I thought it would be interesting to learn a little about what contribution Muslims have made to this country.

The character and outlook of Muslims are often generalised and stigmatised with stereotypes and many people do not realise that Muslims are as diverse as the number of nationalities in the world.

Muslims in Australia come from more than 60 ethnic groupings.

According to the 2001 Census, there are 282,578 Muslims in Australia with 35% being born here.

So why, the prejudice against them?

And please be civilized in your responses.

Foxy

Most reasonable people don't have a prejudice against Muslims or any cultural/religious group.

Muslims in Australia are a diverse bunch and often, like many groups, there are the hard liners and those that would work towards harmonious relations with their adopted countries.

You cannot stereotype Muslims as 'one' group. The prejudice exists probably because of the linking of Muslims to terrorism and the obvious differences in some cases like the wearing of the hajib. So the actions of a few in regard to terrorism influence the way Muslims might be treated across the world.

Muslims are the 'new' immigrants to Australia just like the Vietnamese were during the 70s/80s (the boat people) and the Europeans in the 50s/60s. Both groups experienced discrimination in some form or another (my European father for one) until the various groups became more accepted and integrated into their communities but while still retaining aspects of their culture.

It will take time and like all past immigrants, Muslims will be no different, as time passes and the situation softens up (ie. it is not new) we might begin to understand each other and accept the differences.

Dear pelican,

Thank you for your input. My grandparents and parents were also immigrants.

I agree with you, to many Westerners, Islamic fundamentalism seems like an almost scandalous return to a medieval morality. It conjures forth images of women behind veils, of adulterers being stoned, of thieves having their hands cut off, of public floggings and executions, of mardyrdom in holy wars, and, in very extreme cases, of political fanaticism exemplified in aircraft hijackings and terrorist bombings.

However, this picture is rather distorted, for it is based on what is newsworthy rather than what is typical.

Why has Islamic fundamentalism intensified at all - especially at a time when we might expect the societies involved to be moving forward, toward modernization, rather than backward, toward tradition?
That is something I'm still trying to work out.

Foxy,

I dunno, but perhaps fundamentalism - in many faiths - has intensified for the very reasons you cited: this is a period "when we might expect the societies involved to be moving forward, toward modernization, rather than backward, toward tradition."

We, as all other animals, have been programmed to react quickly and instinctively to fear. Fear is the automatic trigger that helps us react to danger immediately and thus aid in our survival. We see a spider or a snake? Quick! Stamp on it, kill it! It could be a harmless variety but, if not, our survival depends on immediate, instinctive action so we don't have the luxury of time to assess the danger rationally.

The Global Village concept is viewed from two perspectives - those who welcome it as progress towards global harmony, progress and modernisation; and those who fear it.

The impetus for globalisation is a first world concept. We are not trying to figure the whole world in the shape of some amorphous, traditional paradigm, but rather to shape it with the tools of technology developed in the modern, progressive societies of the dominant culture.

For those (and again, this refers to fundamentalists of all shapes and sizes)whose cultures differ from this brave new world this is a threat to their very survival. They fear.

And the instinctive reaction that has ensured their survival kicks in. Quick! Stamp on it! Kill it!.

Perhaps?

I agree that it is survival instinct that humans react to the unknown quality in the new.
But what people must realise is that while we have , somewhat grudgingly, accepted these Muslims as new citizens, they have not accepted us.
I know while people are sick of Hilali being dredged up so often, the deaths of our Australian holiday makers at Bali, the Australians in the Towers were not killed in battle but as a result of the twisted sick minds of Muslims who butchered because they had been taught to.
And now we have "Australian" Muslims charged with terrorism in our own courts.They have had a similar 'education'
We would be totally stupid to disregard all this, we cannot afford to.

Dear Romany,

I totally agree with you. Sociologists have observed that fundamentalist revivals, in whatever religion, take place in times when social changes have led to turmoil, uncertainity, and the erosion of familiar values.

When people find themselves confused, threatened, or even appalled at changing conditions, they may see a "return to basics" as a solution.

It is not suprising, I suppose therefore, that Islamic fundamentalism has surged in societies like Iran, which have experienced wrenching social change as a result of their new oil wealth. Some of these societies had previously remained culturally fairly static for generations - in some cases, for centuries. Then, in less than the space of a single life span, they were thrust into a world of airports and highways, schools and television, factories and power plants.

As part of this process, some of the Islamic societies have been flooded with foreign advisers, officials, and entrepreneurs. These new-comers may behave in a variety of ways that may deeply offend the locals. I am guessing here, but I think that in the view of the fundamentalists, foreigners, especially from the West, are a profoundly immoral and corrupting influence. I also believe that another reason is that the fundamentalists find it politically helpful to have an alien enemy. The solidarity of any community is enhanced if it perceives a common outside threat.

Hi Romany and Foxy

The rise of Islamic fundamentalism is one factor that influences our judgements about Muslims. The comments you both make about globalisation are valid to some extent but terrorism has been with us for a long time and is based on more than just the effects of a global stage. Globalisation has not solved the problems of equity, poverty, disempowerment and disenfranchisement which are the root causes of terrorism. There are many other deep rooted socioeconomic factors at play.

Certainly, with changes in technology and the way in which the world interacts so will this create opportunities for terrorism and transnational crime (the rates for both identity theft and international money laundering have increased markedly in recent years).

Globalisation should in theory provide opportunities for fairer and more equitable foreign and international economic policy which might serve to stem the tide of terrorism, but alas it also provides opportunties to exploit and thus create the wellspring for terrorism to breed and feed.

Greed is probably the biggest factor contributing to terrorism, Religion is just the wood for the fire.

Dear Mko,

Every religion has its share of zealots, fanatics, and extremists.
In Australia out of approximately 340,392 people (according to the 2006 census) or 1.71% of the population - it's only a small minority that cause problems.

The history of Muslims in Australia dates back to the 17th century, well before European contact with the mainland. The Makassan traders from Indonesia had a harmonious relationship with the Indigenous people of northern Australia.

The early fleets of settlers also used Muslims, from coastal Africa and the islands and territories under the British Empire, as slaves and navigators.

However, in the 1860's a large number of "Afghan" cameleers arrived in Australia to work the camel trains which opened up the interior of the continent.

They also accompanied the great explorers and were instrumental in guiding the teams through the hot and arid terrain. They eventually settled in the areas near Alice Springs and in the Northern Territory and many inter-married with the Indigenous population.

Muslims have continued to contribute positively to this nation. The Bosnian and Kosovar Muslims participated in the Snowy Mountains Scheme in the 1960s and in recent times, the largest and most lucrative Halal food export trade in the world is operated by Muslims here in Australia.

As I stated earlier Muslims in Australia come from more than 60 ethnic groupings. While a large number of them come from Turkey, Albania, Lebanon, there are Muslims from Indonesia, Bosnia, Iran, Fiji, Sudan, Egypt, the Palestinian territories, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India, among others.

Many have settled in Australia under the "skilled migration program" after completing studies at their own expense. Muslim doctors, engineers, lawyers, scientists, academics, tradespeople and blue-collar workers are participating in Australian life.

Muslim leaders - as with Catholic, Anglican, and Uniting Church leaders have promoted interfaith religious dialogue in order to encourage greater mutual understanding between peoples. Integration of the Muslim community is an on-going subject of debate in Australian society as with the interest of minority groups.

Education is the key to greater understanding.

