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The Forum > General Discussion > Muslim Children in State Schools

Muslim Children in State Schools

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Salaam

Muslim children have been attending state schools for tha last 60 years. They have been suffering from Paki-bashing and bullying. Majority of them have been leaving schools with low grades. They have been leaving schools without learning their cultural and linguistic skiils. The result is that they do not know where they belong. They suffer from Identity crises. Now Muslim youths are victim of terrorism. Thousands of them are being searched in streets and hundreds of them are behind the bar without any trial.

Bilingual Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with bilingual Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods. There is no place for a non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school.

There are hundreds of state and church schools where Muslim children are in majority. In my opinion, all such schools may be designated as Muslim community schools.

Bilingual Muslim children need to learn and be well versed in standard English to follow the National Curriculum and go for higher studies and research to serve humanity. At the same time, they need to learn and be well versed in Arabic, Urdu and other community languages to keep in touch with their cultural roots and enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry.

A Muslim is a citizen of this tiny global village. He/she does not want to become notorioulsy monolingul Brit.
Iftikhar Ahmad
London School of Islamics Trust
www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk
Posted by Iftikhar, Saturday, 30 May 2009 9:43:22 PM
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I need to tread with care, this fisherman knows about baits.
Its something I can not win.
But is it true?
Are Muslims being so badly treated in our schools?
Well its a chance kids can be cruel.
And they love to copy mum and dads words.
But separation?
Is that an answer?
I strongly think not.
If it is happening we MUST stop it.
group education is not a threat.
I see it as a promise, proof we can live together.
Seen the photos of kids from so many country,s in school?
No sir/madam I do not agree.
If you are right Multi culture,ism is doomed.
Yes fully aware of church run schools do not agree with them.
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 31 May 2009 2:12:18 PM
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Hello to you too, Iftikhar Ahmad,

I'm unclear because you refer to Brits in your
opening post, and you've signed yourself as
being from the London School of Islamic Trust,
whether you talking about Muslim children in
State Schools in Britain or in Australia?

I'm not familiar with the situation if the UK,
so I can only speak about Australia. Here we
have many privately run - religious schools -
to which parents can choose to send their children.
Including Muslim schools, where the child will get
the focus that the parents desire.

State schools of course, don't provide a select education.
Their emphasis is broader.

I imagine that its the same in the UK.

In other words, if you want a certain type of education
for your children - you have to be prepared to pay
for a private education. The state can't afford to
cater to every parents wishes for their children.
It's a choice that parents must make - whether to
send their child to a public school, or a private,
more specialised school that will cater to the
requirements that the parents want for their child
to achieve.

I'm afraid that the choice is up to the parents to make.
Unless of course you happen to live in an Islamic
country.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 31 May 2009 3:53:31 PM
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While understand the issues that any non anglo white and anyone who doesn't fit readily into the "assumed socially accepted" definition goes through I can't support the suggestion in this topic.

With over 200 nationalities as many religions including denominations, sects and variations on a theme all with similar claims it is simply unrealistic to expect others (the tax payer) to pay for separate schools a minority like Muslim at under 5% of the population.

I also question the assumed cause and effect relationship 'Muslims get picked therefore they leave schools early therefore we need separate schools. I would suggest that is an overly simplistic analysis that wouldn't stand under close examination.

Nor does this separate mentality solve the underlying problems...That of the children fitting in and maximizing their future chances.
I would suggest that the route cause is discrimination it's self and that should be reduced to manageable levels.

I would also point out that there are many reasons for the discrimination ranging from group dynamics, fear of changes, pressures from the home and community. Tragically 1st and some 2nd generation migrants find that they fall between both cultures and suffer accordingly. These environment or the host country V 'home' cultures can exacerbate a difficult situation.

I believe that managing the discrimination and helping the children deal with 'both worlds' is a far smarter solution.
What this country doesn't need is some notion of racial, creed differentiation be institutionalized.
Not withstanding this doesn't mean assimilate or spend no more on these children than the standard Aussie . it is a matter of greatest need and in my mind these children are of extreme need of help
Posted by examinator, Sunday, 31 May 2009 4:08:43 PM
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as a duchie,..i learned the truth of the dutch saying..what the parents say in their home..their kids say in the streets,i was picked on because of my dutch name..and poor english skills..in the end i learned we cant run away from what we are

we as parents can try to control our childrens lives..but in the end they have to learn to make their own way, parents are reluctant to change[as they have their own peer system..just as the kids will develop theirs]

its hard to give advice to others,because you can say what you like[and they will still be doing as they do]..by the time i had finished grade three,my parents had enough of this english system[and they[we all returned home[only to find egsactly the same thing,this time i was ridiculed because of my poor dutch skills

anyhow in time we emagrated back to australia[and i began highschool,again copping stress from my peers..for another 4 years of education..i essentially grew up without peers[i still have none]..

im still not sure what anyone can say to change things that are as they are]..i would say that i learned mostly who i am..in the end that is all that matters

as to advice i would say you need a student exchange system[where kids having trouble are sent back home, briefly to know their roots and culture..then let them decide,..where they would rather live

see that parents have their own reasons for leaving..just as kids need a reason for wanting to learn..clearly thye kids not learning cant see the value[oppertuinity they have been given..but being intelligent beings must be shown the alternatives..[so they too can decide who/what/where they want to be]

if kids are failing to value education there dosnt seem much to lose sending them home..so they too can see why their parents chose to live where they live...

it is said it takes three generations to fully get the hang of the new country..its hardest on the 2 generation..[you must fully comprehend the stress on them..[as the beginning point to any real change]
Posted by one under god, Sunday, 31 May 2009 4:38:29 PM
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Dear Iftikhar,

I forgot to mention that many of the ethnic communities
in Australia have their own Saturday morning schools -
where the teachers are from their community and teach
the language, history, and culture of that community.

The subjects taught greatly assist students in
understanding the history and culture of their ancestors.
Also the languages learned - often help in gaining
extra points in their High School Certificates - and
give them an edge in gaining more points when looking for
acceptance to a university.

Most sizeable ethnic communities in Australia have such
week-end schools. And, based on application and meeting
the necessary criteria, obtain moderate government
funding.

It may be worth your while to investigate this possibility
in the region you are located. Otherwise, if Muslims
don't have these week-end schools currently, it may be
worth while suggesting that they look into the matter.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 31 May 2009 5:19:03 PM
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Dear Foxy

I have run out of posts on your "Aussie Prejudice" discussion - so will respond to you tomorrow.

Now, this topic. I don't give a rats whether Middle Eastern countries ban Christian schools, in Australia we have freedom of religion, therefore if Christians, Buddhists and calthumpiams can build their religious based schools, so too can Muslims.

Personally I'd rather do away with private schools of all stripes - so that we would not have another level of segregation to deal with. I'm sick to death of the likes of Peter Sellick judging atheists and other non-Christians, last thing I want is some Iman telling me I'm a zombie as well.

If children are being bullied for their appearance or race, then that is what EDUCATION is for. From parents and teachers, they are the ones to teach that all people have equal rights, responsibilities and are entitled to RESPECT.
Posted by Fractelle, Sunday, 31 May 2009 6:05:10 PM
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I still have doubts, why would the English tax payer need to fund such a school?
Yes we have private schools for every creed.
But some of our highest test results come from people who are not of Australian extract.
And from public schools.
Lets not forget the positives in public school
Posted by Belly, Monday, 1 June 2009 5:41:18 AM
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If this is actually THE Iftikhar Ahmad, I'd be surprised.

"Bilingual Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with bilingual Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods. There is no place for a non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school."

Yeah, this is where I have problems with the topic. What's next, Sharia courts in Britain?....oh wait...

How about creating AFTER school Islamic schooling for your kids?.
Posted by StG, Monday, 1 June 2009 8:30:44 AM
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Given that adherents of any other religion - most predominantly Christianity - are legally able to establish religion-based schools in Australia, and I presume in the UK, I can't see any problems with Muslims doing so if that's what they want.

My only proviso is that, just like Christian schools, they shouldn't be taxpayer-funded.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Monday, 1 June 2009 8:57:27 AM
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In the United States an important step toward racial equality was the US Supreme Court decision in 1952 that segregated schools are inherently unequal. It was a step on the road to the presidency of Barack Obama. In the US religious schools are legal, but it is against the law to provide them with any government funding.

The USA has progressed from a country where Catholics could not attain high office and a federal law against lynching could not be passed to the election of a black president and a Catholic vice-president in a country which has a majority of white Protestant Christians.

Children have a tendency to bully those regarded as the Other. They also have a tendency to accept those who they are familiar with. It is unreasonable to put Muslim children in separate schools and then expect them and their non-Muslim associates to work together as adults without attitudes of suspicion and distrust.

One of the goals of education in a democratic society is to prepare children to enter that society as adults and in a democratic country be accepted for their worth as humans regardless of their ethnic or religious background. Segregation whether by religion, ethnicity or social class opposes that goal.
Posted by david f, Monday, 1 June 2009 10:33:35 AM
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I have two grandaughters attending a State Senior High School in Sydney West of Years 11 and 12 with over 1,200 children and with probably 8 - 10% of students with Middle Eastern heritage. These children have adapted well because their parents are not pushing the exclusive nature of Islam into their childrens minds. They are among the most respected children in class.

Exclusine schools largely based in national identity breeds tribalism, which is the nature of the Middle Eastern conflicts. They seperate themselves on the basis of tribes and different views of Islam. If we want shools based in skin colour or national identity we will have imported the same conflicts presently rampant in the Middle East.

It is the way to breed further social conflict, not solve it.
Posted by Philo, Monday, 1 June 2009 11:01:36 AM
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Further to CJ's comments, I would go on to say that I am personally completely opposed to religious schools of any denomination on the grounds that it is repugnant to indoctrinate children period. Schools here should teach comparative religion only, and when the child comes of age, then and only then should they be legally able to choose a religion.

I would say comes of age is not when they are 18, but rather when they are independent.

..

Indeed, children can be extremely cruel, as are guvments who have long known this and done nothing to improve the security situation in the playground/during recess.

..

NEWSFLASH: I bring good news from Indo dear computer poppets. The Indo girl "married" to a member of the so called royal family of malaysia has escaped, from the alleged depravities of a cruel, physically and psychologically abusive male and his family, who did amongst other things repeatedly rape her, forbid her from going out alone and contacting her family.

Whilst in singapore she phoned the indo consulate, who didn't want to know, even though it has been big news in the media here for months.

So she phoned

*Barry Obama & Auntie Sam et al*

at the N.American Embassy. Reports have been low key and thin on detail but she is now free and back in Indo with family and friends.

" ... WWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAA ... "

MY view, if the malaysians won't prosecute, then sanctions should be considered. If nothing else, n.a. tech plants should go elsewhere.
Posted by DreamOn, Monday, 1 June 2009 12:16:08 PM
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There's no place for religion in schools.

