The Forum > General Discussion > Dead, Dying, or even desirable?
Dead, Dying, or even desirable?
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Posted by Maximillion, Tuesday, 9 June 2009 4:22:18 PM
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Maxi
I agree that courtesy oils the wheels of society. However, it was not manners that feminists were objecting to it was being treated as incompetent that started the confusion. Anecdote: I was in my teens wandering through a large department store at Christmas time, heading for an exit door, I noticed a immaculately dressed elderly gentleman loaded with parcels, he noticed me at the same time and hastened to reach the door in order to open it for me. Being young, fit and not weighed down with parcels, I reach the door first and with a slight bow held it open for him, as I said. "Courtesy works both ways, have a merry Christmas." He paused, then thanked me. The only time I would like to have a door held open for me is when I clearly need help, like I'm heavily pregnant or loaded up with shopping. I don't want someone tripping over themselves to open a door just because I'm a woman. That was the point that feminists were, and still are, trying to make. As for holding doors open, if I reach a door first I will often hold it open for whoever is behind me whether they are male, female or martian. Instead, courtesy seems to have gone the way of the dinosaurs, but unlike those dead animals, courtesy can be brought back. It shouldn't matter what sex you are, just be excellent to each other. Its not difficult and it makes everyone feel good. Posted by Fractelle, Tuesday, 9 June 2009 5:14:42 PM
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Manners have been neglected for a quite a while. It is easy to slip into the "good old days" mindset here but I think there is great merit in treating people with manners.
What happened to manners? For manners to mean something we need to take more care with our children but most of all we need to lead by example. Some parents are largely MIA when it comes to child raising and are often too tired to make an effort once home. The media certainly shows a bunch of precocious disrespectful kids on US TV shows and while we might not want a return to 'Leave it to Beaver' some balance would be desirable. Posted by pelican, Tuesday, 9 June 2009 6:58:57 PM
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Dear Max,
Fractelle has summed it up beautifully. My parents instilled in me : "Always be a Lady, no matter where you are, For as a Lady you will achieve much and travel far!" And, you're right, it may somehow appear rather 'quaint,' by today's standards. Yet, I'm still firmly of the belief - that what is important is the content of our children's hearts and minds, or what is often described as character. When we say, "It's what's inside that counts," we speak a simple but profound truth. Respect, loyalty, a sense of fair play, decency, and good manners, may sound like modest ambitions, but in today's culture they're not as easy to achieve as we might think. I'm grateful that I've managed to surround my children with a sturdy sensibility, a world view, and one that was different from the 'Me' mentality of modern culture. I'm extremely proud of the adults, my two boys have become. The "door ceremony,' in which men open doors for women - is interesting. As feminists point out, just as interesting as 'why,' men open doors for women is the question - 'which,' doors they open for women: is it the symbolic doors that lead to positions of power, wealth, and influence? Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 9 June 2009 7:19:08 PM
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Thankfully my wife still likes to be treated as a lady. She is happy to have a door open as many times as I am willing to open it. I like to go to a shop and feel like I am not an inconvenience to shopkeeper or sales person. Unfortunately many sales people have no idea these days. I go back to shops where I experience a few basic manners.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 9 June 2009 7:37:23 PM
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Good Evening Max,
I hope this finds you well. Etiquette and manners are important and still used, as far as I know. Little kids are taught to say please and thank you, not to talk when grown ups are talking in my house unless their hair happens to be on fire. Children are also specifically taught to be polite and use manners with each other. My husband still opens my car door for me and all females whether they want him to or not. I help him carry in the shopping, if he’s lucky. Kind Regards, Julie (is it manners to have alias’s?) Posted by Jewely, Tuesday, 9 June 2009 8:27:37 PM
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Manners.
