Contrary to Mr McGauran's reassurances, that Australia's MOUs with the Middle East ensures the humane treatment of our animals prior to and during slaughter, the portrayal on last night's ABC 7.30 Report revealed that the extreme cruelty perpetrated by barbarians in the Middle East is flourishing. The MOUs obviously have had the impact of a soggy piece of lettuce.

The gut wrenching, ABC report showed footage of hog-tied animals, shoved in car boots. Others crammed into trucks, exhausted and distressed. Live animals being dragged backwards by one leg to have their throats cut. The ABC advised that the abominable treatment of a tethered bull was too heinous to show on the programme.

It is obvious that the torture of our animals in the ME, perpetrated by sadists who detest animals, is endemic, McGauran defended the actions by protesting that the live animal industry is worth one billion dollars.

However, the following is an excerpt from his very own department:

"Australia has developed a significant trade in meat to Muslim markets in the Middle East and Asia. In 2005 the total value of processed meat exports was over $5.9 billion (compared to around $700 million for live exports), of which around $310 million involved exports to the major Muslim markets. This includes approximately $203 million to the Middle East." April 2007

It is obvious that the processed meat exports are more economically profitable than the live exports. Are we to continue our silence, thereby being judged for our endorsement of the cruelty to our animals in other countries, or is the political corpse of the mawkish McGauran imminent?

"It is obvious that the processed meat exports are more economically profitable than the live exports."

You are once again writing uninformed nonsense Dickie. Right now
a sheep sold locally for processing, is worth around 15-20$.
The same sheep on a boat, is worth 60$. You as a farmer hater,
clearly don't care about farmers incomes, but they do.

I could take a video camera and go around Australia, and show
sheep hogtied in the boots of cars, their throats slit etc.
The thing is, what was not shown, was the many animals slaughtered
in the Middle East, that are treated ok.

Millions of animals are slaughtered in the Middle East every year,
with or without Australian animals. Australian farmers are the
only ones bankrolling training, equipment and better handling
methods.

If Animals Australia really cared, they would join us in bringing
about change in the ME. There are many cheap and simple things
that could be done. But nope, they do nothing in the Middle
East, just rattling the tin here, as they sit by their computers.

But then I have yet to see vegetarians sincere about bringing
about change, they would rather shut us all down and stop all
meat eating. It ain't gonna happen!

Yabby

You would be well advised to take your argument to Minister McGauran. It was from his department that I derived those figures.

Your advice that animals are also treated badly in Australia simply confirms my belief that Australia is a nation of shame.

"I could take a video camera and go around Australia, and show
sheep hogtied in the boots of cars, their throats slit etc."

So why don't you report these atrocities to the authorities, Yabby?

I trust all fairminded people will continue to voice their objections to the maggots in power who operate solely to make a profit from the misery and despair of other species.

Dickie, I don't need to go to Mr McGauran. I only need to open
a farming paper and read the market quotes, or ring up a buyer
and ask the present price. The local meat industry has clearly
stated that they are not a charity, they will buy livestock
as cheaply as possible. So the live trade is a saviour for
farmers.

Hogtieing a sheep is standard practise on every farm. They even
make and sell sheep cuffs, which are easier to use. Thats how
farmers move individual sheep around farms, alot of the time.
You think its cruel, I don't. Its not a poodle.

Tying a sheeps legs and slaughtering it for meat, is as old as
Australian farming. Shearing teams often take one home for
meat, in the boot.

The thing is, how they showed sheep slaughtered on that video
is a lose lose all round. The sheep are stressed, so the meat
is tough, its labour inefficient, and a hard way to do things.
Some simple panels, a race and kill box, worth a few bucks
would solve all that, better for the sheep too.

At the end of the day Arabs are sick of Europeans wanting to
boss them around, but there is also a requirment that they
be kind to animals, according to the Koran. Sometimes how
you say things matters more then what you say. There is a major
opportunity to bring about change in Middle East slaughter
practises, with a bit of money and time invested. Slaughtering
animals will happen with or without Australian livestock.

Yabby: "Right now a sheep sold locally for processing, is worth around 15-20$. The same sheep on a boat, is worth 60$."

If that's true, then Yabhy makes a very salient point. It may be the case in WA, but where I live in southern Qld the local sheep farmers don't have that choice, and in any case we have a local mutton and goat abattoir that produces almost exclusively for export - much of it Halal.

Also, the abattoir is not only the principal employer for our little town, but also one of the major employers in the district. As a small businessman, I've noticed the ebb and flow of money and people in the town for a few years now - what with local fortunes almost completelely tied to the weather and international markets and currencies - and I think that ultimately a live export trade from this part of the country would be counterproductive overall, in economic, social and probably animal welfare grounds.

However, WA is different, certainly in terms of sheep. Indeed, my first real experience of agriculture was on a wheat, sheep and oats farm in SW WA in the 1970s. Even then the local abbatoir was employing Muslim Malays from Christmas Island - one benefit of which was that there was a brilliant Malay restaurant in Katanning in 1975... but I digress - the point is that there was a labour shortage generally then, as there is now, and abbatoirs by nature are the last places where most people would choose to work if they have a choice.

On topic, the economics are probably pretty much as Yabby puts them. I think that it's pretty awful in general how animals are treated at abbatoirs anywhere, but killing animals is never very pleasant. From WA, in terms of transport costs and relative labour shortages, it undoubtedly does pay more to export live sheep. I agree that we should do everything we can to ensure that they are handled humanely, but ultimately the market will rule. The best we can do is try and influence it.

Yabby,

Your moral and pretentious ineptitude knows no bounds.

Australia has been exporting live animals to the Middle East since 1960.

Your masters have, no doubt, been marauding the ME for some 47 years and we have yet to hear one protest from these money makers of misery.

"Love the animals: God has given them the rudiments of thought and joy untroubled. Do not trouble them, do not harass them, don't deprive them of their happiness, do not work against God's intent. Man, do not pride yourself on superiority to the animals; they are without sin, and you, with your greed, defile the earth by your actions, and alas, only you leave the traces of your foulness."

-Feodor Dostoyevsky (1821–1881)

"do not work against God's intent"

Oops Dickie, I didn't know you were a god fan. You and BD would
make a great couple :)

Animals and people can cohabit quite well. But at the end of the
day, we are all recycled. The worms will get you in the end Dickie,
so you are no exception.

Your average sheep leads a free range life for most of its life.
No factory farming like pigs or chickens. Plenty of green grass,
plenty of sunshine, a bit of sex thrown in. They are fed through
droughts, kept free of predators, treated for worms.

At the end of their lives they go on a boat, basically a floating
feedlot, and gain weight along the way. They have food, water,
shelter, all the basic requirements.

The end of their lives is in fact far quicker then most humans.
With those, we make them suffer until their last breath,human suffering
is noble, according to our religious folks.

So when you are on your deathbed and they refuse to let you die
but make you suffer Dickie, it might hit you that humans get a
far worse deal then your average sheep.

Dickie Yabby CJ Morgan
Firstly Dickie Thank You for opening this important thread to give people the oportunity to comment on the 7.30 report exposing the same lies of Peter McGauran and both sides of Government.
Thank You also to Lyn White of Animals Australia.

We must never forget Labour States are up to their arm pits in donations from all sorts of industries as well as the Howard Government.
HENSE The Silence again from Kevin Rudd and Labour.

Secondly it wouldnt matter if they were paying a MILLION dollars a sheep nothing makes this treatment ok.

It might also interest CJ Morgan who posted a sensible posts that WE pay the difference between the extra twenty dollars in way of taxes and subs that are cleverly directed to the miserable low lifes involved in this barbaric trade.

I see our old Yabbs is one about his worms again. [ fasinating]
I will say Dickie Yabby has made better contributions to posts in the past encouraging the Government to allow skillied labour to work in plants throughout Australia.

This might interest CJ Morgan to know that ONLY Abattoir workers are being kept out of the country.
Now isnt that interesting!

The Governments- Please note I said GovernemtS! are so scared to loose the support of the seriously rich companies involved in this evil trade that carts our materials off in their most vailable form.

Dickie I am just wondering if we can look at bring charges against the Govener General?
We were advised in writing by the Queens office some time ago both he along with Mark Vaile and Downer were reasonsible.
Interesting thought.
Perhaps we could drop in and arrest the bastards as they `sip their high tea`.
Or better still pop them onboard one of the death ships with ALL of the Australian Government and live Animal Export agents.

Could make interesting headlines.
Charges to be laid against the Australian Govener General after Her Majesty the Queens advise.

http://www.livexports.com/queen.html

Yabby,
Your compassion for animals is astounding!

Im a big meat eater but I dont see why in this day and age that an animal must suffer at the hands of terrorist before being consumed in a bloody kebab.

I watched the 7.30 report last night and was bloody horrified, that sheep wasnt hog tied its legs were broken and it was in an extreme amount of pain.

Stuff them, if they want our superior meat products they can buy them the way we cut them up with our own trained labour, if not perhaps they can get pigs for thier kebabs.

Another defender of the undefendable, we must have standards or it will lower us to thier level.

If the UN can tell us to take certain people into our country then surely they can direct how animals will be treated from where we have taken those people.

More Hypocracey

"Your compassion for animals is astounding!"

Thank you Scotty, for I do care a great deal about animals,
thats why I want change. Fact is that the only ones doing
anything to change things in the Middle East, are Australian
farmers.

So the reality is that farmers are getting results, the rest
make alot of noise, alot of claims, collect alot of money
from donations, but I have yet to see them achieve anything
in the Middle East, unlike Aussie farmers. Actions speak
louder then words!

Yup there are still lots of things to resolve in the Middle
East, but that does not mean that they are impossible to
solve. I could most likely go down the street where you
live and video some guy beating his wife and put it on tv.
I could then yell "ban marriage for it leads to wife beating"

Clearly my argument would not stand up, for many marriages
function ok. Best to try and assist those marriages where there
are problems. The same principle applies in the meat industry,
but the fanatical end, usually veggies, just don't get it,
so they achieve nothing.

So thats the reality. Farmers are getting results, the rest
arn't. I'd rather back those who are bringing about change,
then those who protest so much that they achieve nothing.

SCOTTY
Dont you believe that garbage.
Fact is this problem wasnt created by the farmers originally. They back then were guilty of nothing other than not asking the right questions.
They knew and understood very little about the dirty world of trade deals.
Farmers now do know and they are several that wont send their animals live.
They prefer to make sure they are slaughtered here.
The ones that dont care are many and more the new ages creeps who are anything BUT farmers.
Yabby reads the Government web pages that are full of utter crap.
Another thing is farmers are not doing anything.
They get subs which are paid forby OUR tax dollars and so does this bARBARIC Industry.
We are talking Packers Murdocks deals lerks trade deals and subs .
There is no reason they cant slaughter here and its about time the FARMERS ALL stood up not just some!
Muslims have no problem with Halal Slaughter plants HERE and it SHOULD BE A LAW ALONG WITH PRE STUNNING.

"Despite claims of being an animal welfare organisation Animals Australia has not invested one dollar or provided one person to improve animal welfare in the Middle East."

Thats a quote from:

http://www.liveexportcare.com/latest_news/reportLivestockExports111007.html

I remind you that MLA is essentially farmer owned. Thousands of
farmers vote how their levy monies, which cover most of the MLA
budget, are spent. That includes the above website.

Compare the results of Aussie farmers in the Middle East with
any other group. Farmers are getting results with all the levies
they pay, the rest of you talk alot and do nothing to help animals
in the Middle East

Pale

Thanks for your input. And how right you have been in the past. I have since researched data on government departments to find that your previous figures all add up.

Scotty, you will learn that our resident Nazi, who at all times, infiltrates animal welfare posts, as a front for the scumsucking live animal exporters, will be furiously determined to have the last say. Somehow, he believes that posters are sufficiently obtuse to only read his posts which purposely go off topic.

Of course, last year, Yabby's home state, Western Australia, exported 81% of all live sheep exports and ninety nine percent of all sheep went to the Middle East.

One government consultant has predicted an increase of 34% for beef exports by 2020. Already grazing animals have stuffed our biodiversity.

Yabby and his cohorts, ruling by terror and torture, have a diabolical view of profit making. He is sufficiently arrogant to take credit for "improvements" in animal welfare in the Middle East.

Claiming the credit is unbelievable and a sick attempt to vilify and silence those who have lobbied and worked tirelessly for the humane treatment of animals. Unlike the ethics-free, emotion-free export industry, the animal welfare groups refuse to sneak in through back doors.

It matters not to Yabby or his dealers in death , that already 2 million livestock have died on sea journeys.

The following Islamic Eid-al-Adha "joyful" festivities reveals how Yabby, his partners in torture and the sick bastards who strut our corridors of parliament, gleefully operate their black magic for a fast buck.

Warning: Sensitive viewers are advised not to access the following URL.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:sz0e41mclaMJ:sweetness-light.com/archive/the-eid-festival-around-the-world-graphic-photos+animal+torture+muslim+festivals&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_en

Ah Dickie, our well meaning, farming hating dreamer, who thinks much
like AA, that we should all become veggies. Dream on.

I remind Dickie that Saudi Arabia is the world's largest importer
of live animals, around 6-10 million, rising with increasing oil
revenues. Australia supplies a small % of that, the trade exists
with or without Australia.

What has Dickie done to help improve animal welfare in the Middle
East? Nothing that we are aware of, just talk on OLO.

Meantime farmers are spending millions of their levy dollars to
change things in the Middle East. Actions speak louder then
words, yet once again!

Feelgood achieves nothing but how you feel Dickie, actions and $
get results. Clearly you have alot to learn from Australian
farmers, despite your hatred of them.

Ive been around meat works since I was a kid and my father was the export manager for Smorgans for over 20 years, these were hard men but humane.

I think youd have to have a real close look at yourself as a farmer or an exporter when you close the last gate behind the last beast onto the ship knowing full well what treatment that animal may recieve.

Everyones gotta make a quid but at some point you've gotta look at yourself in the mirror and say enough.

All this exporting business is doing is sending Aussie jobs to Arabs.
And we wonder why abbatoir's keep closing down, well there you go!

Mr Truss said the new regulatory arrangements would be funded by industry with the usual 40 per cent Govt contribution to AQIS fees charged on export industries.

The Australian Government will meet the $2 million estimated start-up costs for the new industry regulatory system.

"A new compulsory research and development levy will also be introduced in consultation with industry. The Government will match the R&D component of the levy dollar for dollar.

This arrangement will be in addition to the levy exporters are paying to recoup the cost of resolving last year's MV Cormo Express incident " he said.

Following the broad ranging investigation in 2003 into Australia’s livestock export industry chaired by Dr John Keniry, the Government announced initiatives to improve animal welfare conditions in the livestock export trade.

This legislation is an important step by the Government to overhaul the livestock export trade. These new arrangements acknowledge that community concerns about animal welfare are an important consideration if the livestock export trade is to be sustainable.

Part of this response is a $4 million investment to help improve animal welfare practices in importing countries.

The Australian Government will provide the $4 million over four years in addition to industry funds to help improve animal welfare practices in importing countries and to upgrade handling procedures.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:97AInPnvGdsJ:www.maff.gov.au/releases/04/04076wt.html+government+levies+lives+animal+exports&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=au&lr=lang_en

The levies are paid for the following:

1. Quarantine and inspection....Govt. contribution 40% plus $2 million start up fee

2. Research and Development.....Govt. contribution 50%

3. Reimbursement to Govt. for the ignominious Corma disaster (withdrawn June 2007)

"Meantime farmers are spending millions of their levy dollars to
change things in the Middle East. Actions speak louder then
words, yet once again!" says the all-knowledgeable Yabby.

"Millions of dollars?" Please support your claim above with dates and figures, Yabby!

Warning: Sensitive viewers are advised not to access the following URL.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:sz0e41mclaMJ:sweetness-light.com/archive/the-eid-festival-around-the-world-graphic-photos+animal+torture+muslim+festivals&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_en

Dickie Scotty Yabby

Dickie thanks for your hard efforts and please as usual dont let this thread go because old Yabbs and the others are going to hear it the way it really is.

Yabby I am sure you believe some of the lies and spins put out by the Government and the industry.

As a matter of fact I think many farmers do.[ Even some of the Mininsters]

Its long been a joke amoung the industry that the tell Ministers porkies.

Throughout this thread I am going to give you and others a insight as to how it REALLY IS.

This is the real stuff and control that goes on behind the scenes.

Before I do let me just say that I did notice that old Yabbs along with his worm lectures has in the past pushed for more abattoirs to be opended in WA.

So Yabby both yourself and Dickie in different ways `have contributed` to trying to solve the problem.

Before I post EVIDENCE knowing might full well I will probably end up in court with the Government I would like to explain something to SCOTTY .

SCOTTY as this is such an upsetiing subject we do TRY to regain some humour.
In the past Old Yabbs has not complained of our thread called.
Yabbys Adventures.
It is The story of a litle sheep called Yabby from farm gate to his trip to ME.
Perhaps when I post Yabbys adventures part two you may actually enjoy joining in to help plan the final trip for poor old Yabbs.

In the next few posts I will post copies of emails from heads of MLA in ME and others.

I will explain how farmers are being controlled lied to along with the rest of the public.

Where the money comes from- How it works. Derpartment of trades interfearance with Austrade to make sure just like in WA and elsewhere we DONT reopen abattoirs in Australia to protect the live trade.

I didnt form HKM with Muslim Leaders of Australia for nothing.

http://www.halakindmeats.com/

Participants in this thread may be interested to know that the live exports trade is the subject of this week's 'Background Briefing' on Radio National. It's about to start (9am), but I believe that it's repeated later in the week and BB transcripts are generally available on the ABC website.

Dickie, you are free to contact MLA and obtain copies of their
annual reports. Farmers pay 10s of millions of $ a year in levies.
That makes up most of MLA's budget. The R&D funding part is matched
$ for $. Thats spent on all sorts of research projects.

The annual reports also mention how much each year is spent
on improving animal welfare in the Middle East, its been running
for quite a few years now and amounts to many millions of $.

Farmers are the only ones running such a project. The rest of
you just talk.

http://bulletin.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=262266

http://www.mla.com.au/HeaderAndFooter/AboutMLA/Howwearefunded/default.htm

Where are the dates and figures I requested?

I note , as is typical, you have ignored and failed to comment on the barbaric Muslim slaughter games they play during their festive occasions, using our livestock as cannon fodder.

Wash your mouth out, Yabby.

I trust you sleep well at night!

"Scott Hansen from Meat and Livestock Australia says the film footage contains some of the worst cases of animal cruelty he's ever seen."
http://www.abc.com.au/news/justin/?page=7

It would be a fair guess that any brass going to the ME

in the form of of improving animal welfare would end up greasing

some local officials palm by way of bribes.

Not the most honourable folks to start off with otherwise they'd not be cruel to these animals to start with.

It would be safe to say that ingrained cruelty to man, woman and animals is not a condition that is going to be fixed by throwing money at the problem.

Token gestures to justify whats essentially animal cruelty cant stop the facts of how they treat and kill meat animals.

PALE, Why is it the moonbat leftists are not in on this like they are on questionable human topics?

Scotty

The left would no doubt remain silent particularly in WA which is the largest exporters of live animals.

However, I no longer see any difference from a rock ape on the left or one on the right.

Having said that, I advise my closest relative is a Liberal politician therefore I speak without political bias though I would prefer to be able to issue glowing reports on the Libs. Alas I have nothing glowing to report!

Both parties on this issue are dark blots of shame on our nation!

Scotty, your ignorance and arrogance seem to have no limits. Before making
any more stupid comments, perhaps you should inform yourself about the
topic a little. Where are all these Australian meatworkers? Why don’t they
apply for the many jobs on offer in West Australia?

Calling people from the Middle East terrorists, shows your racism. I remind
you that right here in Australia there is plenty of animal cruelty going on,
just go and have a look around some hobby farms. So your high and
mighty attitude is flawed.

If the live trade was shut tomorrow, it would bankrupt farmers and animals
would need to be shot and buried in pits. That’s the reality. Nobody has
offered an alternate, viable solution.

What is clear is that many objecting to the live trade are in fact veggies with
their own agenda of opposing the eating of meat and of farmers farming
livestock in the first place. AA will tell you about the evils of eating meat,
so will Dickie, so will Peta. If farmers go bankrupt, they don’t seem to care, for their
contempt of farmers is fairly obvious.

Your arrogance continues in calling what farmers are doing in the Middle East,
a token gesture. Fact is one has to start somewhere and farmers are the only ones
doing something! All these veggie groups are free to join in and help grow what
farmers have started. There is no reason the projects could not be tripled in size.

So far they have showed no interest, preferring to rattle the donation tins as they
sit by their computers and condemn farmers.

I have made simple, cheap, cost effective suggestions on OLO about what could
be done in the Middle East to bring about changes. No interest from the veggie
groups, it seems they would prefer to get rid of farmers, then help animals
in the Middle East. So where is all this compassion for animals?

Dickie, you are a big girl and as such free to email MLA for exact figures.

dickie, re torture link, isn't this further proof that it is not only Australian animals that go through ritualistic killings and that an education program will do more for ALL such animals than by simply ceasing Australian live exports. Shouldn't it be all animals we are concerned about, not just those lucky enough to be born here. The scrunity associated with Australian animals and Australians deployed there to improve standards, can only lead to better treatment for the animals. If only animal activists would lend a hand on the ground in those countries for real change.

Morgan
Thank you. It was decent of you to let others know.

Scotty - the Moon bats are all after the same deal- votes power - Plus it’s worse than that.
Because it’s been let go so long we need an open public Royal Commission- but brother half of the crew along with Ministers both state and fed would probably take extended leave. See-[be sure to turn your music on]
http://www.livexports.com/cowgun.html

"For now the best thing to do is give the Greens more Power in the Senate."'

I would be open to suggestions of a public open Royal Commission and invite overseas media.
Dickie might be interested to help us find a pink tent and we can travel state to state and hold it in parks. Why the hell not?

It seemed to scare the living life out of old Bill Heffernan a while back.
60 minutes and a few others ought to find it interesting.

We could start in each state by opening with the findings of three Senate Enquiries held years ago- All of which found live Animal exports should CEASE immediately.

We would require a few lawyers retired judges maybe etc. It can be done-
I am going to say a lot more about bribes later Scotty.

It starts from the top. Isnt that right Mr Vaile Downer just to mention a few. For now however I am going to posts a few steps we "must take" to turn it around.

Its is SO entrenched here we must work with Saudis and other countries direct.
That is something the Governments are "desperate to stop from happening."
I am also going to expose Farmers Federations and MLA Austrade just to mention a few.
Sorry Yabbs but your wonderful faith in MLA is about to take a dive.
Speaking of diving I do hope you will take your togs along on your nice little floating feed bay when he head off to ME.
They tell it it gets a bit warm out there.
Rojo
I see you think it’s smart to send our Raw Materials off before value adding

"If only animal activists would lend a hand on the ground in those countries for real change."

Rojo

"Lend (ing) a hand on the ground" has had no effect, will not have any effect and is strictly industry and government propaganda which is unable to supply any evidence of reduced cruelty to animals - can you, Rojo?

The industry, with all its taxpayer funding, is arrogant indeed when it ensures the public that they are going to tell the Arabs how to treat animals.