When I was a kid, state schools were of single denomination, Catholic or Protestant. This led to all towns having at least two schools. Not much fun when you had to walk home past the other school and the older pupils there would harrass and ask what religion you belonged to.

It wasn't until Uni or College that both religions were educated together.

Integrated schools prevent all this crap. One of the reasons I brought my kids to Australia.
Posted by Austin Powerless, Monday, 1 June 2009 3:40:42 PM
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From http://www.thefourthr.info/index.html

Education Queensland's administration of religious instruction is an intelligence-challenging disgrace. Contrary to the 'opt out' myth perpetuated by the moralistic minority, legislation decrees that over 80% of the entire Queensland State school student population must not be placed in religious instruction sessions without written parental authorisation. They are required to 'opt-in' because a faith/religion (or lack of) has not been provided in the optional space on their school enrolment forms. A mere 15% of Queensland State students are eligible for religious instruction without written parental permission.

Education Queensland religious policy would appear to be remote-controlled by REAC (EQ's Religious Education Advisory Committee) Fiona Simpson, ACL, fundamentalist Christian zealots and extremists within every stratum of EQ as well as fundamentalist Christian usurped P&C committees across the state. Education Queensland's two online religious instruction/chaplaincy 'guidelines' webpages have systematically been reduced to ambiguous, confusing blogs.

2007 added the illegal installation ('chaplaincy' or 'chaplain' doesn't appear in Qld Education Legislation) of Federally/State funded Scripture Union fundamental evangelists into the vast majority of Queensland state high and primary schools. Now, from the chaplaincy Trojan horse of the Assemblies of God/Hillsong affiliated Queensland Scripture Union are emerging hundreds of in-tongues-talking Pentecostal 'volunteers' running multiple controversial Hillsong programmes including SHINE and STRENGTH—with the approval and enthusiastic TV news story endorsement of Education Queensland. With the assistance of EQ, male and female students are recruited by Scripture Union chaplains to attend Pentecostal/Hillsong intensive Jesus boot camps, thus completing the evangelism cycle: gain trust; groom; convert.

We doubt there would be, or could be, anything resembling this sinister absurdity allowed to occur with government funding, endorsement and encouragement anywhere else within the 'developed' world.
Posted by david f, Monday, 1 June 2009 4:00:43 PM
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I don’t think that they having been attending state schools in Australia for 60 years. The few Muslims we had here 60 years ago would have attended school as Australians like everybody else. That was before multiculturalism and our current absurd political correctness.

The London School of Economics this bloke identifies with is full of PC lefties, so we should take what he says with a grain of salt. He should realise that, in Australia, non-Muslims do teach in Muslim schools, and Muslim kids go to state schools and Catholic schools, without the problems which occur in the UK.

Muslims kids should be learning about their own culture at home; not at the expense of the taxpayer – UK or Australian. The trouble with Muslims in the UK, is they don’t know a lot about the host culture.

Everything that could go wrong following the mass importing of Muslims to the UK has gone wrong. The UK should be used as a lesson for Australia and a rule for what NOT to do.

So far we have not had the problems that the UK has – in anything to do with Muslims
Posted by Leigh, Monday, 1 June 2009 5:44:14 PM
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I would suggest that any form of bullying that happens here in our schools is not even close to what those children have to deal with day to day in their own country.

Just be happy that we don't (YET) have suicide bombers or car bombs exploding in our streets, public venues and schools.

As foxy says, you can have alomst anything you wish for, just as long as you pay for it.

Now on the other hand, our homeland children often miss out on Christmas celebrations and I understand that santa can no longer ho,ho,ho, thanks to the efforts of some of our invisted guests.

This is Australia. Like it or not and remember, you are free to leave at any time.
Posted by rehctub, Monday, 1 June 2009 5:49:57 PM
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Dear Iftikhar,

As I mentioned on another thread - a pioneering study
was done at the University of Tasmania in 1999 that
demonstrated that every immigrant who has made
Australia his permanent home, has three affiliations:
1) his ethnic nationality, for example, Lebanese.
2) his religion, for example, Muslim. and
3) his citizenship, for example, Australian.
It is essential to ensure that none of these
elements clash. If they do, the citizenship - complete
with all of its obligations - must unconditionally have
the upper hand. If the clash cannot be resolved, the
citizenship must be forfeited.

It isn't possible to lose one's ethnic nationality overnight.
It takes a generation or several generations to mutate from
being, say, Lebanese to becoming an Australian. This should
create no problems, if the person's loyalty to Australia
is absolute and overrides everything else.

It can be done, and has been done many times in the past.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 1 June 2009 6:34:16 PM
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Dear Foxy.

You wrote: "This should create no problems, if the person's loyalty to Australia is absolute and overrides everything else."

I believe loyalty to any entity should be provisional and must be abandoned when that loyalty mandates that we violate our conscience.
Posted by david f, Monday, 1 June 2009 7:28:45 PM
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“You wrote: "This should create no problems, if the person's loyalty to Australia is absolute and overrides everything else."”

“I believe loyalty to any entity should be provisional and must be abandoned when that loyalty mandates that we violate our conscience.”

Hey David, I think Foxy is right. If you move to a land your loyalty must transfer with it.

I don’t know if that also implies shutting up and putting up though. More a decision to prioritize… if there is a war I stay on Australia’s side with Australians.

Doesn’t mean I wont complain about the white school kids that fight with the Muslim school kids locally, regularly.
Posted by Jewely, Monday, 1 June 2009 7:49:52 PM
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Dear Jewely.

I think those Germans who were not loyal to their country during WW2 and tried to assassinate Hitler who was the legitimate leader of their country were better than those who were loyal to their country.

I disagree with both Foxy and you.

I believe it is more important to be a decent human being than to be a loyal human being. The two may conflict.
Posted by david f, Monday, 1 June 2009 8:01:20 PM
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“I believe it is more important to be a decent human being than to be a loyal human being. The two may conflict.”

I didn’t know some Germans tried to kill him… but they would have been trying to out of loyalty to their country not loyalty to one man?

Maybe being loyal is a part of being a decent human. Loyalty to family, religion, race, country etc… I think Foxy was putting them in an order of preference or in an order that makes sense to a country/people as a whole?
Posted by Jewely, Monday, 1 June 2009 8:13:19 PM
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Dear David f,

I should have possibly explained my previous post
in the context in which it was meant to be taken.

And that was - how much integration or assimilation
should be expected from migrants who settle in
Australia?

This new focus on migrants has been prompted by the
alarming spread of international terrorism since 2001.
There have been many incidents in which suicide bombers
of extremist Muslim persuasion were alleged to have
committed the crimes. Most of the suspects were
seemingly law-abiding immigrants or their offspring.

In Australia, the numbers of Muslim immigrants settling in
this country are growing fast. Australians are wondering:
Is it possible to maintain one's ethnic and cultural 'roots'
and identity, while also subscribing totally to the
underpinning values of Australia as a liberal democracy?

It was in answer to this question that the study to which
I referred to in my previous post was directed.

I hope this clarifies things for you. This wasn't a question
of "my country right or wrong."
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 1 June 2009 8:36:37 PM
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Muslims, just like Christians and Jews already have a choice of private or public schools.

To argue for exclusively Muslim state schools is just what we don't need. All this does is increase segregation, ghettos and along with that animosity towards others who are different. Wouldn't it be better that we all integrate within public schools that may have a number of options for language study and most importantly, are free from religious division.

Religion like culture is a personal matter and can be learnt and appreciated at home,through one's Church and through community activity.

Many children are bullied for different reasons. In my experience kids tend to be bullied more for being fat, disabled, being a nerd, wearing different clothes etc. Better the issues of bullying are handled within a mixed school which will enhance a better understanding and appreciation for our differences.
Posted by pelican, Monday, 1 June 2009 8:44:18 PM
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" ... I believe loyalty to any entity should be provisional and must be abandoned when that loyalty mandates that we violate our conscience. ... "

Yes, I agree with DaveO. The military in particluar need a "legal" conscience vote. I don't buy this argument that there is diminished responsiblity on the grounds of an individual only doing what he/she/other were ordered to do.

Yes, I have seen a doco on the attempted assassination of a.hitler. Thankful too we should be for his psych shooting him up and the moronic winter assault on russia.

The german military aswell as the japs were all whacked on methamphetamine too I read on Wikipedia. Hmmm .. but alas I digress.

My young <edit> are not long out of the state school system though. And one of the award winning better ones I might add. But still, out of control they are, referring to themselves as the chemical generation .. from durries to dealing in dexamphetamine .. just completely out of control, and it has been at least for the last 30 years that I know of.

I want for our children to know of Islam as well as all of the other faiths of the world .. but not thru the vehicle of religion.
Posted by DreamOn, Monday, 1 June 2009 11:41:21 PM
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I think we have been tip toeing around this issue wispering to each other.
In truth I am still unsure why the thread was posted.
And who really posted it.
But I have no doubt none at all, its rude to expect the British tax payer to pay to segregate,that,s what it is, children.
If we take this complaint as true it points to total failure of multi culturism.
We see evendence in our schools it is just not so.
And thankfully I can say this in my country, sooner we stop telling ourselves the bedtime fairy tale story,s about Gods who never existed the sooner we can fix things that divide us.
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 2 June 2009 5:09:26 AM
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Belly says:

"I think we have been tip toeing around this issue wispering to each other. In truth I am still unsure why the thread was posted. And who really posted it."

Taking the opening poster at face value as a muslim of Pakistani origin living in Britain, Australian posters have responded with respect to a demand seemingly being made upon UK taxpayers for special wholly-state-funded schools exclusively staffed by muslims, for exclusively muslim students. It should be noted that the opening poster's demand is also for an exclusive muslim take-over of many Church schools: this take-over presumably to be effected by compulsory aquisition at public expense, as the issue of compensation, or indeed even agreement of church school managements to take-overs, is not addressed by the opening poster.

If anything was to suggest that this topic has been put up as a troll, the demand with respect to church schools would be it. Yet nobody has risen to the bait, if that is what it is. Excluding the opening poster, eighteen different users have now posted to this topic thread. Only one post has been off-topic, and even there was acceptably tangential to the topic. What is interesting is that so far there has been not one 'whack a mozzie'-style post put up to a topic clearly indicating it is about muslim issues: 'Muslim Children in State Schools'.

What is also interesting is that a number of responses have identified the claimed requirements of the OP, inasmuch as they are seen as applying in an Australian situation, with respect to the education of the children of Islamic parents as being indicative of the failure of the policy of 'multiculturalism'.