I feel bad because Muslim people was victims in their countries, no democracy no respect to human rights, and they have problems as migrants although they have nothing to do with an extremely small minority of Muslim extremists. I have Muslim friends, very generous and honest persons and I trust more them than the Greeks (I am Greek).
TRUST MUSLIMS, THEY ARE VERY GOOD PERSONS, THEY HAVE STRONG MORAL CODE.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Foxy, there is a part of this tied up in the actions of a small number of people from a specific regional area that have contributed to the issue. Like it or not some young males with lebanese backgrounds have done a lot to contribute to the issue.

The lead up to Cronulla was as far as I'm aware almost entirely a backlash against the activities of that group. A former girlfriend of mine used to live near a house occupied by a group of young men who appeared to be lebanese and she had to change her exercise routines because of the perceived threat their verbal behaviours provided. A common theme seems to be a complete and utter contempt for women who are not part of their grouping.

I think that they are relatively small in number and not typical of muslims but the failure of their own communities to speak out combined with a perceived failure of the authorities to do anything about some of the more serious activities of the gangs along with the determination of the anti-muslim brigade to play on that stuff has had a significant impact on perceptions.

It's a situation where I think some of the harm could have been avoided if muslim spokespeople had been more willing to address the issue in public. What I saw was mostly avoidance and denial. Some were suggesting that they might be lebanese christains (a possibility but unlikely) and few seemed willing to clearly condem their activities. The actions of former mufti in appearing to excuse sexual assault also added fuel to the flame.

Our resident anti-muslim brigade have done much but muslim leaders have also played a big role by not being public in their condemnation of the activities of a minority doing real harm.

R0bert

Dear Robert,

I fully agree with you. I can't understand why the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils (AFIC) which has its headquarters in
Sydney is not more vocal. AFIC represents the Muslims of Australia at the national and international level. They have offices in each state.
But we don't hear much from them. And we should.

They would have more sympathy and understanding from the general public, - if they made it clear that they did not condone violence.
It would certainly help distill the image that is being presented in the media. I sometimes think that Muslims have now replaced what the
communists used to be - hated and feared.

Foxy said

Muslims have continued …
Pale comments.
Foxy you are correct when you said education is the key. The lucrative Halal food export is something that requires a very close look.
Yes a Halal slaughter man is appointed to bless animals (which are offering to Allah) as a sacrifice dueing slaughter) and the Halal Authority is charged with giving that plant their Halal Accreditation.

Halal Is not just a word but a way of life. It is the law and no law from any other country may have any say despite the fact that he country you are in may declare one or some of the procedures illegal in this country.

To add to the confusion their are many many Halal certified authorities and as with us this is very competitive.

Some Muslims insist that their people readily accept pre stunning of Animals which ismore humane.

Others refuse preferring that animals are left to gasp for a very long time drowning in their own blood while fully conscious.

Just prior to the last federal elections Muslims approached the Australian Government and there is to be a review of slaughtering methods in Australia.

Muslim leaders around six years ago approached the Howard Government to ask that all abattoirs in Australia were made Halal without stunning. He said no.

Now leaving animal welfare out of the argument for just one moment this must bring to the attention of any fair minded person that never before in the history of migrants have we ever been challenged on our laws.

So if the Australian Government rolls over at the poor animal’s expense yet again asks you what laws next will they demand is changed.
No we have never had these types of problems with other migrants and I know only too well how very much further the word Halal Goes if we don’t stand up now and say NO
That includes especially our Australian Muslim Leaders. It is up to them to lead the way and teach Muslims to respect our laws in our own country.
Pre Stun Animals and abide Australia`s Laws.

Faxy having said that it's probably appropriate to point out that a desire not to air the dirty laundry (or deny it's existance) in public is something plenty of other groups have done very well at.

Many of the cases in the christain church where leadership has covered up for child abusers and in some cases left child abusers in contact with children have been far worse because the leaders had a specific responsibility to act.

Likewise most of us are keener to point out the failings of our opponents than our friends and relatives.

All to often leaders don't lead.

R0bert

Instead of “prejudice against them”, perhaps the question should be why Muslims have so much prejudice against non-Muslims... Of course, Muslims must always blame their problems of anything and everybody but their religion and themselves.

This would be a good time and place for Muslims to explain the generalized hate, oppression and violence against non-Muslims everywhere they dominate. This would be a good time to ask why other immigrant groups do not have the same issues of hate and violence that follow Muslim like a shadow.

Of course, Muslims don’t want to talk about these issues. They, and their multi-culturalist, PC friends, only want to focus on “prejudice” against Muslims, as if there were no motives that might contribute to that prejudice.

Maybe, who knows, they are “stigmatized with stereotypes” and maybe this “prejudice” has something to do with their actions.

Yes, Muslims are diverse, but last time I checked they all follow the Quran and accept its message of hate and violence without questions. Yes, they are diverse but these same issues are always present. Doesn’t that give you a clue? Yes, they are of many color and nationalities, but they all love and respect a man that did many vile things according to their own scriptures. Of course, they are only “vile” if you consider raids, plunder, murder, torture, slavery, rape, wife beating, oppression and preaching hate to be bad, but maybe these aren’t bad if Mohammad and Muslims do them.

Foxy, I am being civilized -- and honest. I wouldn’t have to raise these issues if Muslims would address these terrible problems. But no, things just get worse and worse because Muslims refuse to look at their religion and actions. They blame all their problems on everybody but themselves, their actions and Islam. In a way, people like me and others are better friends to Muslims than those who pretend there are no problems – as we all walk down the road to a future hell on earth wherein these questions will be discussed in blood, not words.

Thank you for talking about this.

Kactuz

Dear people...Prejudice.. 'people' ? yes..and no.

I'm not prejudiced against 'Germans' but I am VERY prejudiced against 'nazis'

It should be about 'prejudice against evil doctrines'

I am VERY prejudiced against the Jehovah Witness doctrine which they use to justify letting an innocent defenseless child DIE rather than give a blood transfusion..

I will speak..and rant..and froth..about the injustice and inhumanity of such a thing. Only an infantile knee jerk moron would translate opposition to a doctrine into personal abuse of people. The options are

-'persuade' people..by passionate debate and presenting facts.
-'Enforce' compliance by legal means.. change the law.

Looking around for 'good things Jehovah's witnesses have done in Australia' (to extend Foxy's example to them) does nothing.. zero.. for changing the deathly doctrine which can only be described as 'child abuse'.

So.. this thread.. is quite dangerous if it shifts the focus from the important point and tries to turn serious issues into simple anecdotal points scoring for various religious groups.

DON'T be prejudiced against people wo in their ignorance follow certain doctrines.
DO be prejudiced against abuse, inhumanity and cruelty.

DO be prejudiced against "people" who.. after knowing exactly what their beliefs mean for others.. (The destruction of Jews and Christians in the Quran) still persist..and dig their heels in and show no intention of retreating from what they now know to be true of their own belief.

BE prejudiced against them at the legal..social and cultural levels.
DO all you can to change the law to protect yourself democratically from such views and....such people.

BE...like Jesus.. yes.. like Him... as he used the above pattern 100%

He did signs and miracles to show the truth of His messiahship... and when this was accepted.. he blessed the hearers.
When he did signs which were irrefutable..and showed his divine credentials..and they were rejected ?.....

"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes."

This..is the real Jesus....not the sentimental invented one.

*smiling.....smiling*....

myyy goodness :)

Robert.. well said mate...

Foxy responds:

Dear Robert,

I fully agree with you. I can't understand why the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils (AFIC) which has its headquarters in
Sydney is not more vocal.

err.Foxy.. you can't...but I can.

