There is much controversy between two groups.

In the Genesis account we see a beautiful lush green world watered by mists, or springs (Genesis 2:6), and man at peace with the animal world. …a water bubble above the earth keeping the moisture in and the UV out.
The bubble…
“and God said, “Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water.” So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. God called the expanse “sky””…Genesis 1:6-8 (NIV).
Verse 9 says …”And God said, Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear”. And it was so”…

Voila! …a bubble canopy above a Created earth.
…and then the lush green plant life is Created (Genesis 1:11-13.)

Later on we see a record of a fall from Gods Grace and the world changed. Weeds appear and man is sent from the Garden and the animals are now wild and fending for themselves.
Later still we see a great Flood to rid the world of evil people and what’s left of the surface of the earth becoming scarred with canyons and valleys as the waters return to their source (Genesis 8:2-3).

Is the coal and oil use today from the compacting of that vegetation, by the great weight of the waters?

In support of the bone evidence, the Bible tells us dinosaurs were there on the earth.
Job 40:15-24 “(behemoth) he moves his tail like a cedar”.

http://www.creationists.org/dinosaurs.html

The Bible story supports there being dinosaurs.

Yet many question the Genesis account.

Some say it’s an old world? ..and swear by carbon dating.

Yet is carbon dating a flawless?

Christian believers say it’s a young world… young in accordance with the 6 days of Creation.

Q. Is there any irrefutable evidence that the Holy Bible Genesis account isn’t the truth?

Gibo

'Q. Is there any irrefutable evidence that the Holy Bible Genesis account isn’t the truth?'

Yes there has been plenty but only in time proven to be fraudulent.

Is there any proof that me and George Clooney aren't the same person? We've never been seen in the same room together, so there's no reason it can't be true.

http://www.atheists.org/evolution/creationscience.html

"...However the logicians may come down on this question, the fact remains that the creation myths recorded in the first and second chapters of Genesis are but two of a myriad of such myths, and creationists must find evidence to support one or the other of the mutually exclusive biblical accounts. The burden of proof now rests with the creationists..."

"...The Logic Of Evolution:
...The conclusion that evolution has occurred is drawn from two simple observations:

Observation 1: Living things come only from living things. Spontaneous generation is not possible when living things are already in existence [4].

Observation 2: Fossil remains show that living things in the remote past were very different from living things today.

THEREFORE:

Conclusion: Life has changed through time (evolved)..."

The Bible tells us we have one creator who made us all one God.
From the same stream come the Jews Christian and Islamic religions.
Yet the world has far more religions each claiming to be the one true one.
Evidence surely that they are fables, man made story's to comfort us in hard times.
Surely such a God would have not let so many false ones exist.
Those who believe have little trouble thinking they are right and the rest wrong, strange indeed.

Sancho: << Is there any proof that me and George Clooney aren't the same person? >>

Sorry Sancho, but I have to inform you that I'm George Clooney, so your theory is refuted. At least, that's what my darling partner thinks since her eyesight began to fail and the lights are off.

Prove me wrong.

Human Interest. Good observations.

The fact is, natural selection does occur. The problem is when this is unfairly (on the basis of available evidence) extrapolated to 'origins' of a spontaneous nature.

Ultimately that's where the conflict goes.

I still feel it's worth repeating that the first 2 verses of Genesis are not 'agin' science, rather, they are pro. But the degree of literalness applied to the concepts of day etc, and sequence of events... well.. perhaps it's better not to speculate too far.

It can be said though, that the problems people have with Genesis, reduce in direct proportion to their experience of the saving healing Grace of God.

PAUL was not the least concerned with the status of Genesis when he encountered the risen Christ on the road to Damascus....nope.. all he knew was that he was now physically blinded, he heard a voice, the voice identified Himself as Jesus, he went to Damascus led by the hand, and was healed miraculously, and now wanted to follow Christ.

PETER, when standing in front of the large crowd which just days before had be screaming for Jesus blood, and scoping out any of his followers; and spoke with boldness "This Jesus...whom YOU crucified" nope.. he was not struggling with the Genesis account :)

So.. to answer the question "Is there any evidence the Biblical account of Genesis isn't the truth" I'd say 'no' but it depends a fair bit on how you approach Genesis.

I meant to add this link earlier in the discussion. I've allowed this post, but with reservations, which were worked out at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2237.

Some weeks back, when I first pondered the Genesis account for a thread, my feeling was that all Ive been hearing from the pro-Evolution people, since I became a born again christian 26 years ago, was that Christians were the ones who needed to substantiate their claim to the Genesis account being an accurate truth.

The Christians dont need to substantiate their claim because they have The Holy Spirit Who confirms the Truth of The Holy Bible.

Nowhere had I ever seen a question, as far as I can recall, that challenges the pro-Evolutionists to prove the account wrong?

I believe the pro-Evolution group has no irrefutable evidence at all that proves the Genesis account false.

I only used a Creationist website on the dinosaurs because it has a good explanation of what The Bible said about those creatures.

Personally Im a simple Bible believer and dont belong to any Creationist group.
I simply believe the Holy Bible account of the First Book called Genesis.

We live in a world of stories. I can easily imagine that as language was being developed and refined, mankind spent a great deal of time using it to create an understanding of their environment. And - just as we all have done throughout our lives - speculated on the nature of the sky, the stars, the animals and the plants, the need for food, the miracle of procreation and the overall mystery of life.

Part of the process of this growing understanding was the telling of stories. Images have always been a powerful means of communication, and the best writer/storyteller has always been the one able to invoke the most powerful, and memorable images.

It is no surprise to me that at some point, someone envisaged and articulated the Genesis story. As has been pointed out many times, the same images have been evoked in many different cultures, all attempting in their own way to make sense of where we came from.

The need for "truth" becomes totally irrelevant in this process.

Genesis is a great story. It explained stuff that was otherwise incomprehensible to our ancestors. It made people feel warm and protected, as well as alert to the dangers of wrongdoing.

It has its own "truth".

It is not necessarily everyone's truth, but most importantly, it is entirely unnecessary to disprove it.

It may be that it is not the sort of scientific truth that is susceptible to testing. But that doesn't make it any less of a truth to those who wish to trust it.

Perhaps a question that we need to address before worrying this one to death is simply, what constitutes "truth"?

Is it merely "that which we as individuals believe to be true?"

This definition would at least explain why the world was once flat, and why the sun and stars once revolved around the earth.

Gibo said: "The Christians dont need to substantiate their claim because they have The Holy Spirit Who confirms the Truth of The Holy Bible."

And there you have it. Christians are absolved of the need to substantiate any claim yet the rest of us poor folk are required to provide hard evidence at the table.

No matter how well intentioned, Gibo and others of his ilk won't entertain the possiblity they are wrong, only that the rest of us carry the burden of proof.

Gibo - which version of the Genesis account do you mean?

Do you mean that account as recorded early in the christain bible followed by geneologies which suggest that the world is 5 to 7 thousand years old, that death came into the world at the time Adam and Eve sinned and that God played it straight? If so there is plenty of evidence in the fossil record, from the study of the universe, carbon dating etc.

If you mean the version where god went around planting false evidence to make the world look a lot older than it is, to make it look as if different life forms have existed at different times without overlap, to make it appear that light left stars and galaxies billions of years before those stars and galaxies came into existance, to make it seem that a young earth is false then probably not. It's rather difficult to prove that an all powerfull god could not be pulling off a massive deception.

Which god do you believe in?

R0bert

The Genesis 1 - 2: 3 account of the creation by the plural Elohim came from Chaldea and logically presents an order of emergence of species in periods of time, not 24 hour periods as governed by our sun whose light did not appear till the fourth day. Though the interdependence of some species indicates they emerged similtaneously as they cannot survive without the other.

The Adamic account Gen 2: 4 - 19 in the Bible though based upon early Chaldean ledgend Moses uses here to establish YHWH monotheism; man made in the image of God, then Eve made in the image of man. Though Male and female were planned and created similtaneously in the Chaldean account, Moses uses to establish unity of one. The point of the story of Adam is to indicate man and woman were made for relationship and now form one to express the full image of God.

Gibo
"...I believe the pro-Evolution group has no irrefutable evidence at all that proves the Genesis account false..."

And why do they need to? The scientists have plenty of evidence to back up their claims. Scientists rely on testable fact to explain natural phenomena only, not the supernatural or the magical - how can science disprove a non-scientific claim?

If the christians are making claims based on genesis, then they need to supply their proof. Unfortunately, the biblical scholars don't do any scientific lab research, their 'research' takes place only in libraries.

"...their "evidence" for creation is really nothing more than intentionally or unintentionally garbled evidence against evolution - as if they could prove the Genesis mythology by disproving Darwin!..."

Creation won't be the default theory left by virtue of the 'the only one left standing' if the christians can somehow disprove Darwin, they will still have to disprove all other mytholigies in existence

"...creationists are obliged, after they "disprove" naturalistic, evolutionary theories, to show that their own mythology is true. They must produce evidence that green plants existed before the sun was "created," and that all life and all of nature came into existence in six days..."

"CREATION SCIENCE" AND THE FACT OF EVOLUTION:

http://www.atheists.org/evolution/creationscience.htm

Sancho: << Is there any proof that me and George Clooney aren't the same person? >>

CJ Morgan: <<Sorry Sancho, but I have to inform you that I'm George Clooney, so your theory is refuted. At least, that's what my darling partner thinks since her eyesight began to fail and the lights are off.>>

Now look here boys. I've told you before that I'm not letting George out to play with you until he stops saying he's Alan Ladd.

I'm Rosemary Clooney, and you know it's true.

Dear Gibo,

According to World Book Encyclopedia:

"Most evolutionary changes occur too slowly
to be observed directly. However, scientists
in a number of fields have found much
evidence to support the theory of evolution.

This evidence comes from five principal sources:
1) Fossils, 2) Adaptations in organisms
3) Geographic distribution of species
4) Comparative studies of species and
5) Embryology."

However, as World Book points out, "many people
accept the basic principles of evolution within
the framework of their religious beliefs.

For example, some Biblical scholars interpret the
story of the Creation as a symbolic, rather than
literal, account of the origin of human beings,
and other living things. They don't find this
symbolic interpretation incompatible with the
findings of evolutionary biologists.

For many people, the idea that human beings evolved
from lower forms of life does not diminsh the
uniqueness of human capabilities and the
accomplishments of human civilizations."

The Genesis story was written by four different authors and all were written in captivity on the banks of the Euphrates.These are folkloric.Each is true enough in a poetic sense i.e that each has a viable structure and tells its narrative as understood by the author about the Iron Age world. The 4 authors were given names like P ( for priestly author) D ( the Deutronomist) and there were two others whose names I cant recall at present and I am lazy so I wont refresh my memory...they are in my theological notes somewhere. Oh by the way the third was E (the Elohist) ...suddenly came to me. One of you might supply the name of the remaining author,I hope.None of these were meant to be scientific accounts so they werent looking for empirically derived evidence for their stories.Stories was all they really were.

They werent the only ones doing this,by the way. There are other accounts of how the world was created that exist in Sumerian and Chaldean folk stories. These were inscribed in clay and were in the archives in Baghdad and Damascus.I doubt that the Bagdad ones have survived as the archives in the national library is currently a heap of rubble, sad to say.

socratease

Hi Gibo,
Scientists are into the business of explaining observations, I doubt they would want to throw away their meager funding into disproving things that aren’t observable.
I think that the therory of evolution is a contradiction of genesis if we’re talking about the literal interpretation of genesis.
The nature of science is such, that scientific theories are never seen as irrefutible.
But the evidence we have collected in favour of evolution so far is overwhelming and supported by many fields.
.
Despite the best efforts of scientists (and creationists) to overthrow the evolution theory, it hasn’t been disproven.
Not a single observation, not one piece of evidence since Darwin times has come about that contradicted the established theory of evolution.

Creationists seem to think that scientists develop a theory and then try to protect that theory in the same way as creationists protect ‘the word of God’.
This is not so.
Scientists, unlike creationists, do not have a ‘book of one truth’ in which they have faith and which they need to protect from criticism.

Creationists seem to think that scientists make a living by producing evidence that supports established theories.
In fact, they are in the business of disproving an established theory. ANY scientists who is able to disprove the status quo, by producing evidence that overthrows the theory will be instantly famous.

So, scientists are always out to not only to support, but to disprove their own theories and hypotheses, while creationists are out to prove that the genesis story is correct.

That's where you're wrong, CJ.

I've got a collection of Bronze-age folk stories with a grab-bag of appendices written over the following 5 centuries which say I am the one true Clooney.

Infidel.

Like graham, I am starting to get the sh@ts with all this, you are wrong and I am right bulsh@t! Shut this down now! When the ship is sinking, all this nonsense goes right out the window, Its time to call a time-out.
The world is in deep crap! and its time to think about trying to fix it! and once we have solved this problem, then we can figure out what came first, the chicken or the egg.

Have a nice day.

EVO

EVO be calm, you see the reason the thread was questioned before its birth.
And maybe a refusal of some to get involved in the debate yet a need to be here.
Far worse things have happened in threads, we knew both sides could never agree.
And never will.
I think we even understood some would divert the thread but who expected any different.
The sun is rising above the hill out the front and it is evidence enough for me evolution is the truth, see the Bible told us it was not as it is.

Hi Pericles.

Sure there have been many, many stories from many, many cultures.

What makes the Holy Bible stories different is one person...The Holy Spirit.

In Genesis 1:2 we see ..."Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters".

From the very beginning we have The Holy Spirit doing His Will all over the earth.

see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit

...and I cannot tell you just how REAL The Holy Spirit is to the Christian believer.
As pentcostals we go on and on about The Holy Spirit because He fills our churches. He's invited to do so.
For those who Seek Him there are healings, miracles, tongues, raisings from the dead, words of knowledge to individual congregationalists, prophecies, even visions of the future.

HE is the reason we live.
He is the One who gets His Will done and brings people to know Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. "All scripture is Inspired by God"...2 Timothy 3:16.
He sat down the old writers of Holy Bible, even though they were not at the original events, and got them to record the truth that God wanted to impart to man.
This is what makes the Bible different to culture stories.

Pelican.
Yes the christians dont have to substantiate the claim regarding Genesis and the fact that God is the Creator of everything, or that any other part of Gods Word is true...but we do try, so that people will hear and The Holy Spirit can reach out and touch their hearts and they can get saved.

Its sometimes hard to explain ...but when you know that the truth, is the truth, is the truth, is the truth...then you know about the truth.
As sure as the sun rises and the birds begin to chirp each morning we know that God is there and Has done it all.

Its always good to establish a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ while we are alive.
Gods a friend and wants to know us personally.

Ah - but Sancho, I have an eyewitness account from someone who is still living. Admittedly, her testimony might be construed as evidence that her eyes aren't that good or that she has a vivid imagination, but at least it's contemporary.

Heretic.

Spikey - are you suggesting that George is a triune Clooney? I mean, there's Sancho, me and now your Clooney.

Verily, this thread is becoming a Clooney Bin.

Dear Celivia....you MUST go into standup comedy :)

Lines like:

"Scientists, unlike creationists, do not have a ‘book of one truth’ in which they have faith and which they need to protect from criticism."

...just about required a visit to intensive care for me as the medical impact of my convulsive all over the floor laughter became quite life threatening :)

No book of truth ? :) errrr *cough*.. "theories... research grants.. livelihoods.. reputations.. funding.. mark in history... name...legacy"

*fights back the choking*

RObert.
Yes...that version.
The version that said God did it in 6 days and rested on the 7th.
The version with the geneologies.

