http://theland.farmonline.com.au/news/nationalrural/livestock/cattle/article/84285.aspx

MLA and LiveCorp dragging our youth into their dirty fight to keep Animal cruelty going and even look up to those involved is beyond the pale.

RSPCA would have to be shocked and stunned as well as outraged by the blatent attemps to use our youth to defy RSPCA and Animal Welfare Organisations world wide.

The RSPCA were not surprised by the strong response from the Australia public regarding the cruel live Animal trade which has put thousands of people out of work and closed dozens of Abattoirs in the last twenty years.

RSPCA have long campainged for the live animal trade to be dirverted to chilled and caruss only.

So imagaine the response towards the obtuse move by MLA and Live Courpe who clearly desperation by the animal welfare organisation and public.

These young kids - to be called- Wait for it Ambassadors of Live export industry ambassadors: Lach MacKinnon, Annabelle Coppin, Murray Grey, Atticia Grey, Dan Koric and Garry Robinson, who are the latest victims of this industry.

As they stand smiling caught up in the spotlight of a media photo they remain unaware they are branding their familys and future children with the tag of respresnting cruelty.

This is no way to teach our youth. Already these days we watch and wonder what ever happend to law and order and respect for our authorties.

Teaching our youth to thumb their noses at any authority is wrong.

RSPCA are of course one of the most main stream and respected.

Its so sad to see these young ones being dragged in by the live animal exporters who will do anything to keep their barbaric industry going.

PALE

Sorry but I can't see a problem. I am totally against live animal exports as you know but in a democracy any lobby group no matter what they believe is entitled to enlist support.

We have to assume that these youth are old enough to make up their own minds and by the looks of this article they appear to be older kids who have grown up on farms. We have to respect their right to choose 'sides' on this just as much as youth who elect to join animal liberation groups or Greenpeace.

The key is to keep educating and bringing to the public's attention the plight of these animals which is having a great impact.

"Its so sad to see these young ones being dragged in by the live animal exporters who will do anything to keep their barbaric industry going."

Looking at the picture each of those "young ones" look as if they are of an age to vote.

I agree with pelican's opinion "in a democracy any lobby group no matter what they believe is entitled to enlist support."

Doubtless the "young ones" as you call them are all of age of majority and thus entitled to support and engage in real commerce, rather than sitting on the side lines, ranting against it and possibly aligning with the actions of those criminals who, in the name of "activism" decide to take matters, illegally, into their own hands.

MLA and what it does, is decided by the 45'000 farmers who vote
and are levy paying members.

One of those named is 22, works on a station taking care of 10'000
cattle, has been on a boat to follow her cattle through to market,
so clearly knows far more about the industry then a bunch of
vegans and veggies, sitting by their computer screens.

Perhaps she also realises that agriculture is a business, if the
bills arn't paid, the place goes broke and is sold up.

But then, thats what many vegans are dreaming of, that farming
livestock should become extinct. No more meat, milk, eggs, leather,
no more livestock enjoying their lives either.

At 22, old enough to vote, young farmers also realise the danger
that such fanatical views represent to their livelhood and way
of life. No wonder they support MLA!

"MLA and Live Courpe who clearly desperation by the animal welfare organisation".

Yes pale it does seem a post of desperation by a welfare org, how shocking for such an organisation to come up against clever marketing.

how could you not believe a family dedicated enough to the cattle industry to have a member called murray grey?

From the link-"For Western Australian producer Aticia Grey, the livestock export industry is her family’s livelihood."
Those nasty live-exporters! And now they've got their hands on the next generation, girls and all.

Have you actually considered they have a clear understanding of the issues despite their "youth", and have decided to share their views? Views formed from the inside - not from thousands of miles away, not from specifically chosen pictures - but from being and doing.

Maybe you have, hence the distress.

Nothing new here.

Ambassadors for live exports? This sick industry has ruined Australia's international reputation. This is an industry indoctrinating those with a cognitive dysfunction - the dummies who will propagate the beastly "virtues" of their forefathers.

The new order will already know how to lock a cow in a vice and rip its ovaries out.

Livecorp's ideologues are happy and the propaganda is spread by the fresh-faced graduates in greed:

“If producers didn’t deeply respect and care for their animals, they wouldn’t be involved in the industry,

"As a producer, everything you do, nearly every decision you make each day is based on the best interests of the welfare of your animals."

Yeah right and Jack the Ripper was a gentle soul and Hitler's cattle cars, first class.

http://www.animalsaustralia.org/media/photos.php?photo=Trussed+sheep+on+a+blood+drain+%28Oman%29

Sieg Heil Comrades!

Is it rational debate to call Australian farmers NAZI?
It says something about debate on this issue that I deleted my first post on this subject.
Anzac day remembers many farmers who died fighting such some do not use self control when posting.
Those young farmers have every right to do as they wish hopefully while staying in touch with reality.

Pelican

Twenty two and a life on a farm with people who were not savvy enough to ask the right questions doesn’t cut it.

This fight actually has stuff all the do with farmers...

‘They’ were again’ used like pawns’ to fight the dirty fights of people like AWB and Elders.

Also where are the red meat and Abattoir Ambassadors?

Think about it.

This could just be the biggest mistake MLA and Livecorpe have ever made. It shows clear bias...

Many calls for an enquiry into MLA have been made over the years from red meat industry and other players.

On one occasion the heads were asked to resign by members.

If you leave Animal Welfare out of this and look at what’s behind it – ITS MLA and LIVECOURPE supporting ELDERS and AWB and others live exporters with – wait for it Government funding from the public purse.

Col Rouge
The name of “activism” ...
pale replies

Illegally? Col Don’t you know there ARE no Animal Welfare laws just codes that are unenforceable?

Don’t you know also RSPCA are the lawful authorities in Australia for Animal Welfare and RSPCA have lobbied for years and demanded the barbaric trade be banned?

Yes Col Rouge it would be nice if people respected the authorities.

RSPCA and ALL Animal Welfare organizations enjoy ‘strong public support’ along with ours.

Yabby.

What a load of rubbish! You know very well we are NOT veggies and we are involved in introducing overseas buyers direct to farmers and REOPENING abattoirs. See=
http://www.halakindmeats.com/

This is going to hurt like hell having an Animal Welfare organization working with overseas buyers and introducing them to grass roots farmers.

Already some farmers have tasted the rewards of cutting out the middle man and of course once we get our funding from MLA for the Ambassadors for the red Meat industry even more will join them.

Rojo Your 100% wrong. Personally I am "most comfortable" working direct with MLA on this issue. Believe it or not – this plays directly into our hands.

AN OPEN LETTER TO MLA Er, Campainge Organisor



Dear Yvonne Farrol 10.4.2008

As you are aware I requested details and figures of funding given under the program you are running.

I am referring to the young people allocated to 'promote live animal exports' for MLA. You call them Ambassadors.

My interests are of a commercial basis. However we are also concerned with young people being used to disrespect the RSPCA. I find that very concerning Yvonne.

As I explained to you by telephone HKM Halal Kind Meats have long lobbied MLA and Austrade and Regional and development grants for the same - as in 'equal' support for our projects.

We are requesting equal funding for six Ambassadors 'of our choice' to promote red meat projects especially in our regional areas.

We are happy to inform you we have MOUs with Aboriginal Elders and Muslim Leaders of Australia along with good relationships with much red meat industry

You refused to disclose the funds allocated to your project by telephone and requested I write to you.

I Wendy Lewthwaite request you disclose the amount of funding allocated to the project you are in charge of and note you stated to me you are very proud of and find exciting.

You went on to disagree with myself that this move was not in conflict of the projects run by RSPCA.

RSPCA have tirelessly campaigned against live Animal Exports because of the cruelty involved.

There have been no less than five separate segments on 60 Minutes regarding this issue. Also many other animal welfare groups have long protested the unnecessary transport of these animals.

As it happens however my interest and reason for contacting you is of one of equal and fair play between the industries.

I am director of Halal Kind Meats and require this information to further negotiate with the interested parties.

Please reply and disclose the full amount of funding under your project including Car, Phone, Travel, Clothing Hairdressers any other form of monies either paid directly or indirectly.

All advertising costs both here and overseas.

To Be Contiuned

continued
In other words the full extent of your budget allocated to this project
We are meeting with heads of Halal Meats and Muslim Leaders quite soon and your early reply is looked forward to.

Wendy Lewthwaite
Director
HKM
Halal Kind Meats

"Copy Only Of Reply"

Hi Wendy,



Thanks for your email. I’ll get back to you shortly.



Kind regards,



Yvette

For Any other red meat Industry workers or interested parties write to Yvette Farrell Communication Manager, Livestock Exports
Meat & Livestock Australia/LiveCorpLevel 1, 165 Walker Street
North Sydney NSW 2060Ph: 02 9463 9388Mob: 0416 189 775Fax: 02 9463208
Email: yfarrell@mla.com.au
www.mla.com.au

FYI-

Dear Yvette
Would you please let me know when I can have the answer to our question. With Respect you surley must know and I have to travel asap I would like to sort this out before our next meeting with members
Regards
Wendy Lewthwaite

With regards to ME and other countries, to which Australia exports 'shamefully' these 'land creatures' alive defying RSPCA and world wide Animal Welfare Authorities there is ample evidence of marketdistortions, particulally by the way of tafiff escalations.
There is overwhelming evidence available to illustrate the complex, wide reaching web of economic benefits that the meat processing sector brings to the Australian community and economy at large, particulary within rural areas.

Lets Tell The THRUTH about what contiunes to DRIVE the Cruel Live Animal Trade?
What are the economic forces at play that are making it increasingly difficult for the meat processing industry to remain competive and profitable against the live animal exporter sector?

WHY, given the increased demand for meat in South East Asia ( with is a mulity Trillion dollar Industry" has this HUGE opening market been met only mostly BY ONE Side of the Meat Industry?
The Cruel Live animal Exporters rather than our own red meat Industry within Australia to export chilled / frozen / carcuss?



Meet these big buyers from Saudi and Asia "on your own farm "and "compare prices".

However MLA Farmers Federation Austrade wont introduce you nor will Austrade or Farmers Federation-

"You guess Why?'

*Travel, Clothing Hairdressers*

Hehe, I reckon they will be falling off their chairs laughing
over this one :)

PALE

I would really like to be able to agree with you because I'm on your side regarding animal welfare issues.

If government funding is being used to push MLA's views via regional funding grants that is a different issue and agree that this use of taxpayer money is not appropriate and, in the interests of an even playing field, highly prejudicial. On that point, does the RSPCA receive government funding? That would be worth pursuing from a governance aspect and I am not sure how the rules apply.

Animal welfare is an important issue but so is freedom of speech and democracy. Our democracy is not perfect (in fact it is a bit of a laugh really) and the citizens don't get much of a say other than a choice between the two tweedles at election time.

The kids in this article have grown up on farms and while they may not have been exposed to a differing point of view, they still have the right to support a cause. Let's face it we are all products of our environment and not all kids who grew up on farms will become Ambassadors for the MLA. Some may even become vegetarians based on their own experiences on a farm. Kids of hippies might become corporate lawyers. The argument about these kids and their backgrounds is really irrelevant.

The most important aspect of any campaign, I would think, is stick to the facts and the principles involved. I was going to add 'truth' to that list, but thought better of it. Truth is sometimes intangible - one person's truth is another's delusion - a fragile concept.

I would say stick to the crux of the debate - the cruelty aspects. There is nothing to stop PALEIF or the RSPCA enlisting their own ambassadors.

I liken it to the Rights At Work Campaign of which I was a supporter and donated money. The pro WorkChoices lobby groups ie. the Business Council of Australia, naturally supported their members and threw money into the anti-union campaign. This is just the way of things.

PALEIF in the name of “Activism” sheep shipments have been sabotaged, sprayed with pig fat etc. illegal acts designed to diminish the legal reward due to farmers.

Personally I would sue the perpetrators into bankruptcy if anyone were to do exercise the “activist” discretion in my direction.

I would ensure their future was a miserable as I could possibly make it, acting within the law.

As for “Don’t you know there ARE no Animal Welfare laws just codes that are unenforceable?”

Ask yourself why no laws, why nothing is unenforceable and get onto your state and federal politicians and lobby to have laws enacted. Until then, activism is just a polite word for “Anarchy” and not with a rat.

RSPCA if they are failing in their duty, you should take it up with them. Not those doing what remains “legal”.

“Yes Col Rouge it would be nice if people respected the authorities.”

And it is people who support your type of radical organization who think respect for authority is optional. I smell hypocrisy and its coming from the radical welfare lobby.

Dickie such hyperbole, the stuff of a withered mind.

I see you seem ti not found those references to me supporting cartels eh Dickie?

Tell me who on earth is going to take exception and react to Australia’s damaged reputation?

PETA or some other bunch of retarded offspring of wealthy parents, with more spare time than real problems in their life?

"Is it rational debate to call Australian farmers NAZI?"

You embellished the contents of my post, Belly? Why do you hide behind a mask of neutrality? It's obvious you condone live exports. Why not say so?

You are well aware that I refrained from alluding at all to the "Australian farmer." Ethical Australian farmers are not the subject of this thread. The live export industry is.

I am well aware that most creatures are eventually food for other creatures, however, I have very legitimate reasons to oppose the false and deceitful illusions perpetrated by the live export industry, which in reality is determined to mask the gruesome and cruel torture chambers, the death camps, where the barbaric industry is determined to maintain the status quo of practices which should be relegated to the past.

The live export industry's delusions of denial grow more emphatic every year as do the government subsidies and the profiteering by a greedy cartel. This is obvious when this nation allows the industry to grow animals for export which realises less than one billion dollars annually in revenue whilst the chilled and frozen meats are somewhere around the 6 billion dollar mark.

The institutionalised torture of some 4 or 5 million export livestock annually has seen enormous suffering by the victims. The industry continues to operate with gross inefficiencies. Whilst live exports are forecast to rise, the industry remains physically and economically obsolete and morally bankrupt.

The live export industry is notorious for ignoring the urgent need to restructure land-use practices and the necessity to meet new infrastructure demands in water, energy and transport.

Local abattoirs have been put out of business by the live export industry and livestock are having to endure a 3,000 kilometre journey by truck to meet their fate in some distant slaughterhouse.

Media coverage of Australia's cruelty has expanded to England, Sweden, Norway, America, New Zealand, the Middle East and no doubt other countries of which I am unaware.

Are we to regard the dumping of some 42,000 dead and diseased animals overboard last year as mere collateral damage?

Wow dickie, you certainly have talent for writing melodrama! Of course we don’t
want to let the facts interfere with these stories, as then the talent in
melodrama would be wasted.

So vegans and veggies in many countries are outraged by Australia? Umm so what?
In each of their countries, there are all sorts of factory farms. Perhaps these countries
should clean the crap off their own butts, before being concerned about the Australian
livestock industry. I remind you that the Australian sheep and cattle industries are
based on the most animal friendly farming around, out in the open sky, chomping
pasture and admiring the view, unlike countless industries in the countries that
you mention.

Yes, they might spend from 4 days- 2 weeks on a boat, again chomping food and
gaining weight. That is a tiny period of their lives, unlike the factory farmed
production from the countries that you mention.

Now that we have put various people on these boats, including farmer's kids and
others, we find that conditions are nowhere near those described by animal
liberation fanatics such as yourself. None of you has managed to mention a single
fault in Cameron Morse’s report , when it came to his trip on the Becrux.

Not everyone relies on historical archives from 60 Minutes for their information.
Yes there were some bad operators in the past. But they left the industry when it
became more and more regulated, with the highest standards in the world
applying to Australian livestock export standards.

Once animals arrive in the ME, they generally go into large holding areas, which
have shade, food and now some even have chilled water! How many Australian
feedlots have chilled water on tap for their livestock?

According to you, animals gaining weight, with chilled water on tap is torture.
Dickie, writing fairytales full of melodrama has a huge future for you!

4 million animals arrive fine, 40’000 turned into fish food instead of human food,
what is the problem? The glass is 99% full after all.

By pelican,

PALE I would really like
…
Pale replies
No you wouldn’t Pelican. You think pale are awful animal killers... That’s why you all blacklisted us because we at least acknowledge there’s got to be an alternative put on the table.

By Pelican
If government funding is being used to push MLA's views….

PALE
Err, Ah Sorry you lost me. So you mean you don’t know that already?

By Pelican
,. On that point, does the RSPCA receive government funding?

PALE
Yup 2% and WHY shouldn’t we ALL share responsibility for Animals?

By Pelican
the argument about these kids and their backgrounds is really irrelevant.

Pale replies

Pelican these twenty years old wouldn’t have the foggiest like their parents before them. Farmers are farmers and have never followed politics. Do you realize this that live Animal Export trade and Issue has NOTHING to do with farmers don’t you?

Pelican said

I would say stick to the crux of the debate - the cruelty aspects.

Pale replies

Your wrong again- This thread is to debate the reason live exports are being promoted” over abattoirs and red meat industry.”?

Pelican said

There is nothing to stop PALEIF or the RSPCA enlisting their own ambassadors.

Pale replies
What exactly is your problem? RSPCA are snowed under with funding issues and many hands on projects plus mouth to feed and vet inspect and prosecute. Just how do you think PALE could match the funding of MLA.?

Pelican
I would liken …
I`m speaking from HKM chair. btw quite frankly with friends like you the animals certainly don’t need enemies.
Don’t tell me- let me guess Libber?

These young farmers’ kids are just being used as tools by these live exporters who hide behind women kids youth company names in front of company names.

Why cant they see = These Animal Shipping Agents are the scum of the earth. Note I said Animal Shipping Agents and The Government MLA and Livecourpe Elders AWB and many others.

Not the farmers they are just being used as tools.

Speaking of which Yabby whats your agenda.

I hope I can get some latitude to reply to Dickie without childlike threats of legal action.
I support live exports, once had some doubts we did it well but know if we do not do it others will.
I totally honestly believe most Australians do.
Almost every post from yabby speaks for me.
And I truly think most Australians.
I want no war with this forums animal welfare group, I have read every post from that group and find it does not in my view best represent animal welfare.
It is posts like the one I complained about that firm my views.
In threads such as this I have seen claims that to support live exports makes us unAustralian.
Even more likely to hurt your children, some what baffled by continuing references to a thread about Labor and China I often re read it but find no reality in the claims.
My views are based on reading the forum seeing what is posted and my life time refusal to except radical views as true.
And in no way Dickie do I dislike you but self control is needed others views have value.
On my wall is your post about my last little dog , it is of great personal value.
My right to think as I wish is too live exports is not the end of the world and here to stay.
It will not bring down a government nore will it ever change the way we vote or think.
It will be better safer and less cruel but it will continue.

PALE

Blimey!

I found your last post to me nonsensical. If this is the way you conduct your dealing with other organisations I don't hold out much hope for the animals you are trying to protect. At least the RSPCA is on the right track and have some credibility in the fight against live animal exports and I have posted a link to some of their media releases here:

http://www.rspca.org.au/mediareleases/mr.asp

I believe I was polite in my post so I am not sure why you are taking offence. When I mentioned funding to the RSPCA I was trying to help out by referring to the uneven playing field and governance ie. something PALE should check out. I asked how much the RSPCA receives by comparison because I was under the impression they got zilch. Do you actually read the posts carefully?

Animal welfare is too important to get sidetracked by the issues you raised in the opening post about the newspaper article, is what I was arguing.

You accuse me of being a Libber. I don't know what that is (unless you mean Liberal voter in which case the answer is a resounding NO but really none of your business). I am sure the people within your own group don't always agree on every aspect, it would be a rare organisation where all members agreed 100%.

My commitment to animal welfare is not in question - and if you wish to detract from the thrust of my argument by using this low handed tactic, then this debate cannot hope to continue in any meaningful or rational way.

“I hope I can get some latitude to reply to Dickie without childlike threats of legal action.” (Belly)

Dear Belly

Readers might be forgiven for thinking that the innuendo in your statement above suggests that it is I who has threatened you with “childlike threats of legal action.”

This sly innuendo, as you are well aware, is totally fraudulent and dishonorable and lacks any semblance of integrity.

“Almost every post from yabby speaks for me. “

Thank you Belly. Now I know you are not a man of integrity.

“My views are based on reading the forum seeing what is posted and my life time refusal to except radical views as true.”

“Radical” Belly? Why not review the one-eyed, socialistic bombardments you have gifted us with on OLO – which induces me to ask: “Why do you speak of the speck in my eye when you fail to see the plank in your own?”

Have you not engaged this thread because of your radical political agenda and a maniacal obsession to support the disgraceful improprieties of a Labor Party which is a sycophant to the live export industry?

And should the Liberal Party win office, would you not be the first in line to moralise over live exports?

Pelican’s excellent response to a totally unprovoked attack by PALE, offers some good advice. I trust Pelican will not object to me reiterating that advice for your benefit Belly:

“My commitment to animal welfare is not in question - and if you wish to detract from the thrust of my argument by using this low handed tactic, then this debate cannot hope to continue in any meaningful or rational way.”

Dickie said

Pelican’s excellent response to a totally unprovoked attack by PALE,...

Pale replies.

Hey hang on Dickie you have no way of knowing the past posts. Some peoples agenda’s which was the result of our comments to Pelican.

In case you have missed the point which is= “Why should MLA only appoint Ambassadors for one side of the meat industry and not the other.”

If you girls want to get anywhere with this you must stop and listen once in a while.

There is the lead and the path you must all follow to highlight the unfairness of it to other people involved in the meat industry.

Of course your friend pelican can say as she wishes. However all her information is incorrect and quite frankly given her position claiming animals come first I found her comments heading in the complete opposite direction.

The problem with you girls is that you can’t see the tree for the forest.

You want live exports to stop? Good then support your red meat industry and abattoirs here in Australia and support those families to be treated in an equal manner.

Here we go again. The entire Anti pale = those dreadful Animal killers fighting to reopen abattoirs in Australia.

Well here is news Dickie and pelican and all veggie members.
You either support your red meat industry or cop more live exports.

A good place to start and a fair place to start I would have thought was to ask MLA WHY ONLY LIVE EXPORTS AMBASSITORS and Not Six for Live and Six for Frozen.

I will leave you both to ponder what other alternatives there are.

Telling people not to eat meat – wont cut it pelican- and in fact makes it WORSE for the Animals Allowing the Industry and the Government to brand everybody Extremists.

pale supports the industryOf the red meat and abattoir association and AMIEU.

If you girls want to make a difference to the Animals- Get behind the abattoir red meat industry and demand equal Ambassitors.

I would have thought at least "that much " was obvious.

Pelican

Blimey! is correct. You know very well we work with RSPCA QLD and you are IMOP a Animal Libber.

Now there`s nothing wrong with that - bar the fact you came into this thread without 'one comment' as to the unfairness of MLA only appointing six youth to promote the cruel live animal trade but not one to promote the red meat abattoir trade.?

( That in MOP is because you oppose killing animals for food at all) Which is your right.

Moving on MLA clearly shows bias and it plays right into the hands of Animal Welfare organisation everywhere.

As for RSPCA yes they also have the handle with care project which I am sure you are well aware of. I sugest you read the following links if only to understand whos doing what.

http://www.rspcavic.org/campaigns_news/campaigns_handle_with_care.htm

This in particular has a clear link to what is happening( again ) within the industry. Read it to see to connections between the industry and those who buy donations and votes for their parties leaving moral obligations aside and endorsing barbaric cruelty.=

http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/rrat_ctte/meat_marketing/tor.htm

However above all pelican ask yourself why you cant see the unfair promotion over live to chilled?

Regardless of what industry is involved it is beyond the pale that as a response to the Handle with care project they 'just' promote LIVE.

There are plenty of familes in the abattoir business within this country and red meat industry that need support.

Again I say we are wearing our HKM cap and again we say this is totally unfair to support one side of the industry but not the other.

I am not on this thread to debate the live export issue- rather than highlight the utter unfairness to those in the red meat industry.

I wasn't going to bother posting on this topic again given the intentional misreading of my argument by PALE but I can't ignore outright lies.

PALE said: "Hey hang on Dickie you have no way of knowing the past posts. Some peoples agenda’s which was the result of our comments to Pelican."

PALE where have I ever said that I don't eat meat or am a vegetarian? Feel free to search my posts and paste the links here. As far as other OLO discussions go, I have only ever said I buy pasture fed meat (organic where possible), am against intensive feedlots and live animal exports. We have a duty of care to animals to farm them as humanely as possible so that their lives are not ones of suffering.

In other threads (that I can remember) where you and I posted on animal welfare issues we were in pretty much agreement so I don't know where you are coming from. Is there more than one person posting as PALEIF? If so, this might explain the confusion.

[Yabby must be loving this :)]

dickie
Feel free to use the phrase at will. :)

Sigh!!

I posted the above post before reading PALE's new post - I just had a look at the PALE website and it appears you are only affilitaed with RSPCA QLD.

PALE said: "However above all pelican ask yourself why you cant see the unfair promotion over live to chilled?"

Of course I don't like MLA advertising live over chilled, but they have a right to advertise what they like. I have faith that the public will see right through it. Give them some credit.

PALE you contradict yourself - you accuse me of being an animal libber but then have a go at me for defending MLA's right to freedom of speech. I have no problems with you, animal libbers or MLA promoting their causes or any other causes.

There are many things I don't like or agree with but I will fight for the right of others to disagree with me. We are not a dictatorship (yet).

Firstly Pelican

apoligise. Mistook you for the person. Always calling us Animal Killers. Maintain our interests in the red meat industry were to make money out of 'killing'
animals.
again- sorry.

Yabby might be laughing but we are laughing more:) In all his posts for yonks hes managed to impress one person Belly . Its hilarious.
Good on you Yabbs, Well done !

So Yabby you agree then do you? Six Ambassitors for the live shipping agents and NONE for the Australian Red Meat and Abbitor associations?
No wonder the Abattoir associations have been screaming for an enquiry into the MLA.

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:qVHR9QIqFuoJ:www.mla.com.au/NR/rdonlyres/13D83066-AD5C-4348-A4BE-C10AAFF439C6/0/CorporateGovernancestatement200506.doc+duties+of+mla&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au

MLA are NOT to Favour One or the Other. "Live or Red Chilled meat" Our public funds go into it.