Taking my cue from an item on the OP's home page, might I suggest that what is needed with respect to 'corporate' or 'organised' Islam in Australia is a 'Mosque of England in Australia' structure, with Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II as its supreme head. That way, issues with respect to Islamic religious freedom and Australian law could be consistently resolved.
Posted by Forrest Gumpp, Tuesday, 2 June 2009 6:49:55 AM
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Dear davidf and foxy,

“One of the goals of education in a democratic society is to prepare children to enter that society as adults and in a democratic country be accepted for their worth as humans regardless of their ethnic or religious background. Segregation whether by religion, ethnicity or social class opposes that goal.” davidf

“Is it possible to maintain one's ethnic and cultural 'roots'
and identity, while also subscribing totally to the
underpinning values of Australia as a liberal democracy?” foxy

Both are sentiments/questions to which I am quite sympathetic.

As always I find it instructive to look to place the shoe on the other foot to see if it still fits.

In Victoria “a significant majority of Jewish students, estimated at 77 per cent, attend non-government schools, with 62 per cent attending Jewish day schools.”
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-34105173_ITM

Note this is almost the reverse of other Australian students where 65% attend state schools.

“France has only four Muslim schools. So the 8,847 Roman Catholic schools have become a refuge for Muslims seeking what an overburdened, secularist public sector often lacks: spirituality, an environment in which good manners count alongside mathematics and higher academic standards.”… “MARSEILLE: The bright cafeteria of Saint Mauront Catholic school is conspicuously quiet: It is Ramadan and 80 percent of the students are Muslim. When the lunch bell rings, girls and boys stream out past the crucifixes and the large wooden cross in the corridor, heading for Muslim midday prayer.”
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/22654/islam-in-france

CANBERRA, July 27 AAP - “An Australian fighting with the Israeli army has been killed during a fierce battle in southern Lebanon. … The Australian citizen moved back to Israel two and a half years ago to enlist in the army, according to Israeli media reports.”

“Australians could be committing a serious offense under Australian law if they fight for Hizbullah in Lebanon, the attorney-general warned Thursday. Attorney-General Philip Ruddock warned that traveling to a foreign country to fight under some circumstances is an offense under Australia's toughened counter-terrorism laws punishable by 25 years in prison.” Jpost.com

I think the toes are pinching just a little.
Posted by csteele, Thursday, 4 June 2009 1:06:13 AM
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Dear csteele,

You pointed out the disparity between Australia's treatment of Muslim schools and Australia's treatment of Jewish schools and France's Catholic schools acceptance of Muslim students where they find an atmosphere of spirituality. You have also pointed out the disparity of treatment of Australians fighting for Hizbullah and Australians fighting for Israel.

I am a Jew and do not favour government subsidy of private schools whether they be Jewish, Muslim, Christian or anything else. If we want to have a society where we do not look on the other with suspicion we should not segregate school children by race, religion or other criteria unrelated to the development of their potential as individuals. Rather than use the example of the aid that government gives Christian and Jewish religious schools as a reason for doing the same thing for the Muslim community government should not be supporting religious or non-public schools of any kind. If parents want to send their children to such schools it should be their right. However, they or their religious community should pay for it, and the schools should be obliged to teach what children need to know to be productive adults in Australian society. I think the government's support for Jewish and Christian schools is wrong and does not justify extending that wrongness to Muslims. Government subsidies to non-public schools of any description should be eliminated.

Retention of one's ethnic and religious roots and an atmosphere of spirituality is a matter of individual choice which should not be funded by the government. All those who have voluntarily come to Australia simply have to accept they are living in Australian society. An exception can be made for those whose roots have been destroyed by government action. Aborigines have been dispossessed of their land, forced to live on missions which have had little or no regard for their spiritual practices and have been thrown together regardless of their tribal roots. They have had an alien religion forced on them so an exception can be made as Australian society has been forced on them.

continued
Posted by david f, Thursday, 4 June 2009 6:04:53 AM
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continued

In the public schools the school chaplaincy program has put fundamentalist Scripture Union Christian chaplains in the schools. Their avowed goal is to convert children to their brand of Christianity. Trained counselors who do not have any agenda of religious conversion should replace them.

France gives no state subsidies to Catholic schools so your example is not relevant.

I also think Australians should have a right to fight for any foreign entity as long as that entity is not at war with Australia and does not act against Australia. The Australian counter-terrorism laws go too far.
Posted by david f, Thursday, 4 June 2009 6:08:56 AM
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i support the trend unraveling in this post[that all austr-alian children be educated in the public school system,where all religions are taught[including ab-origonal]...that kids formost know of the specific god of love before being indoctrinated in the specfic god of vbengence that seeks divisive sects based on one messenger or other..that private schools funded by govt funding is an athima...not a penny more should go to these divisive education systems..[it should be compulsory that public education fill in the formative years..[of primary school],with base facts of science/religion/language that forms a common base understanding of the mateship we call austra-alian ..that form a common wealth in the common wealth of the people that in-form's all equally into the aussie version of the basics,...that make us one nation,that from the common basics we then collectivly from then on are achieving our individual obligations but all knowing it is underpinned by a sure communal base..they may chose to go into the private institutions,or the so called higher institutions[or a trade]..but the private selectivism of the various religious seggregationist schools must not get a penny of govt funds,..it is clear that some elites schoiols are very adept at getting the cash flow from govt[and others are mind programing children into an elitism that is hurting the union of states we collectivly inhabit as australians first
Posted by one under god, Thursday, 4 June 2009 8:17:29 AM
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UOG

If I have deciphered your post correctly, I think I agree with you that:

1. There should be no segregation of children into different religious schools.
2. Religious schools should not be funded by our taxes.
3. That comparative religion be taught as a subject, so that children have an understanding of all religions and can make up their own minds.
4. That religious schools divide the community and increase intolerance towards different people.
Posted by Fractelle, Thursday, 4 June 2009 9:27:58 AM
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Dear davidf,

Thank you for your response.

Having conversed with you before in other forums what you have stated here was expected. However I felt it needed to be reiterated to allow me to make my point in the proper setting.

You said,

“I am a Jew and do not favour government subsidy of private schools whether they be Jewish, Muslim, Christian or anything else. If we want to have a society where we do not look on the other with suspicion we should not segregate school children by race, religion or other criteria unrelated to the development of their potential as individuals.”

Again I agree with the sentiment however I do have problems with the reality. This is my dilemma.

“The majority of Australian Jews have incomes well above the national average--$61,400 compared to $39,000 per annum”
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-34105173_ITM

(It should be noted in the same article “more than 27 per cent of Jewish households live on less than $32,000 per annum”). Now I don’t have comparable figures for Australian Muslims but I would venture to say their average income would be below $39,000 dollars.

So as an egalitarian Australian (hopefully there are a few of us still around) I am having difficulty with the notion that we can agree that “we should not segregate school children by race, religion or other criteria” but accept it when it happens in the private sector without regard to the capacity of a particular ethnic/religious group to finance their particular brand of segregation. It is a notion you appear to support when you wrote “France gives no state subsidies to Catholic schools so your example is not relevant.”

Cont…
Posted by csteele, Thursday, 4 June 2009 1:28:57 PM
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Cont…

You also said “If parents want to send their children to such schools it should be their right. However, they or their religious community should pay for it” but isn’t it a role of government to correct some of these imbalances for more just outcomes?

So, while I want to bite my tongue when saying it, if we accept a right for religious/ethnic communities to send their children to what they deem to be appropriate schools, perhaps there is place for government support where needed particularly for the most disadvantaged. The alternative is to require all children to attend government schools.

I realise I have argued this rather clumsily but for me this has been a case of, on reflection, potentially modifying a view similar to your own that I had held for a long time.
Posted by csteele, Thursday, 4 June 2009 1:30:31 PM
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Dear csteele,

I agree that the state should make up some inequities due to income disparity. However, I think all disparities either cannot be compensated for or should not be compensated for. One disparity is that of health care. However, the disparity in health care cannot be ended by money alone. It is partially a matter of culture. Some groups are uncomfortable about having their women either work as doctors or examined by male doctors. I had a Chinese friend, a well-educated man with a PhD in engineering. When I told him I had two daughters-in-law who were doctors he was shocked. "You mean their husbands actually allow them to examine men?" I don't know how prevalent that attitude is among the Chinese community, but it certainly is an obstacle toward getting health care. Should it be the role of government to examine how prevalent that attitude is in Chinese males and take steps to change it so Chinese women have more of a chance to both give and receive health care? However, I think it should be government's role to try to eliminate disparities in health care to a degree that it is reasonably possible.

I feel our disagreement may be one of degree and not kind. People with lots of money can go on fancier vacations than people with less money. You possibly would agree that it should not be government's role to see that all Australians who would like to spend an occasional weekend in Paris have the opportunity to do so.

In the area of education I have had a Jewish education. However, I grew up in the United States and went to US public schools. My Jewish education was obtained after school hours and not subsidised by public funds. It has also been furthered by my reading and voluntary participation in institutions devoted to that purpose as an adult. We disagree as did my father and his younger brother. My uncle wanted to establish a Jewish day school in Syracuse, NY, and my father opposed him as he was against segregating children by religion.

continued
Posted by david f, Friday, 5 June 2009 4:12:34 AM
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continued

I do not think that the sole reason for religious schools is to maintain the faith or culture of the group setting them up. Segregation of children from other children of different ethnic backgrounds lessens the possibility of intermarriage, continues patterns of social dominance and promotes other social goals having nothing to do with education. After the US Supreme Court's decision to eliminate racial segregation in US public schools many private religious schools were set up mainly in the southeastern United States. Their purpose was not to preserve their religion. Blacks in the same region mostly had the same religion. The purpose of these schools was to preserve the social isolation in a society where it was no longer legal to segregate public facilities.

The US Supreme Court in its ruling declared that the previous doctrine of "separate but equal" educational facilities would no longer be valid because separate facilities could not be equal. Black children were harmed by insulation from the white social power structure in going to separate schools from the children of those who made decisions for the community. Being cut off from a part of their community and not getting a chance to know black people in other but a subservient relationship harmed white children.

Actually, I would prefer to see all children go to public schools. However, I also am wary of the power of the state that could force such an outcome. I agree that there is an inequity due to wealth in that groups with greater income can send their children to non-public schools. However, there is also an inequity in the existence of non-public schools. In Australia graduates of non-public schools have a better chance of getting a university education. Subsidies of non-public schools as is in effect in Australia increases that inequity.

My opinion is that there is an inequity in having a private school system, and there is an inequity in eliminating the private school system. Eliminating subsidies to private schools and applying that money to the public school system lessen the unfairness.
Posted by david f, Friday, 5 June 2009 4:17:17 AM
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Dear davidf,

This is a subject dear to my heart. On another posting I put the case for proportional allocation of government funded university places to each of the three sectors, public, independent and catholic. The link is here…

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2770&page=0#62584

I would be quite interested to hear your thoughts.