I dont know everything and Im happy to admit it.
No christian does.
WHO IS ALIVE TODAY WHO WAS LIVING AT THE BEGINNING and saw it?
Either christian or evolutionist?

We christians simply have The Holy Spirit to Guide us to the truth that is Written.

He makes ALL the difference.

The conflict with Lucifer over mens souls fits the geneologies of the Bible and points to a conflict some 6,000 years old.
see the Lucifer story
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

Some data presented suggests longer ages...but All of the real "Creation activity" has been occuring in the 6,000 period time frame.
Theres evidence that levels of sediment can solidify very quickly (Mount St.Helens)... and it puts the "millions of years layers" to much shame...and how conveniently the Evolution group overlooks it!
see
http://www.answersingenesis.org/TJ/v11/i2/nature.asp

How accurate carbon dating is I also dont know.
Theres conflict in that arena as well I understand.

*I was only asking the question "was there any irrefutable evidence that the Genesis account wasnt true"?

We christians get picked on constantly, and sometimes hideously, by the pro-Evolutionists yet they cannot prove the Holy Bible to be incorrect.

Interesting Philo.
Im standing with the Moses writings as Moses being touch by The Holy Spirit to write exactly what the Holy Spirit wanted him to write.
It would have been wonderful to have seen it all happen and how God did it all and how it all fell into place. Only the angels were so priveliged.
I believe the Bible account is what God wants us to know... even if we havent got a full light on how He did it.

I'm genuinely puzzled at this particular outburst, Boaz.

>>No book of truth ? :) errrr *cough*.. "theories... research grants.. livelihoods.. reputations.. funding.. mark in history... name...legacy" *fights back the choking*<<

Perhaps you could nominate one single book of scientific truth for us, to explain your unseemly sarcasm - at least, I think that's what it is supposed to be.

The entire point of scientific discovery is that it is constantly... err, discovering. Any theory may at any time be supplanted by another, usually one demonstrating a finer understanding of both the problem and its relationship with the world.

In the meantime, we live comfortably in the realm of "weight of evidence", not requiring, or seeking, a categoric statement that "this is so, forever and a day".

Personally, I am fascinated by the work of astronomers, who spend their working lives discovering new galaxies, and forming views on such stuff as dark matter and dark energy, to try to nail down some of the bits that are on the periphery of our understanding.

My son asked me the other day "Dad, what happens when two black holes collide?" I couldn't answer him, I could only conjecture, from my limited understanding of the science involved. Neither of us was particularly perturbed that we couldn't come up with an answer.

But it also prompted me to ask the biblical scholars on this thread what their answer would be to this question.

Do black holes exist?

As a Christian, one of the things that worries me about a thread like this is that you often find posters making sweeping statements like "Christians believe..." when what they mean is that "some Christians believe...".

The Catholic Church accepts evolution, and as the largest Christian denomination world-wide that has to speak volumes for what Christians really think. I'm not a Catholic, I'm basically Anglican, and as far as I know most Anglicans believe in evolution. I was brought up Methodist, which is now part of the Uniting Church and I'd be sure the same thing applies there. Between those three denominations in Australia you have around 60% of Christians.

Thomas Aquinas, a famous Catholic theologian once said that God wrote two great books - the Bible, and the book of Nature - implicating science and logic in theological reasoning. Anglicans have a three-legged stool approach to theology where they look at scripture; logic and reason; and the practices of the Church.

In that context I think most Australian Christians would accept the Bible account of Genesis, but as allegory, not hard fact. In which case "evidence" doesn't arise in the sense that Gibo uses it. I'll accept the biblical account of creation because of the truths that I can tease out of it, not because it is the truth in an immutable way.

To treat Genesis and the bible as the ultimate truth denies that revelation still occurs, which is I think a profoundly un-Christian point of view. And on that sweeping statement, I'll stop.

Human interest
The christians have the Holy Spirit as their guide. he confirms the truth. We dont have to go any scientific process ways because we get the truth from Gods Spirit.

Check out the Charles Darwin story at http://www.carm.org/evo_questions/deathbed.htm

It shows Charles as a reader of the Bible and his perplexitiy at how his youthful thoughts/ponderings had taken off so wildly by those who lapped them up.

"As a Christian, one of the things that worries me about a thread like this is that you often find posters making sweeping statements like "Christians believe..." when what they mean is that "some Christians believe..."."

Context. Among regular OLO commenters those "some Christians" are better represented than Christians generally. They're like George Clooneys around here.

I would like to know more about how your average Christian accommodates evolution and black holes colliding and the creation of life in test tubes, but I'm not going to find out here.

One of the most intriguing things I've heard came from a Christian on the topic of the particle accelerator, if that's what it's called. If it could prove the big bang, would that disprove god? Apparently not. All it would prove as that it is possible for a creator to have created the big bang. Stumped this atheist far more effectively than acres of biblical quotes with no more evidence than a bit of intelligent and independent thought.

Hi Foxy.
I posted up this website a bit earlier

http://www.answersingenesis.org/TJ/v11/i2/nature.asp

It shows how sediment levels can form very quickly e.g. in this case at Mount St. Helens.
These photos, and others similar, convinced my wife that we dont need millions of years.

Im very much inclined by the Holy Spirit to take the Genesis account, and everything else in the Bible, as a literal account of what God Wanted to convey to men and women.

My born again christian experience, the arrival of the Holy Spirit in my life as I asked Jesus into it, inclines me over to this view.
All other born againers would see it the same.

Socratease
Sorry about those Bagdag records in clay.
I guess they probably werent genuine otherwise God would have protected them.
Despite it all, and all who sought so determindly to destroy the Bible down through the ages...it wonderfully lives on to give millions daily hope.
Thats really says something to me about it being a God-Given record.
Its indestructible!

I'n not a strong believer in the 6 days of creation idea as 6 literal days, although I will acknowledge as a Christian that it could be true.
The problem I have with accepting that the 6 days of creation as 24 hour days, is that God did not create the Sun until the 4th day, so we don't know what was used to measure the first 4 days of creation.
Even many fundementalist preachers (including the now disgraced Jimmy Swaggart) have questioned the literal 6 days of creation.
The importance of the Bible account of creation (and other historical events)to me is not whether or not they really happened, but the message which it contains.
Evolution has its problems as well. Evolution implies that the changes took place gradually over a very long period of time, but we have very little evidence of the missing links. Variations within a species (different races of human beings, different breeds of cats and dogs) are the result of selective breeding rather than evolution, and can take place within only a few generations. Generally any offspring of two different but similar species is infertile. (eg, Mules - Horses & Donkeys, Liger - Lion & Tiger, Wolphin - Whale & Dolphin).

Many people (including the Christian motivational speaker Zig Ziglar) claim Charles Darwin renounced his theory of evolution on his death bed, but other sources dispute this. I would like to think he did, but can't be sure.

Gido, "...The christians have the Holy Spirit as their guide. he confirms the truth. We dont have to go any scientific process ways because we get the truth from Gods Spirit..."

Well, you may believe that you know god's truth, tell me where does god's spirit reside - in your head? If you want to prove that your god exists, then you really do need to provide evidence, otherwise you just have a faith.

I read Darwin's biography. I thought that he started off as a creationist, but as he researched he was forced to turn away from the word of the bible (something that was quite conflicting for him), but his own evidence was too profound.

People have EXPERIENCED being abducted by aliens, rising up out of their bodies, muslims have experienced allah (how many gods are there?) Some people even claim to be god.

"...As real as it may feel, a psychological experience cannot be used to empirically determine the existence or non-existence of God. That's where evidence comes in...

...there are many ways to induce these type of experiences. fasting, the use of psychedelic drugs, sleep deprivation, meditation, etc. and, as abraham maslow argues in his beautiful little book 'religions, values and peak-experiences', everybody is capable of having them...

...Loving god does not as such imply that god exists. It is possible to feel love towards an imaginary person if one only believes that the person in question exists. Love as such is not a proof of the existence of the object of love..."

http://richarddawkins.net/article,2016,People-whove-experienced-God-KNOW-that-God-exists,RichardDawkinsne

Dear Gibo,

I agree with Tor Hundloe, who
feels,that "... in the 21st Century
we can blend scientific thinking with
the search for a greater meaning in life."
The two don't need to be in confrontation.
We can have a multi-faceted quest.

Brian Bates', "The Real Middle Earth," p.30,
sums it up well, when he says:

"Today, there is a renewed hunger for
magic and mystery in a modern world in
which technology has failed to deliver peace,
and science has proven to be an inappropriate
language for finding answers to deeper
questions about our experiences...human
imagination is once again considered as
important as our rational mind.

We need both. Middle-Earth has returned."

This reference into the world of the Middle-Earth
shows, not that our search should not be based on
science, rather that it should not be based on
science alone.

We need reasoned discussion. We need an exchange of
ideas. The aim should not be to quarrel, but to
try to understand and respect each other if we
are to survive on this planet.

Dear Pericles..

1/ yes, I'm sure black holes exist. (was that some kind of trick question?)

2/ There have been many examples of scientific fraud ..but really, while I can probably ferret out some.. I'd rather just do what I did with my cousin in Collingwood when I was about 6 ..stand on a street corner and yell "HEEEEERRRRALD.. REeeeead all about it"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_misconduct

Belly. As usual your right, and while most of us are in first gear, the three stooges are in Constance reveres. With all the evidence that is available now days, I think some have to swallow ideologies, along with pride and change their tune.
As for the big-bang theory, as soon as we get visuals on the matter concerning black holes joining, which I still believe its all a matter of create and destroy as in my first post on here says, its the closest theory man has got today. I believe black holes will all join up to create a super dense magnetic vortex that will suck everything back into its self and BANG! it all starts again.

If god made the universe, he designed it to run automatic! Its obviously not here looking out for us in every way imaginable by believers. I tend to think we are seeded here on this planet and if lived all those thousand of years ago and something came out of the sky, I would call it god too.
But as for now, evolution is the best for mans organs which I have painstakenly put down on this site over the last 12 months.

Faith is all it is! and evolution has provided us with that as well.

The programming that evolution has brought us is seen in everything we are and about to become.

Hypothetically, we maybe the product from a highly advanced race of humanoids which comes back from time to time just to see how we are going, and there's some evidence to support that.

The truth is not on this planet, and to be this highly intelligent by accident, is just too hard to believe. These little visits that was viewed by early man may just be for the belief in god that we speak of, and it could be all as simple as that!

But then again! It could be all in our minds.

EVO

Porkycrap: << There have been many examples of scientific fraud ..but really, while I can probably ferret out some.. >>

Who'd believe anything you say without corroborating evidence?

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2200#48496

Interesting responses, Boaz.

Neither makes a great deal of sense, I'm afraid.

>>1/ yes, I'm sure black holes exist. (was that some kind of trick question?)<<

You are sure?

You haven't seen one. There are no references to black holes in the bible. All you have to go on is a bunch of scientific theories, yet somehow you are sure there are black holes.

It isn't a trick question - although the certitude of your response did surprise me, I must confess. I was more interested in how our creationists explain these phenomena to themselves, when there is no "guiding truth" available in the form of an ancient set of books.

But this stumped me completely.

>>There have been many examples of scientific fraud ...<<

Who mentioned fraud?

Your spluttering sarcasm - "No book of truth ? :) errrr *cough*.." etc., was aimed at Celivia's point that...

"Scientists, unlike creationists, do not have a ‘book of one truth’ in which they have faith and which they need to protect from criticism."

No hint of fraud there. Simply an observation that science is continuously on the move, finding new and clearer explanations for the features of our universe. And along with it comes the certainty that there is no certainty, only the latest and cleverest balance of evidence.

Scientists do of course defend their theories, quite vehemently at times. But logic, precision of thought and careful analysis of existing data will invariably win the day.

Temporarily, of course.

The thing is Gibo, today religion is biiig business! I note in
today's West, an article about the old Pope spending 200 Grand to
put on a concert for his brother's birthday celebration. So much
for helping the poor etc.

Tele evangelists, the clap and sing Church in Sydney I'm told
collects around 50 million a year, lets face it religion is
flogging a product. The promise of a life after death, the joys
of heaven, no torture in hell if one behaves, etc. etc.

Now if I go out and flog a product to consumers, I need to be able
to prove my claims, or the ACCC will come along and do me in for
false advertising.

Religion of course is exempt from all this. Its a miracle :)

You claim whatever you want, no matter how crazy, take peoples money,
promise them whatever you feel like promising and get away with
it all scott free and usually without paying a cent in income tax.

Wow what a clever business!

Yet after 2000 years of Christianity, one would think that somebody
could provide some substantiated evidence, that what you are claiming
is true. So far 2000 years of failure, no substantiated evidence.

Isn't it about time that religions, which earn huge amounts of
money after all, are accountable for their claims, like any other
business?

Where is your substantiated evidence for your claims Gibo?

BTW, I was born just fine the first time, so no need to be born
again :)

.

Yabby! Your a legion! lol. and this is one of my arguments.

ITS A CON! financially for the dollar!= destroyed credabilty.

But faith is cool. and back to the point. Its all guess work and so is science. Could it be, we are all on the same page? but just in a different time frame?

Genesis! mmmmmm! Interesting.

Larry, moe, and joe! any comments?

EVO

Thanks Celivia.

What you about scientists said was interesting.
The evolutionists, the real critics, many of them like the Skeptics, seem to get bogged down with carbon dating and sediments layers.

Sediment layers can form very quickly as I showed in the Mount St. Helens link.
Any data the skeptics groups put up, I find is always frail and Christians will reject it because of Gods conviction that the Word is true.
Many look at the physical realm... yet the Beginnings are in the Spiritual with God.

Evo
“ the world is in deep c&#p”?
Sorry but its going to get a tad worse.
The Bible says that towards the Second Coming there will be a great increase in wars (nations are going to slug it out more), earthquakes will be frequent, famines will spread and diseases are going to sweep the globe (Luke chapter 21).
Crime is going to be much more out of control (2 Timothy 3)
It’s all happening right now.
The worlds falling to bits because of the ungodliness of the people.
They are giving up morality to dance with dark powers in the spirit realm.
Every day we see the fruit of the dance in the media.

Many of the committed Christians that I know have given up on answers to the problems.
We now focus on mostly on Christ’s Second Coming.

Later on we will see huge Christian revival and people seeking the safest place to be... in solid, full, Bible-believing Christian churches.

RObert, “Gibo - which version of the Genesis account do you mean?”
Yes Gibo means the literal interpretation of the Genesis. I think that this guy explains it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaEj3g5GOYA

Gibo, thanks for your reply.
Your Mount St. Helen’s link is interesting, but scientists have not denied that the formation of layers in one type of geologic sedimentation system can form quickly, for example, layers of volcanic ash.
Creationists and scientists agree that this system exists and layers can form quickly.

But what creationists push is only PART of the truth; it is not true that quick formation has happened within other types of systems. For example, parts of the Green River Formation in the US contain about 6 million layers. These represent 3 million years of sedimentation.

If you and your wife find it interesting to learn more about it, just google Green River Formation or Varve Formations and it will become clear to you that what the creationists highlight only part of the truth and that they don’t have an valid argument against the other sedimentation systems where layers have formed slowly.

GY
Genesis as allegory? Symbolic/other meanings?

You might get a clash of opinions from the more lively churches if you challenged Genesis as being a story with other possible things etc behind it.

