of..God.

We are..supposed to be..devoted
to prayer..by works..[good_fruits]

However much..we may seek to avoid..this logic,
when..we are not doing this,..we are living..contrary..to the will of God.

And..Satanic-demons..knows it....as our thought-energies..cannot decieve..those knowing..their own..
by their mindless-emissions..of hate/fear..averice/greed..love of vile..etc

Demons..return to..empty vessels*.
where love is..no vile can enter..

The demon says,.."I will return to my house..[body/mind..person/slave]..
from which I came...And when he comes,..he finds it empty,..swept..and put in order...

[such is forgivness..without repenting acts..]
as jesus revealed..it is thy faith..that has healed..you

Then he goes return..and takes..with him..seven other spirits
more wicked than himself,..and they enter..and dwell there;
and the last state..of that man..is worse than..the first."
(Matthew..12:44,45).

if only we could..realise..
forgivness..NEEDS a forgiving heart..And mind..and works

Demons..can only..get back in..
when we are not doing..what we are..supposed to be doing.

Paul said,.."Nor give place to..the d-evil."..(Ephesians.4:27).

We give place to..the {d}evil..when we fail to give to God
the GOOD's..that truly belongs..to Him,..in terms of our praise,..by works
by..our love..and our adoration...to bring gods..good back..to all his creation

If you have done this,..be sure that God..[good]..is well able to deliver you,
but it will be..when in your heart..you truly return to the Lord..that he gives us
all..[good/love/grace/mercy..life..logic/light/reasoning]..
as being..the number one..passion of your life...

Sudden shocks,..traumas..and crises

These..can open the door..for demons to get in..for example,..a sudden shock might open the door..for a demon feeding off..fear..to enter a young child....if he visualises..the negative imagry..the media..is so good at feeding into..the youth/of today..

That demon..may have a stronghold..for years afterwards,..producing irrational..fears in a person..at odd moments....and by odd passions..or perverse nature..[self injury..or love of injury to others.]

Once we are aware of this,..we will be more prudent..about the kinds of things..we let our young children watch,..[without explaining them..as to what they are..and the dangers..they can realise]..

and we will also...need to learn them..the importance of praising God..
by love of good unto all..[and fearing no evil...being the love]..
instead of..going to pieces..when the storms of life strike.

Rituals of..religions..and societie

These can open the door..for demons..to get*,into people..
the bible says..do not take oath..[matt..5;33-48..7;1..23;16-28..james/5;12..8-20..4;10-12/2;4-10..3;1-18]..for good reason..

demons..will later work..to blind them..
to the true gospel{good}....of works/..of love of other.

Therefore,..in seeking light..from the Holy Spirit..concerning a particular need for deliverance,..be it in your own life..or someone else's,..be aware of*this..possibility.

Many forms.of modern entertainment..open people..to demonic invasion...and other..negative judgmental fears..that sepperate us from good

Much..in the film,..television and music industries
often..is inspired by satanists..[just note their imagry]..and opens people up..to satanic or worldly philosophy..and the in-fluence of demons.

Pornography,..occultic role-playing games..or devices to supposedly
communicate with the dead..or tell fortunes..all
can open people up..to demon...in-spiration's.

These days..the majority of films and television
shows rated PG or above have elements..which glorify evil,murder..mayhem
promote lust,..or inspire fear...Many video games,..besides being a huge waste of time, have violent themes..which at worst can inspire violent attitudes..and behavior in people

Chief Activities..of Demons

1...They tempt people to sin,[or simply..be aware*of sin..;its a fine line]..by putting various kinds of..[im-a-gin-ing's]..imagiry..imagi/nations.into..the minds
of men and women..and speaking words of deceit..(Genesis 3:1-6)...

Satan..even tempted Jesus,..and Jesus revealed to us..the way to
overcome temptation..by using the World of Good..(see Matthew..4:1-10).

2...They deceive..(2 Corinthians 11:14)...They especially lie..about God..{good},blaming..all the evil on God...Many religious leaders..are deceived by Satanists/thought..guilt.

As long as..we remain deceived..on some important point,..
demons have*something..they can work with...that
They can return to..like rats..return to rubbish.

3...They hurt..and torment..through sickness..(Acts 10:38),
death,..breakdown of human relationships..leading to strife,war..and violence.

4...They threaten..overtly[loud-noises..flashing lights..(trusting to be..inducing fear)(2 Timothy 1.7)...They suggest all kinds of negative scenarios..in order to create anxiety and fear.

Many fears of people today..are unreasonable
and are the direct result of demonic suggestion...
via media..or rumours..[..lies..pr-spin..ridicule]

5...They dominate,..or enslave.(2.Timothy 2:26).
Satanists..seeks to recruit slaves..through the power/of..and beliefs..in materialism..and faux spiritualism..witchcraft..supra-natural..spectorals..and other forms..of creed based idiology..and paternalistic-peer controled..belief/disbelief systems..incuding..religion.

or gives power..or money..or sexual pleasures..for entertaintmeant..
in exchange for various forms of worship..loyaty..and obedience.

But Satanists..always double-crosses their slaves/servants,
so they too become victims of..this hate/fear...or even rejection

Jesus said,..“What will it profit a man..if he gains
the whole world,..and..

if he gains
the whole world,..and loses his soul?”.(Mark 8:36)

6...They accuse Good-people..so that they have reduced effectiveness
in their prayers[works]..and their relationship with Good.

7...They harrass..through repeated/colluded/deliberated..attacks
on mind,..emotions,..body-type..or sex..as well as the state of their,
finances..or through inspiring persecutors..to make life hard for/those doing the right thing.[cor..4;1-21..5;1-13..6;11]

8...They glorify themselves..through witchcraft,ritual/creed..in lue of egsample/works false..religion..and other tools..like the occult..and much of today’s..popular rock-and-roll,..rap..doof/duff..trance..and metal music...

Fear,..hate..and pride are the major motivations
in Satanist's...dark realms.laughingly called a kingdumb.

When you see these..characteristics..in a person,..
[your not seeing the good..sustaining..the living..of
this being..but..being..by gods[good]..will*..alone..[all-one]

you are looking at someone who has yielded..to the conspirations
leading us all..to evil inspired..of spirits,..whether they[or we]..know it or not.

Jesus said that..the thief comes to steal,..kill..and destroy.
If you make friends with spirits..committed to your destruction,..you are a fool.
(John..10:10).

God loves us,{loves ALL of US]..and doesn't want us
to have fellowship with demons..who decieve only themselves
(see..1 Corinthians..10:20).

For that reason,..we must honour/respect..that good..reflected..off God
and not give..that place..in our hearts to the various idols..in our material-culture.

We see these things,..especially divination/criminalisation..victimisation/oppression/per_version..,..
in the various..and many blurbs/blogs/magazines/news?pepp-ers.. and personal
commentary-columns..of the mass media...and specificly the pay-for vieuw/public free-to-air

Occultism is promoted..through the film...and other media enter-taintymeant-industries
though talk-back..and even/through the New Age..environment..and self realisation-movement's.

Postmodernism..relativistic philosophies,
openness to everything..except God's good/living love

and rewriting..the rules of thinking..though/creation and death/after life
are coming in..through the intellectual..and cultural movement's..of personalised
opinion pieces..of post-modernism...or science masked as athiestic alternatives

It basically says..concerning all things,
"Its all about you."..its an accident...you will live..then die
That's a lie.

Its all about God,..[the living loving_good]
..inherant..[seen]..see-able..in all*..living..actually.

Unbelief,..fear..and depression..are all powerfully
at work in..all aspects..of western/eastern..
[heck..all..levels of]..society..today.

The only antidote..to these is..GOOD...of God Himself.

AJ Philips,
No where in the Hebrew of the Old Testament scriptures is demons as spirit beings taught. Jesus taught from the Hebrew texts of the OT. Unfortunately the culture of New Testament times was deeply influenced by polytheistic views from Persian, Greek and Roman ideas; all these cultures had occupied the Jewish territory.

The non Sadducean Jewish people believed in evil spirits and Jesus taught among these Jews whose culture was influenced from international thought.

It is pointless to tell people there are no such things as demons who believe very deeply they do exist. However a culture that is based in such can only be confronted by eradication of the supposed powers. The ultimate purpose of such eradication - is there are no demons in control. Jesus did not believe in demons as beings, only evil men; it was the culture of his time that he confronted to cast out evil spirits. Such a practise was used by the Sadducean Jews to cast out demons [evil spirits]. He did not originate the practise it was first used by the Sadducees as the NT identifies.

Spirit in the NT is linked to breath [pneuma] and linked to the persons motive in speach and action. In other words - motive is the power of words and actions. "What is the motive?" "What is the spirit?"

When a person in their culture demonstrated uncharacteristic behaviour or speech it was assumed to be from some evil being. The Greeks in 600BC identified fremented grapes caused evil spirits [they thought] to enter the person - hense the name 'spirits" became associated with alcohol. Bundy Rum might cause uncharastic behaviour in some that need to be socially restrained.

So many people believe in so many things.

There is no conclusion, no answer and no proof that what you believe as an individual exists, so there is no use getting upset when another person doesn't share your point of view.

Humans have a remarkable gift to question things, unfortunately when that gift is mixed with fear, it produces a nasty little result called hate, this mixed with ignorance has produced some catastrophic events in our history.

It is natural to try to impose our beliefs onto somebody else, but history shows that this has a negative outcome.
In my opinion acceptance is the hardest thing for people have.

Here is my belief. Accept the way things are and allow the universe to provide and unfold, everything happens for a reason including the bad.
Shift no blame and be responsible for your own actions, only you control what you do and how you do it.
At the end of the day, stressed or not, you are alive, live the best you can.

Only you have to look at yourself in the mirror, humble your soul and seize every moment, discontinue the urge to constantly seek better.

On the quest for truth, keep your eyes, heart and mind open.

But that is just my belief, I may be wrong but the important thing is I believe in myself and I will accept the expression of somebody elses belief and control the way I do so.

well I never thought i would ever agree with A.J. Phillips on anything. He is totally right in that Jesus believed and drove out evil Spirits along with His disciples. Philo needs much twisting of Scripture to deny this. Jesus also could of called angels to prevent His crucifixion if He so wanted. The old testament (Hebrew) also teaches that King Saul was tormented by a evil spirit.

Hi all, before I start with my opinion, I'd like to tell a little bit what I am going through personally. I'm actually sitting in the magistrate courts right now. It's funny n interesting, getting charged wt some law in dis country. I really couldn't be bother to be here on time. 1 1/2 hours late. On my way here I had a good time reading ur comment DEEP.. Make my fur rise I twitted. I will respond to that when I can type quicker.

I hv decided to file against the government here as well, just haven't had time to do the paperwork yet. Thanks to the government, I have to struggle with my daily life. They have complicated my life so much thanks to all their laws and human judgment. Yes they think I'm a prostitute n think that they can come into my temporary home. Sit in front of my face and how many times did they indicate I am one? They have broken my family, they have made my life into pretty much hell. Lol

I am not allowed to leave to see my friends and family, I am broke(yippee) so I can use the system to fight the system. So since I am stuck here, I will file a few more suits, so that this government acknowledges what they have done to me and my family thanks to the great laws they have. I'm making this one of my life mission :)!

I might be broke, I might be alone, but I've got my dignity, and a good brain, and I will use it well....

To be continued.... Sunshine and lollipops :) yippeee

runner,
Please read the text below. Saul suffered from a breathing disorder known today as Apnea. This can cause irritability, bad temper and violent behaviour because of the lack of oxygen to the brain during sleep.

1Sa 16:14 Now the Spirit of Jehovah departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from Jehovah troubled him.
1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
1Sa 16:16 Let our lord now command thy servants, that are before thee, to seek out a man who is a skilful player on the harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.
1Sa 16:17 And Saul said unto his servants, Provide me now a man that can play well, and bring him to me.
1Sa 16:18 Then answered one of the young men, and said, Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Beth-lehemite, that is skilful in playing, and a mighty man of valor, and a man of war, and prudent in speech, and a comely person; and Jehovah is with him.

1Sa 19:9 "But an evil spirit from the LORD came upon Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand. While David was playing the harp".

His disorder was a natural event inflicted upon him by God as a natural affliction, and in Saul's case was associated with his breathing. It is recorded in Jewish antiquities as him “chocking in his sleep”.

Does God cause evil?

Philo

No matter how many times you read it, it says what it says. When the Holy Spirit departs and an evil spirit takes His place I could hardly conclude it a natural event. It certainly would not be taught so in science. I think he had more than a disorder just like Hitler had more than the adamic nature working in his life.

You ask does God cause evil? No but He allows it to a point. I think that is obvious. Just look at the heart of man and you will see how patience He is.

i..agree with danielle...the holy_texts..<<are descriptive;..not prescriptive>>

jinny..we have been..over-this..i only can do that..i feel able/to.be doing

philo...it has been recorded..we carry many bacteria..but..the numbers are kept..so low..we dont appear*..sick...[only..3 out of 4 people..can get cancer]...we all have..bad*bacteria

and during..the many epidemics..many..didnt*get sick...it could be co-incidence..or some other thing..but..its not..as simple..as/you..have bacteria...your..sick/dead..etc

as for..does god..'cause'..evil?
well..does..mr henry ford..cause car/accidents?

fact-is..no cars..no car-accidents
but..no god...no life

so yes..he..did cause...vile..but also..
vile...allows us..to chose..to*do..better good

Tied in..with all-this..is the worship of..the body[result]..as cause..[self..as god],..elitist-intellectualism,..and the idea that.."man..is the measure..of..all things"...is..simply an absurdity...[to make..the cause*..man..
denies..the true cause..god..and..his gift*..of life]

Therefore..in..the materialists-realm
good looks,..sporting prowess..busines/accumen
brain's..ability..knowledge...answers...genes..ways/means

and..to a lesser extent,..natural*[lol]..intelligence..are highly prized/characteristics..and those..who possess them*..in great measure..are the objects..fruits/rewards..of adoration..in our culture.

but..i know..that i do..im not doing it..many others are
we are all*..specialists...im a specialist...watcher...
noticing..building..not destroying

This is clear..when you consider..the attention ..given to these things..in the entertainment..and media industries,..which greatly
in*-fluence ..the hearts..and the minds..of people.

we all..got our causes..reasons..and reasonings

Truly,..people today..worship..and serve..the creature*..creation
instead of,..the Creator,..who is serving..even the least..to be-blessed..with the manyfold...free/..living/..loving gifts..of good and love..forever.

lest we forget..science..*HASN*T..made_life..ever*
can recognise/..measure..describe..the signs..

but not*.make..dust live..
ie..cant replicate..that on which they speculate

till it knows..and repeats..that small*thing..
dont*..be too sure..that..mans..other theories/ideas..as right either*

in*cluding..those..i quote

we..might have..'phycic councilors...but they cant cure..*every*thing..+every-one
yet..can name*..anything..[lol]..by its symptom's...its a joke..that nuts..is a lable...

if you claim..they cure,..it all..
they claim..to excise..dis-ease..sometimes...

they,..and we are..free*to believe*..so-as..*we chose*

i dont see..im creating fear...only summerising..in-formation
i trust..that..the knowing of which..will overcome any needless fears

im mearly trying to balance..the absurdity..of..Scientific Materialism..the idea of naturalism,..that/only..the physical world..exists,a one/eyed-belief..that..there ..is no spiritual realm..(except..perhaps..as an intellectual abstraction).

into which..i include many materialistic..replacements..that have become..faiths,..Include..the philosophy..of naturalism/..medicine/science..

which is the support/for..the theory*..of evolution..
which denies God..as..the Creator..and Sustainer..of all things.

This philosophy...still has powerful influence..
in education...and life generally
even on these pages

Economic-Materialism(Greed)..the love..of money/wealth/power/fame.

People will give..most of their life..to the pursuit of wealth
and the MEDIA..constantly pumps people..full of desires for
more..and more products..

which only...FIAT/fed re-serve..[mon-ey]
[bankers/ursury-ists]..controlled..money..*can buy.

only begotten..by paying URSURY...to monopolists
[recall jesus/money-changers..?}

People...sacrifice many*..things..including family
and friends..pride..and propriority..in the..pursuit of..these..FALSE_idol's.

treat..them..as good/..god..[if you will]
or treat..my quotes..as fiction*...i couldnt care-less

thank_god ..we can still..chose..to believe*it..or reject*it..
all..or..in part..[as we chose*]....[for now..!..]

we each..will have..one event/thing..we cant explain..or verify/validate..by science method..in fact..the list of sciences..FAILINGS*/fauds*/misstakes..is rather huge*

but back to..the quote..from...a/wanderor..in spirit-lands
http://new-birth.net/booklet/Wanderer_a4.pdf

"In a..like manner..spirits of..a low-type..can clothe themselves
in these..*empty..astral garments,[forms]..but..in their case the very grossness..of the spirit..(or soul)..prevents them from retaining possession,..for very-long,

tongue..in cheek?..funny thought*..
[take..a..'common_cold'..3 to 5..days?]..lol

the dense/magnetism..of the low-spirit's..own..spirit-body acting as
a strong..noxious vapor..or gas..would do..upon..a covering..made, say,..of a spider's web..of fine gossamer,..and rending it..into a thousand pieces...[sic*?]

To a spirit..above the..astral-plane..
an astral-envelope..appears..almost as solid..as iron,..

but..to one below it..these fragile shells
are..like a cloud..or aetherist-vapor.

The lower..the soul..the stronger..it-is..in..its envelope..!

and..the more firmly..does it hold..the living..spirits-soul-body,
limiting..its..god given-powers{health}....and preventing it..from rising..into a more advanced -phere."

yes its..a..{sic*]..simulie

"You mean,..then,..that..spirits sometimes use..these astral shells..as they do..earthly mediums,..and either..control them independently..or actually enter..into the form?"[IN-fect}

"Yes,..certainly...A spirit..above..the earth-plane,..
anxious to show..himself..to a clairvoyant..of the lowest..or first degree of power,..will sometimes*enter..one of these..shells..which*..he at once stamp*s..with his identity,{sickness}

[sic*]and..in that way..the clairvoyant[clear see-er]..will truly see..and describe him...[by symptum?]..lol...

come-on..loosen..up

*The danger..lies..in the fact..that..when the*good-spirit..of limited knowledge..seeks to leave..again..the astral-shell,..he finds he cannot do so;..he has..animated it[sic*]..and its..strong will of living...[for life]..holds him prisoner,

..and it is..often difficult..to release him..see[quote.AJ,Monday,8:09:14]

In similar manner/..the..too complete,..too*..long continued control..of an earthly medium..by..a..sic*-spirit,..has been found to create..a link between*..them..which becomes..at last a*chain...
[fatal dis-ease..?..often resulting..in 'death'..of both?]

To a spirit..of the lowest spheres..an astral envelope..is but/a convenient,all too evanescent cloak..with which to hide his own degraded spirit body,..!..

and thus impose/upon clairvoyants..{ie the sensatives/few]..one..in four]..proof..for those*..unable to*see..[yet able to..'name']..the vile spirit[bug/virus..affect]..underneath;..see..[aj/quote]

but.to a good..and pure spirit....the astral-envelope
is/as..a suit..of iron..capable of imprisoning him."
[till death..do we part]..

"Then..in the case of what..are called..personations..by one spirit
of another..at séances..[hospitals]...upon earth,..

..are these..astrals..made use of?"..continues

Dear runner,

According to the Bible God creates evil.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

"Very often they are,..where the mischief-making spirit..is of too low..a type..himself..to come into..direct..contact with the*medium...[vacinations//infection..often sufice][sic*]

You must know..by this time..how wonderfully..the thoughts of..mortal men..and women..are mirrored..upon the atmosphere of..the astral-plane,..

and..as pictures..they can-be read..and answered..by spirits..
possessing..the knowledge of..how to read them.[see/jc]

All spirits..have not..the power*,
[but docters..can name it][sic*]...lol

as pictures..[feeling/symptoms]..they can be read..and NAMED..by..DR-spirits..possessing..the knowledge of..how/to read*..them.

All spirits..have not..the*power,..just as all men..and..women on earth..are not able..to read.a newspaper..or a letter.

It requires..intellect..and*..education..
with us..as/with those..on earth.