MLA code of business conduct and ethics:=

MLA code of business conduct and ethics Message. he,he=

MLA carries on business honestly and fairly.

MLA is committed to providing a free from harassment, prejudice and favouritism, where personal development is encouraged, equal opportunity is fostered?

Our members and industry stakeholders: MLA is committed to providing value to the "red meat" industry by carrying on business in a sound and effective way and clearly, openly, accurately and honestly reporting on the company's operations to our members.

Page 2
Our customers: MLA is committed to conducting business honestly, with integrity and providing our customers –

Our communities: MLA is committed to earning and maintaining the support of the communities which provide "our license to operate", "including Peak Councils,Government" and the community at large. Code of Business Conduct and Ethics :)

The standards set out in this Code cannot anticipate every situation which may pose a legal, ethical or moral question.

Managers and employees are expected to exercise sound judgement when evaluating an issue of business conduct.?

The standards go beyond compliance with laws and regulations and embrace MLA’s values and commitments to its stakeholders.?

1) Openness, Integrity and Fairness MLA’s

Umm , now all cast you eyes to this pls
http://www.parliament.wa.gov.au/hansard/hans35.nsf/NFS/947c9d2bdc1db86748257081002561f6

Ring any bells? (not You Belly }as you said just follow old Yabbs.
spoken like a real union man= hilarious:)

Hi all
PALE, thanks for this, I wasn't aware of this thread. I thought Pelican's arguments were well reasoned and expressed. Certainly these people have the right to express their opinions, but they should not be paid taxpayers' funds to do so, if that is the case and it seems clear that they probably are. Furthermore, if you express your opinions in the public arena, you must expect that others with conflicting views will express them too. One point worth mentioning is that Australia has no provision in the form of a Bill of Rights for freedom of speech.

PALE is correct also in believing that there should be some form of "level playing field". If one industry sector receives largesse from the government then so should others (particularly struggling ones like the meat preocessing sector. The Howard government set the trend for that when Howard bailed out his brother-in law's textile company in the Hunter Valley.

There are in fact State animal protection laws, but farmers (and live exporters) are protected from them by "Codes of Practice" which govern (and I use the term loosely) the unfortunate animals who are determined to be for "food". Compliance with these appalling documents can form the basis of of a defence against acts of cruelty (which would most certainly attract prosecution if they were practiced upon "companion" animals. In most states the RSPCA enforces animal protection laws (although Queensland, I think, does not deal with farmed animals, so far as I know; correct me if I'm wrong).

We have just seen a live exporter escape justice in WA through an inconsistency between Commonwealth and State law (s109 of the Constitution) and disgraceful interference in judicial process by a WA government that proves it.

Cheers
Nicky

Hehe, you girls crack me up, you really do. You are so badly informed
that you could not organise a pissup in a brewery :) Do none of
you ever read the MLA annual report?

Promotion of red meat has around 57 million dollars allocated to
it.

Promotion of live exports has 600'000$ allocated to it.

So would you prefer if an even amount was spent on both?

Think carefully now Gertrude, before you answer this one :)

Yabby, I'm afraid that I don't consider MLA's annual report as part of my essential reading; I very rarely have time to read fiction.

And naming a kid after a breed of cattle indicates seriously dysfunctional parents, which could explain where these yuppies are coming from. You can br greasy and grubby and still be a yuppie; not all yuppies are clean. sadly. Perhaps this woman thinks that the smell of mature is fetching, who knows? She doesn't have a whole lot between the ears, reading her "stories".

For essential reading, Yabby, a change in propaganda might be in order for you, since you are only capab;le of quoting one side of it without reading anything between the lines.

Cheers
Nicky

Can verifiably truthful information be classed as propaganda, because the way I see it MLA and the like must deliver accuracy able to withstand the nit-picking scrutiny of numerous nay-sayers (whose own material is questionable to say the least).

I would truly giggle if someone suggested that Animals Aust and similar could withstand equal scrutiny. In truth I'm not sure anyone really expects them to.

Nicky, you make my point for me. You don't have the foggiest about
what MLA are up to or how they spend their money, you know nothing
about livestock, yet you want to sit back and pass judgement on
things about which you don't understand or it seems, have much
information about. If its not on the AA website, its not part
of your bible reading, it seems.

You are in the wrong career sweetheart. You should have been a
policewoman, you could spend all day writing speeding tickets
and don't need much intelligence to do it either.

Gertrude is so badly informed that she did not even know what
% of cattle are exported live from Qld. She was out by a factor
of something like 6 times, IIRC. Then you girls think that the
public should take the information that you quote as gospel, with
any kind of seriousness? You must be kidding!

Frankly this lady who is doing her part in running 10'000
cattle, sounds like she makes you lot look like schoolgirls :)

Yabbs.

MLA LIVECORPE DEFY RSPCA contiuned

Livecourpe and MLA ‘are’ public funded.

http://www.mla.com.

How we are funded=

MLA -The Federal Government also contributes a dollar for each dollar we spend in R&D.

collected by federal government.


Cattle and calves:
Cattle $5.00 per head
Grain-fed cattle $5.00 per head
Goats
Goats 37.7c per head

Visit the Government Central office (Canberra): 1800 020 619


As a Red Meat and Abattoir operator I am afraid we will have to ask for Yvette to stand down and also bring on MLA LIVECORP Department of Trade Enquiry. Too much conflict of interest.

>
http://www.livecorp.com.au/downloads/Magistrate's%20ruling.pdf

Australian livestock export industry applauds Magistrate’s ruling
Friday 8 February 2008
The Australian livestock export industry has applauded the decision handed down by Magistrate Crawford today clearing Emanuel Exports and its Directors of all charges.
http://www.livecorp.com.au/downloads/Magistrate's%20ruling.pdf

The verdict also highlights the need for legislation to provide national standards and regulation for the handling and welfare of animals for export, and ensure legislation cannot be used to bring about a case such as this in the future. ?

The national implications of the Emanuel case are so significant that the Australian Farmers’ Fighting Fund (AFFF) provided the financial resources for the Emanuel defence.

"IN OTHER WORDS WE HELPED PAY FOR IT!"

Yvette Farrell, MLA/LiveCorp Livestock Export Program Ph: 0416 189 775

www.mla.com.au (follow ‘hot topics’ from MLA homepage)
www.livecorp.com.au



Yvette Farrell, communication manager, MLA/LiveCorp Livestock Export Program
(02) 9463 9388 0416 189 775
Anna Inglis, Wilkinson Media, 02 8001 8888 or 0414 256 919

Australian livestock export industry applauds Magistrate’s ruling
Friday 8 February 2008
.

Yvette Farrell, MLA/LiveCorp Livestock Export Program Ph: 0416 189 775=
Your voice and political
influence is louder and
more listened to than
ours. Help us to help each
other by ensuring that at
every opportunity the live
export trade is promoted
as an essential part of
your business.
Together we will be able
to convince the
government and public of
the achievements of the
last six years and our
desire to continue to.

She Cant be too good with figures either Yabbs - STILL waiting!

*collected by federal government.*

Exactly Gertrude, collected by the Govt, levies paid for
by farmers. Now for once in your life get off your little
butt and learn about what MLA actually do, where the money
comes from and where it is spent!

As this thread shows, you don't have a clue what is actually
happening in agriculture. The Gold Coast lifestyle is
clearly too isolating from the real world that the rest
of us live in farming.

I make my point again. 57 million for promotion of meat,
600 thousand for live exports promotion. What is your
problem?

Time to leave the thread again I only came in because of the insult needless heedless insult.
PALE finds much to laugh at me because I think ,truly think as most do yet pelican has become just one of those who have suffered for free thought.
Rational people surely do not think animal welfare is served by such as PALE?
Post after post wanders into a lost land of turning more away from their wants and wishes than toward it.
Count the insulted posters in OLO just because they questioned one group, elections? 4 short months ago count them pale you had no more influence over a different government.
Yet you truly think this one is evil because they are not hearing you?
Get used to it they are here for a long time Socialistic?
My question was to be can you truly be so far from reality? but you answer it every day here in this forum yes indeed you can.

"Promotion of red meat has around 57 million dollars allocated to it.

"Promotion of live exports has 600'000$ allocated to it.

"So would you prefer if an even amount was spent on both?

"Think carefully now Gertrude, before you answer this one :)" (The Mouth)

a) Total Annual Revenue for chilled and frozen meat (exports only) = $6 billion
Estimated total Annual Revenue for domestic sales of red meat ........$5 billion?
Total promotional allocation for red meat (domestic and exports) = ...$57 million

b) Total Annual Revenue for live exports approx. $700 million
Total promotional allocation for live exports = .....$600,000

"Hehe, you girls crack me up, you really do. You are so badly informed
that you could not organise a pissup in a brewery :)"

What a charming man - and such a comedian but could the Mouth even LOCATE a beer in a brewery and is he so "badly informed" that he can't evaluate an expenditure and income sheet. Even a pre-primary student could see which of the two is the export earner.

In any event, where are his links to confirm his figures? I've yet to see him substantiate anything. It's just more dribble, dribble, d.r.i.b.b.l.e ........yawn - so tedious even my leg's fallen asleep.....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Hi all
Dickie, I'm with you. Yabby simply resorts to insults - and gender based ones at that - when no-one falls into line with his propaganda. Having worked extensively as a Director, I can assure you that you can make an Annual Report say anything you want it to say, and this is particularly true of LiveCorp/MLA because of the public disapprobation for what they do. That is the other reason why I would not waste my very expensive time on MLA's Annual Report. They are written for shareholders and saay what shareholders want them to say.

I don't know that it takes too much intellectual power to "look after" cattle either, in areas like the Pilbara they seem to tend to mostly look after themselves, as I understand it. Unless they are particularly special cattle, perhaps?

At the end of the day, the reality is that we all know gross animal abuse when we see it. It is as simple as that. They have had decades to fix it, they keep claiming that they have (although now they refer to only "making improvements"), and get caught out every time - yes, every time - there is an investigation. Now, Yabby, and Belly (Belly, I hope I haven't insulted you and I'm sorry to see you go even if we are poles apart in our views), there is just no answer to that, is there? If you want to give it a try, please try to keep it nice. And a bit relevant.

Cheers
Nicky

Interestingly dickie both expenditures return similar results (greater than $100) per dollar spent. If you can differentiate between export and domestic expenditure within the $57 million amount we can compare with greater scrutiny.
I trust you weren't refering only to the obvious million/billion bit.

Nicky, "Having worked extensively as a Director, I can assure you that you can make an Annual Report say anything you want it to say"

You wouldn't be putting that experience to good use here would you?

My unfettered apologies to the live-export industry, they actually generate over $1000 dollars per MLA promotion dollar compared to $200 on the export/dometic spending.

Up too late - poor maths.

Whats your excuse dickie?

*Having worked extensively as a Director, I can assure you that you can make an Annual Report say anything you want it to say*

Wow Nicky, so honesty apparently did not matter to you, when you
were a director? Were the auditors dodgy too?

MLAs figures are audited, perhaps next you will accuse them of
being corrupt, as you did with the WA Govt. Everyone of course is
wrong except Nicky!

Dickie, the MLA annual report is sent out to 45'000 members in hard
copy. If people want to critisize MLA and how it spends its money,
before they go and waste the staff's time, the least they could
do is inform themselves.

I have no idea if their annual reports are online. Unlike you,
I have various sources of information, other then your google bar.

Informed critics, they are fine. Loudmouthed ignoramuses just
waste everyone's time. What we are managing to show is that
when it comes to accurate facts, the animal libber lobby just
don't let those interefere with their stories.

Nicky only back to say you have never said anything to offend me.
Rarely do we agree but I do not think free debate is possible here with some insults?
Well its two way here but all of us together need to remember our views are not the only ones.
Still hold the view live exports will be with us forever and is not evil.
Enjoy the thread might start one on mulising sheep!

"Touche" Nicky

And wouldn't one love to inspect the simple chart of accounts, the trade creditors and debtors files etc which are the fundamentals for the financials? This is where the naked truth lies.

Our federal government appears impressed with MLA's performance and have kindly donated some $37 million of taxpayers money for the current year.

"Loudmouthed ignoramuses just waste everyone's time."

The only accurate claim the Mouth has ever submitted. For those who fudge figures, I remind them that animal mortalities at sea have cost this arid nation dearly - particularly Western Australia, the largest of the live exporters and home to the Mouth.

Vegetation cover, which provides a protective layer for land, decreased in 64% of monitored bioregions in WA's South West between 1996 and 2004. Vegetation cover decreased in 22% of monitored bioregions in the rangelands over the last decade.

The S/W of WA is now officially listed as one of the world's environmental hotspots.

Yet this consortium of greed have grown over 2 million "fit" and "healthy" animals which were then dumped overboard to a watery grave.

Does this figure include the 67,488 sheep which were abandoned on the ship Uniceb - where these sheep burnt to death, no doubt writhing in agony on a vessel which took eight days to sink?

Two million animals have vastly contributed to the depletion of our water resources, land encroachments, soil degradation and energy resources including transport before being tipped into the sea.

These animals, which have suffered great stress, have contributed significantly to an increase in greenhouse gases and the unrestrained pollution from pharmaceuticals, chemicals and pesticides which the industry used to make them "fit" and "healthy" for drowning.

This industry, after being exposed for violating defenceless animals, now spruik about their endeavours towards animal welfare. However, included in the MLA's A/R site , is a large brag about the "successful" outcome for Emanuel Exports who were found guilty of animal cruelty but not prosecuted.

This consortium foolishly believes that this case is now au fait accompli - a win for the sadists.

Dream on my "loudmouthed ignoramuses".........

MLA Structure-the worst of both worlds.=

http://www.austbeef.com.au/Content.asp?regID=15403&id=41613

ABA Goals 2000
1) MLA to be made into a genuine producer company with a regionally elected board, and a full database of levy payers.

2) Identify cow beef with 'truth in labelling' legislation.

4) Meat inspection costs returned to government, as is the case with our overseas competitors.

In return for this large handout of industry money, CCA is bound to produce a business plan, to account to government and the levy payers for the use of the money. As at 23/2/2000, they had not done so.

Meat and Livestock Australia which replaced the Australian Meat and Livestock Corporation by the then Minister John Anderson restructure has left an unworkable, costly mess. An undemocratic, compulsory funded ($100 million) corporate structure that has far less accountability than the old AMLC.
Only 10,000 of 180,000 meat levy payers are 'members of the company'. It has policy decided by RMAC-representing less than 15% of levy payers.

"THE COMPANY IS UNIQUE IN HAVING NO IDEA WHO ITS STAKE HOLDERS ARE."

The initial Board of MLA were selected on political and geographic grounds in a closed shop manner by a Peak Council based selection committee, 8 of the 10 appointees are producers, 4 are former Peak Council associates.

This made a mockery of 'selection for skills'.
Future Boards to be selected by a panel of 9 - 3 appointed by the board itself, 3 by peak councils and 3 are elected by producers at an AGM. Few would regard the process as anything but a sham.

At the first meeting of levy payers since 1997(held at Albury in Nov 1999) ABA had organised some 150 MLA members' to move for the abolition of the power of veto.

This veto allows for each Peak council to have over a 75% vote of members necessary to alter the MLA constitution.

ABA and allies scored 52% of the vote. An easily organised ALFA vote (one member alone had 250,000 votes) was against us.

Cattle Council and ALFA announced that they would use the veto if we got 75%.



TBC

Continued-

ABA will continue to fight for an elected Board for MLA, a removal of the veto power which is an insult to the intelligence of all producers and the right for every producer to have an automatic vote in line with his stock numbers.



ABA maintains that elected board members are there to protect producers' levy money from the sharks that have fed on $1.4 billion of it since 1984 with little return.

Talk of selecting on expertise is hypocritical in view of the present board and the past incompetence. Expertise is something that is called on when necessary-commonsense is the quality we look for.

MSA currently accounts for less than 1% of Australian production as supermarkets and large abattoirs fail to take up the highly complicated system, despite the huge money spent on promoting it. ABA continues to advise MLA with little response.
END

Looks like Nothings Changed A copy only part of FYI= Reply From MLA

Dear Wendy,



Thanks for your email and your interest in our ambassador program. It is a program we are very proud of, and I must confirm that contrary to your comment, the young members of our industry are not - and have not - been used to disrespect the RSPCA.



Your letter stems from a commercial interest and a desire for development grants. The Livestock Export Program is an MLA and LiveCorp joint program which focuses on improving animal welfare, market access and industry capability within the livestock export industry.

I suggest you contact your industry or related groups to find out if any grants or development programs exists for the halal or red meat industries.



Regarding your demands for full disclosure of expenditure ...
This budget – which is tiny compared to that of animal activists groups - has contributed to enabling us to launch the program, and the time of those involved has been volunteered.

END

We also spoke with Michael Finucan <mfinucan@mla.com.au> today requesting email contacts for the six ambassitors - even one.

MLA refuse to supply public with contact details to ask questions!

hilarious. Nothing has changed.

Hi all
Dear me, Yabby, you do jump to conclusions. Just because I have worked as a Director and know that certain things are done does not mean I indulge in such behaviours myself - that is the difference between people like me and people like you; it's called ethical standards.

Dickie, you are absolutely right as always.

PALE, it will be interesting to see if you get any sense out of Annabelle Coppin; if you even have a whiff of animal welfare about you I suspect that you won't. As for the MLA idiot, does she seriously believe that animal welfare groups have MONEY? Another one who believes bizarre propaganda, but I don't think you were ever going to get the facts from her. And you certainly won't from Yabby because he doesn't know them; he just believes all he reads from MLA and LiveCorp because it assuages his conscience.

Animal Liberation (NSW) has just released film footage of a Victorian slaghterhouse, and it proves Yabby right about one thing - Australians can be just as bad as the butchers of the Middle East. There is ample and extended footage of electric prods being rammed up the anuses of sheep who have nowhere to move to, and at one point, a distressed, struggling sheep is left in a stun box over the killing floor while the workers all bugger off to lunch for 30 minutes. It is senseless, gross animal abuse. Yabby probably rhinks that all that is just fine. And who cares? They're only sheep, aren't they?.

Cheers
Nicky

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT60wBShF68

Hehe, what a pair of comedians we have in Dickie and Nicky, more like Laurel
and Hardy :)

You don’t like the court decision, the magistrate and Govt must be corrupt. You
don’t like the MLA figures, they must be fudged. You have never even seen
the figures, never even read an MLA annual report, so you frankly don’t have
a clue. Meantime one of the Ernst and Young partners signed off on those
figures. Next you will be claiming that he was corrupt or duped. You fanatics
will claim any old thing!

Farming in the SW it seems, is considered evil by you lot. Perhaps we can all
just go to the coast, frolic by the seaside and eat Chinese imported food.
Meantime once a year, the odd lightning strike will just burn the lot in the middle
of summer, much as happens on conservation land.

Universities of course will fund all this, by ripping off overseas students. For the
mining industry would be closed down too, for environmental reasons. Hey,
go on, float on the clouds of fairyfloss if you wish, but don’t expect anyone to
take you seriously .

*Yabby probably thinks that all that is just fine.*

Now where have I ever said that? I have been highlighting time after time that there is plenty
of cruelty to animals going on right here in Australia and that it is ignorant and racist to say
that all is well in Australia and all is evil in the ME. Now despite all the education that you
think should mean instant success, clearly you are mistaken, which has been my point all along.

But you lot are so obsessed with the live trade, that you have forgotten as to what
is going on around you, right under your noses.

BTW there is big money in animal activism. Last time I looked, Peta were collecting well over 20 million bucks a year by rattling the tins. How much do
AA collect a year?

http://www.austbeef.com.au/Content.asp?regID=15403&id=41613
Nicky

I posted two comments providing some info to be examined. I hope you get time to read the above link.

Only by supporting the ABA will we get some results to force a closer look and possible enquiry into mla.

MLA have incredable powers including along with AQIS a say over accreditations for export.

It travels all the way through to councils and regional areas Australia wide.

Of course the link you posted is upsetting but I am sure yabby will be happy to divert this thread to that if you allow it.

Abattoirs are of course cruel places so lets not kid ourselves.
However the alternative to that is live exports which as you know is far worse.

We can control standards at plants improving animal welfare but only by animal welfare minded people getting involved within the industry.
That has always been pales argument against other approaches but that how we can achieve the only sensible results. Video cameras throughout the plants anmd managers who care.

Yes I did email your lady but not from a animal Welfare point- simply telling the truth and expressing interest for supply of stock and reopening plants.

Well I dont think the Ambassidors will behaving any effect on the public considering I am told by MLA they are not having contact with public.

Also in contact with MLA red meat re promoting chilled etc.

Its really frustrating to have invited bidda and others to meetings with Muslim Leaders to discuss Animal Welfare and Halal Slaughter not to recieve a reply.

It makes one wonder when you are dealing with a whole bunch of ciber writers. People dont want to attend meetings to move things along.

From MLA Ambassitors right through to other animal welfare people.

I am just begining to wonder why I even bother waisting my time and my life.

btw What are AL doing about the low life and his manager with the sheep?

Just give me the word and send some not so polite boys might like to pay them a visit

"I have been highlighting time after time that there is plenty of cruelty to animals going on right here in Australia and that it is ignorant and racist to say that all is well in Australia and all is evil in the ME." (The Mouth)

Can anyone enlighten me please? Who has been telling the Mouth "that all is well in Australia?" And what has he done about animal cruelty in Australia apart from exacerbating it?

Just why does the Mouth think we are debating these threads? For this narcissist's benefit I reiterate, these threads are to alert readers to the Australians who commit heinous acts of cruelty on Australian animals. Many of these sadists then export these animals on the ships of death for them to endure further atrocities committed by other barbarians.

And who better to know this than OLO's resident live sheep exporter - the Mouth, who giggles insanely (ie. "hehehe.") prior to his next batch of lies?

"You have never even seen the figures, never even read an MLA annual report, so you frankly don’t have a clue."

Really? More lies. I have read the MLA's A/R:
http://www.mla.com.au/HeaderAndFooter/AboutMLA/Corporate+documents/Annual+report.htm

And to reinforce my opinion of the MLA , here's what Pale's link (the Australian Beef Association) has to say about their covert operations:

http://www.austbeef.com.au/public/PropertyProductDisplay.asp?PID=N10450&RURL=/postings/15403/news/10450.html&WAID=&WRID=1540

http://www.austbeef.com.au/public/PropertyProductDisplay.asp?PID=N10599&RURL=/postings/15403/news/10599.html&WAID=&WRID=15403

http://www.austbeef.com.au/public/PropertyProductDisplay.asp?PID=N10624&RURL=/postings/15403/news/10624.html&WAID=&WRID=15403

http://www.austbeef.com.au/public/PropertyProductDisplay.asp?PID=N10613&RURL=/postings/15403/news/10613.html&WAID=&WRID=15403

http://www.austbeef.com.au/public/PropertyProductDisplay.asp?PID=N10478&RURL=/postings/15403/news/10478.html&WAID=&WRID=15403

And I see the cruel McGauran was up to his neck in it as well.

Pathological liars like to bend the truth and don't they take comfort in it? The ethics-free Mouth ("heheheh") needs help - pronto!

Any bids here? We could swap him for a jumping flea.

*Really? More lies. I have read the MLA's A/R:*

Good to see that you have found the link Dickie. I remind
you that you have only just found it, or you would have not
needed to ask me for it earlier, when I mentioned the figures.. So clearly
you had not read the annual report at the time.

As to your habit of posting pages of links, that is more a sign
of obsessive behaviour, common amongst fanatics

"I remind you that you have only just found it (A/R) or you would have not needed to ask me for it earlier, when I mentioned the figures.."

Pathological liars cannot help themselves and the Mouth will twist the facts to achieve the desired results. Pretty sick eh?

This is what I said:

"In any event, where are his links to confirm his figures?"

So where are the links? Or is the claim simply another lie - another fantasy cooked up by a deranged mind, eh?

BTW I wonder how that poor old wether's going? You know the one that's tied to his bedpost, wearing lipstick and a nightie?

*So where are the links? Or is the claim simply another lie - another fantasy cooked up by a
deranged mind, eh?*

And I remind you Dickie, that I mentioned that I had the figures
from the annual report. Clearly you had not read it, as you really
don't know much about MLA at all. Clearly you did not have the
link then either, or you would not have asked for it.

Amusingly you try and now hide under the skirts of the ABA,
an "evil" bunch of beefgrowers, to attack MLA. The thing is,
you girls don't have the foggiest, you invent all this stuff as
you go along. People with half a brain at least inform themselves
to know what they are arguing about. You girls have one weakness,
you would rather bemother livestock then accept that we humans
eat them. So hey, get yourself a pet lamb

Yabby said
*collected by federal government.*

Exactly Gertrude, ...
Pale replies
No No Yabby, I was refering to the $1.00 for $1.00 public purse funding to 'both'= MLA and =livecorpe each. Its 50 50 Government Industry.

Also the public funding which goes into enquiries= ALL of which recomdeded a immediate BAN. They are many other hidden public costs.

Yabby Said
Now for once in your life get off your little
butt and learn about what MLA actually do, where the money
comes from and where it is spent!

pale Comments
Umm, well now Yabbys thats a tall order. Mind You I have had some help as to leads for funding,
From: Michael Finucan
To: info@halakindmeats.com
Cc: Yvette Farrell

Dear Wendy,



Following our phone conversation and As I discussed with you on the phone you can review the funding ..
http://www.mla.com.au/TopicHierarchy/IndustryPrograms/default.htm.
Feel free to call me to discuss further....
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30
So there you go Yabbs -clear as mud- (Us usual)


Yabby
I am not the bible for plants and the meat industry. My resonsibilty is to find alternative methods. I have people that speak the laungage of the meat industry.

I post here to show people where to look and the only way to improve things for Animals.
Animal Lovers really need to comprimise and support people like ABA and other companies that at least want to slaughter here in Australia.


A few Animals saved from the live trade are better than none.

The only way to save them is to work with the industry.

Thats All I have to offer, 'sadly'.

Dear Yabby, can you tell us please what pieces of paper (in the form of real achievements - qualifications) which attest to your brilliance in economics, veterinary science, medicine, law and education? That would give us a clear idea of where your bizarre notions come from. It might also prove that a lack of education is often the reason why people resort to insults when backed into corners.