Cruelty to animals in Muslim culture is ingrained into their every day life and into their religious festivals. The foundation rock of any culture is not easily removed and certainly not by "unbelievers."

"Dickie, you are a big girl and as such free to email MLA for exact figures."

Yabby, the protocol on this forum is for posters to supply a reference on request, to support their claims - not the other way around. If they are unable to, they are usually regarded as rather dodgy and unreliable.

I reiterate the previous requests for references and your comments:

1. Purported welfare work performed in the ME by farmers - facts, dates and figures:

"Meantime farmers are spending millions of their levy dollars to
change things in the Middle East. Actions speak louder then
words, yet once again!"

2. Scott Hansen from Meat and Livestock Australia says the film footage contains some of the worst cases of animal cruelty he's ever seen."
http://www.abc.com.au/news/justin/?page=7

3. http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:sz0e41mclaMJ:sweetness-light.com/archive/the-eid-festival-around-the-world-graphic-photos+animal+torture+muslim+festivals&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_en

This footage is quite current. Where are your farmer warriors in the Muslim trading countries?

Dickie, I've provided you with a reference point. MLA. Their
claims, their expenditure is publicly accountable. Just claiming
its all "propaganda" is a cop out. Admit it, you are against
farming and meat eating. You'd rather see Australian farmers
shut down.

Clearly the staff who work in the Middle East think that they
are making a difference. They could make far more of a difference
with some help, something that you veggies refuse to give.

If you'd listened to the Radio National broadcast, it was made
quite clear that under Islam, cruelty to animals is not acceptable.
To highlight that to people and persuade them to pay attention to
their own religion, makes perfect sense! Farmers are just not
as defeatist as you veggies seem to be.

Go and watch some hobby farmer in Australia shooting a cow
with a .22, after it runs around paddocks with more and more
bullets in its head. Go and watch a mob of shearers slaughter
half a dozen sheep for meat in some shearing shed. It looks much
like your Middle East pics. So do I call Australia "savages"
because of that? Thats what you are doing to Middle Eastern people.

The Middle East like everywhere, has some sophisticated people and
some primitive ones. Dubai today is one of the top world class
cities, not bad for a bunch of "savages".

Scott Hansen is free to propose extra expenditure and staff for
animal welfare projects in the Middle East. Then we'd make a larger
difference. Animal welfare groups in Australia could add money
and staff to make a difference. But nope, they clearly don't care
enough about Middle Eastern animals

"So do I call Australia "savages" because of that? Thats what you are doing to Middle Eastern people."

Ah....good try Yabby. Blame someone else when it is you who send off defenceless animals to a hell on earth whilst you salivate over your lucrative trade!

"Meantime farmers are spending millions of their levy dollars to
change things in the Middle East. Actions speak louder then
words, yet once again!"

How much, Yabby.......how much?? Last chance, Yabby or you will be viewed as a fraud and a trickster!

http://www.liveexport-indefensible.com/investigations/photos.php

. http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:sz0e41mclaMJ:sweetness-light.com/archive/the-eid-festival-around-the-world-graphic-photos+animal+torture+muslim+festivals&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_en

Rojo
I note you ignored my question. Do you agree with sending our Australian Materials off in their most valuable form?.
Leaving Animal Welfare aside just for five minutes can you explain why you prefer our employment opportunity’s sold off through sneaky trade deals that goes well above farmers heads but not the foreign owned feed lots and industry that have taken over.
Do you understand the back bone of regional country towns and how that work?

Dickie before I post a few things that will interest you I would like to ask Yabby whom he has dealt with in MLA.?
Who have you done business with in MLA regarding either live exports or the red meat trade Yabby?
I would really like to know?
Name just one person you can say you have worked with?
What about Ross. Do you know who that is Yabby?
You are speaking about live Exports and MLA and others often.
I am just wondering if you can give the forum readers one example of anybody lets say in MLA you have worked with.
Yabby I have read many of your posts in the past and I conclude you have had some export expereince but you honestly think live exports operates the same way asother industries.

It doesnt - Its dirty as!
Which reminds me did anybody hear on the early news today ?
The AWB enquiry apparently can not continue to go for bigger fish claiing they are out of funding.
When I called Downers office nobody knew anything about it. Phillip Ruddocks were all in a meeting whos umbrella this comes under.
The AFP might accept some funding as you suggested from Animal groups Yabby.
Might surprise everybody what turns up considering AWB are live exporters.

Dickie, perhaps you salivate over your lucrative weekly pension check,
if you think that farmers salivate over paying their bills. I remind
you that sheep farming is one of the least profitable industries
in Australia, no wonder the Australian flock has virtually halved.

Most farmers in fact do it for the lifestyle, many have second jobs
to pay the bills. I remind you that right now a kg of sheep on the
local market, is worth about half the cost of a kg of fertiliser,
as everyone makes a quid but farmers, who are at the bottom of
the cost chain and take the scraps of what is offered.

Yup millions have been spent Dickie, over a number of years and
will continue to. Perhaps it will be increased, which would be
great news. No thanks to the veggie brigade who spend nothing
on Middle East animal welfare and cleary don't care about improving
animal welfare in the Middle East. Much easier to just rattle the
tin in Australia, as they sit by their computer screens. Sounds
like its a lucrative business to me!

For you I would certainly not bother getting the information,
as you are old enough to do it yourself and a farmer hater.
The reference has been given, get off your own butt if you really
want to know. Its public information, email MLA.

Pale, the most valuable form is in fact live sheep. Even you should
be able to figure out that 60$ in the farmers pocket will create
alot more spending in regional areas then 15-20$. Besides,
where are all these meatworkers who want jobs? Why don't they apply
for jobs on offer now?

As to my dealings with MLA, yes I have had dealings with MLA,
in various divisions. As to what was said and to whom, that is
private information, not for a public forum. Besides I had one bad
experience with you, so as you know I would not deal with Pale
either, or give you any kind of private information.

paleif, I didn't ignore your question, I just don't live here.

If I were a sheep producer, would I be clever to accept $20 instead of $60.

Value adding in Australia is a great idea, but so many of our manufacturing and processing industries have been taken off shore already, that it is unreasonable to expect meat could not follow suit.

All a processor in Australia has to do is offer $60 (sustainably) and the live export industry can become history. For a mere $100 million or so a year animal groups could easily assist by making up the difference in price for live sheep.

dickie, re lending a hand, yes it's too hard lets not try. At least we'll save the Aussie sheep. They're much more important than those african or asian ones. And stuff those camels too.

regards, [insert favorite animal liberation group name here]

"Make a lie big, make it simple, keep saying it and eventually they'll believe it." (Adolph Hitler)

Abject cruelty to animals in the Middle East continues whilst the Devil's Advocate for Livecorp and MLA fallaciously talks of industry welfare work in those countries but will not and cannot supply any official dates, regions of work, or figures. The Advocate's claim is therefore, false and invalid.

Regardless, the atrocities continue.

Rojo, It is not your place to instruct me on how best to utilise my endeavours towards animal welfare, however, perhaps you may consider that it is entirely rational for one to accept that charity first begins at home. For the present, I am in fact constantly lobbying Middle Eastern countries from an office chair. What is your contribution?

I regret that you have fallen for the Industry Advocate's argument about the difference in the domestic and export prices. What you fail to accept is the substantial net profits of this industry, a result of you and I propping them up with heavy subsidies.

Can you advise of any other industry which receives such generous subsidies and tax breaks?

This is the way of the apostles of tyranny - the "exclusive brethren." Meanness of spirit, self love and the contempt of other creatures which is impeding the social and moral progress of the West.

http://www.liveexport-indefensible.com/investigations/photos.php

. http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:sz0e41mclaMJ:sweetness-light.com/archive/the-eid-festival-around-the-world-graphic-photos+animal+torture+muslim+festivals&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_en

Adolph was quite correct Dickie, as we have seen on OLO. The anti
live sheep brigade simply repeat their mantras again and again,
many gullible people might be sucked in and donate.

For you, anyone who does not treat livestock like your pet poodle
seems to be defined as "cruel". Sorry, it ain't that simple. Clearly
you have no experience of even handling sheep. If one bowled
you over and broke your leg, you might learn something.

I on the other hand am in a unique position to be objective and look
at all sides of the arguments. Unlike you, I don't hate farmers,
I don't campaign against eating meat. I don't depend of live sheep
or even farming for my living. I have thirty years of experience
handling livestock, so have forgotten what you don't even yet know.
I also know how the prices received for livestock affects farm
budgets, people trying to send kids to school, trying to survive
in farming.

Fact is, live sheep ships are little more then floating feedlots.
Unless you advocate banning all feedlots, you have no good reason
to descriminate against ones that float.

Fact is, sheeps throats are slit in Australia every day. You think
its cruel. I would argue that its far less cruel that what we are
doing to people, torturing them to their last breath, in the name
of religion.

Making money out of death? When you die, the undertaker and flower
sellers will be licking their chops, salivating at your profitable
carcass.

Yabby's following post is of fortuitous timing.

"I also know how the prices received for livestock affects farm
budgets, people trying to send kids to school, trying to survive
in farming."

Poor things! Funny though, pastoralists in my region are extremely affluent!

Only late yesterday was I speaking to a pastoralist who expressed interest in buying my home as an investment.

The pastoralist, in conversation, advised they currently own properties in the region of South Perth and Cottesloe WA; a property in the best street in my city and other metropolitan property investments in trust for their children.

I am delighted to hear of success stories resulting from people's hard working endeavours.

It has been remiss of me over the years though not to enquire if the sheep, responsible for the good fortunes of this dynasty (who operate their property in one of Australia's most arid regions) are slaughtered here or overseas?

And so Lucifer's Advocate continues to fog this issue, playing on the heartstrings of those who are not familiar with the economics and duping those who do not reside near pastoral properties.

Only then would they bear witness to the thousands of sheep crammed to capacity in trucks, which must travel in extreme heat over eight hundred kilometres to wharves before these exhausted critters are deployed to our ships of shame and to a repetoire of torture.

Wink wink, Yabby. And who is fooling whom? I am the fourth generation to have lived in this pastoral area, so off you go now and peddle your propaganda elsewhere.

http://www.liveexport-indefensible.com/investigations/photos.php

. http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:sz0e41mclaMJ:sweetness-light.com/archive/the-eid-festival-around-the-world-graphic-photos+animal+torture+muslim+festivals&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_en

Well Dickie, firstly I remind you that alot of pastoralists nearly
went broke farming merinos and have converted to damaras or cattle.

Lots of pastoralists are in the middle of the booming mineral
areas and have made far more money from all that information,
playing the stock market, then farming ever made them.

Most sheep farmers are in fact in the SW. You are free to research
their average incomes and profits from sheep farming. Without
grain income, many would have shut their doors long ago.
Thats exactly why so many farmers have left the industry.

You obviously know so little about this industry, that you don't
even know where the sheep that surround you, are slaughtered!
Admit it Dickie, you don't have the foggiest about the sheep
industry, neither about sheep.

"Well Dickie, firstly I remind you that alot of pastoralists nearly
went broke farming merinos and have converted to damaras or cattle."

Not in my pastoral region, Yabby - they're still Merinos - and big profits.

"Lots of pastoralists are in the middle of the booming mineral
areas and have made far more money from all that information,
playing the stock market, then farming ever made them."

Ooooh....lucky them though didn't you say they were hard up?

Those not in the live animal export market generally don't risk their earnings playing big time on the speculative share market unless of course they can afford to lose. Where did these cash strapped live animal exporters get the moola to play these games? From us - the taxpayer?

More falsifications, Yabby?

You know Yabby, the more I assess you, the more I prefer dogs!

http://www.liveexport-indefensible.com/investigations/photos.php

. http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:sz0e41mclaMJ:sweetness-light.com/archive/the-eid-festival-around-the-world-graphic-photos+animal+torture+muslim+festivals&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_en

Dickie, given your clear lack of knowledge about sheep, most likely you
would not know the difference between a damara and a merino!

Let alone have the foggiest about station profitability, which I
remind you makes up a few% of the sheep population.

Have you for instance seen what happens when you half fill a truck
with sheep? They fall about all over the place. Thats why full
truckloads of sheep make perfect sense, but housewives don't know
that kind of thing I guess, no matter where they live.

Most smart farmers do in fact have off farm investments, they are
far more profitable then farming and often save the farm. Borrowing
for off farm investments makes perfect sense.

Those farmers going bust, are usually those who rely purely on
farming. These surveys are regularly published in the farming
press. Perhaps you should bother to inform yourself, rather then
look out the window and speculate.

Now, how many hundred pastoralists are there? How many thousands
of farmers? How many sheep in pastoral country? How many in the
ag regions? Looking out the window tells you nothing about
agriculture.

I have no problem with dogs, I certainly prefer mine to you
any day :)

"Have you for instance seen what happens when you half fill a truck
with sheep? They fall about all over the place. Thats why full
truckloads of sheep make perfect sense, but housewives don't know
that kind of thing I guess, no matter where they live."

Oh dearest Yabby. My humblest apologies for being so excessively obtuse.

And you know, had I applied logic, I would have learnt from recalling the history of the Nazis' strategy for their cattle cars to Auschwitz, transporting the "livestock" on their way to the Final Solution.

Of course the "Car Full" sign was necessary to prevent passengers from falling over and bruising their flesh - tsk tsk, silly me!

http://www.liveexport-indefensible.com/investigations/photos.php

. http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:sz0e41mclaMJ:sweetness-light.com/archive/the-eid-festival-around-the-world-graphic-photos+animal+torture+muslim+festivals&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_en

Well this is the real problem Dickie. Uninformed housewives like you,
who seem to want to rather bemother livestock, rather then accept
the realities of this world. That’s why we need informed people
to comment on the live trade, rather then hormonally challenged
extremists :)

Yes we do send them for slaughter. Yes people eat them, yes its part
of our history and part of their history. Why should putting sheep
on a truck for 8-10 hours be cruel? You should go and explore the
world a little. Plenty of trains out there, on long journey’s full of
people.

Fact is that on most farms, most sheep live free range, fairly natural
and happy lives. If some were not sold off, overpopulation would
soon lead to mass starvation and the slow death of most. Its not
a pretty sight, but then its nature, so its wonderful, according to you.

Right in your part of the world, wild dogs rip livestock to bits,
cause them much misery and terrible deaths, but that’s natural,
so clearly not an issue for you. Blind kangaroos, ravaged with
eye diseases, not an issue for you. But if a sheep on a boat has
pinkeye, it’s a disaster!

Your hatred for farming and farmers is all too clear, you bias
all too obvious.

Luckily Govts are smarter then taking seriously, some of the
claims of the veggie movement, whose hatred of farmers
and farming has become clearer and clearer.

Farmers are in the main, little people, trying to survive.
If Pale thinks that the live trade is shonky, she knows
nothing about the greedy meat processing industry!
They have made it clear, they are not a charity and will
buy their livestock as cheaply as possible. Given the
lack of competition in the meat industry, the best thing
that farmers can do, is put sheep on a boat and sail
right past them!

dickie,
"It is not your place to instruct me on how best to utilise my endeavours towards animal welfare"

I don't believe I was, I make no mention of your 'endeavors'. Can't you see past yourself? I just don't understand how animal liberator groups can be selective about the animals they defend, on parochial grounds. If it's not about ALL animals what is it about?

"I regret that you have fallen for the Industry Advocate's argument about the difference in the domestic and export prices."

I must have missed your alternative figures, could you present them again.

"What you fail to accept is the substantial net profits of this industry"

Absolutely, it's the net profits that are important.

"Can you advise of any other industry which receives such generous subsidies and tax breaks?"

The automotive industry. The bio-fuel industry. This one takes the cake:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/public-purse-props-up-fossil-fuel-industries/2007/05/07/1178390228019.html

But really, the $50 given by fed govt to the meat processing industry leaves the $2.2 million to live exports looking pretty measly. http://www.maff.gov.au/releases/04/04066wt.html

Rojo

The extra Money is made up between subs and tax cuts.

Eg. Aussies tries to buy a Abattoir and already has bulk of funds cash.

Asks for $500.00 through Government grants. - Knocked back.

Three weeks later Japan given -$40 Million of Australian tax payers money for ‘same plant”.
I call MLA and Live Coupe the dirty dozen.

Unlike the Australian Government overseas care about supplying work for their economy.

Wow there must be some REAL profit in value adding if the can pay so much more and still run at an enormous profit.?

Regardless NO amount is ok if trading in BARBARIC Cruelty.
I think you live in WA by the way.

Yabby said
if Pale thinks that the live trade is shonky, she knows
nothing about the greedy meat processing industry!

Pale Replies.

Yabby I have long debated you and I know you honestly don’t know what goes down re live exports.
I am going to post’ with consent” just one letter regarding working with Muslim and overseas.

I do agree with you about Animal Welfare Groups to a point.

We have LONG requested others work towards re opening plants in Australia.
The way to do that is to befriend State and Federal Ministers of Employment, Health Aboriginal Affairs and many more.

It is only by getting some of the other Ministers involved more Abattoirs Here will open and phase out the live exports.

If other groups DON’T start to get involved soon it WILL triple however they will NOT listen so I share your frustration.

We must actually do something more than show footage.

I KEEP asking them to work together with us on the ONLY alternative to Live Animal Exports.

In my opinion under the leadership of Glenyse Ogjes nothing will change. She simply refuses to work with us and this requires all Animal Welfare groups to get behind it.

The following few posts are fyi on what ALL of the groups SHOULD be working together with us on- But they refuse!

Actually they will not even reply!

Dear Ms. Lewthwaite,

Subject:
Working with and for Indigenous Australia

I refer to our telephone conference of this afternoon and thank you for your timely and kind advice on matters affecting the Muslim Community and the impact of certain policies and tactics of various representative organizations supporting conflicting regime imposition on animal issues particularly slaughter systems in use in Australia.

We are in agreement with your views on concepts of “stunning” on kill floors; other systems that require to be addressed and are happy to engage with you and your group in discussions to help us as part of a Joint Venture Group with Indigenous Australians to acquire, operate and value add to the industry.

Our Group is keen to buy out the @@@ Abattoir, Queensland and its subsidiary at @@@ in New South Wales. We are happy to engage with you to help introduce indigenous Australians become part of the fabric of this country’s business, commercial and agricultural arena.

This Group is also able to source funding from its overseas funding partners for this enterprise and provide the support systems necessary for our products marketing and export to Middle East and South East Asia from our established relationships and partners with whom we expect to make this a viable first step forward.

We therefore seek your assistance to reach the authorities and to seek participation with both the indigenous community as well as Government sources.

I suggest that we structure a meeting of our party and yourselves including indigenous representatives who are keen to come aboard and work with us to make this a reality.

I shall provide to you our brief background in the Community and our ability to reach out to the consumers and producers overseas. We welcome your forthright views, expertise and knowledge of the industry.

Please let us know when it would be possible and convenient for the two of us to travel to Brisbane and to meet up with you and your Group.

Continued.

We believe that our two groups have many common grounds to work with and hope that our joint efforts will bring about the necessary cultural and political changes in the industry to reflect a greater sense of responsibility towards the welfare of the animal that we slaughter on the kill floor and pass on under our various insignia’s and conceptual make-up to the outside world.

We are sure that our commercial, industrial association with indigenous Australians too will have a significant impact on desired community rehabilitation and value-add to the development of cross-cultural understanding in the future.

The Group that you will meet has the support of the President of AFIC and will also bring to the party the blessings and support of the new Mufti of Australia.

There is a great deal of discussion and deliberations in our community as well as outside that animal welfare issues are at the fore-front of all cultural and religious slaughter. And this therefore must be the key criteria for all our activities in this regard.

We are glad that we both have very similar views and ideas on future industry actions that bring not only the larger dollar value to our economy but does so with the valued added humane action that the animal is exposed to at the hands of human beings.

Please call us or contact us both on either of the two emails to further this hour-long telephone conference as we see in this a great deal for the future of Muslim Australia’s interaction with Indigenous Australia and wider society in this country.

The first steps we should be taking as a matter of urgency is to acquire the @@@ Abattoir as it is a @@@ that has been run down due to internecine problems between owners. It has a good record of beef exports out of Queensland to USA, Japan and Korea as well as some of the South Eastern Asian Countries. Our aim is to focus on new markets in the Middle East and make further inroads into South East Asia and Europe.

To Be Continued

Continued

We shall be reliant upon your further advice and the need to move on this particular processor in the short term that will lead us to acquire and operate the @@@ plant too.

Presently we have a great need of @@@ partners especially if there is any support from the Queensland State Government, this would be welcomed.

We believe we have conducted adequate investigations, due diligence and inspections to be satisfied with the @ @ @ @ @ @ Processor at Our reports to our funding parties bear witness to that.

The following members of this Group may be contacted for further discussions. We are both able to travel to Brisbane and to meet with you at short notice.

Kind regards.

@@@ CEO/Managing Director
Australian Construction Services & Logistics Industry @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @


Fmr: Senior Solicitor
Now Businessman and Consultant, Investment & Trade. Attached to Law Firm in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @

Dickie Yabby Rojo Scotty.
So there you have just one example of the work done by PALE and the clear answer to Live Animal Exports.

These people have connections that can turn live exports around eventually and reopen Abattoirs here.
That is both far more humane and is value adding our raw Materials for Australia and giving our Regional Areas a futre in Ag.

Eventually the subs given right now to go off shores would of course be redirected back here.

This is a huge project that we have put several years and en enourous amount of work into.

Unless Animals Australia PETA if they are really interested RSPCA National Voiceless AL PACAT and the sixty or so other groups get involved live Animal Exports will tripple again and we will never stop it.

I am Angry they show NO interest in what is clearly the only alternative.

So while I appluade and support AA especially Lyn White I remain suspicious in WHY they would refuse to help and how much is political?

Hey Yabby, I'm surprised you didnt pick up Dickie's obvious slip-up re sheep breeds! :) Let me educate you little Dickie. Merino's are rarely slaughtered as they have little meat value - they are wool producers. Merino's may be used as the basis by which to produce certain lines of fat lambs (1X, 2X etc), but are not themselves shipped of to slaughter either here or overseas. Hence Yabby's comments about exit from the pastoral industry (which is essentially wool production when talking about sheep). It has very low profitability (maybe around 2% return on assets for owner-operators, before living expenses). One old pastoralist made the comment to me recently that the days of wool are over, and that wool is now there just to keep the meat warm. Actually, I expect that in the longer term wool will make a comeback, as fossil-fuel reliant synthetics become much more expensive.

But I digress. My point being Dickie, is that if you dont know that Merino's are not meat sheep, then you obvious know very little about the industry at all.

"But I digress. My point being Dickie, is that if you dont know that Merino's are not meat sheep, then you obvious know very little about the industry at all."

If the cap fits, Country Gal........!

Not being a farmer, I could be forgiven for errors you claim I have made (though your accusation is fallacious) however, when a farmer offers misinformation such as above, it is cause for concern.

Whilst, you constantly convey to posters, your expertise on farming, I suggest for the sake of your credibility, you return to the drawing board.

The Merino sheep I referred to are grown for meat and wool.

I repeat, those specific sheep I alluded to are sold for meat and wool and they are also exported on the live sheep ships' of shame.

Hot off the press and straight from the sheep's mouth, Country Gal!

Your venom is exceeded only by Yabby's arrogance.