One possssible reason might be.. that Tom Zrieka tried it..and received death threats within hours.
This is entirely consistent with Mohammad.. sending a hit squad to 'silence Ka'b Bin Al Ashraf..for 'mocking' him.
("Silence"=hacked him to bits and slashed him right left and centre)

But hey..lets focus on the 'nice' Muslims....rather than the one on whom their faith is based.

Can anyone imagine what the Catholic or Anglican church would be like if Jesus had ACTUALLY molested children ?

cheers.

Boazy, if it's the case that the teachings of islam support child abuse and the teachings of the christain church are opposed to it then people of both faiths have done a remarkable job of going against the teachings of their faith.

One of the problems of trying to discuss issues such is this is that the dishonest will try and distort whatever is said to support their own twisted message. Probably a significant reason for muslim leadership being been unwilling to publically confront what problems do exist.

"DO be prejudiced against "people" who.. after knowing exactly what their beliefs mean for others still persist..and dig their heels in and show no intention of retreating from what they now know to be true of their own belief."

So what do your beliefs say about me as someone who does not follow your god? Last I heard that meant your beliefs were proposing an eternity of suffering for me. Hellfire and brimstone and all that.
Not nice at all.

"DO all you can to change the law to protect yourself democratically from such views and....such people."

Amen to that.

R0bert

ROBERT...at last :)

"So what do your beliefs say about me as someone who does not follow your god? Last I heard that meant your beliefs were proposing an eternity of suffering for me. Hellfire and brimstone and all that."

Rob... you yourself know what the scriptures teach.

It is up to each one of us to place ourselves either for... or agaist the following:

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

You know exactly where you stand, and why.

You can question the authority of the scriptures.. of God.. of all.. and perhaps because of that, there is still hope. But my position and that of any serious Christian, is to proclaim.... invite.... explain.

Jesus did suggest that there is a point where further proclamation is futile..and that once a clear presentation of truth is made, and is rejected, then "shake off the dust of your feet against them".

I suspect that this was uttered in a context where a considerable number of healings and signs and miracles took place, because those things were characteristic of the in-breaking of the Kingdom during Jesus lifetime and that of the Apostles.. and continues in various places by Gods grace to people today. I have previously testified to it myself.

Yes..if you (and anyone)were to die today, unrepentant.. you would have issues of great importance that you would need to face. This translates into nothing more by us than the simple statement of the fact. There is no biblical 'human wrath' for apostasy from Christ.

Unlike my usual target, there is no call to dish out what I asked Foxy to read the other day, which she apparently did, but remained silent after.. while knowing full well that by all measure of reasonable conduct she should have at least acknowledged that it was real and horrific.

Under Christ.. we are under patient and enduring Grace. Under 'the other' mob, you are under threat of death if you did what you did in their system.

Every ideology, whether economic, political, familial, or religious, is based on certain characterizing features. These features of a given ideology are its fundamental principles.

Logically, then, fundamentalism would mean an attitude, an effort or a movement which adheres to or tries to promote these fundamentals.
For instance, when we speak of a free market economy and private ownership of property, we describe the fundamentals of modern capitalism, and those who conduct their economic affairs accordingly may aptly be called capitalists. When we talk of the government of the people, for the people and by the people, we point out the fundamental principles of modern Western democracy; and those who practice and promote this form of polity may be called democratic people or nations. Also, when some believe in the principle of Trinity and the Gospel as the inspired word of God, they are declaring the fundamental principles of Christianity and are known as Christians.

Likewise, there are certain essentials that characterize Islam and differentiate it from odther systems or idealogies of the past and the present. Those who believe in these as inviolable aspects of Islam are the ones called Muslims.

Described in these terms fundamentalism means the core of all what the adherents of an ideology believe and are expected to practice.

However, what appears to be surprising is that we never hear of democratic fundamentalism, capitalist fundamentalism, socialist fundamentalism or secularist fundamentalism. The term fundamentalism is almost exclusively used in the context of religion.

What is disturbing is that whenever used, fundamentalism is spoken of in a highly value laden manner almost invariably with negative connotations - some thing highly dogmatic, something that does not belong in the modern world, and something that has to be reckoned with.

To the sensitive Muslim audience, then, the term Islamic fundamentalism seems to carry a message, loud and clear: "Believe in Islam if you will, just don't practice it!"

Christian fundamentalism emphasizes the uncritical authority of the Bible. Imagine then - if the world told Christians, "Believe in the Bible, just don't practice it!"

Believe in the Bible....and practice it.......

and what is the downside of that ?

-No one will be hurt..(except their feelings perhaps)
-No one will be killed if they leave the faith.
-Women will be 'regarded as sisters..in all purity'.
-Young men will have joy, peace self control and honest ambition.
-Believers will reach out to the weak and try to give them a leg up.
-Believers will try to be peacemakers as far as it depends on them.
(making peace can also include exposing the source of war or conflict)
-Enemies will be loved, even if their ideologies are hated or rejected.
-No one will seek to have sexual relations with those serving him.
-No person will be regarded as a 'possession'. (even the NT calls on slave masters to treat slaves as brethren in Christ)
-The good news of eternal salvation and reconciliation to God will be proclaimed (that might annoy some, but hey..they can change the chanel)

Personally....I can't see the problem of a 'Christian' fundamentalist.

On the other hand..

-Sex with captive slave girls.
-Child abuse permitted.
-Domestic violence against women enshrined in dogma
-War on those who simply insult your faith or its founder.
-Killing those who reject your faith.
-Violence against those who claim your faith is 'violent'...
-Political plans to take over the world.
-Riots when people say 'mean things' about your prophet (7th day straight in Denmark)

Well..whatever faith is like that.. I shudder at the thought of a fundamentalist follower of such a faith.

We must be honest,
Christians are champions in the crimes, two world wars from Christians against Christians, Colonists the best killers and magicians on our planet, nations disappeared, one genocide followed the other and everything was OK. Slavery the best business in the town, half African population sold as slaves by Christians. When first Christians won ethnics, they destroyed schools, libraries, arts, and created the best detention centers in many Greek islands. Crusaders the sharpest knife in the universe, they killed not only the Muslims but thousands of Christians , see Byzantium. Turn your head around on our planet and you will see who are the real killers. We do the main job but we blame the Muslims. They are good but to kill their self, as suicide bombs, the idiots! Today Christians have convinced their self, that they are innocent, the hypocrites.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

I heard on the BBC the other day that around 95% of the world's Muslims are creationists. I can't find a source for it though.

Still, if true, interesting. Thoughts?

Don't give them anymore attention,since this is what they want.They want to play the poor victim since this gives them more political leverage.We are letting the smallest religious group get the greatest amount of attention.We are giving in to their demands simply because of the threats of violence.eg Anti-religious vilification Laws in Victoria.
Just ignore them and simply say no politely,when they demands things like Sharia law to be introduced.Enough said.

Danielle
1) I am atheist
2) what do you expect from so religious persons?
About creationism in Islam go to:
http://www.iheu.org/node/2794 The Rise of Islamic Creationism
Taner Edis is associate professor of physics at Truman State University, Kirksville, MO, USA.
or
http://assembly.coe.int/Main.asp?link=/Documents/WorkingDocs/Doc07/EDOC11297.htm The dangers of creationism in education
Committee on Culture, Science and Education, European parliament(about Muslim creationists in Europe).

You are writing very often. Are you trying to change our world alone?

Below are some modern English translation extracted from the Quor'an indicating Allah created everything in six daylight periods. Which can be assumed from other defined ideas from Muslim websites. Allah made the Universe in six daylight periods and man as a growth from the earth.