We take it as the literal truth that God wants to convey.

If we challenge the Word, we can pick it to pieces and then it’s lost.
Its got huge healing power if we get those scriptures into our spirits.
We wouldnt want to lose that.
We don’t challenge it.

I do 3 charismatic churches in the week and we all see Genesis as literal.


The charismatics are the growing power in the churches because the Holy Spirit is with us all the more.
We seek His Gifts and this is seen by the many miracles, healings and wonderful born again experiences in the charismatic churches.

People need a personal relationship with Jesus …not religion.

Sometime ago a Brisbane man went looking to get 'saved' by having someone lead him to Jesus Christ and walked into a traditional Uniting Church looking for hope and got the answer, “We don’t do that here. There’s a charismatic church down the road, they do that there”.

I have no trouble treating The Word as immutable…and I still have room for additional revelation to Christian believers.

The Word doesn’t get touched or altered. We simply test what Comes and if it lines up with The Word and the circumstances we take it to heart.

Foxy.
I wasn’t quarreling on this issue.
There’s been a lot of talk so far, yet, really no one has given an answer to the thread question.


The search for ‘magic and mystery in a modern world’ can lead people, especially susceptible children, over to the dark side of the spirit world…if they push in that direction.
That’s why we, the charismatics, oppose literature like Harry Potter so much.
The practices offered by and in Rowling’s literature actually open doors to demon powers.
Feeding youngsters 'magic and mystery' is very dangerous.

Porky: << yes, I'm sure black holes exist >>

Like Pericles, I'm rather surprised that Porky's so sure that black holes exist, given that they are constructs of scientific theory - in much the same way that evolution by natural selection is. That is, they are the most plausible explanations for natural phenomena that scientific method and reasoning have yet produced.

Why black holes but not natural selection? Or is Porky just cherry-picking scientific theories to fit his idosyncratic worldview in much the same way that he does with religious ideologies?

Dear Gibo,

If you re-read my first post in this thread
you will see that I have answered the question
that you ask in this thread.

I said:

"Scientists in a number of fields have found
much evidence to support the theory of
evolution. This evidence comes from FIVE
principal sources:

1) Fossils. 2) Adaptations in organisms.
3) Geographic distribution of species.
4) Comparative studies of species.
5) Embryology."

You said that the "search for magic and
mystery in a modern world can lead people over to
the dark side...especially children..."

I agree that if children don't have
clear values or a real code to live by - they may be
be influenced by inappropriate (or just plain stupefying)
influences. Television, for example - should not be a
moral authority for children.

But stories found in books, by contrast seep into our very
being. We all have books that lifted the fog for us, caused the
Great Aha!, and literally changed our lives.

In my own case I learned from biographies that even
great individuals start out as everyday children, letting
all children know that life's possibilities are without
limit.

There are the role models in fairy tales and legends
and historical stories. Cinderella enchanted not because she
got the prince but because she was cheerful and dignified even
in unbearable circumstances. King Arthur showed what a
noble deed looked like, and that there is such a thing as
duty and sacrifice.

But, it does make sense to be aware of what your children
are reading, and to make sure that the best books -
including classics old and new, are available to them.

I personally find that the Harry Potter series by J.K.
Rowling are spellbinding, her richly woven narrative,
plunges, twists and turns at a breathtaking pace. It
confirms the author as a mistress of storytelling, whose
books will be read, re-read and read again.

As I said in another thread, our role as parents is not to
protect our children from the truth, but to protect them
from something less than the truth.

Gibo, I know some Christians take Genesis literally, but not very many, and they are not representative.

I have problems with taking not only Genesis literally, but with a number of other things in the bible, such as the virgin birth. I've done my own straw polls on things like the virgin birth and find that is fairly widely accepted. I've been surprised to find that believers I have polled include academic lawyers, a biologist (PhD), patent attorney, and obstetrician. So, clearly what I regard as impossible many intelligent people have a different view on.

I was also a little shocked last Christmas when having dinner with my then partner and some of her extended family to find that her brother and sister-in-law, all of them academic over-achievers, were creationists. That cooled the conversation for a while and arose in the context of my comment that you had to worry when a creationist (Mitt Romney) could be in the running for President of the United States. Just goes to show that minorities are everywhere!

"Just goes to show that minorities are everywhere!" (GrahamY)

Also goes to show that intelligence (high levels of schooling) and commonsense are not necessarily close allies.

Dear CJ... this is how these wearisome myths arise..and they are so doggone frequent, I hope you understand why I don't bother going back to 'EXPOSE' them in my own defense.

1/ I have NOT denied natural selection.(in fact I've specifically said I know it to be a fact)

2/ You CLAIM that I do.

3/ Then you go off on one of your frequent (ad nauseum) "black holes but not natural selection" mini diatribes.

Now..I COULD make a huge song and dance and fuss about you 'telling porkies' and 'lies' and blah blah and try to decimate your credibility as you are want to do to me. But (this is something I hope you will have a Damascus road experience about by the way)
the reality is.. we do make little muff ups at times..and it does not mean we are abject liars. Unless you wish to admit that your last post was one:)

I apply the same standards you apply to mine.. but hey.. isn't it just easier to get on with the conversation and just work with others to simply clarify stuff?

Yesssssss.. SUREEEE it is :) (looks around for a bright light over CJ's place ?_?)

Now come on.. *coax coax*... be a nice person from now on ok?

TOPIC..as most of you probably already see, this kind of topic reaches a point where start on the 'my evidence is better than yours' road, but there is sooooooooooooo MUCH "evidence" out there covering sooooooo MANY areas of life.. how in this wide world can we expect to resolve such an issue here?

By the way..whoever said "God created light on the 4th day" needs to go back and READ the jolly text.. (Gen_Ch1)

-Verse1 "God...created"

-Verse2 "Earth..formless and void DARKNESS"

-Verse3 "Let their be LIGHT" DAY ONE.

The scientific issue to be resolved with the Theological text here is just how the Sun (created on the 4th day) relate to 'LIGHT' being created on the first :) Have fun.

Pure chutzpah, Boaz.

>>Now..I COULD make a huge song and dance and fuss about you 'telling porkies' and 'lies' and blah blah and try to decimate your credibility as you are want to do to me. But... the reality is.. we do make little muff ups at times..and it does not mean we are abject liars.<<

And as with all chutzpah, one does have a sneaking inclination to stand back and admire the sheer bald-faced effrontery with which it is delivered.

"Little muff-ups" Boaz?

"At times"?

"it does not mean we are abject liars."?

If at any stage you had shown the slightest inclination to 'fess up to your gross distortions of reality, Boaz, there might be a part of me somewhere that could possibly be persuaded that they are, after all, merely "muff-ups".

But no, you breeze right along, continuing the pretence that nothing requires correction or elucidation.

And without a skerrick of shame, you deliver the next classic Boaz-ism, like an incontinent puppy on a doormat.

Then there are the constant misstatements, pretending you hear one thing when the meaning is totally different... "scientific fraud...", and "No book of truth ? :) errrr *cough*"

So, enough of the injured innocence already.

Back to the topic.

Did you write this with a straight face?

>>The scientific issue to be resolved with the Theological text here is just how the Sun (created on the 4th day) relate to 'LIGHT' being created on the first :) Have fun.<<

Thought not.

But just for the record, there is no "scientific issue" here.

Just mythology, primitive metaphor and populist imagery.

"...The Bible says that towards the Second Coming there will be a great increase in wars (nations are going to slug it out more), earthquakes will be frequent, famines will spread and diseases are going to sweep the globe (Luke chapter 21)..."

And how many wars and hatreds are based on religious beliefs? Extreme religion (and I place the pentacostals in that category) and the prejudices, intolerances and judgments that go with it are the problem and the cause of the wars. The evangelic George Bush is on record as saying that he is a 'war president' and that he is on a 'mission from god', Sarah Palin thinks she is also on a mission from god - dangerous stuff! Why are the religious so happy to kill and demonise other people, just because they don't share their views?

Earthquakes might be less frequent if some of the religious were actually concerned about the environment and didn't harbour the view of leaving it all to 'god's will'.

Famines would be less if the selfish religous actually spread the wealth around and gave to others instead of the 'greed is good' and 'worship the almighty $' mentality that abounds in the evangelical churches. Diseases (and famine) might be less prevalent if the fundy churches promoted abortion, condoms and sex education in schools instead of the idiotic abstinence for hormone fuelled teenagers and young adults.

In short, if the religious were more concerned with humanity and less with the bible, the world would be a better place. You don't need religion to live a life of morality, concern for all humanity and helping those less fortunate then yourself.

I've just read the whole thread. Thank you Steele Mann for your lucid grounded contribution with not a hint of unprovoked ad hominem.

There are many websites available
in which lucidity and rational
play a part in the Creation vs Evolution
debate. One has to simple find the time
to scrawl through them.

This one is an example that may
be of interest:

http://www.123infinity.com/creation_vs_evolution.html

You're prevaricating yet again, Porky. While you did acknowledge that "natural selection" does occur, you then proceeded to demonstrate that you don't have a clue as to what is meant by the term and its critical role in the origin of species:

<< The fact is, natural selection does occur. The problem is when this is unfairly (on the basis of available evidence) extrapolated to 'origins' of a spontaneous nature >>

In my last post I referred to "evolution by natural selection". My reading of your original comment (from which the above quotation is taken) is that you were fudging, probably on the basis of your lack of understanding of Darwin's theory. This is, no doubt, also why you're so sure that black holes exist - i.e. you don't understand physics any better than you do biology, but there's nothing about black holes in your holy book so you're happy to defer to scientific authority on that one.

I don't blame you for your obvious lack of education, but I do object to the persistent mendacity and arrogance by which you attempt to foment hatred, ignorance and divisiveness in this forum.

Speaking of which, how about your most recent lie in your thread about Bill Henson? I only ask this here because you seem to have deserted that thread once the lie was exposed. If it was simply a case of "muffing" it, why not acknowledge your error and retract the claims you made on the basis of it?

Hi Foxy.
Yes... I see your five sources and yet they dont preclude a Creator. The material for everything to happen and subsequently exist, was there from before the Beginning.

The Creator is known to the men and women of earth, down through history, by His Spirit and the folks who know His Spirit are the ones who have His Spirit and He, the Spirit being in us born againers, is the Convicting Power regarding the Creation.

Outside of having Gods Spirit I understand that its difficult to get that Conviction.
Its in this area of not having Gods Spirit in our lives that the evolution theory comes into existance with a little 'help' from a persistant dark side.

It must seems strange all of this talk of His Spirit, but thats the way it is.

Ive been born again with His Spirit in me 26 years and am now so used to having Gods Spirit in me that I quite often forget that there was an 'old life' when I was thrashing around in my fallen, carnal state doing my own thing...and forming my own theories.

I was hoping someone might have had some new and unique evidence apart from what Ive been reading much of my life on the the origin of the species/man-out-of-apes/the survuval of the fittest stuff.

The evolutions give the christians 'hell' quite often in this area of the Genesis account... yet what have they got that precludes a Divine Creator?
Zip!

Everything Ive seen or heard to date doesnt cut out "Someone", we know Him by His Indwelling Spirit as The Lord, from starting the whole show off.

Foxy...
re: the witchcraft literature

I find it a real sly and cunning and evil thing that the Potter books present young magicians actually doing battle with evil spirits and dark powers...and...showing to the children of this age, in the process of this depicted conflict, exactly how to get involved with REAL dark powers through the witchcraft practices shown in the novels... practices that can actually, in certain circumstances, open doors to audible communication with dark powers.
Its so slick its almost remarkable.
Slicker than any used car salesman ever was or ever will be.

Satan using Rowling, with her contact to demon powers already established, to write books to get doors to childrens minds open.
The warlocks and witches will love her. She's feeding them fresh converts. Cementing Goth culture. Drawing to clairvoyance. Openning girls to the allure and sexual immorality of the warlocks. Its all happening...some through young Harry Potter.

Many a young person has played with an OUIJA board and had, suddenly and without warning, control of the board taken from them by an unexpected and fearsome power.

Like some of the other born again christians, Ive fellowshiped with over the years in the charismatic christian churches, Ive had contact with those dark powers and have been in a position, from time to time, to have to have had to actually rise up to fight them off when they attacked me in my sleep.

GY.

Those who take Genesis literally sure are many, if not all, in my church circles.
Same with the Salvos I came out of before the charismatics.

I have no trouble at all with the Virgin Birth, healings, miracles, raisings from the dead.
One of my pastors had a pancreatic cancer healing right on the spot in front of the congregation.
The Holy Spirit is everywhere He is invited to, in churches who step out and invite Him.

So, basically the answer to the original question is:

Yes, lots. But you won't believe any of it. Because if God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omipresent, then anything is possible and science doesn't mean anything at all. The universe is able to be changed at will.

MJBP said:

<<Thank you Steele Mann for your lucid grounded contribution with not a hint of unprovoked ad hominem.>>

hmm you mean like THIS one from CJ morgan?

<<I don't blame you for your obvious lack of education, but I do object to the persistent mendacity and arrogance by which you attempt to foment hatred, ignorance and divisiveness in this forum.>>

Or this one from Pericles?

<<If at any stage you had shown the slightest inclination to 'fess up to your gross distortions of reality, Boaz, there might be a part of me somewhere that could possibly be persuaded that they are, after all, merely "muff-ups".>>

All the while, ignoring their 'interesting' take on many issues, which, (if they had the required education) they would most likely not make. I won't say they are uneducated at all, but simply uneducated in the areas where they claim I myself distort history etc.

You blokes see distortions because you rarely see with unblinkered eyes. I never cease to be amazed at the way "I don't know anything about this" is juxtaposed with "But ur wrong wrong wrong, and all you do is stir up trouble" kind of thing.. (very loose paraphrase)

Hysteria in people who lack knowledge can be a dangerous thing. They tend to leap into dangerous conclusion-quicksand.

CJ goes to extensive lengths to try to portray "I know natural selection is a fact" into "You demonstrate you are uneducated and don't understand and then you deny it anyway" (summary of your expressed views)

Well dear fellows, I can only regard such extreme and unfriendly overtures as signs of desperation and lack of counter argument....
"if you can't whup the message, whup the messenger"

Don't worry, my hide is quite well conditioned.

The difference between us is that I don't waste huge amounts of time trawwwwling through all your previous posts JUST to try to show "you made a mistake ummmaaaahhhh".. some reflection might be in order boys.

I anticipate that about 3 weeks from now, dear CJ will be reminding me of some huge LIE about natural selection :)

Dear Gibo,

Perhaps Genesis and Evolution are inter-linked?
One tells us "Who." The other, "How."

Perhaps God gave humanity the intelligence to
eventually develop the skills to find out the
reality of evolution, and the connection it has
with Genesis?

Graham,
Despite what I said on the ‘feeler’ I wonder how you view the outcome of the debate?
I’m pleased the ad hominem attacks didn’t really get off the ground.
Three points.
• The wording of the question was a logical nul. It is logically impossible to prove a negative only that there are explanations that fit the facts better.
• I did note however that there was virtually no anthropologic archaeological based facts given that indicate that much of Genesis is an amalgam of variations of older pagan religions.
• ‘Debates’ don’t seem to take much attention of biological imperatives i.e. the 40 % genetic and the variations, the “x” (unknown.) factor in the conclusions. To me that means “each to their own” with regard to religion. Proof of the existence of God et al given the above un-disprovable and therefore the proof is in the mind of the individual.