Cheers
Nicky
PS I DID like being called sweetheart though.

*what pieces of paper (in the form of real achievements - qualifications) *

First lesson in life kid, pieces of paper are not real achievements,
results in the real world are. Lang Hangcock did point out that
academics are for hire, a dime a dozen. So true.

Now if you used your bits of paper to achieve results in the real
world, then great. I remind you that Bill Gates was a high school
dropout however.

Now if we looked at results in the real world, I could start to
brag, but you might feel embarrassed.

Clearly you are trying to divert from the arguments here, so lets
just stick to the OLO method. Your ability to reason against mine.

Make your points, I will make mine, anyone who bothers to read these
posts can form their own opinions.

All very straightforward and simple sweetheart :)

Thanks, Yabby, But you make the age-old error of equating achievement with money, and that is not how ethical people measure their achievements - in fact quite the opposite.

Nite nite, sweetheart,

Nicky

There is a silent code of ethics in debating forums where, when one makes any claims, they are expected to substantiate them on request.

Claimants who are unable to do this, are viewed as shysters and cannot be trusted. The Mouth has constantly made the following claim:

"And I remind you Dickie, that I mentioned that I had the figures
from the annual report."

However, he refused to supply posters with the MLA's Annual Report, therefore I provided it for him. He chose to ignore it.

I will now provide that report again and I request the claimant to advise the title of the section heading and the title of the sub-section of the Annual Report which he claims contains the figures he brandished with gusto, concerning promotional expenditure on the live exports and red meat:

http://www.mla.com.au/HeaderAndFooter/AboutMLA/Corporate+documents/Annual+report.htm

"People with half a brain at least inform themselves
to know what they are arguing about."

Perhaps he will now share that information. Hey, that's some admission from the Mouth about his half a brain eh?

Nicky, you of course make the fatal flaw of thinking that money and ethics are
mutually exclusive, which is not the case. There is a huge difference between
money being a means to an end, or an end in itself.

Fact is that society views you quite differently to how you view yourself.
Fact is that your bits of paper, which you cherish, are only worth something
to you, if you want a job, to verify your claims.

Bill Gates, high school dropout, is now in the fortunate position where he
can ponder about life and what he cares about and write out a 1 billion $
cheque before breakfast to back his favourite ethical project. You will
post yet another post on OLO :) Big difference!

If Bill Gates flies into Sydney, I bet you that if he wants to have a chat
with Kevin, it will be arranged within hours. You will most likely
be fobbed off by the minders. That is the reality of this world, like
it or not.

Dickie, I don’t play by your rules on the internet. I never have and never
will.

Fact is that if you want to be a critic, at least be informed. The least you
could have done long ago, was to read the MLA annual report, so that
you know what they actually do and why. Informed criticism.

Yes I can easily tell you the exact page where my figures come from.
But first it might do you some good to inform yourself a little about
MLA and what they claim, so try and find the figures for yourself,
its not hard, just common sense. If you can’t find them, I’ll tell you.
Meantime even you should be able to guess that it has something
to do with marketing

Ladies and Er, Gentlemen:) Oh Thats right Yabbs, sorry I forgot:)

Regardless, I have to agree with Yabby about getting the job done.

Its the old farmers that most likely dont even read (half of them anyway) that will fix this problem- not the pen pushes.

You wont find any answers in MLA accounts .

Remember even if he wanted to Yabby couldnt stop live exports. He isnt reasonsible for this mess.

The National Party steered the Government and country into this.

Sure Yabbys a torment and loves beefing it up with the girls but thats about it.

At times hes been helpful.

If the 'mouth' as you call him Dickie 'didnt debate us' we would not have a track record on the net of =you girls 'out debating him' on the cruel live animal export trade:)

The fact is no money is worth treating animals like this so lets move on. ITS DARN RIGHT CRUEL! End of Story! For ANY Price!!

Yabby wouldnt know what MLA do with their money girls- that much I absolutly promise you.



Forget the figures leave that to ABA .

Forget everything you have learned through the animal welfare sites too.
Work at grass roots levels with the farmers and talk with overseas buyers direct,

DONT go through DPI Dont Go through ANY Government body.

Then your on the right track. Maybe start a ABA support group but dont mention aa or al or they will have pink pussy cats.

Its a start and you dont need degrees to do it.

That is IMOP the only thing that is going to make a difference.-

Get out into the 'real world' =where ploy`s and pen pushers are looked down on.= And rightfully so.
The laws of the bush is fair go mate- The farmers DID NOT create this cruelty. They are just dumped with the problems of a utterly morally bankrupt Government and system
You offer them the same price for a better outcome for their Animals and They will take it.
Simple

“Remember even if he wanted to Yabby couldnt stop live exports. He isnt reasonsible for this mess.” (Pale)

Pale

The Mouth is indeed “responsible for this mess” for he is a party to a consortium of humans who believe they have a divine right for dominion over other species by exporting live animals on death ships to the land of the barbarians.

Your vested interests, I believe, have clouded your good judgment of a man who is sufficiently deluded to force-feed posters here, lies so infantile, they would be rejected by a juvenile.

There is no record of the Mouth’s claims in the Annual Report.

I believe that your attempt at diplomacy may be at times prudent, however, you have reinforced my view that diplomacy has no friends, only interests.

Hubris and egophrenia are not worthy of diplomacy, therefore I shall not be as charitable as to afford the Mouth that courtesy since he has made clear that he delights in joyful cruelty and sadism.

It is the embodiment of arrogance for the Mouth to claim a higher knowledge and morality and at the same time inflict abuse and trauma on the defenceless. These are the humans who, operating under a mask of lucidity, are a danger to a society befitting the 21st century.

When you digest the diabolical propaganda put out by this industry one realizes that kindness to animals is not a consideration.

In the pursuit of unrestrained greed, this arrogant consortium is perversely dictating to a captive state government that they are above the laws set down by the legislated State Animal Welfare Act. This industry is an incubator of tyranny, perpetrated by a tyrannical and corrupt government and our Australian animals are the pawns.

Only yesterday German-based Hugo Boss, one of the world's largest fashion houses, has released a statement declaring it "dissociates itself from mulesing because it contravenes our corporate values".

International boycotts are now occurring on a regular basis. The world is watching Australia and its inhumane industries whose members, bewitched by power and avarice, will indeed be forced to learn the hard way.

Dickysaid

For he is a party to a consortium …

Pale replies

Umm, interesting comment. Ought to be discussed by lawyers and Church Leaders– when considering new Animal Welfare act- and= we ‘will’ have a new act.

Hopefully someone like Sir Paul May lend a hand = See RSPCA press conference on dominion over Animals and churches.

http://www.livexports.com/hughwirth.html

Don’t forget more and more however the Koran -so it’s very important we bring them into it now- taking over the meat trade.

. Kosher is a problem and we weren’t able get any animal welfare groups interested to join us together with meetings with head Muslims and leading Rabbi. However now RSPCA National have agreed.

One certainly does wonder about vetted interests and why your friends would refuse to do this for the animals...

Is it true what RSPCA leaders and others have said over the years- (That certain people refuse to work together because of egos and power strugglers)?

Why the hell all work together .Each can’t have something different to offer.

Dickiesaid

your vested interests, I believe, have clouded your good judgment.

Pale replies
Umm, no your emotion has clouded yours Dickey TBO. I understand because deep down I am the same. I believe if you had a project that would bring results you would be less frustrated.-

(The moral of the story is got get mad- get even)

It requires people with the determination to get results. Regardless if we have to lie with fleas or dogs (as they say) the purpose of all this is to make changes for the animals.

We can’t afford the luxury of self indulgence.

However let me disclose for the first time on OLO ‘my vested interests.’
To Be Contiuned=

Contiuned

However let me disclose for the first time on OLO ‘my vested interests.’

1. First to stop the ships and replace with =each plant having agreed to put in some form of improvement.

2. As technology become available= to update until each plant has gas to render Animals to sleep.

3 Dawn Low AA PACAT and each one of you girls- (and a few that don’t post here) to be funded to operate ongoing Animal Welfare work.

4To operation with Malaysia that I personally put on the table non animal tested (Halal) cosmetics and other products is a trillion dollar industry.

I believe that your attempt at diplomacy may be at times prudent; however, you have reinforced my view that diplomacy has no friends, only interests.

Pale replies
TBO I am not know for my diplomacy – However =your getting the hang of it :)

Dickysaid

Dictating to a captive state government

Pale replies

No Dickey- “fronting for’ the State Governments and Federal Governments

Dickysaid
MLA's Annual Report,
Pale
Leave that to ABA and others. = You girls deserve to have a program that will make a difference.
Please put your energy into challenging WA case. There are lawyers are waiting for assistance with this.


As for the people involved within the Industry its requires huge fundings to put them out of business.

These types of people can not be found in Australia.

However as Elders MLA AWB the Governments are well aware they are easily found overseas.

This is why FF MLA Austrade and All Government programes are designed to only promote the cruel live trade.
There is nO use going on at Government despite who is in power.

The system is too well entrenched and this is how they get into power. The vetted interests of the trucking companies and many others with ALP donations = of course that crosses over all political parties.


If you get the RIGHT overseas people involved in reopening Australian Abattoirs the Governmernt will jump.

Cheers and thanks for your brilliant efforts work along with Nicky.

Dickie dear, thanks for the many compliments and the melodrama.

Unfortunately none of it adds to any kind of rational debate, but
I do understand that you old ducks might have trouble keeping up,
as the mind is less clear. Fair enough, that's life.

The figures are on pages 16,18 and 21, so time to get your glasses
out and have another look.

I have given the Mouth every opportunity to redeem himself.

Yet the falsehoods and manipulations continue.

The Mouth is in need of a good carbolic scrub.

The marketing expenditure for Y/E 2007 was a record $88.2. million. Quite impressive for an industry which cries poor-mouth.

http://annualreport07.mla.com.au/five_years.php

“$57 million" plus “$600 thousand” does not add to $88.2 million.

Can one hold the international community responsible for placing this nation's eco-vandal cabals on its blacklist when we witness here,the less than ethical calibre of its representatives?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/16/2218618.htm

Ah Dickie, go back to the pages I referred you to and the
individual programmes.

Even for an old fart like you, you should be able to work
it out :)

If you can't, well ok, so have a cup of tea and a good
lay down for a while.

Poor Yabby, trapped by your own hand. Shame on you!

Thanks for that info, Dickie.

I'm just wondering, if the funding for THAT is dollar for dollar by the taxpayer. It's enough to make me want to go on the dole so I don't pay any taxes (aren't most of the farmers now getting the dole, which the wider community has to mortgate its soul to get on to?) More taxpayer support, along with the subsidies for when it's wet, when it's dry, when it's hot, when it's cold, and for the latest SUV as well.

It's endless, what we throw at these parasites really, isn't it?

Cheers
Nicky

dickie, I'll help you out: http://annualreport07.mla.com.au/trade_development.php

definately states $600 000

Your own link proved the live exports were worth $700 million. Was Yabby lying?

Nicky, I never thought of you as one to harbour resentment and jealousy toward farmers, who are providers of food to the Australian nation. The people of Australia have been living cheaply at the farmers expense (declining terms of trade) with prices remaining static, but with increasing costs. They have spent the money saved on food to invest in housing and consequently we have some of the most expensive housing in the world, and inflation to boot. Now the farmers, during the worst drought in memory, get to pay higher interest bills and rates at a time when there is no income - and you then deign to criticise the minority of farmers who do claim benefits.

NO, MOST FARMERS DON'T GET THE DOLE or subsidy only about 1 in 8 do, 24000 according to abare.
I find your inaccuracy astonishing and nothing short of malevolenent, but really accuracy hasn't been your concern lately, has it?

Poor Nicky, trapped by your own hand. Shame on you!

"definately states $600 000"

Rojo

You have plucked your figure from under "Investment" which is somewhat irrelevant to the Mouth's "promotional expenditure" terminolgy. Why are you flogging a dead horse?

This is what the Mouth said:

"I make my point again. 57 million for promotion of meat,
600 thousand for live exports promotion. What is your
problem?"

So did the Mouth also grab that figure from "Investment?"

1. Definition of promotion: Programs designed to increase visibility, promotional marketing increases brand awareness and drives consumer action.

2. Generally, promotion is communicating with the public in an attempt to influence them toward buying your products and/or services.

Definition of Investment:

1. An asset or item that is purchased with the hope that it will generate income or appreciate in the future.

2. In an economic sense, an investment is the purchase of goods that are not consumed today but are used in the future to create wealth.

The figure I have raised is for "Marketing." If you don't believe "Marketing" means "promotional", then please advise otherwise.

And of course, if you are a member of MLA, you may consider another look at the A/R to find what the additional $30m or so was spent on under "Marketing." That's the figure that you and the Mouth have chosen to ignore.

As for your whack at Nicky, I remind you that farmers are not the Messiah's chosen people. They grow a product, we the consumers buy it. The problem is, that despite the overwhelming evidence that this nation has been raped of its ecological sustainability through imprudent agricultural technologies, farmers continue to practise in a manner which places this nation and others at grave risk.

Now now Dickie dear, don't try and crawl out of it with a heap of
semantic claims. Investing in various programmes is plain English.

page 16 Domestic trade and consumer promotion 27.7 million
page 18 Export trade and consumer promotion 30.2 million

That is your 57 million for meat.

page 21 Trade development-livestock exports 0.6 million

Yes they have other programmes related to marketing, if you
read further, but those are the three marketing programmes.

Of course I don't expect you to ever admit defeat, as it is
not in your nature, but then it takes bigger people then
you, to admit when they are wrong. In this case you were,
no matter how you try and wriggle out of it

Hi all
Dickie, you and I clearly are the only ones to pick up the hidden truths in MLA's propaganda machine. I don't find anything particularly dramatic in what you have said, but that is just Yabby's way of reacting when he is backed into a corner (as he usually is).

As you quite rightly point out, farmers grow stuff and people buy it - but also in this country, people make stuff and people buy it, and people do all sorts of other things in any number of professions for which people pay, so it is only in the farmers' collective imaginations that they are the only, or even close to being the major, source of GDP in this country (in fact they are a very minor source, something like 3%, from memory) - you can find that data at www.liveexportshame.com straight from the ABS.

Now my computer technician is coming round (he provides a service for which I pay and there are lots of him, too).

Sorry, Rojo, but you guys need to get over yourselves. I've got to say that I find the fact that we are paying 24,000 farmers the dole rather obscene ... no-one else can get it without jumping through a million hoops.

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky, your few taxes would do little but pay a tiny bit towards your own
salary. Last time I looked, the amount spent on education is huge, around
16 billion or whatever, I would have to check. So Govt money is virtually
being thrown at you, that includes my taxes.

Given that economics is clearly your weakness, I’ll explain some basics to
you. Mining is actually not a large % of GDP, but it is vital, as it generates
export $. The same applies to farming. Not only do we feed you lot, but
export 70% of what we produce, which helps to stop you living in a banana
republic. You rode the sheeps back for most of your life, as did most Australians.

Now if suburban Australia could actually generate reasonable export $, compared
to what they spend shopping etc, then farming would matter less. But that is
not the case. You can’t.

So we have had 2 economies for a long time in Australia, one competing on global
markets, one competing on the protected local market. We still pay tariffs on many
of our inputs, less then before, but they should have been removed long ago. Yet
we have to compete globally.

If we benchmark Australian farm commodities internationally, what we have is
extremely cheap products at the farm gate, but city Australians seem unable to
take those products and value add them efficiently. So we have to find the
shortest possible route to our end customers, because of your poor performance.

Given your poor performance in suburbia, given your tendency to screw farmers
for every cent that you can for your own benefit, the more that we avoid your
inefficient ways, it seems the better we do.

Farming is a business, people have bills to pay to survive. If you can’t pay us
a reasonable price, as in paid in say NZ, or the US, or the EU, or anywhere else
for that matter, the best thing we can do is put our produce on a boat and
avoid you as much as possible.

PID=N10450&RURL=/postings/15403/news/10450.html&WAID=&WRID=1540

Australian Beef Association News
Request More Information Email this to a Friend Print version
ABA Releases Its Questions for the MLA AGM
Published: 30 Oct 2007

News ID: 10450
ABA Chairman, Brad Bellinger today released questions that ABA/MLA members will attempt to ask at the MLA AGM at Rockhampton on 22nd.November.

He said, At previous MLA AGMs often there is limited time to ask our questions, so he thought it would be a good opportunity to make them public now before the AGM, which is being held in Rockhampton on Thursday 22ns November 2007.

ABA would like to ask questions to all of the MLA Board and will include the following:

How much has been spent on MSA since its inception and why is it not displayed in more retail outlets?

MLA has refused to do a cost benefit analysis of NLS. The UK has done one on RFID NLIS for sheep and found that its costs would render their industry uncompetitive in Europe. As the NLIS implementation costs mount here in Australia and our international competitiveness falls, will MLA do a cost benefit analysis to show how its levy payers are being hurt?

How many people are employed in the NLIS section of MLA?

What is the total cost to MLA of running the NLIS?

We read in the MLA Annual Report that $81,779 was paid to Ernst Young for their NLIS forensic investigation into the FarmOnline Rort. At the time we were told that we could see this Ernst Young report into the matter. When can we see it?

We understand that the two NLIS employees who rorted the NLIS FarmOnline poll have not been dismissed. Was this because they were operating under orders from higher up the management ladder?

Your staff claimed that Japan required NLIS for its imported beef. Can you explain why USA, with BSE and no NLIS is taking back our market share in Japan?
To Be Contiuned

contiuned
Your predecessors last Chairman's Report claimed that a USFTA would help Australian beef producers and that MLA was helping the Government in negotiations. It has done the reverse through its 'Side Letter', which helped USA get back into Japan. Can you explain your support for the signing?

Can you guarantee that no MLA money will go to NFF under any pretext such as the City/Farm $1 million project?

How much money has MLA spent in propping up the Cattle Futures market and how much longer will it continue to do so?

You had a Committee push for a $1.50 increase in the transaction levy because your Officers claimed that the herd would rise to 31 million by 2009. How do you explain the falling herd and the falling prices when the US producers are getting almost twice what our producers are getting and only have a $1 levy?

Your organisation claims success due to a claimed additional $418 million spent by domestic consumers on red meat purchases. How do you arrive at the expenditure figure?

As supermarkets are taking a much larger share of the consumer dollar and the increased expenditure is not passed back to producers whose levies pay for the advertising. Why isn't your performance measured on what produces are paid rather than what supermarkets receive?

Mr Bellinger said, 'He will be attending the MLA AGM and would be happy to use any proxy votes directed to him'
The End

Hello all


The Answer girls is within the industry- give the farmers an equal price to sell here and they will take it.
Nothing else is going to make a tad of difference. Its not driven by Australia but huge international demand.

Times a waisting.

Things are happening.

Give us a hand to open plants or watch them go on boats forever.

Nicky, you made a broad statement that most farmers are getting the dole and therefore "parasites", a completely wrong and ignorant statement. It is evidently not farmers who need to get over themselves in this case.

As you so kindly pointed out most farmers are doing well, having those 4x4's those city folk regard as status symbols, though just a necessity for many in rural areas. And according to abare, farmers have built substantial equity in their holdings. Some more than others http://business.smh.com.au/the-100-million-question/20080413-25vy.html?skin=text-only
There will always be some intent on tearing farmers down, downplaying their importance to the nation. I can only surmise it is to make themselves feel important, that their vocation is somehow more noble and essential than feeding the masses.

While you may well scoff at the farmers few percentage points of GDP, our value in trade with other countries doesn't have a lot to do with hairdressers and waitresses here. If you think of Australia as a business then all that internal spending is simply shifting money from dept to dept, real revenue is from exports. The rest of GDP is simply turnover.
Agriculture still makes up some 30% of our export dollars. If we think we can continue to import goods based on internal turnover we have problems. We already do with our imports outweighing our exports widening the trade deficit. Without an ag industry it would be wider still.

When you stop and have a good look at things what is more important than food?(other than water, which farmers own rights to a lot of too). In a food crisis, who would be more important to Australias future than a farmer. Take farmers for granted if you wish, just remember that agriculture has enabled humans to free themselves from a hunter/gatherer existence, and to do many other things in life, including biting the hand that feeds them.

Holy cow – can anyone interpret the Mouth's hysterics for me?

In reality, when you read a recent drought policy by expert Dr Linda Bottril, farming families are now receiving welfare support at 12 times the rate of other welfare recipients in the community.

As an Australian National University researcher, she says she is mystified by the rationale for the latest government drought welfare assistance which allows a doubling of the allowable off-farm income to $20,000 before the welfare payment is decreased.

How much are taxpayers paying to support farmers? It's rising rapidly. When this phase of drought support began in the intense dry of 2002-03, $141 million was handed out, most of it to pay farmers unemployment benefits if their farm was no longer producing enough to earn them a living.

Then $220 million in 2004-05 and almost doubling to $386 million in 2005-06, and swelling again to $660 million in 2006-07.

You can bet it will be at least $1 billion this year.

And the MLA's annual "promotional expenditure" was $88 million!

I don't believe my tax should be given to Australians that are more affluent than I am particularly since livestock and the crops which feed the livestock occupy some 60% of Australia’s arid and desecrated land mass.

What’s left over is for grain growers and fresh produce farmers who remain under the impression they can grow stuff in a bloody desert.

Some time ago, ecologist Peter Cullen argued that farming had spread into outback areas unsuitable for it, and after years of little or no rain.

Regardless, this fragile land is sacrificed for the cruel and unethical live export of cattle, goats, sheep, deer, camels and anything else this greedy consortium can get their mits on and expanding, reducing our GDP, trashing our eco systems; polluting our ports and oceans; exacerbating drought conditions and significantly increasing GHGs.

All for the selfishness and blind greed of a cabal who knows but one objective: Maximum profits and bugger the consequences.

And yet the Mouth keeps sookin' and sucks his thumb.......!

Rojo
I agree with what you are saying about farmers basically) about this country and its background =I cant help but wonder why you are taking the Mickey out of Nicky.

All she is really saying is for God Sake have some common deceny and at least slaughter Animals in their place of origen.

Now that is RSPCA official stand on the subject along with all other Animal Welfare organisations and vets if you exclude the ones paid by the Government.

Its also what most real farmers have to say. You may not hear from these chaps every single day. The truth is they shake their heads and simply walk away.

They want nothing to do with the low lifes that only care about picking up on the trade dollar.
The live agents themselves have openinly its not about the product its about the trade dollars.

It could have been car tyers. However the world food demands put Australia in the top demand for meat products.

You will note I said meat products because telling people it must be live for whatever crap livecourpe the Government and MLA FF is simply just a lie.

I think best for people trying to attention to cruelty not rubbish farmers ( which we simple must have)

If we are to change it we must work together. We have to go to ME and Asia and the others. We have to personally invite buyers into Australian markets to form an alience at grass roots with our farmers.
We have to do this now before its too late.

Its been left far too long and big plans are underway which will stop us from turning back.

MLA and Austrade are just a government front and Government are in bed for donations from the live animal shipping scum bags that take the jobs from your grandkids.

And BTW farming is the root of any country- So lets not toss it away.

Yabby if you cant see those animals blined and their teeth bareing in pain - Your certainly no farmer btw interesting comment about pink eye.

dickie, No it said development not investment.

personally i would have said trade development was indeed promotion spending, unless you feel some of the animal welfare expenditure falls under promotion. Unfortunately for your argument the $600 000 was not a figure plucked from a hat, but from the report as yabby said.
I have no livestock, and consequently no concern about MLA membership or how they spend the money. I can however find and read their budgets, and the $30m conspiracy theory is crushed by the large number of expenses covered under the umbrella of Marketing in a very brief 5 year summary. Basically everthing other than R&D has been classified as marketing.

Have a go at agriculture if you choose, just remember you depend on it every day of your life.
consumers don't have much of a choice do they? I doubt the population would survive resorting to hunting and gathering, the resources won't last at current people numbers.
We have had abundant food for so long and so cheaply that it has now become a mere product in the shop, it's importance taken for granted. Even the producer held to ridicule.

No food no life. How important can it get?

I haven't been to southern WA so I can't comment on your portrayal of it's ag systems, but I'm sure you'll provide that overwhelming evidence, seeing that we all take each others word here so highly and all

Hi all
Yabby, let me assure you that my taxes constitute a very substantial part of my salary. And I'm afraid that there is no getting around the minimal contribution to GDP of the agricultural sector; education, (like other sectors) however, while it receives funding (nowhere near what the poor struggling farmers receive in taxpayers' largesse) it is not not free to anyone, and contributes substantially to export dollars.

As for hairdressers, shop workers, and other sectors, Rojo, at least they are not draining the welfare trough as 24,000 farmers are. What is it going to take for them to realize that they're not very good at what they do, if they have to claim the dole in such numbers? I'm all for helping the disadvantaged out, but not when they're hooning around in gas guzzling vehicles worth twice as much or more than mine, and they are are less productive in the workforce than I am. Nor do I regard SUVs in the cities as status symbols, they are menaces.

I read that link. So one guy is doing all right - either he is smarter than the rest of you, or you are crying poor with little justification. Either way, (most of) the rest of us are expected to earn our living, declare what we earn and be penalized by Centrelink for that, but not 24,000 farmers.

We, in fact, are pretty self sufficient with regard to food, most of what we eat we grow, so I think we would survive reasonably well. Maybe a bit inconvenient, but that's as bad as it would get.

Rojo, I'm with Dickie also about the total disregard of livestock farmers for the soil erosion and environmental degradation (not to mention the animal abuse) which results from their greed. And you have brought the growing public backlash about how you people do what you do upon yourselves as the community is better informed.

But we digress. The argument here is exactly how much in taxpayers' dollars is MLA REALLY using to promote its brutal trade in live animals?

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky, your posts are nearly as melodramatic as those of Dickie. Never mind
the reality, emotional rhetoric will make you girls feel better :)

Something like 90 billion $ is handed out in social welfare in Australia.
Something like 8 million are recipients of some kind of social welfare.
If you have a problem with the last Govt helping a few farmers through
a drought, frankly it’s a piddlefart amount, compared to what you dish
out to yourselves, there is suburbia.