The spirits,..then,.of which men..should most beware..are not so much
the..poor/ignorant..half developed-spirits..of the earth-plane..and lower-spheres,...whose degraded lives..have made them..what*..they are..!..[but..their..SYMPTOM..(sign}]

and..who are..often glad of..a helping/hand..to raise them,
but..it is of..the intellectually-evil,..and.those who/have..
great powers8..alike..of mind..and body..and..who have only
..used them..for wrong purposes...[revealing/volumes]

These..are the real*dangers..to guard..against,..and it is only..by the increase of knowledge..amongst the mediums..incarnated..in the earthly_body..that it..will*be..successfully done,

for*..then..mortals..and spirit-workers..will labor..*in unison,..!

and mutually..*protect..the spiritual-movement..from fraud..and from
the mistakes of..the well meaning..but half-ignorant spirits..and mortals..who are doing..good*work..in directing..the attention*of mankind..to..the matter,

but..who often..do harm..both to themselves..and others....in simply delivering their..communications/mess-age

They are..like..ignorant..chemists..and..liable to..bring destruction..and harm..upon others..as well as on..themselves..in their experiments..in search*..of knowledge."

"You do not think,..then,..that the purity
of..their motives..will suffice..to protect them?"

"Would purity..of motive..save..a child..from being burnt..
if..it thrust..its hands..into a blazing-furnace?..No!

then..the only way is..to keep..the child..as far from the fire..as possible...this good..and..wise spirit-guardians do..in a great measure,..[often..via fables/deciets/lies]

but if..the children*..are continually hovering..near the danger,..and try..at all sorts of..odd-times..and fashions..to get..just another peep/at..the dangerous*thing,..it is impossible..but..that some..of them..will get scorched."[sic*]

"Then you..would*not ..advise..the indiscriminate cultivation/of mediumistic powers..by all mortals?"

"Certainly not.

I would have..all men use..the powers..of those..who have been
carefully developed..*under..wise-[selfless]..guardians,..and..I would have..all assisted..to cultivate them..who are truly anxious..to develop their powers..as a means..of doing good..to others.

But when..you consider..how manifold..and..how selfish..may be..the motives..of those..mediumistically endowed,..you will see..how exceedingly difficult..it would be..to protect..them..in all-ways

JINNY:

This may be cold comfort for you at the moment,
In Goethe’s play “Faust”, Faust asks of Mephistopheles the Devil (In a passage from the ply) “Who art thou” The Devil’s reply! “I am part of that spirit which always wills evil and always creates good”.

I dug up the following poignant lines to reinforce this theory just for you:

When nature wants to take a man
And shake a man
And wake a man
When nature wants to make a man
To do the futures will
When she tries with all her skill and she yearns with all her soul
To create him large and whole
With what cunning she prepares him
How she goads and never spares him and in poverty begets him…
How she often disappoints
Whom she sacredly anoints
With what wisdom she will hide him
*Never minding what betide him*
Bids him struggle harder yet
Makes him lonely
So that only
God’s high message shall reach him
So that she may surely teach him
What the hierarchy planned
Though he may not understand
Gives him passion to command
How remorselessly she spurs him
With terrific ardour stirs him
When she poignantly prefers him
(Angela Morgan)

Stay strong/Diver Dan

davidf you write

'According to the Bible God creates evil.' Have you all of a sudden had your spiritual eyes open or are you quoting a book you claim is flawed.
No doubt the Scripture you mention does say God created evil in the contrasting of light and darkness peace and evil or calamity. This has nothing to do with a moral evil of which you and I are partakers. One of the evidence of mankind's evil is the quick conclusion to blame God for evil. Taking Scripture out of context is exactly what the devil tried with Jesus when He was being tempted in the desert.

Dear runner,

The Bible was written and translated by humans who included the fantasies and legends of their time. It is only logical that if God is omniscient and all-powerful God creates evil. Whatever exists is created by God. One doesn't need a devil to explain evil.

God is a human invention. There is no God, devil or any of the other supernatural fantasies gullible believers accept.

However, evil could not exist if there really was an all-powerful, all-knowing, benevolent God. It is that simple. It is only a problem for those who believe in that contradiction.

All the stories of miracles are due to the fact that imaginative humans could write what would now be called science-fiction and fantasy.

If one grows up one realises there is no Santa Claus and discards all other religious fantasies. To believe the Bible stories of miracles means that one has not grown up and has remained a child. Unfortunately these childlike minds are in the bodies of adults who try to push their nonsense on others.

I have a belief. I believe that some human beings will refuse to face reality, and so we will continue to have religion. I believe that some humans will never grow up. I hope my belief is wrong, and all humans can become fully adult.

Runner, we can all take the bible out of context can't we?
Even you?

What I was wondering, is the Devil an evil spirit?
If not, what is he?

If Jesus talked about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - then surely He believed in spirits, Holy or otherwise?

Some have said that the bible was written in times when spirits were believed in, and thus they were written about in the bible- even though we now know they are not real.

Why then are some Catholic Priests, in very recent times, still claiming to 'exorcise demons'?
Aren't these considered evil spirits that take over human's bodies and minds?

Poor runner, davidf describes you to a 't'.

And millions like you too.

It's odd that a god that so loves you, has you constantly in fear of it, spruiking all sorts of gobbledegook about how wise it is.

Try sinning for a few moments, and imagine a world free of supernatural bogeymen, with just a squillion tossers to contend with, ego driven, greedy bar stewards, and unobservant others.

Of course, we can all be seen in that light, when the 'others' disagree with our views, but it's much easier to deal with that reality than to always be trying to second guess which goat to sacrifice next, to keep the water bills from rising.

Philo,

We can’t even know if Jesus actually existed and here you are purporting to know what he believed.

<<It is pointless to tell people there are no such things as demons who believe very deeply they do exist.>>

So god can create anything, do anything, see anything, but he can’t convince some dune dwellers that evil spirits don’t exist?

Couldn’t he have at least had the nous to pick a better time to visit Earth then?

What about helping us to progress? Sure, the concept of modern medicine may have been a little hard for the people of those times to grapple, but surely they would have understood the medical benefits of regular bathing and general hygiene.

<<...it was the culture of his time that he confronted to cast out evil spirits.>>

Slavery was also a big part of the culture of his time, but he didn’t bother to confront that to cast it out.

<<Such a practise was used by the Sadducean Jews to cast out demons [evil spirits]. He did not originate the practise it was first used by the Sadducees as the NT identifies.>>

I realise Jesus didn’t originate the practice of casting out spirits, but he would have foreseen the blood that would be spilled because of superstition, so considering he chose to do nothing to deter such beliefs - particularly when he was going to have such a large following - he could justifiably be considered to be the most criminally negligent person of all time.

Davidf

for such puny man to wave his fist at His Creator and pretending He does not exist is not grown up in my eyes. In actual fact I think it it is height of arrogance.

Suzionline you ask
What I was wondering, is the Devil an evil spirit?

Yes he is. He is a fallen angel who often appears to man as an angel of light.

you write
If Jesus talked about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - then surely He believed in spirits, Holy or otherwise? Of course He did.

you write

'Some have said that the bible was written in times when spirits were believed in, and thus they were written about in the bible- even though we now know they are not real.'

Some people write some pretty dumb stuff. The work of the devil along with his helpers is obvious everywhere throughout the world.

you write

Why then are some Catholic Priests, in very recent times, still claiming to 'exorcise demons'?
Aren't these considered evil spirits that take over human's bodies and minds?

I can't answer for the Catholic church.

TBC

I would rather struggle against and resist sin than to cave in and become in bondage like it seems you have. Their is nothing pretty about men and women being enslaved by their lusts. You seem to think its fun. Tell that to the kids being tampered with by men and women enslaved by porn.

Human nature..

runner wrote: Davidf

for such puny man to wave his fist at His Creator and pretending He does not exist is not grown up in my eyes. In actual fact I think it it is height of arrogance.

Dear runner,

How did you know I was a puny man? I am old, frail and weak. However, I use my mind to the best of ability. I don't see how I can wave my fist at something that exists in your imagination.

Apparently you think it is the height of arrogance for someone not to believe in the foolishness you believe in. I am humble enough not to condemn people who have childish beliefs. I have been gullible myself on occasion.

Even though I am 85 years old in my mind I am sometimes a little boy hugged by a loving grandmother. I have a cousin who is a Christian fundamentalist and tells me that my wonderful, loving, skeptical, wise, funny grandmother is suffering the torments of hell because she never accepted Jesus. He is neither a child nor an adult just a hateful nut. My grandmother is my wonderful memory, and I was so lucky to be loved by her.

May you find peace in your fantasies.

davidf

you write

'How did you know I was a puny man? I am old, frail and weak.'

Everyone including elite athletes are puny compared to their Creator. I suggest you use your mind to see the hideous observations needed in order to believe in evolution and deny your Creator.

'Apparently you think it is the height of arrogance for someone not to believe in the foolishness you believe in. I am humble enough not to condemn people who have childish beliefs. I have been gullible myself on occasion'.

No I believe it is the height of arrogance to deny your Creator;

I am pleased that you have pleasant memories of your grandmother. I have fond memories of lost ones myself. Some were believers some were not.

The agonizing death of Christ makes no sense if heaven and hell are not realities. Jesus gives us the choice. Speaking the truth does not make one hateful. In fact denying the lifeline Christ has given us in hateful.

You write
'May you find peace in your fantasies.'

Really I think it is you in denial Davidf not me. I do hope for your sake I am wrong. I very much doubt it.

Runner... you seem to think that I am enslaved by porn, which is an odd claim given that you know nothing about me.

In fact, it seems that all too frequently it is the overly religious who are enslaved by this activity, as well as general sexual abuse of children, particularly within the ranks of the Vatican godbotherers.

But back to your claims, once again, you seem to exist within a cocoon of total fear, bobbing up now and again to accuse others of what you fear the most.

For your information, I have no struggle against porn at all, whereas you clearly say you do.

I simply ignore it, which is not hard to do either.

Put down your stick-book, and send back the brown paper wrapped parcels to Canberra, and stiffen your resolve not to look at it again.

Then ask yourself, 'why do you test me like this god?'.

You'll probably find you get no answer.

It's then safe to assume there is no god out there, and that your struggle with porn is something within you.

Go and see a shrink.

Dear runner,

I'm glad we both have good memories of those we loved and are gone. We can both try to live so those we leave behind have pleasant memories of us. I hope to go to the US next year and be with some of my descendants.

Atheists are not angry at God. They just realise it is a fantasy and see no need to accept a fantasy just because others have accepted such a fantasy. Probably, if you have lived before humans invented Christianity you would have accepted the Greek or Roman gods and would have considered it the height of arrogance to doubt their existence. All gods are human inventions.

Maybe the fable of *Adam & Eve* in reality is the story of *2 LoverS* breaking out of the confines of the religio/political control mechanism which was constraining intellectual expression and stultifying the evolution of humanity at the time, but the truth of their situation never came to be widely known as it was suppressed by a paranoid and delusional "church" and turned into a faerie tale to scare and compel children into obedience and fealty from the time that they were born.

..

Of course *Our Lord Satan,* far from being entirely wicked in this particular instance, actually came concurrently at the behest of the God Head who were all beginning to tire of humanity sitting around banging rocks together.

HaHaHa

;-)

..

and *BoazY,* I have to agree with you visa vi one group of people being forced to cow tow to the religious practices of another. I far prefer a common standard that people can all mostly agree on.

..

Oh, btw, we are back in Australia now and its great to be back. Very soon now (touch wood) my girls will again take to the sky and return to their original abode for the purposes of having their passports evidenced in the final stage of their permanent residency applications.

*Sigh of Relief*

:-)

21.06.11

AJ Philips,
I suggest that you pay a visit to Israel and see the places of NT history. Josh McDowell has three volumes on the historical evidence of Jesus and the rise of the Christian Church from the first Century. There is more written evidence for the historical Jesus than for Julius Caesar, so I suppose you also doubt his existence on the same basis.

That both persons existence is based in faith in the documents.

you got the date wrong 579. and it's merely a prediction. Like buying the lottery and hoping you win.

I am interested to note DreamOn has faith in his wodden gods by his following quote, "Very soon now (touch wood) my girls will again take to the sky and return to their original abode for the purposes of having their passports evidenced in the final stage of their permanent residency applications."

Runner <"I would rather struggle against and resist sin than to cave in and become in bondage like it seems you have. Their is nothing pretty about men and women being enslaved by their lusts. You seem to think its fun. Tell that to the kids being tampered with by men and women enslaved by porn."

Oh dear Runner, you have run out of religious reasoning for your' arguments now, and flung sexual perversions at someone you don't know.

Where on earth did you get the idea that I 'caved in' to bondage? LOL!
I don't think I have ever mentioned that practice at all on OLO.

Fun and lust are normal human (well, most humans) feelings, and have nothing to do with paedophilia Runner.

You don't need me to tell you that God-believers are just as likely to commit that crime as anyone else.

runner..god..is not affected..by man..[nor men]..in the least
wether..waving their frail/puny fists..or not

its not..god..who needs men
but men..who need god

its no use concerning..about what others do..let alone..what they believe..take heart..in revelations 22;11..for this..is the truth

its not worthy..of debaiting..re jesus...he lived
and left behind..a body of quality teaching...

[but recall..it was him..what said..about;..'ye unbvelieving nation needing miracles']..as if life..is not a miracle enough

for many...evil is in..the heart of the beholder
[its silly for us..who know god is love..
to deney..that evil..loves*..its evil]

neither the fact..that god is good...creating..only good things
its not his fault..we use them badly..[on one hand]..

but look at the other..had he not created..*nothing..
then there would be..no good..[and..no evil]...

of course...god created good...just as..henry ford created ford-cars...but..ford is not*to blame..if some fool..uses his car to murder

the more..i see of gods amasing creation..
the more i see the wisdom..of judging it good..

[if only by..the three monkey theory...see hear/do..[feel]..no evil]..

yea..thou i walk though..the valley of vile..i shall fear no evil

the only way..some..can real-ISE..THE TRUE GOOD
is by..rejecting*..the truelly vile

im with satan...falling from heaven...
[even see god as being happy..he did...

[recall the refused to bow down..before the clay+goyam[adam]..and this..was his freewill..chosing to bow down..to none*other than..the ONE/good..god

if thats a sin..call me ammoung the fallen
i too reject..bowing to mere men..

[let alone standing..when a fool judge..
[in a dress]..walks into a box..

[by mans-[legal-law]..if its in a box..its not there..]..
thats why..the witness..sits in a box

just because the vile..has cleverly..joined santa-clause..as a god-head..judgmental-figure..on the messiahs..birth*day

and coverd over..his death[and rebirth]....with an ester bunny

has nothing to do..with jesus/birth
or his dying..[for 3 days]..and returning

invalidating..jud-ment/day...and reserction day

[if fools cant see the scam...
then as the quaran says

let he who will be decieved..be decieved]..
even if they accords it as

god decieves..who he wills
he dont...but let it be

[accept..the clever..barstewards..
fool..only/them-selves]

none so blind..as those..who think they can see..
through..that they are talking through..to/wit..[through their butt]

DEEP: I am surprised with your level of awareness and knowledge you haven't figure out your unanswered question regarding the work of spirits. There is always and answer. The ones who seek the truth shall see the light.

Posted by Philo, Tuesday, 9 November 2010 7:33:48 PM

" ... I am interested to note DreamOn has faith in his wo(o)den gods by his following quote, "Very soon now (touch wood) ... "

..

Well, perhaps not the best choice of expression to convey my intended meaning dear *Philo* as in reality, it is a matter about which we will not have certainty until the next stage of the process as referred to above, that being the intended exit from Australia

AND

I no longer practice faith in belief systems/god concepts as I once did. Now, in the absence of any compelling evidence to the contrary, I prefer mostly to be the observer.

And even if their is a God replete with Heavenly Spirit Hosts etc, I believe that you can be a faithless, (ignorant) & secular (agnostic/atheist/whatever) and overall express One's Self during One's Life in a manner entirely consistent with the best of the essence of the shared good values & traditions that we at times hold in common during our shared Humanity to achieve immortality/get to Heaven, on this our not so equally shared "Green House Cranky" planet, during this our possibly only brief conscious sojourn in this physical, space-time reality,

(at least brief relative to the sort of age the scientists estimate the uni(multi)verse to be, and how old it will become before all the stars turn dim and the universe collapses and folds back into itSelf through a myriad of black holes.)

..

Of course, this earth is eventually destined to be burnt to a crisp by the sun well before then, so either we evolve into some kind of energy being ala the Soma Heliakon or something similar

(mayhaps a possible evolutionary path "bequeathed/seeded" unto/into us by *The Christ Being*)

or we develop "warp" speed capability or something equally amazing AND find habitable other planets

OR

we are #$%^%^ as a species anyway.

Every true monotheist who believes there is but one God and one Spirit must deny the existence of any spirit beings other than the spirit of man. Any other view is polytheistic superstition. Man is currently in opposition to the spirit and character of God. The spirit of Man is the satan [Hebrew satanas] in opposition to God.

In every case in the NT where the devil or satan is mentioned it identifies a spirit found in a physical man in opposition to God. It is the spirit of the man himself. As in the case of the satan in Matthew 4 it was the leader of the Zealots held out in the desert with his stone sucking followers with an agenda to overthrow Roman occupation of the temple and their land. The climax to this endeavour was Masada while Jesus kingdom was forever - forgiveness, peace and love for enemies.

There is but one power in the universe able to create, change and destroy matter - God. He is the creative power of the universe that was supposed to be expressed in His creation by every man. That power was expressed in the man Jesus Christ.

Jesus was a man in his time concerned for the welfare of the sick, physically and mentally impaired, the fearful and despairing, the moral and legal sinner, the oppressed and captive slaves; as he endeavored to set each free from their particular oppression. It is the spirit of Christ that should be manifest in each. It is the character and mission of this man in his time that should inspire each of us in our time with the same care and compassion. In this way we express the spirit and character of God.

i find agreement..with your words philo
as long as it dosnt imply jesus..as the one..[god]...but mans best teacher..[who demonstrated..to all men...we each*..have god/within*]

as he said...see me..[that you see..me..do]..see our father..[doing]

he also said..that ye see me do..ye will do greater
[not of ourselves..but the one good/god..within us all]

we cannot do*.greater..than god

our collective..{not good]..can be seen..as an embodyment of vile..
summerised as..'satan'...but*..satan..is..by the same measure not real..

[even if the vile..he..can be said/to embody..is seemingly very real...[to those taking..the[royal]..blue[blood]..[materialistic/judgmental[ego]-pill..]

[and satan..is cetainly not..any oppisite/..any opposing..to the good's of god]

anyhow continue/quote
,..you will see how..exceedingly difficult
it would be..to protect them.

Perhaps my ideas..are colored by the circumstances..of race
and my earthly education,..but I confess I_should wish..to limit
the practice of mediumship..to those who have proved their readiness
to give up*..more..material*..advantages..for its sake.

I would,..in fact,..rather see them..set apart
as a body..who have no share in
the ambitions of mankind...

i guess thats..what i been doing...but its not easy..but it is my choice
[still havnt reached..the bit..im..seeking to quote]

weird,..horrible looking forms approaching us.
These were astral shells..which had never known soul life,
but,..unlike the pleasant waxy looking astral..shells..from which we
had just parted,..these were..in all respects..repulsive.

"These,"..said Hassein,.."are the emanations..thrown off by men..and women
of..a low intellectual/type and...living..evil,..opbsessional-sensual lives.

They are from the slums..of the earthly-life--not alone..the social slums,.
...but also from a..higher grade of society..where there are moral slums..quite as degraded.

Such beings..as these,..which..when,,animated by an evil intelligence
can be used..for the very worst purposes...Being so very material,..they can
even be used..to affect material matter upon earth,..and have been so used in
the practice of what is known as..Black Magic and witchcraft,..and they are also
(but very rarely)..used by higher intelligences to effect..physical phenomena at séances.

Where wise..and good intelligences control them..no harm will be done,
but..under the direction of the evil ..or ignorant they become a danger
beyond my power..fully to express.

The constant renewal of..the animal..and astral life
often enables these..vampire spirits..to hang about the earth..for centuries."

"Is..it possible..for a vampire spirit..to possess itself..of a sufficient amount of materiality..to appear in..mortal form..and mingle with men..as described in many of the tales..told of such creatures?"

"If you mean..to ask..if..the vampire can make..to itself..a material body,.I say no,
By far..the larger number..of vampire spirits,..are not..in possession of
an earthly body,..and they hover about the earth..in their own astral envelope,

sucking away the earthly life..of mediumistic*persons[feeding their old vile..with their new viles]....whose peculiar fruits..of their works...and organization..makes them* liable to..become..the prey of..such influences,..

while they are themselves..remain/quite ignorant..
that such beings..as these..astrals exist.

The poor mortals suffer..from a constant sense of exhaustion..and languor
without suspecting..to/what..it is to be attributed."

"But cannot spirit guardians protect mortals..from these beings?"
"Not always...In a great measure..they*..do protect them,..but only as one
may protect a person from..infectious fevers,..by showing them the danger
and warning them to avoid..spots where,..owing to the associations with their
earthly lives,..to which..the vampire spirits..are specially attracted.