CJ.. the problem with admitting error to YOU is that you and Pericles often come in with allegations which are quite_offensive.

If someone places information which they believe to be true, yet turns out to be a bit different, you call it a "lie". When you do this, the only way of 'fixing' the situation in your minds is an admission of 'lying'.

If you took a different approach.. let's say "Poly.. are you sure about that 'now it's illegal' bit? have a look at this story and see if you still hold that position" aaaah..now THAT is called "working together for the best outcome and fullness of the story"

You blokes could..(if you wanted to) take the same approach about the Pastor in Sweden. "Are you sure he went to Jail?"

It's not a difficult thing to work with people of good will, as you know they are interested in truth rather than the character assasination you 2 scallywags appear bent on.

I'd be more sypathetic to your 'concern for truth' IF....you were prepared to engage on some of the very important issues regarding say Surah 9.

But because you don't do anything other than attack character, rather than confront and strive for truth.. you are really more of a waste of time than anything.(in your present condition)

Put on the new clothes of "working together" rather than tearing apart on issues you have an emotional trigger with...and perhaps we will all be better off.

On say surah 9, you could have looked at it, thought about it.. did some reading... and offered a perspective. But...nope, just the usual meaningless diatribe "rabble rousing"....

You could always take the words of the Sydney Judge when he described the 6 suspects in the terrorism trial...but..I guess he is just 'rabble rousing' too :)

<<"In essence, that meant that the accused were motivated to carry out violent activities against members of the Australian community as a whole, in pursuit of their ideals.">>

Now... a worthwhile discussion would be "Are those ideals soundly based on the Quran"? hence.. my challenge re surah 9.

"...Ive been born again with His Spirit in me 26 years and am now so used to having Gods Spirit in me that I quite often forget that there was an 'old life' when I was thrashing around in my fallen, carnal state doing my own thing...and forming my own theories..."

Cripes, that's not how I view being enlightened, educated, informed and thinking for myself! I guess some people just need to have the comfort of believing someone is sheltering and protecting them from life itself.

"...One of my pastors had a pancreatic cancer healing right on the spot in front of the congregation..."

Did anyone have actual proof of the cancer prior to the 'healing'? Medical records etc?

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CG/CG001.html

1 - "...The story of Darwin's recanting is not true. Shortly after Darwin's death, Lady Hope told a gathering that she had visited Darwin on his deathbed and that he had expressed regret over evolution and had accepted Christ. However, Darwin's daughter Henrietta, who was with him during his last days, said Lady Hope never visited during any of Darwin's illnesses, that Darwin probably never saw her at any time, and that he never recanted any of his scientific views (Clark 1984, 199; Yates 1994).

2 - The story would be irrelevant even if true. The theory of evolution rests upon reams of evidence from many different sources, not upon the authority of any person or persons...

Dear Gibo,

I'm so sorry that you classify the Harry Potter series
as evil, as "witchcraft literature."

When fantasy becomes the battleground of Good and Evil,
as it does in the novels of such writers as J.R.R. Tolkien,
and J.K. Rowling, it's called high fantasy, a developed
poetic art form which gives meaning to life, enhancing the
real world, leading to the solution of problems and the
development of characters to maturity.

What is it that has made, "The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the
Rings," and 'The Harry Potter," books the best-selling ones
that they are? In our troubled times, children and adults
need Tolkien's gutsy fictional dragons and Potter's magic to
encourage the expansion of the mind and nourish and keep
alive a sense of wonder, all essential ingredients in any
worthwhile education.

As the author Lloyd Alexander says: "Fantasy presents the
world as it should be...sometimes heart-breaking but never
hopeless, if we listen carefully it may tell us what someday
we may be capable of achieving..."

However, you believe what you want. I'm just sorry that you're
depriving your children in their development as children, as people,
and as readers. Because fantasy, of all the genres of writing for
young readers, offers the greatest challenge, and the greatest
rewards both to its authors and its readers.

Genesis! (Smart ares,s! No EVO NO! just leave it alone.):) They had smart people back then too you know,( I think back then they called them scientist,s)or was an older name used:) just the same as scientist's make models today!

Q. Can someone explain too me how,or what, in the clearest of explanations of who, wrote genesis and where the information came from.

Q. Why does he not answer us.

Q. Why are things so bad when religion is involved.

Q. What is real truth.

So, scientist's,s wrote the bible! So this must mean, man is god.

Bow to me polycarp! and all is forgiven.:)

EVO

Porky: << CJ.. the problem with admitting error to YOU is that you and Pericles often come in with allegations which are quite_offensive >>

Er, Porky - has it occurred to you that it is your record of posting falsehoods, and your refusal to acknowledge factual error, that generate the comments that you find "quite_offensive"?

I'd suggest that it's your pattern of mendacity, combined with its application to your project of spreading fear and loathing, that is more than a little offensive.

However, to your credit, you've finally admitted to basing one bigoted rant on misinformation. My reply to you is here:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2200#48680

Gibo, the thing is, the evidence clearly shows that the bible is
flawed, so why take notice in the first place, apart from religious
addiction, which exists as admitted even by BD and many others.

Ok, it makes you feel great, thats about it. Its your lifestyle
choice, no more.

Farrel Till, an ex preacher of many years, eventually realised how
flawed it was and used to have a website called Errancy. I'm not
sure if he is still going or if age caught up with him, but the
many mistakes, contradictions, flaws etc are discussed in great
detail on his website. Or they were some years ago, when last I
checked.

But even you have to admit that it is flawed, if you have half
a bit of common sense. Now take the flood and Noah etc.

Tell me, when the earth was flooded, what happened to the freshwater
fish?

Did the bible mention Noah doing a quick trip to Australia to
return the koalas, kangaroos etc?

The list is endless.

Oh Yabby, the Noah's Ark story is one of my favourites!
It is just so impossible that I find it incomprehensible that people could actually believe that it happened.

Please tell me, Gibo and Polycarp, that you do not take this story literally!

Yabby, easy-peasy: God gave the fish little oxygen masks that they used for about a year- that's how they survived.

Gibo, not just the Genesis account but there is some worthwhile reading for fundies at http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html

There is what appears to be a balanced article on Science and the Bible at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_the_Bible

Another list of bible inconsistencies at http://www.cs.umd.edu/~mvz/bible/bible-inconsistencies.pdf

And some interesting questions at http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Inconsistencies_in_the_Bible

Gibo the bible is not an historically or scientifically accurate book. Trying to think that it is could really tie you up in knots.

R0bert

R0bert wrote:

"The bible is not an historically or scientifically accurate book. Trying to think that it is could really tie you up in knots."

Of course, you are right, but because it does not conform to modern standards of historical or scientific accuracy the easy mistake to make is to dismiss it (and other similar ancient documents) as having zero historical or scientific value.

As an example, take the story of the great flood, in which a man is told by an authoritative source to prepare a boat in which to preserve those elements of the biosphere upon which his livelihood depended from the coming devastation. There are two versions of this story in Genesis, the Jehovistic and the Priestly. Then there is the version discovered in the British Museum in 1872 in the Epic of Gilgamesh. There are now at least eleven related Ancient Near Eastern versions of the story, including the two in Genesis. If that was not enough to suggest that there might be some factual basis to the story, there is another version coming from ancient India. The story of Manu and the seven sages who built a boat in which they preserved the seeds they needed to continue life. There are many similar folk legends preserved by tribes in India and Southeast Asia.

[continued]

[continuation]

These stories, although differing widely in detail, are pieces of a jigsaw that when fitted together presents a picture of a cataclysm so awe-inspiring that it could never be forgotten. They all seem to have their basis in an oral tradition that predated the arts of writing, and so must be very ancient. It has been suggested they may even date back to the sudden rise in sea level at the end of the last glaciation, about 8,000 years ago.

So, despite the improbable details in some version, there is still a kernel of historical and scientific value to be found in these ancient documents. This does not mean that they are evidence for the existence of gods, after all Manu was warned by a fish! But it does suggest that more research is needed about the state of the civilization that existed on the continental shelves of Mesopotamia, India and Southeast Asia during the millennia preceding the end of the last Ice Age. How much knowledge was lost when the sea rose, and how much was saved that is preserved in these legends?

I think all will agree we have yet to see any evidence of humans having baby apes. Therefore Genesis account is factual although I don't know if anyone knew about DNA back then or even Darwin or he may have been to embarased to stand up and public admit to being a fool.
I believe all will agree we still have seven days in a week, how very strange after all this time and many attempts to change it. Therefore the Genesis account is factual.
All will agree that it is man and not animals that are ruling the world. Therefore Genesis is factual.
believe we all would agree there are many languages in the world.
Therefore the Genesis account is factual.
And so the simple list goes on... the waters seperated from the waters; the atmosphere. The great huge animals still in the sea but the ones on the land wiped out... That God set man over in the middle east first... That man would have to work and till the ground... That we love God and one another is still the basis of our laws, not you can kill and steal and rob as survival of the fitest.
We are fearfully and wonderfully made... how amazing is the body under the microscope, how amazing is a simple seed that it has the God given life to reproduce...
just a few evidence I can think of off hand

HUMAN INTEREST....asks

<<"Did anyone have actual proof of the cancer prior to the 'healing'? Medical records etc?">>

I pose a different question. "If they did have those records... would you believe"? :) aaaah..now THAT is the crux of the question.

I suggest that even if they did....you would still find a way of rationalizing it.

C.J... the HUGE (as in, the size of the broad side of a barn) thing you miss in your selfrighteous speck finding :) is that as I pointed out, much of what you rant about (re me) is of your own imagination, or.. is couched in such offensive and abusive terminology "You are a liar" kind of thing, that you don't leave much room for discussion.

The classic example is your little avoidance on 'You don't believe in natural selection'.. why should I even bother to try to 'fix' you on such things when you simply want to find fault for it's own sake?

After all..I COULD have made a song and dance about YOU...and like a dog with a bone siezed on that (and many others) and run around the back yard growling "you're a liar" over and over, with them in my mouth, but to take such a beligerant attitude does nothing for the more important goal of working together after truth.

Re Pastor Ake Green...the story was about a pastor, who was convicted under hate laws for offending homosexuals. The story I read SAID he was convicted. But then.. Pericles comes up with another source indicating that he did not serve time, but his conviction was overturned on appeal to some distant EU court of human rights.

So..rather than point this out in a constructive way..nope.. just the usual "You lied"..when I did not.. I used a story which did not include the overturning of the conviction....and left it at that.
Then... (no surprise here) I'm accused of "Aaah..but you KNEW of that story and DELIBERATELY did not include it.. seee ur STILL a 'liar'...

Well..that's called a 'no -win' situation..so I rarely bother to defend myself from your mean spirited attacks:)

Poly/Boaz: “.so I rarely bother to defend myself from your mean spirited attacks..”

Au contraire. Mean spirited? Pot and kettle Poly/Boaz.

Unkind, unwarranted (and nonsensical) attack on Celivia:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2236&page=0#48574

Claims that another poster steps in doodoo – mean? Very. Disrespectful? Absolutely. Nor does Poly/Boaz attempt to verify claim:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2237&page=0#48461

Judgemental and condescending “Dear CJ.. we are getting there.. step by painful step... in the end, you might even understand”:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2242&page=0#48649

What is truly sad is that I did not have to spend much of my valuable time to discover these little gems of hypocrisy. I am sure a deeper exploration of Poly/Boaz would reveal many succinct examples, than these few recent ones.

As they say: “he likes to dish it out, but can’t take it.”

How does this apply to Poly/Boaz's claim of the Genesis story as absolute truth? Well would you buy a used car from this man?

Gibo,

You views on the Harry Potter books are shared by a lot of Christians but not all. I am aware that you have seen some of the movies, but I don't know if you actually read the books.

I have read the first five books and very much enjoyed them. Many Christians I know who criticise me for reading these books have never read them themselves. One Christian accepted the challage I put to him to read the books and he then told me that they were quite enjoyable, and the witchcraft used in these novels is purely fantasy that has its place only in stories.

Likewise I know Christians who are opposed to the old TV show Bewitched with Elizabeth Montgomery. Agnes Morehead who played Endorra in this show was in fact a devout Christian, and wouldn't have starred in this show if it had been about the occult. (She read Bible stories to the children between filming sessions). The main theme of this show is that a witch is trying to live a life without witchcraft, but is trouble by temptations, her witch background and witch associates. Sounds similar to trying to live the Christian life.

I respect your feeling on this matter Gibo, this is where we need to apply the principles of Romans 14. While I enjoy the Harry Potter series, I would not support the movies being shown in my Church, or if I was a librarian in a Christian School I would not have the books in the library simply because I would not want to offend fellow believers.

Thank you, Fractelle.

Pericles: “But just for the record, there is no "scientific issue" here.”
Of course there isn’t, no matter what they call it.
Creationism was given its name change, I guess, by American creationists who hoped that a subject called “Intelligent Design” would sound scientific enough to wedge into science classes rather than a subject called “Creationism”.
BTW, thanks for your clarifying post to Polycarp’s outburst on October 28. I was puzzled about PC’s reaction, too.

Polycarp,
Let me just say that I’m sorry to read that you suffer from convulsions when people simply talk about books on science.
At least you don’t deny natural selection, which is to your credit.

Richard Dawkins said in The God Delusion:

“Fundamentalists know they are right because they have read the truth in a holy book and they know, in advance, that nothing will budge them from their belief. The truth of the holy book is an axiom, not the end product of a process of reasoning. The book is true, and if the evidence seems to contradict it, it is the evidence that must be thrown out, not the book.
By contrast, what I, as a scientist, believe (for example, evolution) I believe not because of reading a holy book but because I have studied the evidence. It really is a very different matter. Books about evolution are believed not because they are holy. They are believed because they present overwhelming quantities of mutually buttressed evidence.
In principle, any reader can go and check that evidence. When a science book is wrong, somebody eventually discovers the mistake and it is corrected in subsequent books. That conspicuously doesn’t happen with holy books.”

Home tutor,
Do your children receive home schooling?
Just wondering whether parents who home school are given a curriculum and whether there’s any control by the dept of Education on what they teach their children about e.g. science.

Harry Potter books:
Agreed, Foxy and Steel Mann.
I can’t imagine a child hood without such books; books like this have enriched my childhood and that of my children.

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks." Hamlet.

>>you and Pericles often come in with allegations which are quite_offensive. If someone places information which they believe to be true, yet turns out to be a bit different, you call it a "lie"<<

I am normally extraordinarily careful to avoid calling anyone a liar, Boaz. If you can find any instance where I have done so, I will immediately and wholeheartedly apologize.

You mention the Swedish Pastor incident.

>>If you took a different approach.. let's say "Poly.. are you sure about that 'now it's illegal' bit? have a look at this story and see if you still hold that position"... You blokes could..(if you wanted to) take the same approach about the Pastor in Sweden. "Are you sure he went to Jail?"<<

This, in fact, is how I brought it to your attention:

"Incidentally, while we are talking about doing your homework, did you realize that the example you gave in the opening post - Ake Green's one month jail - never happened?... I wish you would try harder to get your facts straight, Boaz."

I also took care to include your original statement in full, and a URL reference to the piece in question.

It's a symptom of the same problem, I'm afraid. You could easily have gone back and found the same extract yourself, but you didn't.

My problem with your rabble-rousing has always been with the sheer disregard you show for the facts.

You have a habit - a compulsion, even - to grab hold of any situation that may reflect badly upon your enemies, and rush straight into print.