If you’d prefer to see those small farmers in the Eastern States go broke
and corporate farming move in, ok fair enough. That will most likely
happen anyhow, as more super fund money gets ploughed into agriculture.

I can assure you however, they FOCUS on the bottom line, they also
know how to lobby, unlike most small farmers now, where what they
do is more tied up with their lifestyle and a love of their land.

Corporate farming is about $, if that is what you prefer, so be it.

Hecs fees don’t pay for education Nicky, they make a small contribution
to you running your show there. Education is still largely bankrolled
by us taxpayers. Billions are ploughed in every year, you certainly don’t
pay your way. I don’t have a problem with that, just when you start
to crap on about subsidies to agriculture, lets get things straight.
Your wages depend on our subsidies.

Yes Dickie, we are growing crops in a bloody desert. Through clever
technology, with new conservation tillage methods, grain yields
are rising, soil carbon levels are rising, we are doing more with
less water, far more sustainably then ever before. Its all happening
in WA, the rest of Australia is now copying what was pioneered
over here.

Fact is that the world can’t go back to the hunter/gatherer lifestyle
that you think would be more suitable for our environment. Its not
farmers who created a global population boom, go and see your
old employer about that one.

The more you try to bring farmers down the more power to the miners and etc.

That’s less land to run free range farmers like the real farmers do.

The less free range farmers the less land. The less land and free range farmers the more cramped feed lots and barbaric cruelty.

Be careful for what you wish for.

Regarding MLA and Livecorp 'So what'. We have all known they are a bunch of crooks with Australian Government doing their deals with USAto ensure cruelty contiunes.

Let’s move on.

If you truly want to help the Animals then we must not attack the farmers. This is where peta AA aL and pale and RSPCA stand miles apart.

Your leadership has been all wrong in some of these departments.

It’s been a big mistake to protest meat and carry on rolling around the ground in shopping centers with pretend blood etc.

Now I have shown you the links from ABA and you can see there is a difference.

There are some reasonable farmers out there who would really support Animal Welfare.

However under your leader ship you are putting distance between those good farmers and animal welfare groups.

I have said before we will fix the case but you’re not interested.

Nor are you interested in establishing free range co joint farms to slaughter here to compete with live which is even more important than the case. YES IT IS!

So wow we just went full circle and we are back to
Pale having to do both.!

I know you guys think of AA as the all mighty God. Yup they have done a lot of good- But nobody knows everything and it’s their way or the highway.
Well girls it’s going to be the highway for a long time for these animals if people don’t start to listen.

It’s not Australia you need worry about. It’s the huge multi trillion dollar Halal trade world wide.

Now we can either STAND up or Demand these plants are built HERE or kiss this goodbye forever.

The following are excepts from a fullsome response I've received from another country on the inhumane treatment of its animals.

It is an indictment on Australia when other countries are sufficiently civilised to respond to written objections of animal cruelty and one's own prime minister, politicians and premiers are too ignorant to respond to appeals from its own people.

This reinforces the assumption that the live export trade in Australia is indeed a cartel of tyrants, propped up by a corrupt and inhumane government.

"Dear Sir/Madam:

"Thank you for your communication regarding the inhumane handling of cattle at Hallmark/Westland Meat Packing Company. We appreciate the opportunity to update you on how the Agency is responding to the situation.

"I want to assure you that USDA and FSIS are taking these allegations very seriously.

"FSIS and the USDA’s Agricultural Marketing Service (AMS) are working with the USDA’s Office of Inspector General (OIG) as they conduct an investigation into this matter. The USDA investigation is ongoing, and additional actions will be taken as warranted.

"FSIS also enforces the Humane Methods of Slaughter Act, which requires that all livestock be handled and slaughtered in a humane way.

"We place a very high priority on ensuring that animals are treated humanely at all times. We have taken prompt actions. A summary of those actions is listed below.

"January 30, 2008—USDA indefinitely suspended Hallmark/Westland Meat Packing Company as a supplier to Federal nutrition assistance programs. In addition, an administrative hold was placed on all Hallmark/Westland Meat Packing Company products that were in or destined for Federal food and nutrition programs.

"February 1, 2008—Hallmark/Westland Meat Packing Company voluntarily stopped slaughter operations.

"February 4, FSIS issued Hallmark/Westland Meat Packing Company a Notice of Suspension because the establishment failed to maintain and implement controls to prevent the inhumane handling and slaughter of animals at the facility.

"etc.etc."

I shall now respond to that letter, outlining the disgraceful inactions of an Australian government which has given carte blanche to Emanuel Exports and the Middle East to continue on with their gruesome treatment of Australia's defenceless livestock.

Dickie
Lets not loose the tree for the forest here. I am sure there is cruelty in some USA abattoirs as there is in Australia.

The moral of the story is really very simple. Until Animal Welfare minded people get involved in tnhe trade it will contiune.

The aim is to stop live Animal ships and slaughter here.

From there try to improve Animals welfare every single year.

Its all we can hope for because if we protest animals being slaughtered for food we will loose - its very simple.

I understand you do not approve but tell me in all honesty- Got any better ideas that will actually make a difference no matter how small.?
The more we sit on our hands refusing to help open abattoirs in Australia.
The more animals are being loaded on ships.

We are well past it now but for a long time we tried to invite others who care about Animals to give a hand.

Had they had done that it would have made a huge difference.

No I am not having a go at you just pointing out the facts.

re the WA matter we are taking advise and if and when we do something it wont be a media circus.

As far as the MLA and livourpe are concerned it not worth your effort because its well documented if you read the ABA links etc etc.

*It is an indictment on Australia when other countries are sufficiently civilised to respond to written objections of animal cruelty and one's own prime minister, politicians and premiers are too ignorant to respond to appeals from its own people.*

Actually Dickie, some of those Govt minders would only have to
spend a few minutes on OLO and read the vitriol and hatred that
you and Nicky spew out, with you farmer hating, fanatical agenda.

Clearly the general population don't share your opinion, but
accept the vital role that agriculture plays in this nation.

Why should the Govt concern itself with a tiny number of radical
extremists?

It seems that in the US, they don't understand, just how extreme you
are in your views. Here, they have woken up to you some time ago.

The extremism of your posts says it all really.

"The extremism of your posts says it all really."

What a goose you are Yabby. Mouthing off thus further making a fool of yourself.

How you hate anyone who takes the trouble to perform research? "Googling" you call it I believe, as if only idiots "google." Your attempts to deny posters access to reputable sources of information is pathetic.

Therefore, if you regard Nicky and I as extremists, you must include all the other "extremists" whose opinion of the live export of Australia's animals is similar to ours. A few come to mind:

The Victorian Bar Association

The RSPCA

The Humane Society International

The World Society for the Protection of Animals

Compassion in World Farming

Animals Australia

PACT

No fewer than 10 charities have combined globally, having performed 2 years of undercover work and are denouncing Australia's treatment of its livestock. The UK Mirror deemed this article sufficiently worthy to publish it under its "Top Stories" section:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2008/02/12/charities-back-global-crusade-on-animal-transport-89520-20316953/

Then you have Britain's other media outlets - The Guardian and The Independent informing Europeans of Australia's propensity to inflict abuse and trauma on its animals.

And yet another British company with 200 stores across Britain has threatened to boycott Australia's wool industry. I trust they are fully informed of the live export industry's brutality.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23444673-421,00.html

In the meantime, new animal welfare groups are forming with the latest one in Australia established in Coffs Harbour.

We are indeed conscious of the collusion between governments and the live export industry when the labour agreement for abattoirs included a clause where employers had to pay a 457 visa recipient's medical insurance, school fees for children and air tickets for the entire family.

This clause does not apply to employers in other industries who wish to employ workers under the 457 visa but then nothing must get in the way of the live export industry eh?

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/wa/content/2006/s1930247.htm

Let's face it Yabby, you and the stupefying swill you feed us belongs to an ignorant, medieval era, along with the brutal archaic industry you defend and profit from.

Dickie dear, read your own posts, spewing vitriol and hatred of
farmers. Nicky calls them parasites. Extremism as we can all
see. Farmers grow food to feed people, most people actually
appreciate that, they don't spew out hatred instead. Most
Australians appreciate the economic beneftis that farmers add
to Australia's wealth. You deny even that.

So what if a few British papers repeat your animal liberation
propaganda? Have they examined what the experts in the field
have to say? Usually papers don't, they want sensationalism to
sell papers.

If anyone in the EU cares, they are free to open their markets
to Australian lamb and mutton, so that it does not have to rely
on third world markets.

As to 457 visas, I fully agree with you, the meat industry were
hopeless negotiators and got outdone by the unions. The Govt,
with an election looming, refused to budge. Bring in those workers,
as we have said all along! That does not mean that there was
any great conspiracy theory going on.

Dickie, I have no problem with anyone being against anything and
expressing their views. But when they express hatred and vitriol
as you do, then I will point that out. Extremist you are.

Its time all the Animal Groups decided to kick it off and pay those fees.

You wouldn’t even have to run it as an animal welfare issue.

Get the migrants groups involved.. Discrimination of migrant meat workers families. It’s rather insulting actually.

Or rustle up a few companies to sponsor a family each.

There is also no law in the world that stops people from refusing to accept others paying their kids school fees and families medical bills.

Many of these blokes would probably insist on repaying it out of family honor.

Err, unless of course the Government introduces a law making it illegal for them to pay for their own families :)

But look, I tell you what, here’s a good place to start and of all its in WA.>

West Australian says its Government has set up a special migration service to assist miners wanting to relocate to the booming resources state.

"We've got heaps of jobs over here, wonderful lifestyle, great to raise your families. We're just saying to those workers at Beaconsfield if you haven't got a job and you've got a young family and you want to start anew, Western Australia is a great place to be. You know, it's ridiculous if we've got Australian's on the eastern seaboard unemployed and we're bringing people from overseas into Western Australia."

The end

By Jo, No wonder everybody is heading off into the mining industry with all this extra assistance- Umm

Now look here’s another chap that might take up the cause a man wanting to push farming and meat to the Government.
With contacts like MLA I am a few pennies to sponsor the workers would be no problem :) =

Mr. Crombie, a businessman and former chairman of Meat and Livestock Australia, says the NFF's role is to push the farming agenda with government, and emphasize the importance of agriculture to the economy.

So there you have it Dickie between the WA Government MLA working with the donations from peta the workers can come :)

What do you reckon Yabby a good idea or what:)

Yo,Whats for breakfast Yabbs

After reading this I am sure the usual post will follow.
( pale I have no idea what you’re talking about)And 'that’s' the problem.

Well hello to you too Dickie. How are your friends at AA?

It’s interesting to see you all working so well with the President of WSPA Dr Wirth.

Nobody liked him much as President of RSPCA Australia.

Must be the sea change:)


Dickie I should WSPA in your ear the on line law for live exporters must come in very handy at times.

The Victorian Bar Association has been most helpful

http://www.rurallaw.org.au/links.php?chapter_id=72
©2008 Victoria Law Foundation - All Rights Reserved

With the support of Deacon University
Website Designed and Hosted by
CeCC University of Ballarat

(BTW do you have the figures there for donations from Landmark and Elders etc for Vet and Ag Students to universities?

Like I said Dickie people need to start thinking for themselves-outside the square or in this case maybe circle.

Oh btw Yabby Dickies views were NOT extreme she was pointing out the unfairness in the meat trade to abattoir workers in support of live exports and you know it.
She’s on the right track- her and Nicky and doing a good job of it.

Also Animals Australia and Animal liberation have heaps of members who are not veggies as RSPCA and ourselves do.

Yabby said
As to 457 visas, I fully agree with you, the meat industry were
hopeless negotiators and got outdone by the unions. The Govt,
with an election looming, refused to budge. Bring in those workers,
as we have said all along! That does not mean that there was
any great conspiracy theory going on.

Pale replies
The AMIEU having been so vocal before were told to back off live exports.

In the mean time yabby I am sure donations to sponsor abattoir workers families from companies will be made a tax deduction.

Actually I think its such a good idea to protect Australia tax payers from carrying strain from overseas workers it should be regulated as a law to ALL industries :)

Hi all
Dear me, everyone is attributing activities to me when they don't even know what I do. Yabby, you have made the assumption I work in the education sector, and PALE, you attribute to me Animals Australia's ethos, and, I assume, membership. Neither is true.

Dickie, I got the same response from the USDA. In Australia, however, politicians completely disregard the opinions of anyone who does not support what farmers do. I do, however, take on board the comment from Yabby about corporate farming.

PALE, without going into detail, I have tried to explain that I cannot participate in your plan. You seem to be under the impression that everyone can drop all the commitments they have in their lives to get involved with your Muslim friends whenever and wherever. It is not that simple, even if I wished it were. I also do not happen to agree with you that it is the only answer, as I have said before. This is something that needs a multi-faceted approach, and yours may have merit, but it is certainly not the only one. If it were, then I would suggest that there would have been a better take-up rate.

There is much that needs addressing animal welfare in this country as well, including the "Standards" for the transport of livestock, and intensive farming here; we are not all involved on a "single issue" basis.

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky

I don’t recall asking you to drop your life and move in with AFIC.

I post on here as you do to give my opinion on what will improve animal welfare.
Not to mention the welfare of this country shipping out our most valuable material
You are of course free to disagree however the bottom line is the bottom line.
I have always said it comes down to changes within the industry and to do that we need some new big players.

You are correct by saying this is something that needs a multi faceted approach Nicky and that’s the problem because it’s all tackled by the PETA approach. In Australia it will back fire badly.

The Australian public are the 'last' people this industry and Government is concerned about. Its internationally driven.

I have always agreed with one thing Yabby has said and that is the Animal Welfare groups need advisors that understand the meat industry and not just in Australia.

The meat industry is not driven by Australia and in fact we have little control

As far as there not being more take up with our views Nicky I can only say as you said –

This is something that needs a multi-faceted approach, and ours does have merit and no it is certainly not the only one.

However it is the ONLY one to be black listed by PETA and Animals Australia AL etc.

The bottom line Nicky is that’s pretty arrogant of them and rather curious.

I am not having a personal shot at you just simply telling it like it is.

To refuse invitations to meet with Muslim Leaders with ourselves in Australia and Asia, tells me there is a lot more behind this.

If they had the slightest clue what’s going on in the meat industry you would understand. Regardless I am not trying to tell you what to do.
My posts are simply comments – like yours.

Nicky, "We, in fact, are pretty self sufficient with regard to food, most of what we eat we grow" - Come again? who grows it if it's not farmers? Who are you kidding, surely not just yourself. The scary thing is not even realising how dependant we are on farmers.

The dole as you call it is around $10000pa, or $240m a year - during exceptional drought years. I don't know how many hoops you think farmers have to go through, but enduring drought for a number of years and not making money is a fairly high one. Unlike some recipients of welfare, I doubt this minority of farmers deliberatly are in it to rip the taxpayers of Australia off, they just need a little help. If they don't have money they can't spend it in their communities and 1000s more suffer, its not just about supporting farmers. And lets put the 24000 into perspective alongside the existing 2 million people who mainly rely on welfare income

The baby bonus is somewhere over $1 billion per year, and the first home buyers scheme is a $1 billion a year, neither means tested. The Australian govts spend billions on sport, sport contributes about 1.8 % of GDP. What is more important , food or a game of footy?

I don't doubt that this minority of farmers will have long term viability concerns, and I don't support a handout approach, but I won't criticise those in need of help accepting help. What we have to accept is that it is a small minority of farmers and not wrongly paint it as a majority.

Continuing the assumptions, if only about 12.5% of farmers are claiming assistance then isn't it fair to say that the other 87.5% might be the ones with the SUVs.
It's not my fault you don't drive a more expensive car, and you're probably better off not. Sadly farmers don't have bitumen to their backdooor and 4 wheel drive is a necessity for many of them.

cont'd

"So one guy is doing all right - either he is smarter than the rest of you, or you are crying poor with little justification"
He's one of many in my area, and I have another decade or so to catch up to his current age and achievment level. As we have discussed it is a minority "crying poor", the majority having no such justification. Not saying however that any farmer is happy about declining terms of trade, or losing market access.

re erosion: I hate to be the one to tell you this but not all farmers have livestock, and only a few of the ones that do are in marginal lands. You can't have a population of 20 million people and not have an impact on the environment, whether it be concrete jungles, roads or erosion. I guess we'll just have to export all our food to China, given your projected backlash. They know what it's like to starve.

*however, politicians completely disregard the opinions of anyone who does not support what farmers
do.*

Policiticians have to be realists Nicky, or they won't last long.
Certainly not amongst the major parties. Those in smaller parties
can say what they like, they don't even have to think through the
consequences of their actions. A small minority will vote for them,
based on the feelgood factor.

Fact is that politicians realise that your ideal world is a fantasy,
little more. The world is growing in population by 80 million a
year and people want food. By far the majority also want to keep
eating meat. The whole vegan story is very quaint, but very much
out of touch with our real world. Believe me, somebody will farm
that land as population increases, if its not farmers, it will
be corporations. I note that Maquarie are starting to make investments.

The notion that farmers should not make a profit for their labour,
is dreaming. When you girls work, you want a decent wage for your
labour. Why not farmers? I doubt if you would work for 4$ an hour.
Well don't apply two standards.

I have a simple solution. I benchmark. The farmgate price of our products
in a global sense, is highly competitive. Our problem is the next step,
from the farmgate to the wharf. Suburban Australia seems unable to
do this efficiently. They have one answer, pay farmers less. Well sorry,
farming is a business, bills have to be paid. We think globally, not locally.

Milk is a classic situation in WA. Prices have been well under the rest of
the Australian average, as processors admitted to being inefficient. So half
the herd was sold off and growers closed their doors. Now they are screaming
for milk and more dairy farmers. It is bleeding ridiculous!

Meat is the same. We grow and produce meat. Suburbia should be able to
process it and market it, in some efficient manner. Based on the benchmarks
they clearly cannot. Well farmers are not about to go broke to suit your agenda
Nicky.

Nicky, with the kind of stuff going on, you really have to question
as to why anyone should take your lot seriously.

Now our dear Dickie claims some kind of intelligence and a hate
for the word "googling", despite the fact that I gather that some
dictionaries are now accepting it as a new term, as google has taken
over the search engine business.

I seldom bother with Dickie's googles, but last time I checked out
a couple, which she posted as credible evidence for her claims.

One was about 10 lines from the Mirror, where they got their stats
wrong by a factor of 10.

The other was about a clothing chain with 200 stores, who had never
sold Australian wool, but after a visit from the Peta mob, declared
that they would not sell Australian wool. How frigging stupid do
you think that people have to be, to not notice the major propaganda
going on here?

If this sort of crapola is considered as real evidence, why should
anyone take you lot seriously?

Dear Pelican, Nicky, Pale

I have signed the following petition as have many Australians. Please, I urge you to do likewise.

The charge is against an artist in Honduras where the artist tied a street dog up in a gallery and allowed it to starve to death, simply to obtain accolades for his piece of "art."

This is not disimilar to the animals on Australia's institutionalised ships of death, where these hapless animals are also incarcerated and die from inanition, resulting from stress and exhaustion, before being dumped overboard.

Perhaps we should advise the petitioner that this "developed" nation has now legalised the abuse and torment of its animals?

The petition has nearly half million signatures and I note it has grown by more than 100,000 in less than a day.

Please pass this on to all friends and acquaintances.

Thank you.

http://www.petitiononline.com/ea6gk/

Hello Dickie

Thanks .Signed it and will pass it around. See if the web master RSPCA QLD can put it up.

Put it up on our new site. Also ask GY to post it on OLO.

reminds me must put our petition.

Well Yabby What you havent done is to explain why you dont support abattoirs being opended to kill the animals here and send them in a box.?
Its good for the country and I do agree with er, Rojo that Australia is a Ag country.

Considering where we are placed in the world by ourselves its just as well.
You will probably write back saying you are not against abattoirs or red meat industry owners.

However you are in effect Yabby. Everything you do opposes us.

Then you will say why should they farmers suffer. You know very well nobody is out to hurt farmers.

In the first place this problem was not caused by the farmers.

In a way they are a victim of the big corperate sly
organisations like the poor animals. Now however all farmers are aware of the facts.

I regect your comment about the pictures. Anybody used to live stock can see clear signs of distress. If you cant then I must be talking to a live animal export agent because its clear to anybody understand lifestock and even lay people.

Maybe thats it because you sure dont talk like a farmer. That comment you made about Nicky being a fish wife for eg. Thats not how a farmer talks.
Thats somthing that a person possibly with a English more upper class mum would say.

Regarless you should be helping to open plants and slaughter here.
For your country if not the Animals.

Since the Australian Muslim leaders have come out saying quite clearly muslims dO NOT require animals alive there is 'no excuse'

Not that there ever was.

Goodnight, Dont stay up to late.


Goodnight also Yabb( I think:)

Hi all
Dickie, thank you for that link, I have already done it and circulated it. I doubt if starving dogs to death for the sake of "art" would even win approval from Yabby and Rojo.

Dear me, lads, I do seem to have hit a nerve. What I meant was that we (I mean my household) survive as far as possible on what we grow ourselves (vegetables and fruit), although I have to admit that my dogs are not convinced about vegetarian diets, and we do buy feed for our (pet) chooks, who are refugees from a battery farm.

It would be interesting if every household in Australia did that. Where would you be then?

The PETA approach seems to have worked pretty well with mulesing, even if there has been the odd stumble (Toni Collette being a bit short on integrity). Do you seriously believe that ANYTHING would have been done about mulesing if PETA had not got it out to the world? You boys would have continued the mutilations forever. BTW, can anyone explain to me that it, in the Muslim faith, the animal has to be unmarked (therefore not stunned), and "whole", and not have suffered before slaughter, why these hypocrites buy mulesed sheep in their millions? Then torture them? No-one has ever seemed to be able to clarify all that.

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky
a little secret.

Most these people wouldn’t know a sheep from a cow. Less what mulesing was, let alone detect it.

They are not Australian stockmen and have no idea of the phcyi of Animals.

They are basically scared, terrified of these animals. Which is why they rip their eyes out before slaughter and slash the tendons so othe cow cant kick.
To themselves protect themselves in utter ignorance out of fear.

Now leaving ‘you’ out of this next comment.

I say this. The leadership of Animal Welfare could be better.

Many times pale have asked for assistance to address Muslim people and form Animal Welfare groups to educate these people as to what is going on.

We had the most wonderful people at one of the Mosques down there ready to kick this off in Victoria.

We wrote to them regarding that along with forming young lawyers groups and offering some of our lawyers to give speeches.

I note they did take up the suggestion on the lawyers groups. (Of course without getting back to us.) But that’s ok we expected it.

PETA may have plenty of money which I am sure impresses some.

There is no denying also many of their "volunteers and members have done great work."

Pity their leader has the same strange arrogant nasty disposition because SO MUCH couldhave been done better to unite farmers and Muslims to stand up against the Government

ie Forming Muslim Education groups, ,farmers support groups to back ABA.

Posting on the Muslim forums to educate and form bonds.

Instead you just all bag farmers and Muslims. That ought to help '

Well done.!

*The PETA approach seems to have worked pretty well with mulesing*

The Peta approach means that a huge number of sheep, will die very
cruel and lonely deaths, eaten alive by maggots. But they are too
naive about the topic, to understand the ramifications of their
actions. Good intentions do not mean good outcomes.

Peta have never been out on a 100'000 to 500'000 acre station, to
see what happens or understand what happens in a flywave. With
rising fuel costs, what do you think is going to happen?
People will check their sheep less often, those that are struck
will die and boyo is that cruel. Just checking out one of those
stations can take days, let alone check behind every rock and
tree. Its really sad for the sheep that people like Peta and
yourself, can be so ignorant and stupid.

Gertrude I have always encouraged building more meatworks in
WA and am on record for it. But it won't be done by dreamers
like yourself, that game is too ruthless. I note that T&R
now say that they are getting some facilitation from the WA Govt,
so that is good news.

What I have done is introduce some rational debate about the live
sheep trade, not some of the crapola that is claimed on OLO.
There is a difference between a sheep being sad and a sheep
suffering cruelty. Given that you are overwhelmed by emotions
you see a sad sheep and think it is suffering. Big difference!

I see sad animals every day, on hobby farms, due to neglect,
ignorance, etc. etc. I also see animals suffering, again due
to ignorance and neglect. You girls confuse the two constantly,
they are not the same thing.

I never came onto OLO to debate the live trade. You just went on
and on and on about it, it was time to set the record straight.

Hi all
Yabby, I am prepared to give you credit for the position you have stated earlier on Trisolfen (BTW, what IS the issue with that?); but the reality is that you should not have more a animals than you can properly care for. That is regardless of the size of property you own (if you have that much property fuel costs should not be too much of a burden, nor should proper animal care),

If your sheep get flystrike you are neglecting them. If you cannot or will not care for them properly then don't have them. It is quite simple really. It is a matter of crutching more frequently, but of course, you people won't pay for that.

PALE, I am not "bagging" anyone on the basis of their faith, but I will "bag" anyone, regardless of their faith/culture/ethnic origin if they are cruel to animals, and I have a particular dislike of how some cultures treat women. Muslims just happen to be involved in both. For the record, the Chinese and Koreans (and we send both these countries animals as well) are worse for the former. The people you talk about, your Muslim friends, have come to Australia, and therefore have tacitly accepted certain Australian standards; they should not need "educating". Nor should we have to "persuade" them or provide inducements to them to do what is right.

The NSW Young Lawyers have been involved in animal welfare for years, so that wasn't a novel idea. There is also a new group of young lawyers in Queensland. The Victorian panel of barristers came about in much the same way. I hear that there are some lawyers involved in animal issues in Tasmania as well. Voiceless has Katrina Sharman, who is just excellent.

I don't know about the indigenous communities building ships large enough to ship frozen meat, that sounds like a bit of a leap to me, since shipbuilding in Australia is, to use an unfortunate turn of phrase, almost "dead in the water".

Cheers
Nicky

YAbby said
People will check their sheep less often, those that are struck
will die and boy is that cruel.

Pale comments
All the more reason for the Minister of imagration to allow people willing and able to work into this country and build some AG schools on these stations with Government assistance.

They can teach English at the same time. Also double up for health care for the whole region.