Although no one has raised it the main problem I have with my own proposal was the history of allocations, for instance those of the Jews in American Universities.

From Norman Cantor’s - The Sacred Chain A History of the Jews.

In the 1920s “The New York public school system did more than anything to provide assimilation and social mobility of the younger generation. The WASP and Irish teachers did not fail the Jews” but at the NY University “Jewish quota was a rigid fifteen percent”. Princeton was three percent, Harvard 15% and Columbia 25%.

However “By the mid-1970s about a third of the faculty in the humanities and social science departments of the top twenty-five universities were Jewish. Forty percent of the entering class at Yale Law School in 1974 was Jewish. A quarter of the undergraduate body of Harvard College by 1970 was Jewish, and forty percent at Columbia College.”

All this while making up less than 2% of the population.

Probably a more modern example would be that of the Chinese in Malaysia where quotas are used to limit their access to government university places. Again ethnicity is the deciding factor. Dr. Shafie Salleh
Declared in 2004 "As the Higher Education Minister, I will ensure the quota of Malay students' entry into universities is always higher" and only 2% of Chinese students attend government schools.

So I recognise the need to be circumspect when putting forward my arguments for proportional allocation but it is something I feel very strongly about. It would be far better if it was not needed although the arguments for the societal benefits of the public education system extending well beyond ENTER scores appear to be falling on deaf ears.

Speaking of quotas I believe I have reached mine.
Posted by csteele, Friday, 5 June 2009 11:53:58 PM
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" ... If parents want to send their children to such schools it should be their right. ... "

Couldn't disagree more. Children too should have comprehensive rights which should extend to not being indoctrinated, i.m.o.
Posted by DreamOn, Saturday, 6 June 2009 1:33:37 PM
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csteele wrote:

In the 1920s “The New York public school system did more than anything to provide assimilation and social mobility of the younger generation. The WASP and Irish teachers did not fail the Jews” but at the NY University “Jewish quota was a rigid fifteen percent”. Princeton was three percent, Harvard 15% and Columbia 25%.

However “By the mid-1970s about a third of the faculty in the humanities and social science departments of the top twenty-five universities were Jewish. Forty percent of the entering class at Yale Law School in 1974 was Jewish. A quarter of the undergraduate body of Harvard College by 1970 was Jewish, and forty percent at Columbia College.”

All this while making up less than 2% of the population.

Probably a more modern example would be that of the Chinese in Malaysia where quotas are used to limit their access to government university places. Again ethnicity is the deciding factor. Dr. Shafie Salleh
Declared in 2004 "As the Higher Education Minister, I will ensure the quota of Malay students' entry into universities is always higher" and only 2% of Chinese students attend government schools.

So I recognise the need to be circumspect when putting forward my arguments for proportional allocation but it is something I feel very strongly about. It would be far better if it was not needed although the arguments for the societal benefits of the public education system extending well beyond ENTER scores appear to be falling on deaf ears.

Dear csteele,

Neither Jews nor Chinese attained their position by chicanery. Both the US and Malaysia benefitted as societies from activities of Jews and Chinese. The two cultures exalt the scholar and have a work ethic which encourages the student. Better than quotas restricting those who have the ability and desire it is a better alternative to encourage other groups to have the same respect for scholarship and work ethic that exists in Jewish and Chinese culture. Unfortunately, it often works the other way. Succeeding generations of Jews and Chinese lose these distinctive traits as they become assimilated in the surrounding society.
Posted by david f, Saturday, 6 June 2009 4:04:35 PM
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DreamOn wrote,

"Children too should have comprehensive rights which should extend to not being indoctrinated, i.m.o."

Dear DreamOn,

I would also like to see no children indoctrinated into religion. However, I think it would either create a schism between parents and children if the state were to enforce it, result in children and parents opposing a tyrannical state or having spirits crushed by state oppression. Although I am an atheist I consider those alternatives worse than allowing the state to prevent indoctrination of religion. It has been tried in the USSR, Albania, China and other places with lamentable results. Religion seems to thrive under persecution. It is a better alternative to teach comparative religion, to allow the free exercise of religion and encourage interfaith activities.
Posted by david f, Saturday, 6 June 2009 4:07:24 PM
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One has to wonder whether the indoctrination that children undergo in state schools viz a viz homosexuality, transgenderism, reconciliation, multiculturalism, diversity, etc, isn't more insidious than other ideologies which have more traditionally religious trappings.
At least they admit to being religious.
Posted by KMB, Saturday, 6 June 2009 11:28:17 PM
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Dear davidf,

I feel I am imposing on your good grace to continue this line of argument much further.

I would at some stage like to raise as a topic an exploration of why the Jewish people are so over represented in the ranks of the intelligentsia although I have been wary about doing it in an open discussion forum. Norman Cantor would have us believe it is in the genes while you seem to imply it is because of the culture.

However for the record I certainly don’t think Chinese or Jewish students have engaged in any sort of chicanery to obtain their positions.

When you said “The two cultures exalt the scholar and have a work ethic which encourages the student.” I wondered at the idea that one could separate the Jewish culture and religion. You seem to celebrate the first but disparage the second. Is one “indoctrinated” into a culture?

That western society has benefited from the activities of the Jews is inarguable, one only has to look at the proportion of Nobel Prize winners who are Jewish to understand that.

By acknowledging the fruits of that culture for the rest of us and recognising the vital role religion plays in the equation, perhaps our society should be wary of diluting the successes they enable and work instead to maintain those religious/cultural schools that bear these fruits.

Why would we even countenance such a move unless we felt that, as you appear to do, that there is something more valuable to be gained in an inclusive, universal education system.

By acknowledging that “In Australia graduates of non-public schools have a better chance of getting a university education. Subsidies of non-public schools as is in effect in Australia increases that inequity.” you identify one huge benefit which is equality.

Cont...
Posted by csteele, Sunday, 7 June 2009 12:11:32 AM
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...Cont

Unless we are prepared to divorce the very formative school years from cultural imprinting occurring within a developing student are not we trying to impose a monoculturalism instead of our avowed multiculturalism?

Not that I have a problem with that since as KMB states acceptance of homosexuality, transgender, reconciliation, multiculturalism, and diversity are part of our public sector makeup, marking us in my opinion as a progressive egalitarian society. The experience of that diversity by a majority of us in a strong public educational system has to this date undoubtedly been an enabling factor.

If we feel that this is worth protecting and enhancing then a massive shift a funding away from the private and back to the public sector has to be our mantra. Continuing to grow and enhance a strong ‘Australian’ ethic is a far stronger argument in my opinion than decrying the evils of religious or moneyed private schools as a reason to withdraw funding.

More I could say but am about to loose my computer for the night.
Posted by csteele, Sunday, 7 June 2009 12:15:35 AM
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Dear csteele,

You wrote: "I feel I am imposing on your good grace to continue this line of argument much further."

You state your points in a civil manner, cite facts to support your position, seem a person of good will and it is a matter on which we have strong and divergent feelings so we should continue the discussion.

I think there is both a genetic component and a cultural component to Jewish success in various fields. I believe the genetic component is due to two factors. One is antisemitism and the other is religion. Antisemitism has acted to promote natural selection. With pogroms, massacres, ghettoes and other activities against Jews brighter and stronger Jews had a better chance of survival. Jews have a greater disposition to diabetes than most other peoples. In a large part of our history most Jews did not have diets rich in sweets. Many of us still can't handle rich food. There is a mediaeval Christian story of devotion. A man was seen juggling balls in front of a statue of a virgin in a cathedral. He said that he wished to show his devotion to the virgin, and, as he was unlettered, this was the way he found to do it. That is profoundly non-Jewish. The normative Jewish idea in times past is that one shows devotion to God by learning. Maimonides, the Jewish state, said one worships God by using the divine mind he gave us to answer questions. For many years Catholic Europe has been taking their best and brightest young men into the priesthood. There they were expected to live a celibate life, and most of them did that. Their genes were removed from the Christian gene pool. In contrast the brightest and best of Jewish young men were encouraged to marry young, reproduce and were supported in a life of study.

Of course religion is part of culture, and I, by no means, mean to deny that. However, I don't believe it is a necessary part of culture.

continued
Posted by david f, Sunday, 7 June 2009 10:35:20 AM
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continued

You wrote: "I wondered at the idea that one could separate the Jewish culture and religion. You seem to celebrate the first but disparage the second. Is one “indoctrinated” into a culture?"

Religion in the past contributed to our formation as a people and our high regard for the life of the intellect. However, we are living in the present, and I believe that religion no longer serves the purposes that it served in the past. From the net:

"Haskalah (Hebrew: "enlightenment," "education" from sekhel "intellect", "mind"), the Jewish Enlightenment, was a movement among European Jews in the late 18th century that advocated adopting enlightenment values, pressing for better integration into European society, and increasing education in secular studies, Hebrew, and Jewish history. Haskalah in this sense marked the beginning of the wider engagement of European Jews with the secular world, ultimately resulting in the first Jewish political movements and the struggle for Jewish emancipation. The division of Ashkenazi Jewry into religious movements or denominations, especially in North America and anglophone countries, began historically as a reaction to Haskalah." End extract.

Present Jewish schools are in part a reaction to Haskalah. Some go against the ideas of integration into modern society and are a retreat into obscurantism. Some who promote Jewish religious schools are for the most part concerned with keeping Jewish children distinct from other children to lessen the chances for intermarriage and keep Jews as a separate group. The promotion of learning and scholarship, while still there, are not the prime considerations.

Although Jews have been moulded by the past our Nobel prize winners and scholars are those who have questioned that past and separated from it. Our prime example of Jewish intellect is Albert Einstein.

Although he was not conventionally religious he had the same attitude toward questioning that Maimonides had.

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school."

"The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing."
Posted by david f, Sunday, 7 June 2009 10:38:37 AM
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it is heartening to see the boasting of the supiriour races[yes semites respect learning as an act of service to god[but semites include arabs]a point repeatedly avoided

its is well to know that the intelligent are required to breed young[hence we see in the tamud priest[sorry rabbies/teachers mating with children]

from
http://www.biblestudysite.com/factsarefacts.htm
I apologize..for the'language'which will appear'here-UNDER'

from The official unabridged..Soncino'Edition of the'Talmud'..published in 1935..quotations with footnotes from the Soncino Edition of the Talmud,(Book)

YEBAMOTH,60b."As R.Joshua,b.Levi related:`There was a certain town in the Land of Israel the legitimacy of whose inhabitants disputed,and Rabbi sent R.Ramanos who conducted an inquiry and..found in it the daughter of a'proselyte'....*who was under the age of three years..!and one day..,and Rabbi declared her eligible to live with a priest"

note..A proselyte under the age of three years and one day may be married by a priest...And was married to a priest.ie.,permitted to continue to live with her...'husband'!