When the reality of this is made known to you, you bluster and evade, making the whole issue far bigger than it should be.

By your continued evasion of responsibility for your errors, you give the impression that your attempt to mislead us all was deliberate, rather than accidental as you now seem to claim.

The remedy is in your hands.

Think before you rush to judgment. Check your facts. Pause, and read carefully what you write.

Sympneology, I'm in agreement with what I read in your posts.

The issue comes when some try and take those texts way beyond what they are. Those who want creation taught as science, those like Gibo who have so misunderstood what they claim to base their lives on that they consider the opening chapters to be the authoritive historical and scientific record of how the universe and our world came into being.

They talk as though it was 100% accurate, dictated by god and infallable whilst ignoring the errors.

R0bert

I think I found god! its RObert! LMFAO. Thanks for that, it made my day.

EVO

'In the beginning God' We still only have myths and fantasies outside of the obvious. Most of the posters here confirm it. It is a pity they are either naive or deceptive in claiming that any sort of true science says otherwise.

From the smallest necessity to the
highest religious abstruction
from the wheel to the skyscraper,
everything we are and everything we have
comes from one attribute of man -
the function of his reasoning mind.
Ayn Rand.

If you're taught to believe
what you're told without question,
that's not education, that's indoctrination.

home tutor, Thursday, 30 October 2008 4:57:49 AM

I have to wonder if the people who home tutor their kids are a majority of fundamentalist christian types who refuse to let their children have any contact with outsiders who could challenge their beliefs and brainwashing. Indoctrination of religion by parents to their young children really is child abuse.

"During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. The Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church, after doing its duty in but a lazy and indolent way for 800 years, gathered up its halters, thumbscrews, and firebrands, and set about its holy work in earnest. She worked hard at it night and day during nine centuries and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood. Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry." (Mark Twain)

Using the same logic as many of the posters above, is there any "proof" that any of the other numerous ancient Creation Myths from other cultures aren't true as well?

Where is the evidence that the Genesis account IS the truth?
The onus on Creationists isn't to disprove other accounts but to prove their own.

The Bible "proves" nothing except that the Bible itself exists or does Harry Potter exist because a book says he does.

If you accept the total infallibility of Bible logic then you must concede that snakes and donkeys can talk and people can fly, or is interpretation merely selective?

Hi Celivia.
I will get to that Green River Formation etc:)
Im just a bit slow on this thread.

I understand that the Creationists are doing their best, even if they dont get into all of the pro-evolution data.

I should think it would grate against the faith to overly examine things from the evolution point of view because of the anti-Christness of the theory.

Im not in Creationist ministry.
They do a good job in supporting the Bible belief.

I dont like tags. For me tags change things somewhat.

Medical researchers see something new and they say "Oooohhh"...we had better put a name on that"...and suddenly a new disease or infirmity has a name and POWER.
Spiritual law and satans authority is connected to words and words are so important. They have power to bless or to curse.
God Spoke it into existance when he said "Let there be light".
Words of Power.

Didnt we ever get complex with tags?
I keep things simple and just believe the Genesis account is the truth...and my portion of the Holy Spirit is happy.
To me The Word is to be read and just...believed.

Like one of my elders says "just accept it as truth, and dont let the brain take control".

Thats probably a bit unusual to the non-believer...but if you bring the brain into a matter quite often you will dissect, analyse and the whole faith thing is going to end up kaput.

We should be happy to know that the little mouse in the school science lab is alive and well and doesnt need a scalpel stuck into him so we can find out how his inner parts work.
God Created ' Mr/Mrs. Mouse' and that mouse has feelings and doesnt need to die in the science lab in macabre experiments.

Originally people went straight to God for their Healings.

The charismactic movement in 2008 is back in that area of Divine Healings through the laying-on-of-hands.

Gibo: "Like one of my elders says "just accept it as truth, and dont let the brain take control"."

Jesus H Christ.

Gibo,

I do like you description of Mr/ Mrs Mouse. After hearing that I couldn't use a mouse trap anymore, although I don't need one, I have two cats.

I do beleive in God's healing and he has many ways performing healing. I have sought healing through prayer in ways you describe. Sometimes it happened, sometimes it didn't. On one occassion it was almost instant. One of the ways God heals is through giving man the knowledge to invent medicines. Sometimes God's healing for a Christian is through death. After all, these bodies we have now are only intended to be temporary. I am however skeptical of reports I hear of people getting out of wheelchairs and walking such as those at Benny Hinn's meetings. I've never heard a substantiated report on a person who was known to be confined to a wheelchair and is now walking. It is rumoured that Benny Hinn puts able bodied people in wheelchairs and then prays for them and they walk. It also needs to be pointed out that in the Bible, Jesus never healed mass crowds of people, only individuals.

On the original topic Gibo, the Creation ministry, I think its now called the Creation Research Foundation, previously Creation Science, but they changed it to avoid confusion with Christian Science (Mary Baker Eddy's cult). They have some interesting stuff, but much of it is aimed at the scientist. A bit too heavy for me. How God created this world is not of major importance to me, it's the final result.

Gibo! Here's a little story that's factual. One night I was walking down the street of my home town in NSW, and night mass was underway. Being curious, I walked in, then sat down to listen. The preacher, who thought I,d not know the code of commutation, and began telling a story about me and went into lengths about how I just walked in off the streets uninvited I guess, into his flock.

I sat patiently until he had finished, then the preacher asked me and two others to come to the front to receive the blessings of god. Fine! seems all right so far, when it was my turn for the hand to be touched on my head, and he received an electrical shock upon contact.

Well! he jumped back with horror on his face, (little did he know, it was static from the carpet on the floor ) and told me to get out with saying the devil is in me!

as I walked out, all the people in the room parted like moses with sea, and at last glance, the preacher was looking at his hand.

If that's not naivety, it was cruel and hurtful.

P\S Gibo. The world is simply overpopulated. That,s from your last post.

EVO

Gibo,

As noted in a parrellel post, the Creator was subject to the second law of thermodynamics and owing to increased entropy had to rest on the seventh day.

Herein, said Creator, might be an alien terraforming the planet, but certainly not a god.

Guess that puts Genesis on par with the Hitcker's Guide. Besides, surely God would not create a world He knew, in Ford Prefect's time, would be destoyed by Vogon constructor fleets.

Seriously, though, besides the Creator depicted being subject to the physics laws of this universe. Adam and Eve were Carbon-based. Carbon is not created on Earth or on Sol; but was a result on an earlier generation star, over five billion years ago.

In other words, Steel Mann, some people get sick. Of those, some people get better while others die. Of these, some are Christians, who are praying for healing. Do they get better at a different rate to atheists? Are they released from pain through death at a different rate?

Presumably, god prefers the prayers of westerners, as he does tend to save American christians far more often than he saves African christians.

Oliver! You dont miss a trick, do ya. SMILE

EVO

*Like one of my elders says "just accept it as truth, and dont let the brain take control".*

Sheesh Gibo, that is exactly why I am nervous of having born again
Xtians anywhere near parliament, legislating how I should lead
my life. Its exactly why we need the separation of church
and state. If you don't want your brain to take control, that
is your lifestyle choice, but keep the rest of us out of it!

"In other words, Steel Mann, some people get sick. Of those, some people get better while others die. Of these, some are Christians, who are praying for healing. Do they get better at a different rate to atheists? Are they released from pain through death at a different rate?" - Veronika

Actually Veronika, they do. Studies have actually proven that those people who believe in the power of prayer do get better quicker when they're sick. It's not proof of the existance of a God, but it is evidence that having a faith works. As I previously said, I am skeptical of some claims but I don't believe all can be dismissed as rubbish.

Gibo speaks from experience, I speak from experience, the athiest speaks from lack of experience.

Thanks, EVO. Enjoy your posts too.

Home Tutor,

"I think all will agree we have yet to see any evidence of humans having baby apes." - HT

"Hey, Hey We're The Moneys!"

The human fetus typically develops a prehensile tail at four months. Some humans are born with tails.

Six month old humans can distinguish between faces of individual monkeys, better tha adult humans. Critical for social adaptation to the troupe. Around nine months, young human primates become imprinted with human primate faces and loose the capacity to intimately recognize their genetic counsins.

Like it or not, there are primates on both sides of the ape enclosures at the zoo.

"Just tryn' to be factual and not put anybody down."

Gibo, Steel Mann

I am skeptical of a lot of so called healings. Many are counterfeit for the genuine. In saying that wherever there is a counterfeit there is also the genuine. Personally I was due for surgery a number of years ago. I had to cancel the surgery because God healed me miraculously. I believe God still heals today although many fakes have hidden that fact through their claims. Bad theology unfortunately stops people from looking to God for healing. Hopefully we will see more and more people healed of incurable diseases in the future

Dear Human Interest ,
I am not a rocket sientist just an ordinary everyday garden varity of farmer .I have NEVER seen any evidence to support evolution But the words of slick talking edecated fokes who love to use big WORDS to impress us simple folks . BUT every time I sow a seed I prove genesis 1--12 . As for most of the rest of genesis I wasn't there so for me to speculate would be foolish . My understanding of evolution is that with the passing of much time we evolve into better species . A belief taken or adapted from the Hindu religion and as I only have 1 lifetime to live I am not going to waste it debating the merits of other beliefs which common sense tells me is just vanity .

Oliver,
"Like it or not, there are primates on both sides of the ape enclosures at the zoo."
Too funny, I almost choked on my banana.

Home Tutor,
Scientist don't claim that humans stem from apes. Apes and humans just share a common ancestor, that's all.

Steel Mann,
"Studies have actually proven that those people who believe in the power of prayer do get better quicker when they're sick. It's not proof of the existance of a God, but it is evidence that having a faith works."
True, faith can work like the placebo effect. That's why homeopathy and other snake oils also work for some people.

The question is, does prayer work better than the placebo effect?
The answer is that there is no evidence at all that prayer works better to heal the sick then the placebo effect would.
If there is, I'd be very interested to learn about that.

Then, there's the well-known question, "Why doesn't God heal amputees?" when amputees pray for healing.

Steel Mann,

Studies that show prayer truly heals have routinely found to be flawed. See here http://www.infidels.org/infidels/newsletter/1999/may.html#Prayer and all over the interwebs.

I don't know what you mean by saying you and Gibo have experience. Of what? If you know people who have apparently "miraculously" got better from illnesses, then so do I. If I belonged to a religious communion, it would be deemed a miracle — I do not, so I deem it a biological process we have not yet explained.

That said, believe what you will — I don't mean to diss your world view. I just don't like misinformation.

Prayer?

If God has a Divine Plan, is He going to change it just because you want Him to? What happens to all the ones that go unfulfilled?

My guess is that prayer is no more than a statistically probable event and as effective as making a wish before blowing out the candles on a birthday cake.

If anybody has some scientific evidence to the contrary, I'm willing to recant.

Somebody once said -
"I prayed and prayed for God to let me have a bike but He didn't deliver, so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me instead".

That probably says a lot more about the way the world really works.

Hi Human Interest.
Theres always been a battle between good and evil going on; and its based on a conflict between God and the Right Way which is towards Jesus Christ and what He did on the Cross for all of us...and satan (Lucifer no more) and his alternative religions.
I dont think we can call the goals of say Islam (i.e. global control of all cultures) all that good?
I think George Bush did pretty well for a man suddenly thrust into a resistance of evil.
Good one George.
A good site on the endtimes?
"The signs that we are in the endtimes".

http://contenderministries.org/prophecy/endtimes.php

Foxy.
Creation and evolution interlinked?
I know were are in a fallen environment, everything wants to eat or dominate everything else, and I do know that things change a bit here and there (I call it mutate). Maybe God did give us the ability to think about a link between Creation and evolution? I havent noticed one though.
I think He sure gave us the knowledge in the Bible to seek Him out and to find Him... and His plan-through-Jesus Christ to save us from the final Judgment.

*I find along the great road of life, He has left little signs to His Existance and Glory.
The one that fascinates me is plan old Nostalgia...the home sickness/the longing for a better and now past time, that we have within us.
It doesnt represent a hundreds of thousands or millions of years struggle of early ape man carving out a survival on a dinosaur infested world.
Its a more recent thing and points also to a young world because its still in the mankind species and has yet to fade.
Nostalgia harkens to a Paradise now lost...Eden.
Nostalgia backs up the Genesis account of a fall of man and an explusion from a Perefect world of lush green vegitation and an intimate relationship with the animal world.

Hows that sound as we all analyse Nostalgia today?

Human Interest.
We always get healings checked out by specialists.
This is common practice throughout the charismatics. Many doctors are amazed and scratch their heads in wonder.

Foxy.
Like most christians Im very concerned that parents allow their children access to young Harry. Demon powers are real. Just look at the evil on the world at the moment. Doesnt it tell a story of malevolent powers engineering wars.
The average man/woman in all cultures really just wants to be happy and enjoy life.
Im just gald to have had an opportunity to speak about evil spirits here on The Forum.
Too little is ever spoken about it outside of the churches.

Christian bookshops have a lot of books with lots of testimones of battles with foul fallen powers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon

Theyre out there...and so is the truth about them.

Gibo: << Many doctors are amazed and scratch their heads in wonder >>

They'd be psychiatrists, wouldn't they?

Dear Gibo ,
Brown coal is formed from vegatable matter . Black coal and oil is formed from gas sheding from the core of the earth as gas and then condencing into oil which is changed by a bacteria found in the rock into black coal . Oil is a renewable resource . God created everything to reproduce after its own kind and he is the Lord who doesn't change so the laws and principles he used in creation are the same laws that govern nature . He didn't change to suit the mind of man . So if creation is truth and God is not a man that he should lie Look through a different paradyne and it is possible to get greater insight into the word of God . The one thing Adam was forbiden in the Garden was the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil for on that day death came on the scene . Words create , words deceive , words destroy as seen in the book of genesis . Jesus said it is not the food we eat that corupts but the words we speak . The paradyne was never meant to be good versus evil BUT life and death for the knowledge of good and evil always produces death .
P.S. God is the God of the living ,satin is the god of the dead [the old deciever]

The two threads[ yes the first is still active]answer why Graham had concerns.
Sorry but nothing can be gained by continuing them in my view.
However the last post in the other thread asks a question.
It seems to pick up on an earlier view that Christianity and the other 2 religions from the same roots has used the bones of earlier religions.
Those willing to research this will find much evidence exists to say yes to that.

Dear Gibo,

I agree with Belly, for me too this thread
has now run its course and I don't see
the point in continuing with it any
further, because there's nothing more
that I have to say, except to add that
I respect the right to your belief,
and the obvious peace that you feel
since turning your
life over to God.

Faith is acceptance of what we cannot see but
feel deep within our hearts.

You asked for evidence that the Bible version of
events isn't true. The evidence that exists is not
meant to confront or disprove your beliefs. There
is room in this world for more than one set of
explanations. What is important is what you believe.

As for the Harry Potter books, we'll have to agree
to disagree on that topic.

All The Best,

Gibo,

Why did god rest? Please see my early comment on the second law of thermodynamics.

When God made the light from the stars(heavens) aledgedly 6,000 years ago, had the the stars previously existed?

Where is the speech centre in the reptilian brain?

Gibo,
"...We always get healings checked out by specialists.
This is common practice throughout the charismatics. Many doctors are amazed and scratch their heads in wonder..."