Lets face it the bush needs it and if we are going to increase immigration we best have a plan and a future for some of these people instead of flooding cities.

We need properties broken up in sections with cabins and accommodation and btw there’s nothing wrong with bikes and horses for transport where 4 wheal drives get expensive.

Mind you most people gave gas.

Yabby said

Gertrude I have
…
Pale replies

Well Yabbs, if I came to WA in twelve months time I would like to think you would assist me as much as you have live exports.

No, I am not dreaming, it’s more like a nightmare. I agree it won’t be done personally by me.

You well know that no one person could do this alone. It requires some big bucks tossed into it from purchases of the products.

It also requires someone smart enough to give free shares in certain areas to fully involve farmers.

That is how you ensure a succefful outcome by fully involving people and rewarding them for their efforts

I agree the meat game is without doubt the most ruthless there is. Why do you think I have other players involved?

HKM team consists of abattoir owners, Muslims leaders and lawyers. Two of those lawyers have a background in meat plants.

In case you hadn’t noticed that’s a pretty ruthless team of players also.

Ruthless is the area I most comfortable in. I am used to it. Clearly I have a concern for fair play to animals so decided to put it to good use.

I could tell you how these investigations started, but I won’t bother.

Nickysaid

PALE, I am not "bagging" anyone

Palereplies
I made it 'very clear' I`m not addressing you.

However read back your many comments of Muslims being barbaric and farmers and say to yourself this=

If I were thinking for myself instead of following the trend of leadership - could I do it better? =

Could I perhaps get all the Muslim people onside by forming Animal welfare Muslim groups.?=

Could I educate them and allow them to show the world Muslim people are mostly kind people who care and don’t approve Animal cruelty?=

Could I perhaps find a way to befriend the farmers? =

Could I get to know them and understand their unique problems perhaps? Maybe by working outback on a few stations. =

Do I think by coming in with my universities degree friends to speak down to them as if I walk on a higher moral ground will reach them?

Nickysaid

The NSW Young ..

Pale replies
It was at the time :) Nicky when I find time we`ll post it.( not important)
Another little secret.
If I want something done I just spread the word pale are doing it:)


Voiceless has Katrina ..
Palereplies
Voiceless were naive. Could have made a real difference.

Nicky said
I don't know about the indigenous communities building ships large ...
Palereplies
Of course you don’t. Nor much more.

Put forth by Amjad along with our MOU with Aboriginal Elders and Government.

Again if people had not refused to attend meetings?


You and Dickie are faithful AA WSPA and PETA girls IMOP

Just looked back here where I said we were working to fund decent people like you- silence. No well Gee don’t like your chances pale but thanks.

Your own thread has been suddenly deserted when I told you we were taking advice of the WA case. I would have thought that may interest you.

But hey! thats ok at least you are two of the few people who donate your time to animals so 'anytime' we can help - happy to.

For the Animals!

*if you have that much
property fuel costs should not be too much of a burden, nor should proper animal care*

Nicky, this is where your ignorance is bliss! That station country is often lease country, they might run 1 sheep to 10 acres or whatever. Fuel costs are the
major expense, for regular windmill runs etc. Mustering is a large expense,
margins are slim. There is nobody out there, caring for the wild camels, goats,
donkeys, horses, as you might wish. Wild dogs are a major problem. A sheep
might cut 25$ worth of wool, it would cost you close to 10$, just to shear it
and deliver it from there. Mulesing is in fact proper animal care, as it saves
a lot of suffering. Use Trisolfen by all means, but of course you lot want to
ban mulesing in the first place and that is what the Peta campaign is all about.

*It is a matter of crutching more
frequently, but of course, you people won't pay for that.*

Ah, the ignorance of university types! Have you ever crutched a mob of daggy
sheep Nicky? If they aren’t mulesed, there will be two to three times as many
with dags and it will take 2-3 times longer to crutch them. Shearers are already
saying that if they aren’t mulesed, they will be after 3 to 4 crutchings, as skin
flies off. They also want compensation for the extra cost. Even now there is
a shortage of shearers, who is going to do all this crutching? All things you
people have never even considered.

My experiment with some long tailed unmulesed merino lambs this year, was to
see exactly what would happen. They were all shorn in October. By December,
in the middle of harvest, the first were already fly struck. My harvesting is done
contract, so I had the time to chase after them. On most farms people are harvesting,
the sheep will get checked after harvest.

I’ll tell you what will happen. Large numbers of sheep will die lonely deaths,
due to Peta ignorance

*They are basically scared, terrified of these animals. Which is why they rip their eyes out before slaughter and slash the tendons so othe cow cant kick.
To themselves protect themselves in utter ignorance out of fear.*

That is exactly the point in parts of the ME and is why Australia
could do so much good, by installing proper equipment. That is
exactly why I suggested that spending another 10 million $
on proper equipment, would help lots of animals, not just those
from Australia. I bet you that if the animal welfare lobby
got behind farmers and pushed for that kind of money, for the
Govt it would be peanuts and they would assist. Lots of animals
would benefit. But they won't, so it will have to be done the
hard way, slowly, step by step, as we are doing in Indonesia.

Animal welfare groups are so obsessed with their little agendas
that they seem unable to see the big picture and some steps to
improve things in the ME, for all animals slaughtered there.

Nicky, you're absolutely right, starving dogs to death would not meet my approval.
Of course it would be better to do some background work before getting too excited, there is some ambiguity with some jumping to the worst conclusions because we all have our preconcieved ideas. Not dissimilar to the Live export debate.

http://www.snopes.com/critters/crusader/vargas.asp

http://www.hsus.org/contact_us/humane_society_international.html#Q_dog_artist

So you're family is pretty self-sufficient. Welcome to the farming fraternity.
Have a real look at what you eat and tell me in all honesty what percentage you grow, year round. You may be fine without commercial farmers, what about those that live in apartments, and those where their McMansions take up nearly their whole allotment.
I'll assume you eat no bread without growing wheat, have no rice with your broccoli and don't drink soymilk (real milk being a no-no for you unless you have your own cow).

Yes you hit a nerve because people think they can do without agriculture. Isn't growing your own agriculture? Those that grow their own are called subsistance farmers, and people are free to join the 1/3 or so of the worlds population that are. Hard to see that happening when in the real world millions upon millions are leaving the land for an urban life, essentially being more dependent on the farmers that remain.

Yabby said

That is exactly ..

Pale replies

* OR, we could look at it another way.*

We could say to ourselves it would have a bigger quicker result for our Australian Animals that we have a duty of care for Australia to stop sending them alive!

* As the largest live Animal Exporter in the world is Australia that ought to have a big effect.

* Australia = who has been told three times in the past by Australian paid public funded Senate Enquires into the evil trade To Ban Live Exports “immediately!”

With Australia withdrawing from live animal exports to set a standard it would send out a clear message to others and they would follow. *Yes they would YAbby

*So you now acknowledge that this indeed is the case*

*Thank you Yabby its about time.*

And of course it goes without saying that acknowledgment would extent to the whole of the time that Australia have exported these poor creatures still alive!

Yabby said

*I suggested that spending another 10 million $*

Blimey talk about a bloke would buy a pork pie. A whole Ten Million in a Mulity Trillion Industry?

Your all heart- but I tell you what the ME and Saudis are not broke.

*“Of course” Animal Welfare groups would like to have funding to help every single Animal World wide.

The fact is Yabby considering the fact that the UN cost us in this country for every feed lot diverted - *I think they ought to be banning it inline with Animal Welfare concerns and farming practice and putting in heaps for Animal Welfare

Yabby said

*It will have to be done the hard way, slowly, step by step, as we are doing in Indonesia.*

Pale replies.
How dare you acknowledge that your are aware of what these animals are put through and make out you @ are some type of matters.

We will see about Indonesia and Malaysia etc after Saturday!

Your lot may find out some people may have to rethink their positions.!

Your move

Hehe, I love it, Nicky the subsistance farmer :)

Gertude, your posts are as confusing and irrational as ever,
so I won't even try to make any sense of most of them.

What you did get right was that clearly some facilities for
animal slaughter are unsuitable in the ME, due to no equipment,
so fear is the problem with slaughtermen. Millions of non
Australian animals are slaughtered each year in the ME.

That installing proper equipment could alleviate this suffering
is clearly beyond you or you don't care. Or you are more
obsessed with the live trade, to even consider those millions
of animals. Shame on you.

Yabby

I understand it suites you to say you don’t follow my comments so for the next few posts I will address your comment above again point by point.

You said to me = Yes I agree with you that the workers treat Animals in the Middle East by pulling their eyes out alive and slashing their tendons so they cant kick them
. I agree with you much of the cruelty is out of ignorance and fear=

Here are your words again =
Yabby Said
. I agree with you much of the cruelty is out of ignorance and fear=

*They are basically scared, terrified of these animals. Which is why they rip their eyes out before slaughter and slash the tendons so other cow can’t kick.
To themselves protect themselves in utter ignorance out of fear.*

You went on to say=
Yabby said

that is exactly the point in parts of the ME and is why Australia
could do so much good, by installing proper equipment.

PALE Replied
* OR, we could look at it another way.*

we could stop sending them alive!

* As the largest live Animal Exporter in the world is Australia that ought to have a big effect.

With Australia withdrawing from live animal as we are shamefully the biggest in the world it would improve animal welfare instantly.

You then went on the highlight you agreed that at the moment in Indonesia the animals sent their alive suffer dreadfully – but the lowlife animal shipping agents would continue slowly.

Pale said
The ME is not poor so why should the Australian tax payer pay ANYTHING to them.
Your lot has lied for years saying oh they have no refrigeration Or Oh they must have them alive for religious sacrifices.

To suggest they give a SH about Animal Welfare is a vile lie.

Gertrude, I remind you that the ME is not one place, but many places. You have
rich and you have poor. You cannot compare Saudi Arabia to say Egypt or Oman.

So you don’t have one thing happening in the ME, but many, in different countries,
regions.

Yes, animal cruelty has been documented in some parts of the ME. Lack of equipment and fear are a large part of the problem in some parts. It is immoral
to note it, but not try to do something about it, if we can quite easily do so.

Only a small % of the overall animals slaughtered in the ME are Australian. Some
of those slaughtered are done so in extremely modern facilities, some not. Even
if not a single Australian animal went to the ME, millions would still be slaughtered
there each year. Some people just keep doing what they have doing for hundreds
and thousands of years, some don’t.

I remind you that the Australian Govt has a budget for “foreign aid”. It is huge and
when the tsunami hit in Indonesia, IIRC something like a billion $ was spent by
Australian taxpayers. A tiny donation in comparison, to assist animal welfare in
the ME, would be chicken feed as part of the foreign aid budget.

Wether we send animals to the ME or not, a relatively tiny amount, spent on those
places which are not rich with oil, for simple equipment, sourced from Australian
manufacturers, to improve animal welfare in the ME, makes perfect sense to me.

If you care about animal welfare, then you will want to see animals slaughtered with
proper equipment in the ME, Australian animals or not. 10 million $ in the
foreign aid budget, is quite frankly peanuts.

I remind you once again, only a small % of animals slaughtered in the ME are Australian. By far the majority are not Australian. That does not mean that they
do not matter. If Australia does not do this, who else will?

If you care about animals, then you will support my suggestion.

Hi all
Yabby, not so. If Australia stopped sending animals in their millions to a fate that you openly admit is cruel, a) other countries would stop and take notice, b) they would have several million less animals to brutalize, c) no other country can/will supply the volume Australia does and d) they would have to get over the preference for bloodbaths in the streets (and slaughterhouses) of terrorized animals and buy frozen meat. Simple really. Egypt did, when the outcry blew up there in 2006-2007, Saudi Arabia did in the 1990s.

As for making improvements, as I have said before - you have people who are profiteering from said terrorized animals supposedly implementing "improvements". Not even the blind leading the blind. It's the propaganda machine driving it all. And still no evidence beyond one short video, after which Animals Australia filmed the exact same people going right back to their old ways. CHANGE this thinking? Give us a break!

And did I miss something? Tell me more about Indonesia.

Cheers
Nicky

Yabby said

I remind you once again, only a small % of animals slaughtered in the ME are Australian. By far the majority are not Australian.

That does not mean that they do not matter. If Australia does not do this, who else will?

If you care about animals, then you will support my suggestion.
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 22 April 2008 11:12:32 PM

Pale replies

Before I could think of supporting your suggestions that if Australia does not do this who will.

I would need a hand with figures.

Now Australia exports at the moment to over thirty countries you understand.

I cant see ten million even going close to that. Lets face it thats peanuts Yabby.

Then you would have to consider that even if boxes were installed to bring animal welfare anywhere near half way decent you would need yarding and fences "water and shade" in ALL plants. Not to mention Stunning equiptment.

Then of course they would have to be maintained over the years.
Then of course training .

How about this= before I consider supporting your suggestions you give me some figures IYOP on going that in all the countries remembering more are on the rise. I am not suggesting only Australia companies and tax payers put into this because please remember we are talking about a multi trillian dollar industry. However Australia most certainly could contribute. Anyway let me work out who will help pay ok

Your a figures man so its easier for you to do.
Please remember there are bound to be hidden costs, Er, by that I dont mean the usual.
I mean you have many places and many countries all of which have different slaugthtering locations.


So what I am saying is try to pick some figures to cover extra then perhaps double it.

To me it would be helpful if you gave suggested figures for each country- Just roughly of course.

$ - Country
$ - ME
Like that ok?

Nicky, last time I checked, around 16 million animals were imported by the
ME for slaughter. Even if they did not try to replace a single Australian animal
from other places, that still leaves 12 million non Australian animals. Either
you care about the welfare of those 12 million or you don’t. You clearly don’t.

http://www.aciar.gov.au/

Gertrude, the budget for Australian foreign agricultural aid alone, is over 50
million $ a year. That includes projects like assisting to establish a beef industry
in places like Cambodia and Laos. There is no good reason why animal welfare
cannot be included as part of Australian agricultural aid. In fact if animal welfare
groups really care about animal welfare, it is something that they could lobby for,
which might well receive Govt approval.

I would not even attempt to draw up a country by country budget, as there are people
far more qualified then I am, with more specific knowledge then I have, to do that.
Perhaps the vet stationed in the ME would be a good start.

The basic equipment to restrain livestock, including lead up races etc, is pretty simple
and cheap. Farmers use similar equipment for say crutching sheep, which tips them
over on their sides, in a restrained manner. The steel value might be around 1500$
at most, I could knock one up in my workshop, if I needed to. Including labour etc,
one unit might cost 5-6000$. Cattle equipment is simply a bit larger. Again, there
would be people who have been involved with the Indonesian restraining box
programme, who could draw on that experience.

The thing is, people follow their old cultural practises and do things as dad did, until
somebody comes along and brings about change. Australia has the expertise to
do something and suggest the best changes. If you want change to animal welfare,
then do something about it in a positive way. 10 million $ would buy one huge amount
of equipment and it is peanuts, given the overall Australian foreign aid
budget. In Indonesia now, they are teaching the locals to make that-equipment.

Yabby

( I am thinking) We are talking about peoople who loan funds to Governments Here. They are not broke. Let me think.

Its not widely known but Malaysia accepts bolt stunning and IMOP they will be the Halal hub.
This is why I approached Malaysia then Saudi to send through JAKIM to ME instead of how you want to do it.
Everything 'was' on track but the plants are wanted there instead of here. Clearly I am not happy about that etc...

Indonesia and much of the Islamic world, Malaysia is among the most politically stable and economically healthy states, and is also empowered with other advantages.

At a modest 25 million people, Malaysia launched massive projects in agriculture and is channelling billions of dollars into universities and laboratories for agriculture.

The NCER (The Northern Corridor Economic Region) and the ECER (The Eastern Corridor Economic Region) collectively will involve eight states in the Malaysian peninsular at the collective sum of approximately USD $85 billion dollars, a large stake of it specifically in the pursuit of optimising agriculture’s potential.

Earlier this year, the Indonesia parliament discussed the draft of Halal bill for mandatory Halal certification on food products.

The debate favours to agree on mandatory certification, but with the consideration to avoid high-cost economy for Halal certification, and that the government should liberalise Halal certification.

The Chief of Indonesian Consumer Foundation (YLKI), Huzna Zahir, said that there should not be a monopolised certification, to ensure that it will not be a burden to producers, especially small-scale manufacturers.

Independencia Alimentos, Brazil’s third largest meat exporter has one plant approved for Halal production and export to Malaysia, out of a total of seven within the group.

To be approved as a Halal facility for Malaysia, they had to invest in a special restraining box to improve the animal’s standing position, while being stunned prior to slaughter.

“This they did mind,you complained it wasnt cheap.

It was agreed that besides being animal-friendly, the special restraining box also protects the workers while performing the slaughter.

Another difference is stunning prior to slaughter.

Gertrude, you are ignoring my point completely. I am not talking
of Malaysia, not even Australian livestock, but the 12 million
non Australian livestock. Some might be slaughtered in rich countries
in super plants. We don't need to worry about those. But clearly
some are slaughtered in small outfits which are not rich and where
we could make a difference.

Those are the places where AA go with their camera. The places
that you complain about and think are horrific. Okay, so why not
do something about those places?

If the animal welfare movement are really concerned about animal
welfare, then they will see my point and support the proposal.
If they are mostly a bunch of vegans, then of course they won't
have anything to do with animal slaughter and would rather let
those animals in the ME suffer, then help to address the problem.

Vegans of course would like to shut all us farmers down too.
Perhaps sending WA farmers broke is their goal, given that they
think that we are evil.

Well there it is, a way to improve animal welfare in the ME,
for all non Australian animals. Either you people care about
animals or you don't. 12 million animals matter, if not to you,
then certainly to me. Those 12 million will still be going through,
no matter what the live trade does.

Yabby

Yes all right, I hear you, I will go a little slower sorry.

I wasnt 'ignoring' you either, you were talking about Indonesian.

Then again if your not talking about Malyasia how can I talk about Halal to you.

They will be the hub of Halal World wide Yabby make no mistake.

Halal will go from there to ME.

I am prepaired to lobby for funds to improve plants world wide.

Thats what were were going to do with the funding from HKM anyway

I was however pointing out none of these countries are without funding.

Certainly not Indonesia. Although of course they are not in as strong position as others.

Yabby for Halal plants theres simply no shortage of funding.

The thing is they dont and wont spend it on our Animal Welfare standards.

They are still moaning about that one box they had to purchase- and they are rolling in money.

More chilled Halal will come out of Brazil and go via there and jAKIM if we dont get plants running from Australia to JAKIM.

Jakim are the key for Australian Halal to be accepted .

Also Yabby, I think everybody wants to improve animal welfare world wide.

Not just for live exports but many other projects like the bears etc.

Anyway to get back on track re your suggestions.

I would still need some figures. You said the industry are working hard to introduce this. Then they must have some figures somewhere.

That might not be the answer you want from me. I said I wont walk away from a chance to make some type of impovments for animals. So we can at least discuss it sensibly.

Myself, I will have a better idea of where things are going after the weekend.
Seems to me you lot have already got it worked out= For Australia to supply the raw materials and other Countries to Value add.
To be honest

Hi all
Yabby, you can be amazingly obtuse, or is it that you do not read properly, or understand what is being said to you? Obviously no animal welfare organization is going to provide support, material or otherwise, for a trade they believe to be inherently cruel. Throwing in the Tim D'Arcy "red herring" that if they cared about animal welfare in the Middle East they would contribute is fatuous in the extreme.

It has been made perfectly clear, time and time again, that you cannot change the thinking of these people, that Australia's influence is, and has always been, minimal (in fact, they are laughing at Australia's pitiful efforts; only we know that is is just a publicity exercise), in dealing with Australian animals, never mind those of other countries. Are you saying that animal welfare organizations would succeed where the mighty MLA has failed?

If Australia stopped sending them, it would be sending a clear message that the brutality is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. What other countries would then be forced to do is consider their own positions in the light of that message. New Zealand already has woken up to that not too difficult notion.

Cheers
Nicky

*It has been made perfectly clear, time and time again, that you cannot change the thinking of these people*

Nicky, name me a nation on Earth, that has not changed its thinking
over time. The ME is just like Australia, in that it is made up
of all sorts of people. Good people, nasty people, etc. etc.
Your stereotyping tens of millions of people as all being exactly
the same, is hogwash.

*it would be sending a clear message that the brutality is unacceptable and will not be tolerated.*

Rubbish, they would go on doing what they have done for hundreds
and thousands of years, with 12 million animals sourced from
outside Australia, plus another 4 million from other countries
that have livestock in places like Africa. Money talks and oil
money talks loudly. As we speak, the Americans are funding
Ethiopia to massively increase its livestock output, with the ME
the destination of choice.

*What other countries would then be forced to do is consider their own positions in the light of that message*

Hehe, I can just see that happening in Sudan, Ethopia, China,
Somalia, Kenya and other suppliers. Nicky, time to grow up dear :)

.

Poor Yabby, you really should understand that patronising does not win you the argument. It just shows that you HAVE no valid argument, and it is your only tactic when you are backed into a corner.

In your post you have totally contradicted yourself; did you not read it before you hit "add comment"?

You cannot change the way these people regard animals, you only have to look at the impassive women and children watching the torture to recognize that it is a way of life. If they have less animals available to them they will have to learn to live with frozen meat, and find another way of life (and of entertaining themselves)

Cheers
Nicky

Yabby

For people to change they must first be taught.

You have often suggested to Nicky that Animal Welfare groups educate ME people - isnt that right?

I think Nicky would argue we need to clean up our own back yard before we attack others.

Considering Australia is the largest live exporter of Animals World wide, dont you think its just a tad arrogant.

I mean do you not see how that might rub some people up the wrong way.

Then again on the other hand you argue what about all the other animals.

You accuse animal welfare groups saying they do not care.

Its very clear that Animal Welfare groups world wide do care.



Now looking at it from all angles, and not taking either side, I have come up with these facts and thoughts.

Australia`s withdrawal of live exports would create an inbalance of supply would wide.( Yes it would Yabby long term)

It would have a domino effect causing Halal shortage. That would be more than a little inconvient.

It would be a major drama especially as the demand for Halal increases world wide.

We are close to Maylasia, who eventually will be the hub of Halal.

So just imagine if congress for eg decided to seek a ban on live exports that would bring much things back to Australia.

Then=Australia and Maylasia would become the world supplier,- or one of the largest at very least.

Now that might not get the tick of aproval from USA

Still its food for thought. We are looking at hundred and hundreds of billions of dollars.

Plenty to inist that ME plants comply to world wide accreditation standards.

Plenty of funding to build their own label Halal meats plants to their own standards after a international accreditation was introduced.

One thing I am sure of they wouldnt be asking MLA and livecorpe to enforce it:)

Sorry Yabbs Not your night.

Ah Nicky, but you again missed the point. Nations change and
influence from other nations matters over time. People can be
influenced in their behaviour. In the ME today, they are hopping
onto the internet, using mobile phones, eating Big Macs and
drinking Coke, amongst many other things. All due to outside
influence, not with a big stick approach either.

If you want to change slaughter practises, so introduce equipment
which is cheap, simple and effective, for a win-win situation
all round. Wrestling every sheep down to slaughter it is really
hard work, there is no need to do it. Arabs are not silly, they
will adopt ideas that save them hard work.

So there was no contradiction in my post at all. I remind you
that when the West was in the dark ages, we progressed eventually
by learning from others, including the Far East and ME.

Hi all
Interesting observations. Yabby, perhaps you could expand on what exactly we have learned (as a Western culture) from the Middle East and Far East (not including some aspects of technology and Chinese food). Big Macs and Coke also are not suggestive or poor countries lacking refrigeration, obviating one of the arguments constantly propounded by you people for live exports.

Let me know when they have entirely stamped out the practices, in every country to which Australia exports animals, of publicly flogging female rape victims and stoning them to death and forcing women to cover their whole faces and bodies, and the prohibition on their being out in public unescorted by a male relative. I mean entirely and I mean all those countries.

PALE, some interesting observations. You are correct in saying that I would argue that Australia has a long way to go in terms of farmed animal welfare; it is sad that there is one set of rules for "companion" animals and no set of rules of any meaning for farmed animals. But are you suggesting that exporting animals live to Malaysia is a solution to live exports to the Middle East?

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky Said

But are you suggesting ...
Pale

No Nicky, certainly not. Although there is at the moment a conflict of interest with some and major headache for us under our mou.

I think the five or eight plants being worked on at the moment there will have to be turned into Halal carcass boning plants and Halal meat distributors.

Whole carcass from Australia to Malaysia was also the proposal (after our Australian plants) service what they can.

While it isn’t widely known Malaysia does accept the bolt method. No not all however. They are modern enough in forward thinking to accommodate this. AQIS will tell you that are impossible to come to agreements regarding slaughter with JAKIM etc...

Again I totally disagree. There are some that are difficult yes- but remember these are savvy people and the very ones that agreed to look at the gas.

..While the West and China are sort of rejected in Halal products- Malaysia is accepted.

So in short just imagine if Malaysia and the world wide Muslims introduced a international accreditation standard for Halal.

They are fully aware of the focus on animal welfare. The are smart and often opportunists, clever to a fault.

The thought of world wide promotions. Promoting them as the number one human product appeals. NASA and HIS NSW Verna’s labeling tick of approval holds big appeal.
Wonderful work from the Human Society.

I fully agree with Yabby, that we must do something for the other twelve million animals etc.
However I know better than to think they wont resent US doing it.
No much better to improve the multi trillion dollar industry by bring a international Halal accreditation certificate.

Let Allah spread the good message of better animal care. Especially to MLA Livecourpe and Elders AWB etc.

We know how much these companies respect the ME:) I am sure they will be delighted that all their hard efforts will be done for them.
Perhaps they might find a job in USA ‘who used to run and drive live exports’ and call it er, trade?……

*I fully agree with Yabby, that we must do something for the other twelve million animals etc.*

Well that is great news Gertude!, for clearly the rest of the
Austrlalian animal liberation movement, don't give a stuff,
or they would at least make an attempt to change things and
help to modernise ME slaughter practises, where they don't
yet exist. 12 million animals matter in the end, Australian or not.