SANHEDRIN,55b-55a...:"What is meant by this?..Rab said:Pederasty with a child below nine years of age..is not deemed as pederasty..with a child above that.

Samuel said:Pederasty with a child below three years is not treated as with a child above that.....55a)(he)who commits bestiality,whether naturally or unnaturally:...or a woman who causes herself to be beastially abused,....whether naturally or unnaturally,is liable to punishment."

(footnotes)"(1)The reference is to..the passive..'subject'/victim..of sodomy...As stated in supra[54a,guilt is incurred by the active participant even if the former be a minor;..i.e.,less than thirteen years old...

2)Rab makes nine years the minimum;..but if one committed sodomy with a child of lesser age,...no guilt is incurred..!...Samuel makes three the minimum...(There are thus three distinct clauses in this Baraitha.

why single out pederasty:..in all crimes of incest,..the'passive'adult does not incur'guilt'..unless the other'party'is at least nine years and a day?

Hence the Baraitha supports Rab's'contention'that nine years(and a day)is the minimum age of the...passive partner..for the adult to be liable."..

In'official-statement'made by Rabbi Morris N.Kertzer..that the Talmud"IS THE LEGAL CODE...WHICH FORMS THE BASIS OF JEWISH RELIGIOUS LAW..AND IT IS THE TEXTBOOK USED IN THE TRAINING OF RABBIS"...

we wont talk how education has been deliberatly..dumbed down for the gentiles..
http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/
Posted by one under god, Sunday, 7 June 2009 11:35:33 AM
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Tourette Syndrome : "was once considered a rare and bizarre syndrome, most often associated with the exclamation of obscene words or socially inappropriate and derogatory remarks" now to be found on online forums.

Sigh
Posted by csteele, Sunday, 7 June 2009 4:18:38 PM
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csteele wrote:

"Unless we are prepared to divorce the very formative school years from cultural imprinting occurring within a developing student are not we trying to impose a monoculturalism instead of our avowed multiculturalism?"

We differ on the definition of multiculturalism. I attended the Abrahamic Faiths Forum. It was a meeting of representatives of the Muslim, Christian and Jewish communities sponsored by the Queensland government. The president of the Independent Schools Association that is primarily religious chaired one session. I asked what programs there were to encourage contact between the students of one belief system and students with other belief systems. He told me there were none. Neither were there courses in comparative religion as far as he knew. I do not see isolated monocultures as making up a multicultural society. Multiculturalism to me means more than being imprinted with the cultural values of your subgroup. If it were, Jews in a ghetto surrounded by a Christian world could be cited as an example of multiculturalism.

Multiculturalism means to me that people have enough knowledge and appreciation for cultures other than their own to regard those outside their culture as human. Family, religious institutions and voluntary organisations imprint cultural values. If, in addition, we segregate children from the wider community in separate schools the isolation is almost complete. We have a patchwork of monocultures not multiculturalism.

The public schools cannot impose a monoculture since students and teachers usually have varied cultural backgrounds. That may not be the case in religious schools.

I acquired my Jewish culture while going to be public schools for my entire primary and secondary education. Jewish education was outside of school hours. Going to schools where the rest of the student body was mainly Christian was a good experience. I am aware of that world and its humanity. Isn’t that also valid for the Muslim community?

Jewish and Muslim children growing up in Australia are going to live in a society that is mainly non-Muslim and non-Jewish. Even if they grow up to be imams or rabbis they will have to deal with the wider community.
Posted by david f, Sunday, 7 June 2009 4:41:32 PM
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i am often glad when i can agree with an intelect such as david[but reserve my rights to disagree as well]...anyhow i would use different words and definitions[but blame that on my own multiculturalism]

the word has become a buzzword...david reveals he literally is a multi-cullture-ist[as am i..mine is dutch/english]...i think the strength often missed is true multi-culturism...means living across two[or more cultures..often simultainiously]

it has long been known that a second language is often able to raise the intelectual capacity..of those cursed by multicultural roots..[i would suggest the yiddish/english capable mind..to equal the chinese/english ,mind...in the educative creation..of extra neuron connections physiclly via the extra stimulation of the interlect required by multi lingual concourse

that while yiddish/arab/chinese/dutch/french..[or any other language..broadens the ability of the mind to reason,..it also has its cultural side-affects..for better or worse

with the jewish side affect clearly the mindset is towards logic/law/medicine/govt etc...im not educated enough to inform the affects of the picturesque chinese lingual/character affects on intellect..but advantage in logic/reasoning/comes to mind

anyhow there is also certain rational needed..to comprehend the inherant hate..we multiculturists regularilly recieve..[yet another thing we multiculturists have in common...

anyhow there would be many more neural connections..i would note..[not to the least of which..that of early..[sexual]awakening...but have dwelled enough on that aspect..at this time to have made that point clear in previous postings
Posted by one under god, Sunday, 7 June 2009 5:21:15 PM
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Dear csteele,

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/07/opinion/07kristof.html?ref=opinion&pagewanted=print contains an article titled "Rising Above I.Q."

From the article:

"In the mosaic of America, three groups that have been unusually successful are Asian-Americans, Jews and West Indian blacks — and in that there may be some lessons for the rest of us.

Asian-Americans are renowned — or notorious — for ruining grade curves in schools across the land, and as a result they constitute about 20 percent of students at Harvard College.

As for Jews, they have received about one-third of all Nobel Prizes in science received by Americans. One survey found that a quarter of Jewish adults in the United States have earned a graduate degree, compared with 6 percent of the population as a whole.

West Indian blacks, those like Colin Powell whose roots are in the Caribbean, are one-third more likely to graduate from college than African-Americans as a whole, and their median household income is almost one-third higher.

These three groups may help debunk the myth of success as a simple product of intrinsic intellect, for they represent three different races and histories. In the debate over nature and nurture, they suggest the importance of improved nurture — which, from a public policy perspective, means a focus on education. Their success may also offer some lessons for you, me, our children — and for the broader effort to chip away at poverty in this country.

Richard Nisbett cites each of these groups in his superb recent book, “Intelligence and How to Get It.” Dr. Nisbett, a professor of psychology at the University of Michigan, argues that what we think of as intelligence is quite malleable and owes little or nothing to genetics."

Read the rest to see why Nisbett thinks it has little to do with genetics.
Posted by david f, Sunday, 7 June 2009 6:25:06 PM
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" ... states acceptance of homosexuality, transgender, reconciliation, multiculturalism, and diversity ... "

Ah yes, such sentiments warm the cockles of my heart. As I have been reading, my (step) daughter (8yrs) has just brought me a well proportioned, multicouloured drawing of a house. This is pleasing to me. We do a lot of home schooling incidentally.

..

NEWSFLASH:

The case of the abused "princess" is still running hot, day after day, hour after hour here on Indo TV. Medical forensik reports are in, and alleged scars from being beaten up prior to being allegedly raped have been shown on TV. In the immediate aftermath of her escape, there were several incursions of malaysian warships into indonesian waters.

ALJAZHEERA:

Alleges Netan the Yahoo is persecuting Jewish conscientious objectors on grounds of inciting troops to defect at times of war.

They reply that Jewish troops are being trained only to think in terms of, attacking, destroying and killing "targets," and that this goes to dehumanise the Palestinians.

..

:-(

AUSTRALIA:

Green Browny has become infested with wig parasites to the tune of $AU240,000 approx. May he find in his supporters a fortified tower in the face of his detractors.
Posted by DreamOn, Tuesday, 9 June 2009 2:56:39 PM
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Dear Iftikar,

I am not sure which school or schooling system you refer to but I your topic compelled me to write about an opposite experience in Australia.

After living overseas for a while and during 2003,our daughter had to go to a public school.
I was impressed with how much care and attention she was given to fit back in the schooling system and the level of commitment from that Sydney south public school.

In all fairness, my only experience with lack of commitment was coming from her Arabic and Islamic studies teachers to the limit my wife and I had to help her with home tutoring.

Peace,
Posted by Fellow_Human, Tuesday, 9 June 2009 5:59:42 PM
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Dear davidf,

I apologise about my tardiness in replying to your expansive posts. Frustratingly I have only been able to read them via my mobile as I have been away from normal internet access.

I struggle with a genetic explanation for Jewish success. I will be the first to admit being uncomfortable with it as a notion because of what it implies. Some of the studies showing Jews and East Asians with IQ averages at 106-107 also place the Australian Aborigines with IQ averages at 62. Having met numerous members of the ‘Stolen Generation’, those of aboriginal descent who had been raised with white families, genetic conclusions from those figures are patently absurd.

Might I also question pogroms etc as genetic drivers. From my reading for many centuries the cycle of violence seemed to follow a fairly standard path. Jews, often having been denied other means of earning money were permitted to engage in usury, a practice forbidden by the Church for Christians. When debts became untenable to the populace, particularly the aristocracy, pogroms were instigated primarily to remove the creditors. One would assume the creditors were from the upper levels of the Jewish communities.

Another example was the Stalinist purges against the Jewish so called ‘Old Bolsheviks‘ who held high positions of power in the government and the Jewish literary and theatrical cream during the 1930s.

From Norman Cantor; “These two groups were physically eliminated and members of their families shot or sent to slave labour camps in Siberia. The best of the Jewish political and literary elite of the Soviet Union and their families and friends were suddenly removed from the Russian scene where they had loomed large since the Russian revolution.”. Cantor quotes a figure of around 200,000 Jews being eliminated.

Targeting the elite would have skewed the IQ profile the other way.

I like your idea that Catholic celibacy removed the genes of the best and brightest from the pool but this only holds if it was kept it their cassocks so to speak and there is ample evidence this was not the norm.

Cont
Posted by csteele, Thursday, 11 June 2009 10:27:23 PM
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Cont

The recent SBS program on the Inquisition taken from the trial transcripts in one small town in Spain revealed a philandering priest with a startling appetite for sexual conquest that went basically unchallenged.

You wrote “I believe that religion no longer serves the purposes that it served in the past.” and I would agree but the intertwining of religion and culture must give a Jewish sense of community that is extraordinarily powerful. Even those who may have forgone a more orthodox religious observance the Jewish secular religion of Zionism surely continues that tradition.

There seems to be an historical trend of removal from tight rabbinical control appearing to take the shackles off the Jewish life and allowing intellectual ‘flowering‘. It happened in Spain and again with the great migrations from the Pale. I will read more about the Haskalah to see what was in play there. Your other forum offerings on Jesus have been shall we say less than complimentary but in a very real sense this was exactly what he was attempting. Forgetting about his deification, and taking the Gospel of Mark as the earliest and most Jewish representation of his life (notably without the virgin birth narrative nor ascent to heaven expounded in other gospels), perhaps this is a case of a very Jewish man recognising the potential of the unfettered Jewish life?