This..the guardian spirit..does..by instilling into the mind of the mortal
an instinctive dread..of the places..where crimes have been committed,
or persons..of evil lives..have lived.

But since..man is..and..must..*be..in all respects..a free agent,
it is not possible to do more.

He cannot be directed..in all things..like a puppet,..and must..in a great measure
gather..his own experience..for himself,..however bitter..may prove its fruits.

Knowledge,..guidance..and help...*will always be*..given,..but only in such a manner
as will..*not interfere with man's..free will,..and only such/..knowledge..as he
himself desires;..nothing..*will ever be forced..upon him..by the spirit world."

so saying..here is a test..and the final advices..prior..to the test
[by one entering..into hell...to redeem..past works...and save others[also having good/within]

Always remember..*that you will*be..surrounded by
every species of deceit..and falsehood,..

and believe..no*one..who comes to you..as a messenger from us..

Your thoughts..they may guess,..but they..will not be able to
read them clearly,..since you are above them..in spiritual development,

and although your having to..put on to a certain degree
their own condition..on entering their sphere..your body..will enable them to sense a portion of your thoughts,..it will be but imperfectly,..and only*..in those matters where your*own lower passions..still form a certain link between you and them.

With the highest powers of their intellect..to help them..they will plot and..scheme with great cleverness..to tempt and entrap you.

In these regions..there are men who were amongst the
greatest intellectual-powers..of their age,..but whose awful careers..of wickedness have sunk them to these/spheres where they reign..over all around them--even worse..and more despotic tyrants..*now..than they were upon earth.

Beware,then,..and heed all the warnings we have given you.
From time to time..you will receive/help and encouragement..from your sincere*friends until your mission shall have been accomplished..and you return,..let us hope,..as a victor in a good cause.

ir not fall into their temptations..!
but that will*be..of..your own choice

Through..the Wall..of Fire..{passion}

The companion..who was assigned to me..in this expedition
was a spirit..who had been in this sphere before,..and who was,
therefore,..well fitted to act as my guide..on entering this Land of Horrors.

After a short-time..we were to separate,..he told me,
and each*..to follow his*own..path-destiny-but..at any time
either of us..could,..if-needful,.summon the other to his aid..in case of extremity.

As we drew near..the great bank of smoke..and flame..I remarked to my companion..upon the strangely-material/appearance..they presented.

I was accustomed..in the spirit world..to the realism..and solidity of all our surroundings which mortals are apt to imagine..must be..of some ethereal..and intangible nature,..since/they are not visible..to ordinary eyesight,-

-still..these thick clouds of smoke,..these leaping tongues of flame,..were contrary to what I had pictured Hell..as being like...I had seen dark..and dreary countries..and unhappy/spirits..in my wanderings,

but I had seen..no flames,..no fire of any sort,..and I had totally disbelieved in..material flames..in a palpable form,..

and had deemed..the fires of Hell
to be merely a figure of speech..to express..a mental state

one under god,
Jesus was more than a mere teacher of ideas. His life and character expressed the very image of God. That which God designed us to image in our lives.

It is the reality of our life that expresses the very character of who we are, our attitudes etc that demonstrates our selfish heart or the image of God. In that sense our spirit is born of God as His son. God is our Father and we are His child - we all need a spiritual birth from God. Jesus spirit i.e. his heart and actions demonstrated God was expressed in him. That is why we can admire him and call him Lord and Master. We not only should believe his teaching but live our lives in sacrifice for others even our enemies as he demonstrated.

God is moral purity and we as humans have all failed in our purity so we need to be born again of God by His spirit. The kingdom of God is not enforced upon people by State laws but by the individual heart responding to the purity of God.

I don't no wat to believe now. Isn't it written 21.06.11 is the day. Now you tell me it aint necessarily so. The credability has taken a hit.

Many have*..taught..that it is so,..and..that..the torments of Hell..are mental..and subjective,..not objective at all.

I said something..of this..to my companion,
and he..replied:.."Both ideas..are in a sense right.

These flames..and this smoke..are created*by the spiritual emanations of/the unhappy beings..who dwell..within that fiery wall,..

To these/astrals,..and to those of..a similar*class..in which the soul-germ *..yet lingers..as like being..*in a prison,..are due*..those rough..and dangerous/manifestations..sometimes..*seen in spirit-circles..(séances),

where men..of bad lives,..and others/..too ignorant to protect themselves,..are assembled..from motives..[of curiosity..vile intent..or mere amusement."]

if only many..could realise the folly..And..the
potential danger..but that is the reasoning..for these quotes...

continue

"And amongst..what class of spirits..do you place those ghouls
and vampires..so firmly*..believed in,..in many parts..of the world?"

"Vampire..*spirits..are those*..who have themselves..known earth life,but have..*so misused it..that their souls..are still imprisoned..in the astral-envelope.

Their object..in sucking away..the animal/life principle..of men..and women..is..in order to retain*thereby..their hold upon..the life of the earth plane,..and so they..hope*..to..save themselves from..sinking to..the far lower spheres.

They are anxious..to cling to their astral-envelope..and..*to prolong its life,just as..men..of very evil lives..upon earth..cling to..the life of the earthly body..

because they fear*..that when they are..separated from it..they will sink into some unknown depths of darkness..and horror...[yet its more..'their'..version..of heaven...with their fellow lovers..of vile[doing their vile..ONLY*..upon each-other]..

but why spoil..the supprise

and these flames..being the coarse/emanations of these degraded spirits,possess for your eyes..an appearance..even more dense..and solid/..than for..the inhabitants themselves."

We now drew near..what appeared*..like..the crater/of a vast volcano--ten thousand Vesuviuses..in one!

Above us..the sky was black as night,..and but for the lurid glare of the flames we should have been in total darkness...

Now that we have reached..the mass of fire..I saw that it was like..a fiery-wall..surrounding the country,..through which*..all who sought to enter*..or leave it..*must pass.

"See now,..Franchezzo,"..said Faithful Friend,.."we are about to pass through..this wall of fire,..but do not/let that alarm you,..for so long as your courage..and your*will..do not fail,..

and you exert..all your..will-power to/..repel these fiery-particles,..they cannot*..come in..actual contact..with your body

"Were any one..of weak will..and timid/soul..to attempt this
they would fail,..and be driven back..by the force of..these flames
which are..propelled outwards

579: Where is it written this date? any links please? Just believe what your heart, soul, and mind tells you. It doesn't matter what others believe. You just believe in yourself, that's is what is important.

I tried to start another thread yesterday but it was rejected as the administrator states it should belong in this thread. Can't even remember exactly what I wrote. I know I did that as I didn't want to get involve with all this discussions here with everyone trying to proof the other person wrong.

Thank you Driver Dan for taking your time in your posting. I really appreciate it. Also thanks to a number of you in this forum for the excellent posts.

DEEP: No response still. Do you not believe in spirits of afterlife? You know about the one cell theory. Even when a life passes, it only goes away physically, back into our planet, back into us. Only physical. Many incidence happens to our lives personally in our past. Whether or not we want to be aware of all the signs and signals of these incidence, depends on our intuition and instincts.

UOG: I reckon you should start working on your book or a great website. Hope all is well.

Cheers and have a great day.. mine sucks :)hahaha.. I don't even know where to go from here, but I will not be broken.

This morning at the pool where we exercise a pleasant man told us about his son. His son has visited Aboriginal settlements and done such good things as combat petrol sniffing and other harmful activities which result from the hopelessness of their lives. His son sounded like an intelligent, dedicated person who was talented musically and in other areas. His son was supported in these activities by Scripture Union, an evangelical organization.

Then he told us that the Aborigines still engaged in Satanic worship. On questioning it appeared that what he called Satanic worship was merely their traditional pre-Christian forms of worship which some of them still practiced. I said that wasn’t Satanic just non-Christian. I told him about Jensen, the archbishop of the Sydney Anglican diocese, who called non-Christian religions, tools of Satan. He said, “I’d agree with that. Jesus said you’re either for me or against me.” I remarked that all Christians did not feel that way. He said there are so-called Christians.

I smelled Jews and other heretics burning.

Apparently these attitudes are consistent with Scripture Union which supplies many of the chaplains to the National School Chaplaincy Program. Those attitudes should not be promoted in the schools. http://highcourtchallenge.com/index.html is the url for Ron Williams lawsuit against government funding for this program.

Philo,

I’ve been through the lack of reliable evidence for Jesus a few times recently (you must’ve missed it all), so I’m not very enthusiastic about boring everyone with it all over again so soon, but here it goes.

<<Josh McDowell has three volumes on the historical evidence of Jesus and the rise of the Christian Church from the first Century.>>

I know, and the evidence and the reasoning contained in those volumes are as poor as that which can be found in the books by Lee Strobels. He also dishonestly uses the same façade as Strobels, painting himself as a sceptic who did some honest and unbiased research and discovered that there really is some reliable evidence for Jesus, when there isn’t.

Obviously I don’t have the time or post allowance here to go into why Josh McDowell’s evidence isn’t evidence, but you can find all his arguments debunked at http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/.

<<There is more written evidence for the historical Jesus than for Julius Caesar...>>

That’s probably true if you were to do a word count. But it’s quality, not quantity.

For Julius Caesar, we have contemporary accounts, government records and Caesar’s own writings. We have none of this for Jesus. No contemporary accounts, no writings from Jesus, no carpentry works, no government records of his birth, trial or crucifixion - nothing.

All we have for Jesus are hearsay accounts written decades after the alleged fact. That’s some pretty poor evidence. Particularly for a god who apparently wants a relationship with his creations. What kind of a god requires that his creations check their rational and critical thinking at the door just to get to know him?

<<...so I suppose you also doubt his existence on the same basis.>>

No, because there are no extraordinary claims about Julius Caesar so I’m willing to take it at face value that he did exist.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I rest my case.

Posted by david f, Wednesday, 10 November 2010 10:36:16 AM

" ... I smelled Jews and other heretics burning. ... "

..

Posted by AJ Philips, Wednesday, 10 November 2010 10:40:32 AM

" ... [PHILO]
<<...so I suppose you also doubt his existence on the same basis.>>

No, because there are no extraordinary claims about Julius Caesar so I’m willing to take it at face value that he did exist.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I rest my case. ... "

I think you'll find that some of the Roman Caesar's, and I suspect that that includes Julius, carried "Demi-God" status but however, I say that not to offer a view one way or the other in regards to the claim of the existence of 1 Jesus of Nazareth however, I would like to add that in the case of say the Ancient Egypytian Pharaoh Akhenaton, their was also an attempt to completely erase him from the history books and he was of course not the only historical figure to be treated thus.

well put..philo

two/more..quotes

[re ..hells/flames]..[the place..those fearing..
their inner-[good/god]..light..*dwell]

....by..a current of strong*will-force..

set in motion..by the fierce..and powerful beings..who reign here,..and who thus,..as they imagine,..protect*..themselves from..intrusions..[good]..from the higher-spheres.

To us,..however,..with our more spiritualized-bodies,..these flames..and the..walls and rocks..you will find in this land,..are..no more*impenetrable..than..is the solid material of earthly-doors..and walls,..and..as we can..pass..at will..through them,..

so too..can we pass through these,..which are..none the-less..
sufficiently solid..to imprison..the spirits..[of the decieved]..who dwell in this country.

The more ethereal..a spirit is..the less..can it be bound by matter,..and at the..same time..the less..direct power/can it have..in the moving of matter,..without the aid*..of the physical material..supplied by the aura..of certain mediums.

and..material as they seem..to your eyes,..opened*..to the/sight of spiritual things.. they would be8..invisible..to a mortal's sight,..

could one still..in the body of flesh..
by..any miracle visit..this spot.

They have,..in fact,..no earthly material..qualities..in them,

yet..they are..none the less material..in the sense..that all things earthly..or..spiritual are clothed..in matter..of some kind...[relitive to/their location.]

The number..and variety..of degrees of solidity..in matter are infinite*,

as without..a certain covering..of etherealized matter..even spiritual-buildings..and spiritual bodies..would be invisible to you

Like the waters..of the Red_Sea..they will fall apart
on either side..and we shall pass through..unscathed.

Here,..as*on earth,..we/would,..in order to move..its..material substances,require to use*..the aura..of some of the mediumistic spirits..of..this sphere.

At the same time..we shall find..that our higher/spiritual powers have become muffled,..so to say,..because..in order to enter..this sphere..and..make ourselves visible..to its inhabitants,..we have had to..clothe/ourselves..in its*..conditions/sub-stances,

and thus..we are more liable..
to be affected/by..its*..temptations.

Our lower-natures..*will be appealed*to..in every form,

and we shall..have to direct..our efforts
to prevent..them..from*again..dominating us.

My friend..now took my hand..firmly..in his..and we.."willed"..ourselves to pass/through..the wall of fire...

I confess that..a momentary sense of fear..passed over me
as we began to enter it,..but..I felt..we were.."in for it,..so exerting all my powers and..concentrating my thoughts..I soon found..that we were floating through-

-the flames forming..a fiery arch..below..and above us
through which..as through a tunnel..we passed.

Thinking of it now..I should say..it must have been
about a quarter..to half a mile thick,..

Jinny.

"Interesting how the human mind proceeds in a some-what ancient way of thinking and yet No evidence to prove that we are nothing more than electro-chemical beings."

I think that answers your Question.

BLUE

judging as one would by earthly-measurements,..but at the time I did not take sufficient note..to be very exact,..

all my energies being directed..to the repelling of..the fiery particles from myself.

As we emerged..we found ourselves..in a land of night.

It might have seemed like..the bottomless pit of desolation
had we not..stood upon solid-enough ground,..while above us..was this canopy of black smoke.

How far this country extended..it was impossible to form any idea,..since the heavy atmosphere..like a black-fog shut in our vision..on every side...I was told..that it extended through the whole of..this vast..and dreadful..sphere.

In some parts there were great tumbled jagged mountains..of black rocks,..in others long..and dreary..wastes of desert plains,..while yet others were..mighty swamps..of black oozing mud,.[detritus]..full of the most/noisome crawling creatures,..slimy monsters,..and huge bats...

Again there were dense/black forests of..gigantic, repulsive-looking trees,..almost human..in their power..and tenacity,..encircling and imprisoning/those who ventured amongst them.

[these are embodyments of human negativity..
much like satan..embodiments...that not real..[sin]..

Ere I left this awful land..I had seen these..and other dreadful regions,..but truly neither..I..nor anyone else..could ever really describe them..in all their loathsomeness..and foulness.

As we stood looking at this country..my sight,..gradually becoming used to the darkness,..enabled me to perceive the surrounding objects dimly,..and I saw that before us there was a highway marked by the..passage of many spirit feet..across the black plain on which we stood...

A plain covered with dust..and ashes,..as though all the blighted hopes,..the dead ashes..of misused earthly lives..had been scattered..here.

We followed this..highway,..and in a short time arrived..at a great archway of black stone..hewn into large/blocks..and rudely piled one upon the other.

An immense curtain..of what I thought at first..was black gauze
hung before the gateway.

On going nearer..I saw to my horror..that it was made from spirits' hair,..with the eyes..strung like beads upon it,.and,..most horrible of all,..the eyes were alive..and seemed to look at us imploringly

and follow..our every movement..as though striving to read our intentions..in coming here.

"Are these eyes..endowed with life?"..I asked.

"With soul life?..no,
but..with the astral life,..yes-...
-and they will..

its funny..how those..who dont*..believe...say it isnt so..

[regardless of the reality..or not..of that which they chose to disbelieve]

think of jesus..as much any other..with a body..of work

shakespear...or robin-hood...these are embodyments..of certain works
that we may agree with..or diss-agree/with..regardles of their truth..
or faulsity..

we can but look at...their fruit..or the fruits..of their works

anyhow..so saying..back to hell

ps jinny..keep fighting...have you..visited the world freeman society site?

[as for a website..this is it..its not mine..
so it will..never..be put into a book]

[the eyes]..will continue..to so..live..while the souls to which they belonged..continue..being..*in the spirit-bodies..or envelopes..from which these..eyes have been torn.

This/is one of the gates of Hell,..and the custodian of/it..has a fancy to decorate-it in this way..with the eyes..of his/victims.

In this place..there are none who have not..themselves been guilty
during their earthly lives..of the/most awful cruelties,..the most absolute defiance of the laws..of mercy and justice.

In coming here they are..only intent upon finding fresh means
to gratify their lust*..for cruelty,..

and thus..they expose*themselves..to becoming..in their*turn..the victims of beings..no more ferocious..than themselves,..but stronger in will-power..and cleverer/cunning..in intellect.

This is the City of Cruelty,..and those who reign here..do so by virtue of their very excess..of that vice...

The wretched spirits..to whom these eyes belong,..with their degraded,..stunted soul/germs still imprisoned..in their mutilated bodies,..are..at this moment..wandering through..the desolation of this/land,

or laboring..as helpless slaves..for their spirit tyrants,..deprived even of the limited power of sight..possessed by others..in this dreary land;

while between..the eyes..and their owners..there yet exists a-connecting link..of magnetism which will keep them living..and thus animated..by a reflected_life..till the soul germ/..shall cast off..its present envelope..and CHOSE*..to rise to a higher..*state..of life."

While we were studying..this horrible gateway..the curtain of living eyes was drawn aside,..and two..strange dark beings,..half human..and half animal,..came out,

and we took the chance..to pass in unnoticed by..the guardian of the gate,..a gigantic..and horrible creature,..misshapen..and distorted in every limb..so that the/worst ogre of fable..could scarcely convey to mortal mind..a picture of him.

He sprang out..with a frightful-laugh..and horrible language upon the..two poor..trembling spirits..who fled..

JINNY

Good.

Sometimes (I have noticed in my own life) Angles appear at the strangest of times cloaked in the strangest disguise.

God bless

I do so enjoy a good conspiracy, as the gate keeper rattles his keys.

Have a nice day.

BLUE

DreamOn,
I suggest you try living by the teachings and life of Christ and see if is has merit of itself. Wether there was a historical person of Jesus is not as important as living his attitudes. Truly seeking the fulfilment of others lives. Try living in forgivness, generosity of spirit and genuinely loving an enemy; with an endeavour to improve their life.

I think there is little doubt that Jesus existed. Josphus mentions him.

I draw on the work “Trial of Jesus of Nazareth” by Professor S.G.F. Brandon, a Christian. His work is well researched and impeccably documented. Brandon’s qualifications in Comparative Religion are impressive, also presenting Wilde lectures at Oxford, Forwood lectures at Liverpool; and a member of Studiorum Novi Testamenti Societas, the Society for Old Testaments Study; and the International Society for the Study of Time.

Brandon states that two Christian groups existed. Those of the Church of Jerusalem which comprised of Jesus’ original apostles and desciples, which included Mary, (Jesus’ mother), James (his brother), Peter and John; the other the Pauline community.

The Jerusalem community taught a “Christianity” at such variance with Paul’s, that Paul himself referred to their teachings as “another gospel” ... “another Jesus” - particularly in “reporting” Jesus’ trial and death.

The Jerusalem community denied that Paul had been an apostle. Indeed Paul had never met Jesus. Paul’s intention was to establish that his teachings were divine in origin, which was at complete variance with that taught by the original apostles. Paul distances himself from the Jerusalem group in a letter to the Galatians:

“I would have you know, bretheren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man ... but came through a revelation of Jesus Christ.”

In Paul’s Second Epistle to the Corinthians, he defends himself from the Jerusalem group, which regarded him of unsound mind, of being delusional. The Jerusalem community recognised Jesus’ death as a ‘human event’; Paul, on the other hand, claimed it as a ‘mystical event. Paul:

“... even though we once regarded (oidamen) Christ from a human point of view, we regard (ginoskomen) him thus no longer ...

The Jerusalem community perished in the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD.

Jesus’ teachings were a synthesis of prevailing Jewish thought; he adhered to the Jewish Torah without deviation. In all likelihood Jesus was either a rabbi or Jewish teacher, Interestingly, he taught predominantly in one specific geographical region. A region where, some believe, people had been coerced to convert to Judaism - a singularly rare occurrence

from him..in most abject terror,..but neither..he..nor they seemed able to perceive us.

"Are these beings..soulless?"..I asked,pointing to..the poor frightened spirits.

"Were..they ever..on earth?"
"Yes,.most certainly,..but..of a very low..type of savages,..scarcely above..the/wild beasts,..and quite as cruel,..hence..the reason they are here.

In all probability..their means of progression will..come from being..reincarnated..in a slightly higher-form..of earth-life,..and their experience*here,..which will be short,..will give them..the sense*..that there is retributive justice..somewhere,

although they will be apt..to form..their ideas of..a..God
from their dim recollections..of the powerful beings..who reign..in this place."