Nicky hoping that Ethiopia, Kenya, Sudan etc, will "consider their own positions,"
has got buckleys chance, quite frankly. There are good reasons why NZ does not
bother with live exports. They have a captive market in Europe which pays more
then the ME, unlike Australia, which does not have a quota to speak of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_science

A few details about what the Arabs did, whilst we were burning people at the stake
and other similar pastimes of the Catholic Church, when the Church ruled everything
and Europe was in the dark ages.

So when did they last stone women, or stop them driving, or force them with all sorts
of things in Dubai, Nicky? The ME is made up of all sorts of cultures, it is not one
single place, with one single type of behaviour.

Yes, you have some very rich, some very poor, some religious fanatics, some not,
but then the USA has the same.

Some have refrigeration, some don’t, some prefer fresh meat, some go to the supermarket.

The only “lesson” that was learned from closing down the Saudi live trade, was
that WA livestock prices collapsed, hundreds of thousands of sheep were put
on trucks to undergo 3000km journeys and farmers lost bigtime. But then as you
have no problem with WA farmers going broke, you would be cheering. Not so
for more normal Australians, who still value the role of agriculture.

Yabbs Said

Well that is great news Gertude!, for clearly the rest of the
Austrlalian animal liberation movement, don't give a stuff,

Gertude Replies
Yabby, I dont think even you believe that so why say it. I think what you really mean is your tired of people not listening to your side of the argument.
There is no way that they want animals dying slowly here in Australia either. Surley some of the farmers could have taken them by the hand by now and lead them in a little more informed direction.

Mind you I have no way of knowing if anybody has tried. I sent one farmers off in that direction years ago but I never heard back from him. ( In hind sight thats possibly way- Funny as)


They need to get some country people involved as well as high eybrows and professors uni kids and accademics.

They need to get experts on these subjects and to understand many of them dont even read and write- let alone do subs for enquires gov and the likes.

So the real question we must ask ourselves is this= While we have some fun with them isnt it pretty clear that there is an absense of farmers who have come out in support of better treatment for their animals.

I acknowledge there is at least at the top a severe personality problem within animal welfare. However maybe thats just from seeing cruelty for so many years and being unable to do much about it.


We have only had Two farmers on this forum speak out about it.
Those are PF and Free Ranger.
Why is that do you think? I mean why cant the farmers take these girls by the hand and say to them- This way girls- You doing a good job.


Why cant the farmers see its the Government making it impossible to open plants and blocking meat wokers that is the 'real problem.'

Why farmers get behind them and show them where to lobby.

Why cant they acknowledge that more plants will give the farmers a better price.

Hi all
Yabby, when were you last in the Middle East, including Dubai, to be able to be able to make such "informed" comment? I don't know when the last woman was stoned to death in Dubai (although it probably wouldn't be that hard to find out; after all, we know it is more than possible in Saudi Arabia) and nor do you, but don't try and tell us it doesn't happen in Dubai and other Middle Eastern countries.

Citing one country which may be slightly more enightened that some others is another of your "red herrings", and you know it. All Middle Eastern and many SE Asian countries operate under Sharia Law (you know, the law they would have us all live under), so that punishment is contained in the statutes (and wilfully applied at the whim of Sharia judges).

The only reason that the sheep were forced onto 3,000km truck journeys across the country when the Saudi trade last shut down was because you farmers put them on the trucks to do it. No other reason. You bred more sheep than you needed on your side of the country as usual, and that was your solution - you don't care about the welfare of the animals or you wouldn't do that either, it is just more manifest cruelty.

I have a great solution to all this for you, and you and I will then never have another argument - grow crops/vegetables and export them instead.

Cheers
Nicky

FYI
Nicky blame farmers=

ABA Questions the Silence of MLA on the ACCC Grocery Inquiry, Welcomes the Senate Inquiry into Meat Marketing and calls for a Royal Commission into the Rorts
Published: 15 Apr 2008
News ID: 10648
ABA Chairman, Brad Bellinger today said, In the midst of the most searching ACCC inquiry into Supermarket dominance of Australian retailing MLA, the producer funded meat industry body, has said nothingno submission, no releases nothing.

Whilst media across Australia featured ABA submission to the ACCC Inquiry, Rural Press followed the MLA line by publishing virtually nothing.

Mr Bellinger said, The NFF submission to the ACCC is a featherweight one reflecting the long, close association between senior NFF officials and supermarket chiefs.

ABA presented a very detailed submission, which showed that the US consumer is paying about half what the Australian consumer is paying for his/her meat, yet the Australian producer is presently getting 25-40% less than the US producer - with no subsidies involved! ABA research into the UK and Irish margins also have highlighted that both the Australian producer and consumer are being rorted.

He continued, MLA uses millions of dollars of producer levy money to advertise meat for supermarkets. MLA annually justifies these large levies ($5 per beast sold) by pointing out their consultant's figures showing increased expenditure on meat.'

The producer is a three time loser -he gets less for his cattle each year, he pays the large levy (plus much more for the new ear tag system) and then has to pay more for his beef at a retail outlet.'

Mr Bellinger continued, ' ABA welcomes the announcement of a Senate Inquiry into the Meat industry. The last inquiry in 2002, made eight recommendations including to make the so-called Peak Councils more accountable but the National Party Ministers refused to implement any of them. Now the Senate is trying again.

ABA
........Royal Commission can get to the bottom of the massive rip off.

'ABA is calling for a Royal Commission with powers as broad as the last one, conducted by Judge Woodward in 1982', Mr Bellinger recommended.

Nicky, the real red herring, is you trying to mix up religious beliefs with meat
production and consumption. They are separate issues. Other people have
different cultures and customs. Much as you want your culture to be respected,
when people come here, clearly it is their business when it comes to their cultures
and religious beliefs. In Australia I would be thrown in jail for marrying more then
one woman, in the ME it would not be a problem. Your opinion that one is right
and the other is wrong, is simply to do with the fact of how you were raised. Had
you been born in say Iraq, you might well be a devout Muslim :)

Why on earth would you want to deny my sheep the happy lives that they lead, chomping pasture and admiring the scenery, for most of their lives? Ok throw
in a bit of sex now and then, they would lead far less stressful lives then you do!

Herbivores grazing pasture is the most natural thing in the world. Sadly your lack
of knowledge about farming and soils is why you make such ignorant comments.
WA soils are far more suited to a crop-pasture rotation, then to continuos cropping.
Legumes put nitrogen back into soils, sheep are the best thing for controlling weeds
and cutting down on artificial fertilisers and pesticides. Why not farm with nature,
rather then against nature?

Global demand for meat is huge, most of it factory farmed. Ours is the opposite,
naturally produced, a win-win situation for livestock and farmers. Would you rather
have had no life, just because the worms are going to chew you up one day?

I sold some lambs locally two years ago and was paid 35$ for them. The same lambs
in Victoria were worth 110$ to the farmer there. The same lambs in the US, were
worth 200$ to the grower there. All these lambs went to the same market by the
way. So is the problem with me the grower, or with the way that our meat is marketed and distributed?

Hi all
Yabby, once again, you attribute characteristics to me that you know nothing about. What makes you think I HAVE any religious beliefs? I have certain moral convictions which clearly state that publicly flogging and stoning female rape victims is wrong; do you regard that as nothing more than a "cultural incongruence"?

You also took me a bit too seriously when I suggested that you farm crops/vegetables and export them instead of animals, but let it pass. As it happens, I read about the agriculture you describe in a journal yesterday. I'm sure your sheep lead relatively happy (albeit very short) lives - after you've probably mulesed and castrated them without anaesthesia and before you load them onto trucks for who knows what sort of journey to what sort of slaughter. Now, if you can tell those of us who know nothing how we could campaign about Trisolfen, and whom, I think you would find that most of us, sheltered lives and ignorance notwithstanding, would be glad to do so. I would especially like to know how it works, how well it works and how long it works for though. Never let it be said that we don't care.

The meat industry in WA is a more difficult problem, I'm afraid.

PALE, I suspect it is highly unlikely that there will be a Royal Commission into the activities of MLA, there are too many politicians too close to it.

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky said
PALE, I suspect it is highly unlikely that there will be a Royal Commission into the activities of MLA, there are too many politicians too close to it.
pale comments

While agreeing with your copmment Nicky it is people like brad who know what they are talking about.
My reason for posting that was to point out that only by working together with people who fully understand the industry and what is going on will anything change.

Your not going to like this next comment but it has to be said.
Sadly Nicky there has been far too much demage done between 'some' 'most' animal welfare groups to ever be invited to join them in a united public plea for a Royal Commission.
However on the other hand that doesnt stop members of the public writing to lobby for a Royal Commission either.

It also I would 'hope' me make some rethink their positions if they seriously wish to succeed in bring this whole issue to the public.

The average member of the public would indeed stand up for the local abattoir ownders farmers etc against the vetted interests and favours tossed out by MLA for live export shipping agents etc.

However where you guys get knocked out so easily is by your quite clear anti muslim anti farmer position.

I have already addressed on the other thread to you about the Government being driven by the industry. I explained to you that the industry consists of muslims and Farmers by large and that this is the area that the alternative must come.

I know you mean well for the Animals but Nicky your policies must change big time and in a hurry.
Again this is why we work with RSPCA QLD. We are a main stream bunch who want animals slaughtered as close to origen as possible in the kindest method possible.
However we need the help of the muslim and farmers to do it.
So your people bagging them is just plain stupid.

Hi all
PALE, you really are a hard case. Just because I, and some animal welfare organizations disagree with you does not mean we have to "re-think our positions". I, and they, simply disagree with you and that is that. You do it your way, and they will do it theirs, as I will. Nor does any of have to be "invited" to call for a Royal Commission if they or I were to choose to join such a call.

Just because you happen to believe that this person from ABA "knows what he is talking about" does not mean that other animal welfare groups or I agree with that either. Nor have they, or I, expressed anti-Muslim or anti-farmer positions, merely (in my case, I do not speak for others) that I dislike certain activities that some Muslims and some farmers are involved in.

As for the RSPCA, it is tending to bring itself undone in every state without any help from anyone. I have already outlined why.

You need to learn to respect the views of others and the ways others choose to go about doing what they do.

Nicky

Nicky, what you are, is extremely fortunate to be living in one of the most secular
countries on earth, namely Australia. People are the product of their genes and
their environment, so had your parents been devout JWs or Bretheren followers,
who brainwashed you as a 5 year old, you might be quite a different person then
you are today. What we can show, is that 95% of people follow the religion that
they were brought up with.

The struggle between the religious and the secular has been going on for centuries.
In the West, we have had our wars etc. The Catholic Church used to burn people
like me, for expressing our opinions :(

In the ME that struggle still goes on, with the same divisions as we have here. I
recently saw a survey, about how many people in Iran, actually attend a mosque each
week. It was around 30%, lower then the number of Americans who go to church.
Head for the US bible belt and you will find as much religious extremism, as you
find anywhere in the ME. Even on OLO we have our religious extremists, thankfully
they don’t run the Govt!

As to Trisolfen, the woman who developed it, you could google her name, sounds
a pretty reasonable type, perhaps you can contact her for all the info that you want.

So what if sheep go on a truck? Humans travel on trucks too.

Yes we eat sheep. Some as teenagers, some go into pies etc, before they get too
old and die of old age. That is kinder then what we to humans, ie. let them die
slowly as we watch. Fact is that only so many sheep can enjoy the scenery at one
time, too many is not sustainable. Yes their lives end, so will yours, if you are
hit by a proverbial bus. That’s life. That does not mean that you haven’t enjoyed
your life to this point. It’s the same with sheep.

Hi all
PALE; you really are a hard case.

Pale -Yup hope so Nicky.

Nicky

Just because I, and some animal welfare organizations disagree with you does not mean we have to "re-think our positions".

Pale
Disagree, Oh now I see. What is it that they disagree about?

Nicky said
I, and they, simply disagree with you and that is that.

Pale
There’s that word disagrees again.

So we will wait to see what it is you and they disagree about
Thanks

Just the fundamental point will do – tar.

(I take it then that they always must have others agree with them then. Would that be fair to say?

I mean, if you disagree, or have a difference of opinion then I guess you’re not likely to be viewed in an agreeable manner then are you.

Nicky said

Nor does any of have to be "invited" to call for a Royal Commission if they or I were to choose to join such a call.

Pale replies

No of course not Nicky. It would be awful to put forward suggestions that might help the Animals – wouldn’t it. What a dreadful thing to do to ‘suggest’ that people look towards others in the industry to point out MLA are favoring live exports.
I mean just because they are complaining bitterly about mla – silly me to think they might want something of more substance to support their complaints.

Nicky said

Just because you happen to believe that this person from ABA "knows what he is talking about" does not mean that other animal welfare groups or I agree with that either
Pale replies
No, most certainly not!

Nicky said
Nor have they, or I, expressed anti-Muslim or anti-farmer positions, merely (in my case, I do not speak for others) that I dislike certain activities that some Muslims and some farmers are involved in.

pale replies

I see the old email system still works- wise call.

Really, PALE, you need to get off whatever it is you are on. Your sad attempts at sarcasm waste so much space and do you no credit. I have absolutely no idea why other groups disagree with you. I have speculated about that, but I am not in their confidence. Nor am I going to repeat myself about why I disagree with you.

Just how much chance do you think you have at getting a Royal Commission into MLA, and what, in reality, would it achieve for animsls? It's just yet another PALE attempt at self-aggrandizement. Politicians will take absolutely no notice and you should know that. PALE has no influence with any of them and you know that too.

I have no idea what you are talking about with the "email address" stuff, but don't bother to enlighten me. I deal with enough rubbish in the course of my days.

Nicky

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200508/s1449086.htm

Sheep smarter than people think: researcher
By Judy Skatssoon for ABC science online

Sheep are not as dumb as many people think, says a researcher who has put a group of Australian merinos to the test and found they can learn and remember.

PhD student Caroline Lee, who works with CSIRO Livestock Industries found sheep cannot only work out how to get through a complicated maze but they get better every time they do it.

"We basically showed that sheep are smarter than people think," she said.

"There's this common myth that sheep are dumb ... but they've actually got quite high level cognition and learning abilities, especially in relation to spatial memory."

Ms Lee tested 60 sheep by putting them at the start of maze about 18 metres by eight metres, from which they could see their companions at the other end through open-bar fences.

Researchers continue to warn of the serious global epidemics now occurring where livestock pathogens are on the increase and are infecting and killing humans.

Scientists it appears, have reached a consensus on Crohn's disease, an incurable and debilitating gastric disease in humans, which they believe is a result of exposure to infected livestock which carry Johnes disease.

It is disturbing to learn of an author publicly accusing Australia of deliberately exporting animals (afflicted with Johnes disease) to the Middle East:

"Why have the Australians performed this dastardly deed?" asks the author.

"Perhaps they figure that those Arabs just don't know any better, so why not? The desire for dollars betrays their act of bioterrorism. This is a crime against mankind."

http://naturalsolutionsradio.com/articles/article.html?id=5371&filter=

http://comdev.osu.edu/~news/story.php?id=1895

Researchers, Drs Karesh and Cook, said the costs of livestock diseases to the international community has been staggering. The rash of livestock pathogens that have spread around the world in the last decade have cost some $100 billion, excluding SARS.

British scientist John Collinge, predicts thousands of future human deaths from mad cow disease caused by contaminated beef eaten between 1980 and 1986. He has warned that bovine spongiform encephalopathy and variant Cruzfeldt-Jakob disease, the human version of the disease, appear to have a long incubation period that could stretch to decades in some people.


This month, a Canadian woman was diagnosed with BSE.

Last November, Australia exported cattle which had the potential to wipe out New Caledonia's entire herd with tick fever.

"They (Australia) have an approach of treating the animals whereas we, in New Caledonia, have a policy of complete eradication of the disease," New Caledonia's Agriculture Minister Eric Babin said last week ahead of the Australian mission.

"But the Imazol treatment was finally the preferred solution, mainly because it would be less traumatizing, New Caledonia's government announced on Thursday. The treatment would be applied to as many as 4,500 cattle."

Australian taxpayers have picked up this bill for yet another blunder by the industry of untouchables and probably an additional bill to compensate New Caledonian farmers.

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/tas/content/2006/s2195651.htm

Hi all
Dickie, that was just another example of the "best livestock export standards in the world", Once again AQIS was "asleep on the job" (although they aren't on the job all that much, and when they are they don't do it very well.

ABC TV produced a television series last year called "Rain Shadow" which depicted a fictional drought stricken area of South Australia, and that made it very clear that sheep with OJD are sent off on live exports as a matter of routine. They are very ill before they are even loaded for transport.

Cheers
Nicky

Ah Nicky, as expected, you will even believe fiction to try and run
down your favourite hate, the live export trade.

What evidence have you that people knowingly exported sheep with
OJD and how did they know those sheep were positive?

Good evening, Yabby - I've missed you. Although that particular program was based on fiction, it was very much represented as a matter of course, as a way of disposing of diseased sheep. And if they did, and do, I reckon it's rough justice (for the recipients who may get Crohn's Disease) and it's only a matter of time before your trade shoots itself in the foot.

Was it this thread or the other one where you asked if I approve of hitting lambs on the head? Of course I don't. What a silly question.

But if an animal is really suffering and beyond the assistance of a veterinarian (although you guys aren't big on calling in a veterinarian for the odd sick lamb, I guess) than as long as it is not suffering and does not regain consciousness, then I think there's not a whole lot of dofference between that and a gun. But that only applies to lambs, of course, and only in exigent circumstances where there is no alternative. For larger animals it would have to be a gun.

The lambs you knock over the head are better off than the ones you put on ships, of course.

Cheers
Nicky

In case anyone actually takes dickie seriously:

2007 Lack of link between Crohns and johnes-
http://www.acca.net.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=23&Itemid=59

"This month, a Canadian woman was diagnosed with BSE."

What, no link even? I would have thought that statement irregular since Bovine relates to COWS. CJD is the human equivalent.

"Australia exported cattle which had the potential to wipe out New Caledonia's entire herd with tick fever."
sure, if no one did anything about it. It hasn't wiped out Aussie cattle, has it? AQIS made a mistake vaccinating instead of drenching. There are 1100 cattle involved.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23402321-16953,00.html

I guess the intelligence of sheep is relative. Some look down on them and some look up to them. I suppose you'll feel better about live exports if we look for dumb genes instead of smart genes.

Nicky, keyword here - fiction. I've often wondered about your sources of info ;)

Morning All
Dickie
Your line of posting is stop on. ‘Of course’ we are exporting diseases to these people. It doesn’t under go the same level of health and safety.
When the last bloke died who was working in a plant down South all sorts of internal warnings were faxed “ Very quietly to the local doctors in the surrounding areas

. Yes, the told everybody- Er, bar the public of course.

Now guess what they did with the rest of the meat? You guessed it loaded it onto a ship and sent it off the the Middle East.


I can recall years ago sending out memos to Al Jazeera to warn them they should watch out for the health of their poor unsuspecting people who just go into a supermarket the same as we do.

I will post the document up here in the next post.( I think its at the other office.
Yabby you have still not explained why you cant carry a gun and other farmers to put animals down? Are you frightened of guns Yabbs;)
Keep an eye out for =
Australia Doesn’t Want You To Know About
( I will post it soon)
Yabby Rojo especially down there your soils all wrong for high breeding. Your stock get sick with pneumonia from the dust and scorns of anthrax and this leads to other diseases.

TB has many a name and its common cause is infected meats.
The management dust drought and other issues are a big problem for the people eating these meat products at the other end.
Dust and mis management is also one reason for the high loss of lambs. That and over breeding.
There is bugger all management zero care and only a few left with old basic knowledge which the others don’t listen to anyway .

*you asked if I approve of hitting lambs on the head? Of course I don't. What a silly question.*

Ah but farmer Nicky, you haven't yet said what you would do with
your orphan lambs. Take em all home, leave them for the foxes and
eagles to ripp to bits, or detroy em. Getrude might lend you her
portable gas chamber :)

*although you guys aren't big on calling in a veterinarian for the odd sick lamb,*

Last time I had the vet here for an autopsy, it was around 250$
for a sheep worth 20 bucks. So farmer Nicky, would you call the
vet and spend 200$ or so, every time one of your 20$ sheep got
sick?

Gertrude, handguns are illegal and carrying a rifle whilst swapping
vehicles 5 times a day, is not a practical option. We are farmers,
not hunters

Thanks so much for the additional link regarding Crohn’s disease and the related Johne's disease, Rojo. I see the ACCC employed the Commonwealth’s chief medical officer to assist with the research.

This imprudent move to commission a chief medical officer creates a conflict of interest. It is common knowledge that senior public servants and academics are constantly gagged and deprived of their right to free speech by our corrupt state and federal governments Some have been threatened with demotions - even dismissal:

http://africa.reuters.com/world/news/usnSYD230970.html
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/free-speech-being-whittled-away/2007/11/05/1194117939539.html?page=2
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2008/s2176903.htm
http://www.huliq.com/44227/government-found-interfere-public-health-research

Refreshingly, South Australia’s Primary Industry and Resources department was extremely forthright in publicising its opinion on Western Australia's disgraceful handling of animals suffering Ovine Johne's Disease:

In WA:

"• Infected farms have no restrictions.
• Infected farms do not have to inform neighbours.
• Infected farms can sell at saleyards without placarding.
• Neighbours to infected farms do not have to test.
• Animal Health Statements are voluntary and rarely used.
• All testing of ‘at risk’ farms has stopped."

And more at:

http://www.pir.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0015/24081/ojd_bulletin_nov_04.pdf

"But there's nothing unusual about sending BJD cattle to countries like the United Arab Emirates, according to Dennis Hayes from the Australian Quarantine and Inspection Service." (ABC Rural)

In case anyone continues to take YOUR defence of this cruel and incompetent industry seriously Rojo, I would encourage them to read your own links you have kindly provided which state:

“CONTROLS have been placed on the movement of cattle in New Caledonia after an embarrassing bungle by Australian quarantine officials exposed its cattle herd to tick fever.

“The bungle followed widespread criticism of Australian Quarantine and Inspection Service last year after equine influenza entered Australia and paralysed the multi-million-dollar racing industry for months.

To add to the Laurel and Hardy comedies Rojo, you state: "I guess the intelligence of sheep is relative. Some look down on them and some look up to them. I suppose you'll feel better about live exports if we look for dumb genes instead of smart genes."

Please, may I suggest you present your venal and vacuous argument to those with an IQ below 70?

Yabby
Hand guns are not illegal you just need a license.
Having a gun to put animals down should not be compulsory.
You can keep them easily and safely in a lockable pouch. Just don’t loose the key case you bump a eastern brown:)

Oh, but hang on that’s right ‘they are protected’ ``STREWTH```. Just goes to show how much our laws need to be amended.

We kiss crocs protect snakes at let old breeders and little poddy`s and lambs die slowly in paddocks. Then we consider it a small blessing if farmers bash their brains in ‘because they are not forced ‘to carry a suitable weapon.

You breed them and you care for them. Otherwise go to goal. Yes that will be the new laws in Australia one day and the sooner and the better. I agree it’s better than intensive farming. As well I agree with Nicky anything is better than live exports.

Anyway Yabbs, you give your own injections don’t you? You can’t run a farm with out that. Who gives your penicillin, Bute, tetanus, anti inflammatory etc?
You probably don’t buy Bute ah, after all what’s a little pain. Surely again it should be compulsory to do an IV course if you’re a farmer. Then you could carry a little green satchel on that pouch with your syringes. Just make sure you don’t feel a little prick in the figure whilst administering :)
While you’re doing that Yabbs the very skilled NCCAW will be drawing up the new codes of practice.
They will be taking into account the acreage, soils tests blood tests and making sure grazing doesn’t get past a certain level. Taking on board the amount of stock history of the property area. Then you will all be saved the heart ache of having too many lambs to knock on the head.

What Australia doesn't want you to know




Veterinary Newsletter to members in Northern Territory and in bordering towns, to livestock industry groups in the Northern Territory, and to departmental staff.


Department of Agriculture - press release
"Even the new techniques used to identify anthrax in the environment are unlikely to yield positive answers as to how the disease ended up in the State's south-west border region.
"We'll probably never know the definitive answer to that," said Department of Primary Industries veterinarian Lee Taylor, who has been closely involved in investigating the current anthrax cases. "That's just the nature of the disease we're dealing with."
The January 9 outbreak, the first in the State since 1993, affected two properties - at Dirranbandi and Wandoan. It triggered a preventive program in which 1020 head of cattle were vaccinated and temporary quarantine restrictions placed on stock movements from them.
Dr Taylor said newly implemented laboratory technology had been used in the current outbreak to find anthrax spores in the soil around animal remains long past their traditional pathological use-by time.
As to how and why the outbreak happened, knowledge of the disease and its history in Australia pointed to possibilities, he said.
"In this outbreak, tracebacks have confirmed that anthrax was not introduced through recent cattle or sheep movements from interstate or any other means. It has most likely been in the soils of that area for a long time. An animal could have died there years ago and the spores from where it died may have only recently become available to livestock."
He said most anthrax cases recorded in Australia were seen in what was known as the anthrax belt of New South Wales and Victoria. Conditions in these areas favoured survival of anthrax spores in the soil. The soil pH was alkaline and the soils prone to flooding.
"Anthrax tends to occur along waterways and their associated floodplains during the summer months in this area. The infection can be released from soil in areas where animals died many years ago, possibly by earthworks or other soil disturbance.
To Be contiuned

continued
"Extremes of rainfall, either too much or too little, can set off outbreaks by either releasing spores in the soil, or concentrating stock around water and supplementary feeding points where they ingest the bacterial spores in soil that is accidentally consumed."
Dr Taylor said the property at Dirranbandi, where the current events, started had a lot of these factors present.
"Another interesting feature is the presence of an old stock route through the property. Travelling stock was the way anthrax was spread after it was first introduced to Australia in the mid-1800s. In this case, there is nothing to suggest that the problem was related to stock deaths on the stock route."
He said the Wandoan cattle initially diagnosed with anthrax were agisted on the Dirranbandi property for a period of time during 2001. Just before leaving the property, they were fed some hay on the ground and most likely picked up anthrax spores from soil contaminating the feed. Three cattle died before leaving the Dirranbandi property.
"Based on positive soil tests at the site of the carcase, it is reasonable to conclude that these cattle had anthrax. Other cattle exposed to anthrax subsequently died after movement back to their home property at Wandoan in December 2001.
"There is a time period between when cattle or sheep ingest anthrax spores and when they die from the disease - usually around four to 10 days. This explains how anthrax got from Dirranbandi to Wandoan."
Dr Taylor said during this "incubation" phase anthrax did not present a risk to other animals or humans. It was after an animal died that it was possible for the disease to spread to other animals.
He said the considerable media and public interest in anthrax was fanned by concerns about human health and recent bioterrorist activities. However, anthrax was certainly not new in Australia. It had a long history in the country, being first recognised in 1847 near Sydney.
to be continued

*In a global sense OJD is only a recent problem in Australia. In every country with significant sheep or goat flocks OJD is present.