So if at first you don't succeed, why go on and make a fool of yourself?

http://www.liveexport-indefensible.com/investigations/photos.php

. http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:sz0e41mclaMJ:sweetness-light.com/archive/the-eid-festival-around-the-world-graphic-photos+animal+torture+muslim+festivals&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_en

Are you sure the accusation wasn't phallacious, dickie?

Of course Bugsy - how right you are!

God bless and phalutations!

http://www.liveexport-indefensible.com/investigations/photos.php

. http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:sz0e41mclaMJ:sweetness-light.com/archive/the-eid-festival-around-the-world-graphic-photos+animal+torture+muslim+festivals&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_en

"Hey Yabby, I'm surprised you didnt pick up Dickie's obvious slip-up re sheep breeds! :) Let me educate you little Dickie. Merino's are rarely slaughtered as they have little meat value - they are wool producers. Merino's may be used as the basis by which to produce certain lines of fat lambs (1X, 2X etc), but are not themselves shipped of to slaughter either here or overseas. Hence Yabby's comments about exit from the pastoral industry (which is essentially wool production when talking about sheep).

"But I digress. My point being Dickie, is that if you dont know that Merino's are not meat sheep, then you obvious know very little about the industry at all." says Country Gal

Is that right, Country Gal? Then I suggest you present your phallacies to Elders Livestock Division:

http://livestock.elders.com.au/live_exports.asp

http://www.liveexport-indefensible.com/investigations/photos.php

. http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:sz0e41mclaMJ:sweetness-light.com/archive/the-eid-festival-around-the-world-graphic-photos+animal+torture+muslim+festivals&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_en

Actually Country Gal, on this one you had better stick to
accounting :) Being from NSW, I guess they don't discuss
the live trade often in the press, as here in WA.

Dickie would know, from diligently reading her West Australian,
that merinos are the backbone of the live trade. She would
also know the front end, ie where the grass goes in, compared
to the back end, ie where it comes out :) Not much more then
that it seems.

Some interesting figures from the ABARE website. They quote
the top 25% of specialist wool industry farms, between
2001-2004, excluding capital appreciation, as having farm
business profits of 38k$. The other 75% lost 38k$!

So much for these rich woolgrowers! No wonder so many in
the station country are switching to Damaras etc. Its a
PGA hot topic.

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/2007/s2060936.htm

Pale, yet another WA meatworks canned the idea of reopening
in a regional centre. No workers available in WA, sorry.

They don't even have the staff to slaughter the sheep in
WA with the live trade in action. Some years they have trucked
them to the East, now thats not fair on those animals, sorry.

Nevermind, Siba are soon to launch two really flash new boats,
to save WA farmers.

paleif,
"I think you live in WA"

Sorry, no I couldn't get much further away, northern NSW. No access to live exports here, but I don't begrudge the ability to others. Could you clarify if the japanese meat works provided with Australian money is employing Australians?

I don't doubt there is good money in processing, look at the price the farmer gets versus the retail price. I just don't understand why then do so many go out of business.

I'm all for new processors starting up and clawing back live exports, by paying the required price per sheep.

"I just don't understand why then do so many go out of business."

Rojo, there are a number of reasons. Being all perishable its a
difficult and extremely dirty business, ie. everyone is trying to
send the next guy broke. They steal each others markets, they
outdiscount one another, so the cheaper they can buy their livestock,
the more they can shaft the other operators. Farmers are the
big losers from all of this.

I've always said that farmers behave like a herd of zebras. Meat
processors are far worse, they try to eat each other on the way.

Many of the smaller operators are simply undercapitalised and
do not have economies of scale. If you are putting 200k sheep down
a chain per year or a million, there is a huge difference. One
guy can afford modern machinery to reduce labour costs, the other
guy can't.

Few processors do much to value add their product, in the mutton game
most of it is sold at low prices, to the third world. You have limited
markets, who of course play off the processors, one against the other.

When it comes to value adding and creating innovative products, that
hardly happens. Its easier to dump and outbid the next guy by 10c
a kg. If he goes broke, you'd have one competitor less to deal with
in the buying and selling. So its law of the jungle out there!

Live sheep ships sail past all these Aussies trying to send each
other broke, the chain between farmer and consumer is much shorter.

This is off topic but something I am sure most of you here will support. http://www.pigout.net.au

Country Girl.

I am glad old Yabbs disclosed your trade.
We didn’t like to considering that information was sent by yourself to us in a private email.

There are two things we simple do not understand about your comments.

One- Why on earth would you be having a shot at dickie that is simply - Speaking out about atrocities to Animals?

Apart from the fact you have already told us you know nothing of the live animal trade- What difference does it make to you which breed they are? –
They are animals aren’t they?
They are alive and suffering isn’t they?

Are you saying its ok for one breed of Animals to be treated like that but not others?

It should not be hard for you to figure out that the Government has stacked the deck.

Dickie

MLA informed us years ago they could not assist us to market chilled meat to Kuwaiti because that was Mark Vailes personal baby.

`done deals` personally arranged” by Mark Vaile Government to Government- Australia to Kuwaiti! Shame!


Rudd ran from the opportunity handed him to raise to the public AWB were live exporters.

I note his silence regarding the fact they announced on Monday the AWB enquiry was unable to proceed to look at charges being laid against tall poppies because- THEY RAN OUT OF FUNDS?

Do not be fooled by promises made by Andrew that he will get ALP to make changes. Some people have been played by these promises for years!
Yup he cares but he’s a poly first.
Bernie and Gavern have no intention of doing anything especially under the direction of Rudd.
We might get a hearing from Simon but he’s pretty controlled now.

The only way is to give the Greens more power in the Senate and work with overseas contacts to reopen plants here in Australia.
It is only by overseas people putting pressure on the government will be forced to make the necessary changes back again.
We have Massive Foreign debt- Our Government ONLY listen to overseas demands- Not the Australian public.

Yabby

You say another WA Meat Industry owner has gone down the gurgler with some sort of sick pride.
You say- no workers available- sorry.

You know very well we are short on workers for many industries but meat works is the `only Industry` not allowed to bring in skilled workers.?
So you’re ` concerned` about Australian families in the regional areas and the meat industry are you?

Then what about the Australian families involved in that plant and the many others.?

What about all the plant owners and their families that have suffered over the years because they have been forced to close their business down?

What about the people they employed who had kids going to school and mortgages.

Please don’t tell me there are none because we have spoken to hundreds!

Then you claim that trucking animals from on destination to another is cruel.

You know full well they are trucked across Australia to meet the demands of the live trade.
You also know I am not just talking about sheep but cattle horse’s goat’s deer and many others. It’s outrageous. Wild goats being trapped first and left standing- then trucked fifteen hundred miles HERE in Australia THEN put on ships is stifling heat THEN the ones that are still alive are thrown kicked bashed whipped dragged without water or shade in fifty degree heat another thousand miles plus!
Yabby Said-
I've always said that farmers behave like a herd of zebras. Meat
processors are far worse, they try to eat each other on the way.
Pale replies.

I don’t see much sympathy for farmers by you in this comment so perhaps the truth is out at last.

You couldn’t care less about the struggling Aussies Yabby.

To Be continued

Continued

Rojo this assist your question- Why do so many Abattoirs close.

Yes meat processors are a tough lot. They were made that way by fighting to keep their doors open. They have been betrayed by the National Party and Government.

The big live exporters started out by re directing the trade running a beast through chains below costs.

They did that “just to put the smaller plant owner out of business”.

Sometimes they ran at a loss for four months or even longer waiting for the smaller abattoir operator to bleed to death.
If it costs the smaller abattoir operator for example $220.00 dollars to process a beast they would run it at $173.00 or $175.00

[ The Government did nothing to stop it]

This was all done working under a much bigger plan to “redirect the stock” to the cruel live animal trade for their trade dollars deals.

Kerry Packer was `particularly good` at that buying up many plants and providing employment for a year or two.

Of course it was smart- or so he thought to ensure his supply first!.- Get the know the farmers.

Get the farmers relying on him to buy their stock. Gain their trust.

Plus he loved the big image of driving into little country towns to be hailed as a hero.

He actually really saw him self as just that. To hell with the millions of suffering animals that he helped create.




They say there is no money in farming. Huh look at the big boys screwing the farmers!

The Murdock’s and the Packers Elders and many other low lives of this world have much to answer for to our maker.

The problem was for the farmers back then that they were in fact real farmers who trusted the wrong people and never asked the pertinent questions.

That’s how it all started. They were farmers not trade deal men and the low lives knew that.


Then they closed the abattoirs down claiming HUGE tax deductions that the places were `supposededly` running at a loss - then trade deals.

Greed Shame Corruption

PF, do you know the survey results will be used? I will happily support if it is used to demonstrate demand for free-range to farmers and/or encourage customers to purchase free-range products. I can't support the petition if it is going to be used to lobby govt to "ban" intensive farming because the only outcome will be extra importation of foreign pork which will still be intensively farmed and undercutting free-range pork. Effectively we will export jobs and fail to value add our feed grains if free-range production is anything other than customer driven demand.

Hey Dickie, (a) I didnt think my post contained any venom, just a dig about sheep breeds (b) I m happy to admit when I am in error. When I clicked down on your links and saw the photo's contained therein, I agree that the sheep are merino's, not cross-breds. Must be a WA thing like you say Yabby. Where I grew up and in all places in NSW that I've lived, merino's arent considered to be worth anything for meat, only good for wool, or starting meat-breed crosses. Merino's themselves are usually only shipped off to the ab's once they are past their productive lives (actually is usually to the saleyards, and on the odd occasion they are bought by the ab's, or often by smaller farmers trying to get good bloodlines). Given that live exports arent that big in New South, that's why I've stayed out of the discussion until now - not really my area. Just jumped in re the merino's comment, because they are what I consider "proper" sheep - not boof-heads like cross-breds! :)

PALEIF, I was simply pointing out that if you dont know the difference between sheep breeds, its a bit rich to comment on an industry that you dont seem to have done much research on. Like I said, I'm happy to take a bow when I get things wrong, and have done so here :). What this does go to show though is the diversity in farming practices in Australia, which is something that city-folk rarely appreciate. The breeds issue is why I usually stay out of discussion involving cattle, as I dont really know that much about them (apart from broad issues). I prefer sheep anyway - not nearly as dumb as most would have you believe :)

Pale, your post is the normal, confusing gobbledygook. Its time that you moved
on with the world. I remind you that Kerry is pushing up daisies, James is
building casinos around the world and Rupert is in NY, taking over the world’s
media. Meantime the Brazilians are slowly moving in and will probably
take over a large share of your cattle processing industry.

Yes, regional works will close, if they are too small and not competitive
in terms of economies of scale. Australia moved to market economics
twenty years ago and its not about to change because of Pale :)

Which WA meat industry owner went down the gurgler? Who lost their
jobs? I don’t think you read the URL properly in the first place.

I remind you that around 2% of farmers shut their doors every year, unable
to keep up with the cost price squeeze. They move on and rebuild their
lives. For workers its easier, they don’t lose a business and lifestyle,
simply find another job. Thousands upon thousands of farmers have shut
their doors, over the last twenty years.

Most live sheep exported from WA, travel 3-5 hours to a port accumulation
facility, where they are vaccinated, checked, accustomed to sheep cubes etc.
Then they go onto a floating feedlot, with food, water, shelter etc, and gain
weight along the way.

I remind you that the distance from Perth to SE Asia is shorter then the
distance from Perth to Sydney! No live sheep are trucked from Perth
to Victoria, to go on a boat, but they are, to go to a meatworks.

My philosophical observation that farmers behave like a herd of zebras,
is exactly that. The same truism applies to share speculators and people
in general. I tend to separate emotion from reason, something which you
seem unable to do, as you wear your heart on your sleeve.

Rojo, thanks for your intelligent and informed contribution.
At least somebody on this thread who has the ability to reason!

Country Gal

I'm unconcerned whether live experts include Merino sheep, cattle, goats or camels. The despair and misery of these animals is the same in any language. I'm primarily concerned with the lack of ethics and moral clarity which is seriously deficient in this rats' nest of inhumanity.

I remain grateful to PALE who has performed extensive research into this industry of disgrace - information invaluable in confirming that the spivs that crawl around the edges of politics have forfeited any rights in protesting against fair-minded people's objections to the crimes against these animals.

Fifty years in senior positions in private industry, has also taught me how political parties are captured by influential though unethical industries which constantly lobby for special favours in the name of fiscal health and the subsequent pork barrelling which continues to flourish.

Excerpt published online: 20 March 2007

Abstract "We examine crime that emerges from the global restructuring of agriculture and food systems by employing the case of the Australian “Ship of Death,” whereby nearly 58,000 sheep were stranded at sea for almost 3 months in 2003, violating the Western Australia Animal Welfare Act of 2002.

"This case demonstrates that the acceleration of transnational trade networks, in the context of agri-food globalization, victimizes animals and constitutes a crime.

"Herein, we examine this case in depth and show how economic restructuring, driven by a “logic of capital” orientation, can exert pressure on the state causing it to fail to enforce its own regulations and in this way engage in criminal actions."

Globalization - MV Cormo Express - State crime

Authors, Wynne Wright is an Assistant Professor at Michigan State University specializing in agri-food systems and political sociology and Stephen Muzzatti is Vice-Chair of the American Society of Criminology’s Division on Critical Criminology.

And these criminals continue to engage in "criminal action!"

"I tend to separate emotion from reason, something which you
seem unable to do, as you wear your heart on your sleeve" says Yabby

Like you, Yabby, cold-blooded, funnel web spiders are devoid of emotion too and also extremely adept at preying on the defenceless.

Additional URL on the truth behind the avaricious live animal export industry and its impact on jobs for Australians in Australia!:

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:T6Ptb9eVAIoJ:www.pacat.org/facts.htm+sheep+export+farms+how+many+numbers+australia&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_en

http://www.liveexport-indefensible.com/investigations/photos.php

. http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:sz0e41mclaMJ:sweetness-light.com/archive/the-eid-festival-around-the-world-graphic-photos+animal+torture+muslim+festivals&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_en

Spiders eh Dickie? Your venom is showing! I remind you that male
spiders are usually fairly harmless, quite content with a bit of
food and sex. Its the females that are usually the nasty ones! :)

You clearly wern't around long enough in the business world,
to understand the importance of Emotional Intelligence.
Daniel Goleman made it common knowledge and its now a fairly
standard part of good business practise. It also helps the
emotionally engulfed, become emotionally aware. Wearing one's
heart on one's sleeve, commonly leads to disaster after distaster
in life, as many have found out the hard way. If you get time,
read Goleman's book.

If the extremist end of the veggie movement really cared about
animals, they would assist farmers to change and improve things
in the Middle East, not discrimate against some animals from
some countries. Organisations like animal liberation, are far
keener to shut farmers and farming down, one would have to assume
after reading their website. You have commented enough about
your opinion of farmers, farming and meat consumption. Given
that only a tiny % of the population agree with you, clearly
your opinions are extremist!

Its seems thats what you would love Dickie. Close down the live
trade and let those evil farmers go broke, for they would have
no option but to shoot the livestock. Sorry Dickie, that's
not exactly what I call caring and compassionate.

Israel and Jordan
Yossi Wolfson

Yossi Wolfson is an Israeli Attorney. He has met shipments of Australian animals arriving in Aqaba through Jordan and into Israel and documented the journey and conditions animals endure during transport and slaughter.

Following is his graphic account of the slaughter of cattle in an Israeli abbatoir:

"The animal must be fully conscious when the throat is cut. The process is long.

The animal is pulled into a restraining box where its legs are shackled. Then, pulled by the shackles, it is thrown on its back and its legs and body pulled upwards.

The animal's screams as it lies suspended by the legs on its back gives some idea of their absolute fear. This shackling process can take many minutes.

The abattoir's workers arrange the screaming animal for the slaughter man - pouring water on the neck and into the mouth. They straighten the shackles, restraining the head.

The sharp cut that comes then is not the end of it. The animal continues to struggle and gasp for air for some time while the blood is pouring and the body is dragged upwards and moved to be processed. At the same time another animal is already watching the scene from the restraining box."

Yossi Wolfson describes the transfer of animals from truck to truck at the border crossing between Jordan and Israel.

"Plastic pipes are use to beat the animals. No ramps are used. Animals are forced to jump from truck to truck or run over a gap. Legs that get caught in the gap or between the rails are a common sight. Sheep are picked up by their horns, ears or fleece, or are physically thrown from truck to truck.

The lucky ones will go from here into quarantine, where (after another brutal unloading) they will finally be watered. Animals can go without water for days during transport. Others will stay the whole day and night on the trucks to be transported to the Palestinian Authority.

contd........

Israel and Jordan - Yossi Wolfson contd......

"There they will experience another unloading (again – no ramps available) and another loading to their final destination.

It is no coincidence that so many animals die. The death and suffering are shocking even for people who earn their living from the industry.

It was a driver who led us to see and photograph four Australian calves thrown away at the quarantine. Three were obviously dead and the fourth wasn't moving.

But there was blood in his nose, and the blood was bubbling, hinting breath. Euthanasia is clearly not practiced here: the calf was just left to die. And when the people in charge saw us taking pictures we had to run for our lives."

I trust Yossi Wolfson's account made the earth move for you, Yabby. Don't bother responding - you never have. You will of course endeavour to distract the reader by more of your inane sophistry. Your perverse and grotesque delusions and condonation of this inherently evil trade, which tortures the brief lives of animals, for a convenient and lucrative meal ticket, is well known.

"Given that only a tiny % of the population agree with you,clearly
your opinions are extremist!"

Take your hand off it Yabby. Your crusade for cruelty is finite. There are millions of protestors around the world where numbers are expanding rapidly and it is you who will be regarded as the extremist!

Yes indeed....there is much work to be done.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:T6Ptb9eVAIoJ:www.pacat.org/facts.htm+sheep+export+farms+how+many+numbers+australia&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_en

http://www.liveexport-indefensible.com/investigations/photos.php

. http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:sz0e41mclaMJ:sweetness-light.com/archive/the-eid-festival-around-the-world-graphic-photos+animal+torture+muslim+festivals&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_e

http://www.shechitauk.org/downloads/A_Guide_to%20Shechita_July_2004.pdf

So let me read about animal welfare under Jewish Law.

"Jewish Law requires that animals be treated with consideration,
kindness and respect. These laws are binding to Jews today"

Somehow by magic, the veggie brigade seem to think that if
they can bankrupt Australian farmers, people in the Middle
East will miraculously become vegetarians. Think again!

As Scott Hanson notes in this week's Farm Weekly, Australia
is the only country working in the Middle East to improve
animal welfare standards. But rather then assist Australian
farmers in this mission, veggies prefer not to bother with
changing things in the Middle East, or pointing out what
religious laws require.

Out of sight, seems to be out of mind, for the veggie brigade!
Shame on you for deserting Middle Eastern animals!

Countrygirl-
Sure. Many of your comments have been ‘helpful” in the past months. Take it from us Dickies work is 100% correct.

PF. Well done. Glad to see your working with Verna. THE best operator in Australia. Btw Your work is never off post.

Yabbs- Poor little Yabbs. I know your confused and you cant follow what we are on about.

That’s my point. You really don’t know anything that’s not written on the Industry or Governments web site.

If you knew anything Yabby you would know the sites are all bull for the public. Its common knowledge among operators.

Dickey
It is us who thank you for your hard efforts.

We hope you keep this thread open so we can post facts about MLA, Austrade, Farmers Federations, Peter McGauran’s advisor AVA! RSPCA National? WSPA Dr Hugh Wirth as President of WSPA.- Andrew G O.

Firstly- MLA. David Jones of MLA who “insisted” we were wasting our time speaking to him and MLA about chilled meat exports to Malaysia.

Nothing happening regarding Malaysia said Mr. Jones.?

He also said he didn’t know Mr. Mohamed Ruhmann was?

Ooops!- Mr. Jones isn’t that you standing along side Mr. Mohamed Ruhmann and the Malaysian PM?

http://www.worldhalalforum.org/index.php?mod=content&id=4
Mr Mohamed A Rahman, Halal Coordinator, Australian Federation of Islamic Councils (AFIC) [Download]

Mr David Jones, Marketing Service Manager, Meat and Livestock Australia (MLA) [Download]

Oh Dear somebody has taken the pictures off the site. Wonder Why?

fyi Mr Jones – Heres `another picture`- of Mohamed and ourselves.

http://www.halakindmeats.com/

Let me ASSURE you Dickie if everybody contacts JAKIM instead of the Australian Government they DO listen.

You see Dickie little did MLA David Jones know it was myself working with Amjad that kicked JAKIM off to come to Australia rather than Canada years ago.

We held the enitial meetings to which we invited AA and Dr Wirth MANY times.
There was ZERO interest-

I will expose more bleeps and blunders by MLA and AVA and others throughout Dickies thread in an attempt to educate the public.

Dickie
Give our regards to Yossie.

Dickie the ONLY way it will change is by working with the farmers and overseas Muslim contacts and through JAKIM and Islamic Councils.

Yabby is also correct about the fact that protesting meat eaters is making it worse because the public switch off after a while.

There is great need for change within Animal Welfare Organisations in Australia.

Do NOT be mislead by people with political agendas.

To REALLY make changes you must break free.

Personally I would like to see Verna Dawn Low Mark Pearson Lyn White Trish Brown Maggie and a few others take over the reins.
I would like to se Lyn White heading it.

Meet with JAKIM Meet and with other Muslim Contacts. They will fund you from Saudi.
Meet with the people I posted the letter from at the top.
Stop being TOLD what you can and cant do.
Its the old rough tough meat workers and the Muslims themselves along side Aussie farmers that CAN make the difference.

We dont need to lobby government or Industry. We can just do this and start to faze out the live trade but ONLY by working direct with Saudi and Malyasia and other countries.

All they want is contacts and support.
Sadly as they have said many times themselves they are stuck with HAVING to go through the Australian Government and the Industry and they KNOW they are lied to time and time again - just like us.

Yabby is right. If Animal Welfare groups really want to help they would work towards this- instead of black listing the only group in Australia with this background knowledge and contacts.

Next I would like to discuss You mr Dr Hugh Wirth and your refusal to except pale as members of WSPA.?
As you are President of WSPA along side your background of head of RSPCA National - We are just wondering what the problem is?
Umm perhaps its that we know a little more than your average fund raisers?

Before We Go On - The Answer Is

We A. All ban together and contact farmers to arrange vists from overseas contacts.

B We all sponser a prime time TV Programe such as has done with RSPCA Rescue.

Perhaps it could be run directly after showing and discussing each week footage such as Dickie Placed above and also Intensive Farming.

Each Week we can talk a little more about Live Exports to educate the public.

C We All Lobby united the UN and if need be bring this to a court.

I was Entiley serious btw about the public Enquiry into Intensive Farming and Live Animal exports and this could be a part of the show.

All we need is a pink tent and members to support it. We will supply wittness.

Each week also we could invite people like PACAT Dawn Suzanne Caz and the thousands of people who each have something to share from their own areas.

You have a Pig Farmer up the top that would make a good guest speaker.

Perhaps PF would allow the TV crew to view the farm from a distance and speak about Free Range Pig Farms.

Think about it everyone.
Prime time TV show.
Each person and group being able to get their message out.

Muslim Leaders speaking out to the public letting them know the porkies claiming they MUST have Animal Alive for religious purposes are just that.