[does this not explain...how some..got/god..all wrong?]
clearly we can only do..that..we see others..do

"Do you,..then,..hold the doctrine of reincarnation?"

"Not..as an absolute law..under which..all spirits must pass,
but..I do believe..that..in the experiences..of many spirits reincarnation..is a law of..their progression.

[personally..i hold the vieuw..we all had to evolve[spiritually]..till we reached..this..highest..material*incarnation]..

from here..we can only accend..further..into..the realms of light...
or retard..back..into the darkness[freewill]..[till we each become..suns of god/good]..in our own time/way

[..suns of the light]..suns of the son...each..with our own..'let there be light'..moment]..[ye..shall be..as gods]

simply by looking..in the heavens..we see many..have succeeded,..in the life's..mission/..pure-pose

Each spirit..or soul retaining..bodies..born into planetary-life has..spiritual guardians,..who..from the celestial spheres..superintend its welfare..

and educate the soul..by which means..as seem best to them..in their wisdom...[some of life missions..seem very adverse...but we do learn its lessons..in time]

These spiritual guardians,..or,as some term them,..angels,..differ..in their methods..and their schools of thought,for there is no..sameness anywhere,

[noting..our relation-ship...is built..like a spiritual marrage...[life mission seems aimed..at finding..this symbiology..of simultude..
with at least..one other]


I am taught,..and know thus that..there is no/absolute path..upon which all must walk alike...Each school of thought..which has its counterpart,..its dim-imperfect reflection on earth,..has the perfected system..of that..specific.. school..

and its highest teachers in the celestial-spheres,..and from these higher spheres..their doctrines are handed..down to earth through spirits..in the intermediate spheres.

The end..all have in view..is the same,..but each maps out..a different path..by which the pilgrim souls..shall reach it.

The guardian angels..watch over the soul germ..during all of what may be termed its childhood..and youth,..which lasts from the moment..it first sees the light..of individual consciousness..

till..

haha... look what i found first search hit with google:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholic_church_is_a_big_hoax.htm

i would so love to see how your debate this...

BLUE: if you think it answers my question, it should answer your as well. Making your statement on : "not everything is explainable" ? right or wrong?
personally, you did not answer my question.

who is the gate keeper according to your believes

driver dan: there are many... we just have to be aware enough to notice them. i had one prominent one today. a Saviour then another one. I am blessed.

"Ask and Thou shall receive" works for me real good, even though I never like asking and don't really have to ask.

it's jinny by the way, no capitals, as i do not see the importance to that

Why do people feel the need to have an afterlife? What do they think they will experience?

I suppose many people have had inexplicable experiences ... coincidences ... synchronicity. Rupert Sheldrake has studied such events and has arrived at interesting hypotheses. One observation was based on the 'question' of how dogs know their owners are coming home.

Animals are an interesting barometer of human emotions, and events of life and death. I suspect that many have read of the case where a cat in a nursing home always knew when someone was about to die. It would snuggle up to the dying (the nurses maintained, comforting them). One particular event was paticularly significant. A doctor's prognosis was that a patient would be dead within a few hours ... lividity already occurring in the legs. The cat was nowhere around; it was two days later that the cat actually took its position of 'comfort' by the dying, who left this world within a short space of hours.

One imagines that the other inmates of the home would be fending the cat off with their zimmer frames ...

Perhaps others saw the documentary about a Jewish survivor of a death camp. He had lost his entire family. Emotionally damaged beyond other's comprehension, he went to England. It was here that he said that his first experience of comfort, indeed of another's "understanding/empathy" occurred. It wasn't by another human being. Sitting by a lake, a swan came up, and rested its head a neck over his shoulder. This Jewish man said that he wept for the first time ...

I wonder how many others have experienced the comfort and seeming understanding of an animal ... and where no human intervention has been able to provide this.

A story comes to mind about the pied piper, ( and the rats did die ) and what a weak attempted action to display such small and out of date thinking, that one can only feel sorry for the one's that were not in line to get the ticket, for what is.

Jinny! hamlet was not the greatest:)

Sad Song required.

Please play the no facts song, while I love all that is you,that you... are not.

And Jinny, as my children would say................OH burn.

NEXT

BLUE

The world is here. God love all.

A little song for you.

http://www.google.com.au/url?url=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DyHFDa9efCQU&rct=j&sa=X&ei=u7HaTKfFCsqecevymcMG&ved=0CCgQuAIwAg&q=dont+worry+be+happy&usg=AFQjCNECIAoNq8DFOCX5c3QubX3CjeiC-w&cad=rja

Enjoy all living things, and yes.........YOU. hehehehe.

May your god be with you.

Take it easy.

BLUE

Dear Danielle,

I know that story about the cat. I didn't know it died tho. Bummer. You don't have to believe in afterlife, it a personal choice. I don't preach about afterlife, but I've since enough to know that there is more out there that has not and cannot be explained by the so called paper qualified professionals that everyone seems to trust.

Why the strong bond with animals? It is how it was meant to be. They are so more more pure spirit, we on the other hand... errrrr...

and Dear BLUE,

Thanks for responding so promptly. The first of your last respond, not so significant. The second one, I burst out laughing! I've been listening to that song ever since I can remember.. with my dad. I can remember how he would smile and sing along with it to me. Good memories.

I do respect, enjoy and appreciate not only all living things, but also the things that have no life. Unlike UOG, this I do not agree with him. I told my kids. Treat everything with respect. All theses lifeless things are/were the work and effort of someone else for it to exist.

I can't take it easy, my God(brain) doesn't not allow me to. I was just talking to someone who rang me to say hi. I made the mistake of telling him what I have started and am intending to do. He said to me why? It's no point. You won't win.

tbc'ed...

You see, I have always been a pretty happy person. I mean happy till ppl who mean me think i'm tripping on drugs?! because they are brain washed into thinking all humans should behave a certain way. The way that is accepted in society.

This friend said(i think it was a very weak point btw) :" look at all those revolutionary people in the past. They did it for nothing, lost their life for nothing. I completely disagree. These people have given hope to others, courage to some to fight for a better living, and wisdom to know the difference between then, and now.

I told him, this is my choice. I choose the hard paths in life, because they are important to me. I thought about it right after and i thought.. I'm pretty happy now, which all this nonsense going on.. i wrote today on my sites, i feel like a puppet being controlled by the government here. Every week day, more n more of their nonsense. I have to listen to them tell me how I should bring my children up? My children to homework 3 years ahead of their level when i have time. I don't need some stranger judging me and telling me what is right and wrong for my kids, whatever this countries law says. Opppss.. i think i've diverted from the topic.. sorry..

Back to that, my god shows my the path, i just follow it. I've met many in my live. They tell me:" I'm glad i met you." , I think and sometimes say:" I wish I never met you." I was a lot less damaged before that. Now the spirit are with me.. I feel them in the plants, the sun, the water, the animals, the people. I will fight this, happily loose my life if It happens(jeez that would suck). Because to me, I tried, with all my might. So anyhow, I did not fail, and I kept my promise.

Jinny and CO...........ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE. But that's in the pure sence of human.

I feel it may take you quite some-time to find.

WE will wait for.

Time will tell, not the one.

BLUE

yo DEEP, I have plenty, thank you, just not from this government... yet :p. Since I am stuck here anyway, might as well make use of my time wisely. Oooooo... i just saw the article on sexual harassment, woo hoo... I'm sooooo experience in that. Another sleepless but productive night :) plus the rest of the work for tonight.. peace out! Love all. We have to love all. Or prove and show me a god then I will agree with your opinion.

Ok...........Jinny! I will say that god is there. You have won. You and your kind have distroyed my beliefs in all that my loving mum's and Dad's have given me and you have now taken away.

Now I........ you for what you have said.

DEEP: Hah? wat are u tokking about? I have not won yet.. i am working on it... It is a long battle I have and the government is trying their best to kick me and my kids out :P.. they can try.. but i'm too much of a smart ass :P

Back to this topic.. while i was playing around on this playground called the internet which i'm in so in love with(hahaha, i really am), something pop-up which I thought would be good to share here. Take it if you believe, forget it if you don't.

When I was 18, this partner of mine who was a strong Hindu believer, has some family issues regarding properties and money. His brother started cursing him and sending him threatening letters on how he was going to get the gods to do thier evils on him(Hindus have many GODs, good and evil ones). One day after work, he came back and said he was very tired and not feeling well, he had a fever. He went to sleep.

He woke up about half an hour later, and i swear i am not making this up.. he got possessed and behaved exactly like on e of the evil hindu gods. He was out of his mind. Spoke is a high pitch voice just like how the hindus say this certain god behaves, he did exactly that. He did not recognize his mom, his best friends or me. Stood on one foot in that position u see hindus doing when they do their stuff. He clawed his own chest with his fingers and dug into his skin with tremendous strength, yanked his thick god chains off his neck, and even with 3 of his male buddies trying to control him, they couldn't. He became that strong.

Eventually after a few hours, we managed to take him to a temple where a priest practice, i suppose you can call it exorcism on him. He passed out for another 15 minutes. Woke up, couldn't remember a thing. Only that he felt drained and hungry.

tbc

There's a spirit story for you.

I believe in spirits because it is a form of energy source coming from out planet. Science cannot explain this still i reckon. or can they?

DEEP, what do you mean in your last post? are you being sarcastic? It's hard to tell from just reading words as they don't express as well as verbal and facial communication. I don't even know what you believe in. I know what i believe in, and i know that's what's important. Oh, and thx for da song, i've dedicated it as my good morning to all my friends online.

Spirits are all around us.. if we look back to ancient times, there are plenty of stories about them. Proof not so much. But some of the evidence that has been discovered on this planet does not want to be acknowledge by so called professionals with expensive pieces of papers that the society trust in so much what their opinions are. They deny these structures, and buildings and cravings, etc. because in their limited views, they just cannot accept it. Hold on.. i will find a link for anyone interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMGA9ZEoWag

and there are more of these around our planet. Explanation anyone. You see.. all you have to do, is let your mind free, and accept our reality, stop trying to fight it.

and what is my kind exactly? I don't know any kind like me... I feel like a human, like a computer, like an alien.. i can't sleep, i can't stop learning, i can't stop helping, i can't stop hurting, i can't stop fighting, i can't stop caring. What kind is that? god i wish i was normal. sigh

anyways. 2 more days till da weekend! hooray! no need to deal with all da gov crap.. yey! :) Have a great day.. appreciate all da contribution and sharing, cuzzzz Sharing is caring :)

The human spirit needs security, identity, love and peace, which only one God can give. If one believes in many gods there is no single character image, no security of being loved and deep inner peace as they are diverse in behaviour and indifferent to one's person. They are as fallen spirits even as every man.

"I have ever been taught,..there*fore,..to avoid..trying to find/found
a general*rule..applicable..to all spirits upon..the experiences of..any..one/of the..community of spirits..with which..I may come in contact.

Even in this..visit..we shall pay..to this sphere..we shall only be able to see..a part,..a fractional part,..of this immense sphere of evil-spirits,..

yet we shall..traverse an extent of space..far greater than if..you had traveled..over the whole of the/little..planet Earth..from which..we both have come.

In the spirit world..like draws to like..by a universal law,..and those..of entirely opposite*..natures..repel each other..so entirely that they..can never*..mingle..or even touch...beyond..the circle..in which each dwells.

We were now..in a narrow street,..such as it...must/have been..in the earthly city,..of its day..and..a short distance,..farther..brought us into a large-square..surrounded with..magnificent..palaces,[that reflected..the sad state..we were in..

their former..grandure..decepid/worn/torn..but..mere*..imprfect reflections..of their former-glory..

while before us..towered one..more splendid..in its prior-design..
than..all the others...yet all to my eyes..appeared dark,..stained with great/splashes..of blood,..and covered..with slimy fungus growth..which disfigured the..magnificence..and hung..in great repulsive-looking festoons,..like twisted-snakes,..from all the pillars..and cope-stones.;.of the buildings.

Black slimy mud oozed-up..through..the crevices of the marble pavement,..as though..the city floated..upon a foul-swamp,..and noisome-vapors..curled up/from the ground..and floated above..and around us..in fantastic..and horrible smoke-wreaths..like the huge phantoms..of past crimes.

Everywhere..were dark spirits..crawling across..the great square,..and in..and out of..the palace-doors,..driven onward by other..stronger..dark spirits..with lash..or spear.

Such cries of execration..as broke forth..from time to time,..such fearful oaths,..such curses..and imprecations,..it was truly/the pandemonium of..the lost souls..in the Infernal*regions!

And..over all..hung those..black-night/clouds
of..sorrow..and suffering..and wrongness..*incarnate.

"You will perceive,"..said Faithful/Friend,.."that here..there is a life..in no way*different..from the earthly-life..of such*a city at the time when..the one..of which this*is..the spiritual reflection,of..was..in the full zenith of its power,..

and when..the*..particles of*which..this is*formed..
were thrown off..from its material life..and drawn-down..by the force of attraction..to form*..this city..and..*these buildings,..fit dwellings..for..its current..spirit-ual-inhabitants;..today

and you will see..in the more modern/appearance..of many of the buildings..and..inhabitants..how/..it has been added to..from time to time..by..the same*process

which is going on..continuously.

You will notice..

Philo

You speak as if you have the answers. You have a theory.

The many dieties worshiped in Hinduism for example have different attributes and serve as guiding sources throughout life, they are strong willed and are by no means how you describe them, I have met many peaceful men/women who are Hindu, they are more at peace with themselves and the world than you are.

I base this conclusion on your previous post, the conviction in your words displayed an ignorance and disrespect toward beliefs other than your own.

A person who is secure and at peace accepts life the way it is and respects all point of views without condemnation.

till..through repeated experiences..and developments..it attains to such..a degree..of intellectual..and moral-consciousness..that it stands..upon..the same level..as its spiritual-guardians,

and..*then it..in turn becomes..the spiritual-guardian of..some new-born/soul

I have also..been taught..that the soul-germ..in its first_stage..is only..like a seed,..like,..in fact,..any other seed..in the minuteness..of its size..and powers.

It is,..in fact,..a spark..*of the Divine_Essence/containing in itself..all..that will constitute..the perfected human-soul...

Of its very essence..it is immortal..and..indestructible,..because..it is seed*from that which is..*Immortal..and..*Indestructible.

But..as a seed..has_to/be..sown..into the {material}-darkness..and degradation of the..material-earth..in order that it may germinate,..

so has the soul-seed..*to be sown..in*to..the corruptions..of matter,..first*..in its lower..and then..in its higher_forms.

Each animal..is in itself..A_type of..a soul-seed,..the human_type..mearly..being the highest*..of all,..

and each seed will..in turn..develop to the highest-degree..*possible for it*..through successive spheres..and experiences.

Some/schools..of thought hold that..the soul*..will progress more rapidly..if it is again..and again..returned to material-life..to be born anew,..in a fresh-form*..each time,..

and to live..over..again the experiences..
it has missed,..{victim/last time...oppressor..this*time..;or visa-versa]

we are ALL*..a work..in progress/process
..cast no stones..]

the life-experiences/..missed..or..needing to..expiate..in the mortal-form..the prior-wrongs..done..in a former incarnation.

The spiritual-children..of this school of thought..will indeed be thus...be returned to earth again,..and..for them..each new-lesson will have to be worked-out..in an earthly_life.

"But..it does not follow..that this experience..will be the lot..of all spirits.

There are other schools..who maintain..that the spirit spheres..contain means for..the education of the soul..quite as useful..and expeditious;..

and..with..the spiritual children committed..to their charge..the totally different*course..of sending them..to gather*experience..in the lower-spheres..rather than..*to earth,..will-be..pursued.

[such like..as we see being done here/..now]

They*..will be..made*..to live over*..in memory..their past earth-life
and..to expiate..in the*spirit..the wrongs done..in their earthly existences.

As each soul differs in its character..or individuality,..so each must be trained..by a different method,..

[clearly..us earth-incarnations..
are the hard-cases..{doudting/thomas}...types]

oe else we..would all*..resemble..each other..so exactly
that a monotonous*..sameness..would result..and there would be none of that..variety..and contrast..which give a charm..to earthly life,..as well as revealing..different aspects..of good[god]

and..this..I believe..we will still continue..to do
in the..celestial spheres.

that most of the spirits here..fancy themselves
still..*in the earthly counterpart..and wonder why..all looks so dark.and foul.and dingy.

In like manner..this same city..has its spiritual prototype..in the higher-spheres to which all..that was*..fair and good..and noble..in its life has been attracted,..and where those/spirits..who were good and true..have gone to dwell;

for in the lives of cities..as of men the spiritual-emanations..
are attracted upwards..or downwards..according as there is good or evil
in the deeds..done in them.

And as the deeds done..in this city..have..in evil..*far exceeded those
which were good,..so this city is far larger,..far more thickly
peopled in this sphere..than..in those above.

In the ages to come..when the spirits who/are here now..shall have progressed,
that heavenly counterpart..will be fully finished..and fully peopled,..and then
will this place..we gaze at now..have crumbled into dust--faded..from this sphere."

Thus..in our wanderings..we shall*..only visit those..with whom either
from nationality..or temperament...we have..*some germ..of feeling,*
..however slight,..in common..with."

spiritual guardians..who from the celestial spheres..superintend..its welfare
and educate..the soul..by which*means..as*seem best..to*them..in their wisdom.

and for them..each new lesson..will have*to be
worked-out..in*..an earthly life.

"But it does not follow..that this experience
will be..the lot..of all spirits.

oops seem to be repeating...

[anyhow..
this is wrote..by quote...
for those who would..
of this..take note]

thats all..i feel.;.
needs be wrote

other bits here
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4008&page=0
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11183&page=0

heck..scatterd all over

http://new-birth.net/booklet/Wanderer_a4.pdf
http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/sacredthemesconly.html
http://www.divinetruth.info/naturallovepathdocuments.htm

http://www.celestinevision.com/celestine/forum/index.php
http://forum.worldfreemansociety.org/index.php?sid=51c69948cab332b2bec5fe2f4eaa8a5a
http://civilrights.org.nz/forum/index.php
http://morgana.forumco.com/default.asp

http://www.divinetruth.info/Downloads/CD/NaturalLove/PDFs/Franchezzo%20-%20A%20Wanderer%20In%20The%20Spirit%20Lands.pdf

anyhow thats it..4 now

make of it..as you will..
as for me..this work is done* .

Very ambiguous, Philo,

<<The human spirit needs security, identity, love and peace, which only one God can give.>>

What exactly do you mean by “human spirit”?

Do you mean consciousness and emotions? If so, then demonstrate that, not only an imagined being, but specifically one (as opposed to many) can provide security, identity, love and peace.

Or do you mean a ghostly soul that leaves the physical body when one dies? If so, then demonstrate that such a thing exists.

<<If one believes in many gods there is no single character image, no security of being loved and deep inner peace as they are diverse in behaviour and indifferent to one's person.>>

I could just as easily assert that if one believes in many gods, then there is more security and deep inner peace as they are loved by many. Not just one.

There, we’re even.

The belief in evil spirits is as old as time. The belief springs from the nature of man as a seeking, curious, speculative creature, providing him if not with the answers to the impounderables of life, at least with a faith to steady him and give him direction.

Down the ages ring questions as to the nature of humankind; where on the spectrum of might, power and understanding do men and women belong? Are they masters of their own destiny or playthings of the gods? How will the battle of good and evil end? Is death an end or a beginning?

In what we like to think of as more primitive times man speculated and symbolised his answers in story: what we call myth. What causes night and day? Why do the seasons come and go? How? What's the origin of fire? Flood? Disaster?

Every culture, it would seem, has its mythology, needs answers to the unknown that satisfies an inner need. Some people need religion to give them direction.

There are many Christian denominations and other religions that have ceremonies for driving out devils and evil spirits.

The New Testament tells that Jesus Christ exorcised devils. Jesus also gave His apostles the power to drive out devils. In the Roman Catholic Church, an exorcism is a ceremony that consists of a series of prayers recited over the possessed person.

In the A.D. 200's the church established the office of "exorcist," one who performs an exorcism. Priests hold this office but require a bishop's permission to perform an exorcism. The church's sacrament of baptism and the blessing of holy oil and holy water include prayers that ask God for protection from attacks by devils.

Nicnoto,
Of course you on your own premise condemn yourself as a disturbed person as you also condem. Learn the difference between condemnation and making a judgement on a point of view. Look at the confusion jinny is in as she cannot accept life the way it is.
"A person who is secure and at peace accepts life the way it is and respects all point of views without condemnation."

AJ Philips
With many spirits or personal gods there is conflict as there is no absolute righteousness. No right behaviour to follow; just depends on who you believe is right.