Was the healee checked out by specialists prior to the healing and the illness verified prior to the healing? Do the doctors belong to a church or a religion - are they independent? Are the people undergoing orthodox medical treatment at the same time? Are these true 'miracles' or easily faked/placebo effect cures? eg back pain, hemorrhoids,headaches vs restoring amputated limbs?

http://www.pressiechurch.org/Theol_2/charismatic_movement.htm

"...There are a number of serious discrepancies between the healing miracles in the Bible and what is supposedly occurring today. Most healings performed by Christ and the apostles occurred in public places, in front of unbelievers. They did not hold healing services; they healed people right out in the open, even in front of their enemies (e.g., Lk. 5:22-26; Ac. 3:4-10). Have you ever seen a modern faith healer go into a major hospital and heal the sick? Have you ever seen one heal someone on the steps of city hall, in a shopping mall, or at a public park? If these faith healers have the same ability as the apostles, why do they do their “healings” in church buildings, in front of people who already believe? Signs are given for unbelievers; Christians do not need to be convinced that Jesus is the Christ—they already believe..."

No one has addressed Celivia's excellent question; " 'Why doesn't God heal amputees?' when amputees pray for healing". Same goes for faith healers, seem to be able to manage cancer but not a paper cut.

With all that "God Save Queen" going on, the Old Girl should out last the pyramids.

O.

Dear Oly,

Prince Charles would agree with you.

He said he was prepared to
wait for a "long time," for the throne,
but he didn't
realize that his mother was "Eternal."

Gibo et al,

Human Interest said,
"Christians do not need to be convinced that Jesus is the Christ—they already believe..."

Which made me remember a golden opportunity for Gibo and others to convince non-believers of those healings.

Did you know that:
The Australian Skeptics will pay $100,000 for proof of extraordinary powers?
http://www.skeptics.com.au/prizes/challenge.htm

Imagine all the people you'd attract to your church, and the souls you'll be saving!

Think about it- you say that there's already evidence that healings happen at your church; if the church could actually show that they can heal, say, a paper cut, through the power of prayer, your church would be able to do so much good with that money.

But wait there's more...
The Australian Skeptics offer a $20,000 spotter’s fee to anyone who nominates a person who successfully completes the Australian Skeptics Challenge.

I wish you good luck with your nomination- not that you need it...

What Causes Arthritis?

A drunken man, who smelled like beer, sat down on a subway train next to a priest. The man's tie was stained, his face was plastered with red lipstick and a half-empty bottle of gin was sticking out of his torn coat pocket. He opened his newspaper and began reading.

After a few minutes the man turned to the priest and asked, “Say, Father, what causes arthritis?”

The priest replied, “My son, it's caused by loose living, being with cheap, wicked women, too much alcohol, contempt for your fellow man, sleeping around with prostitutes and lack of a bath.”

The drunk muttered in response, “Well, I'll be damned,” then returned to his paper.

The priest, thinking about what he had said, nudged the man and apologized. “I'm very sorry. I didn't mean to come on so strong. How long have you had arthritis?”

The drunk answered, “I don't have it, Father. I was just reading here that the Pope does.”

Sorry Im a bit slow on this thread. It took so long to come up originally that I somewhat lost interest, then when it did come up, it was that much harder to get into responses. Originally it went over to a question thread from GY on Creationism.
But Im working my way through it.

Ollie.
I should think that God would want to rest or cease on the Seventh day.
Work does end.
It gets done... then its finished. No more to do.
God was finished and Genesis 1:31 we see "God saw all that He had made, and it was very good".
He had finished.

Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balaam

In Numbers 22:28 we see The Lord openning a donkeys mouth to speak to the prophet Balaam.

Its not unknown for the other side to do similar things...i.e. talking through beings.
Satans spirits take control of people from time to time, especially in 3rd world countries where they (the spirits) have more power, because men live an fear of them, and get caught up in worship of demons...e.g. putting out food etc to appease the spirits is a clear sign for unbelievers that demons are there.

*The Son of Sam killer had a local dog speak to him and tell him to kill people! Theres no speech centre in the dog.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Berkowitz

Its madness to dance with the occult or give way to evil spirits. Its such a door openner to possession.
Parents need to keep their children away from Harry Potters magic practices.

In Genesis chapter 3 we see the fall of man and an exceptionally cunning creature called The Serpent. Here he is seen speaking to Eve with The Temptation to eat the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Later on in Genesis 3:14 we see God cursing the Serpent and the Serpent losing his legs to crawl on his belly.
I should think that losing his speech centre if he had one was not a big deal either.
God is the Power that holds the atoms together with His Word.

There is no "proof" that Narnia does not exist.

Theories such as creation require proof for verification otherwise it remains a fantasy.

Likewise no one can prove that god does or does not exist.

Yabby.
Where so is the Bible flawed?

Its exactly what God wants to tell us...exactly what He wants to tell us.

Flaw comes when men put their fallen minds into picking the account to pieces.
The account was Given to simply be believed.
Its pretty disrepectful to God to question it with unsubstantiated theory like evolution.

I dont find flaw.

Guys like Farrel Till really frighten me.
I know what goes on after death for apostates. Its called the pits of Hell.

Pastor Barry Smith (NZ/New World Order expos) told a story some years ago about a drilling team that went into Saudi Arabia to drill what at the time was supposed to be the worlds deepest hole looking for oil. When the depth had been reached they noticed sounds coming from the pipe in the hole; and were horrified to hear screams coming from down below.
Its was so bad apparantly that the search for oil stopped at that place and they had to plug the hole... and simply walk away.

God was obviously revealing something for a purpose.

Try Mary K Baxter- a Divine Revelation of Hell if you want to read in interesting story.

Many preachers have fallen away over the years because they openned their minds to demon powers and allowed falsehood to touch and take root.

The freshwater fish. What about them?
The Bible speaks about the "springs of the deep bursting forth, and the flood gates of heaven openning, and rain falling on the earth for 40 days and nights"... Genesis 7:11.
There was plenty of fresh water around for fresh water fish....from above and below.
Ive seen on documentaries that there are fresh water springs under the ocean with their own lifeforms near the outlets.
That fresh water comes from somewhere underneath.

Did Noah visit OZ to pick up the kangaroos?
No.
Genesis 7:13 tells us that on the day of the rain Noah and his family entered the ark and ALL of the animals were there with them..."pairs of all creatures"...all that had breath of life in them.
Dispersal came later.

Celivia.
The ark appears to be there up near the top of Mt. Ararat...maybe two positions identified.

http://noahsarksearch.com/anomaly.htm

You can also find more at wyatt museum ark 61k
(my computer dont work all that well gathering all sites)

The anomaly on Mt. Ararat was first seen during WW2 when USAF pilots were doing a long sweeping U-turns back to their bases having dropped their loads on Yugoslavia/Romania region.

The CIA took the first photos in 1949.
cia photos ark turkey

RObert.
I will look at your sites RObert but Im happy with the Genesis account as being WHAT GOD WANTS US TO KNOW.

I, and many other committed christians, take it The Word literally and plain refuse to challenge God on it.

Love for God doesnt.

Others will do as they choose.

Sure Veronika.
Dont get your brain involved in things too much....just accept them.
Thinking too much gave man an opportunity to destroy the world.
What do we think is really happening?

*Wonderful old Science has invented ways of polluting/and altering all that existed and at the same time wonderful old Science is scrambling to save the world from what its done.
The internal combustion engine...what a mess it caused.

NASA already wants to abandon earth so an scientific elite can go to the stars to do it all over again...and in so doing "the leaving" they add to the death of a world through manufacturing and pollution.

Gibo,

Thank you for your answer, which I shall contemplate, after re-visiting Genesis, where you have quoted. But off-the-cuff, to me, if "rest" was not intended, God, would have simply stopped, after six days, without further elaboration.

The light from the stars? Cosmologists/Astronomers would claim that light was in transit from its origin stars, in some cases for billions of years, prior to, 6,000 BP.

O.

i have not seen any rebuttal to the topic

links[but not conclusive concensus science rebuttal in post; rebutting the genesis account topic posted

sure the usual opinion rebuttals,opinion underpinning their sci-based faith[in no need to bebut because we all have our beliefs]

[if you logically cant explain your faith you thus stand revealed to be decieved]

but to support the genesis account i submit[god created ;6 days ,then took long service leave for one[GOD] day,.

and we havnt seen him scince;for many more man based'days'[ok he visited adam a couple of times then went back to his ONE DAY rest]

so a day for god is a heck of a long time

also this 4 th day making of the sun[yet making the heavenly light at the big bang ,during gods first day]

spirit has its own light
[=think of it as the plan and the exicution of the plan
[like a seed unfolding into a tree]

or god packing the seed with the tree
life making life

and the making of life sans the sun

[think of this tiny fig tree,that from one tiny pre big bang type 'speck'
grows into huge fig tree[that can only fruit by having a symbiotic wasp to make your fig ,no wasp no fig]

but who gives a fig

science has not recorded an evolution in its human life span through the ages[while religions some how managed to write their histry and stories down

[whereas is the science history recording THEIR 'creation story', seems to have origoniated rather slow via some darwinian ape relitivly recently[80 percent of ALL scientists are reportedly LIVING TODAY

[darwin was rebutted by mendelistic inheritance[WITHIN the species]
that became a genetic science [while evolution remains a THEORY]

as one wrote earlier >>LIFE MAKES LIFE<<
get science to MAKE ITS OWN LIFE then dare to speculate

GET science to REPLICATE that first life[from nothing ]
then mutate#[sorry evolve it]

till then i see the words is genesis and know science for the faulse deciever of THEORY it is become

prove your BELIEF in your theory?

Dear Gibo, The Bible is our patern for life . God rested because he knew that too much work made Jack a very dull boy . Think back to Jesus in the wheat field on the sabath or the healings on the sabath . Jesus answer was The sabath day of rest was made for man not vice versa . The answer why no harry potter books is in 1Sam 15-23 . I enjoy reading your posts . God is the defender of his word . So we don't have to defend it. Only unbelievers who go to a church tend to hear the word of God , in Jesus day the church hadn't yet been established so Jesus ministered where crowds gather . Imagine the stir if a modern day Jesus conducted a healing rally at a saturday afternoon football match . The people would be very offended and offensive as in Jesus day not much has changed in the last 2000 years

*Guys like Farrel Till really frighten me.
I know what goes on after death for apostates. Its called the pits of Hell.*

Oh deary me, the nuns tried those scare tactics on me when I was
a gullible 5 year old. I believed them at 5, but soon learnt better,
not long after that. Farrel Till frightens you, because he uses
rational thinking to disect the bible? You are right about leaving
your brains at the door Gibo.

Gibo, if you check, there are literally millions of species on
the planet, some not even yet classified. Most have quite specific
requirements about at what temperatures etc they can live and what
they eat. Fitting MILLIONS of species and their diverse food requirements
onto one little ark, is an impossibility.

Where in the ocean, is there fresh water that does not mix with
salt water? What you have coming out of the ground is not fresh
water, but hydrogen sulphide etc

You might be a Christian Fundamentalist if:

• You complain when Christians aren't allowed to practice religion in other countries, but you go feral if someone tries to set up a Mosque in your neighbourhood.

• You consider a single prayer that was 'answered' during your life time as a high success rate.

• You constantly challenge the work of respected scientists who established the age of the Earth as billions of years old through sound scientific practices, but have no problem believing the word of ancient tribesman who think it's only several generations old.

• You believe followers of every other religion will spend an eternity in Hell, but still consider your religion the most tolerant and understanding.

• You believe ancient old debunked myths like Witchcraft are still relevant today and will therefore avoid Harry Potter movies just to be safe.

• You are insulted when scientists say we evolved from other life forms, but have no problem believing we were created from dirt.

• You believe we were created from dirt.

• You think it quite reasonable that a man could horde 2 of every animal on the planet, put them in a boat, and have enough food to keep them alive for 40 days.

• You hastily deny the existence of other Gods, but become outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

Cont’d

Cont’d

• You are arrogant enough to think the Earth and its inhabitants are the centre of and only life in the entire universe, despite it being statistically impossible.

• You dismiss the scientifically proven explanation of any event because you don't understand it, but are happy to just say "God did it" without proof.

• You think AIDS is Gods punishment for homosexuality.

• You think homosexuality is a reversible choice.

• You deplore homosexuality, but will vigorously defend your own Pastor when he is 'outed'.

• Even though science, physics, medicine and biology have explained it, someone 'speaking in tounges' is all the 'evidence' you need to prove Christianity.

• You accuse everyone else of ‘cherrypicking’ the bible, despite selectively quoting from it yourself.

• You dismiss all explanations of events that can't be answered with 'God did it' as nonsense.

• You think anyone with an open mind has been influenced by the Devil.

• You fail to understand that had your parents been Muslim you would believe in Mohammed and Allah instead of Jesus and God.

http://www.rustylime.com/show_article.php?id=1106

Fractelle,

I wonder what the bio-mass of the sum of two of every animal on Earth would be?

What taxonomy did God use? Is a lion diffrent to a tiger; they are both cats. Is a domestic dog different to a wolf? Indian elephants and African elephants? There are hundreds of thousands of insects species. What about species having a life span of only a few days?

What would the consequences have been on agriculture and forrests?

What about hybernating species? Animals whom eat fish as a diet?

If the water covered the mountains to a depth to 12,000 metres, most animals, including humans, would not have been able to breathe. Relatedly, where would the displaced atmosphere go? The Earth's tectonic plates would be under enormous pressure.

Dear Fractelle, My bible tells me that God loves YOU , yes YOU , my bible also tells me that my God HATES sin because it separates people from his love . If God loves people and christians can't then they had better get closer to God for he is the Heavenly father of the human race and his desire is that all be saved and none perish .Jesus spelled out the salvation message in John chapter 3 .
God condenms nobody . We condenm ourselves when we reject his son Jesus . To any one who believes Jesus didn't know who he was , I have good news for you , he forgave sins and the religious people of the day killed him because only God forgives sin and here we have the son of Joseph claiming to forgive sin . He proved his point by laying down his life and taking it up again . That is the crucks of the christian faith in a nut shell . God says Believe and you will see . Mans phelosiphy says ,If I see I will believe , In other words God you have to prove your self to me. Its called PRIDE .

*Dear Fractelle, My bible tells me that God loves YOU , yes YOU , *

Ah Fractelle, all is better now, as you can see.

Never mind the starving babies, the wretched diseases and poverty
that God created, the misery and suffering that he created,
God loves you, so all we be just fine :)

Dear yabby where did you get the knowledge that God created sickness and starvation . What is your authoritive source . Is it reliable

Dear richie,

If according to you and others, god created the heavens and the
earth and is all powerfull and able to do these things, then clearly
he is also responsible for sickness and diseases.

Clearly he had a choice and he decided to include much misery.
Unless you are saying that he did not actually have the power to
create the heavens and the earth and everything upon it.

Richie,
"God condenms nobody "
Nah, he just drowns them all in a flood when he feels like it.

With respect, Gibo, I gave this thread a fair go but, apart from having a bit of fun, I can't see a point debating this topic seriously when your reason for opposing arguments is because you don't want to use your brain.

When someone deliberately decides to blindly believe a book, no matter what arguments the opposition comes up with, what is left to debate?

Don't you ever wonder why God has given you a brain and intelligence if He doesn't want you to use it to investigate, research, and draw your own conclusions?

I hope I don't sound mean, I don't intend to, but I just don't understand why someone with otherwise normal intelligence should feel they can't use their brain or that they'd be a sinful or a bad person if they do.