Mind you some might not appreciate my expression- but then again some will laugh.
These Muslim people are highly educated and VERY interested in Australias disease free green products.

Do not be fooled by the Government and Industries lies.
They are not.
We are Not.
You shouldnt be either ladies and gentleman of Australia.
How say you Dickie?
Do we launch are own TV show?
Will you help us to get the others onboard?
Would you be the spokes person regarding this and we will do everything possible to back you?

PRIME TIME TV SHOW TO TELL IT ALL TO THE AUSTRALIAN PUBLIC.
We will put in our share. Will Others Help

dickie, from the pacat link you provided:

"Middle Eastern consumers prefer local sheep and goats (e.g. Awassi, Damara breeds) and will increasingly source these animals from North African and other nearby countries if they are not readily available from Australia.
When Australia suspended trade to Saudi Arabia as a result of the Cormo Express Rejection (2003 - 2005), Saudi live animal requirements were sourced primarily from neighboring North African countries"

So why then such a focus on Aussie sheep and little focus on the actual ME slaughter practices. Surely it should be about the welfare of all animals?

Tojo

You selectively failed to report on the following excerpts from the same URL:

"Further, Dr Nigel Brown, Middle East-based LiveCorp/MLA veterinarian confirmed (9/2/04 ABC News) that other countries find it hard to keep up with the 'increasing demand in the region' and are unlikely to be able to provide the volume of disease-free young sheep that has been made available from Australia in recent years.

During the previous ban on live sheep and cattle from Australia to Saudi Arabia (1991 - 2000), there was a 3-fold increase in exports of chilled and frozen mutton and lamb to that market [reported in the Heilbron report, 2000] - This is clear evidence that consumers in the Middle East will accept meat from animals killed in Australia.

If Australia banned the live export of animals it would bring to the fore Australia's valued international disease free meat status - which adds immense potential to further market and extend our current exports of our chilled meat exports to this region.

Importantly, an Australian ban on live export on welfare grounds would provide a powerful ethical precedent that other countries would find difficult to ignore. As Dr Brown stated - it is very unlikely that any other country could fill the void. This would serve to further encouraging the growing importation of chilled meat in the region, rather than live animals."

Oh dearie me, and that report was from a Livecorp/MLA's veterinarian.
Hang your head in shame, Yabby!

Only pathological freaks, torturing defenceless animals in their quest for profit, could feign ignorance of that report.

Do you suffer memory losses, Tojo? Why do you ask the same questions twice?

"If Australia banned the live export of animals it would bring to the fore Australia's valued international disease free meat status - which adds immense potential to further market and extend our current exports of our chilled meat exports to this region."

Ooh thats easily answered Dickie. Given all yours and others theories
and speculations, given the immense claimed potential, we'll sell you the
sheep for 60 bucks, rather then to Fletcher for 15-20 bucks.
You slaughter them where you like and we'll all be happy!

Quite simple really. Put up or shut up.

Yabby

Yes it really is that simply- Your On.

Rodger Fletcher is a self made million air. He is a perfect example of how it can be done.
Hes done it and doing it for a long time now.
He also employs many People.


At The peak of Australias Live Exports trade with Saudi Arabia, there were over 3 million sheep being exported way back then to that country alone.
When the effect of the Saudis 1989 ban came into place, the exports of chilled meat more than tripled. This is just one example that destroys the assertion of minimal substitution, as advanced by the live animal export lobby.

Also please never forget the levies set up and the fact we Aussie meat prodiucers are entiled to our half share at least of those lobbies to reopen along with the infustructure grants now afforded in ME etc.
Dont forget the clear block on meat industry in Australia to bring in labour just like EVERY other Industry is encouraged to do!
Read the letter I posted up to from leading Muslim reps.
Do not assume you know more than these people themselves.

Dickie- Could you please reply to our above post to you regarding a TV show like RSPCA Rescue for Animal Groups to educate the public ?

Also what do you think about Animal Groups meeting with Muslim Contacts and working together by introducing overseas guest to Aussie farmers with a view to reopen plants here in Australia?

Pale, if its that simple, well then no need to get your knickers in
a twist about the live trade. Just buy the sheep before they go
on any boat. Farmers don't have a problem with that.

We saw what happened last time the trade to Saudi was restricted.
Despite larger sales to Kuwait, Jordan etc, because of less live
sheep, WA mutton prices sank to the floor. Sheep were being trucked
all the way East for processing, thousands of km. Processors could
lick their greasy little fingers, with demand and supply so out of
balance that farmers were even more at their mercy then normal.
It was basically a disaster for farmers.

Fletcher will tell you that he can't pay more for sheep, because
of cheap chicken from Brazil, high processing costs here,
taxes like payroll tax etc. How many people have lobbied to have
payroll tax dropped on meat exports? Why should an export industry
be taxed extra?

You Aussie meat producers? When did you produce or sell meat last?
You are free to vote in MLA elections just like anyone else, if
you did produce any meat.

If you kept up to date with the labour story, you would know that
Andrews agreed to the meat industry bringing in 457 workers, but
with a long list of conditions. Processors say that those conditions
are such, that the end labour cost is far higher then the present
award, so makes the whole thing unworkable and unviable. So we
are back to square 1.

But anyhow, all this is resolved now. No more problems, Pale
will buy the lot! Yippee!!

For those obsessed about the evils of the Middle East, there is in
fact another practical solution. Given that we in WA are closer
to Malaysia, then some Eastern States centres, so its really only
a hop,skip and a jump, there is no reason that the Malaysians
can't not get involved.

Build a modern, humane, large works in Malaysia, where workers are
plentiful and willing to work. Then use some modern boats to
transport sheep there, for processing and value adding. That fits
in with their Halal hub plans. Given the close distance,
turnaround time would be zilch.

But of course that sort of thinking is outside the little square
that the veggie brigade limit themselves to. If its a boat, it
must be evil etc. Rather truck them to the East, which is just
as far or further, in crowded conditions, no food or water.

Somehow rational thinking does not seem to enter these debates
alot of the time, just blinding ideology.

You make a very valid point Yabby, and one that seems to have shut them up too.

I think I would prefer a boat trip to a road train. Does anyone keep tally of the death rates on road transport?

PF

For Pity Sake don’t do to Verna what you did to us and others.

Its not smart to burn everybody who gets involved with you.

I do not think she would appreciate your supporting live exports after having her picture! up on your web page.

That’s so inconsiderate and thoughtless.


As to your question regarding road transport the DPI has a MOU with RSPCA. I am pretty sure you would know that by transporting pigs.
However knowing the DPI State Governments and the slack attitude towards Animal Welfare the answer is pretty much No.


Yabby
Yabby Said
How many people have lobbied to have?
payroll tax dropped on meat exports? Why should an export industry
Be taxed extra?
Pale replies
Yabby that’s probably the most sensible thing you have ever said.
Exactly!
Yabby said
You are free to vote in MLA elections just like anyone else, if
you did produce any meat.
Pale Replies.
Thanks Yabby I look forward to it after a proper investigation of them and AWB contacts- along with Livecoupre and others.
It’s really very simple.
We just want half and half. Half the Levies sub grants building here instead of ME.
Yabby Said
Build a modern, humane, large works in Malaysia, where workers are
plentiful and willing to work. Then use some modern boats to
transport sheep there, for processing and value adding. That fits
in with their Halal hub plans. Given the close distance,
turnaround time would be zilch.
Pale replies.
Yabby
We started that. All was going well. Animals were to be slaughtered HERE and sent on to JAKIM in full caruss form. Several Plants in each State to train Aboriginal and Regional people etc. JAKIM most certainly are the future hub of Halal..
However Andrews and Government are making it difficult to continue.

Yabby Said
If you kept up to date with the labour story,

What Story Yabby?

Kerry Obiens Office called me Friday.
There is no Story. Of COURSE we know about bringing in wokers.

They don’t even HAVE a policy as yet!

What else is new. Hopleless.

dickie, because the answer the first time was pitiful. The second time even worse.

Verna? website? Do what i did to others? What on earth are you on about PALE? Just because I put up a link doesnt mean I own it :)

Obviously you dont have a come back for the point Yabby has made do you? Otherwise you would not have found in necessary to launch at me once again.

The point is a valid one. With all the fuss about ships, does anyone care what is happening in our own backyard? Or does your cause discrimate on the ground of how an animal is transported? What is it, to hell the rest, they are not newsworthy enough??

We are happy to answer Yabby.

What we are not going to do is post to yourself Lee.

You simply have no consideration. Here is yet another example by gate crashing Dickies thread regarding live exports.

As we said last time you cant have your foot in both camps. If your going to support the cruel live trade I sincerly suggest you dont use Vernas picture to promote your farm.

You should know very well she strongly opposes the live Animal Trade and its more than a link btw - Its her picture on your site.

We have tried to encourage your free range work with pigs but sadly it would seem its not possibly for you to just post about animal welfare.


History has shown you have destroyed just about every thread on animal welfare regardless of whom started it.

Yabby As for ships btw our programe is to have aboriginal people set up with their own yards and to be building our own.
[ I dont mean live export ships either]

Our role Yabby is to do what we are doing- What you complain Animal Welfare groups do not do-
We work with farmers and overseas meat purchasers. We protest Animal Cruelty and lobby for change to acts by all Governments.

We are NOT getting into another thread to waiste time with Lee`s going on.

Personally I find it difficult to see how anybody could only care about pigs and not all animals who travel from farm gate to plate and before.
Something does not add up.

Dickie- Looking for your thoughts on our suggestions.
We will continue to post regarding MLA and many others unless Lee makes my time on this thread waisted.

If the thread goes off post with personal attacts we simply will not participate.

Lee seems to have a problem with people like you and I who protest Live Animals and Intensive farming.

Then she claims shes against Instensive farming herself.

Just bury your head a little deeper in the sand PALE, and bring out the personal attacks, that will make it all go away ….

It seems the welfare of animals on trucks is irrelivant to you. What you are advocating would mean a lot more sheep be transported over land, what makes you think they will be any better off? You just don’t care though do you. Just get them off ships, what happens after that doesn’t matter it seems.

Pale, your response highlights my point exactly. Blind ideology,
not reasoned thought, is the driver behind the animal libber brigade.

I put forward a humane, practical solution, given the present
circumstances in WA, with its resources boom etc. It would be a
win-win all round, but of course blind ideology gets in the way.

PF reasoned about what I had stated, much to her credit. You on
the other hand, just gave the normal parroted response, diverting
from the core issue as ever.

I certainly hope that MLA would never give an organisation like yours,
a single cent. You are neither a meat processor, research institution,
nor a meat producer. Most MLA funding is in fact
spent in Australia. The small portion spent in the Middle East
is to improve animal welfare in that region. Diverting any of
that funding for other causes, would take it away from a great cause
and would certainly not be in the interests of animals.

Anyhow, you can complain all you like, I doubt if too many take
much notice :)

AWB is and remains a non issue. Yes they own Landmark and yes
Landmark act as commission agents for farmers selling livestock
to the live trade. So what? Its public knowledge, always has been.

Pales web sites and other web sites run by pale clearly complain about the lack of plants to process farm animals.

It goes one step futher and actually makes strong suggestions that farm animals are sold by the net and taken direct to a close by plant.
In order to achieve that we need all Animal Groups to actually help to establish free range farms plants by getting involved at grass roots level both with Aussie Farmers and overseas contacts.

Nothing will change too much if we 'only' lobby the governments and the Industry.
They make their policies by listening to what overseas wants.
Its as simple as that.

They also run MLA Austrade And FF Australia wide with a steal fist.
There is no sense of fair play within this very closed Industry.

To make changes we must by pass them and bring in investors to re open plants.
As many plants as possible to make trips to Abattoirs as short as distance as possible.
Kevin Rudd Still does not have a policy on any of this - or so he says.
We all know its just more of the same. The same lack of regulations and inspections.

The same utter disregard for Trucking Animals long distances.

The last time I looked pale was just one of the many no paid group of people who care enough to try to put forth suggestions to improve all areas of Animal Welfare.

We are not the Government or trucking agencies or the industry itself trucking animals hundreds and hundreds of miles.

I suggest you direct your anger at both All The State Governments and the Federal Government.

pale can NOT do everything ourselves. We are NOT the Government.
Other than your own pigs who travel; two hours according to you-
What are you doing about road for transport for other animals?

As you seem to think its so simple to make these low lifes show some basic decency to Animals Why Dont You Stop The Long hauls?
Also NO free range pork up here for Christmass!

Yabby
Just remember you raised Landmark. I will get into that later but I am not going there now.
I think Dickies thread deserves to stay on post.
Mind you this is what happens. People open threads and end up leaving when the mentality of school yard kids come along.
I have raised it with GY and if he doesnt do something this time we will simply stop posting on OLO .
We are not going to waiste our time.
We have a great deal many more bits of evidence to post for Dickie but not with people making off post comments and doing everything they can to desrtoy this thread.
Then have the hide to say they care about Animals.

Yabby- When I am ready I will diclose info about Landmark.

Right now we are just grateful Dickies opended the thread and think the public reading it might appreciate some more informed posts - not rubbish

"Just remember you raised Landmark. "

Err hang on Pale. You keep raising AWB, of which Landmark is
simply a division. AWB is of course a non issue in this
debate, so its you who is going off topic.

I've made some points about a practical solution to the
whole live sheep story, based on reasoned thought, which
anyone is free to comment about.

As these points are outside of the narrow little ideology
of the veggie brigade, no doubt they will not even
be considered.

So we'll just muddle along as we are now, with no satisfactory
outcomes and nothing changing

Wendy the only one off topic here is you.

Go back and read dickies opening post.

"The gut wrenching, ABC report showed footage of hog-tied animals, shoved in car boots. Others crammed into trucks, exhausted and distressed. Live animals being dragged backwards by one leg to have their throats cut."

Hello! all this happens here in australia. So what happens if you manage to stop them being loaded on ships? Doesnt matter? You think your work will be done? You need to think about the consequences of your actions and follow a plan through.

Your narrow little view point and uninformed arguements and made even worse by the personal attacks you launch every time some ones opinion differs to yours.

If you want a private conversation with Dickie, pick up the phone, otherwise we are free to post what we think.

dickie
You may email us if you wish. As you know this is what happens every time somebody such as yourself or us and others open a thread on this topic.
We have said ONLY when abattoirs are reopended in Australia will there be less road transport here and no ships taking our Australia Animals off to third world countries.
Personally I find it distressing that others refuse to assist to open plants back here in Australia.
Thats the Answer- Its the ONLY answer and it always will be.
I was happy to post about AVA Landmark MLA and others however its impossible with the serial trouble maker.
I also find your support of the live animal trade discusting PF especially while using good people such as verna to promote you web pages.
Every group you have been in contact with has suffered PF because of your trouble making.
RSPCA also are very busy people who are so short staffed are unable! to through away their time.

Good thread Dickie and of course we support it.
Live Exports is our Nations greatest shame along with Intensive Farming.
Open Free Range Farms and reopen abattoirs if you want to fix it.
I know Dickie you cant do this alone.
Nor can we- However we are more than happy to assist with contacts and lawyers.
We wont be posting here anymore on Animal Welfare until GY does something about this women flaming every ! Animal Welfare thread.
We have other things to do.

Yabby
AWB is not a `no issue`. They are live exporters . Its so sick that the public dont seem to care that they say they can not go further with the AWB evidence because they ran out of funds.
You know all these bloddy hot shots - big time Animal welfare groups didnt even KNOW AWB were live exporters!
Whats my point?
My point is with their HUGE donations taken from the public they havent even bothered to do their homework.
Why is that important? Because if you dont know all the facts about something how can you possibly fix it?
When I first contacted AA and AL they simply would not believe us AWB were live exporters.

FIRST they requested we prove it.! For God Sake. So I did that but there still NO reply.

Yesterday I received a call from Dickie. Thanks so much Dickie. Dickie didnt want to be seen posting against our work to reopen plants in Australia.- Lovely Person.
Thats Ok Dickie. You can say it. As a matter of fact I wish they would all say it publicly instead of blacklisting our organisation and calling us animal killers.

Yabby Said
As these points are outside of the narrow little ideology
of the veggie brigade, no doubt they will not even
be considered.

So we'll just muddle along as we are now, with no satisfactory
outcomes and nothing changing.

pale replies
Yup- At least you got that much right Yabby= Only thing is I do not think I will waste much more time on it myself.
They want to STOP live Exports but they REFUSE to assist to reopen plants.
Nothing has changed.
Seem to be a money making racket to me that uses good people to run their rallies etc.
We love Animals enough to make SURE they are at least slaughtered here.
We will most likely withdraw after six years of their blind refusal to see it the way it is.
Regarding the veggie B - I totally agree with you Yabby.

"Hello! all this happens here in australia. So what happens if you manage to stop them being loaded on ships? Doesnt matter?" says PF

Your acknowledgement of the cruelty to animals in Australian abattoirs is noted, PF. However, for you to use this as good reason to continue exporting live animals reveals some type of twisted rationale or extreme ignorance on how animals are processed in the ME.

Prior to departing from National Forum, I am compelled to make mention of the lack of concern by other posters who clearly could not care less about the welfare of animals.

Only Pale and I have attempted to inform readers on this thread, about the methodical torture perpetrated on animals by the false prophets of greed. We have been, at all times, forced to endure the nasal monotones of the resident gnome who has a polemic against all other species.

I am conscious also of the many religious posters on this forum who have contributed zilch to any article which may have assisted in bringing about change to the lives of factory farmed animals.

These are the posters infiltrating most threads to convert the non-believers, demanding they prostrate themselves before their God, asking for forgiveness for their acts of impurity.

These are the ones who constantly hold polemics against those women who must choose abortion (God, there's already 6 billion 700 million of us), whilst gluttonising over Big Macs.

These are the ones who moralise over gay people whilst covertly influencing parliamentary illuminatis with glib tongues and money boxes, fully aware that political malfeasance does not happen in the absence of criminals!

Christians and others who stand for nothing .....enjoy your Christmas roasts, your cracklings, your pate de foi gras...for you profit nothing from your vain pretence.

"reveals some type of twisted rationale or extreme ignorance on how animals are processed in the ME."

You miss the point completely Dickie, but then I am not surprised.

At some point you and others are going to have to accept, that
reality does not go away, when you close your eyes and wish it
would. People are not going to all become vegetarians. People
will overwhelmingly continue to eat meat and to farm livestock.

Sometimes in life we have to compromise, accept that our personal
agenda is not going to happen, other options need examining. This
is clearly not going to happen in this industry, because of
the extreme blinkers that some posters wear as to reality.

Fact is, the live trade is not going to end tomorrow, with
farmers burying all their livestock in burial pits. Fact is,
many have put forward proposals to slaughter extra stock in
WA. They have been bogged down in labour issues, environmental
issues, etc. Thats just to slaughter the animals already around,
with the assistance of the live trade, which absorbs 3-4 million
animals.

I've put forward a realistic suggestion. If the Middle East is
your problem, and WA has no labour and taxes exporters to the
point where it all becomes unviable, why not open a major works
in Malaysia ? Its far closer then trucking sheep to NSW or
Victoria. On a modern boat, animals have space, food, water,
shelter. No different to feedlots, which exist all over Australia.

Humane handling and slaughter could happen, taking away your
Middle East fears. It would be a win-win for livestock, farmers,
meat buyers.

Would you or Pale consider it? Clearly not, by your response.
Your blinkers are on.

PF, being not only a person who cares for animals, but also
somebody who can think outside the square, accepted my point
that a trip to Malaysia on a boat would be far kinder then
a trip on a truck to NSW.

Its common sense, but common sense is severely lacking in
the animal libber debate

dickie, you and wendy are so keen to misinterpret whatever I say.

I agreed with Yabby on his point about the transport conditions on a ship compared with trucking them across this country. I think it is a very valid point.

I dont see the ships as the main problem, its what happens at the other end.

I could probably get all sorts of horrible footage of sheep being mistreated in the same manner as they did in the ME. It could be show on the 7.30 report and the whole world would think that all australians treat sheep that way when in fact it will just be the minority.

How biased are the photographers that go over there? Does anyone report on the good guys? No, theres no story in that.

New abattiors are just not going to happen, ships are still going to sail - fix what can be fixed and that is the way people in the ME treat animals. Constant badgering about how cruel it is gets no where. Find a solution that works.

Think what you like about my views on animal welfare - your opinion means nothing to me, i know what I do to make their lives better. Yes, actually doing something, not just talking about it or hurling insults at people that see things a bit differently to the way you and wendy do.

Dickie.

It was a honour listening to you by phone yesterday.

Your strenght your wisdom and courage enspired me.THANK YOU.

Ah, Yes, the Good Christian`s and Church Leaders.

The Anti abortion.

I agree abattoirs "are" cruel places and it doesnt matter how much we try to dress them up.

Who was it that said if all abattoirs had glass windows nobody would eat meat? Was it Yossie? I cant recall.

"However"- after saying that, Australia has better abattoirs than ME or Asia by miles- with plenty of room to improve.

I know you dont agree with me regarding plants.
Its either kill them here- or send them alive.

Lousey choice ah.

So dear dickie with the quick mind and kind heart- the sad thruth is we can only do what we can do.

We must offer an alternative that matches what the farmers and Indusrty are making now.

We will never stop anything from Intensive farming to the cruel live animal trade if we dont compete in the real world.

That is in the Industry Dickie.

We must get involved in the industry if we really will do anything to stop as much cruelty as possible.

Please do not sentence yourself to a life of misery mentally suffering because of what you cant do.

Do what you can do to improve things while you can.

I hope before I die I have at least started to divert live exports by introducing wealth Saudi and other contacts to Aussie grass roots farmers.

Then I can sit back and watch the low life mongrels like Elders AWB, Packers, Murdocks, Le Courts Landmark just to mention a few bleed to death like the blood that runs through their hands along with the BOTH Australian Governments.

Live Exports - An Act Of Gross injustice Carried out under a mockery of legality for the the gain of a few greedy men devoid of morals.

Yabby

I find your comments a little disingenuous.

What do you mean pale would never agree with working with Malaysia?

You know very well it was pale who kicked off the idea of working much more closely through JAKIM and establishing MOUs with Muslim Leaders.

Please see the WA site slaughtering in WA and sending whole carcuss to JAKIM!



from the rural news
http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/stories/s1096508.htm

A group of West Australian producers has formed a joint venture with Malaysia, to supply the world with halal meat products.

The Wheatbelt Growers Co-operative from Dowerin has signed an agreement with the Perak State Development Corporation to provide 100,000 sheep and 16,000 cattle each year.

Perak wants to become the world distributor of halal food to Muslim countries, with a potential market of 300 billion people.

Chief Minister Tajol Rosli says that'll provide a valuable alternative for Australia's live export trade.

"As it is now, halal food from Malaysia is recognized throughout the world.

"There are some countries that produce halal food, but it is not recognised, especially by the Middle East.

"If it's marketed as Australian, then the recognition by the Muslim countries would not be as good as if it is marketed from Malaysia."

Read the site again. Also the letter I posted above.

http://www.halakindmeats.com/

However Yabby

I only care about helping the animals and brining pour jobs back.
Pity both ALP and Howards, Nationals are too scared to stand up to the cruel live Export industry because of their rotten donations to political parts and their votes.

All in the name of Good Christians- of Course!