Sura, "7.54": "Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods of time, and He is firm in power; He throws the veil of night over the day, which it pursues incessantly; and (He created) the sun and the moon and the stars, made subservient by His command; surely His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah, the Lord of the worlds".

Sura, "32.6": This is the Knower of the unseen and the seen, the Mighty the Merciful,
"32.7": Who made good everything that He has created, and He began the creation of man from dust.
"32.8": Then He made his progeny of an extract, of water held in light estimation

I feel compelled to point out that Philo is a self proclaimed christian, who also believes in creationism. He has written many a post on his rejection of evolution.

Here, I have to wonder, is he saying he is in agreement with the Koran (a first) and if so why has he vilified islam on so many other threads?

Christians and Muslims have more in common than not.

Dear Antonios...

you went to great effort there to remind us that 'Christians' were guilty of all manner of historic crimes.

Whenever I see such a thing, I won't aim my response to you personally, but to the information you gave.

All I want to point out, as I've pointed out soooooo many times in the past, is this:

1/ When so called Christians engage in cruelty and wars of territorial expansion and slaughter.. they do so AGAINST the clearly expressed teaching and example of Christ.

2/ When Muslims do the same thing, they do so IN TOTAL HARMONY with Mohammad's teaching and example.

Does this mean anything to you ? I sureeeelllllyyy hope so mate.

What it means is.. please "don't" use so called Christian history of wars etc, to negatively comment about the faith itself.

By all means do so for Islam.. as there is no conflict with its foundations.. but there IS a huge conflict with such things and Christ.

So.. in future,sure-refer to history.. and war..and cruelty, but please don't say 'Christians' did this. What you SHOULD be saying is: "In complete enmity with and opposition to, the teaching and example of Christ Jesus, many people using his name have done terrible things"

The only connection this has with 'Muslims in Australia' is as outlined above.. "IF" they resorted to civil disobedience, attacks.. warlike actions, due to say 'Cartoons' they find offensive, they are totally in harmony with their faith. "Fight those who do not believe in Allah" 9:29

This is happening RIGHT NOW as we speak in Denmark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3T8rr5w3a8

there..you can see it in living color.. "now".

Why do they react so passionately about insults? Why do Christians NOT react in that way? ..there is... a reason.

"Love your enemies and do good to those who persecute you"

(but if there are stupid laws which disadvantage you as a Christian in a democracy, use all lawful means to change them)

THIS IS CLASSIC :)

Try to unpack this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7251378.stm

STAGE 1
"Before it was my clothing was not correct, the food I ate wasn't good enough, the way I expressed myself wasn't good enough - now my Prophet is not good enough. The next would be I am not good enough," he says.

STAGE 2
Radical Islamist parties have been quick to channel this sense of alienation.

Hizb ut Tahrir in Denmark organised a protest against the reprinting of the cartoons.

STAGE 3
Hundreds of demonstrators marched through the streets of Copenhagen shouting "God is Great!" and "Freedom of Speech is a plague!" Some Danes looked rather surprised.

NOTICE that last sentence ? :) how ironic. They are USING the freedom of speech....in a democratic country.... to CONDEMN "freedom of speech."

There is a little message in that for some of us.

The alienation, comes NOT from such things as mentioned by that person. But from things like "Don't take Christians and Jews as friends" in the Quran....when the dividing line is thus established from 'their' side.. well shock horror.. people react to it.. and voila.. "They all hate us"(Muslim speaking) and thus stage 1 above is born.

blessings.

The fundamentals of Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant, Jehovah's Witness and the Mormon religions (just as examples) have irreconcilable differences among them.

Even among the fundamentalists of those religions themselves, there is scant unity. Consequently, Christianity has become, perhaps, the most sect infested religion in the world today.

Preaching fundamentalism has become big business in America. Evengalism seems to have all the trappings of modern multinationals - extraordinary large capital, large investments, complex bureaucracy, large "cuts" for the senior executives, a jet set life style, large domestic and an expanding overseas clientele, and an increasing political clout. In a primarily business oriented society like America, none would call this material success of the fundamentalists heresy. However, to make questionable presentations in order to lure the clientele is like passing an adulterated product in the market.

Fundamentalism was shocked to the core and its membership plummeted in the recent past as incidences of sexual and financial scandals came to the surface in the early 90's, involving some of the most prominent fundamental ministers. Court convictions and a series of libel suits and counter suits that followed did not help the cause to say the least.

Just as all Christians can't be lumped together -
because there are so many different versions of practitioners. The same goes for Muslims. There are so many different national groups -
with their own sets of problems.

The teachings of the Qur'an (as with the teachings of the Bible) - are open to interpretation - and are practiced differently (especially by the two sects in Islam - Shia and Sunni). There is the fundamentalist Islam, and the non-fundamentalist Islam. There are those among Muslims who believe in the basic principles of Islam and there are those who do not. Then there are also nationalistic and social grievances that underlie the religious roots.

The situation has to be looked in in its entire context to be fully understood. It can't be dismissed with - "We're Christians - therefore - we're good." "They're Muslims - therefore - they're evil!"

Muslims in Australia - or anywhere in the West - are going to have to make many changes in their public personae before they cease to be viewed with suspicion.

Their beliefs and customs, in the privacy of their own homes, are their own business, but they are a long way short of accepting that they have to fit in with the rest of us in public.

The dress adopted by some Muslim women for instance at worst rouses thoughts of hidden bombs; at best, it looks downright silly.

Comparing Muslims with other immigrants i.e. race as compared with religion is way off the mark. Australia's non-discriminatory immigration policy has seen just about every race on earth coming here and, in most cases, being accepted.

An in-your-face religion, however, is an entirely different matter in a secular country.

Foxy

Your posts are always consistent, well reasoned and beautifully succinct. Problem is the fundy extremists of any religious persuasion are no more capable of learning from your wisdom than they are of truly looking at their beliefs objectively.

Thank you for your informative posts - I have learnt a great deal about Muslims in Australia. Keep up the excellent work.

Fractelle,
Can you be so ignorant. On many occasaions I have stated that I am not a six x 24 hour creationist. I believe in creational design with limited form of change within genetic lines. Evolution has not explained how lifeless material became mindfull genetic forms. I mix with a group of science professors in my Church and they have difficulty with the claim of atheistic evolutionists. Blind acceptance of atheistic evolution as a fact springs from school curriculum indoctrination.

Dear Leigh,

It is unfortunate that the image of Muslims today to some people is that of "Terrorism," thanks to extremists within their group.

Islam in Australia is the second largest minority religion after
Buddhism. Christianity is the majority religion. The south-north railway is named "The Ghan" after the Muslim "Afghan" cameleers who were credited with saving the lives of numerous early European explorers (and were vital for exploration).

You spoke about Australia's tolerant immigration policy? In the early twentieth century, Muslims of non-European descent experienced many difficulties in emigrating to Australia because of a government policy which limited immigration on the basis of links with Great Britain and Ireland. Known as the "White Australia Policy," this was used to maintain social homogeneity in the Commonwealth of Australia and to preserve the economic standing of the peoples already settled.

Some Muslims still managed to come to Australia. In the 1920s and 1930s, Albanian Muslims were accepted - it could be argued - because of their European heritage, which was more compatible with the "White Australia Policy." Albanian Muslims built the first mosque in Victoria in the town of Shepparton in 1960, and the first mosque in Melbourne in the year 1963.

It's interesting. There is a deep split within the Australian
Muslim community. Most Muslims in New South Wales are Arabs, whereas most Muslims in Victoria are of Turkish or Albanian ethnicity. There are also significant Pakistani and Bangladeshi Muslim communities in both cities, numbering roughly 10-12 thousand from each community in the country. Victorian Muslims tend to be generally more secular and indications show they are much more integrated than those in New South Wales.