I can be pretty rude and insulting sometimes but hopefully people can see it in the spirit of the debate as a strident defense of my beliefs and not as personal or the way I am in general. I think most people are generally polite it is just the few that are badly brought up and dont care as well as the occasional lapses im sure we are all guilty of. In this modern world we are all subject to stresses and situations we dont want and sometimes this inevitably spills over and affects the way we treat others. Once again I blame the atomisation of society and the selfishness promoted by capitalism for the pressures we all feel that can sometimes lead to less than courteous behavior. Can we really be critical of the surly teenager who cant find a decent job when they dont say please or thankyou or worse. Or the harried and harassed checkout operator or waitstaff who cant bother to even be sincere when they serve you with their "have a nice day". Do you really expect the taxi driver or truckie to follow rules of etiquette after a day fighting traffic on todays roads? What about the examples set by our so called leaders. Parliament is a complete zoo most days. Shock jocks are hardly beacons of civility now are they but they are oh so influential and respected. Even the media with all its rules and regulation is filled with rude, obnoxious characters who regularly stoop to the lowest levels of bad taste and behavior. Sports stars. LOL Musicians. HA Even the godbotherers are complete assholes on a regular basis. Pell, every evangalist hatemongering preacher, the Israelis, muslims, they all hate and defame each other (and worse) on a constant basis. People who are happy and content and have time and freedom are courteous, kind and civil. People who are overworked, unhappy, discontent, and powerless will not put any effort into manners and polite behavior and I dont blame them one bit. Posted by mikk, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 1:55:43 AM
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Ahhh Mikk, but that is precisely my point.
Manners and courtesy are no longer taught, not in school, and rarely at home, beyond please and thankyou. The essence of this style of behaviour is that we do it NO MATTER WHAT! It's a cop-out to put the blame on the pressures of modern life, there are still many cultures that seem to have them, only in "The West" have they been abandoned. It would appear to be a side-effect of the concentration of the focus on the sacred "ME". Posted by Maximillion, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 7:51:37 AM
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I was also brought up to "do the right thing by women", Max, which included such niceties as opening doors, holding a lady's chair, standing when a lady entered the room, not swearing in front of women, etc. the intent was to demonstrate respect for women, certainly not to denigrate as Fractelle and foxy seem to think it does. The semiotics were clear and uncomplicated and only the most twisted logic could make anything else out of it.
My experience as an adult is that women rarely acknowledge such courtesies and even exhibit annoyance at them sometimes, so for a time I deliberately did the "wrong" thing, just to see what response I would get. For example, if there was a woman approaching the door at the same time as me, I'd wait for her to open it (and believe me, I always had to wait) and walk through ahead of her. If I was the one to get there first, instead of holding it I'd walk through and let it go, forcing her to catch it. I never saw a single woman fail to make some sign of annoyance at my behaviour, mostly subconsciously I suspect. I suspect that much of the irritation that some of the women here feel at my posts is the fact that I'm not operating according to those unconsciously-assimilated "rules" of courtesy they expect from men. Despite their protestations of egalitarianism, they still really axpect men to treat them "nicely", even when their gender is of no relevance, such as here on an anonymous forum. Must be biologically determined... Posted by Antiseptic, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 8:03:08 AM
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Interesting topic, Maximillion. A couple of weeks back I remarked in another thread about the decline of civility in our society, and I think that notions like courtesy and manners are the mundane manifestations of it. Like you, I am often complimented by others about my children's behaviour, since they have been taught by me and their mother to display consideration and courtesy to others as a matter of course.
However, I think that the issue of who opens doors is a trivialisation of the general decline in interpersonal behaviour - indeed, my kids do as I do on that score: whoever gets there first opens it for others. I hold doors open for men as well as women if I happen to get there first. In my business, customers who are rude to me or my staff don't get served. People who are rude on the phone are hung up on. Since the next similar business is 20 km away, it's amazing how civil our younger customers have become, although it always astounds me to strike people who apparently are completely unfamiliar with expressions such as 'please' and 'thank you'. I think that one of the most obvious examples of the decline in overall civility in our society is people's behaviour on the roads. Who had ever heard of 'road rage' until about a decade ago? 25 years ago I was a cab driver while studying in Sydney, but on the basis of recent visits to that urban nightmare there is no way that I'd want to either deal with the general public or even drive there. Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 8:31:14 AM
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Max,
You are right of course and there are many examples of bad manners, some I notice are the young walking abreast and not moving aside for others, The young being waited on at gatherings and not helping to pass around refreshments and getting service out of turn in shops. It is simple courtasy that makes our society. I think the cause is a more casual way of life and parents not teaching the kids to respect others. Children made to address adults properly and not by first name, unless invited to do so. Being on time for meals and sitting at the table shows respect for mum, who prepared the meal. A small compliment also helps. Many kids are not taught how to use cultery or even how to hold a pen properly. We all have noticed this and the question is do we accept it and if not what can be done. Setting a good example at home would be a start and politicians could improve their game. Media set poor examples by the way they conduct interviews and rudely intrude. Saying please and thank you should be automatic. Posted by Banjo, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 10:10:49 AM
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Okay I got a bit lost (yeah I bet you're all surprised).