Jinny.

I was pulling your leg, but I think you might want to seek some professional help. While I was digging around in your head, you came up with this.....

"and what is my kind exactly? I don't know any kind like me... I feel like a human, like a computer, like an alien.. i can't sleep, i can't stop learning, i can't stop helping, i can't stop hurting, i can't stop fighting, i can't stop caring. What kind is that? god i wish i was normal. sigh

I wish you all the best.

P/S Dont reply to me again.

BLUE

lexi..<<..where on the spectrum..of might,..power..and understanding..do men and women belong?>>that much depends..on where/when they are...in power

or what level of under-standing
or what might..might be right..[compared to the might..of nature..mans power is virtually helpless]...mainly because even its science lack clear understanding...[it completly..is incapable of making the dead live]..life..can only come..FROM life.

<<Are they masters..of their own destiny>....mostly yes..but many have been decieved...by peer grouops to think they are powerless..[ie need elites..just to think..FOR them..and tell-them..what to do ...as well as when...they are PERMITTED..to do so..[and when they cant]

<<or..playthings of the gods?>>...gods..is a missused..term..[god..{good}..is one]
others may decieve..themselves to be god..but only one can make life..and he sustains..it for all living

<<How will..the battle*of..good..and evil end?>.
it ends in peace..[only evil needs to fight..because only evil..is full of fear]
peace..is as easy as not hurting others...[and our spirits...are immortal...[yes vile can kill the flesh..but the spirit..is eternal]...and there vile can only do its vile..on others equally vile..[karma]

<<Is death..an end..or a beginning?}
death..is allways an end..of a certain...stage..of development
the egsisting...then dies...and the new is born...this continues for eternity
[ie many..ends[deaths]..but also..its the only way..to get to the next level

<<What causes night and day?..>>the earth rotating

<<Why do the seasons..come and go?>>the earth titting..on its axis

<<What's..the origin of fire?>>the release of gas..from the substance...holding the gas[then an ignition source]...wood...dont burn...[heat it and it releases...a gas[smoke]...that then can burn

<<Flood?>>water..falling faster..than it can drain away...
from an area that restricts..its out-flow

<<Disaster?...disaster..is when men ignorantly presume saftey...
when clearly they had hope...not judgment

AJ/quote<<..What/do you mean..by..“human spirit”?>>
that essential..life essence sustaining our living...that electical-activity...some call autoniomous-reflex...but that does all..life's..process...[life/emotions/logic..sense/thought...desire/life]..

ie god is the cause...origon of it...it flows..into..and out of us..
via the various realms..[heaven/hell]...the direction of the IN-flux.....
and outdflow..can vary..depending on where the current thought flow comes from

<<Do you mean consciousness>>and..UN-concious...[active and re-active]

<<emotions?>>are the affect..of outside circumstance...
veted via our concious[and unconcious]..it flows from us..into heaven...[if love good..etc]

and flows to hell..is bad/negative/hurtfull..injurous..to self or other

and yes..there can be a feed-back loop..
that can help..[make better/heal]...and/or hinder..[make worse/sick]

<<demonstrate..that>>i just did..using logic

cut from previous post

aj/continued..quote..<<only an imagined..being,>>....are you...'being',..real?
[the proof..lies with-in..you]

you have the freewill to prove/or disproove it..*for yourself

BUT..IF*..YOU GOT PROOF...
ITS A LIE..PRESENT IT..!

specifically..THE_one...does..provide life...logic...light...love

thus..<<security>>..as much as we need...for securing..of life/logic/reason..love..peace of mind...and a living loving heart..etc,

<<identity,>>>thats what we get gifted..VIA..this gift of life..

[to develop our..next body..[the astral-body...
animated by our soul..body...
kept alive..by gods living spirit

<<love..and peace.}.these only you can find..with*in..you

i cant give..*them to you..[nor can god]..
your a freewill being
its up to you..to get your*self..into this state of being..

<<do you mean/soul..leaves the physical-body..when one dies?>>..yes

but also with astral-traveling...and when..dreaming..
and some forms of...adverse-drug's..and other stimulents..
[meditation/emotion..mindless-ness...and autoniomouse reflex..

[and some passive..nonjudgmental..unconcious-mind/states..hype-gnosis]]

<<can you..demon*strate..that such a thing exists.>>>ok..ya watching...?

there ...

wannna..see it AGAIN?

ready...here we go..!

there

see it that time
ohhh...ok..

then try it yourself..*

<<there is no single character..*image,>>...

of course-not*...you cant..'see'..electicity..[cause]..
only the affect...lol

There,...now..we’re even.

YES..aint life grand...we all end up..*equall...in the end
even those..who like..to get it..in their end..[or..in others ends]

anyhow..this con-decending...clear-voyant...intercessive...mediation..
betwixt spirit...and being...ends...ok file...cut/paste...send..*

more quote?

"Son! they are living souls who in their earthly lives doomed hundreds of their fellow men to die this
dreadful death, and knew no pity, no remorse, in doing so. Their own cruelties have kindled these fierce
flames of passion and hate in the breast of their many victims, and in the spirit world these fiery germs have
grown till they are now a fierce flame to consume the oppressors. These fires are fed solely by the fierce
cruelties of those they now consume; there is not here one pang of anguish which has not been suffered a
hundred fold more in the persons of these spirits' many helpless victims. From this fire these spirits will
come forth touched by a pity, born of their own sufferings, for those they wronged in the past, and then will
be extended to them the hand of help and the means of progression through deeds of mercy as many and as
great as have been their merciless deeds in the past.

What gifts does fantasy offer the believer? With its origins in mythology and folklore it explains the inexplicable. It takes objects and scenes and reshapes them, bringing magic and the irrational into our world.

When fantasy becomes the battleground of Good and Evil, as it does in the writings of such authors as C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkien - we call it high fantasy - a developed poetic art form which gives meaning to life, enhancing the primary or real world, leading to the solution of problems and the development of characters to maturity.

What is it that has made The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, and even
Harry Potter the best-selling paperbacks that they are? In our troubled times, it has been suggested children and adults need these gutsy fictional characters more than ever they did to harden the heart
"though the body be soft." The uses of enchantment, while at the same time documenting fantasy's power to nurture the faculty of the imagination, encourages an expansion of the mind and nourishes and keeps alive a sense of wonder - all essential ingredients in any worthwhile education.

Lloyd Alexander's words:

"Fantasy presents the world as it should be ... sometimes heartbreaking but never hopeless ...if we listen carefully it may tell us what someday we may be capable of achieving."

Philo

I would love to engage in continued banter with you but I'm pretty sure there will be no resolve.

It is clear you won't come to any reason, your views are your views, however incorrect I believe they may be and like many others I have come across, your perception displays a closed mindedness that cannot be swayed.

Thank you for your response.

Jinny,

I apologise. I meant that the person who was supposed to die earlier (doctor's prognosis) actually died at the time the cat had foreseen.

Deep Blue,

"A story comes to mind about the pied piper, ( and the rats did die ) ..."

Rather cryptic. However, like many fairytales and old poems, this is based on fact. The "pied piper" (a charismatic figure) entered a German village and sold the idea of a better life elsewhere to many of the young people, "rats". Many joined him in this venture, however, the ship sunk and all perished. Poems like "A Pocket full of Posies" and "Hey Diddle, Diddle" refer to the Black Death, and a court scandal where a member of royalty ran off with a courtier, respectively. "Humpty Dumpty" refers to a lost battle. Possibly, all such old poems have their genesis in fact. For those interested, research of such peoms reveal a rich vein of information.

As for animals, apart from the solace they provide; indeed the sheer joy in just observing non-human creatures, they have been able to predict/aid in more earthly states. Dogs have predicted when their owners were about to have a cardiac event - in one case, so scaring a co-worker that he promply visited his doctor - the result - an immediate by-pass operation. The owner heart-patient had taken his dog to work, the dog moved to a co-worker and stared fixedly at him the entire day. In other cases, animals have predicted epilectic fits ... Autistic children have gained great benefit when exposed to dolphins.The list goes on. I think animals are closer to the idea of angels; certainly "guardian angels" don't seem to follow any brief.

The much vaunted concept of "man-killers" is based more on lurid beliefs than fact. In Malaya there is a saying that a tiger will not attack a human because lines of the Koran are written on the forehead. Rangers will tell you that "man-killers" have developed from a set of circumstances; not an inate trait in animals.

As others have observed, many have experienced inexplicable events.

Many, many years ago as a teenager, I spent Xmas holidays with my parents in an typical large colonial house in, then, Bukit Timor Rd, Johor Bahru. I did not speak Malay at that time.

A couple of events occurred, one of which was quite frightening - no apparition, but a alarming incongruence of light, darkness and objects. On asking my parents if the place was haunted, I was assured with laughter it wasn't. However, on my next holiday, in a residence elsewhere, my parents admitted that the previous house had a reputation in the district. In fact they had been informed of it before moving in by the DPEO. An Australian soldier had been tortured and killed in a subterranean bathroom.

The idea of whether the supernatural exists, or doesn't, does not concern me. When told of someone's eerie experience, I accept that they believe it. Surely that is enough.

Philo: *Snort*

Nicnoto: I agree with most of your views.

Danielle: You seem to always have interesting points. A lot more accepting then many I know.

I still agree with StG.

Btw, i have been seeing a pretty good psychiatrist. He was very depressing at the beginning, he's not helping me with anything, but he keeps wanting to see me more. He said I don't seem to have any mental illnesses, but he can't seem to figure me out. :) I find him quite an interesting study. He's expensive but the government's paying as I can't afford him.

If you have noticed, i like to joke around alot coz it's fun, and that's what life's about.. it's about enjoying every single moment of it, and appreciating that you have your life, you have you health, you have your love ones, you have whatever you have, and not what you don't have. I have my reasons for doing what i do, I don't need to sleep to be normal as it is not proven how much of sleep the brain actually needs. What I do in my own personal time is my choice and should be respected and not judged. But this is where we are, we live in a judgmental society.

We like to judge appearances, character, actions, behavior, etc. A lot of ppl try to fix in because when they don't, they get condemned by society. No worries, I'm used to it. It's my choice to be this was, my responsibility, so i suffer the consequences.

I just share this with the more normal people out there..

Have a break, have a laugh.. kitkat doesn't make you laugh... but this does :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAjiiEOzOV8&feature=player_embedded

Live a little will ya'll

UOG,
I'm afraid I'm not bothering reading your ranting. You are in your own little world of fantasy.

For those cultures / persons who believe in spirit beings they will have mental experiences of spirits / demons. For those free from belief in spirit beings / demons live a much more emotionally secure life, not moved by emotions.

For me there are no spirit beings independent of a body. God is not a spirit being - GOD IS SPIRIT.

to anyone...but philo..
[who dosnt read..that..he cant comprehend]

quote/philo..<<..For those..free from belief..in spirit beings>>
yes and elect-tricity cant kill you...and gravity only works on those believing..the delusion of gravity...and flying your kite in a thunder storm..is completly safe..[if you only believe it...lol]

those..not believing..in spirit-beings..and/or..?..<<demons..live a much more...emotionally secure life>>.just as the lamb...is at complete peace...with the lion...[...untill..that one day..the lion tastes blood]

unbelievers..<<,..not moved by emotions.>>seems rather lame..[but clearly..if your not reading..the QUOTED extracts...you will offer a non specific generalisation..as rebuttal...[clearly it saves you having to read...and specificlly reply to a particular point...lol]

<<For me..there are no spirit-beings..independent of a body.>>.
see a typical faulse_point of reply....i NEVER said..that

i specificlly revealed..we contain...the ones...living spirit..inside all of us...inside various bodies....[much like the layers of an onion...working from the outside..in

we have the aural-body..the material body...the astral body...the soul-body...and the spirit-body...that contains the one gods living spirit...[just like electicity flow...activates your computa]

but then..the next point...[clearly because he dosnt read my posts...[again contradictory..to what i QUOTE]..<<God..is not a spirit being>>.

yep/..i KNOW...glad you do too
god is..all*spirit...'being'
sustaining..even the most vile..[or most ignorant]....THEIR living

<<GOD IS SPIRIT..>...yes your induably..correct

god is the..*one..[only*..spirit]..

we..ARE..{all living}..Are animated..into being..living...
by possesing..holding..retaining..[with-in]..us..
HIS..LIVING..LOVING..spirit..

his spirit..being*..all*..being*
[or rather...animating..all*..of our beings..]

{the truth...the light...[sustaining]..the logic..
[into]..the life..so we realise..the love...]..of self..[good/god]..

and neighbour...[good/god]
that we do to the least...we do to him

see you..see our fat-her...see us...see our father
it aint no fairy tale...its simple fact

UOG: that's not fair! How come u can use 3 dots together n I can, and u can type so much n we can't.. What's the secret, come on, share with us. We wanna be able to do that as well! :)

i just..*let the word_count..*tell me..when i reatch..350
it takes more time...but thats/what..its job is.

mine..is to*..quote

so..here we go..again*

''even while it revolted me,..the majestic power of this man's intellect..and will...The kingly sense of power..
over even such a motley crew..as these,..the feeling that even in Hell..*he reigned as-if..by a right,..seemed to
minister to his pride..and love of dominion..even in the midst of his awful surroundings.

Looking at him..I beheld him for one brief moment,..not as I saw him and..as he saw*..these disgusting-creatures round him,saw him....but as he still appeared*..in his own*..eyes.. which even after all these centuries..were not opened..to his*..true state,..*his real_self*.

I saw him..as a haughty handsome-man,..with cruel clear-cut features,
hard expression,..and eyes like a wild vulture,..yet withal possessing a certain beauty of form.. a certain
power to charm.

All that was repulsive and vile was hidden by the earthly envelope, not revealed..as now in
all the nakedness..of the spirit.

I saw his court..and his companions change back to the likeness of their earthly lives,..and I knew*..that to
each..and all they appeared..just the same in their*..own eyes,

all were alike unconscious of the horrible change
in themselves,..*yet perfectly conscious..of the change in each of their companions.

Were all unconscious?..No!
not quite..all.

There was one man crouching in a corner,..his mantle drawn
over his disfigured face,..whom I perceived to be..fully conscious of his own vileness..as well as the vileness
of all who surrounded him.

And..in this man's heart..there had sprung up a desire,..hopeless,as it seemed to himself,..*for better things,..for a path to open before him..which,..however hard and thorny,..*might lead him from this night of Hell..and
give him even at this eleventh hour..the hope*..of a life removed from the horrors of this place..and these
associates;

and..as I looked I knew it was to this man..that I was sent,..though how I was to help him I knew
not,..I could not guess.

I only felt that the power
which had led me so far
would open up my path..and show me the way.

*Jinny* doesn't sound confused *Philo* but mayhaps she is at risk of losing her abode and place of refuge for her and her cubs.

(Oh, the Animal <-> Human bond and the potential therapeutic benefits that can potentially flow from healthy relationships in this area is well recognised I believe, to the extent that a variety of people suffering a variety of pathologies have been matched up with say dogs with great benefits - and not just dogs of course.)

and mayhaps she is merely taking a breather from having her mind full of the often intrusive and invasive mechanations of the legal process.

And mayhaps she is not 100% certain on how best to proceed and or how, when and where she may land on her feet again if she receives an adverse finding.

..

There is a nice expression in Indonesian - "Kasihan" - which I am familiar with which doesn't really have a single word translation into English, but encapsulates ideals such as empathy, best wishes, to feel concerned for.

Of course, in much more closely knit societies like Indonesia, *Jinny's* place would be full of well intentioned neighbors, reli's and friends until such point as some "reasonable" solution could be reached.

They are in many ways a far more open and "extended family" orientated people than we in Oz are and I strongly suspect that they have far fewer people that leave the earth for reason of loneliness, isolation or broken heart.

jinny,

I surely hope that you don't lose your home, especially your children. Unfortunately, the government seem to use a set of points which has no relevance to the reality of a specific situation. One size does not fit all. On the other hand, the government also have a bad record of not 'seeing' abuse/neglect.

I don't think I said that I didn't believe in an afterlife. It is that I just don't know; I tend to lean toward skepticism ... would like proof.

There have been many reports of Near-death Experiences (NDEs) ... enough to result in scientific enquiry. A joint scientific US/UK study into near-death experiences begun two years ago is to be completed in 2011.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7621608.stm

I am a little surprised that writers here haven't mentioned Julian Jaynes' Bicameral Mind. This phenomenon still exists and is not related to mental illness.

DreamOn, For Jinny I certainly agree she needs - "Kasihan" - which encapsulates ideals such as empathy, best wishes, and feel concerned for.

Danielle,
On three occasions I have had near death experiences. The first one when I was 11 years suffering from high temperatures from measles and my mother bathing my head in ice water. It was the middle of the day and I was screaming at her to turn off the light. She insisted the light was not on.For several minutes I was looking down on my body about 2.5 meters below, and I was pushing at the light.

The light is the focus occurring in the conscious mind and my out of body experience was my consciousness leaving my body.

“Rather cryptic. However, like many fairytales and old poems, this is based on fact. The "pied piper" (a charismatic figure) entered a German village and sold the idea of a better life elsewhere to many of the young people, "rats". Many joined him in this venture, however, the ship sunk and all perished.”

Jinny I did not. :)

Dan: ”Is there a “Nether World” of evil spirits?”

In my opinion? Nope. Boring, but nope. I don’t think man is evil, not real “Hollywood Evil” ... just cruel and stupid at times. I would like to believe there is, I try hard and fail. Similar to trying to believe in a deity – any would do. But again my opinion is that it is man just being good and compassionate at times or just plain mental.

Blue” A story comes to mind about the pied piper, ( and the rats did die ) and what a weak attempted action to display such small and out of date thinking..”

Never happened. And I am seriously considering bringing slander charges.

Not true of a good many Australians Dream On.

There are many families who take on other families kids and relatives for short and long term periods. I assisted raising my nephew with my children for many years when he was younger.

People get on with it and do not discuss the assistance they give to their extended families Dream On until the issue is raised in conversation. A friend of mine I'd not seen for a year had been there for her niece this past year [her niece lives with her] and a working colleague has just finished raising her friend's child after many years.

I could not count the number of kids I have assisted in raising and teenagers of all ages fed and clothed over 7 years. Many returning every second year until they got their licences and lives on track.

Sure, there are many insulated Aussie families who do not keep in touch with their relatives or assist them in times of need, however, there are many families who do assist their extended families over many years. I hear the first hand stories in workplaces. Many Aussies get on with it and prefer, for privacy reasons and out of respect to their adult sisters and brothers, not to advertise that they are raising their nieces, nephews, cousins or friends' kids.

Thanks all for the concern. No worries, as I have always been a strong person. My only weakness is having a soft heart.

Even if I do get kicked out, so what? I like it here, and so do the 'cubs'. We all know the gov comes up with all their so call law because they 'think' it will help solve problems. From what I observe, they are not solving much. They are trying, but they are addressing the wrong issues.

I want to go home. I didn't come here to be able to live in this country. I was on top of the world where I was before deciding to give up everything and move here. So what if I have it tough now. I can do it. I am doing it.

I don't want to share my personal story, because I do not need "kasihan" or "kesian". Why should I, because others do not know what is right and wrong?

My kids are happy, so am I. I am not happy with how the gov is treating me like a prostitute, I am not happy with a certain person for lying to me about everything. I know how to take action, and I am doing that.

What is my problem compared to the rest of the world problem. People are dying, and suffering because they have forgotten everything. I am not worried about myself. I am worried about this planet, and this is what is important to me, because it is my 'cubs' future. I do not want them to suffer what I have suffered.

And.. just for you to know. I do NOT appreciate how some of you doubt my knowledge. I might be younger then you, but it does NOT mean I know less then you. You are the one with the problem of not knowing what to believe because you are so brain-washed.

I have done enough research and studies on the human brain. Do not preach you religion here, as you have no right to bestow on another human of your beliefs. If you belief what you belief, fine. practice it in your own way. Why do you have to make others approve your believes? You be happy with it. I don't see you point of having to debate with everyone here that yours is right, and others is wrong.

Most of you have so limited knowledge it just amuses me reading the stuff you write. I mean really, I actually get a kick out of it. Get real. Where on earth do you live? I don't think you live on this planet, coz the stuff you come up with is a bunch of BS!

Most of you comment based on Christianity. Too bad, the law is not based on that. Go to your church, and argue with your GOD there. Don't come up with ridiculous theories on a forum. Because, you are wasting other people's time, having to read this BS. Wake up, and smell the roses.