There have been arguments between the two communities with the mainly moderate Turkish Australian community refusing to accept the more fundamentalist Taj El-Din Hilaly (an Arab born in Egypt) as Australia's mufti. Victorian Imams have never recognised Hilaly. However, as of 2007, Hilaly is no longer recognised as a mufti.
As one Muslim said, "He's an ignorant man - and we've got enough of those in the Australian Christian Community!" (smile).

"1/ When so called Christians engage in cruelty and wars of territorial expansion and slaughter.. they do so AGAINST the clearly expressed teaching and example of Christ."

Better make that
1/ When so called Christians engage in cruelty and wars of territorial expansion and slaughter.. they do so against the clearly expressed teaching and example of selected portions of the bible but in close harmony with other portions. Pick the bits that suit and claim they represent what god wants.

R0bert

R0bert
Obviously you do not realise that both Jews and Muslims follow the attitudes and behaviours of the Old Testament warriors while Christians who follow Christ adhere to his new passive teachings regarding attitudes and behaviours.

For Christians the Old Jewish nationalisn sets the scene for the relavence of Christ and his message of personal reconciliation.

Mohamet studied the teachings of both books and because his national heritage has more in common with Israel being a descentant of Abraham than Rome in the 6th century AD his attitudes followed that of his Jewish instructors more than of his Roman instructors. Though his writings contain praise of Jesus son of Mary in the Quor'an.

The Israeli - Arab tribal conflict is as old as the jealousy of the brothers Esau and Jacob.

To Quote you, "When so called Christians engage in cruelty and wars of territorial expansion and slaughter.. they do so against the clearly expressed teaching and example of selected portions of the bible but in close harmony with other portions. Pick the bits that suit and claim they represent what god wants."

Fascinating......

Foxy.. a lot of your last post was based on 'media stereotypes' rather than serious research.. did you not think of that ?

I've not said "Christans Good/Muslims bad"

I've said. "Christianity" good.. "Islam" bad.

Now.. the 'irreconcilable differences' of which you speak between Christian traditions and the couple of cults you mentioned.. are at the doctrinal level and none of them adhere to any idea of 'fighting' to promote their faith. Primarily because there is nothing in the New Testament which can be rightfully used as a basis for that.

Of course..anyone can indulge in anachronistic iso-gesis and read into the text which is not there. Hitler did.

EVANGELISM ? I think you used that term as a synonym for all the worst excesses of high profile "Prosperity gospel" TELEvangelism.. so called.. which has, in most cases not much correlation to the Biblical pattern.
Much of what you mentioned is in direct conflict with the Bible.. so.. why not actually see what it says about Christian leadership? (pastoral epistles)

INTERPRETATION. This is very easy to 'say' but difficult to use as an easy 'wayout' of saying a particular faith is bad.
Reasons.. very easy.. there are only so many ways a text can be interpreted. Context..determines how a text must be interpreted.
Then.. we add culture and idiom. There are sound principles which determine how something should be intepreted.

Example "Fight those who believe not in Allah etc" (9:29)

Some Muslims add the word "back" just after "fight" and claim that this is referring to defensive fighting.

How do we resolve the dilemna "Offensive or Defensive" ? simple.. we goto the hadith and see how Mohammad himself understood and applied it.. and his closest disciples.. and we find it means "Offensive".

Foxy,
You asked why there is prejudice about muslims. Two reasons.

1. Muslims have a world wide poor reputation for being violent and consider the lives of infidels to be of low value.

2. Lebanese muslims have given all muslims in Australia a bad reputation, because of their dictatorial and arrogant attitudes. They show no respect for us, our laws or social norms. They do not get along with any other ethnic group.

We only get the odd problem from muslims of other nationalities.

Why do not other muslims say the Lebs are the ones causing disharmony? Boaz put his finger on that when he said about the death threats to Tom Zrieka. Other Muslims are simply afraid to critisise the Lebs. It is not wise for one muslim to critisise other muslims publicly, especially for infidels to hear. Lebs are the strongest group of muslims numerically and any critisism could mean violent repercussions.

If we took the view that Lebanese muslims refuse to integrate and cause a lack of harmony, so we refuse to allow any more to immigrate.
Not only would our community benefit but many other muslims of other nationalities would welcome such a move, sercetly of course.

Philo

ON many occasions you have attempted to validate ‘intelligent design’ over that of evolution, that you have attempted here to attach some scientific claim to your beliefs is sadly puerile.

1. ‘Intelligent’ design is NOT science – it is an attempt for those who take their bible literally to justify their beliefs, people such as yourself.

2. The theory of evolution is accepted by many diverse people (not just atheists) so to refer to it as if it is exclusively an atheist construct, reveals YOUR ignorance, Philo.

3. Many Muslims believe in evolution, my point was that it is only the extremists in religions who tend to believe in creationism or in your case ‘intelligent’ design.

4. Reasonable people irrespective of whether they believe in a god or not have as much to fear from Christian fundies for their political agenda just as much as they do Islamic, Hindu or any other religion which is aligned with dogma, inflexibility, hatred of difference (women, gays, atheists) and a desire to impose their will on everyone else.

For those who are recent to OLO, they may check the following links to Philo’s posts on ‘intelligent’ design. Just to whet the appetite, here’s a quote from Philo:

“Intelligent Design has equal validity as a theory and the intimate details of life have dependent purpose.”
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=164#13953

I know many Muslims, new to this country who treat me with more respect than is delivered by the Australian born, fundamentalist Christian such as Philo.

That there is a belief by some Muslims in creationism is no different to Christians who believe in the same.

As Foxy has successfully demonstrated there is as much diversity of interpretation of the koran as there is with the old and new testaments. Therefore, to paint all muslims with one brush is simply bigoted.

Fractelle,
I am comparing foundational beliefs of the religion not the people who call themselves a follower of a religion. Christian ought to follow Christ, just as Muslims adhere to Mohamet.

Fractelle,
'I know many Muslims, new to this country who treat me with more respect than is delivered by the Australian born, fundamentalist Christian such as Philo.

With the belief that the dogma of evolution is true you deserve respect but your fantasy does not.

Dear BD,

Yes, I have done my research. I'm trained to do so , as part of my profession - my information is not based on "media stereotying," as you suggest, quite the contrary..

As far as your concept of - "Christianity" - good, "Islam" - bad. That is merely your concept. To which you are of-course entitled. But unless you are a qualified theologian, as well as a scholar of the Qur'an - your opinion/concept - is just that.

There are many versions of the Qur'an - and very many parts. It's a very complex study - and takes many years to decipher - and even then, not all scholars agree on each interpretation - as there are so many variants. It's not something that can be summed up so simply and easily - especially by a Westerner. And reading certain "sites" on the web - does not make you a knowledgeable expert on the subject.

The same goes for Christianity. As I tried to point out in my earlier post - not every religion emphasizes the uncritical authority of the Bible. Many church members as well as a number of church leaders demand a more liberal understanding of the Bible in the light of historical and scientific information. Many don't see the infallibility of the Bible, the eternal sinfulness of man, the atonement of Jesus for the sin of man, and his imminent return to a reign of one thousand years.

But enough said. We can argue till we're blue in the face. Nothing will change. You are entitled to your opinion - all I ask is that you respect mine, and don't patronize me.

Cheers.

FRACTELLE... are you fractured ? I'm beginning to think so.