Are we talking manners or are we talking rules in society like everyone stops when the light is red? Society wroks mostly based on an understanding of how things happen, cues in shops etc? Manners are the thanking someone for something or stopping to help someone who has dropped their shopping in the street? Showing curtesy? Do ethics come in to this? Someone leaves their wallet on a seat, do you tell them out of manners or because it is the "right" thing to do and is that under the heading of manners? Posted by Jewely, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 10:23:42 AM
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Yep, manners are on the wain. Finding myself in a queue at the Post office not long ago, and standing by the door, I opened it for several people exiting and found that the only people who thanked me were the elderly.
Posted by snake, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 10:30:59 AM
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Dear Antiseptic,
It's nice to hear that you open doors for women, and believe in the 'niceties,' of 'good manners.' However, as we all know - anyone can be superficially taugh 'correct,' behaviour. However, that doesn't necessarily make them a 'Lady,' or a 'Gentleman.' That requires a certain 'instinct,' with which one has to be born - of knowing what the 'right,' thing to do really is - in any given situation. It's a rare quality - that not many possess. It's what the Germans refer to as 'ein Gefuhl.' (Tender feeling). But good manners are still definitely better than none at all! Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 12:35:37 PM
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Foxxy, I'd be happy with all the kids "pretending" to be Ladies and Gents, or just trying to.
If you separate out the Feminist take on things, it all really boils down to courteous behaviour, no bad thing. That applies to everyone, irrespective of gender or age I open doors for anyone, doesn't bother me not going first, and I always use the "manners" I was taught, even to those who don't appreciate it, that's irrelevant. It's a matter of personal pride. Quite apart from which, there's no way I could've taught the kids if I wasn't using them at all times. They absorbed it with their mothers milk, so to speak. Posted by Maximillion, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 4:46:23 PM
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Maximillion
'Manners and courtesy are no longer taught, not in school, and rarely at home, beyond please and thankyou.' How can manners possibly be taught when moral relativism is in vogue? Who says that saying thank you is the right thing to do? Some people think they are doing you a favour by not killing you as you are an infidel in their sight. Again more fruit of Secularism. Posted by runner, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 4:51:33 PM
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"I open doors for anyone, doesn't bother me not going first, and I always use the "manners" I was taught, even to those who don't appreciate it, that's irrelevant. It's a matter of personal pride." - Maximillion.
Exactly - I don't see this as a feminist issue. Your gender has no bearing on whether you behave courteously or not. Why should men only be singled out to behave courteously? It is for both sexes to treat each other with respect. And if that person fails to thank you for being courteous - so what? You have behaved well, you can stand tall. Never expect gratitude, but when you do get it you know have met a fellow traveler. Now, if we could just apply manners to driving... Posted by Fractelle, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 5:09:36 PM
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Dear Max,
I don't see this as a feminist issue either. I fully agree with you and Fractelle. I think I was trying to differentiate between some people being able to display the 'superficiality,' of good manners (outward appearances) but not being capable of more than that. But I didn't quite express it correctly. I mean you can dress up a pig in a tux - but it will still behave like a pig, when all's said and done. It will eventually revert to its natural instincts. ( Like Gordon Ramsay, for example). I made a mistake (according to my mum) it's what the Germans refer to as "Fein Gefuhl." (a fine inner instinct), not "ein Gefuhl," as I had stated earlier. It's something you 're either born with oir you're not. From our posters on OLO - Fractelle is one who definitely has 'it.' So does CJ. And of course our dear examinator , just to name a few. But, when all's said and done - of course - I'll settle for good behaviour and civility over bad - any day! No argument from me on that score Max! Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 5:46:27 PM
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The old people who went through the toughest times of the Great Depression and WW2 in my view are the most pleasant people to be around.In my business the people most trusted are the pensioners with almost no money.They have the money ready in earnest,while some of our filthy rich avoid payment at every turn.