Tell you what Yabby- just to show I am entiley fair I will post what [I would be posting] if I were trying to stop people eating meat>
As you know everything do tell us - When did the last person die of Anthrax in Australia?
Which Industry was that person in?
Where they male or female?
Which State were they in?

Pale, you are not dealing with the question, but I didn't expect
you to. But at some point you have to face reality, or dream
on forever.

You clearly have a high regard for the Malaysians, but not for
the people in the Middle East.

Given that West Australians don't want or need your jobs,
given that small regional works in West Australia don't add up
financially, so will never happen, you have to look at what
is left.

If the Middle East is your major problem, so ok, there is no
good reason that animals can't be slaughtered and value added
in Malaysia. Its only across the pond from here in WA.

If ships are your problem, then the reality remains, they are
far better then long distance trucks, if they are good ships.
Animals actually gain weight on modern ships.

So transporting sheep to Malaysia, to a large, modern, humane
meatworks, makes perfect sense in terms of animal welfare,
availability of labour, possibility of value adding, tapping
into the halal market etc.

But your little mind can't get itself around that, as at heart
you are a veggie too. Thats the reality.

PF Yabby

I will tell you what the Muslim delegates said at a full meeting with well over 40 leaders attending.

That we CAN’T stop cruelty in ME.

Of course Yabby and PF think they know better than the Muslim leaders themselves.

Now why doesn’t that surprise me.

Free advice regarding PF. - Don’t bother. She simply trolls any animal threads looking for the opportunity to attack pale.
It’s not worth the effort.
Note all these experts on ME and Muslims.

Then ask yourself this. Who on this forum has worked with the Muslims?
Now I don’t mind telling you things have gone horribly wrong.

I don’t mind telling you along with the rest of the Australian Public that certain meetings in breech of our MOU were held without our knowledge'

I will also tell that instead of our original arrangements -to build more plants here - slaughter- and send whole carcass to Malaysia.-

A few leaders approached AQIS to slaughter without pre stunning behind our backs.

So we canned the MOU until we find others who can be trusted to work with a MOU.

Somebody one day may even thank us for taking a closer look at Halal and Muslim Leadership In Australia.

hey Dickie
Cant you imagine the drama if this country is ever attacked.

It would be really horrible until I guess you stopped to think some of these lots might be treated the same as the Animals they turned their backs on sending them to such treatment.

I do hope if it has to happen somebody reminds them that they saw nothing wrong with being held down and having their throats slit slowly.
I call it Cow Karma.
Mind you Yabbys as you say the worms wont mind how you left this earth.

"That we CAN’T stop cruelty in ME."

I know thats what you believe Pale, although I don't agree
with you. Never mind, so why not slaughter in Malaysia?
Its not the ME.

Nope, your attempts at constant name dropping don't impress
me, for IMHO you have so far achieved nothing, just talk.

I take people as I find them. So far PF has shown compassion
for animals, but also the ability to think rationally and
realistically. That is badly lacking on this thread and
is certainly lacking in the veggie movement.

Yup, its part of nature's cycle, that herbivores land up
being eaten by other species. Experiments where they wern't,
showed that they soon died of overpopulation and thus
starvation. But out of sight would be out of mind I guess,
certainly for some. You don't see them starving to death,
but they do, not a pretty sight.

The point remains, I've suggested a humane solution that
does not involve the ME. You refuse to think about it,
as you remain a veggie at heart. Ok so nothing will
change... You can only blame yourselves.

No Yabby
The bloody point of the matter it is you who have done nothing- except post on this forum and almost committing fraud by inferring you are involved with The Live animal Trade when I know your not.

Nor does the Industry appreciate your comments no matter how much you delude yourself otherwise.

I have even had calls from the Industry if you really want to know asking me who this goose Yabby is. I have NOT given your real name.

I told them we find you very helpful which raised no end of irritation much to our amusement.

Your so ignorant of what’s REALLY going on you are probably unaware that Malaysia are building a whole PORT just to use it as the gate way to the work for Halal.

Malaysia is very much at the heart. In fact it was US who started this turn around working with Amjad.

JAKIM IS! The hub. Make NO Mistake.

Now as we pushed for more involvement with Malaysia and JAKIM it should be clear even to YOU something’s gone astray.

The Australia president of AFIC Ikebal Patel and one other has done the dirty by approaching AQIS NOT to pre stun HERE in Australia.
I am sure you have heard about it.
They have gone for a quick easy buck to certify one of the more extreme Muslim buyers.

We will NOT work with them any longer BUT - Hey Guess What Other Muslims are happy to step in and strongly recommend ALL Animals are pre stunned.
So as I said Yabby - Whatever it takes.

First we now have to go back and challenge the Muslim Leadership of Australia.
No problem - It just takes time. AFIC are NOT recognized by ME Saudi anyway as certifiers. [Never were!]
WE were assisting them with that!. Too bad now they have shown they can not be trusted.
For them.
So now your suggesting YOU suggested working with Malaysia?
You’re a joke. You know very well you have copied what we have been doing for four years!

Pale, I have made it clear many times, that I am not involved with
the live trade. That does not mean that I don't understand the
issues. Most farmers would not even bother arguing with a heap
of veggies, as its usually fairly pointless, all reason flies
out the window.

What you refuse to examine, is the possibility of building
abattoirs in Malaysia and slaughtering Australian sheep there.
Its not the Middle East.

Yet it makes perfect sense as an option and can be done
humanely.

Its far better for the livestock, then trucking them
interstate, as happens now

Yabby, you must have the patience of a saint to spend so much time carefully explaining your views to someone that will not listen.

This forum is for debate, not just a general discussion for people all sharing exactly the same beliefs.

Without input from others with differing views, new ideas will not be formed and up to date information will not be shared.

Over the past 12 months Yabby has tried to explain live exports from a farmers point of view. We should be appreciating his honesty and the fact that he even bothers when clearly no one else that shares his opinion does.

Wendy you only see OLO as a platform for your agenda with some notion that a huge number of the population read your posts. If it wasnt for Yabby you and dickie would be here all alone stroking each others egos.

paleif, you might have to tell us

"When did the last person die of Anthrax in Australia?"

The last recorded case was in july 1998 when a Brisbane warehouse forklift driver contracted the disease, and went on to have a full recovery. What is your point?

paleif,
"Cant you imagine the drama if this country is ever attacked.

It would be really horrible until I guess you stopped to think some of these lots might be treated the same as the Animals they turned their backs on sending them to such treatment.

I do hope if it has to happen somebody reminds them that they saw nothing wrong with being held down and having their throats slit slowly."

And you think they'll treat you differently?

If your "prediction" holds true isn't that more reason to educate them on humane slaughter now, and not antagonise by withholding sheep.
They may even hold special angst for those known to have attempted to deprive them of fresh Australian sheep.

Maybe you have more to worry about than the rest of us.

Hi Dickie!
Looks to me this is yet another "stirring" thread from reading pales replies?

I was in Malaysia once upon-a-time,..nice place, good food, until I found out what they serve on the outskirts of Kualalumpur (I think I spelled that wrong)..
...in any event, story goes...they actually eat dogs over there, along with cats, they are quite partial to alsations, as this was what was found hanging in the meat fridges at the rear of one restaurants by animal protection groups...all cleverly skinned and wrapped in cheese cloth, frozen after being imported from god knows where, stolen perhaps from some possible dog lover who's dog went missing.

Yabby

Everybody knows we argue with Animals Australia and Animal Liberation to help reopen abattoirs here.

Havent you worked out yet? Whats REALLY going on between us and them?

Its political - Thats why the others refuse to help!
"Some are no more than a front for votes for labour.'

Its the members I feel sorry for who send donations THINKING they are helping the animals.

The greens have got it a hundred percent correct.- Hence this media R by Andrew that follows-



Subject: Election 07 DEMOCRATS MEDIA - Greens get it wrong on animal welfare Demcocrats set the record straight - Senator Bartlett + Greens Document

Media Statement
Wednesday 24 October 2007

SENATOR ANDREW BARTLETT
Queensland Democrat Senator


Greens get it wrong on animal welfare

Democrats set the record straight- bla bla.

No Andrew The Greens havent got it wrong! You and your little friend that worked with you all those years ago together in your political office mananged to fool many animal lovers but we are not so blind and nor are the greens.

More on you and your "special friend joined 'front for votes for ALP later.-"


I feel really sorry for the many members of groups that are mislead by people who were 'first established to gain votes for the ALP through another party.'
Ask yourself why nobody would really support Free Range Pig Farmers Lee ?
I mean REALLY why!

Rojo- Wrong I said the last person who "died" of Anthrax not lived.

BTW- What I said was I believe in Karma. Those people who dont do anything to stop the cruelty of live exports will one day pay by being killed in the same manner in the streets.

The enermy will be strong filled with nourishment from the blood of tormented animals and their hatred of the people who turned their backs on them.

Rojo if I could die for them - to save what we put millions of Animals through each year I would.
Unfortunately I am not Jesus Christ.
Church Leaders have a duty of care to Gods Creatures

Hello Spanky

Yup they are really the sensitive type in Malyasia.

Umm By the way - The Dogs you mentioned -You might not be aware Australia exports LIVE DOGS too.

Oh Of course only as pets according to AQIS.

Now I ask you would AQIS and our Government lie?

please see

http://www.aact.org.au/greyhounds.htm

BTW- Give my regards to Graham Y if your up late.

No Spanky - not stirring - just trying to tell it the way it is.

Just letting the public know that Animal Welfare groups in Australia are not ALL as the good public blindly think.

Do you know Spanky there are thousands of members of the public out there that have been misleasd for years.?

Ask yourself this-
If YOU were trying to stop Animals[ Any Animals] that are used for meat being sent Alive Overseas how would you suggest it was done.?

Thats right Spanky- killing them `here` IS the only answer.

So doesn`t it stand to reason its more than a little sus when you have powerful groups lobbying to stop us from acheiving that very thing? At the SAME TIME asking the public for donations to BAN LIVE EXPORTS.
Huh?

Years of taking from the good public and many members ONLY to NOT support killing them here?

So why show awful pictures to the public of intensive farms and live exports asking for money - only to behind the scene not support a programe to reopen plants here?
Huh?
With your type of logic at time you may be just the man to figure it out.

You call it stirring -but I call it telling it how it is.

It seems he Greens are doing the same.


Good On them for that.

We have been saying the same thing about these clicky little animal welfare groups with political agends for years.

Also Beleive it or NOT I dont think many have actually worked out they are being used for votes for ALP.

How dumb is that!

Conspiracy theories and constant attempts to ‘out’ someone – how does that help your cause. You have proven over and over again that you yourself cannot be trusted with a confidence. Anyone that speaks with you has your interpretation of the event splattered all over this forum.

As far as your condemnation of animal welfare groups, its clearly another case of because they don’t agree with you, they are in the wrong. They don’t believe in killing animals full stop so of course they are not going to support the building of more abattoirs. Right or wrong, that is their philosophy. You claim a close relationship with the RSPCA – I don’t see them proposing more plants.

The pictures of live exports and intensive farming you speak of do a great job because it is peoples ignorance of what is going on that allows these practices to continue. I don’t care what intensive industry it is, educate people and their will be change. Trouble with the animal welfare sites is though, they try so hard to tug at heart strings, they lose credibility by overstating the facts. It leaves room for industry to put the usual ‘extremist’ spin at what they claim.

Wendy, why do you constantly insist that free range farms need government support? Do you have some sort of welfare mentality? Free range farmers are doing just fine, quietly going about their own business and educating people as they go. The industry grows steadily in line with public awareness. In the end, people will force change with their wallets.

The best thing you could do wendy is to learn to shut your mouth and stop ridiculing those that are doing good work.

Hello Spanky
Yup they are really the sensitive type in Malyasia. Umm By the way - The Dogs you mentioned You might not be aware Australia exports LIVE DOGS too.
Oh Of course only as pets according to AQIS. Now I ask you would AQIS and our Government lie?

please see

http://www.aact.org.au/greyhounds.htm

BTW- Give my regards to Graham Y if your up late.

No Spanky - not stirring - just trying to tell it the way it is.

Just letting the public know that Animal Welfare groups in Australia are not ALL as the good public blindly think.

Do you know Spanky there are thousands of members of the public out there that have been misleasd for years.?

Ask yourself this-
If YOU were trying to stop Animals[ Any Animals] that are used for meat being sent Alive Overseas how would you suggest it was done.?

Thats right Spanky- killing them `here` IS the only answer.

So doesnt it stand to reason its more than a little sus when you have powerful groups lobbying to stop us from acheiving that when at the SAME TIME asking the public for donations to BAN LIVE EXPORTS.
Huh?

Years of taking from the good public and many members ONLY to NOT support killing them here?

So why show awful pictures to the public and ask formoney to help stop the cruelty of the live trade- only to behind the scene not support a programe to reopen plants here?
Huh?
With your twisted logic at time you may be just the man to figure it out.
you call it stirring but I call it telling it how it is.
It seem bob Brown is now going the same way.
Good On him for that.
I totally support him regarding his comments. We have been saying the same thing about these clicky little animal welfare groups with political agends for years.
Also Beleive it or NOT I dont think many have actually worked out they are being used for votes for ALP.
How dumb is that

Crikey Lee
The Democrats record stretches back as far as founder Don Chipp, who set up the long-running Senate Select Committee on Animal Welfare.
Trouble is Lee the idea was good but it turned out being veggie only to keep a lid on it.

RSPCA do support the reopening of abattoirs and have long stated the need to reopen abattoirs.
Although we work excusivly with QLD Branch.
Who was it that ran the ABC Blind Eye?. Who was it that did a five page spread in the Australian?

All those conspiracy theories raised on national TV and You accuse us! if we dare respond.

The difference between you and I Lee is we dont have one foot in each camp.

You send us a copy of a letter from them crying that they would NOT support Free Range Farmers.

Then you complain when we go to bat for the animals and expect us to hide your letter.

We are not going to sneak around.


Your absolutly right btw. They ARE against killing any types of animals.

Australia is a meat eating country Lee. Thats simple not practicle to ban the only group representing meat eaters.

They banned pale from joining WSPA BECAUSE we are involved in opening Abattoirs. We have that in writing.

Umm Ok but isnt the whole idea according to them for the live trade to be banned?
Gee well I wonder why in that case they see anybody opening abattoirs here to divert the live trade as the enermy?


Surley we are entiled to the right to respond to all that anti pale movement over the last six years.

Speaking of mentality if you cant see how silly it is to complain about live exports and intensive farms only to Black list people Group working to reopen plants.

Yes there ARE some good people working hard to help animals.


I think the Greens have put the truth out there and I appluade them for doing so.

Yoohoo Dickie. This is where we discuss animal welfare and animal
liberation, your pet topics. Clearly you have no respect for
other posters on this forum. Did you never learn manners?

This is also where I point out the many flaws in your claims.
If you post nonsense on OLO, I will point out why its nonsense.

Given that you are intent on shutting down the live trade and have
offered farmers no other viable solutions, its only fair enough
that I point out these things. You might not care about farmers
and even express your dislike for them. Others do care.

You should learn to play nicely. The vitriol dripping from your
posts shows little more then a lack of reasoning skills, thus
your frustration. Perhaps a cup of tea and a lie down would help :)

"Perhaps a cup of tea and a lie down would help."

Aw shucks Abby Yab. Me mum always warned me about lying down with strange girlies.

Hennyways, I knew you had your eye on me. That's why you keep stalking me, isn't it? So very slyly too.

Alas Abby Yab....... I'm already spoken for.

Now now, don't fret farmgirlie.......you still have the sheep - enjoy!

Yabby girl - sheep hater/"lover". You now have the nation of New Zealand to abuse, belittle and vehemently sneer at for its progressive review on the abuse of farmed animals.

Oh how you hate compassion and kindness. Return to the dark Yabby, scurry back to your subterranean abode. There is much plotting to be done with your fiscal tyrants of torture.

And in Australia, you join the other rock apes in the industry who have become catatonic. They snivel and grunt, beat their chests and cock their legs!

The millions of voices around the globe, in defence of tortured farmed animals, is being heard. Congratulations New Zealand. Suspensions and legislative review today.......hopefully reform tomorrow?

Goodness will prevail over evil and the day will arrive when the Marquis de Sades in this sick section of society will be hog-tied and placed in the stocks! Allelujah allelujah!
_____________________________________________________________________
New Zealand looks to end live exports 30.10.07 ABC News Today at 09:58:40 AM

By New Zealand correspondent Peter Lewis

New Zealand has banned live agricultural exports pending the outcome of a legislative review into the trade.

The move follows a report into the treatment and handling of livestock during shipment and slaughter overseas.

Although regular shipments of live sheep from New Zealand to the Middle East for slaughter ended some years ago, mainly breeding sheep and cattle are still exported live to markets such as China, Mexico and South America.

Veterinary Association president John McLaughlin has welcomed the ban and urged law changes to protect New Zealand's reputation and animal welfare.

"There were a significant number of disasters in the 90s. I think there's been a vast improvement in the way livestock is exported since then, I still think the welfare line's the bottom line in all this," he said.

Saudia Arabian importers have condemned the ban, saying it ignores important cultural issues.

http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/10/30/2074828.htm?section=justin

"Although regular shipments of live sheep from New Zealand to the Middle East for slaughter ended some years ago,"

Dickie dear, this answers your question. Live exports from NZ are
a non issue, as they don't export live anyhow. NZ happens to
have a 260 thousand tonne import quote into the EU, which Australia
does not have. So they can sell their lamb/mutton at high prices
there, which Australia cannot.

Meantime more and more boats are sourcing livestock from South
America, for the Middle East. Those countries are not spending
a cent on animal welfare, as Australia does. But then of course
you don't give a hoot about animals, if they are not Australian.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:T6Ptb9eVAIoJ:www.pacat.org/facts.htm+sheep+export+farms+how+many+numbers+australia&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_en

http://www.liveexport-indefensible.com/investigations/photos.php

. http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:sz0e41mclaMJ:sweetness-light.com/archive/the-eid-festival-around-the-world-graphic-photos+animal+torture+muslim+festivals&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_e

Isnt the slogan for one of the animal welfare groups "dont let out of sight be out of mind"?

Dickie do you honestly believe the way they treat animals will stop simply if australia bans live exports? Unless something is done to improve animal welfare in those countries, they will just find somewhere else to source them. We could end up making things worse for animals, but at least they wont be australian sheep. If we bury our heads in the sand deep enough it wont matter will it.

This reminds me of another intensive industry. They are going through a hard time and people seem to be jumping for joy that producers are exiting this industry in droves. What it really means is that we import the product instead - from countries with lower welfare standards than ours - but people seem to have that 'as long as it isnt happening in our own backyard' mentality. Condemn more animals overseas to a life in hell, it doesnt matter, only australian animals count, is that right?

Ah, as I thought.... You cannot answer my points of reason,
but then you never could. Best that you have that afternoon
nap and calm down :)

Pigfarmer and Sheep Hater

"Condemn more animals overseas to a life in hell, it doesnt matter, only australian animals count, is that right?"

Whilst I do not expect you to address my issues, as is typical, I shall pose a few questions.

Why did Australia appeal for clemency only for Australian citizen Van Tuong Nguyen and not the others who went to the firing squads or the gallows in Singapore in 2006?

Why did Australia not appeal for clemency for the 53 Americans executed in 2006?

Why hasn't Australia appealed for clemency for the 3,800 persons of other nationalities, executed worldwide in 2004 and like Australia's animals, many were innocent.

Why does Australia object to executions in other countries on behalf of Australians only?

Why did Australians only appeal to the US for the release of Australian, Hicks and not the Danes, Swedes, Belgians, Canadians, Malaysians, Russians, Somalians etc who were incarcerated at Guantanamo Bay?

Why do you greedy lot defend Australia's abominable record on animal cruelty whilst acknowledging the heinous and barbaric treatment of all animals in the countries to which you send your defenceless livestock?

Why do you continue to advise of the abject cruelty perpetrated on animals in those countries.

Are you not hypocrites?

Actually, your obtuseness is curious. Many of us in Australia are in fact appealing directly to other nations to enforce legislation for the humane treatment of its animals.

This is a crusade you continue to deny in your lust for maximum profits. However, we do not invite you to participate.

Your curriculum vitaes would condemn you where they would fail the police test which weeds out those who gleefully torture their own animals in a supposedly civilised and humane society.


http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:T6Ptb9eVAIoJ:www.pacat.org/facts.htm+sheep+export+farms+how+many+numbers+australia&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_en

http://www.liveexport-indefensible.com/investigations/photos.php

. http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:sz0e41mclaMJ:sweetness-light.com/archive/the-eid-festival-around-the-world-graphic-photos+animal+torture+muslim+festivals&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_

Ah Dickie, so you reason that because Australia was only concerned with David
Hicks, that you need not be concerned with the welfare of non Australian
Animals. How sweet of you! How caring of you!

Whistling in the wind Dickie, is not going to change a dam thing. Dreaming about
the impossible, is not going to work either.

So lets see who is actually getting some real results.

If you’d read this year’s MLA annual report, you would know that a total of
6 million$ is budgeted for animal welfare. 2.2 million$ in Australia and
3.8million$ overseas.

Amongst other projects, the rolling out of more restraining boxes in
Indonesia is continuing, 40 last year, another 30 this year.

Once that project is complete, it would make perfect sense to roll out
a similar project in the Middle East for sheep. That would make
a difference to all animals slaughtered, not just Australian animals.
Just yet another example of what farmers are doing to bring about
change, real on the ground stuff!

You on the other hand, write emails. Big deal!

The world is not about to turn veggie tomorrow Dickie, no matter
how many emails you write. Best to focus on the things that
can be changed, as farmers are doing, then there is progress.

The pragmatic realists are getting the results, the dreamers dreaming
as usual. We want progress and results Dickie, impossible dreams
remain impossible, get used to it.

Yabby said-
Dickie dear, this answers your question. Live exports from NZ are
a non issue, as they don't export live anyhow.
NZ happens to have a 260 thousand tonne import quote into the EU, which Australia does not have. So they can sell their lamb/mutton at high prices there, which Australia cannot.
pale replies.
Ah, but thank you for pointing that out to us Yabbs. Yup Yabby NZ manage very well without inflicting unnessary cruelty on Animals and Australia can learn a lot.
You say Yabby NZ has an import deal. What are Aussies so stupid they cant organise their own deals?

Yes thats correct. Do you know why ? Because NZ made a promise to faze out the cruel live trade and actually worked towards it.

They also wanted to keep the jobs in NZ and its worked well for them.
So - Whats wrong with Australia doing likewise?

Perhaps NZ is not quite as corrupt as Australia Governments and Industry.
Perhaps they actually care about jobs for their own. Maybe they even care about humane treatment of farm animals to be slaughtered.

They have several abattoirs all competing to buy stock.
A win win for farmers
Healthy competition is good for any business.
Every feedlot that the Australian Government assists in setting up for the cruel live trade via the foreign aid program is a diverion of jobs and vaule adding from our own economy and communities.

Dickies links are facts - not fiction and anybody actually looking at this footage and ingoring the barbaric cruelty is not much of a bloke- Or women for that matter.

May It please be them one day at the end of such treatment.

Personally I would be happy to help sponcer a few people in the trade to face the same as these poor innocent animals.