The ONLY people thus far who are saying anything about 'all Muslims' is Foxy... when claiming that others are condemning them all.. and YOU who is for some strange reason claiming in the complete absense of actual evidnce the same thing.

Banjo pointed to ONE GROUP among the Muslms.. "Lebanese"..

Philo did not even mention "Muslims" he mentioned Mohammad.

I've not mentioned 'Muslims' in the sense you imply..I've been going on about 'Islam'...

So.. at this stage 'fractured' is the verdict. Until evidence to the contrary supporting what you say is forthcoming.

Puh-lease stop whining about respect. What you really mean is 'agreeing with you'.

Philo claims to know professors of science, who are both members of his oddball congregation and simultaneously amti-evolutionists. As I recall, the equally oddball runner has made similar claims.

I challenge you to name them. If they are, indeed, real professors they are most likely being paid from the public purse and should be outed.

Foxy
Where do I start? Should I.

http://www.halakindmeats.com/

Perhaps bit by bit I may start to share 'some things'. AFIC are only a small office with a handful of staff.
There have been times of hardship and unbelibable pressure, inta fighting receivership, elections and re-elections friendships laughter anger co operation good will deceit lays loyalty and then some.

If I disclose to the public some things I may be jeopardizing the only possibility to realize the goals of our program. If I don’t I then maybe …

Something has to change. Dr Ali has commented in the Muslim times. Ikabel enjoyed our person support for years including a letter of recommendation to John Howard.

Foxy I didn’t follow up on a request a meeting with the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs as we had no firm proposal to put to him due to the Muslims doing their usual back flip. We also heard no more on Paradise Country which raises serious concerns regarding some aboriginal’s statements they did not trust the white people or wish to follow through on programmes despite the offer of millions of government funding. This is far more typical in city type areas than regional- ‘at the moment’

Irrespective of what the Muslims may have signed they have not honoured the MOU nor have they really proceeded in the spirit of the document.

To them the MOU really means nothing if you judge by their conduct to date. Even if they are in breach they don’t worry we sue them and if we did what is the loss? It is an only an MOU after all.

I believe it premature to see Rudd unless you have some mandate/agreement with the Muslims – and to date they just jerk us infidels around.

Without a concrete proposal and the ability to say it has the full support of both HKM, Animal Rights, etc and the Muslim Council Rudd will just blow us off and say come back when you have something.

I am happy to help out with HKM as time permits with same commitment .

Fantastic replies Philo, Runner and Boaz

First to Philo for his attempt at semantics in order to evade the issue.

Second to Runner, for clearly demonstrating what a narrow mind set a fundamental belief in religion creates.

And last, but really honours to Boaz David for his completely unwarranted insults thus proving my point about the inherent rudeness that accompanies the religious extremist. Well done. Just have to wonder when Jesus preached insulting others different to themsevles, must have missed that on my bible classes.

And here we are, worrying about Muslims...

To the readers out there, remember that there a lot more fundy christians in Australia than there are fundy muslims - think about that.

Don't worry CJ they are both very sucessfull in their fields and operate sucessfull private businesses. They are international advisors one in space exploration and electronics [just retired], and the other in botany and horticulture holding international patents on horticultural products. The first a convinced six day creationist, the second a creation design exponent. He sees too many anomalies in evolution alone to be a credible science.

I don’t think the problem is with Muslims themselves but their religion. I believe it requires a medieval environment to survive. They haven’t achieved much since the 13th century have they? The economies of the Muslim countries seems parallel to the degree they embrace their religion. The exception is the oil exporters who are lucky enough to have a temporary windfall. Job opportunities are dismal in the Muslim world and this generates anger and envy especially among the educated and potentially more dangerous. The ability to read the Koran in Arabic does not have any application in the current world economy.

Fractelle: "To the readers out there, remember that there a lot more fundy christians in Australia than there are fundy muslims - think about that"

Indeed - I've been making exactly that point in this forum for some time.

I see that Philo avoids the point as usual. I think he knows a couple of fundy frootloops who have science degrees. So do I, but no way in the world will they ever be appointed "professors".

It seems that Philo is as loose with the truth as his brother in bigotry, Boazy. Remember his claim that those of us in favour of multiculturalism have "never lived in another culture"?

Yes CJ that is why Australia is overrun with fundy Christians who are threatening to bomb infidels. that is why Australia is such a violent culture if we are to believe your lies. The facts are irellavent to your debate.

The whole point of this thread was not to "promote" religion - as one poster accused me of doing in another thread - but to promote understanding and tolerance. Muslims have existed in
Australia for decades - without any problems. Today - their situation is a complex one - and it's simplistic and ignorant to blame it all on their religion. There are so many national groups - which are so diverse. It is only a small minority of Muslims that have embraced extremist idealogies and violent tactics.

Before 1967, Islamic fundamentalism was a relatively small movement. However, Israel's swift success over Egypt, Jordan and Syria in the Six Day War spelled the end of Arab nationalism as an effective political movement to which citizens throughout the Arab world could rally, while Israel's conquest of Jerusalem, the third-most holy site in Islam, transformed the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from a regional conflict into one that affected all Muslims. Other crises throughout the Muslim world - upheaval in Malaysia in 1969, Pakistan's invasion of Bangladesh in 1971, and later, the revolution in Iran and the Lebanese civil war - spurred the sense that the West had failed Muslim societies not only as an ally but as a viable model of development.

Ironically, while radical Islamic groups have recently come to the forefront of policy concerns in Washington, the UK, and Australia, the United States and her allys, have frequently encouraged such movements either by outright support, as in Afghanistan where the U.S. supported mujahideen efforts to oust the Soviet Union, or by supporting oppressive regimes that then trigger a backlash both against the government and against the United States for supporting it, as in Iran.

The US and the Western world must clearly understand the reasons why a small but dangerous minority of Muslims have embraced extremist idelaogies and violent tactics. These movements are often rooted in legitimate grievances voiced by underrepresented and oppressive segments of the population, particularly the poor and the US and the West is increasingly identified with the political, social and economic forces that are responsible for their misery.

Laughing out loud.. rolling around the floor.... good GRIEF fractelle :)

Howww many times have you seen insults directed at me.. I mean REAL insults. "Armchair Nazi".. "bigoted".. Bozo.. in fact the insults to me have reached an all time (and most satisfying) high with one person actually taking me seriously enough to invent a 'Bozo Dagwood' nick.. just to mock me.. I luv it :)

Stop whining about 'fractured'.. All you did there was confirm to every one able to read, that most critics of we anti pc brigade love to 'give' but seldom like to 'take'....

MOVVVing on...

INTEPRETATION.

Now.. we need to lift ourselves (Foxy/Romany) out of this head in the sand "you will never convince me" attitude and begin to open our minds to some truth. Truth..about 'how documents should be interpreted'.

1/ Most of life is based on..documents and their interpretation.
a)Law.
b)Technology.
c)Constitutions.

2/ In a chapter of probably 5000+words of 'a book' .. here is a little morsel which needs to be 'interpeted'

<<Hence the Jewish leadership in trade-union affairs remains uncontested until an enormous work of enlightenment influences the broad masses and sets them right about their never-ending misery, or else the state disposes of the Jew and his work.>>

Now.. 'How should the last phrase be intereted'?

a) Literal meaning of the words. 'Disposed of'
Thus..it could mean 'removing/exiling'.... not so bad.

b) We could look at how the author of those words and his close associates.. ACTUALLY implemented them.. in history!

Then..we can conclude that 'He mean't such and such'

3/ Had we been living at the time these words were penned..and obtained a copy of the book...I'm sure that the significance of that one small phrase would have totally escaped the reader...