We have lost lot of manners and true values since WW2 but that does not mean we need a war to reverse the trends. Posted by Arjay, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 7:03:48 PM
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WTF runner
Infidel killers can hardly be said to be influenced by secularism. More godbotherers with murder in their hearts, twisted by their scriptures and promises of eternal salvation. Nothing to do with us secularists mate. Posted by mikk, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 8:35:35 PM
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manners serve an agenda, from peace to deprivation.
manners grease the wheels of misogyny, as faux respect for women from men who refuse women their own legislatures attests. manners also prevent the spread of disease and social dysfunction as with swine flu and misogyny. manners are curly creatures. Posted by whistler, Thursday, 11 June 2009 7:44:33 PM
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You're obsessed, whistler.
Today at my local store, a guy I'd never seen before held the door open for me (it's bloody freezing where I live at the moment). Since I'm a big, bearded middle-aged bloke and he was a clean cut younger country bloke, I'm quite sure that there was absolutely no misogyny at work. It was just a case of simple good manners, which are still commonly displayed in the small country town where I live. Indeed, it's one of the reasons I like living here, rather than in a city. Also, I have to say I don't get your comment about manners preventing disease and social dysfunction - while I can think of some ways that this is true, they don't apply particularly to swine flu or misogyny. Perhaps you could elaborate, without necessarily referring to a women's legislature? Posted by CJ Morgan, Thursday, 11 June 2009 8:37:26 PM
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CJ Morgan, the guy you'd never seen before had an agenda.
so did you. dumb people make enemies. two intelligent people collided. i'm occasionally at sydney airport where shaking hands can transmit swine flu! a mannered discussion can resolve misogyny. Posted by whistler, Thursday, 11 June 2009 9:44:39 PM
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Yeah, as long as it consists of agreeing with you.
Perhaps there were no agendas, just two people behaving courteously? Why read your own bizarre ideas into every little thing? That's obsession! Posted by Maximillion, Friday, 12 June 2009 8:44:48 AM
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Er, whistler - the only 'agenda' I had was to exit the shop, while other guy's 'agenda' was to enter it, and we managed to avoid colliding. Actually, I think that common courtesy is (or should be) both 'agenda free' and 'gender free'.
I thought you said that manners can prevent disease, rather than spread it. Indeed, poor hygiene combined with activities like shaking hands can spread any number of diseases, and not just at airports. Also, I suspect that if someone harbours misogynist sentiments, it might take slightly more than a "mannered discussion" to resolve their problem. Posted by CJ Morgan, Friday, 12 June 2009 9:52:41 AM
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2500 years ago Socrates complained about the death of manners in the children. What he doesn't go into is the actual ages of the children.
Some people never seem to mature in some areas. I would submit related issues into the mix with the usual caveat. (*Most of the conclusions below are "In my opinion and observations" ONLY and not necessarily shared by others*.) First what are manners? I think it is reasonable to assume they are the expression of cultural/societal personal behavioural norms (norms= 1 std dev either side of the average/mean [approx 66% of the population]). the logical corollary is The further one gets from those accepted norms the more disapproval/opposition the individual receives. Secondly examinator's law(well borrowed anyway, ok appropriated) "The only constant is change". Therefore what are perceived as manners are constantly changing. Change is resisted increasingly in relation to its relationship to the 'norm' third examinator's theory on contextual acceptability. As per the first point, "behaviour is only acceptable if it meets with 66%(1 std dev) of the CURRENT audience." (group dynamics?) Therefore a persons style of arguing/attitudes may be acceptable in other specific niche areas but it could/should be argued that on this site, topic the wider (dealing with strangers) norm applies. Re my opening it is a function of the pre-maturity to be selfish and 'in your face, I am right no need for logic or facts'. Tragically this does not necessarily correlate with age. PS "examinator's laws et al" are intended as tongue in cheek. ;-) Posted by examinator, Friday, 12 June 2009 11:22:46 AM
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Courtesy is just rational behaviour.