To end my note. All those who disses Islams(thank god i wasn't born one), you are as bad as they are. Live with it, because that is how others look at you as. Please don't even bother to contribute, because you are NOT CONTRIBUTING. PERIOD

hi pied-piper...great to see you...i enjoyed philo's experience..re the near-death experience...and like most of you would love to help jinny...achieve...the outcome..she has earned

i dont think of you as un-knowledged...in fact am amased about how much you manage todo...and still remain so cheerfull

im not sure if any remember jewel
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/user.asp?id=55087&show=history

she went through much the same as jinny
i found a link to here story..but the link had been 'black'-listed
[she was user 1 from memory]...

i guess we could use a topic about how to help those...fighting to keep their kids...ok from memory jewel..was an adoptive parent...but she copped the same vilification..from the same system

but im drifting off the topic...

so i wont muddy the waters anymore with a quote
just thank all who contibuted..you..*all*..have so much KNOWLEDGE

i thank god..you use it wisely
[would like to hear more about near-deaths?]

of course its not egsactly the same thing...[from memory...only one third get the light experience...{and a case has been made for that to be..*in some casses..neurological]...but science canmt make life..let alone explain death..and we all die*

and we al get born..[AGAIN]..

life is about the journey
may your path be made sure

Changing my name to The Pied Piper was my attempt to become anon but everyone kept calling me Jewel for so long afterwards that it was, in the end, rather silly of me.

I, she, me, was, is, want to be, am prevented from now being… a foster parent OUG. DoCS or now CS have not allowed me to have children since February, I am told there was some assumption made that I am not available but this assumption didn’t stop them coming to meet with me - print outs of my online posts in hand. They will deny this is any form of punishment because the power to deny is undeniable.

They did it again, this time they took 5 children suddenly (6 years old and under), no transition; some had again been with me nearly two years. I did not complain this time after previous punishments but still find myself treated as if I did. Go figure. My hands are raised, they win, but I suspect they want something more than a win and I don't understand what it is.

I’m unaware of Jinny’s problem. I’ve caught hints about housing difficulties? And a rather strong feeling that today is not a good day for her and she is rather cross or fed up. Strange, because didn’t we all just wake up to another day in paradise?

they are..what they are..[im not really sure..that they even know who they are supposed to be serving...*[the children]

anyhow im sorry i couldnt help
and learnt the same lesson..in trying to help jinny

so i return to that i do know

dont know about paridise...
[im still quoting..*these extracts..from hell]..lol

You seem surprised,..but for..many countless-ages,..as men on earth reckon time..(and therefore*..how much longer..to us who labor here), have the messengers come here[to hell]..seeking the lost?

Long before Christ/came down to earth*..there were spirits laboring here.’

“‘Was the land..of After-death..organized very much as it is now
even before the..opening..of the Christian era?’

“‘Yes,..save that more spirits..as a rule..had*to..pass through Hell.

The more primitive a
man is at death as a general rule,..the less will his spiritual-side be developed...The less his
spiritual-side is developed,..the longer*..he will be on the astral plane,..and the more likely to pass..*for a time..into Hell.

But there comes a point in the development of man..when his
intellect becomes developed..at the expense of his spiritual_side,..and then..sooner or later
the advance of civilization..will have a set-back.

“‘Thus in the days of the Greeks..and Romans the intellect.outran the spiritual_development,..and so Hell became crowded with men/women..[beings]..who refused*..to believe in God..or a future life.

The fall of that civilization,..though for a time it threw back civilization,..made it easier for men..in the West..to develop their spiritual side.

At times I fear that a similar..catastrophe may once more be necessary...But God is merciful,..and we..*from this side are
anxiously working..to infuse new spiritual-life..into the world without..the necessity of such..a disaster.

“‘In early,..primitive days..the astral plane,..or Hell held almost all..who passed over..for a long time.’

“‘But..this seems unjust,..for they knew no better,’..I said.

“‘It was not unjust;..it was simply..a great natural law.
[sepperation of sheep/goats..tares/wheat...good/bad..etc]

Those..whose whole lives..were devoted to fighting..and cruelty would naturally..go on acting in the same way for a long-time after death.

It would only be after..a long period spent on this side..that they would*..begin to desire*..a different kind of life.’

“‘All those..who resisted..the temptation/to obsess..would probably remain on the astral-plane..till

they had developed sufficiently to pass upward..to the spiritual plane.

At the same time,..the tendency to obsess*..among primitive people is very strong,..and therefore many fall..natural;ly}..to Hell.’

“‘Is it..the whole course..of our life
that fixes the particular division..of Hell into..which..we finally fall,..or is it..the type*..of obsession..which we practice.’

“‘Many old men..pass almost at once..to Hell.

They have,..outworn their astral-bodies..almost as much as they have their physical-bodies.

These will sink..down to the division..corresponding with that type of sin..which has predominated*..in their*lives..hate,..lust,..gossip/faulsejudgment..and so forth.

But those..who pass over in early..or middle life have not yet worn out their astral..bodies,..nor completely developed..their character.

Their division..is that which/corresponds with the type of obsession which..*they have practiced.

That is the worst type..of obsession.’{first]

“I interrupted,..‘I understand...In my own case I obsessed for drink,..lust,..and..finally for..revenge*...The latter,..being a more spiritual-sin,..dragged me down..*deeper..than..would the
other two types..of obsession.’

“My rescuer continued:..‘At the same/time,..the type*-of life..a man has lived..very-largely..decides the type of obsession which is likely to tempt him most.

A lustful man,..if..*he falls into obsessing,..will probably do it for the purpose of satisfying..his lust,..and so/will fall..ultimately into the division..in which lust predominates..

NEXT quote..“I..have no very clear-idea..of what took place
in that..temporary/rest-house,..the light..was so intense that I was practically blind..while there...But at the same time..I gained some
rest.

A feeling of peace..and hope seemed to fill..that building,..utterly unlike the/atmosphere..in any of the ordinary buildings..in Hell.

“To me..a man used to speak..*words of comfort..and hope,..and my spirit seemed to..grow more quiet...Day after day..I used to hear singing,..*real singing,..sweet..and beautiful;

oh!..how different..from the horrible discord..I had heretofore
heard..in Hell..designated by/the name of singing.

“At length the messenger..who had brought me to the house..said,..‘Now you must go/back..strengthened by your rest here..to the fourth division.

Once there..you must*get..some companion..to come-back..with you.

When you have done this,..return..to this rest-house with
him,..and here..you will meet one..whom..*you drove from your side..long-years/ago.’..

Back to the topic.

Ok, ok, I have had a few NDE, self inflicted. My brain doesn't want to stop. When there is a problem, I need to understand it, then I cam move on. The last NDE experience I had I personally feel like it has jump started my brain(caused by stress, not self inflicted injuries), the last one happened 3 months ago. Like how a computer gets rebuild and rebooted to perform better. Anyway, that's personal. I studied computers at a young age, thus my brain seems to think it should work like one?

As discussed, I've scanned through some, and read some good postings. I have seen others getting bothered by evil spirits, because they believe in it. It always goes back to their religion. Because the books they read, the 'thing' they practice, has made them believe such things exist.

Is it that hard to accept the fact that heaven and hell has not been proven, it is an illusion of your mind thanks to what you have seen and heard. Yea.. good and evil spirits. You are a spirit, in a human body, You create your own spirits, the way you want to belief. When i was 5, i saw my friends, who were playing at night, screaming that they all(a few of them) saw ghost. How is it they saw, and I didn't. How is it, they got possessed, I haven't.

Spirit=Energy=Life=Reality=YOU

Wake up

Do not start discussions using religion as a based. Religion was created by humans not that long ago. You have forgotten who you are. You have let other humans beliefs, make your life what it is now.

Do not ever degrade another religion, because if theirs is bad, so is yours in their beliefs

OUG I should point out you did help me, a lot, heaps, you got me thinking and so did the other people here. You also suggested other people to go listen to and learn from and I did and you made me think more about where power is and what it is and how people use it.

I am sad to not see Foxy still here but CJ has stopped it being a big worry. She's still here in spirit perhaps. :)

Any minute now I am expecting to grasp what is going on with Jinny and I am dreading I will hear what my imagination is already telling me.

This journey we are on, I want a damn map.

The Pied Piper,
You asked for a map; "I want a damn map". There is no individual map that is the reason God has given you intelligence to make decisions. The teachings of Christ give us good guidelines on right actions. Desire justice and mercy and demonstrate love to your neighbour. Pray for wisdom from God the Father of spirit in your personal decisions.

Do not worry about what the future holds.

I should be spending time writing my books, but the confusion I see with a life here bugs me. UOG has tried to make me read about your past Jewel? I don't have the time unfortunately for me.

I am sure I would agree with you though, that what the gov and DOCS, CSO has done. It is not your wrong doing. It is theirs. We suffer in silence... but for how long.

For you, I will go through your postings when I have time, because it involves children. They do not know what damage they are doing to children by practicing their limited knowledge. Out future is the children. For we want them to live in the best place possible.

No one is going to take mine away as long as I am alive. I had enough of keeping silent this time, this is why I am here.

I feel you pain, and I know pain better then anyone else. It is not right what they have done to you. All of you. It is not right.

It will be my life mission, to spread what I know, to give you the strength to fight for what you believe, to not let others tell you how to live. I fight a battle that I have never read of. But I can do it, because I believe.

For all you's that question spirits. If it is that important to you, listen to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BeBRsAu8WM

Musicians have great messages. Better then what religious books can teach you. Take the good messages, leave the bad. Ying and Yang, Black and White, Right and Wrong, Heaven and Hell, Dark and Light, Positive and Negative, Truth and Lies, Life and Death.

Only you have the power to make life what it is. Do not question things that needs no questioning. Question the things that matters to you.

UOG, it is an illusion.. you make the world how you want to view it. Thanks for trying, but you have to deal with your own demons first before you can truly help others.

Do not judge, what you do not know. Judge yourself. Do good, and good will come to you. It might take time, and pain, but it will come. Because we are all spirits, the humans, the animals, the plants. This is the difference why we are gifted with life. You just haven't realized it the way I have.

stop trying to think like a computer..or gain learning..[lol]..from songs...try real science...quote

http://www.science20.com/news_articles/string_theory_testing_untestable
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/inourtime/inourtime_comments_theoryeverything.shtml

String theorists..said our universe is 10-dimensional but during the big bang,..6 of those 10 dimensions..curled up into a tiny ball..and the remaining '4'..(they count time as a dimension..even though it relies on the other three dimensions)..expanded explosively,..providing us with the universe we know and love,..i

How did these..six*dimensions..compactify?

There's no mathematical basis for topology and properties of these higher-dimensional universes...

Some even proposed..M-theory(11-dimensions)..to get away from focusing on strings entirely.(1)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory

There's no shortage of instances where theory,deduction or inference have survived being falsifiable just fine..and later been proven to be correct..but in a modern science world a half dozen 'theories of a theory'..won't get much traction outside people who want funding.

An upcoming article in Physical Review Letters says it can change all that and make string theory experimental...Their reasoning?.. They say string theory..seems to predict..the behavior of entangled quantum particles..and since that prediction can be tested in the laboratory,..they can now test string theory

predicting how entangled quantum particles behave provides the first opportunity to test string theory by experiment because quantum entanglement can be measured in the lab.(2)

There is no obvious connection..to explain why a theory that is being developed to describe the fundamental workings of our universe is useful for predicting..the behavior of entangled quantum-systems..but if it checks out,..it will be an interesting insight.

"This will not be proof that string theory..is the right..'theory of everything'..that is being sought by cosmologists..and particle physicists...However,..it will be very important to theoreticians because..it will demonstrat..whether or not string theory works,..even if its application is in an unexpected..and unrelated area of physics,"

says professor Mike Duff, lead author of the study from the Department of Theoretical Physics at Imperial College London..."If experiments prove that our predictions..about quantum entanglement are correct,this will demonstrate that string-theory..'works' to predict the behaviour of..entangled-quantum/systems.

"This may be telling us..something very deep about the world we live in,..or it may be no more than a quirky coincidence...Either way, it's useful."

continues at link

jinny/quote..<<..Only you..have the power to make life what it is.>>
no only i cvan chose to change...*'my life''..[no one else]

<<Do not question things that needs no questioning>>.
im not questioning...im explaining

<<Question the things that matters to you.>>>
thats egsactly what im trying to do
because it matters...to me*

U<<it is an illusion..>>.this is what you believe

and as posted..before..we can each chose to believe..
ANYthing we chose

you chose to learn from musitions..
i chose to learn from teachers..who been there..
done that..then wrote about it...

<<you make the world how you want to view it.>>.
yues i do make..MY..version of the world...as i chose
just as..you *chose yours

<<Thanks for trying,>>...lol
thanks..for repeatedly telling me how dumb i am

<<but you have to deal with your own demons first>>
there arnt my demons..you dont read anything i write right/

<<Do not judge,..what you do not know.>>>
cuts both-ways

<<Judge yourself.>>
i do judge...for myself
thus i wont let you judge for me

<<Do good,..and good will come to you.>>

where is this written in law?
dont you know bad things hapen to good people too?
or...does your situation..indicate something..not good?

<<It might take time,..and pain,..but it will come.>>
if it takes...pain..it isnt good

<<Because we are all spirits>>
no we are all either hunmans..or animals
CONTAINING..with*IN.us gods living spirit..that sustains us..our lives

<<This is the difference..>>
no its our sameness..one good/god sustaining allm life

<<why we are gifted with life.>>.is for god to know
and us to find-out in time..we have eternity to catch-up

<<You just haven't realized it..the way I have.>>.
and i never can..because im me
and you are you...both different...cant you see

Point taken. My turn.

1. Did I speak about suicide?

2. Did I somewhere called you dumb?

3. You are explaining how you can justify your past actions?

4. I read when it is beneficial, and it teaches me something I do not know.

5. You of all people after all your searching would relate life with the law?

6. I do not just respond to you. If I don't address you, YOU is who you want to perceive it.

I have better things to do with my time. I help those who wants to be helped. It is up to them to change, not me.

Humans, Animals, Plants, Cells, ONE CELL.. research that. You do not appreciate objects with no life, I do. They were created by us. Why is it because we are more superior we have the right to neglect and abuse? How is it you believe a spirit is not possible to be us? Prove it.

I have better things to do with my time. I help those who wants to be helped. It is up to them to change, not me.

We are ALL learning, growing and changing on our life journeys Jinny, as we assist one another; OLO is just another pitstop along the way.

For it is through experiences we do grow and change.

Thank you we are unique. I am not sure what I am doing here. Should I continue to spend time here, or should I leave. I know I do not appreciate the judging and it is disturbing me. Judgemental: take out the Judge and what do you have?

Thanks to your kind words, I will share here, coz sharing is caring :)

I like to study humans the most. I see how the posters here when they cannot get their way of finding out information the seek, they turn to desperation and start attacking others.

Words from a wise man:

- Do not pray in buildings
- Pray alone
- If you pray make sure you keep your word
- Make sure you do more charity then you ask for
- Never ask anything for yourself but ask for others
- Do NOT pollute the earth and defile the earth.

Practice that, and you won't have an issue with spirits.

A society, a culture a religion a person that will not look critically and judgementally at its beliefs and practises will not grow, change or develop into a mature, wholesome, just and good society, culture, religion or person.

Those that have are the leaders in justice, righteousness and personal development; those that fail to do so practise injustice, supression of critics and inhumane behaviour, as thay do not allow critics of their beliefs and practices to express opposition.

<<you believe a spirit..is not possible..to be us?..Prove it.>>

'in the beginning'..there was god..not me...not you...
god is cause..of me/you...we are cause of..little of our life
BUT..not most of it..you/i..dont make weather..or power..or make it rain
you/me..dont make law..nor judge it..nor ..put police onto parents..trying to be doing the right thing

<<..You do not appreciate objects...with no life,..I do.>>.they are illusery...made to control us...by fearing loosing..them...they control us

<<They were created by us.>>.us the collective...not by you nor me..individually*
nor..by*..most of those reading...OUR OPINIONS...but by slave workers..in china..etc

<<Why is it>?<..because we are more superior>>
its not we who are suppiriour..we gave up the right[standing],,when we beggged others to think for us..begged*..others to tell us..what to do..and what*..we CANNOT..

[believed the songmakers.moviemakers..capitalists/lawyers..docters/bankers..decieving us into slavery]

<<we have..the right to neglect..and abuse?>>NO..those thinking them our bettor[those thinking..*themselves..to be supirior...know they can do as the chose..because we settle for learning...from people..*who dont know better..either

<<1.Did I speak about suicide?>>
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4008&page=0

<<2.Did I somewhere called you dumb?>>by inferance..saying what*im trying to do is..

<<3...You are explaining..how you can justify..your past actions?>>
no im explaining..what may*..lie in our future

<<4.I read when it is..beneficial,..and it teaches me something..I do not know.>>
i gues that saves having to read much...how did you ever learn all of it?
when i read..i find stuff i didnt know..BEFORE..then i think about what i read

<<5.You of all people..after all your searching..would relate life with the law?}
all things have laws..gravity/electricy..life..even law has laws/rules..

<<6.I do not..just respond to you...If I don't address you,..>>[specificlly?]
YOU..is who..you want*..to perceive it.{to be]..ok great its not me

i pray..everywhere..building..my body of prayer[in or outside buildings]..as I chose

Posted by jinny, Monday, 25 October 2010 11:54:08 PM
UOG:..sorry but i just don't have the time to read everything u write.. i had a few seconds glimpse on ur links.. but they do not matter enough to me.

i have to deal with suicidal humans.. do you think i have the time?

yes you have good theories. but you are repeating yourself. We already agreed on you theories.. what else are you searching for here?

i don't want to be harsh on you..because i know you have had it tough.

Isn't it time for you to stop spending so much time on yourself and start spending time on others?

I just got stuck again for 20 mins.. becoz i talk to so many through the internet. i will try to finish up here tonight..



UOG still doesn't not understand that now we live in a good place.. there is always bad stuff going on.. but we can't change that as a being.

Rambling on and one about a problem does not fix it.

ok lets continue..the quote
this quote..reveals..the uselessness..of getting addicted to making...goods
[in the next life]
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4008#100721

and this..the insanity..that drives us

I found..a service..in full swing...The parson was preaching rather a dry sermon...He harped on two themes by/turn:

(1)That people had no business..to go to either of the other two churches,..and should_show more deference..to himself..as the representative of..the National Church;

(2)..That they should subscribe..more generously to the church..and, incidentally,*..to its vicar,..and he glossed these two themes over by platitudes..about social reform and helping..the material well-being..of their fellow-creatures,

especially those..whom he designated as/the lower classes.
Somehow this part..of his theme rang very hollow.

“I noticed the congregation..paid little heed to the sermon.

Some were whispering/scandal to their next-door neighbors,..others, mostly women,..were criticizing the clothing/of their neighbors.

Several men were talking business,..and in one corner two men were
arguing violently,..so much so that they interrupted the preacher,.who glared at them..angrily.

“I went out..and visited the other two churches,..and found a similar performance..in-each.

“We then went on..and came to the shopping*area.

Here we found a similar state of..affairs to that in the factories.
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4008#100721

People came..to buy,..but the money..they gave*..for the goods
returned to them,..while the goods returned to the shops..almost at once...{once they stopped..thinking about them]

“I asked one shopkeeper..where he got the things..he tried to sell since the factories..could not supply him.

“He:..‘Oh, they came here..with me.
They are the things which were in my shop when..I died.
Here they stick..till I’m sick and tired..of seeing them.’

“The Officer:..‘Why don’t you give up keeping a shop?’
“He:..‘What a ridiculous idea!
What on earth..should I do..without my shop?

Why,..my/whole life..has been centered in selling things..ever since I was a boy.’..He turned away in disgust,..and began to serve a lady who wanted to buy a new hat.. which returned to the*shop..a few minutes after she had taken it out.

“Then I went to the council chamber,..and found a crowd of men wrangling about..improving the town,..but after listening for a long time,..I came to the conclusion that,though they might talk for ever, nothing would*..ever be done.

“I passed out of the town..and came..

Philo your words are very much appreciated. Maybe it is up to us to know when to stop and ask directions on this journey. Perhaps I don’t need the map but to know the right questions to ask. Must be why I ask so many, I’m still looking for the right ones.

Don’t go wading through my old posts Jinny, my story is pretty simple. I foster children short term for a government department, while doing this I have seen some incredibly damaging decisions made by a money driven system that is expanding rapidly, devoid of compassion along with a refusal to make the children in it a priority.

On bad days I rage and on other days (as Anti pointed out - but I will get him back later) I whinge. OLO people rarely allow me to get away with either and they get me thinking in directions I would not come up with on my own.