So.. "Allahs curse on the Jews and Christians" needs examination of both the literal meaning..and the subsequent behavioral interpretation of the author and his companions.

It is then entirely.. no.. ABSOLUTELY legitimate for people who have the privilege of historic_hindsight, to make firm conclusions as to the meaning of such things.

Is there any other way?

*The US and the Western world must clearly understand the reasons why a small but dangerous minority of Muslims have embraced extremist idelaogies and violent tactics*

Foxy, I think that is quite well understood. Two things really
came together. Out of the Egyptian Brotherhood, came a guy called
Sayd Qutb (or similar spelling), whose ideology became huge, with
writings like "Milestones". His interpretations of Islam is pretty
much what drives the extreme side. Milestones is on the net, it
makes for interesting reading.

Next you had the situation in Saudi Arabia. When Saudi Arabia was
formed, deals were done. The Sauds got to run the oil wells and
money. In exchange for their support, the Wahabs got to decide
about religion. Wahabi Islam is far more extreme then your average
Sunnis or Shias.

With the huge wealth that flowed into Saudi Arabia, The Wahabs were
given huge amounts of money to promote Islam, build mosques around
the world etc, which is what has happened. Its Wahabi Islam that they
are promoting with those petrodollars. Many of those Wahabis have gone a step further,
following Qutb's interpretations of Islam, which is about the
violent overthrow of the West etc

Fractelle and CJ – I’m with you concerning the sheer unprovoked viciousness displayed by these extremist Christians. BD earns every epithet he receives given the amount of patronising B/S he regularly dishes out to people who have simply posted their opinion without malice or attempt to troll.

BD you owe many people here an apology for your lack of courtesy and grace, I know that your arrogance will prevent you from doing so. I really wish that there was a Christ, because you would find then that your behaviour has been amongst the most unchristian of the many religious who post here.

Fractelle is right we DO have as much to fear from the likes of BD as we do from Muslim extremists, if that is the level integrity that a belief in religion creates.

R0bert, said
Our resident anti-Muslim brigade has done much but Muslim leaders have also played a big role by not being public in their condemnation of the activities of a minority doing real harm.

Foxy replied
Dear Robert,

I fully agree with you. I can't understand why the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils (AFIC) which has its headquarters in
Sydney is not more vocal. AFIC represents the Muslims of Australia at the national and international level. They have offices in each state.
But we don't hear much from them. And we should.

They would have more sympathy and understanding from the general public, - if they made it clear that they did not condone violence.
It would certainly help distill the image that is being presented in the media.

Pale comments
glad that’s sorted
Stuck my neck out to attempt to answer. In hindsight I need not have felt obligated.
Still, I feel better now with absolutely no doubt as to what is important and what isn’t.
Other than saying there are ‘many concerned (some have spoken out publicly) including and Dr Ameer Ali and other Muslims I won’t try to go there.

Some Muslim leaders are concerned AFIC hasn’t done enough to encourage their own to denounce the activities of difficult Muslims.
By seeking ways to bridge the differences and only by doing that together with main stream Aussies and Muslim people united we will succeed.
Otherwise it may be lost by misunderstanding it as another jig at Muslims and things are far too serious to allow that to happen.

Yabby`s,
Comments are telling it like it is so if you use your imagination and consider how Australia fits in to the bigger picture you will understand we can’t afford to get it wrong here.

It is also important to understand their religion is linked to business and the word Halal involves just about everything they eat buy or use.
That said Australia IMOP must have a national accreditation. It’s imperative we know who we are supporting with funds doing trade or commercial business

Dave here
When are people going to learn to all religions there are extremes Christian,Islam & Jewish trouble is they all profess the laws of Abraham & the line of David so where do they get all the diversity.What is the difference between a Nuns headdress & a Moslem Ladies headdress with a Nun it is a habet & I can remember when head scarves were fashion get real all the only time people get into trouble is when they think they are human & keep eating of the tree of knowledge My father said never get involved in an argument on religion it is one you can never win & the Christians say 10,000 years of man which contadicts my Indigenous beliefs.
May your Lord shine on you your family from DAVID.

Here are some letters and words from the Muslim Leaders AFIC for anybody interested.

The first one of course is to our delight despite MOUs we will always have different opinion especially on Animal Welfare.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Plan-to-push-for-halal-standard-rejected/2007/10/08/1191695801343.html

The others are whats going out to their People , Letters to Kevin Rudd Etc.

So If you want to know what Muslims are reading and what AFIC is saying to their flock you have a copy of some below
I will post more from time to time FYI

http://www.afic.com.au/Muslims%20Australia/Circular%20to%20Muslim%20Community%20regarding%20ban%20on%20Hijab%2015%20Oct%2007.pdf

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/alp-hits-out-over-attitudes-to-muslims/2007/10/04/1191091281223.html

http://www.afic.com.au/2007Images/Final%20Booklet-1.pdf

http://www.afic.com.au/Muslims%20Australia/AFIC%20Stance%20on%20ALP.pdf

ASymeonakis
It would seem to me we already organisations speaking out for migrants and Muslims.
Er, That idea from down South of starting a New Muslim party was axed by the last Government.( Just between u amd me)

That was around the 'same time 'the Government stopped ASTIC from handling the funds for Aboriginal affairs.( Must of been having a bad hair day)

Umm, Apparently there seemed some concern about Aboriginals with no education or abilty to read or write signing up as Muslims.

When you were involved in taking the ATSIC concern to UN did anybody happen to mention the further concern regarding funding meant for Aboriginal people possibly ending up going to fund some Muslim,er, programes?

No? Well you will have to invite me along next time you pop off to the UN. Oh dear but I forgot your too shy and private a person to give out your contact details -arnt you?

I do hope you overcome some of your problems and may I suggested the aboriginal people come before even unhappy Greeks- Although I have only ever met one and 'thats you.'
But How do I really know your not telling porkies?
Now you wouldnt tell fibs would you ASymeonakis

Johnny Rotten,

“ Fractelle is right we DO have as much to fear from the likes of BD as we do from Muslim extremists.”

If you really believe this you are a nut case. Your comparison of BD with Muslim extremists is the most insulting thing I’ve seen on OLO –along with the comments from the original idiot, of course.

I am a non-believer myself, but I have always respected David’s sincere beliefs and the way he practises them in his life.

You have chosen the right pseudonym, Mr. Rotten.

LEIGH.. ! ur stealing my lines mate :)

Johnny..

You confuse ARROGANCE and 'CONFIDENCE'.

Please stop whining like a little kid. Robust argument is just that.. ROBUST.. let ur passions loose.. this is a forum for goodness sake.

I don't mind being called a heap of names.. being berated and rebuked... and if people contrast me with Christ.. I rejoice all the more. At least they are using the correct standard.

Take it from me...or take it from Leigh and Yabby... its the same message. The problem is not 'muslims' it is ISLAM.

I've just had a conversation with a Muslim who works at Ford.. rang him to get info about something. His number is on a web site for what I thought I was trying to locate. He was a gracious and decent sounding bloke.. so..I tried out Surah 9:30 with him.. "Mate.. what do you make of the bit about 'Allah destroy' the Christians and the Jews?"

He came back and (predictably) avoided the actual question, but after beating around the bush for a bit, mentioned that "associating partners with Allah in Islam is the worst possible thing you can do"

He mentioned "context.. understanding that verse in the light of the whole of the Quran etc" all of which I agreed with, and already recognize, but none of that changes the verse or its meaning..which he totally confirmed. "Christians and Jews are cursed by Allah"

Now.. Johnny, you might not be able to relate to such statements, unless of course I show you how 'polytheist/atheist infidels' which presumably you are (correct me if I'm wrong) are under more serious judgement and cursing than even we Christians or the Jews.