For example, people need to be allowed space to exit a place, eg, public transport before others can enter - this is in line with the basic law of physics that two solid objects cannot share the same time and space (not getting into quantum physics here). So WTF is it with people who cannot step aside so that others can exit, thus clearing space for those who want entry? It is not specific to gender, race or creed; there are morons who seem to think they can board a train by physically walking though others. My question is this, being a normally mild mannered type, do I have the right to kick a few shins or would this only exacerbate the problem? Due to a very bad back ATM I am not as nimble at avoiding these idiots but still have strong legs and can recall my Tae Kwon Do days. Any suggestions? Posted by Fractelle, Friday, 12 June 2009 12:12:09 PM
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CJ Morgan, I don't buy your naive country bumpkin analogy.
the well mannered, clean cut younger country bloke you mention might have had a dozen agendas. he may have just murdered someone, or just escaped from Goulburn Supermax and was using manners to avoid bringing himself under suspicion. he might be on parole and any complaint against him of impropriety might send him straight back to the slammer. his uncle might know someone who's got a hundred million dollars tied up in a Nigerian bank and he's looking to groom a big, bearded middle-aged mark to reveal credit card details next time you meet. or he may been genuinely wanting to assist a more senior person out of compassion. you don't know what his agenda was apart from entering the door. you don't even seem to know what your own agenda was apart from exiting the door. human interraction is a tad more complex than the engagement of one-dimensional agendas, or no agendas whatsoever, just automatons passing in the night, as Maximillion posits. did you check whether he picked your pockets on your way out as you relaxed into his well-mannered embrace? as you know it is considered good manners to wear a mask if you have the flu to prevent the spread of disease. not shaking hands during a global pandemic is reverse manners, where politeness to prevent disease overrides the politeness of a conventional greeting. i apologise if the example I gave seemed ambiguous. moreover, adopting the manners towards women applied to grease the wheels of mysogyny does not correlate with the use of the same manners once misogyny is eliminated with the provision of women's legislatures. mysogyny is best resolved with polite discussion between a women's caucus and a men's caucus hosted by the Senate and the House of Representatives to reach agreement to amend Australia's Constitution to provide for a women's legislature. it is unlikely that those who label the pursuit of equal rights between women and men as bizarre would be admitted. manners serve an agenda. Posted by whistler, Friday, 12 June 2009 12:53:50 PM
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Thought this might be of interest re: feminism and manners.