God, ghosts, good, fairies, hell, karma, demons, dreamtime, angels, fate, luck, freedom, magic, heaven, purgatory, reincarnation, justice, evil, destiny, mana, saints. These things I don’t believe in although I believe they are labels individuals have for a feeling or a situation or a perception in a particular moment or even a lifetime.

I’m a bit worried I am missing something important that comes easily to others.

to..open*fields.

I use the word..to describe..the/place,..but it looked more like a piece of..waste_ground..covered with rubbish,..and entirely bare of grass.

“Here..there was a stand,..and around the field..was a dense-crowd..of people watching..what appeared to*be..a football-match;..but..though the players..seemed to try..and play,..no/goals were scored,..and nothing really happened.

[see that..thought..ensures..
that we try..to do..*works..everytime
thus..the goalie..allways*..stops the goal]

should..quote/the horse racing..quote
but..lets finish this one..first

“While I was watching.. one man/walked off..in*disgust,..and was promptly hooted by/the crowd.
“
He turned round savagely,..and,..after using..a string of words..which I will not repeat,..said;..‘What’s the use..of playing here?!

*One never*..scores a goal,..and..one..does not even
enjoy/running after the ball..as one used to do.

I’m fed up..with the whole thing.’

As he/strode away..I saw a bright-stranger..come up to him,
and..knew/that soon..another soul..would escape..from Hell.”

next-QUOTE/..We passed..the offices of..a paper..[oh*yes,..we have papers..in Hell]...just as..an edition was being sent out.

Obtaining a copy,..I found..the chief items-of*interest..were these:

“New Play...Great success/of Mr.Esmond’s work,/..'The Folly..of Virtue.’

“Police Court-News...Arrest*..of two missionaries..as spies..and disturbers of the peace.

“Local Scandal...
“Financial News...New companies.

“Racing-News.
[All the starters.]

“New Arrivals in Hell...[Full-list],..together with interviews..with prominent/visitors.

“The only item..which filled me with surprise..was the racing/news.
“‘How do you manage..for horses?’..I asked Ada.

“‘Oh,..we imagine them...
We..each think of..some famous racehorse..we knew of..on earth.
Then..we visualize it..as racing along the course..and winning.

On the day of the race..anyone*enters..any horse he likes
and..the names are announced...Then each backer*..imagines that his horse..is going to win.

The more people..there are..*backing a horse..
and..the*stronger..their wills,..the more likely it is..to win.

The worst of it..is..the judge generally..declares the horse*..he favors..has won,..even when it obviously had not...

We see all the/horses racing,..and we see..the one..that has the strongest backing..gradually pull-ahead,..but in spite of this..the judge..often declares that it has fouled*another.’

“‘I suppose that’s often true?’

“‘Oh,..it usually is...You see some/of the backers..are sure to devise..a cunning-underhand trick..in their minds..whereby they can outdistance other horses.

In short,..every horse..will*have fouled somewhere.

But..there’s always..a fearful row/after a race,..
usually culminating..in a free fight.’..

end/quote

Sorry for the diversion of topic, I can't post where I want to coz I exceeded my post there.

TPP: Sorry about yest. I do not know your story and should not have typed what I did. You are a good soul, you do good, but others complicate your life for you. It does get frustrating. All that matters is what you believe in. I am sure you are a great person that practice the right ways to your life. I am still contemplating on whether or not I should share my story. On one had I might get more advice on more information on what to do, on the other I don't want others feeling sorry for me as there are many out there that have more sad stories then I do. I'm sorry to have to tell you that you're assumptions towards me have been almost 95% wrong. Story of my life, being judge by others because i dress how i want to, i speak how i want to, and i don't bother what other people think about me. well i sorta do coz it's annoying, but not enough to make me change to fit into society.

Posted by we are unique, Saturday, 13 November 2010 12:14:18 AM

" ... Not true of a good many Australians Dream On.

There are many families who take on other families kids and relatives for short and long term periods. I assisted raising my nephew with my children for many years when he was younger .. "

No *We are Unique,* whilst I do not dispute that there are families and carers in Oz who have quite the "extended families" the quantum and the scale is altogether different.

With out going into excess details which would be to initiate a new thread, I would cite as an example to evidence this that when I look from one end of the very long street in the abode of my wife's family to the other end, the what and who of what I see are pretty much entirely comprised of the family and extended family (including very close friends) and there are lots more further out, who by walkabout, word of mouth, sms and mobile phone keep integrally involved in one anothers affairs on an ongoing and continual basis, far more so than what is "generally" practiced here.

There is of course the huge difference in population, the size and proximity/design of their dwellings, religious and cultural practice etc, etc

Posted by jinny, Sunday, 14 November 2010 12:23:17 PM

" ... "

This is of course entirely your own affair *Jinny,* so by all means you tell me to shut my mouth, f.o. (or whatever) and mind my own business

(though you may care to note that we are ALL here free to exercise "Freedom of Speech" and "Freedom of Religious expression," within the confines of the regulations of this place and relevant Australian law without risk of falling afoul of the "Executive Branch" of guvment,)

however, as a person who on a self professed basis is no longer entirely ignorant of the legal system in this country, if you indeed find yourselves in an uninvited legal situation, I offer unto you a "friendly" word of caution.

Legal action involving Immigration, Child Custody and Housing issues are all very serious and have very serious potential consequences. You may care to consider regulating your speech, manner and behavior in the interests of all members of your family unit, because

( and I do not suggest that you intend to do this)

if you carry on in a Court of Law in a manner akin to the manner in which you express yourself here, it is likely i.m.o. that the system will come down very hard on you.

In my personal experience, there are better ways to learn than in the "School of Hard Knocks."

Further, I do not say that you must offer hommage or truly like and or respect the system, BUT I do say that you may care to consider "Playing the Game."

[Deleted. Off-topic and refers to another thread. Discusses a moderation decision. Flames the moderator.]

DreamOn: when did i say that? I appreciate everyones contribution here as they all teach me a lot of lessons. I am sorry if you feel that I said that to you. I mean no disrespect. Thank you for your advice. I will be careful. btw, I have no housing issues.. just money issues. N I'm working on that as well. The police took away my phone for more then 28 days and still does not want to return it for some reason that seems ridiculous by me. Legal aid and others have advised me that they cannot do this. But they are. Why? Should I just not say anything about this? Advice...

Jinny,

In case you haven't noticed, although all of us bring our personal experiences and views to our comments, OLO is not for the most part a forum that deals strictly with personal issues and situations.

Graham shut down the thread for good reason. Showing disrespect to anyone here will not further your agenda.

piper/quote..<<..I’m a bit worried I am missing something important that comes easily to others...>>

dont sweat on it piper...as long as you hold the love
you cant go wrong..its about doing that we love
[because in the next life..there are no secrets]

and we all shall have one
[thats beyond dispute]

from what i see..many simply deney the reality
of how this life shall be...those loving good..will get more good

and those loving vile..shall get both sides of that vile

i would quote the section of the kids...in heaven
[well actualy it isnt...'in'..heaven..because heaven is a choice

thus the place where children goes is on the border..in between heaven and hell..[the first 2 levels of hell are almost like heaven]
its mostly where those who love gossip...etc..go]

or those who havnt actually done vile
yet also havnt done good

the mind rules largly..in the next life..[so if we can think it or imagine it...it can be made real...in the next life]..this is mainly because...we can make thoughts real..[being created in gods image]

but even that isnt needed..*to be known..
simply by loving others you get to heaven...

but from there..you need to pick other things you would love to do..[workaholics go largly..to hell][as they have no personal side]..[but as they love it..they wouldnt hear of us labeling it thus

[ie see the previous quote]

[Deleted for discussing a particular moderation question.]

I've just removed a couple of posts above. In case anyone is wondering why you shouldn't be able to argue about moderation decisions on the site it is because to do so means discussing the particulars of the matter that called for the moderation in the first place, which in effect means repeating the breach.

This forum is for discussing issues, not giving people advice on personal matters.

Graham

The Sleepers

“We journeyed for some time..till we came to a cave,..and here I found quite a number/of men..fast asleep...Strive as I would,..I could not wake them.

“This surprised me,..for till then..I had never seen..*anyone asleep in these realms..having no bodies,..we do not require sleep.

“I questioned my Guardian-Angel,..who now had drawn much nearer to me.

“He looked very sad as he replied:..“‘Son,
these were men..who stoutly maintained that*..after death.,.*there was no life.

They were strong-willed men who,..had they believed,..might
have done much good;..as it is they led many astray,..and since they held*..this view so*strongly..they have,..as it were,..self-hypnotized..*themselves into a state of coma,..from/which it is very hard to rouse them.

Here they lie,..age after age,..and while men
whom the-world..considered far worse than they,
and who had sunk..far lower in Hell,..have been able
to see the error of their ways..and progress,..they remain unconscious,..and cannot thus..*learn.’

“The Officer:..‘This is truly terrible;..is there no way of waking them?’

“My Guide:..‘After long ages..the spell grows weak,..then there come to them great-messengers..of light,..who,after much striving,..do succeed in breaking through..their sleep..and rousing them.’

“At length..we reached a place..of deep chasms..and beetling crags,..and after wandering/along at the base of a range of these cliffs..we came in sight of a narrow,..slippery stairway.

As we did so..suddenly a figure..came hurtling through the air..and fell to the ground in front of us...It sprang to its feet and fled away into the darkness,..and was soon lost to sight..among the crags and chasms.

“‘Who was that?’..I inquired of my guide.
“‘Some unfortunate creature..who has offended against the traditions of the sixth-division...They pride themselves..on their respectability there,..and those who offend too deeply are hurled forth..by the outraged inhabitants.

Self-righteousness is the besetting sin there.
They love to judge their neighbor..and to spread scandal.

But look,..soon you will be able to judge..for yourself what manner of men who dwell..in the sixth division of Hell.’..

...“The town..consisted for the most part..of modern-looking houses of the dreary,..respectable type..that one sees in many of the London suburbs.

Some attempt was/evidently made..
to keep the place moderately clean,..and

Graham I am honestly confused, I read back over the message I left (still sitting in word for the spell check).

And I don’t understand, we can never mention the topic of Parenting Rights again or I can’t respond to anything that was there and all subject matter it contained and I can’t really ask either because then I am discussing moderation and we aren’t allowed to?

We are not to give advice to each other anywhere or just on the subject of Parenting Rights which I am only naming to be clear not in an attempt to bring the subject back again.

Can I just publically thank George for his story and Poirot for what he said?

Your place your rules and I am all good with it but can you clarify the rules?

Pied Piper,

We sympathised with jinny ... yet we don't know the full story. No-one goes through life without experiencing a tragedy, or more.

DreamOn was absolutely correct. If jinny had tried to open herself to the fact that these people were concerned about her children - albeit mistakenly so - perhaps she could have handled it better. Sociolinguists know that there is one language for one situation and a different one for another. A doctor talks differently with his associates than he does with his children, vice versa. One's language and demeanor changes with each environment in which one is involved. A Court of Law is such an environment ... without which it would be bedlam. One can be "different" as much as one wants, but it is a common courtesy to respect others.

one under god,

You are obviously a good and devout person. However, most thoughtful people, and undoubtedly most OLO here, do try to improve their and others' lives. They do it quietly. I find your proselytizing extremely grim - even morbid. Religion is supposed to be joyful and uplifting. Didn't Jesus say something about G-d's yoke being light. Frankly, with your version of religion, I wouldn't get out of bed in the morning.

may my heart always be open to little
birds who are the secrets of living
whatever they sing is better than to know - e. e. cummings

To see the world in a grain of sand, and to see heaven in a wild flower, hold infinity in the palm of your hands, and eternity in an hour. - William Blake

Hey Danielle, shoosh we aren’t allowed to talk about it. :P

I have to say I have zero sympathy for Jinny but from all I have read (which may be more than others given I’ve been hanging about all day reading stuff that has since disappeared) I certainly don’t want to see her punished in any way or her children taken. We can hope QL has maybe a decent type of early intervention type program that they make use of.

When in Saudi Arabia I dressed very differently to how I do here… because impressions matter and my children were young when we were there. Any stray strand of my blonde hair pretty much marked me as a whore when in public so I was careful to keep it hidden. I did not look men in the eye, I find Aussie a much easier place to be in generally.

How through OLO can you help quietly? You mean like in real life not here Danielle? Language, tone, all very tricky on a forum and obviously how the reader is feeling at the time will matter a lot. I wish I had better skills as far as message delivery goes. I often read back and think I put something unintentionally in completely the wrong way with the wrong punctuation and the meaning changed dramatically.

““He looked very sad as he replied:..“‘Son,
these were men..who stoutly maintained that*..after death.,.*there was no life.”

Well that’s a worry OUG. But if they are asleep forever I guess they were right proven right? I like the whole Terry Prachett Disc world thing about how everyone goes to the afterlife they believe in. And Gods getting bigger the more people that believe in them.

This is a thread about spirits of the netherworld. Nothing to do with Jinny who pushed her agenda in here.

TPP, I'm not sure why you are confused. Of course people can discuss the issue of parental rights, but not on this thread because it isn't about that.

But a number of people on the other thread treated Jinny and each other in a way that was flaming. You don't get to argue whether you agree with me about whether it was flaming or not. Or on or off topic. Because doing either just repeats the original problem. And if there was defamation or another legal problem involved recreates the legal problem that had already been removed.

It's just a variation on the "no correspondence will be entered into" rule.

Now, if you want to talk about moderation in a general sense, start another thread. Anymore conversation about moderation on this thread will be treated as off-topic and will be removed and a penalty may be applied.

piper..further it reads..they..EVENTUALLY do get awoken
but mostly..their..WISH..is respected..i will finish..and try to find the quote

danniel..this isnt..morbid..it reveals..we ALL live again
do the things..WE CHOSE to do...that our will/id..person we were survives

this was..the first division...in which..this..had been*attempted.

“Seeing a theater,..and asking my guide..if I might enter it,..he permitted me to do so,..himself waiting outside.

As I entered..I saw one of the inhabitants of the city..and spoke to
him...He seemed slightly taken aback,..and said:..“‘We’ve not been introduced!’

“‘Oh,..damn it,..what does that matter?!’..I replied.
“‘Please*..do not swear!’..he answered.

“‘I apologized,..and then asked him..
what sort of plays were shown..in this*city.’

“‘All sorts,..so long as they are not improper.

We will not permit any suggestion of/impropriety..here.
Nothing vulgar..or immoral..is permitted.

All our plays..and music-halls..are conducted..on the best-principles.’

“I...‘That’s the first time..since I’ve been..in Hell..
that I’ve heard people object to..impropriety.’

“He looked pained.
“‘I wish you would not use that word.

There is..no such place..as Hell,..
and..certainly we..*are not..in it.’

“‘Oh,..Don’t talk nonsense..,’..I began..‘All this realm..*is Hell,..so what’s the use of..pretending it isn’t...I’ve been long enough..in Hell..to know*..that.’

“‘Stranger,’..he replied,..‘who are you,..and from where do you come?’

“So I told him briefly my history...As I went on..he slowly drew away from me,
and at length broke in with..‘That’s enough,..thank you...Either you are a liar..or a villain...I know*perfectly well..I’m not in Hell.

I suppose..I’m still on earth,..but anyway..I never have..associated with scoundrels,..and I am not going to begin now...Good-day,..and let me give you..a piece of advice,..which I do out of the kindness of my heart..[I always was a kindhearted-man]..Don’t tell that story to anyone else here,..or they will have you thrown/over the battlements,’..and he made off.

“I went into the theater...A musical comedy was being performed...A poorer show I’ve
hardly ever seen...The music was not*absolutely discordant,..as it is in the other divisions..of Hell,..but it was feeble stuff...The very worst kind of so-called popular music.

Plot..?..there was none,
and the whole show..was so banal..and trashy,
that I cleared out..at the end of the first scene.

I noticed that the audience..seemed as bored as I was,..but nevertheless..they stayed on.

“Next I tried...

a music-hall..which advertised outside..that its show was..‘A most Refined/entertainment...Funny*..without being Vulgar.’..It certainly wasn’t funny,..and it certainly was,..to my thinking,..intensely vulgar..not indecent,..but just vulgar.

Low comedians..of the worst type,..vapid songs,..silly aimless tricks
in short,..absolute trash...“

On coming out,..which I did very quickly,..I came to a concert-hall

Here at least,..I thought,..I may see something worth seeing,..or at any rate hear it.

But no;..of all the banal-twaddle..I think that concert was the worst.

“I left as quickly as I could,..and seeing a picture-gallery,..entered it..*without expecting/much satisfaction,..and was not disappointed...All the rubbishy pictures in the world..seemed to have been gathered together..and hung on the walls..of this ugly,..pretentious-building.

“I then returned to my guide,..who had,..as it were,..concealed his natural-brightness,and,..led by him,..made my way through mean streets..towards the center of the town.

Here..I entered a very ugly..brick church..built in the pseudo-Gothic style...

but that bit..is over here
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4008&page=0
or here
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11183&page=0

anyhow i go..to search the sleeper
that was awoken..quote...

see that we have freewill
that if you cHOSE..to sleep
or pretend..your dead..this is YOUR RIGHT

if i awake you..then im responsable...can even get sent to hell..for doing it..maliciously...we MUST each retain our freewill...its a law

vodaphne has taken-over..my internets_server..[intermitant service only]...getting difficult..to access web

thus read pages 17..27..for more..re-sleepers
http://new-birth.net/booklet/Wanderer_a4.pdf

The limitations..to a man's own indulgence..and the extent..to which he can infringe/upon the rights of others,..are regulated by the amount..of law..and order..existing in the sphere..to which he belongs.

For example,..in the lowest sphere of all,..where no law prevails but the law of the strongest oppressor,..you may do what you please;..you may injure..or oppress another..to the very last limits of his endurance,..and those who are stronger than you..will do the same to you.

The most oppressed slaves..on earth are less/unhappy than those whom I have seen..in the lowest sphere of all,..where no law prevails and where only/those spirits..are to be found who have defied all laws of God..or man

and have-been..a law to themselves..exercising the most boundless oppression..and wrong..towards their neighbors.

In those spheres which I shall shortly describe,..it seems that strong,..cruel and oppressive..as a spirit may*be,..there is always found..someone still stronger..to oppress..*him,

some one..still-more..crueler,..more-still wickeder.. still more oppressive,..till at last..you arrive at those..who may truly be said to reign in hell—[Kings..and Emperors of Evil!]

And it goes on..till-at last..the very excess..of evil will work its own cure.

The worst..and most tyrannical..will*..long*for..some other state of things,..some laws/to restrain,..*some power to control;

*and that feeling*..will be the first step,
the first desire..for a better*life,

which will give the Brothers of Hope..sent to work in those dark spheres,..the little loophole..through which to give the idea of
improvement,..and the hope*..that it is*still..possible for them.

As the spirit..progresses upwards..there will be found..in each circle/sphere/realm/..on each step..of the ladder of progress..an increased*degree of law..and order prevailing,

to which he*will..be ready to conform himself,
as he expects..others to conform..where the laws affect him.

The perfect_observance..of the highest moral-laws..is found only in the highest spheres,..but there are many degrees of observance,..and he who respects..the rights of others..*will find his rights respected,

while..he who tramples/upon his neighbor
will in turn be trampled upon..by the stronger ones.

In all respects..man in the spirit world..is free to work..or to be idle,..to do good..or to do evil,..to win..a blessing..{or a curse.}

Such as he is,..such will*be..his surroundings,..

and the sphere..for which he is fitted..must*..ever be the highest..to which he can attain..*till his own*efforts..fit him to become..a dweller in one..higher.

Thus the good..need no protection/against the evil..in the spirit world...Their own different_states..place an*insurmountable_barrier between them.

Those above..can always descend..at*will..to visit..or help those below/them,..but between them..and the lower-spirits..there is a great gulf..that the lower ones..*cannot pass.

Only/upon your earth..and on other material-planets..where material life exists,..can there be the mixture of..good and evil..*in-fluences..with almost*..equal power.

I say almost equal,..since even on earth..the good have the greater
power,..unless man shuts himself/out..*from*..their aid..by the indulgence of..*his lower passions.

In days of old..when men's hearts were simple/as little children's, the spirit world..lay close*at..their doors..and they knew it not, but now..men have drifted far from it.. and are like mariners upon a raft,..who are..*seeking now..again through fog..and mist to find it.