PF Said

Dickie do you honestly believe the way they treat animals will stop simply if australia bans live exports?
pale replies.
Perhaps you ought to stick with free range farming of pigs.
Despite your insistance that we were crowing about nothing eighteen months ago - You still cant buy Free Range Pork for Christmass.!

We have some difficulty following your logic.

You claim you have compassion for animals as a farmer yet you openly support the most barbaric trade of all- Live Animal Exports.?

Australian Animals which is Australia`s responsibilty stuffed on ships in over 50% degee heat sometimes as long as tweleve weeks!

Tell me why we should believe you care about Animals as you claim when you can support that?

You dont seem to have any loyalty to either the animals or those whom have tried to support you in the past.

Your way off Q if you dont know Australia IS the largest live exporters of Alive! Animals in the world and of COURSE if we stop others will follow by example.


AA put you on their web site. Thats was a huge step foward and we were delighted to see it.
Now you have a web page on Free Range pig farming with Verna on your site.
So in short knowing that Animals Australia The Humane Society NSW run by Verna and pale all! oppose the cruel live export trade you support it.
How embarresing for them and yourself!

Now you have a go at Dickie who has worked just as tirelsely to disclose to the public to utter horror of this trade.

Why do you even bother talking with Animal Welfare groups only to shame them and more importantly yourself by going against their priciples?
I mean why should we believe you really care about Animals with such mixed messages.

Yes PF if Australia STOPS the cruel live trade the rest will follow by example.
Thats a fact!

Yabby
How dare you try to pretend! that MLA give a SH about Animal Welfare or animals suffering.

MLA DRIVE the cruel live trade.
Sending Animals to countries where there is no pre stunning is NOT caring.
They block! people trying to kick off in the red meat trade. Austrade do likewise.
Farmers are the largest grant subs and relief getters in this country.
Poor farmers get bugger all help and the intensive connected get heaps.
How fair is that!. Oh all while you claim overseas are doing well from OUR hard earned tax funds!
.
Its 50 60 yabby. Oh sure they try to hide it by covering it up with another name but the results the same.

Where the funds comes from is US- The Australian hard working public who are lied to by the Government so they can do their duty trade deals.
Sending our raw materials off in its most valable form from any counrty is stupid.
However taking the hard earned Australians tax dollars to build OVERSEAS is criminal.
You seem to be proud of Landmark.
There names mud world wide.
Lets talk about their schools shall we?
David Jones of MLA told me he didnt know someone he was pictured standing next to at a meeting!
Anybody who is involved in cruelty to animals IS the scum of the earth.
May they be the first to have their throats cut when the enermy attacks Australia one day down the track.
Oh no pre stunning of course!

“Do you know why ? Because NZ made a promise to faze out the cruel live
trade and actually worked towards it.”

Bollocks Pale. It was part of an agreement reached when Britain joined the EU.
Australia were bad negotiators, its as simple as that. Your Mr Fletcher has made
every effort to increase the EU quota, no luck sorry.

“They also wanted to keep the jobs in NZ and its worked well for them.”

Pale, this is where you lose credibility. You continue with your mantra, when
you actually know the true story. You know that nobody in WA wants those
jobs, due to the mining boom. You would also know that 80% of Australians
drive imported cars, so if you really wanted jobs, you could force people to
drive locally made cars. Don’t single out agriculture to pick on.

“of COURSE if we stop others will follow by example”

More bollocks Pale. That’s just a claim by the veggie brigade, for which they
have no evidence. .

If you think that they so pay attention to Australian opinion, then you will
have no problem accepting that we can have a huge influence on animal
welfare in the Middle East, with our influence, which you deny. Not
very logical of you at all.

Clearly the Middle East is not even the issue here. I’ve suggested slaughtering
animals humanely in Malaysia, you will not even consider it.

AA, AL and Dickie, don’t even want them slaughtered in the first place.
They clearly don’t understand the laws of nature and what happens
when herbivores keep multiplying without a check in population.
It’s a sad story, it really is:

http://dieoff.org/page80.htm

Yabby
I have given you the benefit for a long time about some things you say because I THOUGHT you were simply misinformed by reading "some web pages"
However I now agree with Dickie that your attempt to post lies IS deliberate!
You know very well it was US who first held meetings with Malaysia Delegates to slaughter here and export the carcass as well us working to open co joint plants.
So DONT say we won’t even consider it.
You know full well pale working with Muslim Leaders from not only Australia but Malaysia put this to the Senate Enquiry into Animal Welfare.
You also know not RSPCA National Animals Australia Animal Liberation or anybody else supported it!
You also KNOW the we have been very public regarding Senator Andrew Bartlett’s lack of interest in this programme.
You know as well we often requested people from all these organisations and others including yourself to meet with ME and Malaysian contacts.
So your lies ARE deliberate.
Yes AA AL etc DONT support opening abattoirs DESPITE claiming they do.
Anybody who really cares WILL assist to open more abattoirs HERE in Australia.
Sorry Dickie but that IS the bottom line.
We are not trying to make anything of ourselves Yabby.
I personally would LOVE to retire but we KNOW if we do nobody in Animal Welfare will be actually dealing direct with Muslims to open here many more Halal Plants using pre stunning.
'
http://www.halakindmeats.com/submissions.html

paleif, I did ask you to post some details on the last Australian death from anthrax as I couldn't find one, not in the last 30 years anyway.

dickie, so because our govt doesn't seek clemency for foreigners somehow this justifies animal group inaction in the ME. We should only look after our own?

Dickie, have I at any time said I support live exports? I have asked the question on transport and wether or not the ships are the real issue, rather its what happens at the other end. Its unfortunate that the written word doesn’t always convey tone, I am asking genuinely. Your tone however is obvious, doesn’t matter what anyone else says, you have no intention of either listening or answering.

As for you pale, who cares what you have to say, your only purpose here is to try and damage reputations of good people. You have no idea what your talking about and posts are just rubbish most of the time. You only do damage to your own cause, how pitiful.

Pigfarmer

That's a bit rich. Which question of yours did I fail to answer? I raised 8 questions in my last post and you failed to respond to any.

A debate generally has 2 sides. "For" and "Against." Which side are you on, PF? The "Prophets of Greed" or the "Moral Status of Animals?"

It is not possible to have a leg in both camps, PF. Only the corrupt would endeavour to vascillate.

Rojo, your comprehension of the written word is poor. Re-read my post. If you have only come here to pick a fight, I suggest you find a base in which to raise a valid argument.

"Dickie dear, this answers your question. Live exports from NZ are
a non issue, as they don't export live anyhow."

And how is that Pinocchio nose of yours, Yabby?

And you, the sage of all matters known to God, man and the billious trade in live exports.

Or do you simply enjoy your role as the resident ignoramus?

Live exports out of NZ have continued right up to the recent suspension.

New Zealand has now suspended exports of live animals for slaughter overseas, amid ETHICAL concerns. I recommend you seek help for your repugnant interpretation of the word, "ethical" Yabby.

An additional NZ company also recently applied to export live animals to the ME for the Hajj festivals.

There you go girlie. Why don't you join your partners-in-crime in the ME to participate in the celebrations? We all know you enjoy a bit of S&M and when you get a lather up, you'll be able to assist in the Rene Descarte's system of wholesale animal slaughter.

And besides, I'm certain your absence will enable your poor little Baa Baas to rest up a little!

http://sweetness-light.com/archive/the-beautifl-festival-of-ashura-warning-graphic-photos

“I’ve suggested slaughtering
animals humanely in Malaysia, you will not even consider it.”

Pale, above is what I wrote. Now you accuse me of dishonesty.

Are you having yet another scatterbrain moment perhaps?

Now read what I wrote really slowly, so that it sinks in.

Then note the word * SLAUGHTERING*

Does it sink in now? Just a little bit? When did you suggest
SLAUGHTERING animals humanely in Malaysia?

Unlike you or Dickie, I am not driven by blind ideology, without
flexibility.

Rational, pragmatic people like myself, examine all possible
options and all the facts involved.

Fact is, modern boat transport is far kinder to livestock then
crammed on trucks to the Eastern States.

Fact is, if its done properly, they gain weight and its no more
then a floating feedlot.

Fact is, we have neither slaughter capacity, nor labour in WA,
to slaughter sheep here, so SLAUGHTER in Malaysia could be
a perfectly viable option.

Pale, I give you credit that you at least accept that we humans will
continue to eat meat.

Organisations such as AA AL etc, clearly have their heads in the sand
over this one.

They will not even accept that free range farming in general, including
meat production, is a far kinder option then what nature dishes out,
when overcrowded herbivores starve to death.

Yet the evidence is clear:

http://dieoff.org/page80.htm

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:T6Ptb9eVAIoJ:www.pacat.org/facts.htm+sheep+export+farms+how+many+numbers+australia&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_en

http://www.liveexport-indefensible.com/investigations/photos.php

. http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:sz0e41mclaMJ:sweetness-light.com/archive/the-eid-festival-around-the-world-graphic-photos+animal+torture+muslim+festivals&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_

New URL:

http://nqr.farmonline.com.au/news_daily.asp?ag_id=46550

Ok dickie, about your eight questions.
The first five are completely off topic and irrelevant to this conversation and I have no interest in answering them.
Q6. I don’t send livestock overseas.
Q7 Read the answer to Q6
Q8 You were referring to me? I don’t think so.

I am offended that you accuse me of torturing animals, what an outright lie. Back that up with some facts or keep your bitter, twisted comments to yourself. You, like that other fool, have no interest in finding real answers for the welfare of animals, you are only here for an argument and, for some unfathomable reason, to condemn people that are doing what they can to really change conditions for farm animals.

A foot in both camps dickie? Rubbish. I can tell you were you need a good foot ...

Your dreams of a vegetarian world are just that, dreams. You despise anyone that farms animals, the good and the bad. You would rather force these animals into extinction than have them consumed by humans. Your 'my way or the highway' attitude achieves nothing more than moving the problem to someone elses doorstep. Out of sight, out of mind - that makes it alright in dickies narrow view.

Pig Farmer

Your hysterical response clearly displays your obsession to defend an industry which is morally and ethically repugnant.

Blunder No 1: I am not a vegetarian

Blunder No 2: "You would rather force these animals into extinction."

Your presumption is preposterous and unworthy of comment.

Blunder No 3: You challenged me on a philosophical issue and I responded to that issue in questions 1-5. Your obtuseness, coupled with your reluctance to face the truth, prevents you from correctly analysing the contents.

Blunder No 4: "You, like that other fool, have no interest in finding real answers for the welfare of animals,"

PALE and I and millions of others already have the answer. That is to cease breeding animals for live export.

My sole intent is to lobby to prohibit live exports and nothing else. What you do after I have achieved that goal is entirely up to you.

However, I do not find debating with sadistic cretins enjoyable and particularly with those who invert the truth, dwell in the realms of denial and promote the barbaric practices perpetrated daily on defenceless animals.

Blunder No 5: "to condemn people that are doing what they can to really change conditions for farm animals."

We are those people Pigfarmer. We work consistently while you condone and endorse cruelty since you argue for live exports. You then promote yourself as a "free range" pig grower. I was impressed for a wee while. I have now concluded that your fiscal agenda has over-ridden any sense of morality that I wrongly perceived you possessed.

Blunder No 6: "A foot in both camps dickie? Rubbish. I can tell you were (sic) you need a good foot ..."

How very gracious of you Pigfarmer. Nevertheless, it is an aptly phrased threat from a hypocritical, unevolved housefrau, or would that be pigfrau?

New URL:
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/the-beautifl-festival-of-ashura-warning-graphic-photos

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:T6Ptb9eVAIoJ:www.pacat.org/facts.htm+sheep+export+farms+how+many+numbers+australia&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_en

http://www.liveexport-indefensible.com/investigations/photos.php

. http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:sz0e41mclaMJ:sweetness-light.com/archive/the-eid-festival-around-the-world-graphic-photos+animal+torture+muslim+festivals&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_

New URL:

http://nqr.farmonline.com.au/news_daily.asp?ag_id=4655

Yabby
I have to give Rojo`s info on Anthrax first as its good manners-

Rojo fyi- Vetinary Newsletter. To Members and Departmental staff. Infectious Diseases Unit Depertment of Human Services.
A Case Of Human Anthrax was identified in Victoria through survellience of knackery workers who have been exposed to infected cattle. The outbreak in cattle has effected 38 hers in @@@@@@@@ and Central Areas.
The human case was a old male who died. Public health measures are in place to prevent further human cases.
Meat from these carcasses had already been sold. Local Drs were advised of theoutbreak, provided with a fact sheet, and advised what steps to take .
Some of the meat was sent for local slaughter and others from the areas involved were sent to the live animal trade.
Case 2002 in QLD Anthrax
10 Animals died.
Southeast qld 1997
Rojo there are many examples and it requires a vigourous programe. Spourns last forever.
If I were protesting people eating meat I would certainly use some of these many examples.
However I am not against meat eaters simply because it actually backfires on the animals - So subject closed.
Yabby said
I’ve suggested slaughtering
animals humanely in Malaysia, you will not even consider it.
pale replies. Yabby you know DARN well I asked you to introduce some Malaysian Delegates to WA farmers and some Saudis . So what do you MEAN I would even consider it??
Read! again the sub from Muslim Leaders and HKM to the Animal Welfare Senate Enquiry.
Now if you are saying AA and Al dont support it- I agree but we started it. We kicked it off.
UNTIL certain people in AFIC did the dirty.
Thats ok - Theres plenty of good muslim people and Councils that will put their hand up to be new leaders.
Plenty Of Muslim both here and overseas ARE supporting slaughter here AND using pre stunning too.
AFIC were never acknowledged by Saudi or JAKIM anyway.
We will fight to have animals slaughtered HERE and whole carcuss sent to Maylasia- and on to ME through JAKIM.

"Live exports out of NZ have continued right up to the recent suspension."

Bollocks Dickie. New Zealand exported zilch animals for slaughter
last year. In fact the last time they sent sheep to Saudi
Arabia was 2003, then only a few. They simply don't need the
market, with their huge EU quota. So your ethics argument
is once again bollocks.

In fact it would be foolish to put sheep on a boat, when the
price received in the EU is higher then the live trade price.

The difference is so large, that a lamb slaughtered in NZ at
15 kg carcass weight, would be worth NZ 4.50 a kg to the farmer.
The same lamb in WA AU$ 1.50 a kg, IF there is slaughter space,
which there isn't. The first to admit that we need the live
trade, are local meat works.

Your obsession with the live trade is your problem, however irrational.
Religious extremists are not rational either,
just obsessed.

If you wanted to ban the live trade, you would have to ban all
feedlots, for you can't give me a reason why a feedlot that floats
is so different from one that doesent. Some of those new boats
in fact have far better conditions then most Aussie feedlots.

But continue to call me names and insults, it gets it off your
chest. Irrational rants are fairly common on OLO, when people
have no rational arguments to make.

Clearly its not animals that you care about, or you would assist
us to improve things for Midde East animals. Clearly you can't
be bothered.

Take a breath dickie or you may choke on your overuse of vomitile language.

Hmmmm... interesting, I mentioned a fool and you immediately assumed it was PALE.

I used to think you were someone with a little integrity, but i have to concede with the general opinion of this forum - dickie by name, dick ... by nature.

PF
Why bag a person who has the support of ALL Animal Welfare Groups.

Has it not occured to you Dickie would most likely support your cause for Free Range Pig Farming in prefernce to Intensive Pig farming.
PF said-
You would rather force these animals into extinction than have them consumed by humans.

pale replies-

Huh? Are you for real ? I wouldnt miss a heart beat if I could do just that. I would have thought that much would be clear even to you.
God just imagine no more Animals for live exports and Intensive Farming- NO MORE SUFFERING. Where do we sign up for that!

Another thing - Why do you have to be so crude? You have always taken your insults too far and attacked people personally.
Now your doing it it Dickie.
Look at Yabby- He manages to get everybody upset and offside without being down right crude.

Dickie- Maybe Yabby has the Answer in sorts. Let NZ sort Australia out as we seem too stupid and corrupt to do it ourselves.

Just remember this- The Industry will drive the trade so if anybody is REALLY interested to improve conditions for Animals they MUST get involved in the Industry.

It has to be a big operation because a few small time plants will be sqeezed out. We have to hit hard and play rouge like the live exporters do.

We have to aim to hurt and destroy these evil bastards.

We need to name names. People involved. Shame them!

Every Animal Slaughtered here is An Animal Saved from the cruel live trade.
If people are not prepaired to help the animals by demanding they are killed here then Yabbys right in so much as its just dreams.

We need to do more than lobby the Government and Industry Dickie. They are not listening.
We need to reopen plants dealing direct with people from overseas. We need to build our own contacts free from Government and MLA and Austrade etc.

-Support the Greens.

"That is to cease breeding animals for live export.
My sole intent is to lobby to prohibit live exports and nothing else. What you do after I have achieved that goal is entirely up to you."

What Dickie is basically saying here, is that she wants to force
the closure of half of the West Australian sheep industry, based
on her obsession.

She clearly has no concerns for those thousands of farming families.
She clearly has no concerns about improving animal welfare in the
Middle East. Just send Aussie farmers broke, thats fine it seems,
it will solve everything. Then she claims to be compassionate and
caring. Bollocks!

Yelling out insults on OLO is her justification. Never mind any
reasoning skills, never mind the reality of the situation in Western
Australia regarding labour, present attempts to build various
plants, never mind anything. Her obsession is all that matters here.
Shame on you Dickie. You should be ashamed of yourself.

At least Pale, for all their faults, have enough understanding of
reality to think beyond that. You clearly cannot and will not

"Live exports out of NZ have continued right up to the recent suspension," said Dickie.

(1) October 2007:

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22672981-5005961,00.html

"A spokeswoman for New Zealand's Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry said only one company currently exports live animals for meat from New Zealand.

"That company sends sheep to Japan to be fattened ahead of eventual slaughter. Because the animals are not killed immediately, it's uncertain if the shipments will be stopped, the spokeswoman said."

"She said New Zealand's controversial live export of sheep to the Middle East last occurred in 2002."

(2) Excerpt - October 2007 (slightly conflicting):

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/2007/s2075270.htm

New Zealand has banned live exports pending the outcome of a legislative review into the trade.

It follows a report into the treatment and handling of livestock during their shipment and slaughter overseas.

Regular shipments of live sheep to the Middle East ended some years ago, with mainly breed sheep and cattle still sent to markets including China, Mexico and South America.

John McLaughlin from the Veterinary Association has welcomed the ban.

"I still think the welfare line is the bottom line in all this".

Yabby's scornful retort:-

"Bollocks Dickie. New Zealand exported zilch animals for slaughter
last year. In fact the last time they sent sheep to Saudi
Arabia was 2003, then only a few. They simply don't need the
market, with their huge EU quota. So your ethics argument
is once again bollocks."

By joves, Yabby. You are a blunderbuss! And "bollocks" to you too!

All the information you boasted about was raised to deceive. Simply made up as you went along, callously insisting that the animals enjoy a wonderful sea voyage. You earn the title for our resident Rene Descartes, unopposed!

You see Yabby, we provide facts to the best of our ability. You on the otherhand will stoop very low to belittle your opponents.

Let's face it, Yabby. You're a lightweight hanging in with the big boys hoping for small change. Pretty pathetic eh?

New URL:
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/the-beautifl-festival-of-ashura-warning-graphic-photos

. http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:sz0e41mclaMJ:sweetness-light.com/archive/the-eid-festival-around-the-world-graphic-photos+animal+torture+muslim+festivals&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_

"Because the animals are not killed immediately, it's uncertain if the shipments will be stopped, the spokeswoman said." "

Hehe Dickie, did they give you the names of the sheep that went
to Japan?

Perhaps you should read the NZ Herald sometime.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/topic/story.cfm?c_id=193&objectid=10471934

Virtually zilch sheep were exported for meat from NZ last year,
apart from Friedrich and Hilda of course :) Oops. I forgot them.

Google the SPCA claim, all they talk about is NZ's reputation.

So unlike Australia, NZ does not export live sheep and have now
banned what they don't do and don't need to do.

Are you really such a sucker, or do you just want more propaganda
for your obsession?

Thats the fun of debating with you Dickie. You get so angry that
you can't think straight and when you can't think straight, you make
one stupid mistake after the other.

Perhaps you need that course in emotional intelligence after all :)

"Why bag a person who has the support of ALL Animal Welfare Groups.

Has it not occured to you Dickie would most likely support your cause for Free Range Pig Farming in prefernce to Intensive Pig farming."

Enlighten us pale. You and dickie think you know who I am, you both think you know Yabby intimately, we all know who pale is, dickie is the only one spitting venon from behind a veil.

PF
Well look whos telling Porkies now ah. Wasnt so long ago you posted about your trip to visit our old Yabbs with promises to do it again soon.

Regargless of whom people are nothing is wrong with people bar their intention.


Dickie NZ used to be huge in the live Animal trade. Second only to Australia who shamefully are the largest dealers in sending animals alive in the world.
However NZ did what we are asking everybody else here to help us do- They got stuck into plenty of new Abattoirs and reopening old abattoirs as well.
They employed heaps of Halal Slaughtermen.
I am in your camp Dickie. I am on your side and the Animals side.
I just wish ALL Animal Welfare Groups would get involved in doing just what NZ did.

There is absolutly no reason why many of these plants can not be run through a NFP organisation.- None. Especially when its clear their is such a great oprtunity to tapp into several ministers and funding such as the Federal and State Ministers for empoyment, health Aboriginal affairs just to mention a few.
Going one step futher there is NO reason why the Aboriginal people cant be set up to build new ships to carry meat and vegetable and small goods.
Australian owned ships carrying Australia brand products is what we need.
We love Animals as much as the average person but we understand people get tired of hearing about the cruelty and misery of the live trade instead of "how we are going to FIX IT?."
A little Secret
A gentleman who slaughterd in Oz and NZ by the name of Mr Jim Dwyer who is now into his 80s and resides on the Gold Coast. He was very much involved in Abattoirs and sending stock alive to ME- Until he went there himself.
He spoke along with three other people about the Live Trade to the then NZ Prime Mininster.
He predicted also what the end result would be for a short sited Australia-

"Live exports out of NZ have continued right up to the recent suspensions," said Dickie

I assumed the above contents of that statement contained a degree of clarity.

No so for our neurologically defective Yabby. The following is his response, and his endeavours to manipulate the contents of the statement (apologies for the reiteration)

"Bollocks Dickie. New Zealand exported zilch animals for slaughter
last year. In fact the last time they sent sheep to Saudi
Arabia was 2003, then only a few. They simply don't need the
market, with their huge EU quota. So your ethics argument
is once again bollocks."

1) FACT: Dickie's statement referred to "live exports" only. It made no reference to animals for slaughter, sheep or exports to Saudia Arabia. Yabby's intellectual defects become more apparent.

"In fact it would be foolish to put sheep on a boat, when the
price received in the EU is higher then the live trade price" says resident sociopath, Yabby.

2) FACT: A Saudi owner was preparing for the export of 100,000 live sheep out of New Zealand when this week's suspension occurred.

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/071030/3/28do.html

3) FACT: In April of this year, NZ exported 35,000 live sheep to Mexico.

http://www.nzfarmersweekly.co.nz/article/6830.html

4) FACT: While New Zealand's live animal exports have somewhat diminished (thankfully), they have continued to export live deer, goats and cattle for slaughter. Last year saw New Zealand's largest exports ever for live deer.