The idea is that manners were something conferred on middle and upper class white women; not on women generally. Manners were used as 'evidence' of women being inherently weak and thereby used as a rationale for denying women's rights. Sojourner Truth was a slave who rose to speak at a general meeting: 1851 "Wall, chilern, whar dar is so much racket dar must be somethin' out o' kilter. I tink dat 'twixt de ni_ggers of de Souf and de womin at de Norf, all talkin' 'bout rights, de white men will be in a fix pretty soon. But what's all dis here talkin' 'bout? Dat man ober dar say dat womin needs to be helped into carriages, and lifted ober ditches, and to hab de best place everywhar. Nobody eber helps me into carriages, or ober mud-puddles, or gibs me any best place!" And raising herself to her full height, and her voice to a pitch like rolling thunder, she asked. 'And ain't I a woman? Look at me! Look at my arm! (and she bared her right arm to the shoulder, showing her tremendous muscular power). I have ploughed, and planted, and gathered into barns, and no man could head me! And ain't I a woman? I could work as much and eat as much as a man--when I could get it--and bear de lash as well! And ain't I a woman? I have borne thirteen chilern, and seen 'em mos' all sold off to slavery, and when I cried out with my mother's grief, none but Jesus heard me! And ain't I a woman? "Den dey talks 'bout dis ting in de head; what dis dey call it?" ("Intellect," whispered some one near.) "Dat's it, honey. What's dat got to do wid womin's rights or ni_gger's rights? cont'd Posted by Pynchme, Friday, 12 June 2009 1:16:33 PM
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Sojourner Truth's speech cont'd:
If my cup won't hold but a pint, and yourn holds a quart, wouldn't ye be mean not to let me have my little half-measure full?" And she pointed her significant finger, and sent a keen glance at the minister who had made the argument. The cheering was long and loud. "Den dat little man in black dar, he say women can't have as much rights as men, 'cause Christ wan't a woman! Whar did your Christ come from?" Rolling thunder couldn't have stilled that crowd, as did those deep, wonderful tones, as she stood there with out-stretched arms and eyes of fire. Raising her voice still louder, she repeated, "Whar did your Christ come from? From God and a woman! Man had nothin' to do wid Him." Oh, what a rebuke that was to that little man. Turning again to another objector, she took up the defense of Mother Eve. I can not follow her through it all. It was pointed, and witty, and solemn; eliciting at almost every sentence deafening applause; and she ended by asserting: "If de fust woman God ever made was strong enough to turn de world upside down all alone, dese women togedder (and she glanced her eye over the platform) ought to be able to turn it back, and get it right side up again! And now dey is asking to do it, de men better let 'em." Long-continued cheering greeted this. "'Bleeged to ye for hearin' on me, and now ole Sojourner han't got nothin' more to say." http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/sojtruth2.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sojourner_Truth I do the same as CJ, Fractelle and others have described; whoever gets to the door first holds it open for others; the one passing through says, "thanks". Posted by Pynchme, Friday, 12 June 2009 1:20:39 PM
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“you don't even seem to know what your own agenda was apart from exiting the door.”
Your paranoia is showing! moreover, adopting the manners towards women applied to grease the wheels of mysogyny does not correlate with the use of the same manners once misogyny is eliminated with the provision of women's legislatures. And we all get a set of steak knives too. it is unlikely that those who label the pursuit of equal rights between women and men as bizarre would be admitted. Equal rights already exist, by law and practice, and there is also “positive discrimination” that acts as reverse discrimination against men, eg family court, single parent services, and more. What I labelled bizarre was the way YOU twist everything around in your cries for a women’s legislature, as if it was some sort of universal nostrum, and apply it to totally unconnected discussions. Here, I’ll even quote myself, just so you can’t deny it… “Why read your own bizarre ideas into every little thing? That's obsession!” And I stand by that, that you have an irrational obsession, I can’t help but wonder what befell you to induce it, it’s certainly unusual. A classic symptom of obsessional paranoia is to see “agendas” in everything, even the most simple acts, such as holding a door for a stranger Posted by Maximillion, Friday, 12 June 2009 2:21:27 PM
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Re: People who won't wait for others to exit.
I take it kicking is inappropriate then. Rats. Posted by Fractelle, Friday, 12 June 2009 2:42:10 PM
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Whistler, it wasn't an analogy, it was an anecdote - and I don't really care if you "buy" it or not. It was something that happened to me yesterday that involved a courteous social interaction with a stranger.
I'm very glad that I don't harbour the rather paranoid delusions about hidden agendas that you project on to others, nor your obsession with gender apartheid. Good manners prevent me from elaborating further. Have a nice day. Posted by CJ Morgan, Friday, 12 June 2009 2:51:44 PM
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Maximillion, women do not have the same right to their own legislaure as men no matter how hard you rant about paranoia and obsession.
your incessant denial becomes more desperate with every post. CJ Morgan gender apartheid is what Australian women experience every day. i'll add you to my list of those on this forum perfectly contect that women live with what for men would be prison conditions with respect to rape and sexual violence. speak your mind more often when people are rude Fractelle, encourage support from others. by speaking your mind here you're already halfway there. Posted by whistler, Friday, 12 June 2009 3:56:28 PM
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Gee, I never realised that Bronwyn Bishop, Anna Bligh, Julia Gillard, Natasha Scott-despoja et. al. were actually men in drag! Alert the media!