A period till the 1870s was a very promising time for European Jews who benefited from some dramatic liberalisations of many countries. I am aware of many of the factors that contributed to its decline but pertinent to this discussion is what happened in France during the turn of the century.

“Jews vehemently supported political efforts to divest the church of its old dominance in education and its privilege of state support for its schools.” (N.C.)

This battle between Catholics and the secularists over education produced some strong and vocal anti-Semitic groups like Action Francaise in the 1930s some of which was transported to Canada ultimately causing that country to refuse to admit any Jewish refugees in the 1930s and 40s.

Cont
Posted by csteele, Thursday, 11 June 2009 10:31:37 PM
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Cont

This was also played out in America where “the civil libertarians, supported by the American Jewish Congress and the majority of the Jewish communal leadership, argued for a much more radical interpretation” of the First Amendment contending that it “prohibited any kind of state funding of the operations of religious groups, such as parochial schools.”

To think that arguments over education had such profound implications for the Jewish people.

In 1930 a strict quota limited Jewish representation in senior tenured positions at Berlin University to less than 10% but over half of the junior nontenured positions were taken by Jews. I found this statistic startling when I first read it. As Berlin was part of the Protestant north as opposed to the Catholic south it may be somewhat understandable but it does go to show that anti-semiticism does wax and wane.

To the question of mono/multi culturalism; if my contention that the culture/religion/s of the Jewish people rather than an innate intelligence is the reason for their over representation in the higher fields is valid, then should society consider these things of such value that they be afforded some protection, even if it means allowing segregated schooling in those formative years? Perhaps compulsory comparative religious studies and interaction with students of other belief systems might be mandated to ensure students “have enough knowledge and appreciation for cultures other than their own to regard those outside their culture as human”. On the other hand if it is genetic factors that are responsible then there are few reasons for supporting continued segregation.

The elephant in the room is of course the role of wealth in obtaining superior educational outcomes. The greater aggregate wealth of the Jewish community allowing far greater access to private schooling as supported by the figures and thus as acknowledged by yourself giving an overrepresentation in securing university places probably needs to be recognised.

Norman Cantor would have it that I, in calling for proportional allocations by sector for publicly funded Australian university places, are in effect restricting “Jewish entry through prejudicial affirmative action”. Agreed?
Posted by csteele, Thursday, 11 June 2009 10:38:56 PM
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Dear csteele,

You wrote:

"The elephant in the room is of course the role of wealth in obtaining superior educational outcomes. The greater aggregate wealth of the Jewish community allowing far greater access to private schooling as supported by the figures and thus as acknowledged by yourself giving an overrepresentation in securing university places probably needs to be recognised."

That contradicts your previous post:

"In the 1920s “The New York public school system did more than anything to provide assimilation and social mobility of the younger generation. The WASP and Irish teachers did not fail the Jews” but at the NY University “Jewish quota was a rigid fifteen percent”. Princeton was three percent, Harvard 15% and Columbia 25%.

However “By the mid-1970s about a third of the faculty in the humanities and social science departments of the top twenty-five universities were Jewish. Forty percent of the entering class at Yale Law School in 1974 was Jewish. A quarter of the undergraduate body of Harvard College by 1970 was Jewish, and forty percent at Columbia College.”"

What you wrote previously was correct. The Jewish success was obtained through their education in the public schools from the excellent WASP and Irish teachers. Due to that success they made more money. With more money some set up private Jewish schools in imitation of the gentiles who have set up elite schools funded by their religious groups.

I stated that students in private schools in Australia have a better chance of entering university. I don't have the statistics, but I think that the situation is just opposite for Jews. The reason it is just the opposite for Jews is that the more observant and/or religious Jews are more likely to set up a Jewish school and/or send their children there. The primary purpose in those schools is to lessen the chances for intermarriage or assimilation.

The less religious prefer to send their children to public schools. I think Jewish success in the arts, sciences, literature and intellectual life in general is more likely among the less religious.
Posted by david f, Friday, 12 June 2009 3:53:21 PM
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Dear davidf,

At least in Victoria I would feel you may be in error when you said “I stated that students in private schools in Australia have a better chance of entering university. I don't have the statistics, but I think that the situation is just opposite for Jews.”

May I offer some statistics.

Jewish private schools make up 5 of the top ten schools in the state for median VCE scores and scores of 40 plus.

http://bettereducation.com.au/Results/VCE2008Results.aspx

And as I had written earlier;

In Victoria “a significant majority of Jewish students, estimated at 77 per cent, attend non-government schools, with 62 per cent attending Jewish day schools.”
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-34105173_ITM

Therefore I don’t believe I was being contradictory in my statements because not only were they referring to different eras but were truths in and of themselves.

If we are acknowledging that private schools produce better university entrance results, and the majority of Jewish students go to well funded private schools, then to say this would be a negative factor only for Jewish students probably needs greater explanation from you.

I was not denying an innate ability on behalf of the students but pointing out that their achievements, it must be recognised, are assisted by the private school system.

Probably what we would need to resolve this more fully is statistics on Jewish performance in state schools corrected for SES figures compared to those in private institutions but from what I have read I would still stand by my statements.

I think most people feel that if their children are beaten to a university place when all things have been equal then so be it. However in the case of private school access to publicly funded university places there is growing disquiet.

I personally would like to see far more higher SES students in our state schools because I feel that the parents have a greater capacity for lobbying for better teaching/funding etc and it would be foolish not to acknowledge the great historical role Jewish people have played in recognising and acting upon inequities.
Posted by csteele, Saturday, 13 June 2009 2:33:09 PM
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Dear csteele,

If going to an elite private school increases chances for admission to university in all cases it seems irrelevant whether the private school is sponsored by Jewish, C of E, Lutheran or any other group. It is unfair. The unfairness is exacerbated by government support for these schools. It is not politically feasible nor do I think justified to eliminate those schools although my preference would be to eliminate those schools. Religious training can be done outside of school hours. Mathematics, science, languages and probably most other school subjects need have nothing to do with religion, and I don't see any need to segregate by religion students who are learning those subjects.

I think the function of elementary and secondary education should be to:

1. Equip students with sufficient background to make a living or get additional training for that purpose.

2. Give students an appreciation of learning and the arts and sciences so their lives will be full.

3. Socialise students to live in Australian society as adults.

4. Encourage students to think independently and question.

Segregating students by religion can be most antithetical for the last two functions. In that regard private schools do a disservice to Australia.

I recommend completely ending funding for non-public schools and giving sufficient support for public schools so that there is no gap in student's performance between the two systems. I am certain some of the children sent to private schools are only there because their parents think they get a better education there than in the public schools. Those parents are correct in most cases, I think the difference can be remedied by devoting more resources to the public schools.
Posted by david f, Saturday, 13 June 2009 3:57:44 PM
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Dear davidf,

Fairness trumping achievement! I agree but you need to be careful because them's seditious thoughts my friend.
Posted by csteele, Saturday, 13 June 2009 4:52:00 PM
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Dear csteele,

Please explain how I have fairness trumping achievement. With adequate funding of the public schools there will be both greater fairness and greater achievement.
Posted by david f, Saturday, 13 June 2009 5:42:41 PM
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davidf,
From your four points I would take it that you see no purpose for a whole of world view other than mere survival; as you state. 1. "Equip students with sufficient background to make a living or get additional training". Life has more meaning than the 40 hours work contribution.

2. "Give students an appreciation of learning and the arts and sciences so their lives will be full". Religion is based in the arts, in asthetic appreciation of the seen and imagined, in song and music, graphics and acting.

3. Socialise students to live in Australian society as adults. From my obsevation and experience with children over 70 years the Church does the best job of making responsible citizens as the basis of Christianity is charity and giving selflessly.

4. "Encourage students to think independently and question". The benifits of cultural changes to Western society has come from religious people who have done just that.

Religious schools in Australia do not segregate and accomodate students of all faiths. In that regard private schools do a disservice to Australia.
Could you please identify how private schools do a disservice to Australia?

In case you hadn't noticed private school parents contribute heavily to their children's education and take the burden of these children's education off the State. It costs my daughter $8,000 each year to send my grandson to a private school. I suggest you begin to advocate all taxpayers increase their contributions to ecucate State student. Remember parents of Private schools are also taxpayers, they could have exemption from increased taxes equilavent to their fees contribution.
Posted by Philo, Saturday, 13 June 2009 5:51:10 PM
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4. "Encourage students to think independently and question". The benifits of cultural changes to Western society has come from religious people who have done just that.

Dear Philo,

That is a great distortion of history. In general Christianity has discouraged questioning. Galileo, Darwin and other great thinkers have met opposition from religious authorities. After 400 years the Vatican has agreed that Galileo might have some good points. The dead hand of various branches of Christianity has been an impediment to progress in science and the arts.

The Inquisition and creationism are two of the many obstacles that Christianity has set up to reason and behaving with humanity.

Please cite Christians who have encouraged independent thinking and questioning. There are some like Bishop Spong, but they are mighty thin on the ground.
Posted by david f, Saturday, 13 June 2009 6:14:31 PM
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davidf,
The very fact that these people were within a religion originally and challenged traditional thinking or practise did not deter their critical thought. Read up on people like Jesus Christ, Martin Luther, Wilberforce, Luther King, etc the list is endless. True religion is about a search for meaning and truth and not thoughtlessly parroting off others ideas.

I am not into inquisition practises or six day creationism, so try to be honest about where faith is today. It seems you are parroting off others regurgitated objections without genuine research.
Posted by Philo, Saturday, 13 June 2009 10:14:02 PM
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Dear davidf,

You wrote “Please explain how I have fairness trumping achievement. With adequate funding of the public schools there will be both greater fairness and greater achievement.”

but had said previously;
“I recommend completely ending funding for non-public schools and giving sufficient support for public schools so that there is no gap in student's performance between the two systems.”

Simple question if I may. Would the stripping of government funds to private schools have any effect on the marks students at those schools will be capable of achieving?

I suppose I could allow your argument on Utilitarian grounds i.e. taking funds from private schools and spreading it through the state system would probably raise the achievement levels of that sector thus raising the average greater than the probable drop from a funding deprived private sector.

If the fruits to our society come disproportionally from private schools then shouldn’t they be given a disproportionally greater amount of funding? An example might be the argument for the Victorian Philharmonic Orchestra receiving generous government support.

Possibly it comes down to ones definition of achievement. Are the achievements of a society to be measured on the collective or on the peaks reached by its most talented?