Indeed a recent international conference on the disease concluded that no country had provided evidence of being OJD free.

Overseas policy tends these days to concentrate on managing the disease, largely through vaccines, rather than getting rid of it.

“Several countries have tried to eradicate Ovine Johne's Disease and none have succeeded and some have tried extraordinarily high level eradication techniques such as Iceland actually removed every sheep from the country -- destocked the country, then restocked it and they've still got Ovine Johne’s Disease,” Andrew Vizard said.*

http://www.abc.net.au/landline/stories/s212407.htm

End of story Dickie. Your IQ must be 71 :)

Hi all
PALE, I absolutely agree with you on two counts - you breed them, you care for them. And a quick painless death here has got to be better than putting the unfortunate animals on the ships.

The fact that they are orphaned does not negate their right to proper care and attention to welfare (BTW, why are they orphaned?). Nor does their relative value. You don't have to be a farmer to have those expectations, although they are standards that apparently escape farmers entirely.

Would it not have made sense to call the veterinarian to help the sheep before it died rather than pay for a post-mortem? Not the best logic there.

Rojo, intelligence is not the primary issue, the capacity to suffer, and sentience are the issues.

Yabby, if you carry out your own intravenous procedures, why can you not carry euthanasia medication? Simply because it's cheaper to knock them on the head?

Cheers
Nicky

*BTW, why are they orphaned?*

Because mommy is either very stupid or does not care. Not all mommies
are the same. That is nature for you.

*Would it not have made sense to call the veterinarian to help the sheep before it died rather than pay for a post-mortem? Not the best logic there.*

Extremely good logic, if you are not ignorant about the facts and
shouting from the cheap seats. Why an animal is crook matters, so
sometimes we have to chop em open to find out, as in this case.
That way we learn something, for the benefit of the rest. By the
way, the vets cut their throats, when they do an autopsy.

*why can you not carry euthanasia medication?*

Because it is illegal, they think that farmers or others might
top themselves with it. I then ask why its ok for vets to top
themselves with it, which they can't answer :)

If you want animal welfare, don't deny farmers the products that they
need, which is the case right now.

Ah my dear retarded Yabby. We're not interested in your red herrings which you clumsily hurl at us when your back's to the wall.

It is more than likely that many nations, battling the frightening global epidemics, now raging in farmed animals, have been the recipients of many contagious pathogens from Australia, carried in by live exports. Your very own live export industry has advised us they send off diseased animals to other countries.

However, importing countries have objected to Australian export standards in the past. Many have refused to accept our cattle which have been injected with hormone growth promotants.

Countries have refused to accept chicks due to Newcastle Disease.

South Africa rejected Australia's TB "Free" status. Smart country SA eh? Chile refused to accept Australian animals injected with live vaccines. ......the list is endless.

In the meantime, whilst many recipient countries demand a reasonable degree of quality assurance from Australia, (with fingers crossed no doubt) we must ask: "What the devil are Australians consuming?"

Diseased animals in Australia are sent to abattoirs for slaughter. The survivors (many still diseased) are pumped full of drugs and vaccines - live and otherwise. Then we eat them.

BTW, Yabby. I see the link you provided revealed another farmer who thinks he's above the law. He, no doubt was a large contributor to the spread of Johne's Disease:

"Graham Privett, has been prosecuted, convicted and last month sentenced, ensnared in a controversial public policy that's deeply divided farming and scientific communities.

"Mr. Privett's crime was not handing over to the Department of Agriculture all the names of those who'd bought his rams - a breach of the 1923 Stock Diseases Act."

The deception continues below when Mike Norton, WA Farmers Federation President (Meat Section) appeared sufficiently retarded to believe the public would swallow his spin about WA's JD "free" status:

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/wa/content/2006/s1686202.htm

So what's happened to your repetitious brag about Australia's "clean and green" image Yabby? Time for you to liaise with your cruel connections eh?

Now back to that IQ assessment....... !

Breaking News:

28 April 2008

Worldwide Retail Giant Takes a Stand Against Lamb Mutilations

"Miami -- After discussions with PETA about the mutilation of lambs by Australian farmers, Miami-based global retail giant Perry Ellis International has decided to boycott all wool from farmers who use either the standard mulesing mutilation or the new--and also painful--"clip mulesing" procedure.

"Mulesing is a crude procedure in which farmers cut huge chunks of skin and flesh from lambs' backsides with shears or use tightly clamped clips to end blood circulation and kill the skin in a crude attempt to reduce maggot infestation.

"Farmers use this cruel procedure even though effective and humane prevention methods--such as breeding bare-breech sheep--already exist.

"The industry is now promoting another cruel mulesing method in which clips are attached to the folded skin and flesh of lambs, which causes the skin and flesh to rot and fall off.

"But Perry Ellis International--which distributes its products to more than 15,000 stores worldwide and has annual sales approaching $1 billion--isn't buying the new mulesing technique.

The IQ assessment is dropping Dickie dear, yours seems to be heading
below 70 now :)

*The survivors (many still diseased) are pumped full of drugs and vaccines - live and otherwise. Then we eat them.*

I love the logic. We vaccinate people all the time for all sorts
of things, but if we vaccinate animals, that must be poison!

Hehe, you girls will invent any old excuse to try and promote
your cause, even fiction, as we have noted.

What fascinates me is where the real psychological problem lies.
Why is it that the animal liberation lobby is made up of mainly
females? What we certainly have on OLO, is a bunch of pedantic,
doting females, who seem to want to rather cuddle all animals,
rather then accept that we eat them. So why?

I have my own theories and it gets back to endocrinology. Instinct
is clearly influenced by genetics and oxytocin is not known as
the cuddle hormone for no good reason. Could it just be that you
girls have very high levels of oxytocin, which is influencing
your instincts? Sheesh, what an interesting scientific experiment
this would make!

Dickie, I agree, clips are not the answer, as I have said all
along. Mandating trisolfen would make far more sense, if it is
made easily available.

But I have predicted for years, that the wool industry is doomed
to become a niche industry eventually, certainly in Australia.
The Chinese own most of the processing gear now, so they can dictate
the price. They never pay more then they absolutaly need to for
raw materials. At the same time in Australia, young ones don't
want to do hard work like shearing anymore, so there are more
profitable things that we can do with the land.

We can always breed more wool free meat sheep, plus grow a few
more crops. Forget the American market, they are becoming poorer,
whilst the Arabs are getting richer. Arabs might well pay a premium
for high quality meat sheep, so as wool declines, we could buy some
more modern sheep ships!
.

My dear Yabby. Should we bother with political correctness here? Currently, Foxy has raised her concern over posters who do not adhere to PC where they appear to have a preference for slinging insults at each other.

But you and I love a good dust-up don't we? And we both would realise that PC, like diplomacy, has no friends, only interests. PC specifically was invented to protect the sainted "victims" with a minimum amount of offence.

Neither you or I are "victims."

Nevertheless we remain miles apart and I am truly thankful that I do not possess the reptilian chill you display when assessing how many dollars you can save by the DIY surgical horrors you perform on your livestock.

There are times Yabby when your exhortations are so obtuse:

"I love the logic. We vaccinate people all the time for all sorts
of things, but if we vaccinate animals, that must be poison!"

Yabby, humans these days don't eat humans.

Cannibalism, you see, is no longer fashionable for humans though livestock owners, similar to yourself Yabby, are responsible for turning other species into cannibals, resulting in Mad Cow Disease, vCJD and other plagues you can't screen for because you don't yet know about them.

Get it Yab? The food chain? We humans are at the top of the chain. We eat your contaminated animals where these poor toxic critters are unfit for human consumption but do you care?

"Not at all," says our Yab. "Profits my dear Dickie, profits. Who cares about the consequences? Silly emotional half-wits, pumped up on oxytocin!"

But Yabby, you too are overdosed on "oxytocin." This is so obvious because you wont take your hand off it - you even type with one hand.

Every day now, the media are reporting on the institutionalised animal cruelty you so vigorously defend.

You see Yabby we defend only goodness - you defend evil.

Take heed Yabby and head for the hills for goodness will prevail over evil and the malice, perpetrated on defenceless animals by greedy, unevolved men and devils is soon to be outlawed.

Hi all
Poor Yabby, you are SUCH a neanderthal. Let us all know when you are fully evolved from all fours, won't you? Dickie has well and truly annihilated you this time.

Furthermore, you would never survive a science or psychology degree. The human psyche is not solely, or even primarily, determined by endocrinolgy at all, essentially we are products of many things, incluhding our environments and genetics (I wonder if you were beaten as a child? That might explain a lot).

Give us a break from the half-baked, minimally informed scientific theory, and try to present a coherent, moral perspective of why it is you do what you do.

Personally, I can't wait for the day that a plague strikes in all these countries, and it gets attributed to Australian animals. It's already starting to happen. Clean green Australia? You people are such a sad joke peddling such rubbish.

I'd quit while I was behind now, if I were you.

Cheers
Nicky

Dickie dear, no I don’t worry about that PC crap. I’d rather say what I think, let
others join hands and sing Kumbaya to deal with life.

Yup I am aware that cannibalism is out of fashion. But so explain to me why it is
fine to stick a vaccine into your own flesh directly, but causes animals to become
sick, if you do the same thing to them.

How many people can you show, that have died from eating Australian vaccinated
livestock, despite the fact that most of our 20 million people eat them every
single day, let alone overseas customers? Any evidence that you can provide?

*for humans though livestock owners, similar to
yourself Yabby, are responsible for turning other species into cannibals,*

Well they are humans like yourself Dickie, generally in Europe, which you
look up to for respect and acceptance. I remind you that I do natural farming,
not factory farming, which are quite different. My animals graze pasture, grain
in droughts etc, so that they don’t starve as in nature.

*But Yabby, you too are overdosed on "oxytocin." This is so obvious because you wont take your hand
off it - you even type with one hand.*

Ah Dickie, you know as much about endocrinology as Nicky, which is clearly bugger
all lol. I remind you that your clitoris is just basically a small penis, with similar nerve endings. Take your hand off it Dickie!

*You see Yabby we defend only goodness*

No Dickie, you defend instinctive mothering, you totally lack common sense and
knowledge, when it comes to livestock. A bit like overdoting mommies, who drive
any normal kid nuts.

Nicky, your ad hominems prove nothing. All that we can establish is that you would
soon fail at farming, so university is the easy option for you. I actually have a lot
of friends in academia, we have some interesting discussions :) They commonly know a great deal about one tiny subject, but are some of the most impractical people that I have met, when it comes to common sense and dealing with-the-larger
world.

contiuned

"The public health implications of anthrax are that it can be a serious disease in humans and potentially fatal if exposure to the organism is not treated"


Cattle anthrax case in Qld

The first case of anthrax in cattle for three and a half years has been recorded, with 10 animals dying from the disease in southern Queensland. It has been reiterated that anthrax spores can lie dormant in the soil for up to 50 years and that there are no suspicious circumstances surrounding the case.

South-east Queensland
Australia was officially declared free of TB in December 1997.
However, on 11/12/00, TB was found in a National Granuloma Submission Program (NGSP) sample from a Santa Gertrudis heifer slaughtered at Coominya Abattoir in Queensland. Culture confirmed the diagnosis in early February.

The heifer was purchased from a property at Wandoan (Qld), but originated from a property at Bollon (Qld). This property was sold in September 2000 and a whole-herd dispersal occurred prior to sale, mainly in July and August 2000. Most were sold at saleyards at Roma and Goondiwindi, with 1,349 cattle being sold to 56 destinations.

Tuberculosis has been detected in seven additional trace-forward properties, four of which are in New South Wales.

The finding of a total of 12 positive animals on these properties has triggered further destocking, tracing and testing activity.

At least one generalised case has been found suggesting this animal may have been a potent source of spread of the disease.

Culture positive results have been obtained from a number of these animals. In total, over 1,000 cattle have been destocked from trace-forward properties.

The source of infection for this TB outbreak is still being investigated. It may have been present in cattle on the property or introduced in purchased stock from Queensland or the Northern Territory.


This will require a rigorous program to ensure that any residual infection is eradicated

Contiuned
The rest of the animals were shipped off.

Some people are over senstive about talking about these things. The last time we sent this off we had a visit from the special branch dogs and all.
Think about it why . Why quite emails to local Drs?but no public announcement. . Aljazeera showed more interest.

11/1/2002 - Anthrax outbreak on two cattle properties in Queensland.
Two cattle properties in southern Queensland have been quarantined as a result of an outbreak of anthrax.


A case of human anthrax in Victoria
A human case of anthrax was identified through surveillance of knackery workers who had been exposed to
infected cattle. The outbreak in cattle has affected 38 herds in the Stanhope/Tatura area of central northern
Victoria. The human case, was a 39 year old male. Public health measures are in place to prevent further human
cases. Comm Dis Intell 1997;21:47-48.


Anthrax, caused by Bacillus anthracis, is primarily a disease of ruminants which infects humans. Cases in animals,
particularly cattle, occur in Victoria across a wide area in the south of the State, and along the Goulburn and Murray rivers.
Anthrax was detected on two adjoining dairy farms in the Stanhope/Tatura area in central northern Victoria.
The number of affected properties remained low until 4 weeks later when the number of affected properties and
cattle began to escalate rapidly. 38 herds had been affected, including both milking and non-milking dairy herds.
Meat from these carcasses had already been sold. Immediate control measures taken by the Department of Human


Services followed the outbreak. • local doctors were advised of the outbreak, provided with a fact sheet, and advised what steps to take, and specimens were sent to the Victorian Infectious Diseases Reference Laboratory (VIDRL).
CDI Vol 21, No 4
1. Infectious Diseases Unit, Department of Human Services, Level One (South), 115 Victoria Pde, Fitzroy Victoria 3065.
2. Department of Human Services, Loddon Mallee Region, Victoria.

Dickie Nicky . A polite letter to Muslim Leaders World will do more good than anything to point out the risks of buying live.

Hi dickie,

Yep, everything is a govt conspiracy, all aimed at irritating animal libbers. Yet you are quite happy to provide a SA govt link when it suits.hmmmm.

so where is the evidence for linking crohns and johnes diseases? That Johnes disease exists in Australia is not in question, but thanks for sharing.

no further evidence of "canadian bse woman"?

Yes, I plainly said AQIS made a mistake, they're only human. The New Caledonia animals were treated, unfortunately by the wrong method.

Sorry to disappoint, I gain nothing from live-exports. I just dislike false information passed of as fact, when used to deliberately disadvantage others. I post my links to be as factual as possible, I do not fear the truth.
You're not implying that you actually cherry pick or spin what you tell us? surely not.

Hi all
Rojo, I agree with you insofar as disease information that is old may not be especially useful here, but I do remember reading myself somewhere recently (and sorry, I can't provide a link because I can't remember where I read it) that there IS a link between OJD and Crohns. I'd also have to point out that of the several AQIS mortality reports that have been released, as well as the cattle incident in New Caldedona, indicate that AQIS is very much "asleep on the job". I understand that in Fremantle that they rarely attend the loadings of ships, and of course nor does RSPCA WA.

A shipment of sheep left Tasmania (the last one from there, I believe) where ill and injured sheep were delivered and accepted into the feedlot, then (after over a thousand were destroyed) ill and injured sheep were loaded onto the sheep (hence the death toll and resulting mortality report). The mortality reports (by AQIS) also all seem to state that the animals are not given the "mandated" period in feedlots (resulting in the inanition/salmonellosis syndrome, I'd suggest). Reports from Tasmania, for example (not from "animal libbers" either, in fact quite the opposite) indicated that a large percentage of the sheep were only there for a matter of hours. These are the sorts of reasons why RSPCA Australia's Bidda Jones states that the industry is incapable of monitoring itself or providing reasonable standards of animal welfare.

So much for "World's best practice". The fact of the matter is that no-one else has any standards at all, and Australia's standards are worthless.

Cheers
Nicky

* I understand that in Fremantle that they rarely attend the loadings of ships, and of course nor does RSPCA WA.*

Err hang on Nicky, if that were the case, that would be evident by
the AQIS charge sheets. Do you have evidence, or is this just another
claim to try and denigrate the industry as per normal ?

*These are the sorts of reasons why RSPCA Australia's Bidda Jones states that the industry is incapable of monitoring itself or providing reasonable standards of animal welfare.*

That would be like me saying, because one dead apple works for the
RSPCA, they must all be dead apples. Not so. As in any industry,
there are good and bad. The idea is to sort out the good from
the bad and deal with those. It could well be that a contractor
in Tassie is not doing his job. When converting sheep to other feed,
you need to focus on the rumen bacteria, or you land up with
acidosis. So you need to buffer feedstuffs to deal with that,
or you will get problems.

* and Australia's standards are worthless.*

They are not worthless at all, as the mortality rate changes in
the last 10 years show. There have been huge improvements.
But then Nicky, as we know, you are unable to be objective and
even give an inch on anything, no matter how much has changed.
That is why I call you a fanatic. You really do deserve the title.

Dear Yabby, the standards are worthless in the sense that not one meaningful penalty has been imposed against one exporter who has manifestly breached the standards (see AQIS reports). Being instructed to carry more medicine and allow more space does not constitute a meaningful penalty. Not a fine, not a suspension to be found. They measure ONLY the animals still able to stand at the end of the voyage, nothing more.

The standards are even more worthless once the animals are on the ships and even more so when they arrive in countries with either no animal protection laws or "agreements" which provide only for them to be offloaded (in order to avert another potential Cormo Express fiasco). Those are totally unenforceable. We are talking about people in these countries who neither abide by OIE standards to which they are signatory, or to their OWN religious tenets.

- not killing animals in the presence of other animals
- the animals are not to be bound
- the slaughterman makes a dedication of the animal to ‘Allah’ and face Mecca
- the animal should be killed with a single cut to the throat with a long sharp blade, and
- the animal must not suffer prior to slaughter.

Can you see one that they observe?

The standards also only go as far as the ship. Once the animals are on the ships (in fact, once they are delivered to feedlots) their fate is sealed. The evidence I have of AQIS not attending loadings in Fremantle is witness evidence of people who ARE there. Fudging of charge sheets by a government department? God forbid. In one AQIS report it is stated that the AQIS appointed third party vet had his own cattle in a consignment and approved the ship to sail into a cyclone. You guessed it, major mortality incident.

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky

Your information on AQIS is a timely reminder that Australian taxpayers' funds are being sqandered on a department which is notorious for its blunders.

Yet we have the simian-like knuckle scraping rock apes here, continually defending a department which is actively engaged in the unconscionable carnage of defenceless animals and a bureaucracy which approves the violation of the basic laws of any humane society.

Let's consider Rojo's defence of this department where he states: "Yes, I plainly said AQIS made a mistake, they're only human. The New Caledonia animals were treated, unfortunately by the wrong method."

One mistake is forgiveable - perhaps even a couple. "Unfortunately" Rojo, constant mistakes - unforgiveable! You are aware of these blunders therefore your antipathy towards people who object to the abominable culture which pervades this industry, drastically reduces your credibility.

"Australia's first line of defence," AQIS claim. Well a few recent blunders by our "first line of defence" comes to mind.

AQIS are guilty of:

1 Allowing the loading of animals diseased and unfit for travel to the Middle East and other countries
2 Thereby exposing healthier animals to the contagions these animals carry and placing other nations at additional risk of zoonotic outbreaks
3 Placing this nation's biosecurity and economy at grave risk over the mis-management of equine flu outbreak. The AQIS is now likely to be hit with a multi-million dollar damages claim over the equine influenza outbreak.
4 Exporting cattle tick to New Caledonia and placing New Caledonia's cattle herd at risk. Taxpayers hit with large bill and potentially more to come.
5. Failing to perform inspections in WA for Johne's Disease

etc etc.

Quoting Rojo's accusation: "I just dislike false information passed of (sic) as fact, when used to deliberately disadvantage others."

Please supply the name of those posters you claim are lying and deliberately disadvantaging others - together with supporting evidence, ASAP please Rojo.

Dear Nicky, yes we know that you should have been a traffic cop, so that you can
follow your passion of imposing fines on people. As I have explained to you before,
that is not how AQIS operates, for reasons that I have explained. 1000 dead sheep
cost a company 100’000$, that’s a pretty large fine in itself.

The standards are quite good, I’ve read them. Where problems will always arise,
is that when humans do things, there will be stuff ups due to human stupidity.

I know its beneath you to watch commercial tv, but one day take a look at Gordon
Ramsay’s Kitchen Disasters. It might occur to you how some people can’t even
run a simple restaurant, let alone a complex operation like exporting live sheep.

Don’t talk to me about what happens in the ME. I made you an offer to help
change things when it comes to the slaughter of 12 million non Australian animals
there, you are not the slightest bit interested.

Meantime it sounds like in the saleyards under your very nose, they are unable to
organise themselves to see that animals are treated humanely, so who are you
to preach to the ME?

If people were fudging AQIS charge cheats, they would be sacked. The press
would only need to get a whiff of corruption in Govt, heads would have to role,
or the Govt would not survive.

*You have so much knowledge in your head. More than I.
I must addmitt I am a bit usleless at that. I always get the names and dated mixed and have to loook things up.*

Hehe Getrude you said it! I am going to have to agree with you :)

Oxytocin Nicky, is part of your genetic make up and affects your behaviour. Look it up and educate
yourself. Otherwise of course, ignorance is bliss!

Yabby

He,he yourself. I am not in a good mood tonight, I must warn you.

No Yabby, I dont have each dreadful happening and each ships name in my head.

I said to Nicky, she seems to remember those details far better than myself

Mind you for all I know she may refer to a web site.

However I do know that AA Leader Glenys has those details in her mind. Or so I was told.

Whats your problem with that.? Unlike yourself Yabby I have always acknowledged that this requires many people with many skills.

We cant all be like you and know everything.

You know like others we have long held the view that the answer is with Muslim Leaders and Farmers.

For the record we have invited Animals Australia and RSPCA National to sit at the table with Muslim Leaders of Australia working under our unique MOU for Animal Welfare for years!

Our latest invitation was extended as Nicky knows again just four weeks ago.

A response from RSPCA National Bidda Jones was finally received by our office PM today.

In short we were informed RSPCA National Animals Australia Handle with Care are to approach Muslim Leaders themselves.

Well Golly and all the time we have been black listed and critized for our work?

It just goes to show the problem with Animal Welfare stems from human nature driven by jealousy and envy and power.

RSPCA National need to Handle this with Care Indeed:)

dickie, how about we start with this one:

"This month, a Canadian woman was diagnosed with BSE"

An obvious LIE.
Since BSE hasn't been a topic here one would have to wonder why you bring it up unless to further some hapless crusade. I expect it is not to advantage the meat producers of this world.

You are most welcome to tell AQIS how they should go about their business. I know what it's like to make mistakes, and some risk is associated with all imports. Had they totally overlooked the ticks I would be equally critical.
Equine flu should be a reminder of the reason we have AQIS in the first place,and is no doubt something AQIS will learn from. There is no such thing as risk-free. Not even by closing off borders and certainly not without a "first line of defence"- you do get "first line" don't you?
One wonders what the Japenese QIS was doing (if such an equivalent even exists).
"One mistake is forgiveable"
I would say to repeat a mistake is unforgivable.

Hi Nicky,

The thing about old material is knowledge changes over time. That doesn't make the new results any more correct, but it certainly doesn't verify the old.
I would also say that choosing to present the old when much newer information exists is deliberately misleading.

cheers

Yabby rojo

Or should I refer to you as Loral and Hardey
Why don’t you crawl out from under that rock where you hide with your false names and utter crap and say who you are and what you do like we do?
Stand up like men - which you are not.
Come on lets hear all about your personal dealings with AQIS.?
Why should Dicky or Nicky not be concerned about animal welfare simply because they are not farmers. Grow up.

Tell us the last time you attended a meeting with these people. We are dying to know.

Because I know one thing for sure and that is you have never had personal dealings with AQIS and you have zero idea of how they operate unlike some.

They CONTROL the export licenses you twit. Control being the key factor here. Now they do that for the Government.

Then they THE Government give our tax dollars to no less than three other organizations to put out the preverbal BS you read in MLA reports and others.

Well sunshine we have sat at a table with a head AQIS person who at that time was Peter McGauran’s advisor.

Now out of that mouth came a statement that rocked the foundation of the earth.

She clearly didn’t even realize she was talking with lawyers quite separately to people with a working relationship with Muslim Leaders and rspca qld.

Comments made regarding RSPCA National and Dr Hugh Wirth and UK President of RSPCA were 'fascinating'.

We contacted AA at that time. etc etc

I am going to tell the girls about export licences and accreditation handled or ah rather CONTROLLOED by AQIS but Rojoyabby come on YOU FIRST.

My Name is Wendy Lewthwaite and I founded pale. I am happy to talk of our experience with AQIS.
Come on Now Rojoyabby Who are you and what dealings have you had with AQIS.?

DO TELL?

Getrude dear, I had dealings with AQIS on virtually a weekly basis
for 14 years. But that is even beside the point.

The fact is, coming onto online forums and throwing little tantrums
is not going to get you anywhere. A poster can be the Queen of
Sheba or Lizzie 2, it does not matter. What matters is points of
reason and logical fallacies.

Here is a guide for you, worth reading, we'll see if you have the
ability to understand them.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/articles/logical-fallacies.html

Ad hominens won't do it for you, just make you feel better for
a moment.

Yabby
dearest, I intend to make my comments a whole lot more interesting as we go along. Thanks for the guide. Lets start by using it now. Oh looki here, what have we got. Umm, lets see now. Tell you what I will just hook into a couple that reminds me of you sweetheart.

hominem

"You are an idiot, therefore you are wrong."