Kind pilots..of the spirit world..are striving to..guide..and
help them..to reach that..*radiant-land..that they may bring back..a bright store of hope*..and light..for the weary-strugglers..upon earth

jinny/quote..<<Legal aid..have advised me..that they cannot do this...But they are...Why?..Should I just-not..say anything about this?..Advice>>

its no use...complaining..its time for doing
time to get together referances..[in writing..by people that
know you..and the kids]..that decalre..'legaly'..that your a
good-person..good/parent...etc]

these items...must*be submitted..to the court...[origonals]
and..copies sent to the prostitutor...etc

clearly court..has made*..an order...till that order is met..you
effectivly have no rights...but its..{the scam}..is more
clever..than this...see this all is based on a fiction

we created this fiction...whenever*..we put our...'mark*'...on
any*..paper
[its really the mark/of the beast*]...ie

it takes a living-being...and makes them...an id..[the id you yourself created..in responding..or initiating...govt interaction]

for most of us this is done...at birth..[our parents..filled
in a form...declaring under oath...you need to be
registerd...[cleve4r aint it..how we need to
regester...cars..pets...kids..etc

anyhow..BECAUSE..you [or your parents...regesterd..you]..you
fall under a govt act...[which one depends on just egsactly
what you applied..[apply means beg]...according to
which..item*..[chattle*]..you begged*..to regester]

see regestering a thing..means it belongs to govt
thus you regester*..your marrage..your*.."a chattle"..under the
marrage-act

regester your kids..their under the birth_act
regester your car...[cars aint vehicles]...only vehicles[doing
business need regestering...but if you do...thats under the
transport_act

even say people come here...they NEED to sign..their mark..on
some form..or other...[say the customs-'act'..or the
imagration-'act'...or the voters-'act'...etc etc]

anyhow thats why..they can do what they do
YOU had*..to have *signed..your*mark..[of the beast]

in doing so..you created a fiction..and a lie..!

[the law presumes:..you wont deliberatly...lie..about being
UNDER..an act..[which is something only govt
workers/polititions/docters/business..and others

*seeking..'ADVANTAGE*/powers*/authority*'..under the act

anyhow..you created...*a legal...'person*'...
that you think is you..*but its only a legal entity..
it*..dosnt have*life..in/of..it-self

it is..infact..a coorperation..[corperations..have their
corp/name..in *capital-letters...
[living people only capitalise their first letter]

anyhow

thats some of the reason...how

you replied to the capital...LETTER_NAME...
as if..*dead-entity..[*corperation]

acting as its agent...
then failed to declare..you*are acting..*as agent

anyhow its a bit more complicated..but there you go
thats how*..govt gets the power..we signed it away

now let the really smart people explain...
what to do..about it all

OUG You are not discussing the topic and are discussing jinny's position. That diversion is finished.

philo i am replying a question re life/death
we cannot fully grasp death/..
without discussing the events of life

im not the one raising the question

only giving reply...[a reply
others saw the means of removing..by poluting the..'other'..topic]

never the less the comment...
relates to this topic...because it replies a question
that arose*..from this discussion...let it go...

let the comment be judged in its own place..here...[it seems to have run its course..at any rate...[i wont say it was destracted...but its all relivant]..life in spirit..reflects life hereafter

its getting dificult to post
due to internet..'sir_vice-provider'...lol.. slowing down my service

i made a comment...
you formed an opinion

its you that created..the joinder
not me..

This is the spirit, see the changes, the positive spirit. The spirits that led me here to listen to the other spirit whisper their secrets to me unknowingly, to teach me what I did not know. The spirits that makes it posible to give me the energy to do what I have to do. You put a smile on my face. They are all arounf you, I know, because I believe.

There is no heaven and hell. If you believe there is evil, then there will be evil. If you believe in god, there will be god. Our paths were already set out from the day life was given to us. However you try to fight this, u will not win.

Love conquers all, if there is no love, there is no hope. I have seen how many care, I know how many are making a difference. Dang! If I write anymore here, what am I going to be left with when I start working on my books? Forgive the ones that have caused you wrong, as they have their own reasons for making those choices.

This is my view. I respect ur views. Cheers and stay positive :)

jinny has given me feedback..in real-time
[this real-time..is the link between god...and our living spirit's]

while we disagree...in many aspects...
its a marrage of oppisites..that gives good-fruit
illistrates..the sustaining nature of oppisites
the opposing basis..of heaven/hell

even just in the names..we use...jinny..being the one..and i the other...and even when we get it totally wrong..we yet circulate the life_energy..into a good*use...serving both our needs..and yours.

to quote...jinny..<<..The spirits..>>.[i would have wrote spirit}..<<that makes it posible..to give me the energ..to do what I have to do.>>.as this feeds my energy too..i will continue

<<You put a smile..on my face.>>.ok im seeing a smug/smirk..but lets continue

<<They>>..i would have wrote,..'he'..<<are all around you>>
i would add..he is..but then agree.<<,I know,..because I believe.>>

to which i say...our belief is sacred
regardless of where we differ...
it is in our..*simularity..god..[spirit]..is revealed

<<There is..no heaven..and hell.>>
mine..says...except..that we*create...in our life-experiences
[energy..cannot be created..NOR destroyed...

[thus living spirits..MUST continue..their spirit-energy...'being'
some*where...
[for want of..a better word..i chose to call these..opposites..heaven/hell]

<<..If you believe*..there is*evil,..then there..*will be evil>>
i say regardless if we believe....or not..things can be called..[believed]..to be..good..or bad....

[this enlarges..into the good...seeking out the good..{in spirit}..and the bad..seeking out ways/means..to realise their love of..their vile..

<<If you*believe..in god,..there will be god.>>
and if you hope there isnt..you will..in time form a new OPINION.

time makes changes..but the only..thing that dosnt change..is good[god]..the cause..underlying our spirit-being..[no god..no spirit..no life]

<<Our paths..were already set out
from the day..life was given to us>>.
i will agree...in a generalised manner...but the specifics..they are up to us...[BUT lets take your statement..FURTHER...jinny.

WHO?..WHAT?..set this path...out?
one spirit...many spirits...

continued..

*ONE..or many?

..or all spirits..acting of one mind?
atonement..[at-one-meant]

<<However you try..to fight this,..u will not win.>>
im a lover...your the..fighter
and never the twain shall meet..i dont..*need to win
i just love playing the game..

<<Love conquers all,>>...love that con-queers..isnt love

if we love conquering..then we love the*win...
[to win..others must loose]..

love MUST not have a winner..[whiner]..nor looser

we agree<<..if there is no love,..there is no hope.>>
where love is..nothing*ELSE..can*..come-in
where there is hope..{for love}..there is hope for something better

<<I have seen..how many care,>>
but also..i have seen..how many..couldnt care...less*
i dont focus..on their negativity...but must realise we are all different...because..this is my life-path..as theirs is theirs

<<I know..how many..are making a difference.>>
AND ALSO..THE MANY..WHO DONT..[darn cap-loc]..<Dang!>

<<Forgive..the ones..that have caused you wrong,>>
turn..the other cheek...who judges..right..or wrong..do they judge rightly..or wrongly..just thinking the question gets your theory wrong

<<they have their own reasons..for making those*choices.>.
have their..*own..reasonings...fears..
learnings/earnings..[life-path]

<<I respect ur views.>>
and i love your fearlesness
no more i love your strength

no...[must focus..on the words]
yes..{got-it]..i RESPECT..your vieuw..TOO

<<Cheers..and stay positive..:)>..
dont change jinny*
couldnt if we tried

change the need to change..[for a real change]..
and thus..*be the change.,.you need others to*be

DESCRIBES THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
THE SPIRIT AND THE ASTRAL PLANES

Nov.12th,1917
shall we start the survey of the astral plane

let me give an introduction.

;The first point you must realize is the great difference between astral..and the spirit planes.

;Let us consider the spirit plane first.

These differences strike the investigator at once:
;1...Matter has vanished entirely.
2...Space is non-existent.
3...Time..is nearly..non-existent..although there is something akin to chronological-order.

To make my meaning plain,..consider Hell.
Hell..is not a place...It is a condition.

The evil spirit..quits the astral plane-
that is to say,..he leaves astral body and ceases to be
visible..to the denizens of the astral.

It is quite possible..that he is still on the same spot as he
was at time before,..if you can so use the word,..just as a dead-man may haunt the earth,invisible to most.

Ill prove this statement of mine.
He ceased and suddenly..his form grew wan,became thin like paper,..tore in shreds,..and vanished.

Mother shrieked,and R.L.W sat Spell-bound and horror-struck.

Good heavens!..he ejaculated,I hope he has not left us..for good.

J.W...I have never seen him do that before;but I know I can find him if I return to earth,..leave my astral form here, and go out to the spirit plane...

We were still debating what we should do,..when I perceived a mist near/where..he had sat...It grew thicker and denser.. By degrees it became almost a solid mound.

Then the mound moved,..and began to pulsate...Slowly it changed into the form of a man,..and there once more was H.J.L..back amongst us.

He was standing a few yards away from the chair upon which
he had been seated...That was the only difference.

Mother:..I wish you would not play these tricks,.they are so startling...You gave me a fearful-shock.

H.J.L...smiled,and said,..I did it..to bring home my point.
So far as I am aware,..I never/moved away from this point,..yet I vanished,..as you saw,..and my astral body disintegrated.

Of course,..I am not a real denizen..of this plane,
so it's the easier.;
J.W.;..What landscape did you see?
H.J.L...I found myself..seated..in my study..in the Twilight-Land.

;Well,..to continue...This..*evil-spirit..immediately drifts into the company..of..other evil-spirits..of an simular/equally evil-nature

Their dominant sin..grips them..as in..a vice,and their chief thoughts..run on the lines..it has marked out...in its previous material life...

Take the Officer, whose dominant vices were hate and ruthlessness...He thought hate,..*that produced an atmosphere of cruelty..and hate,..and his
companions were likewise thinking the same ideas.

The sum total of their united ideas
formed that division of Hell.

Those who were weaker in character,..or even in cruelty, had to
accept the ideas thrown off by the stronger,and, therefore,..the Officer was able to inflict pain and wounds on those whom he crushed

J.W...It has been suggested that the Officer's..account of Hell is an account of a nightmare
dreamed by his sleeping spirit.;

H.J.L...;That is not a correct summary of the position.
Earth folk find it very hard to realize that even on earth the..;idea..&#..is everything.

They are so used to seeing ideas clothed in matter,
that they regard ideas not so clothed as much less important.

Now this is incorrect. Let us consider, say,..the winged figure of Victory...The idea existed in the mind of its creator before
he carved it in marble.

The idea would still have existed if he had never carved it.

Moreover,..he might have made a model of it,
and then had a bronze cast therefrom by someone else.
But if he had,..the idea would have been his,..not the caster's.

Mind,..I think he is the better/artist,.and probably the statue is a better statue,..if he does all the work himself,..but that does
not alter my argument.

Well,..though on earth ideas,..to become visible must,as a rule,..be
clothed in matter..* on the spirit/plane..the idea itself is perceived by us..and takes the form in which we have conceived it.

You,..Jack,..will understand this easily,..as you have seen the
statues in the·galleries on the spirit-plane,..which is explained..in the work we have recently given to the public...(Gone West,]

Now,..add to that fact..the further one/that united belief in an abstract idea creates it,..as seen in the..;Forms of the Gods;..which are worshipped..in the second division..of the spirit-plane,..and you have all the material..for Hell as...described..

UOG: when are you going to stop believing what others tell you? honestly? HELL? SUICIDE? come one.. wake up.. i mean some posters thinks i am not here? They're elsewhere stuck in their disruptive minds.

You like to analyze so much, come up with your proof of hell, how about posting some picture of it as well. Not made up ones.. REAL ONES

"Matter has vanished entirely" really? what matter? all the physical objects around you?

"Space is non-existent" what planet do you live in? even when you use the space bar on your keyboard there is a space.

"Time..is nearly..non-existent..although there is something akin to chronological-order." just because you can't deal with reality? of course time exist.

Why is there day and night, why is there time, why are there predictions, why have some of these predictions true. When did the word 'time' get created? now we view that word differently from before, because we know better.

described by the Officer.

So,..too,..you have the/explanation..of how the rest houses are set up in Hell..by bands of good spirits.

These phenomena are as objective to us..as material phenomena are to earth folk,..
and more so..for we feel them..with our whole being..instead of merely..*perceiving them..by means of one of our senses,..as,for example,..by means of sight...

Now I object to the dreaming them..for this reason.
In mortal life the dreamer is a passive-witness..of the scenes which pass through his mind...I do not mean that he does not sometimes appear to play a part in them;..of course he does.

But there comes a time when..he wakes and knows..they were a dream.
No such thing occurred with the Officer.
He did not*wake from the nightmare.

Rather,..his nightmare,..by degrees,..changed into a pleasanter condition...not a dream,..and he and I..and if all we see..are dreams but if so whose dreams?

Not the Officer's!

No,..the way in which a dream..could explain the phenomena is not that Hell/was a dream of the Officer's, but..that he and I,and R.L.W. and your mothe.. are all dreams..&#151;..and you are the dreamer.

Well,..you know that this is absurd,
though the outside world may,..or may not,think so,
but as I am speaking..for your satisfaction mostly,..I tell you to put that idea away.

It won't enable you to explain the subject.
Grasp fully the import of the law..that the form and the idea..take the place of the physical..and the astral body,..and much that is difficult to understand..becomes plain.

For this law governs the spirit plane..whether in Hell or in the
highest division.

"Therefore,..it is true to say that Hell..is a condition..and not a place.

But this statement is not true of the astral plane.
1.The astral plane is semi-material.
2...It has something..*akin to space..and even position
"3.Time does*..exist,..though..in a more fluidic-form..than on earth.

"Now,..before enlarging..on these points,..I want to..

want to draw your attention to these characteristics
of the astral plane which differentiate it in a marked way from the spirit plane.

"The whole astral plane and its inhabitants are much less fixed than either the earth or the
spirit plane.

It is a half-way house between the two, and partakes of the nature of both, often
with incongruous results.
"Its inhabitants are much less graded and sorted out than those in the spirit plane.

You can
meet quite evil persons on the sixth division of the astral plane, and quite good ones on the
earth plane.

"Again, you find in certain parts of the astral plane life approximating closely to life of the
earth, and yet you will find men of several nationalities discussing abstruse problems by
means of telepathy, nearly as completely as we do in the spirit plane.

"Let us take point 1.
’’The astral plane may be regarded as the astral body of the earth itself, and just as the astral
body spreads its aura or outer fringe beyond our earth body to a distance of a few inches, so
does the world.

"But just as the astral body of a man is within as well as without his physical body, so the
astral plane interpenetrates the earth.
"The further one gets from the earth, the finer becomes the matter which still exists, until at
length it ceases.

Therefore, gross astral beings cannot reach the higher divisions of the astral
plane.
"Now, I am trying to keep this as clear as I can so if you can’t follow me say so at once and
remember that what may seem clear to you may not seem clear to others who have not had
your experience.

J.W. "I follow you quite well."
H.J.L. "Yes. With regard to the second point. You will now understand that in a certain sense
&#150;
you must not be too literal, of course &#150; but in a certain sense there is space, place, and
position. In a moment, when I’ve finished, R.L.W. will show you a diagram of the astral plane.

"The two lowest divisions may be considered as within the earth’s crust...Of course,..I don’t mean that if you dig a big hole..you will ever be able to see*them..with mortal eyes,..but yet..in a sense that is their position.

"The third division,..our earth-plane is really..the outer crust of the physical earth,..as seen by*..an astral being. Those last few words convey a great deal..as Rex will explain later.

"The fourth division..or the land of the dreamers..is a curious band of country linking up the/earth-plane..and the higher division of the astral-plane.

Here time*..begins to play..a curious part..for here*..come the astral-elements..which are being thrown off..*by all things physical whether..’animate’..or what you are pleased to call..’inanimate.’

Here come the dreamers,..and here*also..come many astrals who descend from the higher division..to meet those who come seeking them,..and at times they stay..and talk as your mother did to B.,..and sometimes they lead..the dreamers into the fifth..or sixth division of the astral plane..as I did..when I met C.W.(see Gone West).

"This division..*corresponds largely..with the lower atmosphere,..and the very finest particles of dust..which are made visible to mortals when the sun illuminates them..are the grossest form/of matter..which we can see..on that plane.

"Of course,.when we are on the earth-plan.. we are brought within the influence of earth/conditions,..and can see real material objects,..but they look different..to us from what they do
to you.

"The next two divisions are further out in space,..i.e. further from the earth,..and also..the effect of time begins to appear.

"The fifth..and sixth-divisions..mingle*..in a way which is very difficult to describe..which brings home{to us}..more than anything else..the curious blend..of physical.and spiritual,..so characteristic..of the astral-plane.

"In the fifth division..the denizens think-they need..food and sleep, and so they have astral-food,..and actually appear*to sleep.

"In the sixth division,..where we are,..all four of us,..the denizens know..that neither food nor sleep..is necessary..and therefore do not have them.

"Now,..you will perceive at once that this is the law of spiritual condition...It marks one of the earliest stages..of the cleansing of the spirit from earth influence.

"But the effect of time is peculiar also,..for these two divisions which in outward appearances*..resemble each other very closely,..show all the various stages*..through which the world has
passed.

Thus the world which is perishing today..under the guns in Italy is speeding over to..the fifth and sixth divisions.

"Here also you will find..the astral-form of the Ice Age..or of the coal measures.

"Now,..whereas..*on the physical-world..the most recent one is beneath your feet,..and the..Archæn rocks..are buried deep down in the bowels of the earth,..here you..*seem to see..these ages reflected..as-like in a mirror,..and so the age..of today..is in order of space..nearest to the earth..and each earlier age..is further..*out..in the ether.

"To take a homely simile,..if the earth were..*the heart of a bulb..the outer-layer_husk..would be the Archæn rocks,..and the intervening layers..would represent the coal-measures,..the Ice Age,
the present age,..and so forth,..of the astral plane.

"But though this..is a simple and effective simile,
it is not,*..unfortunately,..a completely correct one.

"The position..is complicated by the fact..that these..’strata’
here have..each two sections...one for those who need food,..and one for those who don’t.

If I were to merge them..into one division,..and simply say that those..who needed food..formed little communities..together..while
those who did not likewise lived apart...It should give you a very fair idea..of the truth,..

But yet..I should not be absolutely correct ..
"The highest division lies away/beyond..the sixth division
but by the time the astral being..reaches that division,
his astral body is growing weak.

He is losing his grip on locality..and coming more..*under the influence*of condition.

Most astrals..hardly see it,..because their astral_body wilts away and..their spirit soars..onwards..into the spirit-plane.

"Before leaving the subject of*..place,..I should add
that there is a strong tendency..for the layers..which represent say,..London in the past..to correspond*,,roughly with
London..of the present...as..on the earth.

"Let us now..briefly consider..the question of..*time.

We have a very fair chronological-order..which
in our cases,..I mean R.L.W...and myself,..is aided by the recurrence of..your weekly visits.

At the same time,..as we have no physical sun..we have no simple timegauge..as earth folk have."

J.W.started,..and said..."But if you have no sun.
what is the light..I see?"

H.J.L."The astral_sun..which does not follow..*exactly the same hours as..the physical sun, and..the more material the division..into which it has to penetrate,..the less..true-light..is received.

Thus..there is no light..in the two lowest divisions which are,..as it were,..*within the earth.

Even..the third division,..which is,..*remember
the earth..as seen by the astral_being,..is comparatively dark.

Dreamland..is inclined to..a soft twilight,..though some parts,..{those nearest to the fifth-division,}..are fairly bright.

"When we reach..the fifth..and sixth divisions..we find
an abundance of light,..and so too..in the..highest-division.

When the astral being..passes out of..his astral body
into the spirit plane,..he no longer*perceives astral sunlight.

You know..the cause of light there;..and how those who have failed
to develop their spiritual_nature..*are unable to enter the brighter divisions.

"But to continue about time.

It is far more fluidic..than it is on earth..in one sense,..yet in
another sense..one sometimes is inclined to think..that it has stood still..in certain parts of the astral_plane.

Thus one enters the Ice Age area one finds men and animals which must have..entered it thousands of years ago..still behaving just as they did at the time of that longforgotten epoch.

"These are examples of its curious stability.
But I fancy it’s caused by the old law of..’Condition;

The savages have created an Ice Age atmosphere,..as it were.
Then,..again,we have no set seasons...You realized that when we visited that splendid garden.

Again,..our feelings cause some periods of earth time..to drag*..for a great while.

R.L.W...here broke in,.."Yes,..the time that passed..between my death and..your first visit..*seemed enormous &#151;..almost as long as your first visit until now."

I..(J.W.)..nodded sympathetically.
H.J.L...continued..."Now,..I don’t suppose..I have..covered all the ground...I ought have..in this..introduction.. but I have given enough..to enable a start..to be made.

Further points..*can be...elucidated..as we go on."
http://www.ghostcircle.com/ebooks/JSM_Ward%20-%20A_Subaltern_In_Spirit_Lands.pdf