5) FACT: NZ also exports live rodents (for experimental research to Japan), live marsupials and ferrets.

And the Yabbys continue to strut among us under a mask of "sanity." The "rogue network of liars" - "the subterranean rodents" who scuttle from their burrows to attack when they fear that ordinary folk may become sufficiently informed or motivated to seek the truth about the ships of shame.

Can we now look forward to New Zealand working towards abolishing the retardation of decency and morality that has operated under the guise of "Trade" and which ignominiously continues to operate in Australia by those with impeded, moral development?

Dickie, what is your view of the live export of pigs? You mention every other animal including rodents, but not pigs.

Is it because conditions on board a ship so closely mimic those in an intensive production facility that they dont rate a mention?

“"Live exports out of NZ have continued right up to the recent suspensions," said Dickie
”I assumed the above contents of that statement contained a degree of clarity.”

Nope Dickie, your statement contained a degree of propaganda which was
in fact false.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/topic/story.cfm?c_id=193&objectid=10471934

As the Herald article makes clear, virtually zilch animals were exported for
slaughter last year, so it’s a non issue.

Yes NZ animals, including sheep, were exported for breeding, to the value
of 49 million $, that is going to continue, nothing changes,
so your above statement is in fact wrong.

To be clear and accurate, your statement should have noted that live
exports from NZ will continue, but animals exported for slaughter,
of which there were virtually none last year, will cease. Big difference!

Fact is that NZ lamb production is dropping, as farmers bail out of
lambs and convert to intensive dairy farming, to fill orders from China,
as demand for dairy products is skyrocketing. What was that you said
about ethics? Hehe

"So unlike Australia, NZ does not export live sheep and have now
banned what they don't do and don't need to do.

"Are you really such a sucker, or do you just want more propaganda
for your obsession?

"Thats the fun of debating with you Dickie. You get so angry that
you can't think straight and when you can't think straight, you make
one stupid mistake after the other," says Manuel alias Yabby

Ooohhh.....ha ha ha. More of your Fawlty Towers, Manuel? Ooh... now now, Manuel, keep both hands on the keyboard whilst you type your fantasies. Oohhh wah....... tsk tsk, naughty, rude boy Manuel. Help......Basil.......help.. is anybody there....agh.......!

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/071030/3/28do.html

http://www.nzfarmersweekly.co.nz/article/6830.html

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/2007/s2070137.htm

New URL:
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/the-beautifl-festival-of-ashura-warning-graphic-photos

. http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:sz0e41mclaMJ:sweetness-light.com/archive/the-eid-festival-around-the-world-graphic-photos+animal+torture+muslim+festivals&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_

PF

I love pigs. They are highly intelligent. However, it wouldn't matter if they weren't.

It is pointless asking those who care about animals if they like a specific species. They are all equal.

Rodents are OK also with the exception of those who swagger and sneak about on 2 legs!

This is affection is baffling to the intensive farming industry who are incapable of comprehending why others regard all species as equal and as sentient beings.

It is also galling when Mr Malcolm Turnbull, in his quest for popularity, publicly declares:

"Australia objects to the Japanese whaling fleet because we love the animal." Such hypocrisy from our "honourable" leaders!

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:qbxBgFcOP4EJ:webdiary.com.au/cms/%3Fq%3Dnode/1367/print+abattoirs+jobs+lost+live+sheep+exports&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=au&lr=lang_en

"I do however as a farmer myself have some sympathy for those among us who find themselves economic hostages to a trade that the majority of Australians find abhorrent.

"But we too must share some of the tarnish, for our industry leaders have not been pro-active in the past 25 years in seeking to have our livestock slaughtered in Australia.

"Instead we have seen abattoirs close all over the country, with long distances now being travelled by animals to the remaining meatworks, at ever increasing cost to the animals the consumers, and to the farmers.

"We, through our leaders’ failure, also failed to seize the day.

"It was not just animal liberationalists who first demonstrated in the 1980s against the live export trade.

"They were joined by worried meatworkers: a strange alliance. The live export industry simply cannot talk of jobs gained without acknowledging jobs lost and exported.

"The development of the chilled meat trade would have not only retained jobs in Australia, it would have created more.

"The live export industry is in heavy seas and the pressure on it from the animal welfare movement will continue to grow, as will the cost of trying to defend it.

"But it is never too late to change. Other industries have had to, and I personally will not be sorry to see the last livestock ship sent to the scrap yard. In that I know I am not alone."

The live export of pigs seems to go unnoticed. Its not an issue I had planned to bring up because they are exported as breeding stock and not for slaughter. But, if you want ALL live trade stopped, they become relevant.

Most of the pigs sent overseas are trucked all the way from the Darling Downs in QLD. What a horrendous journey that would be for those animals. They come from intensive farms so the trip would be especially stessful. My biggest concern for them is the actually road trip, it would have to be longer and more uncomfortable than the 5 days they spend on a ship.

These pigs are supposedly treated like first class travellers, probably because of their high value and the fact that the recieving country also appreciates them as such.

Now, you could say end live exports and there wouldnt be a reason to truck them all that way. But, I am still trying to make the point that you insist on misinterpreting: are the ships the real problem, or is it the destination?

Honestly, I see their road trip as far more cruel than the sea voyage.

Yes, there have been, and still are, welfare issues on ships, but they can be sorted with enough pressure. I just think it makes more sense to ban exports to countries with such poor animal welfare standards and low regard for life. Break it down into a lot of small victories instead of settling for nothing less than complete abolition straight up.

Exporting only to countries that have equal or higher welfare standards than our own. That seems a good place to start, and far more likely to happen in the short term. If that happened, wouldnt the industry eventually crumble anyway?

We didnt want to post Dickie- because the last two posts from PF and yourself were the best comments regarding Welfare to Animals for a long time.
However we didnt want a farmer to think Animal Welfare people were not interested in their comments either.

All Animal Groups can learn a lot through real farmers with real ideas.
Uh Sorry Yabbs you havent made the grade yet but keep trying for your new plants to be opended then I reckon we might listen a bit more to you as well.

Dickie
Perhaps you are busy moving.

The comments from PF regarding practicle steps are "very helpful" indeed.

There are some good ideas and approaches in that post.

Why not take advise from PF Dickie to stop the pigs travelling so far before slaughter?

PF wont work with us but might you.

It would be a step in the right direction for you to work with a Free Range Farmer Dickie and it certainly gives Animal Welfare people more clout.

We thought there were several plants in NSW and especially some gas plants for pigs. So we were not aware they were transported to QLD for slaughter.

We have heard conflicting reports re the gas for pigs.

Some say its much kinder. Others say its awful as they scream gasing for breath and panic because they can no longer breath.

Would be interested in any comments on that.
Re shipping pigs overseas for breeding-= Is it for breeding? or is it a ploy for intensive farming?
Dont see why they cant use artifical EX for breeding.

With Christmass coming up we have tried to organisaise free range pork and turkey for people with "no success."

Pehaps you could work together on that one.
Just an idea Dickie.
Its a good time to start the people thinking about where they buy their pork and other meats with Christmass just around the corner.

I will re post PFs comments after this.
I will [probably get my head bitten off] but for the animals its worth it.

PF Said
The live export of pigs seems to go unnoticed.

Most of the pigs sent overseas are trucked all the way from the Darling Downs in QLD. What a horrendous journey that would be for those animals. They come from intensive farms so the trip would be especially stessful.

These pigs are supposedly treated like first class travellers, probably because of their high value and the fact that the recieving country also appreciates them as such.

Now, you could say end live exports and there wouldnt be a reason to truck them all that way. But, I am still trying to make the point that you insist on misinterpreting: are the ships the real problem, or is it the destination?

I just think it makes more sense to ban exports to countries with such poor animal welfare standards and low regard for life. Break it down into a lot of small victories instead of settling for nothing less than complete abolition straight up.

Exporting only to countries that have equal or higher welfare standards than our own. That seems a good place to start, and far more likely to happen in the short term. If that happened, wouldnt the industry eventually crumble anyway?
Posted by PF, Friday, 2 November 2007 6:25:21 AM

Dickie why not get AA and others to launch a protest before christmass regarding pigs travelling to QLD oin trucks?
Babe was pretty popular with the public.
What Animal Welfare groups REALLY need is the faces of free range farmers on their promotions.
People WILL listen to the farmers themselves- Far more than JUST Animal Welfare Groups.
Mean time we will ask the RSPCA QLD to make a comment or M R on the issue .
Why not lobby KR Darling Downs? The time is right?
I hope yourself and PF can work together on this one.
It would be really good dickie

Pigs are sent from QLD to ports in WA, not to qld for slaughter.

“Re shipping pigs overseas for breeding-= Is it for breeding? or is it a ploy for intensive farming?”

The are raised intensively and no doubt will continue to be at their destination.

“Dont see why they cant use artifical EX for breeding.”

Not quite sure what the EX means, but they are exporting sows.

Free range xmas hams will be hard to find this year, demand is huge. Next year will be a different story I hope.

It is not my intention to turn this thread into a discussion on pigs. I used them as a means to get my point across. ( I hope)

Pf
No no We are happy to talk about pigs being sent to live exports and of course the long trips in trucks here in Australia.
So despite being told by a person in RSPCA to shut up about pigs we are very interested and wont shut up.
An Animal is an Animal and we are very interested to hear about these pigs going from QLD to WA. We often post about horses and cattle but your right- Pigs go live too. Did you know that Dickie?
I must addmitt we were caught out thinking because there was a ban on imports we didnt export them either.
Funny how thats not given a higher profile. Dickie perhaps we can work on that as well ?

PF If you have more info we would welcome it.
The only two shops on the gold Coast who sold free range pork and turkeys closed down.
Over a hundred people have been into Woolworths etcdemading free range Pork.
Did everybody the ABC news tonight?
I missed it but my sister called and told us to watch landline tomorrow at 12pm.
Its apparently a debate between Peter McGuaran and ALP.

We were told second hand the ALP were now saying if the Australian Public want live exports banned they would look at it.

I was speaking to their advisor over the last three weeks and he said- Wait- you might be surprised.
Of course I though he was just telling me more porkies like the Government.


It would make a wonderful difference to this country if they teach migrants how to free range farm and reopen abattoirs.

Dickie lets get some footage of the pigs being transported. We are in QLD and your in WA .
What do you say.?

They MUST open more plants and why are we sending live pigs to anywhere anyway?
Surley its more money and kinder to slaughter close to the area they come from and send the meat in a box.

Thank You for this vaulable information regarding pigs being sent on live exports.

Greetings friends and foes

And may the animal kingdom and all its creatures smile kindly upon you.

I've not "carked" it and no, I've not been assassinated.

I shall be back..........yes indeed, .........I shall return!

Dickie,
Greetings again 'ol friend!

Where 'art thou off to?

Pronto Spanky!

How goes it my friend?

Ah......the distractions of moving from a regional area to the city!!

Here goes a second endeavour to access this thread. The initial attempt, subsequent to penning all of 420 words, saw me delete the entire post when reducing the contents. Drat!!

PF, your information was much appreciated. I was unaware that pigs are exported or that they are transported by road from Qld to WA. This is most shocking. Are the pigs unloaded along the way for some respite?

I am totally opposed to live animal exports and the resultant destinations. No animal should be subjected to this legalised savagery.

However, the hooligans, strutting our corridors of parliament will procrastinate on any moral or ethical issue regarding fiscal policies therefore, I confess I reluctantly endorse your splendid recommendation that for the interim period, animals are exported only to Western nations which have similar welfare laws to ours.

Sadly, I am not aware of any nation that properly respects the rights of farmed species (particularly Australia) but your suggestion may at least attract attention from our "venerable" leaders who collude with the network of liars in this industry.

"The idea that the Labor Party would cave in to an organised extremist campaign and stop the trade is frightening ... that you would cave in to that instead of meet the challenge, educate the general public," says McGauran.

McGauran said he completely supported the live export industry and it would continue under a Coalition Government. (Rodent!)

"(Australia) operates the world's best practice," he said. (He must be on something?)

"I think we've got to stop apologising for it - we lead the world." (Sadist!)

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22700460-1702,00.html

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/2007/s2070137.htm

And so the porcine resembling McGauran (apologies to our pig friends) continues with his cunning patholgical attempts to thwart truth and justice, despite the glaringly heinous evidence accumulated over some 25 years.

Can we but pray that Senator Kerry OBrien will accept that the live animal exports' trade is truly morally repugnant?

McGauran didn’t win any votes with his pompous attitude during his interview on Landline yesterday.

His quote “I think we've got to stop apologising for it” “We lead the world” “it is an industry to be proud of” will only serve to lose even more votes at the next election. Then again, are any of us really expecting to see McGauran as Minister of Agriculture after that date?

Kerry O’Brien on the other hand at least accepts that there is public outcry and that it can no longer be ignored. I do note however, that he is talking along the same lines, ships are not necessary the problem, it’s the destination. If I was running a campaign on this issue, I would certainly be making the most of this.

Small but significant steps dickie, and before you know it the erosion has started.

"I do note however, that he is talking along the same lines, ships are not necessary the problem,"

PF, Don't forget the 600 sheep which died onboard just this financial year and that was only on one ship.

Yes indeed PF. The O'Brien comments give us some hope.

I'd vote for Paddy the dog if it helped towards the proper welfare of these poor critters.

Careful folks.

We all tred carefully. Obrien wont do anything until he can offers a alternative to our Farmers.

It would be stupid and irresponsibly of him or Rudd or any Government to do so.


So here is the botton line for all those who say the want to improve the treatment of farm Animals-

Get onboard and get active yourselves in assisting to establish contacts with.
A Farmers and Aboriginal councils
B Small Domestic plants that possible could be updated to Export Standards
C The local Councils and Chamber of commerce offices in your areas to encourage more council involment to reopen country towns.

There many Muslim people and councils who all have contacts with people overseas that buy meat from Australia and Australian Animals.
Talk to them. Talk to your local council be it regional or city. We all eat meat and veggies after all. The city councils must share in the resposibilty.

E Forget the Howard Government.
A little secret
Each State Government Premier also has the same powers as the Mininster of trade for his or her state.
So we can bi-pass the federal Government and send reps from Australia to visit other countries to encourage them to get involved in co joint ventures with farmers at grass roots level here instead of taking animals alive.

MLA and Austrade refuse to do this and have blocked our attempts with red tape.
We the public require Mr Obrien HALF of our own money back to fund this new promotion of co-jointly owned farms and abattoirs Here in Australia with overeas meat purchasers.

Other countries are very interested in Australias free green clean products.
The bottom line is we must not allow either Government to say we are all extreme bunch of Veggies.
That is how they have got away with this blatent cruelty for years.

Unless Animal groups are prepaired to meet us half way - both governments are going to contiune to get themselves off the hook nicely
Simple by branding "all" of us extreme veggies as your saw on Sunday ABC Land Line.- Nothings changed.

Ok, to carry this over from the other thread, let me quote from
your website Dickie, to confirm what I have been saying all along:

"The only way this can be stopped," Krishna added, speaking of the camel slaughter, "is by devout
Muslims making sure that the teachings of the Prophet are practiced. There are strict injunctions
that no sick or injured animal can be slaughtered; that no animal can be slaughtered in view of
another; that the knife must be sharp; that the animal must be rested and well fed; that the animal
must not be made to suffer in any way in the preparations for slaughter; and that even mental agony
or torture is against the teachings.

"When the Prophet once saw a man sharpening his knife in front of an animal, he scolded the
butcher," Krishna reminded, "asking 'Do you want the animal to be killed twice"

Exactly! Islam preaches against cruelty to animals, the veggie
brigade ignore this completely!

Yup, Europe has cut the 80 million $ subsidies to ship live cattle
to the ME, as they used to pay each year.

Europe has not banned live shipments to the ME.
Europe still refuses to accept Australian lamb and mutton of
any volume in their market, unlike the New Zealanders. So Australia
has no choice but to ship to the third world. If Europe changed
their mind tomorrow, we could ship our lambs and mutton to that
market. They refuse.

Yup, a number of modern Western style plants have been built in the
ME, as I mentioned before. I can't seem to recall AA showing them,
in their video.

Oh for God's sake Yabby. Stop your nauseous hypocrisy.

Your bleeding heart quotation has nothing to do with the Middle East and you are quoting an Indian - in India!!

You purposely omitted the initial paragraphs which Krishna was responding to.

You're sick Yabby....get help!

"CHENNAI––While the clandestine Indian cattle export industry chiefly feeds the slaughter industry of nearby Muslim nations, the Indian Muslim minority mostly kills sheep, goats, and poultry at Eid al-Adha.

"Few Indian Muslims dare to harm cattle. Many have been killed in sectarian violence erupting sporadically in response to mere rumors about cattle-killing.

"Especially wealthy Muslim Indians may kill camels, however, like those who massacred 30 camels at 14 locations around Chennai this year, under police protection.

"The camels reportedly took up to two hours apiece to die, to the horror of Blue Cross of India chair Chinny Krishna and thousands of other witnesses."

Two hours to die, Yabby. At the hands of the minority Muslims in India!

You have blood on your hands and your antagonism to truth is revolting!

"Your bleeding heart quotation has nothing to do with the Middle East"

Islam has nothing to do with the Middle East Dickie?

This is the huge difference between us. You focus on the problem,
I focus on the solution! All my life I've had people like you
around, saying we can't do this and we can't do that. I then
went ahead and did it anyhow, leaving them shaking their heads.

If you want to change anything in the Middle East Dickie, forget
shaking your arrogant Western finger at them, forget your high
and mighty approach. The one thing that matters in the Middle
East is religion and if you use that wisely, then you are
on a surefire winner!

I remind you that there is quite a large Muslim population in
India and this guy clearly knows one hell of a lot more about
Islam then you and your veggie brigade do. And he is saying
exactly what I have been saying: You will get results if
you highlight religion in this debate, something that people
like you are just ignoring.

I can't help your limited thinking Dickie. Fortunately I've
never taken much notice of people like you, who can't think
much beyond the tip of their nose.

"Europe still refuses to accept Australian lamb and mutton of
any volume in their market, unlike the New Zealanders. So Australia
has no choice but to ship to the third world"

Yabby - In general, the mutton that you speak of is merino isnt it? Cull animals, past their best production years? Not the best eating.

Wouldnt it be true to say that only third world countries would want them? That maybe live exports need the ME to unload these lines of sheep?

My understanding is that New Zealand export prime lamb and have such acceptance in Europe because of the high quality of their product.

Yabby said to Dickie

You focus on the problem,
I focus on the solution! I then
went ahead and did it anyhow, leaving them shaking their heads.
Pale Comments.
Dickie
While we are all giving Peter McGauran and ALP heaps- and rightfully so isnt it fair to say Yabbys comment holds some water?

I have already explained on the other thread how the Democrates got their first enquiry into Animal Welfare- And! many votes for themselves and labour preferences at elections.

Cant you see that no matter how "well intended" this has been a political joke for years?

Somebody has been using somebody else OR perhaps both lots were involved.
STOP this Animal Welfare concern coming only from the veggie point of view and come up with some alternatives.
Set up Free Range Farms with educational programes working with REAL FARMERS in some sort of franchise arrangment. Real farmers hold the key! Only THEY have the skills to teach humae practises.

Until the majority of representation to both our Governments comes from main stream meating eating farmer supporting members of the public NOTHING will change.

Until the Animal Welfare Groups ALL combine and ALL work WITH THE FARMERS to reopen plants and get them FAIR Prices- nothing will change.

Yabby is the ONLY one Dickie whether you like it or not who has EVER done anything towards finding an alternative. Thats a fact.
I know you wont like me saying this- but its true.Unless hes telling me porkies I think you will find he did spent quite some time trying to assist in reopening plants in WA.
Thats doing something to try to solve the problem Dickie- Thats positive.
Dickie - What is it you really want?
Do you want to see Animals Slaughtered here in Australia where there are some codes of practice[ Not Enough] Or do you want to educate people not to kill animals or eat meat?

To be fair to all readers of this forum and Midas McGauran I think that deserves an answer?

"My understanding is that New Zealand export prime lamb and have such acceptance in Europe because of the high quality of their product."

PF, NZ exports to Europe, as they have sheep that eat grass rather
then expensive European farming systems, plus a massive 260'000 tonne
quota to send both mutton and lamb to Europe. Much mutton is
further processed, into things like pies, sausage rolls, even
pork flavoured sausages!

Australia has a 16'000 tonne quota, despite the fact that we have
twice as many sheep. All processors that I know, could easily
increase exports to Europe and there is demand there for product,
if Australia's quota was increased. Fletcher will confirm that,
he's tried hard to get the quota raised, but failed.

West Australia in particular depends on exports, as we don't have
the domestic population as you do, in the East.

The Middle East trade was based on merino wethers for years, but
as merino wethers are becoming scarcer and scarcer, all sorts of
animals and carcasses are going there, including plenty of prime
crossbred lambs.

Fact is, if I sell a 16kg carcass lamb locally, that carcass will
land up in the ME, I will be paid 1.50 a kg. Thats prime lamb,
not merino. The NZ farmer will get 4.50 a kg for his 16 kg carcass,
which goes to Europe mainly. If that lamb goes on a boat, it will
be worth around $3.75 a kg.

Pale is correct, I spent alot of time trying to get some sense into
the local processing industry, to establish more processing facilities
here. There is no labour, various applications are bogged down in
EPA problems that take years to resolve, the WA Minister of Ag
is not interested. I put it to his offsider to have the Govt appoint
a facilitator to resolve these hurdles, nobody wants to know.
Ok fine, well then we'll just steam ahead and improve welfare in
the Middle East, I think that could be easier achieved then many
think, landing up as a win-win for Middle East animals too.

"you want to change anything in the Middle East Dickie, forget
shaking your arrogant Western finger at them, forget your high
and mighty approach. The one thing that matters in the Middle
East is religion and if you use that wisely, then you are
on a surefire winner!"

I do believe your alter ego, Manuel, has again emerged, Yabby. Pray tell, Manuel, how have you managed to point your arrogant Western finger at the Islamic religion to tell them how to suck eggs?

Your only agenda is to enhance your perfidious profits with the pretence that you have halted animal cruelty in the Middle East - all hail Caesar!

"Everywhere we turn, our faith is both subtly and overtly belittled, and we are continually pressured to adopt western ways, to assimilate to the so called "more civilized culture".

"The same goes with western "Christian" countries that somehow feel they can malign the Muslim world for sacrificing animals, when they themselves have institutionalized factory farming and worldwide environmental destruction."

."The Western powers do what is wrong, knowing it to be wrong and having no qualms about it, thinking that they will explain it away with their method of double-talk." (Shahid Ali Muttaqi)

And our resident imperialist, Manuel believes he has sufficient supremacy over an ancient ideology to subjugate them to do his bidding.

Those with an IQ beyond 2 digits know that any Westernised abattoirs in the Middle East are simply a ploy to increase imports of live animals.

Ah...yes, Manuel is dealing with an ancient culture who are smiling quietly and viewing Manuel with contempt.

But you go for it, Manuel, but I implore you, please take your hand off it!

“Those with an IQ beyond 2 digits know that any Westernised abattoirs in the Middle East are simply a
ploy to increase imports of live animals”

Ah, so there we have it. Dickie’s conspiracy theory! Now scratch your butt for
a minute to get your brain working, and start asking yourself some serious
questions.