“Everyone agrees with me, therefore I am right.”

By Golly Yabbs this is rather good. I Do like the refernce to SH perhaps we could compare it with AWB:)

Now I find the comment about Animal Liberation interesting.

So Now that you have given to us a little more of yourself why don’t you just come on out and say who you are.?

If your lot are so proud of live exports how come I had to sift through company after- or should I say before company after company that they hide behind.

MLA tells us their Ambassadors will not be able to be contacted by public.
Now that only leaves you Yabbs and of course we cant ask anybody to take your argument seriously if you hide behind the Vaile.

Anyway why not stick to something Fishy? It suites you.

I told you Gertrude is not in a playful mood these days.

I have long requested a be honest forum thread where people want to play on an even field.
To say whom you are especially while commenting on such important issues is only good manners.
Now I know that’s not something you live animal exporters hold too seriously.
What’s happened to you live Animal exporter Ambassadors?

Headed for the hills like the rest. Just like you live Animal Exporters Emanuel’s complaining we named them.

I mean really. Oh and don’t think for one second they are going to get away with the political interfearance in courts .

Now you still haven’t told me whom you personally dealt with at AQIS.?

I am not talking about fishy business- I am speaking of live exports.

Mind you sweetheart there’s not really much difference is there.

Gertrude, I don't think you understood a word of that, but never
mind. So I shall explain it to you this way: I frankly could
not care less who Nicky, Dicky, or Gertude are, to me they are
just names on OLO. Either they make points of reason or they
don't. That is what good debate is all about.

Most farmers would not even bother to talk to people from the
animal libber movement, I've taken alot of time to explain things
from their perspective. I play by my rules, not your rules.

If you don't like it, fine, I'll go back to ignoring your posts
as they are simply not worth the bother. Feel free to play with
yourself :)

Yabby

Please remember in fact I do know who you are as you do me.

I don’t like people who are not prepared to support their claims or comments by posting their real names.

You get on here and make outrageous claims about what you know as to how AQIS operate MLA DFF and others.

You are just another lot of MLAs rubbish. Please don’t tell us MLA handles all people fairly.

The fact is that is a lie. I speak from personal experience and I am prepared to put my name to my comments.

I can say I have spoken in person to several MLA heads and others and that what you print here is absolutely nonsense.

Feel free to ignore my posts because you always do if someone comes back with facts and names.

When I posted the facts that came from the mouth of the Malaysian Prime Minister you simply ignored all of those posts because it showed you were incorrect.

No you don’t have to post in your real name. However it does tell us something that you are not prepared to.

Bit like your old MLA backed six Ambassadors that MLA refuse to supply a contact email address for.

Still we managed to get one through Nicky I *think.

Not much good IMOP as ambassadors can’t even have the manners to reply

All out under rocks some place waiting to crawl out for their next photo shoot.

Why if you people are so proud are you always hiding?"

Hi all
PALE, the charming Annabelle has not bothered to respond to a communication from you? Hardly surprising, she is trying to defend the indefensible. Another point is that these "Ambassadors" are not really "youth" - one is into his thirties, and Ms Coppin is well into her 20s.

She accompanied one shipment, so far as I know, on the Deneb Prima for five days, to Indonesia, and did a runner straight back home to her property without seeing the fate of her "much loved" cattle after they were unloaded. But that enables her to make claims that she is a (self-professed) authority on what a WONDERFUL industry this is. And We KNOW Yabby just responds with unfounded insults when he is backed into a corner. Some things never change.

As for AQIS, they have proven themselves to be pretty useless. Exporters who fail to comply with the mandated standards get not even the proverbial "rap over the knuckles", They may even get financial incentives to help them behave themselves in the future, who knows?

Cheers
Nicky

*We KNOW Yabby just responds with unfounded insults when he is backed into a corner. Some things never change.*

Hehe Nicky, keep kidding yourself. Frankly I had not even noticed
a corner yet :) But you keep imagining whatever you like, if it
keeps you occupied

paleif,
my name is known to the convenors of this site, and I stand by my comments. My name isn't necessary because everything can be dealt with right here on OLO, either my comments are relevant/valid or they are not.
I'm sorry you feel I'm somehow affiliated with any organisation, beit AQIS or LE companies . I do however buy farm supplies from Landmark- an AWB company. I guess AQIS inspect imported equipment and materials for plant breeding, so in effect they have "worked" for me too.

I agree with Yabby, it doesn't matter to me who anyone here really is, either they can back up their claims/opinions or they can't. Knowing that you are wendy someone or other doesn't validate your comments, nor make them any more coherent.

You could refer to us as Loral and Hardy, and my initial impression would be that it reflects you're abilities succinctly.

Hello Nicky

I was sitting in front of my computer this morning when I saw your post go up but I couldn’t reply to you because I didn’t have any posts left. Don’t you find that annoying...

Nicky I can assure you what I have said on these threads about everything is the absolute truth and in response to the way in which our organization was treated right from the start.



Anyway there’s no need for you to get yourself in the middle surely. Just keep an open mind.( please}

We are all fighting for a bit of common decency for animals so in the end we stand united.

Regarding Lyn I only spoke with her once a long time ago.

I read one of her reports and was pretty impressed with what she was saying to the media re live exports.

I have left a message asking her to contact me.( if she gets it)



Ok I will tell you about the stunt. For “5 years” pale has invited RSPCA National and also your friends to with Muslim leaders regarding animal welfare.

Clearly it’s the way to go. The last invitation was four weeks ago if you recall.

Finally we received that reply.

No they won’t accept our invitation to be informed of where we are at with our dealings or to sit under our mou working towards animal welfare.
Instead she said Handle with care people had decided to contact apart from us and seek their own meeting.

Nicky we are at a very delicate stage of negotiations and clearly this could throw out our whole program and many years of work.

Our lawyers have gone berserk and it will be on for now for young and old.
Of course they can do as they wish.
However why stomp in on our work and who really are the RSPCA National.?
To whom are they answerable.?
My back is twitching. What a way to thank us for our loyal support and wonderful projects?
Whats really going on?

Again you blunder, Rojo. The matter of BSE and diseases in livestock is very relevant to this thread and I raised this topic during April 28. In addition, are you aware that nearly 75% of newly emerging human diseases are of animal origin?

This is not surprising when one learns that the livestock industry has been guilty of forcing herbivores to eat meat protein supplement -and not just infected sheep carcasses but processed chicken litter – a mixture of faeces, feathers and dead birds.

Human remains are also suspected of entering the feedstock responsible for BSE.

Did you realise Rojo that cattle and other ruminants are uniquely suited to eat grass yet apart from the drugs, chemicals and cannibalistic feed, you also insist on feeding them corn and soybeans?

Nor was BSE infected offal merely fed to cattle but also to pigs, chickens, sheep, pets and zoo animals. The fact that Australia escaped this dreadful tragedy is a matter of luck – certainly not ethics. But it's not over yet by a long shot.

Hopefully, this will bring to people’s attention, some of the methods in which the meat industry operates. You Rojo, and that industry have scant regard for consumers when the bulk of the current agriculture consists of large-scale agribusiness that relies heavily on the use of chemical biocides, antibiotics and fertilizers, as well as economic subsidies.

Massive biocide and antibiotic use is a failed policy perpetuated by agribusiness and the drug and chemical industry. These businesses value profits over human and ecological health. The more biocides and antibiotics are used, the more target organisms develop resistance to them.

Humans in turn are now dying from antibiotic resistant bacteria.

In the past livestock were fed diethylstilbestrol where human males developed breasts and females breast, vaginal and uterine cancers. Now the daughters of those victims are also at risk.

We consume chickens suffering diabetes and cancers but continue on pumping them with hormone growth promoters.

In Australia, CSIRO are further tampering with nature and experimenting with GM modified sheep and vaccines.

Contd.....

Rojo,

Yes I hear what you are saying and of course you have a point.

There is no need to be nasty Rojo and please know we are not idiots.

I also suppose its unfair the lump you in the same camp as MLA etc.
Have you ever considered how unfairly this has all been stacked up against the farmers?

My reason for asking people to identify them was to show us they were able to back up some of their comments.

You both go on about how wrong the girls are who post.

Then of course you take cheap shots at us but let me just ask you.

Are you really in a position to say we are talking rubbish.

Have you really ever tried to open abattoirs and see how the cards are stacked against the red meat industry - on purpose?
Don’t you think its lousy that the Government made changes on purpose to support live exports- then have the hide to blame it on the farmers?

Back then Farmers were just farmers. They went savvy enough to ask the right questions.

Tell me Room do you also support the member farmers of the ABA.
Don’t you think this industry and those farmers should receive the same help and support as the middle man involved in live exports?

Its all very well for you to claim MLA are not doing anything wrong.
I say from personal experience they are. I speak with direct knowledge.
If you wish to debate me then you must be in a position to claim the same.
That is why I say. Who are you?

Put your name behind your posts like mine.

It all comes back to credibility and sorry but if you won’t prove to me you have had hands on experience then I won’t really take your comments too seriously.

One million cases of salmonella in the US annually are now attributed to meat and poultry consumption.

And like yesterday's "experts" you think you know it all eh Rojo?

Nothing, it appears is sacred when it comes to exploiting defenceless animals. Companion animals from clinics, pounds, and shelters are being rendered and used as sources of protein in pet food. Dead-stock removal operations play a major role in the pet food industry.

Dead animals, road kill that cannot be buried at roadside, and in some cases, zoo animals, are picked up by these dead stock operations and sold to the pet food industry and subsequently the consumers who unwittingly feed it to their pets and then wonder why diabetes and cancer is now endemic in canines.

"This month, a Canadian woman was diagnosed with BSE"

Ah and the likes of you dare to call me a liar, Rojo?

Any fool, conversant with this disease would realize that I had made a typo – which should have read: “TSE.” Furthermore, I was endeavouring to be fair when I advised of only one victim in Canada where already this year, a total of 19 cases of suspected CJD have been reported through the Canadian surveillance system.

http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/hcai-iamss/cjd-mcj/cjdss-ssmcj/stats-eng.php

And last month 2 more victims in Spain died from vCJD.

Some may think I am dredging up the past but in fact I believe I am dredging up the future since we are dealing with a disease predicted to continue emerging in animals and humans for decades and a brutal industry which continues conducting "business as usual." The Australian industry thumbs its dirty nose at the expert advice from WHO and the EU who warn that animals should be slaughtered as closely as possible to their places of origin, to protect our desecrated environment, the global spread of pathogens and an increase in zoonotic disease.

"either they can back up their claims/opinions or they can't."

Touche Rojo! Learn from that.

And when modern dehumanised man kills for food, the food will surely return the compliment!

Ah Dickie, that is why we do mostly freerange in Australia, consumers
are free to buy it!

Actually in one thing you are correct, in both the US and Europe,
they add all sorts of industrial waste to their stockfeed, but then
they are nations which you look up to. Not me lol.

It might be happening in Australia, I have never seen it. These
days, all stockfeed that I have seen, contains a list of ingredients.
Anything I feed my livestock, I need to keep records. Any worm
treatments, when, what, how much, WHP, etc. etc.

Yup, in Australia we feed ruminants grain, I don't have a problem
with that. They eat grass seedheads in the pasture and that is
all that things like oats are. If they are wild oats, or domesticated
oats, to me is not an issue.

The farmers whom I know, who finish livestock for market, use a
mix of grains and hay, some vitamin and mineral supplements, thats
it. They produce the hay and grain themselves, buy in the
supplements. Some use feedmill products, but even with those,
what is fed to animals is on the label. No industrial waste in there,
as in Europe or the US.

Perhaps you should specify which so called evils you attribute to
which country, for AFAIK, there is a huge difference.

dickie,

Why a case of single "TSE" case in canada is news worthy, given an expected incidence of 1 per million population would mean 30 diagnoses per year in Canada, makes it even more unlikely that you meant anything other than BSE. After all you've said it yourself, "relevant animal diseases". I would call that lying by implication, if indeed you didn't mean to directly.

"And last month 2 more victims in Spain died from vCJD". Last month? How's your accuracy- one did, one 3 months prior.
Total ever in Spain - 3. Dropping like flies.
I don't discount further vCJD cases it could well have a long incubation period, it's the chance of new infection thats changed with legislation on diet, animal age and specifyind cuts of meat that are able to be used.

Since I am a consumer of meat, and most farmers are (assuming they fall into line with the 95% or so of the population who aren't vegetarian)I'd suggest we do have regard for the consumer. We are consumers ourselves.
What I assess is risk, which appears slight in the chances of contracting vCJD. Even in the UK sporadic CJD out numbers vCJD 6 to 1, and it's a one in a million chance. The other diseases that come to mind are a product of undercooking and hygiene, something to which vegetarians are not immune. Salmonella included- wash those vegies.

cont'd

Bird Flue= warning

Shipping Fever and bird flu- A product of our own making through Animal Cruelty.
http://birdflubook.com/a.php?id=46
Stems from Animal Cruelty. As does intesive piggerys and long haulage of Animals

People need to World Wide Animal Welfare Organisations.





Stop this cruelty that is going to be the death of us ALL!

Shipping Fever and bird flu\ A product of our own making through Animal Cruelty.
http://birdflubook.com/a.php?id=46

The bushmeat trade is not the viruses’ only ticket around the world. More than 50 million live farm animals—cattle, sheep, and pigs—are traded across state lines in the United States alone every year, along with untold numbers of live birds on their way to slaughter.864 A pound of meat can travel a thousand miles “on the hoof” in the United States before reaching dinner tables.865 Live farm animal long-distance transport not only spreads disease geographically, but can make animals both more infectious and more vulnerable to infection.

The answer lies less in the DNA of our cows and pigs and more in our subsidized system of intensive farming and long-distance trading in animals which encourages infections.

There is a danger that genetic modification will be used to shore up this system by making farm animals better equipped to survive cramped conditions.

Indirectly, it could even help to spread disease susceptibility by encouraging farmers to switch from genetically diverse breeds to high-yield GM [genetically modified] animals drawn from a narrow gene pool.”1936

Biodiversity is biosecurity. Even the most virulent of diseases typically do not kill all infected individuals, in part due to natural inborn genetic variability.

In the wild, natural selection takes advantage of this variation to pass disease-resistant qualities to the next generation.

1937 The diversity in nature tends to ensure that some individuals will survive whatever comes along.

Artificial selection for production qualities undermines Mother Nature in two ways, by inbreeding unnaturally elevated egg production and fleshiness over fitness, as well as by reducing the genetic diversity that can act as resistance insurance against present and unforeseen threats of disease.

Eat grass fed beef if you're worried about corn and soybeans as a feed source, millions do. Australia has about 1 million head in feedlots out of 28 million, with a strong emphasis on exports. The average cut of beef on the shelf is unlikely to have been feedlot produced, so don't worry. Of course people could just cut down on portion size since the only difference is marbling(fat) in the beef.

Your point about animal protein in pet food? Isn't that the plan for those carnivorous beasties. Shock/horror that they don't get quality cuts of choice meat.
Perhaps you could post a link where the source of petfood from deadstock operations(or any particular source) causes dog diabetes or cancer. Wouldn't simply reflect overfeeding and lack of exercise like in the human population would it?

"either they can back up their claims/opinions or they can't." I said it, I live by it. I'm surprised you could think otherwise. Where is that reference to the Canadian "TSE" diagnosed woman by the way. Tell me you're not serious about your "previous" April 28 reference to BSE, the one I questioned on the 29th. You failed to mention TSE then. Funny that.

"And when modern dehumanised man kills for food, the food will surely return the compliment"
that would explain the immortal vegans amongst us.
"surely"- not another stretch of the truth.

Hi all
Yabby, sweetheart, the reason that you can't see the corner/s you keep getting backed into is that you are totally myopic and blinkered to any point of view other than your own. And don't you think the oxytocin has been rather done to death now? As Dickie points out, it is wholly irrelevant.

I'll let you carnivores worry about the diseases you are ingesting.

PALE, I don't know anything much about the RSPCA at the national level, other than that the supremely useless Lynn Bradshaw is the President, and obviously they must have some scientific unit in there since Bidda Jones seems to be there in the national body. As for the rest, I don't really see how you can stop anyone meeting with whomever they want to meet with.

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky
Hi Just very quickly. Your one hundred percent correct. However the question we must ask ourselves what are they up to?

Any meeting anyway without AA would be useless IMOP.

AA would also be crazy to go there as would RSPCA National without the benefit of our many years of knowledge and close relationship.

For God sake why not simply accept our invfatation along with the lawyers that have worked under the Animal Welfare mOU with Muslim Leaders for years!
Consiering we have invited both RSPCA National and AA for many years surely you can understand our concern if not outrage at such a comment from Bidda.

We have put our thoughts in writing to RSPCA National and have personally left messages for our CEO up here in QLD.

I don’t care who gets upset the whole thing is a very obtuse and concerning event.

Is this the thanks we get from RSPCA for years of supporting them along with many years of our staff and lawyers giving up their busy time?

I wasn’t going to say anything yet but we are just about to go to Congress to put a Ban Live Exports vote forward.

This could screw up everything!

As I said earlier our lawyers are absolutely furious.

We are the ones with the MOUs with Muslim Leaders and there is no need for them to have 'not accepted'
our invasion- Unless?
If we are finished with RSPCA QLD thats up to Mark and a shame but we will not be kept silent regarding this outrageous move of RSPCA National.
Like I said. Who are they? To whom do they answer?

Who do RSPCA Answer to?
The Government?

I cant think of any other reason they would not accept the invation to sit with everybody together along with our lawyers and hopefully AA
Or this just down to simply egos?

I honestly dont know. Its outragous.

NIcky dear, perhaps you just imagine the corners. I in fact can
understand this debate from many angles and experience. You are of
course highly biased, based on flawed philosophies which you cannot
answer when I question you about them.

What amuses me is the contradictions in all your stories. One
minute somebody claims that AQIS are slack, next minute that they
are too strict for people wanting a license, so there must be a
conpiracy theory here by the Govt! What a load of cobblers. Yes,
they are too pendantic for my liking, but then that is their job.

Oxytocin has certainly not been done to death, it was a passing
comment, which you called sexist. So are the findings of endocrinology sexist, because different hormones affect the genders
in various ways? I think not, its just basic understanding of the
world. Nobody is saying it is right or wrong, that is just how it is.
That is what science is all about after all.

As to comments made about livestock moving diseases about, the real
problem is people moving diseases about. That does not mean that
we close all airports tomorrow, not yet anyhow. Release a potent
virus in HK airport tomorrow, within a day it will be spread around
the world.

Hi all
PALE, I have no idea what is going on with the RSPCA, but I'd suggest that Animals Australia would have even more years of experience, and as good if not better lawyers than PALE (if the most prominent one, whom I have met, is any indication). Why does it matter? From what I've understood from other posts of yours, your MoUs have fallen over in recent times, and it seems so has your relationship with the RSPCA in Queensland. I don't know what "outrageous" statement Bidda Jones may have made so I can't comment on that. Why does it matter who wins the final argument? If it is AA's strategies, then good for them (and the animals!).

Jones' report was excellent though, and in an April edition of the Victorian Weekly News and WA Countryman, the live exporters are begging the RSPCA not to withdraw from the Live Export Standards Committee, as Hugh Wirth has apparently foreshadowed they will do. Whatever I might privately think of the credibility of the RSPCA generally, that has to count for something. It looks a bit like the RSPCA and Animals Australia have found some common ground, so you might be incorrect in your assumption that AA refused to work with you because of your association with the RSPCA in Queensland.

Yabby dear, you are so far into the corner that you can't see your way out, that is your problem. Oxytocin (and cuddles) won't help, either, but a border collie cross might. We all know that AQIS gives licenses to anyone who wants them, never enforces anything, doesn't do any more than the minimum to keep itself off the public radar, and God forbid that it should penalize exporters who breach the MANDATORY standards. And we all know that the MANDATORY standards do nothing for the animals once they arrive in destination countries too. I've got some articles from Countryman here that detail exactly what MLA is doing about that, shall I transcribe them for you?

Have a happy evening,
Cheers
Nicky

Yabby dear, one final point. People tend to move themselves about largely by choice, whether en masse on aircraft or at airports or by other means. Animals would, given the choice, quite happily stay where they were born until they died of natural causes.

Dickie is absolutely correct intensive farming, long distance transport, growth promotants, antibiotics and other harmful chemicals and who knows what nasty materials fed to animals are really not doing you carnivores very much good at all. You are poisoning yourselves. But that's your lookout.

We need meat WHY?

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky dear, not a corner in sight anywhere, but keep imaging whatever
makes you happy lol.

*We all know that AQIS gives licenses to anyone who wants them, never enforces anything, doesn't do any more than the minimum to keep itself off the public radar, *

You had better explain that to Gertrude, who tells us that AQIS
won't issue licences to her friends to export meat, as its all
a consipiracy to promote live exports, or something similar (the
post was on another thread, but you would have read it perhaps)

So there you do dear, two posters claiming the opposite about
AQIS.

Nicky dear, what animals would do, given the choice, would depend
on the species. Swallows would fly a long way etc. But that is
not the point. The point is, if moving diseases around is your
worry, then humans are the no 1 culprit, not moving livestock around.

Not all of us carnivores eat factory farmed food. At the moment
my freezer and fridge contain some home grown lamb, some grass fed
beef and some free range chicken. That is my choice.

Factory farmed veggies might well contain far more harmful chemicals
then any meat which I choose to consume.

Meat, properly cooked, is absolutaly delicious Nicky. You must be a
bad cook :) A great lamb roast is one of the pleasures of life,
if its done right. Its also highly nutritious and healthy. Its also
a win-win. The lambs get to have comfortable and happy lives that
they would not have had at all, frolicking in the sunshine and
pasture, not a worry in the world. They are treated for any worms,
fed supplementary grain if feed is short, life is a breeze compared
to the realities of nature, across the fence in the nature reserve.

Any wild dogs etc are dealt with for them, as being ripped to bits
alive and dying slowly is not the most pleasant of deaths, as happens
in nature.

So they benefit, we benefit. They would not have had lives, if we did
not provide for them. Who eats them after death, I don't think they
really care about, I certainly don't, in my case.

Free range farming is quite different to factory farming, something
you don't seem to understand

Nicky

You assume to know what our lawyers can and cant do. How obtuse.

I have spoken with their lawyer and I dont agree.

Hes a lovely man with some common decency towards animals.

Either way if the QLD lawyers wish to start an action its curious once again that would cause you so much stress.

Why wouldnt animal lovers be delighted other lawyers and QCs wanted to help the animals.

As for RSPCA QLD that you have made many comments on I will tell you this.
As you know the CEO has always taken on many progects. Just the calls alone for RSPCA rescue and people flooding qld is an enormous job alone.
Also RSPCA QLD has led the way in many other areas. Yes its stressful and very busy.
Does the CEO QLD care- Yes he does.

As for people passing up our invatations years after years to meet with Muslim leaders is just as obtuse to now try to stomp in and take over.
If they really cared they would have expected five years ago- and onward.

AFIC and our organisation certainly had words over slaughtering methods as every other organisation made similar comments.

However you very wrong by saying we are no longer working under our mou. Also you are aware I have posted to you in the last few weeks we extended our invatation to rspca national - yet again.

I have spent half of the day on the phone speaking to leaders and will do likewise in the morning - so please do not tell me what we are and are not doing.

All that is wrong with some people is they want the credit for our many years of hard work.'

By gate crashing now it may cause real damage to something we have worked hard and long for in the pipeline for animals.

Anyway again its best left to the lawyers who trust me wont put up with interfearance on either matter.

Its dissapointing to know you are displeased a senior QC has taken an interest for the Animals.

Posts by Yabby


Nicky dear You had better explain that to Gertrude, who tells us that AQIS
won't issue licences to her friends to export meat, as its all
a consipiracy to promote live exports, or something similar (the
post was on another thread, but you would have read it perhaps)

Posted by Yabby, Monday, 5 May 2008 8:04:24 PM
Don’t talk to me about what happens in the ME. I made you an offer to help
change things when it comes to the slaughter of 12 million non Australian animals
pale comments

Perhaps Nicky could pass back to Yabby =
He may think hes riding high in the saddle, but soon he`ll be all hat and no cattle!

Nice of him to acknowledge there are huge problems with their own twelve million sheep – but hey Lets send our Australian Animals there anyway.

Hi all
PALE, it doesn't stress me out at all who wins the battle against live exports, and I would suggest that Animals Australia and other groups have been working every bit as hard on this as you say PALE has been. Nor did I pass comment on your lawyers, beyond saying that PALE is not the only organization to have them, and good ones too (in fact a panel of leading Barristers led by Graeme McEwen). I have only been interpreting (or trying to) what you have said in other posts, for example the RSPCA won't return your calls and the Muslim "leaders" are not observing MoUs and similar. I have also pointed out what are clear credibility gaps faced by all RSPCA State branches, and those are a matter of public record.

It's sad that it seems to be more about glory for PALE and the financial interests of your Muslim friends at HKM and those who work for them at the end of the day; that is certainly the impression you are giving here. Your posts seem to indicate that it is this that is a priority rather than the efforts others are making for the sake of the animals alone. You must also remember that they are not "single issue" organizations either and cover many areas of animal abuse.

You cannot force people to work with you or even speak with you if they do not like what you do, or simply choose not to do so for their own reasons. Nor can you reasonably expect every animal welfare group in the country to drop their campaigns because they may interfere with PALE's plans or activities.

As I have often said, you think there is only one way and that is PALE's way; there are clearly a lot of people who do not agree with you.

Cheers
Nicky

Hi all (again)
And to Yabby. That corner must be a rather lonely place really. The point about not sending Australian animals to these people to butcher is the moral position. That is why no animal welfare organization worthy of the name would have anything to do with Tim D'Arcy's senile ideas. They also do not have the government largesse thrown at them as MLA does.

Australian animals may not be an overwhelming number, but it is that number less who are so butchered. Your handful of MLA "trainers" are, as I have said before, a case of the "blind leading the blind" - animal abusers "training" worse animal abusers.

Then we have issues like language barriers, which must be evident given the lack of success they are obviously having in the minority of countries in which they are represented.

Cheers
Nicky