About Hell screams.
Interesting article about that here:
http://www.snopes.com/religion/wellhell.asp

Celivia

Snopes is an excellent resource for the debunking of myths.

Myths take hold very easily, the following is one I believed until recently and tested for myself. Of course, if you don't like seafood you won't care, but for the lover of the crustacean, this is welcome news indeed.

"Mussel myth an open and shut case"

The habits of people choosing mealtime molluscs stick as tightly as a barnacle. Dr Karl applies some muscle power of his own to wrench open the facts.

By Karl S. Kruszelnicki

People love their seafood. We humans have been eating mussels for thousands of years.

Now, I once believed two things about mussels. First, that you should eat them only in months that had the letter 'R' in them. And that second, you should throw away the ones that don't open when you cook them.

How easy it is to be wrong!

The first mussel myth is simple to debunk. The advice to eat mussels only in months with the letter 'R' applies only to the northern hemisphere, when the months of September through to April are when mussels are supposedly "in".

That will teach me to get my gastronomic advice from European books.
The second myth is more complicated to correct.

Look at the influential cookery books of the 1960s, such as Larousse Gastronomique in 1965 and Italian Food by Elizabeth David in 1966.

These books made absolutely no mention of discarding unopened mussels.
The myth seems to have been started by the English food writer, Jane Grigson in her 1973 publication, Fish Book.

The exact quote is:
Throw away any mussels that refuse to open.

According to Nick Ruello, the mussel expert and fisheries biologist, this advice stuck as tightly as a barnacle.

By the 1970s, some 13 per cent of cookery books were agreeing with Jane Grigson; and by the 1980s, this had risen to 31 per cent.

By the 1990s, there was almost universal agreement among the cookbook writers — none of whom were fisheries biologists.

Cont'd

Cont’d

Indeed, Nick Ruello personally contacted two prominent Australian cookbook writers and asked them why they wrote this. Their replies were that the information:

came from their young research assistants who did much of the work in preparing the latest book.

It was as though once the advice had been written down, it kept on spreading because other writers quoted it, without checking if it was correct or not.

And it was not.

Nick Ruello got involved in this mussel myth because he was commissioned to write a report for Seafood Services Australia, on the rather specific topic of adding value to mussels.

And of course, along the way, he cooked and ate over 30 batches of mussels, of various sizes, ranging from 21 to 111 mussels.

Now the mussel has a shell with two halves. Thanks to some elastic ligaments, these two halves have a natural tendency to be open.

Cont'd

Celivia.

Was that all you got out of it all?...a reaction to a small statement regarding faith instead of humanist-nit picking on the overall subject of Creation?

Despite Foxys allegation that she has answered the question...the question remains unanswered.

Like One Under God has said there has been no rebuttal.

Just about all of the pro-evolution/Charlie Darwin leaners here appear to have simply said in their hearts, regarding the subject title, "Well I think its was this kind of a way on earth...and other people have said to me, or have written somewhere, that it was that kind of a way on earth...so I will go that kind of a way and add my two cents on how I reckon it was on earth".

The myth and the theory and the "I reckon" is not with the christians who have the Spirit of God to Confirm the Bible accounts.

Q. "Is there any irrefutable evidence that the Holy Bible Genesis account isnt the truth"?

Is anyone here really suited to answer the question?

Celivia if you had read the book you would have seen that it was mans choice for sickness not Gods choice ,Adam had dominion on earth and he chose to believe the devil instead of God . The choice for sickness still remains with man not God for he has provided a solution for sickness in his son Jesus for by his stripes we were healed . It is your choice what you chose to believe and God respects that right and last century two world wars were fought for that right. I respect your right to believe anything you like .I just asked Yabby on what authority He had that God created sickness andI am still awaiting his reply if you could please answer on what authority you know God created sickness please let me know .

Dear Gibo,

You say that I haven't answered the
question you ask on this thread.

If you re-read my posts, you'll find
that I have answered your question,
several times.

You however, won't accept
answers that you feel disagree with
your beliefs. Answers that you
don't like.
So why ask the question in the first
place?

Why do you need "proof"
to substantiate your
own point of view?

Isn't your faith enough for you?

Celivia & Foxy.

Gibo, Richie 10, One Under God, Polycarp et al are working overtime - they've forgotten it's Sunday and they should be at church. Perhaps posting trash on OLO beats knocking on doors - they don't have to face actual humans.

I'm just waving the white flag and going off to find some intelligent life.

Thanks Ritchie 10.
Youre comments on the thread have been very good and its a pleasure to meet you.
Keep writing. Dont worry about the critics.
Their light can be small.

Foxy.
I see what you say, but you havent said anything.
No one apart from the Bible believers has said anything.

All over the world we have people who sat in school classrooms as youngsters, under science and history teachers who spoke from books on a theory of how it all began, who subsequently believed (the youngsters that is) all of their lives what they were told was truth.

*All over the world we HAVE HAD archaeologists and bone gatherers and men with little spades and measuring tapes and plumb bobs and cameras who went in Creation and saw rock formations and canyons and sediment layers who found fossils and old bones who sat down and pondered what they saw... who then subsequently made up stories of "how it all came to pass"... who then went back and sat down in their dens and wrote books on what they thought was the truth.
They then went out into the whole wide wonderful world and they sold their books containing their "imagined truth"; and the victims of the theory... bought the story.
The victims of the theory then told the "imagined truth" to their children and got them to believe it.
Thus is the theory of evolution.

Evolution is, now, a false religious cult outside of mainstream Christian faith in the Holy Bible... a cult with with many camp followers. It runs with all of the other cults i.e. the JWs, Mormons, eastern religions, Communism believers.

Where is the irrefutable evidence that the Bible account isnt the truth?

And yet you're still allowed to vote. Amazing.

Was the ark big enough for all of the animals? Sure. The dimensions were more than adequate.

http://theshadowlands.net/noah/

...and healings and miracles.
Why not have a look at Turning Water into Petrol: Smith Wigglesworth Miracles. God heals even today. I see it all the time in our church.

I might have a rest from this thread for a little and watch for "Is there any irrefutable evidence that the Genesis account isnt the truth"...from a nearby hill.
Dont think I will see that evidence. In fact Im sure I wont:)

Its a pity so many writers here believed the "imagined truth" of evolution.

Fractelle,
I can’t wait for the rest of the article!

Foxy,
Well put, I agree with you. It’s all about faith, and faith means belief without evidence.

Gibo,
I did answer your question in my first post when I said that scientists are not into disproving things that are not observable.
BTW, there isn't an 'imagined' truth of evolution.

There is so much support for the evolution theory, and no support for the literal interpretation of Genesis, that we can safely say that the Genesis account isn’t the truth.
However, there is no “irrefutable” evidence that the Genesis account isn’t the truth because everything in science remains open to be refuted. That’s the nature of science and that’s my point.

So, to recap:
If the evolution theory true, as it appears to be, then it would prove that it is wrong to literally interpret the Genesis account of the Bible.
There is very strong support for the evolution theory from many different fields; it would be extremely difficult to disprove it.
There is no support and zero evidence outside the Bible to back up the Genesis account of the Bible.

The evolution theory, however, does no damage to the idea that religious texts like the Bible weren't meant to be taken literally. Rather, they were meant as a moral guide. Read Joseph Campbell's The Power of Myth.

That's why many, non-fundamental Christians don't have a problem with the evolution theory.

Almost everything in Genesis is too absurd to take literally.
I could give some examples when you want, but perhaps I should also take a break from this thread.

Conclusion to Mussell Myth

"To keep them closed, the mussel has muscles. It uses its specific adductor muscles. When we cook them, the heat can have a few effects on the adductor muscles that keep the two halves of their shells stuck together.

Sometimes, the heat can denature the proteins in the adductor muscles so that they simply disintegrate, or sometimes, it can make one or both ends of the adductor muscles come unstuck from the shell.

......

If you removed them from the stove once they opened and ate these mussels, you would be at risk of food poisoning.

But you would get a strong hint from the texture of the meat — it would be unappetizing, jelly-like, un-coagulated, and stuck to the perimeter of the shell.

At the other extreme, he found that some 11.5 per cent of mussels remained closed after a so-called "normal" cooking time.

When he forced them open with a knife, every single one was both adequately cooked and safe to eat.

So, according to Nick Ruello, even if the adductor muscles refuse to bow to the heat, the meat is still safe to eat.

But on the occasions when he cooked them for a further 90 seconds, about one-seventh of them still remained shut.

And in the mussels that finally did open, thanks to the overcooking, the meat was now shrunken and tough.

The best way to check the safety of mussels is to check them before you cook them.

Mussels have such a small mass that if they are invaded by a pathogen or germ, they will be overwhelmed almost immediately, and will smell bad.

If we use the experimental evidence, and stop throwing out cooked mussels that stubbornly refuse to open, we can stop wasting each year some 370 tonnes of perfectly good seafood worth around $3 million.

So use a little brain muscle, and put the mussel where your mouth is."

Just as reason and observation revealed the myth about mussells, so too has Evolution busted the myth of Genesis.

Bugsy: << And yet you're still allowed to vote. Amazing. >>

Quite so. I've mostly stayed out of this silly thread out of humanitarian tolerance for people with disabilities. However, Gibo's latest idiotic, quite belligerent utterances are offensive enough for me to respond.

Gibo, most people don't share your preposterous beliefs. We do so because we have rational minds that operate according to principles of logic that you apparently are incapable of understanding. We generally tolerate delusional idiots until they become belligerent and/or offensive, at which point some of us leave, and others throw eggs.

I think we're getting to that point. You've stated you won't accept any rational evidence, and you still demand that we prove a negative proposition.

You are - by definiton - an idiot. This is evidenced by the fact that you reject genuine responses to your asinine demands by reversion to simple repetition of ultra-fundamentalist dogma.

Fractelle - I love mussels, and exposed that myth by personal experimental means some decades ago. Mind you, it took some time to persuade my partner that reluctant mussels are fine to eat...

I think that myths are wonderful - as long as those who subscribe to them do so in 'mythical' ways (as do those who take biblical creation myths as allegorical, pre-scientific modes of understanding). However, when fanatics who delusionally mistake such myths for reality become strident, dogmatic or belligerent, I think it's appropriate to remind them of their intellectual status.

In my opinion, Gibo's ideas here are little more than the ravings of a moderately aggressive religious nutter. As with the few others of his ilk that he has attracted, he is impervious to reason. Full marks to OLO for giving him a forum, however.

At the very least, the thread's been quite entertaining - almost as much so as the "9/11 Truth" one.

Come on people ...get back on track. Quite a lot of you are using other peoples quotes or theories on how earth came to be.

Try and stay with the titles question... and not with what you think regarding other people and what they reckon.

Is there any irrefutable evidence that the Bibles Genesus account is not true?
There is none.
Theres only some vacant thought connected to this site or that, or this report or that, or some book here or there... about it might have been.

What evolutionists claim is their "discovered truth" was there long before they were born as being the results of Gods Creation, the fall of man, the Judgment of the Great Flood...

The blind leading the blind.

No wonder committed christians see evolution as just another cult.

Its all "made up stuff" from people who werent there at the Beginning.

Gibo! Your starting to scare me. Is it that your a little lonely? I can see you snapping, and firing bullets into your P\C. Mate! I done a few calculations on the ark thing and found Noah would of needed 84 oil size tankers to do the job. That's every square inch of space in liquid biomass. All thou not accurate, do you see my point.

Why intelligent people are paying attention to this, other than for amusement, is beyond me.

Gibo! have you ever thought about stamp collecting.
You can ones with little Jesus,s on it and paste them in to a book of our choice.

I could only imagine what the in-side of your house looks like. More collect-ables than the eyes can see I bet.

Whether god is there or not, its going to make no difference to out come of the world.

Q. Any evidence that the bible account is the truth?

A. Not a hope in hell.

But it does make an "A" for creative thinking.

EV

could I ask for an opimion from people on this thread .At the Townsville Marine muesium there is a fossle of a Saw fish over 60 ft long found in sandstone in western queensland . Hundred's of miles from the present coastline . In front of it they have an adult specimin taken in cleeveland bay and fully grown it is only 12 ft long .In a cave at munganna chiligo north queensland I found coral and a star fish fossel . Where is all the water and am I very ignorant in thinking it may have been evedence of a flooded land scape , Has volcanic activity pushed the earth's crust upwards .
What do you think

CJ,
“I've mostly stayed out of this silly thread out of humanitarian tolerance for people with disabilities.”
Hilarious!
And like you, I found this topic quite entertaining. I’ll have a quick read of the 9/11 Truth thread today; haven’t seen it yet but it sounds highly amusing, too.

I’ve always had an interest in cults, sects etc because I find it highly entertaining to observe nutters. On the other hand, I find it sad that these people brainwash their children, especially when they home-school their kids.

Years ago, I took a job that was advertised by the Church of Scientology (in Sydney) for my own entertainment, pretending to “believe”.
It was very amusing to watch scientologists talk to big teddy bears, and worship a huge photo of Ron Hubbard every morning and afternoon by (really loudly!) reciting some kind of brainwashing poem.
Overall they shouted and clapped a lot.

You actually had to study and work really hard from 8-5 (completely useless knowledge and work, of course) so when the novelty wore off after 3 weeks, I left.

I find it puzzling why intelligent people, like the ones mentioned by Graham Young, would believe in creationism. My guess is that they never took the trouble finding out what the evolution theory comprises- it’s much easier to disregard it when you know very little about it.

Gibo,
“No wonder committed christians see evolution as just another cult.”
Christians are only committed if they bag the evolution theory? That puts the Pope in the ‘uncommitted Christians’ group.
Were YOU there at the beginning?

Richie,
I know that there used to be an inland sea somewhere in northwest QLD and there might be some other areas that used to have lakes that have now dried up. I don’t know about the particular finds you’re talking about but I’m sure that the Townsville Marine Museum will be able to answer your questions if you’re interested.

This is probably my last post because I don’t see the point in continuing the discussion any longer.

Celivia: "This is probably my last post because I don’t see the point in continuing the discussion any longer."

Me too. I have had some fun though. I never expected Gibo et al, to gain anything from my mussels parable, after all one cannot reason with someone who glibly admits he doesn't like to use his brain. However, I do believe I have assisted in preventing further wastage of those delicious molluscs; the mussel. Just goes to show how easy it is to believe something based on no more evidence than someone writing it down and proclaiming it to be true.

I predict a mussel feast in my future.

Cheers everyone.

Gibo,

In fairness, I did follow your link, and read through the cited Creationist presentation at the Website... If the lions did not eat the lambs because they were vegetarian lions... What did the lions and all the other vegetarian animals eat, after the water destroyed all of their food supply?

Life requires energy. Food supplies energy. If there is no source of food, there is no supply of energy to sustain life. I posit that a substantial counter position.

EVO,

What is freighting is that huge populations of people, genetically no different from us, once held this and other myths, as dominant beliefs.

We, and our modern civilization, have only tiniest slither of circumstance; the application of scientic epistlemology* to techniques and the Enlightenment, in the Great Divergence; between us, and, an absolute ignorance of our true ourselves and the natural world/universe.

* Derived from Ancient Greek knowledge/philosphy preserved in Muslim Spain.

Richie 10,

I think your marine species are fossils of creates whom died millions of years ago. Plate tectonics have changed the landscape/seascape.