Now.. as I mentioned in the post about 'INTERPRETING DOCUMENTS' above..

I singled out ONE sentence "Dispose of the Jews and their work"

Now..with the hindsight of history, we know that resulted in over 6.000.000 human beings getting gassed and cremated.

So..forgive me if I'm rather enthusiastic about opposing and raising awareness about those who claim I am under Allah's curse.

"He came back and (predictably) avoided the actual question, but after beating around the bush for a bit,"

Sounds a lot like the reaction we get from Boazy when questioned about aspects of the old testament.

Also Boazy for all his concerns about Allah not liking jews and christains does not seem very troubled by the character of his god who if fundie christians are to be believed plans to burn most of us in hell for eternity, athiests, agnostics, muslims, buddists, primitive tribespeople etc.

If it's about the character of your god then Allah not liking jews and christains is no worse than Jehovah/Christ's plans for everybody else. Both ideas of god are evil and deserving of contempt when taken too literally.

R0bert

BD

You wouldn’t recognise robust debate if it shoved its fist up your jacksie, totally self-obsessed, you spend most of your posts:

Deriding the names of people with whom you disagree

and

Cherry picking the bible to suit whatever idea has crawled into your head at the time.

As for actually presenting an original relevant thought that actually applies to whichever topic you have selected for your evangelizing – well I guess that hell will freeze over before that happens.

As for drawing parallels between your extremist Christianity and Islam; yours truly, CJ, Fractelle and many others are quite accurate – you wish to impose your version of religion on everyone else and so do the extreme factions of Islam.

Your only saving grace is that you do not (apparently) use violence. Apart from that, your dogma is every bit as stultifying as the worst of Islam.

Your derision of others puts me in mind of a 7 year old bully and not the man of many years as I understand you to be.

I know I have just completely wasted my valuable time and this post, but just for once I would like to see you actually engage in discussion with people who hold a different opinion from you instead of deriding them.

Surely your god would prefer that you treat people with respect? Don’t you claim that your god is one of love? Well live the life you claim you have.

Yabby said
The Wahabs were
given huge amounts of money to promote Islam, build mosques around
the world etc, which is what has happened. Its Wahabi Islam that they
are promoting with those petrodollars. Many of those Wahabis have gone a step further,
following Qutb's interpretations of Islam, which is about the
violent overthrow of the West etc

pale commented

Yabby`s,
Comments are telling it like it is so if you use your imagination and consider how Australia fits in to the bigger picture ....
It is also important to understand their religion is linked to business and the word Halal involves just about everything they eat buy or use.
That said Australia IMOP must have a national accreditation.

"It’s imperative we know who we are supporting with funds doing trade or commercial business">


http://sunday.ninemsn.com.au/sunday/cover_stories/article_1239.asp

http://sunday.ninemsn.com.au/sunday/cover_stories/transcript_1239.asp

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22911335-2862,00.html

Lateline - 12/07/2005: Sheikh criticised for terrorism commentsBut after his statements last night there's been a muted response from Islamic moderates in Australia. ALY WALEED, ISLAMIC COUNCIL OF VICTORIA: It's a view ...
www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2005/s1412881.htm - 11k - Cached - Similar pages

The Spirit of Things - 31 October 2004 - SufismRecently relocated to the University of Victoria in New Zealand, he was the guest speaker .... Rachael Kohn: Wahabi Islam is associated with Saudi Arabia. ...
www.abc.net.au/rn/spiritofthings/stories/2004/1228039.htm - 45k - Cached - Similar pages
More results from www.abc.net.au »

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pale.

Why do you bother. As far as I know and I think I am correct pale are the only people outside the muslim tight nit community to work with the Muslim Leaders know them and have at least some idea of what type of people they are.

Foxy Opens a thread about muslims In australia and sure I agree that there isnt a law to make people respond but you would think they might at least be interested to learn considering especially you David Muslims are your topic.

I just wanted to say thanks for sticking up for the aboriginal people and pale dont bother because these people seem to not want to get the information after opening the darn thread.

Save yourself the effort is my advise and use your time in front of teli.

Foxy David boaz- I think its sad you dont want to learn.
Especially you David.
Even I know that they key to danger in this country is through the sale of Halal Food and its massive funding control

Dear Taryn
Do not concern yourself too much for this. We post on OLO to made make information available to the public that they otherwise would not have availability to.
If Foxy has lost interest in Muslims In Australia thread then there isnt much anybody else can do about it. Sometimes people get busy and caught up elsewhere and she isnt well either but I appreciate your frustration.

I agree with you more so that David is the one missing out on this understanding of what makes the Muslim people tick because it would serve him well when making claims that they were fuly informed statements.
It is very clear to me despite David meaning well he has not the knowledge of the inta working of the Muslim Soceity to be able to argue his points as successfuly as he may have otherwise had he stopped to hear from the people who have been working very closely to AFIC in the last six years.

Yes we have had our tifs. No we have not worked out every little answer but we have united gone futher than anybody else including the Government to come up with agreeable solutions which dont only involve animal welfare

We certainly knowabout Muslimsin Australia and yes its a pity David doesnt want to hear when every second word from him is Muslim

However Taryn It isnt something you should sit up until the we hours worrying about.

Thank You Fo Your comment and its noted

Dear Taryn and PALE&IF,

I'm sorry that I haven't been back to this thread for a while.
I've been in and out of hospital this week - for a series of more tests. They don't take long - but I tire easily.
Anyway, I really don't have much more that I can say on the subject of Muslims.
I've said about all I can.

I'm definitely with you on the subject of stunning the animals. I
think it would dreadful to have them suffer a cruel death - when our laws are quite clear on that. I've got some hope that the new government will pay attention to our pleas.

I'm grateful to you both for all your information.

I've done all I can to help the animals - I've sent emails to the PM,
and I'll continue to help as much as I can in the future.

I admire the work that you're doing.

Both of you - take care.

All The Best.

Dear Foxy
I am sorry. I didnt know you were unwell. I feel awful but my comment applies to all the others who go on about Muslims KNOWING our President of pale has exclisive MOUs with them and has worked with them for years. Several leaders have stayed at her property over the years and I know that because I helped arrange Halal food.
Its really fasinating if people take the time to listen and understand. Not that I understand all the business side of things but working together is a step in the right direction despite arguments from time to time that are sure to spring up.
Those Muslim leaders tend however to think they can just use people is what I also think. I dont know HOW she keeps it all together. How she can sit back and be so quite.
I would be SCREAMING by now. If only people knew.

Being Aboriginal I found their work with Muslim Leaders and Aboriginal Elders just so informative and its really angers me to see the obtuse attitude of some of these people.
Thats a big word for me but I am learning. smile.
I do hope you are feeling much better soon.
I know you are one of pale favouite posters so perhaps I should have kept my mouth shut but thats me big mouth boots and all I tend to dive in.
I have probably said too much. I usually do.Thats just another one of my many faults.
Again Sorry Foxy.

Dear Taryn,

You're one of my favourite people too. So don't worry. For me its an ongoing battle with my cancer - but I'm doing better than a lot of the people I see in hospital (I'm still here - and that's something).

Anyway, I enjoy the discussions of this Forum - it takes my mind off things. Sometimes things get out of hand - then I either have a good cry - or just tune out for a while.

It's been a real learning process - I can tell you.

You keep on doing what you're doing - you guys are great!

Take care.

All The Best.