I should say I am actually in furious agreement with you about funding but we seem to differ about why we should do it. I see fairness in a society as a great achievement of itself, one to be continually striven for and to be able to recognise and be comfortable with what we need to do to attain it I feel is essential.
Posted by csteele, Sunday, 14 June 2009 12:52:58 AM
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Dear Philo,

I’m wondering why your daughter sent your grandson to an $8000 per annum private school?

Was the reason to access a government subsidised university place for him?
Posted by csteele, Sunday, 14 June 2009 12:59:37 AM
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My daughter sends her son to a private school because his mates will be respected leaders of community and business in the future and she wants him to have them among his friends when he leaves school. His achievements intellectually are among the top 5% in the country according to national tests.

I have no doubt he will graduate from university with distinctions because of his natural apptidudes to think critically and analise situations. He is currently doing his confrmation of faith. He is very social and perceptive of other's needs so will make good in those fields.
Posted by Philo, Sunday, 14 June 2009 8:05:06 AM
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Dear Philo,

You really did not answer my question. I asked you, “Please cite Christians who have encouraged independent thinking and questioning.”

You named Jesus Christ, Martin Luther, Wilberforce and Luther King. I assume by Luther King you mean Martin Luther King jr.

Although they themselves questioned the existing system none of them encouraged others to question. The gospels were written years after the death of Jesus so we don’t know how accurate they are. However, they do not show Jesus as encouraging independent thinking and questioning. In fact he did exactly the opposite. John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” It doesn’t matter how good a life you have led. It doesn’t matter what you think. Unless you accept my brand of mumbojumbo you are dead meat.

Bishop Spong refers to the above passage thus:

“This text has helped to create a world where adherents of one religion feel compelled to kill adherents of another. A veritable renaissance of religious terror now confronts us and is making against us the claims we have long made against religious traditions different from our own.”

I have read the Bible and saw no place where independent thinking and questioning were encouraged in either testament.

Martin Luther was an intolerant bigot. He supported the princes in the Germany of his time in suppressing the peasant’s revolt. He believed that the peasants should accept the religion of their ruler. When Jews did not accept his new rreligion he violently condemned them. His sermons were quoted verbatim in the Nazi papers to arouse feeling against Jews.

William Wilberforce and Martin Luther King Jr. in my opinion did much good. However, neither of them encouraged independent thinking and questioning.”

I ask again: Please cite Christians who have encouraged independent thinking and questioning.
Posted by david f, Sunday, 14 June 2009 11:22:03 AM
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davidf'
Obviously you read things in your influenced world of current Western thought. Read them in their historical context and the social changes that occurred as a result of their ideas and life. Obviously you do not think critically and contextually.
Posted by Philo, Sunday, 14 June 2009 4:26:57 PM
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Dear csteele,

You wrote: “If the fruits to our society come disproportionally from private schools then shouldn’t they be given a disproportionally greater amount of funding? An example might be the argument for the Victorian Philharmonic Orchestra receiving generous government support.”

I think here you are begging the question. I think the fruits to our society come disproportionally from private schools precisely because they get greater funding and not through any inherent value in private schools. I have no reason to think that a private school would produce any better results than a public school that got equal funding.

Support for the Victorian Philharmonic Orchestra is another unrelated issue.

Dear Philo,

Sure, I am influenced by the current world of western thought and appreciate the scientific method that encourages me to think critically. Unfortunately the big monotheistic religions such as Christianity and Islam discourage critical thinking. Christianity emphasizes faith whereas the seeking of knowledge requires doubt and questioning. Islam means submission. Just accept what you are told is God’s will. Some rare religious figures may encourage questioning. One religious figure is Buddha who encouraged people to question all words including his. He recognized that he was living in a particular place at a particular time and what he said might not appy in the future. The Greek myth of Prometheus encourages questioning the Gods.

Although Christianity emphasizes faith over reason some Christians encourage questioning and independent thinking. http://www.johnshelbyspong.com/ is the website of Bishop Spong who questions and encourages questioning.
Posted by david f, Sunday, 14 June 2009 5:11:25 PM
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Philo wrote;
“My daughter sends her son to a private school because his mates will be respected leaders of community and business in the future and she wants him to have them among his friends when he leaves school.”

For some reason I find this incredibly sad. Oh well each to their own.
Posted by csteele, Monday, 15 June 2009 6:41:13 PM
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Dear davidf,

You wrote; “I have read the Bible and saw no place where independent thinking and questioning were encouraged in either testament.” Well you must have skipped over such things as Job and the various parables of Jesus.

While I don’t agree with Philo that you fail to think critically and contextually I do feel there is something in the request to view things a little more historically. Certainly by the time John was written the divisions between Christians and Jews were deep. The Midrashic tradition that Spong talks about in his book ‘The Hebrew Christ’ does explain much of the shift across the Gospels and is quite illuminating.

A word of advice, having read at least five of Bishop Spong’s books there is one I wish I had refrained from and that is his autobiography. It certainly diminished my perceptions of the man despite the worthy things he has produced. My advice would be to refrain from it.

Finally you wrote “the big monotheistic religions such as Christianity and Islam”. I am partial to Bloom’s argument that the last two great monotheistic religions are the Jewish an Islamic faiths. Christianity has always had a tenuous hold on a monotheistic claim with the Trinity but with the growth of the American ’personal Jesus’ and the Holy Spirit relegating the ‘Lord God our Father’ to a background figure makes it virtually indistinguishable from other polytheistic practices, especially when you add the Virgin Mary into the mix.

Dear Philo,

A couple more questions if I may.

What do you understand of the history behind the song Amazing Grace?

And

Do you regard Quakers as Christians?
Posted by csteele, Monday, 15 June 2009 7:28:32 PM
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Dear csteele,

I thought of a place where independent thinking was encouraged in the Bible after I wrote the post. Abraham questioned God about the rightness of his destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. To question God himself is the ultimate questioning. Questioning is not a dominant trend, but it certainly exists in the Bible. I am wrong. However, in Christianity Faith is considered a virtue. I don’t think it should be. While Job is notable for giving the reader many questions as to the meaning of the book Job never seems to question but has faith. One thing that bothers me about Job was its injustice. To test Job:

JOB 1:19 And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

It is most unfair to kill Job’s sons. What had they done to merit it?

The split between Christianity and Judaism took a long time.

The Church Council of Laodicea circa 364 CE ordered that religious observances were to be conducted on Sunday, not Saturday. Francis Xavier was concerned about Sabbath worship in Goa, India in 1560 CE; he called for the Inquisition to set up an office there to stamp out what he called "Jewish wickedness". A Catholic Provincial Council suppressed the practice in Norway in 1435 CE.

The motivating force for Sunday as Sabbath appears to be to make a greater separation between Judaism and Christianity.

I agree that Christianity with its Trinity, ‘personal’ Jesus and saints is not monotheistic. Monotheism recognizes only one God with no mediaries between men and God. However, if Christians want to refer to their religion as monotheistic even though it isn’t I am not bothered by it.

I believe there were no religious wars over polytheism. One could simply add in other people’s Gods to your pantheon and emphasise which gods you preferred. Bringing back polytheism would eliminate arguments as to the identity of the ‘true’ God. The more the merrier.
Posted by david f, Monday, 15 June 2009 8:39:18 PM
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david & steel,
Job was in his early life a polytheist who worshipped the fertility Elohim (plural) at Uggarit but through the influence of Teman his cousin (them both grandsons of Abraham who concluded there is but one God). Job now a convert to monotheism when subsequently disaster struck him. His former polytheistic friends make the claim that the curses of the gods, as identified in affix of the code of Hammurabi, had fallen upon him because he had sinned by turning against them. So he was tried under Hammurabi law because of the curses that fell upon him by the polytheistic defenders of Uggarit, and former friends.

The book of Job probably originally an Edomite script is a defense of monotheism against the Chaldean polytheism, The corrupt Hebrew text used in the Christian Bible retains over 150 Edomite wirds. It has had a long history though the Septuagent, written for Greek speaking Jews has confused the later translatours by using Lord to interpret every original words for a god. The text is most probably a drama tragic retained from Babylonian Exile litrature.
Posted by Philo, Tuesday, 16 June 2009 12:30:47 PM
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david and Steel,
The trinity is a Roman spatial construct of the New Testament. They concluding there are three independent persons, rather than one unified personality (spirit) expressed in different revelations. There is but one spirit and that spirit was revealed in Jesus Christ. Jesus humanity was not God, but he revealed the spirit and character of God. Therefore Christians admire and seek to live by that same spirit, in attitude, wisdom, action etc. The values of those attitudes are eternal.
Posted by Philo, Tuesday, 16 June 2009 12:43:05 PM
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Dear davidf,

Perhaps I see too much in Job but I think it is one of the best and most questioning books of the Bible.

If the house had fallen in and Job’s sons were killed but the cause had been an earthquake what would your reaction have been? Would it have moved from considering it unjust to unfortunate?

For me Job works so well on many levels but at its most basic there is an acceptance of God as a force of nature. Capricious yes, and powerful, but his providence is not determined by the wishes of man but entirely his own.

Although Job knows there is little point in rebelling against what is happening to him he assumes the right to question whether it is just. In the questions posed to Job God (38:4-39:30) goes from creation to questions concerning inanimate nature on to those concerning animate nature.

I am lead to believe it was Jewish tradition that Job must have sinned against God in some manner to receive the treatment he did. The Holocaust changed that.

Another aspect to the story of Job is the attempt to disavow the notion that wealth, health and happiness are intrinsically connected to godliness. It was the message Job’s friends put to him as an explanation for his suffering but at the end God rebuked them all.

Jesus progressed this when he told the rich man to give all his possessions to the poor if he wanted to be granted eternal life.

Matthew 19:24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

The disciples obviously felt the rich must have found favour with God but Jesus might just have said “but with nature/fate anything can happen”

P.S. Paul participated in persecuting early Christians.
Posted by csteele, Tuesday, 16 June 2009 11:30:14 PM
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Steele, Philo & DaveO

An interesting comment re Islam being defined as submission. Yes, in my experience, on those things which cannot be substantiated by normal means, the catch cry is always:

" ... harus percaya, harus percaya ... "

(You) must believe, must believe.

..

Be Christianity mono or poly is also largely inconsequential to me, but I note that there are varying views as to what the Trinity means.

Here's a different interpretation:

"Male" as in Son, does not refer to gender, but rather that Spirit (the non-corporeal) penetrates matter.

1. The Son represents Spirit in commune or made manifest in Humanity.

2. The Holy Spirit represents that which force which "links" us consciously together. (at times)

&

3. The Father represents the totality of All, both the corporeal and the non-corporeal.

So, not 3 Gods (or 7 Elohim) but rather different manifestations of the same thing.

..