I don't is it the reason in this specific case, however, plate tectonics created the Owen Stanleys and that high mountain range changed weather patterns, over geological time, causing Australia's inland sea to evaporate.

Humans as history has shown are slow learners.

Many still seek the support of the supernatural,
yet the same people would not forgo the benefits
of modern medicine.

The inconsistency is dramatic.

I too am now leaving this debate.

Greatly disappointed - in myself mainly.

It was absurd of me to think that there could
be a debate with people who admit that they
won't use their brain.

Posted by CJ Morgan, Sunday, 2 November 2008 7:25:26 PM

Pretty much with you on that post. I actually think that the discussion topic was quite ingenuous and deliberately misleading. Gibo framed the debate around a question that he/she should have answered, after all, the burden of proof falls upon the creationists to prove their bible myths.

I think Gibo had no intention of open debate, there has been the usual biblical quotes to answer posts and when the questions and challenges posed are too difficult to explain by a bible quote or faith, they are simply ignored.

I think Gibo used the indulgence of OLO as a forum for preaching aggressive christianity, there was never any intention of genuine debate - and it shows!

I'll leave the last words to the late great Frank Zappa:

"...If you want to get together in any exclusive situation and have people love you, fine -- but to hang all this desperate sociology on the idea of The Cloud-Guy who has The Big Book, who knows if you've been bad or good -- and CARES about any of it -- to hang it all on that, folks, is the chimpanzee part of the brain working..."

typo:
Sorry, never meant to say ingenuous in my post, supposed to be disingenuous.
Over and outta here.

Foxy, Oliver. Yes I see your point, but if could be childish and stamp my feet, can I point the finger and Say they started it!:)

( no disrespect intended )

See you all later. and thanks everyone.

EVO

And on the eleventh day, we rested. All was not reconciled.

Human Interest "I think Gibo had no intention of open debate, there has been the usual biblical quotes to answer posts and when the questions and challenges posed are too difficult to explain by a bible quote or faith, they are simply ignored. "

This is the second thread I can think of where Gibo has opened a thread supposedly looking for evidence on a topic and then admitting during the thread that he has no interest in evidence. The other one was wanting the federal government to fund research into porn (I think). When it was pointed out (many times) that they have already done so and that the results were not the ones Gibo was looking for he pointed out that he does not like evidence much prefering to rely on his own subjective opinions.

R0bert

CONCLUSION

When I first started this thread I asked a question.
I already knew the answer to that question.

There is NO evidence that can refute the Genesis account…and there never will be.

No one here has shown any evidence...and there is none in the world.

The Genesis account stands firm as the original account of earth and mankind.
All I’ve seen here are references to other people’s theories or works.
Many hereare willing to follow those theories as truth.

I asked the question to show how easily men and women can be deceived and how a falsehood can became fact to the fallen mind.
I would also like to point out that many, and here, persecute Christians on the Genesis account …and there is no justice in it.

*All that is connected in the world today, as PHYSICAL EVIDENCE of a beginning, belongs solely to the Holy Bible description of The Beginning.

It is a God –given account of what happened.
The Holy Spirit confirms this to all Christian believers.

For a simple look at the Bible

http://www.everystudent.com/features/bible.html

**What has happened, is that “God made man upright but men have gone in search of many schemes” (Ecclesiastes 7:29).
Simply put… a number of men/women in history have decided to reject that Genesis account; and have set their hearts on finding their own theory for the evidence that exists.
They manipulated the Genesis account for their own personal glory and
satisfaction… and used what the account described, to establish their own vacant thoughts on how it all began.

Many sought grants from governments, foundations and private individuals to dig for knowledge that the Holy Bible had already given.
Many became ‘important people’ and were wined and dined as great men and women.

Over time the theory of evolution became a huge business and swept the world as a new yet false trend.
The theory became a foundation for magazines like National Geographic.
Many school teachers believed the theory and went on to pollute many of their students, some here, with the theory using false literature established by the evolution group.

CONCLUSION 2

All of the formations, mesa’s, canyons, valleys, sediment layers, old bits of bone, fossils, oil and coal deposits formed under great pressure, petrified wood, subsequent continent shifts (as the fountains of the deep opened…Genesis 7:11) and the present salt water sea levels (following a return of the waters to lower levels... Genesis 8:3) belong to the descriptions encased in the Genesis account.

Noah Ark is a true story; and easily could the animals of that day have fitted into the ark.

The Noah’s ark story appears in over 120 cultures...as stories of a great Flood and a fe survivors.

Noah’s Ark has either been located or soon will be (if you care to search it out. There are many testimonies on the net regarding the ark).

The dinosaurs are there in Gods Word, as are the dragons.

http://www.creationists.org/dinosaurs.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-dragons.html

In Genesis we also see giants on the earth.

http://www.nwcreation.net/nephilim.html

All of the physical evidence on earth belongs to the Genesis account descriptions… but has been stolen and misused so men and women can become rich and have their names in books.

'Evolution' is a type of pyramid selling.

The famous pass on their falsehoods to the gullible to continue their glorification and money making schemes.

I would be totally ashamed and embarrassed to stand before God one day with an evolution theory in my heart.
Are you one of the guillible?
Some here are.

Gibo there is plenty of evidence which indicates the Genesis account to be historically and scientifically wrong. There is plenty of evidence which has not been legitimately refuted and a small amount which has been refuted (scientists have learned more and my impression is that there have been a couple of false claims to boost researchers careers).

It's possible that other evidence will be refuted in the future as we learn more but unless your god has deliberatly falsified evidence to make the universe appear much older than it is, to make it look as though evolution has occured then the genesis account has been thoroughly refuted.

Your claim that there is no evidence and that there never will be is a lie by someone with a strong dislike of the truth. Someone else said that the truth will set you free, you are so frightened of that freedom that you cling to lies rather than face the truth. If you really must cling to deception then do so in a queit place but don't try and pass it off as anything else in the real world.

R0bert

Was this the silliest thread ever on OLO? Must be close to it.

Youre not a challenge to anything I said RObert:)
Thats why I rarely talk to you on threads.
I suspect youre one of the children who sat under an evolution school teacher...and drank it in as truth.
It was a bad start to life that hasnt improved much since then?
If you read the Bible that will of course change.

Spikey...is that your hairdo style?
Join RObert at the back of the class.

Foxy,

I haven't followed the link but I know you well enough to know you are being helpful. Therefore thank you.

There are now 26 pages. I haven't time to read them all now so this will be a brief post.

Polycarp,

(If you are still around)

Sorry if I set you off by alluding to the ad hominem. I hope that your response didn't generate more of the same but I will find out in due course when I read through the posts. I don't always relate to your approach but you do meet with much ad hominem and hypocrisy relating to your indiscretions isn't unknown.

Dear mjpb,

Thank You for your kind words.

I'm ashamed to admit that I found it
very frustrating in the end...

The point I was trying to make was that
a person's faith need not be challenged
by theories of evolution. I was really
hoping for a debate on the subject,
instead I encountered a closed mind.

I finally realized that there was no further
point to the discussion.

This thread should make for an interesting
read, nevertheless.

Spikey: "Was this the silliest thread ever on OLO? Must be close to it.

Gibo: "Spikey...is that your hairdo style? Join RObert at the back of the class.

Spikey rests her case.

After Adam was created, there he was, all alone, in the Garden of Eden. Of course it wasn't good for him to be all by himself, so the Lord paid him a visit.

"Adam," He said, "I have a plan to make you much, much happier. I'm going to give you a companion, a helpmate for you – someone who will fulfill your every need and desire. Someone who will be faithful and loving and obedient. Someone who will make you feel wonderful every day of your life."

Adam was stunned. "That sounds incredible!"

"It is," replied the Lord, "but it doesn't come for free. It's going to cost you an arm and a leg."

"That's a pretty high price to pay," said Adam. "What can I get for a rib?"

Now this is supposed to be truth? DNA! do you remember dolly the sheep.

Didn't workout too well. SMILE.

EVO

"I suspect youre one of the children who sat under an evolution school teacher...and drank it in as truth.
It was a bad start to life that hasnt improved much since then?
If you read the Bible that will of course change."

Gibo your capacity to draw wrong conclusions from the available evidence continues to surprise me from time to time.

I used to believe quite a few of the same deluded things you believe, thankfully not all.

One of the things I never believed was that I needed to hide from truth. I believed that the truth would set me free (and it did).

I did the mental gymnastics that believers who try and treat the bible as truth have to do for a long time gradually finding one dodge after another was fundamentally flawed. I used to subscribe to Ex Nihilo (the creation science magazine) until it became overwhelmingly obvious that they were desperately seeking shreds of evidence and putting the flimsiest ideas up as as evidence to support their beliefs. I had a copy of The Cosmic Conspiracy and paid it some heed until I looked into the science claims made and found them to be fraudulent. I believed other lies told within the churches to keep believers thinking that they've got something that the world does not have until I looked honestly and found it was not so.

You were correct when you acknowledged that reason destroys faith, especially literalistic faith.

A simple example for those who consider the bible to be perfect and scientifically accurate.

I have a circle with a diameter of 10 cubits.
Whats the circumference of the circle (to the nearest 2 decimal places will do)?

Now check your answer in 1 Kings 7:23

The bible is close but as a scientific measure I'd expect better from god if he or she was dictating.

R0bert

Praise The Lord Ive got a somewhat closed mind Foxy!

Ive seen some terrible things in my life...
and much of it in western culture.

Ive seen drugs go from a 'basement/jazz underworld' to killing thousands of the todays youth.

Ive seen alcohol, almost non-existant when I was at school, wash across western culture creating a generation of drunken teenagers.

The Chinese generals must dance with joy as they look south at NEW SOUTH CHINA and the uselessness of Aussie teenagers to defend Australia.

Ive seen abortion come out of the underworld to kill millions of unborn babies each year... children that that might have lived if minds were closed.

Ive seen the foulness of porn create a generation of sex maniacs and, now, sex criminals... who prowl the streets, abducting and molesting and raping and murdering.

Ive seen a permissive society let loose the gays out of the underworld and with them the spread of global disease and death.

...and you wonder why some like me would want closed minds?
We simply want to homour The Lord and block out the foulness that open minds permit.

It as the open mind, that killed a civilisation.

Soon The Coming King and an end to it all.

Dear Gibo,

A closed mind is like a closed book
Just a block of wood.

People who are mature people can laugh
at themselves, admit their flaws
and have the ability to overcome
life's obstacles without giving
in to emotions, or anger.

They don't
need to preach, because their actions
basically speak for themselves.

What I wish for you is to teach your
children the beauty that is life.

Teach them understanding, forgiveness,
mercy,compassion and love for their
fellow human beings. In that way they
will truly be loving God.

And remember above all else teach them
to, "Do unto others..."

Have a hate-free day.

You didnt respond to my last statements Foxy.

You protected yourself from them and skirted around the "open mind issue" as it being part of the fall of a civilisation.

You skirted around the Harry Potter issue likewise to keep your open mind... not re: the dangers of Harrys witchcraft did you focus, but on the fanatsy you like to live through the books:(

I guess youre part of the problem and youre not as strong in character as I thought you were.
Oh well.
Give your life to Jesus and that will change.

Dear Gibo,

I don't care to continue with this
discussion. Frankly, it's run its
course. I should have left this
thread when I originally said I would.

I have responded to each and every
point that you've made. You just don't
want to understand. Or aren't capable
of understanding.

The path you've chosen in life
seems to be a very narrow, blinkered one,
based on fear, division, and exclusion.

That's your choice. And, I can see
that arguing with you is a waste of
time.

As for the strength or weakness of my
character, that will be judged by a
higher authority than yourself. As we
both know.

You just look to the content of your
own character. Because you too will
be judged.

Peace and World Harmony,

Amen to that, Foxy!

"You just don't want to understand."

Déjà vu!
Well said, Foxy.

Im glad Im not living next door to you folks.
You'd be throwing your bottles over my back fence.

Peace and World Harmony is New Age false religion Foxy.
That will explain the Harry Potter stuff.

No one challenged the 'open mind downfall of civilisation' allegation I put up?

I guess you all know the truth of your involvement in the collapse.

Youre not a white witch are you Foxy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-witch

I get little hints in your writing that points to it.
Ive written much on witchcraft and had good training on the subject from really on-fire for Jesus, Holy Spirit-filled pentecostals.

If you are then you need to repent of it because it does actually allow the dark side access to your mind and you can end up being guided by an audible voice connected to a spirit.

Any dance with witchcraft/New Age practices is so dangerous.

Gibo, your evangelism is quite aggressive and very un-christian in nature. It's as if you are in combat, on a personal mission from god and you believe that your unchristian thoughts, words and actions toward others will be forgiven, as long as you are whoring and warring for Jesus!

Seriously, you sound quite unhinged and deranged from all the fighting with imagined demons that is going on in your head!

"training on the subject from really on-fire for Jesus, Holy Spirit-filled pentecostals."

"you can end up being guided by an audible voice connected to a spirit."

And the difference is?

RObert,
>>"training on the subject from really on-fire for Jesus, Holy Spirit-filled pentecostals."

"you can end up being guided by an audible voice connected to a spirit."

And the difference is?<<

ROFL
That's so funny, I almost choked.

So, Foxy, you're supposedly a white witch.
But hey, white witches are the good ones, aren't they? They're not into black magic.

Could you pretty please do me a favour and drop by a potion when you fly over my house on your broom stick? I'm not feeling very well today and need a good strong potion to drive the demons out.

Thank you, Foxy, MWA.

Dear Gibo,
A word of wisdom from Paul guard the treasure you were given! Guard it with your life. Avoid the talk show religion and the practiced confusion of the so called experts. People caught up in a lot of talk can miss the whole point of faith.
Overwhelming grace keep you .
P.S. unless the spirit draws people we are wasteing our time . None of us are perfect yet and our knowledge this side of the grave is like looking through a dirty window , for to be present with the Lord is to be absent from the body . to be in the body we are subject to the human condition of doubt , fear , and unbelief so don't be to hard on your self always remember God loves you and the devil hates you. Cheers
Richie 10

Dear Gibo,

Am I a white witch?

No. My belief can best be summed up in the
following way:

Once, long ago, in a world of confusion and weariness,
there exploded a new and exciting hope. A man appeared in
Palestine and spoke in syllables that seemed to come
from God. He was a Jew, steepd in the power and beauty
of a religious heritage unparalleled in East or West.

He was not locked in bigotry nor did he serve the
interests of a single nation or a special race. His blood,
indeed, was the sensitive and boiling blood of Abraham
and David, the blood that would mark the Jewish peoples
in ages yet to come.

His vision, however, went past the boundaries of Palestine
to encompass the world. His eyes looked to everyone who
hurt, and his healing hand was extended to the weak and
sinful woman, the outcast leper, the blind man who had
worn out his friends and relatives with his wailing.

Weary men heard him and felt a sudden surge of strength.
The guilty listened to him, and began again to respect
themselves as men...

And so began the religion of love..."that you love one another
as I have loved you."

Men could, indeed, call Christ God, even as I do, in a simple
and indefensible faith.

I trust that this answers your question.

I was raised a Catholic, and I shall be a Catholic until
one day, perhaps sooner than I think, I shall return to
ashes and to God. He will judge me as He must, but I
can say to Him as honestly as I say to you:

"I have tried to be a decent human being!"

I acknowledge the words of Father James Kavanaugh,
on which I drew for this post.

Dear Celivia,

Thank You Dear Heart!

Thanks for making me laugh.

I needed it.