Oh, and what denial? I didn’t deny anything, and I won’t say what springs to mind there, lol! Whistler, I suggest you climb out of whatever weird box you’re in, and talk to a cross-section of real women, ones with jobs, families, dreams and aspirations, you sorely need an education. I showed some of your posts to some women, and they all laughed, but I won’t say what they thought of you and your “suggestions”, I’d be banned! Posted by Maximillion, Friday, 12 June 2009 4:24:20 PM
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Fractelle,
I know what you mean about letting others exit before barging in to get a seat. I also find it irratating when some will not move over even a little bit when aproaching and the young are the worst for this. It is tempting to kick but my guess you are too well mannered to do that but try holding your umbrella in a slightly offensive way and if you happen to stick them you can always say 'sorry'. Some need a gentle reminder. Jewely, Good to see you teach manners to the kids and I bet some you get are fairly feral. Foxy, We know you are a lady and very well mannered. All three of you have a good sense of humour which is a big plus. I just bet your kids are well mannered too. It would be my pleasure to hold the door open for you anytime. Some commercial doors are bloody heavy aren't they? Posted by Banjo, Friday, 12 June 2009 4:29:37 PM
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Banjo
Actually I do sometimes 'accidentally' step on toes or bump into people, I then apologise of course - while smiling. It is very satisfying, because I think sometimes the bullies know they are actually in the wrong, but if they are so arrogant as to not realise, I have the satisfaction of a little revenge. But overall one does require a sense of humour. I do some acting when I can get it and don't mind a little impromptu performance. One day on the train a woman who sat next to me thought she required more than just her seat and shoved me. I let out a groan and began to cry - everyone around us stared at her. I said I'd been in car accident (which is true but 15 years ago) and that I had a bad back which is also true, but not at that time. She didn't apologise, but said how was she to know I was injured? To which I replied, 'she didn't, but perhaps in future she should refrain from pushing people - 'just in case''. Everyone was giving her the 'hairy eye-ball' and I had to keep myself from laughing and, of course, when I disembarked from the train, had do so with my stiff sore back. However, there are times when I have been in a great deal of pain. Oddly I have stayed silent - its when I'm feeling healthy and strong I will take on the bullies. Posted by Fractelle, Friday, 12 June 2009 5:39:28 PM
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Whistler
There are two issues with speaking your mind; - that you have something intelligent or useful to say. Sadly both those options require thought, rationality, objectivity, provable facts, to be in the mix. - Assertions require none of the above however they prove nothing, convince no one either. In which case all that happens is you waste both opportunity and time. Wise saying: if you have an axe to grind by a stone not a computer. Posted by examinator, Friday, 12 June 2009 6:00:32 PM
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Dear Banjo,
Thank You for the lovely compliment. You're warm-hearted and a gentleman. I'm always delighted when people are kind to each other - be it opening doors, or helping someone in distress. Even smiling helps. It's amazing the reactions you get simply by giving someone a smile. (Especially the elderly). Graciousness, a kind word, common courtesy, doesn't cost anything - and the rewards are plentiful. You make some person feel good, and you feel good as well. I do it all the time. It's become second nature to me. Mum often asks, 'Why are people smiling at you?' 'Cause I smile first!' Posted by Foxy, Friday, 12 June 2009 7:08:42 PM
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The "old" way, politeness, courtesy, manners in general, seem to be falling out of favour.
I was raised the old way, and did the same with my kids. Then, and even now, I receive compliments on my kids manners, and the "smoothness" of their social skills, their polish. It seems rare nowadays, they stand out from their crowd.
The Fems derided manners as putting women down, and from their point of view I suppose that had some merit, yet I wonder, have we thrown out the baby with the bathwater?
As the Japanese show, manners are the grease of social interactions, the framework of behaviour that permits social comfort. That would seem to be in short supply these days, perhaps there's a connection there?