Indeed, "the more the merrier."
Posted by DreamOn, Wednesday, 17 June 2009 1:36:40 PM
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I have also several members of my family that have been involved on the teaching staff of both State and private education and on the boards of religious schools. I have been in support of private schooling having 5 children and 7 grandchildren attend private religious schools. I find that parents prefer the ethos because they practise and teach social attitudes that encourage and build children that place them well in the future.

However I have reservations about Muslim schools because they are religiously exclusive, and teach an isolationist view from society. This breeds social division and isolation rather than inclusiveism.
Posted by Philo, Wednesday, 17 June 2009 2:49:54 PM
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csteele wrote: “If the house had fallen in and Job’s sons were killed but the cause had been an earthquake what would your reaction have been? Would it have moved from considering it unjust to unfortunate?”

Dear csteele,

I regard Job as a fable. It apparently is a story invented to make a point. The point seems to be don’t question. Just assume that whatever happens to you should just be accepted with faith. I prefer Prometheus. I don’t believe in a God who would murder innocent people as a test. The God of the Bible is a nasty creation – warning Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of knowledge. It is most unfair. He knew they were going to disobey. If they hadn’t eaten of the fruit how would they know it was wrong to disobey. He demands Abraham show his faith by being willing to murder his own son. In the New Testament he subjects his own son to an agonising death. Although there may be a God I cannot believe that God is the nasty piece of work described in the Bible. My reaction is to the fable not to an actual happening. If there is a God I don’t believe he violates the laws of nature. If there is a God I don’t know what he does.

I think Paul is also a nasty piece of work. He persecuted Christians while he was a Jew. When he became a Christian he just turned his viciousness toward his former coreligionists.

Abraham was asked to commit an atrocity to prove his devotion. Paul proved his devotion by hate of the Other whatever side he was on.

One can also cherry pick passages of the Bible which exemplify decency. However, those who invented the God of the Bible invented a monster I find unworthy of worship.
Posted by david f, Wednesday, 17 June 2009 6:58:22 PM
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Dear Philo,

If we allow religious schools I think we have to allow all of them or none as long as they cover the requisite non-religious subjects.

You wrote: "However I have reservations about Muslim schools because they are religiously exclusive, and teach an isolationist view from society. This breeds social division and isolation rather than inclusiveism."

Any religious schools teaches the particular religion that sponsors them as truth. What experience have you had with Muslim schools so that you can speak with authority about what they teach and their enrollment policies? I am under the impression that fundamentalist Christian schools are religiously exclusive, and teach an isolationist view of society. Although they may accept anybody I doubt non-fundamentalist parents will send their children to such a school so they are de facto isolationist.
Posted by david f, Wednesday, 17 June 2009 7:09:35 PM
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davidf wrote;
“I regard Job as a fable. It apparently is a story invented to make a point. The point seems to be don’t question. Just assume that whatever happens to you should just be accepted with faith.”

Dear davidf,

Of course Job is a fable and an extremely powerful one at that. As Fr William Mott puts it “Is Job meant to be historical? Not likely. Just as Pope John Paul II said Genesis 1-3 was myth - not meaning fairytale, but rather an ancient story put together to bring out some things true in themselves”

I feel the tempering in the oral traditions of the ancients before it was committed to written form has produced along with Ecclesiastes some sublime contemplative literature. One sometimes wonder how books such as these made it into the bible but I am inclined to give the ‘editors’ some credit for recognising their weight despite their reactionary nature.

Could I invite you to read Job again as you would Shakespeare. Remove the last chapter from the mix as many scholars feel it is a later addition and it is probably what makes it unpalatable for you.

Some of Job’s questions are eternal; “Why do the wicked prosper and live long?” When his friends reply that the wicked will receive their comeuppance Job retorts "So how can you console me with your nonsense? Nothing is left of your answers but falsehood!"

When Eliphaz says "Submit to God and be at peace with him; in this way prosperity will come to you.” Job basically says bugger that, instead give me my day in court. “I would state my case before him and fill my mouth with arguments.”

I love the study of mans morals clashing with sin. For Abraham to have refused to kill his son would have meant sinning against God although you rightly point out the immoral nature of the act. Job however doesn’t submit meekly, he takes God on about the injustice of his treatment. There is real moral indignation in Job’s words.

Cont’
Posted by csteele, Thursday, 18 June 2009 12:01:37 AM
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In the verses "But if I go to the east, he is not there; if I go to the west, I do not find him.
When he is at work in the north, I do not see him; when he turns to the south, I catch no glimpse of him.” one hears an accusation that God is avoiding facing Job.

I'm not saying he isn’t scared “God has made my heart faint; the Almighty has terrified me.” but he is not about to yield “Yet I am not silenced by the darkness, by the thick darkness that covers my face.”

In chapter 24 he proceeds to make the case that God has failed to deliver justice as promised. I would ignore verses 18-20 as they are so discordant with the rest of Job’s accusations that I feel they can only be later additions. He finishes with “"If this is not so, who can prove me false and reduce my words to nothing?". By chapter 28 he is becoming more direct “As surely as God lives, who has denied me justice, the Almighty, who has made me taste bitterness of soul,” and of his friend “I will never admit you are in the right; till I die, I will not deny my integrity.” Go Job you good thing!

When Job rhetorically asks “Where does understanding dwell?” his reply is “Destruction and Death say, 'Only a rumour of it has reached our ears.'. “ How true, I am quite moved by this verse. The tragedy of the Christmas tsunami defied understanding.

Job‘s next accusation is that God‘s behaviour toward him doesn‘t even measure up to that expected of man. "Surely no one lays a hand on a broken man when he cries for help in his distress.” however “Yet when I hoped for good, evil came; when I looked for light, then came darkness.”

He reminds God of his expected role “For what is man's lot from God above, his heritage from the Almighty on high? Is it not ruin for the wicked, disaster for those who do wrong?”

Cont’
Posted by csteele, Thursday, 18 June 2009 12:04:59 AM
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If so inclined skip Elihu’s dissertation (bit of a rehash) and rejoin at Chapter 38. One gets the sense that God wants Job to stand up and be counted, ironically. in my mind, calling for him to “Brace yourself like a man”. He then to proceeds to ask Job who the hell he thinks he is especially when compared to God. He comes off almost as a jock. Or a better description might be a disinterested Gulliver. ‘Oops, yeah okay, I stepped on another Lilliputian, but what do you expect, I’m busy doing important ’big peoples’ business that you wouldn‘t understand. I can’t be looking everywhere I step.’

I find the next four chapters a delight. There is an Errol Flynn aura about God’s address. Swashbuckling, confident, boastful, and but delivered with poetic, passionate descriptiveness and some humour.

There is a sense of disappointment that Job didn’t give God the third degree when invited to do so but I think most humans can understand. Job instead replies, "You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak; I will question you, and you shall answer me.' My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes." A very human response.

I imagine him thinking of God, ‘I had heard he was big but this bloke is built like a brick sh*thouse plus he has just finished telling me how bloody good he is and I believe every word. Discretion might be the better part of valour today I think.’

But there is another sense that Job seems to realise to futility of gaining God’s understanding of the nature of humans and their efforts at moral codes.

The Book of Job for me is about realising the limits to expectations of God. It is more about acceptance rather than faith and if his next dive bomb off the top tower wipes out another 100,000 then so be it, not just a force of nature but nature itself, he rarely means any harm by it.
Posted by csteele, Thursday, 18 June 2009 12:08:00 AM
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Dear csteele,

I shall reread Job and comment on the points you made.
Posted by david f, Thursday, 18 June 2009 6:44:29 AM
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cs steal<<Why do the wicked prosper/live long?”>>you must know..who's realm this is..[..i will explain..yet again..this is satans realm]..funny/[sad]..see/how evil thrives..in this realm,..but this realm/is of the flesh..[the next realms are of the spirit..that..the flesh revealed/in these realms]

job..is difficult to read..[here is this acclaimed..[god fearing dude,..who thinks he/knows the god..[of love and grace?]..not in the least..he's..a fool fearing the true god/love..with extreem wealth..[given him by the god..of THIS realm...satan..[to test him]..

satan was cast out of heaven/into this realm..[think of this realm as his/satans place of exile...the only place where good and bad can mix..where all we see/hear/feel..is made for us to see and hear through the fears and deceptions/of him who rules..[lords it over]..this realm..[a prison..to contain those rejecting eternal/life/grace/mercy/love..[god]...everyone here/gets a life sentance

true/good;..god..needs no sacrifice from sacrificial lambs..[for god gives life..[is not pleased/by the murder of any life..[all life is given from the true living/loving god]...read you not the law..[thou shalt not murder?..is that so complicated?

see that the deciever/decieves..[see even abraham..was decieved[thinking god..[the life-giver]..sought the death of his only son[pure insanity]..

who when he realised/the absurdity of murder..was further tested by satan needing him to murder..an innocent ram..[that he did murder..a sacrifice..[a life..given only from good[god]

think you god is pleased..with any murder?..even the lord of this realm tires of the sacrifice and blood whoreship...how stupid those calling themselves gods-people..yet not getting god is life..[no death serves the life-giver]

job was a wholy fool..who thought the wealth of this realm was true wealth..[read his words carfully/you hear from his own unclean lips he didnt know good/god..this fool was far from holy..[knew nothing of the LIVING god..that gifts us all..our very lives..

[who has sent..the new command..love of neighbour..is the how of loving god]...funny how logic escapes fools..[love god by serving life,..just like god serves each of us our very lives...

he who would lead/you will serve you..[not kill you]...death where is thy sting..[jesus revealed this is not his realm,..[he was offered this realm,..but wisely refused the wealth of the flesh..

know who's realm this is..
Posted by one under god, Thursday, 18 June 2009 9:42:47 AM
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one under god,
The satan of Job is ben el of the panthion of gods of the Chaldeans who was sent to administer the Earth. Job dismisses him in his claim there is but one God - the female terrestrial God El Shaddai (identified as Eloah the God of the Edomite Teman, Jacob while in Edom and Job). Job claims Yahweh has given and Yahweh has taken away. The use of Yahweh is a late inclusion in the text as Job the grandson did not know God as Yahweh see Exodus 6: 1 - 5 where God is first announced by Moses as Yahweh (see Hebrew text).

Job's conflict is with his polytheistic (gnostic) counsellors who are accusing him of sin against El. Elihu defends El and identifies his work in chapters 34 - 37 who is supposedly created all the cursed nature of the Earth; however YAHWEH speaks out of the wind (attributed to el by the polytheists) in chapters 38 - 41 identifying he created all things including things the Chaldeans attributed to El. In chapter 19 Job identifies the terrestrial God El Shaddai will be revealed in the Earth and vindicate his claim there is but one God of both heaven and Earth. There is no Satan as gnostics claim! No Baalzebub as Caananites claim. There is but one God who is God of life and death.
Posted by Philo, Thursday, 18 June 2009 9:29:15 PM
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