With oil at 100$ per barrel and billions of $ pouring into the Gulf, you really
think that the Arabs need ploys. Money is no object in the Midde East. There
are no restrictions on buying livestock from Europe, Africa, South America,
Asia. Yet you think they will invent these devious schemes, which they don’t
need in the first place, as part of your conspiracy theory. Dickie, you really
need a cup of tea and a hot towel on your head, to calm the demons in there :)

“Your only agenda is to enhance your perfidious profits”

Dickie, if I was about profits, I would not be in farming, but in banking,
insurance, or managing your super fund. Farming is by far the least profitable
of any industry sector, but people like me are involved, as we love the lifestyle
and we enjoy working with nature, animals, etc. Some of us do also have a sense
of justice and believe that farmers should receive a fair price for their products,
not just huge megabucks for you city slickers in your offices.

I remind you that despite your quoting of odd individuals with their opinions,
Islam and its prophet made it very clear that Muslims should be kind to animals.

You might want to ignore this fact to suit your veggie agenda, but what
Muhammed said matters in the Middle East, ignore that reality at your peril.

Dickie
Dont tell me let me guess. Your under intructions not to talk to pale.

Tell me please- Whats the POINT of protesting intensive factory farming and live exports if everbody refuses to work towards the alternative?
Better still - give me your opinion why we would been seen as the enermy because we are actually trying to DO something instead of complaining and fund raising?

Its Christmass soon but STILL no Free Range Hams!

I have not trying to offend you Dickie but I noticed you didnt answer.

Yabby Said-
All processors that I know, could easily
increase exports to Europe and there is demand there for product,
if Australia's quota was increased. Fletcher will confirm that,
he's tried hard to get the quota raised, but failed.

pale replies
Now tell dickie Why its not increased Yabby- Tell the truth!
You and I BOTH know why.
Yabby Said
EPA problems that take years to resolve, the WA Minister of Ag
is not interested.
Pale Comments.
Dickie- There you go. Blind freddy can see this is to protect the Live Trade Industry.
Tell you what Yabby
The ONLY way to get that sorted is by getting Saudi or Malaysia to talk to the WA Government. Our Government doesnt listen to Aussies - or didnt you notice.
The bottom line IS The Meat Industry Dickie will always control the meat trade- be it frozen or live.
If you want to change things in the Middle East- you do Aussie deals with them.
Thats not hard trust me. All we need is a fair go and for MLA and Austrade along with a few others to get out of our way and stop protecting their mates in the live Industry.

There are plenty of rich Muslims VERY interested in Australia`s disease Free Green products.

Its called TRDAE and Its supposed to be done by the Government.
Whats worse is - They BLOCK us from doing their job!

"Dickie, if I was about profits, I would not be in farming, but in banking, insurance, or managing your super fund."

Stick to the blood money and your wholesale export slaughter Yabby - no skills required!

The largest, self-professed atheist (the infidel) on OLO has now become extremely pious and a sycophant to Islam, its ideologies and extremism.

More blood on your hands, Yabby.

"Dickie, Dont tell me let me guess. Your under intructions not to talk to pale."

PALE, I have no idea what you are getting at. If you are suggesting that I am discussing you with other Animal Welfare groups then you are way off. In addition, I have no intention of becoming involved in the politics to which you allude.

"Tell me please- Whats the POINT of protesting intensive factory farming and live exports if everbody refuses to work towards the alternative?"

Complaining and fund-raising are what one does in a democracy, PALE and all complainants ARE working towards an alternative.

All those who "complain and fund-raise", exclusively to halt live exports are by default, supporting your crusade for more abattoirs in Australia PALE even if they desist from any dialogue with your Committee.

I concur PALE, local abattoirs are the current alternative to live exports even if the slaughtering aspect conflicts with people's ideologies (though PF's recommendation also has much merit!)

However, people are entitled to lobby in their own fashion. Joining a group or committee is not a mandatory requirement as you appear to suggest. Some people are not groupies.

In a personal sense, OLO is not the only avenue for my own crusade. I am active in other areas also where I continue to expose the heinous behaviour of the subterranean rodents who operate under a mask of civility.

And similar to the rodents, I too at times operate by stealth. That's what one must do when dealing with rodents!

Pale, your true enemies are the cockroaches and rodents governing the Commonwealth and state parliaments, and the evil, greedy bastards who grow animals purposely to expose them to a life of abject misery.

"Stick to the blood money and your wholesale export slaughter Yabby - no skills required!"

Life and death are part of nature Dickie. You clearly don't work
enough with nature, to understand and accept that. As to finance,
I have the skills, that pays the bills, certainly not agriculture.
IMHO your are not stupid, but your philosophy is flawed.

"The largest, self-professed atheist (the infidel) on OLO has now become extremely pious and a sycophant to Islam, its ideologies and extremism."

I am well known on OLO for saying that I don't respect what people
believe, but I respect their right to believe it, if that is their
lifestyle choice. As long as they don't try and make their beliefs
compulsory, thats ok with me.

Pale, I think Dickie has made her philosophies fairly clear in
her many posts. She is against farming of animals and meat eating
in the first place. There are a whole bunch of veggies espousing
a similar philosophy as her's, around the place. One wrote a letter
to this week's Weekly Times. They want farmers to stop breeding livestock,
to the point where many of the domesticated species
that we have had a human/animal association with for thousands of
years, reach the point of near extinction in Australia.

The fact that many farm animals indeed have happy and enjoyable
lives, is conventiently forgotten. I've run into these philosophies
before, in a campaign to save a rare species in Africa. The
bottom line was that it was better for a species to go extinct,
then have individuals of that species in any kind of human
captivity. Its kind of sad that the animals don't get a say in
all of this. They might well disagree

Dickie



Feared offending you- Sorry. Just laying out facts.

Suspect you `are` in contact with groups however it’s a matter for you if you don’t wish to disclose anything.

Thanks your efforts help - again we were not trying to be offensive.

Please print this read it when you have quite moment..
.
It holds the key into what needs to be researched.

To understand fully requires back ground

That’s difficult given limited space.

FYI- @@@ self appointed leading Umbrella of Animal Welfare in Australia who also guide Animal Liberation and many other groups- has instructed their member groups not to work or speak with us.

We assumed that were the case with yourself having experienced it many times before.

That is despite the fact we work in conjunction with RSPCA QLD to protest live Animal Exports.[ Or possible because of it who knows[]-

This is also despite the fact we are the only people to have formed MOUs with Muslim leaders both here and overseas to tackle the cruelty of live exports. Islam will be a big part of Australia and its better we work together encouraging better Animal Welfare.

For the first time not only in Australia but in the world we had a Media Release from Muslim Leaders speaking out in support of Lyn White.

That’s why it was done Dickie- to support her wonderful brave tireless work.

Come on Dickie that’s a huge shot in the arm for the Animals. Think about it.

To have Australian Muslims speaking out and working united “more importantly” working together shoulder to shoulder with the Australian public to find an alternatives.-

@@@ were invited to meetings with Muslim Leaders of Australia Malaysia and Middle East Contacts to discuss this along with Dr Hugh Wirth dozens of times.

That resulted in us being black listed not only in Australia but world wide.

This extends to WSPA which is headed by Dr Hugh Wirth the X President of RSPCA Australia.

Interesting twist isn’t it.

Supported by the CEO of RSPCA UK and members of the board from@@. Umm To be Contiuned

Continued

The application for pale to join WSPA was regected.

What does this mean... It “ DOES” give Peter’s comments on Land Line at least “some substance” .

Peter McGauran’s has a valid point.
However “ that is where it stops.”

He knows the Government chose to “only deal” with Vegetarian organisations.

Makes it easy to discredit people like yourself.
We are angry with Peter because he knows we raised this.

We pointed out to that Australia is a meat eating country and others wanted represent the balance of the main stream public.

We asked his office to establish a new registry Of Animal Welfare board giving `everybody` equal hearing.

Many people have been denied meetings with the Government by them saying-

"The public are already being represented by Animals Australia."

So it’s a bit disingenuous of him now to brand all public as extreme.

It`s been a political game for too many years. The wink wink nod nod between Andrew and the Democrats and @@is outrageous.

The utter disregard for people from his “own electorate” while he worked exclusively with vegetarian groups.


Be assured Dickie the ONLY thing that will make a difference is REALLY supporting Free Range Farmers.

Not just lip service. If I were a member making regular donations to either RSPCA AA AL or any other group I would want to know my funds were going to make a difference to the Animals.

Not to play politics. Not to pay for wages trips.

To get stuck in and buy up farms and get advice from farmers.

Compete within the Industry to introduce improvements.

Breed cruelty free products and advertise the health benefits

If people are serious get involved WITH the Industry and Farmers not make arch enemies out of them.

In return that gives the Government some direction. Let’s face it what politician knows dit about farming anyway.
Not hard if everybody gets involved.
Impossible with people purposely blocking you.

Yabby
Oh Yabbs but arn`t you the little torment. I seem to remember asking you some time ago if you used to pull the wings off flies when you were a kid.
Your calling Dicky a Veggie and I seem to remember she`s already said in fact she eats meat.
You and I shouldn’t speak of vegetarians as second class people either. Vegetarians are the most moral people on earth. There sensible too as its far healthier.

Dicky is rightfully upset with farmers who don’t give a SH about sending their animals off knowing the barbaric treatment they face.

I share the sleepless nights. I understand. I plot and plan how to make a difference. How to get Animals Slaughtered here at least.

However I also share your frustration too. I share the farmers frustration as well having been led down this one track street. I even understand up to a point their anger at what they see as being targeted.

I also get sick of the pictures- the petitions- the campaigns the fund raising- the articles- because at the end of the day it achieves very little.

I am frustrated that groups who have a responsibility to make changes can`t see nothing will change until we group together and do it ourselves!

It can be done. It’s a big job yes. It requires everybody to pull together yes. However its doable.

- Your mind interreges me. Why is it so difficult for you to understand any caring person would be absolutely delighted if some animals were no longer bred for farming.
I have seen your comments on euthanasia and you show compassion and common sense. Possibliy this is a result from a boarder line fear. However I cant understand that you cant understand some of us- in fact many would only wish the same for the animals.
They feel fear pain confussion sadness happiness and even get depressed.
Would you prefer your kids were never born if you knew that they would be put through similar? Then why should we want less for our beautiful Animals.

Frankly Pale, IMHO if you had some kids or grandkids in your life,
you might be less obsessed with the live trade. You only see black
and white, I see many shades of grey.

There are many serious animal welfare issues around. Bear bile farms
in China, dolphin slaughter in Japan, battery chooks, sows in sow
stalls for most of their lives. Yet most of you focus 90% of
your time on the sheep live trade. That makes no sense to me.

Sheep spend most of their lives free range. Every day or two I go
around my flock. They have feed up to their bellies, they snooze
under shady trees, etc.etc. Yup, the moms have babies and clearly
enjoy motherhood and fuss over them. Old George the chief ram,
looks over his little harem and is content with the world.

Why should these animals not have a life in the first place?

Fact is, only so many can live on their land, or they would run
out of food and starve. I make sure that doesent happen, for
nature can be very cruel.

So I look at the big picture. These animals have happy lives and
enjoy their lives. Death awaits all of us. Hopefully when I die,
it will all happen in a few minutes, not days or weeks, as we humans
are forced to endure.

Your total focus is if it takes 1 second or 10 seconds. I think
you are missing the big picture here.

Yabby



QLD is number one cattle exporter.

Australia sends Horses, cattle, dogs, sheep, deer, goats, cammels rabbits, pigs.

Australia`s the talk of the world because of its cruelty.


Government leaders who "ignore the public' and allow themselves to be BROUGHT by donations and who are IN BED with this CRUEL Industry for votes want jailing for life.

This needs to be taken with a ship load of lawyers to the UN.

Wer`e "supposed" to be a Christian country and the Churches influence is great.

Why do you think Howard was running around to his strange little cult. ?

SHAME ON CHURCH LEADERS.

I`m "embarresed" to say I voted for Howard . He made changes three weeks after he was elected.

He made "this industry self regulated.' So he knew bloody well it was a problem.

My God Yabby whats his wife doing?
Whats McGaurans wife doing? All of them?

The Govener General and the little lady sipping high tea! SICKENING

What type of low life mongrel bastards do we have involved in OUR country.?


This is blatent barbaric cruelty which is destroying our reputation world wide.

MLA REFUSE! To Assist To Reopen Abattoirs In Australia by talking with parties in middle East.

They say they wont do "anything' ~that might effect the live~ Trade.??

Farmers Federation REFUSE to allow us to call a meeting and invite the farmers to meet with Middle Eastern people.

Austrade Refuse to assist in the co joint progect.
The corrupt bastards.

Doing Mark Vailes job should have been easy. He was Supposed! to be the Trade Minister.

No Mininster trades off his nations raws material in its most vaulable form unless he has another agenda.

That Agenda was to suck up to the big cruel live Animal Exporters and benefit from the trade deals which the farmers never REALLY understood and still DONT.

We need jobs for Migrants, Aboriginals, Regional areas even more as our population grows.

The country towns are starving for activity.

Abattoirs ARE the life blood in the bush.

That controls ALL other Industries.

Wake up Australia!

Well Dickie, best you stick to eating happily farmed free
range lamb or pork!

Talk about from one extreme to another. Professor ah.

Its too one sided. it holds NO alternatives.

We either find alternative`s or let in continue and get worse.

Thanks for putting this up dickie. It contains information that EVERY household should have.

Perhaps if each group "sent it out" by letter box to their own areas and three surrounding areas- We could work on the next three areas and so forth.

Yabby your just as your extreme in your attitude.
Extremely obtuse and extremely cruel, inncensive , annoying irritating---smile[ You know you love it!].

What sort of person turns their back on such UTTER Cruelty!
Dont you care we are breeding supper bugs that resist treatment through pumping animals with drugs?
What about your children and grandchildren.


Same taken we have the same old same old information and no other suggestion other than we all stop eating meat and make a donation which is almost just annoying.

Oh and thats apart from saying to stop imigrants and abattoir workers.

He`s how it "could " read.

In the 1930s, 24 percent of Americans worked in farming; in 2002 it was 1.5 percent.-
UN strongly supported by the Australian Government have launched the free Range Farmers Asociation to fight Global Warming and improve Animal Welfare.

Australia will play hosts to@@@ Univertity kids to learn to be free Range Farmers.
The Government also is running a programe to teach imigrants and refugees arriving to Australia how to become free range farmers.

Each Free Range Farm will also be supported by a School and their are many competitions at the end of each year.

The primary schools also have the.- My Favouite Farmers Compertition.

Etc
INSTEAD OF THIS>
You would be stop eating meat!
Buy organic eggs and milk from “free range” chickens and cows. Many studies have concluded that vegetarians live years longer. Those years can be used productively to make a better world. We need you.

TRY THIS- We ask everybody to write strong letters of protest to NAFTA heads protesting the following-
Food producers dump their products

I dont think writing letters willy nilly all over the place has much effect.

One well thought out, concentrated plan at a time would serve you much better.

PF
Peter McGauran`s Advisor contacted us yesterday.

Many things were discussed but one of them was the need to work towards alternatives which is much of what kerry Obriens saying .

Clearly despite the best efforts of some fantasic people things have got worse instead of better.

There is increased more live exports, icreased intensive farming and on.

This peak Animal welfare advisory group that has outcasted pale and their progects must be addressed and he agrees.

If you are a peak organisation of anything you must represent and communicate with all the players and groups and people involved.

We can all learn from one another and it is only by working in a sensible manner we will acheive improvements.
Dont you get it?
It cant be represented ONLY from a veggie point of view.

Many or most Australians are meat eaters.
We need people also prepared to work with the farmers.
Didnt you hear Peter McGuran on Land Line saying- Oh but its all coming from ONE extreme group? That effects us ALL.
that damages OUR work!

Thats NOT helping the Animals.
I do not agree it should all be organised by one lot of people.

Nor do I agree that any people should by shut out from being able to put forth alternative ideas for improving animal welfare.

Neither does he and is looking into it.

Ask yourself how many of them have taken up our offer to acheive a string of new free range farms.
None
They wrote back saying they could NEVER be involved with assisting to open abattoirs.
Yes we respect people have that right but why block us from our rights to get the word out to find alternatives.

Through this "peak group" our proposals are certainly NOT being represented by them.

A point not lost With Peter McGaurans or Kerry Obriens office.

Again you miss my point pale. I was suggesting you run one concentrated campaign on your issue, i will run mine.

You need to understand that the government is not responsible for how many free range farmers there are in this country. It is a matter for the farmer to decide how he/she wants to do things.

It is up to industry associations to offer encouragement. We are not a communist country that can order what people will and wont do on the land.

Free range farming requires the management skills of people with some compassion for animals. The last thing we want is for people seeing dollar signs to jump and exploit them. The term free range by neglect springs to mind.

pF
I hear you. Not ignoring you. Busy re the horse culling in QLD
Will get back to this thread very soon.
I must say just quickly the Government have a reasonsibilty to ensure proper treatment.
There are thousands of people out there who wouldnt mind a life style change PF.
Sure they would have to be trained and supervised for a good while.
Its doable.
Just because we have some cruel intensive people in Australia doesnt mean we dont have some wonderful people who would put their heart and soul into a new life and tree change.

Have faith and good luck with all you are doing.
Oh MLA I am sure would SHARE THE FUNDING THAT THE GOOD PUBLIC PAY TOWARDS PROMOTING FREE RANGE FARMERS.
After all the Federal Government do have a say where the funding goas

PF
Just quickly I wanted to repond to your comments. It is up to the Government to encourage humane treatment of farm animals.
With a well organised and funded Ag school educating migrants and tree change familes there is no reason why free range farmers can not be trained.
You must addmitt none of the anti eating intensive progects have had much effect
The truth is free range pork is harder to get than ever.
You cant have a peak animal welfare assocation that refuse to even discuss progects to train free range farmers otr have anything to do with plants.
Its as simple as that.
This is not a vegatrain country and if we are fair dinkim about making changes we must get involved in making those changes

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/17/2093611.htm

Does Mr McGauran truly believe our live export animals will be treated with any respect when the Saudi court system inflicts 200 lashes of the whip and six months imprisonment on a victim of rape?

Reflect on this barbarism, prior to next Saturday's election Mr McGauran, for you may need to seek other employment in which to prostitute yourself.

Happiness is mine when I advise that I shall indeed include you in my meditations for a favourable outcome, cruel Sir.

Midas McGauran wouldnt have the job if he cared.
Although he is only the Minister for Ag.
This whole problem is `trade driven.`

I hate to sound like a bore but until people come up with alternatives- And I might add - Good ones - There is nothing he you or I can do.
The counter argument MUST be to reopen plants and slaughter here.

However nobody wants to help push that or assist us to actually do do that.

re open plants here.

Its the truth Dickie and the sooner you face it the better off you will be.

Thousands of good people just like yourself have put in their time and some spent their lifes working- Trying to MAKE people care.

For thirty years people have protested the cruel live trade.
Its trippled.

You dont like pale because we post the truth Dickie.
However we care enough about the animals andjobs for Oz to keep trying!

"You dont like pale because we post the truth Dickie."

Well I did like Pale until your latest outbursts - which are totally irrational and I'm still scratching my head trying to make sense of it.

I realise now why you're off-side with all the credible animal welfare groups, Pale.

You've now exterminated your only supporter on OLO.

However, I shall continue my crusade without the dictatorial threats and edicts from Pale - a crusade which will be more effective when I move to the metro area.

Won't Yabby be pleased with your inane attacks on me.

You're such a goose Pale.

Dickie
Do not pretend you are not in contact with that lot of dictators.
Its simply folly.
Well you mighten like Yabby and I cant say hes my favouite person however in the last year or so hes actually contributed a fair bit to reasonable comments on how to help get Abattoirs re opended.

Most times in the past we have had some extreme person rushing in to make a comment such as we shouldnt eat meat.

Then of course the topic goes off into the same old debate.
Yabby calls them extreme and they call him cruel and so forth.
Your one of the few people I actually thought sounded as if they had their hand on the right pulse.
Your bright- You care.
Your biggest problem is Dickie you cant see ~why ~the extreme people regect our efforts.
Let me tell you again.

Dr Hugh Wirth and Glenyse[ I am sure you how who glenyse is] were invited several times to sit with the Muslim Leaders of Australia and some from Maylasia and Saudi.

This was to discuss Alteratives steps we could ALL take together to divert Live Exports to local abattoirs throughout Australia.

Just imagine Dickie- The Muslim Leaders standing SIDE BY SIDE Animals Australia Animal Lib pale RSPCA etc.

They were- not interested.??

Now go and have a cup of tea and sit quitely and digest that Dickie.
"Not Interested".

Yet the claim they want to stop live exports??

Thats whats wrong with pale Dickie- nothing personal against you!

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=103447&d=12&m=11&y=2007

There you go Dickie. This is what happens to most of the Hajj
lambs. Most are slaughtered in special slaughterhouses, as
I stated before. Pilgrims pay for them, but seldom see them.

All just like I had stated earlier.

Yet once again, Yabby is proven to be correct ! :)

Yabby
Yeh thats right! And you can find the link where every Good Mossie In Australia is encouraged or ordered to put their funds into.

Umm The real question is WHICH best other than Westpack are involved in shipping our funds offshore?
Umm
The other thing is- Have you been there? Have you seen it?

Its true that many Muslims in ME buy from super markets.

BUT the old Die hard ones go to watch the `sacrifice `

They have these thick plastic strips coming down in front of where the Animal is slaughtered.
The bastards stand there and watch the Animals slaughtered without pre stunning Yabby.[ They are there to make sure its truely Halal??

THATS WHAT HAPPENS. The longer the suffering the more the sacrifice!- The greater hounour to Allah!!

BUT The new age educated Muslim is cluey enough if not good enough to understand the world is looking at them.

They are smart enough to understand that Ritual Slaughters are becoming unexceptable.
Ikabel HATES me calling it Ritual. What the matter Ikabel - Thats what you want here in Australia!.?
Ikabel Patel the new President made a goose out of me personally by making promises he had no itention of keeping.

For thirty bits of silver a man becomes a rat- despite faith.

Thats ok because others will take over.

There ARE others in Saudi who WANT control
They WILL have it too.

All Animals will be slaughtered in Australia and pre stunned.

Elders and Co are stupid if they think they can use the Government to stop others from working with Humane Muslims who are also business men.

So its goodbye to Ikabel Mohamed and Elders
Just to mention a few!

Oh and the new operators VOTE too.

Just remember that Mr Next PM

"Most are slaughtered in special slaughterhouses, as
I stated before. Pilgrims pay for them, but seldom see them.

"All just like I had stated earlier.

"Yet once again, Yabby is proven to be correct ! :)"

Eh..... correct about what Yabby? What is the Islamic difference from slaughtering animals inside a shed or outside? Mind you I do concur that the carnage can be confined to one area. Saves mopping up the blood and guts running down the streets eh?

However, we already have current footage of the interior of your "special" slaughter-houses in the Middle East. Remember all the sheep terrified and huddled together while they watched the rampant killing of their own species?

And didn't the Prophet (peace be upon Him) command slaughterers not to allow live animals to witness the slaughter of another animal? Huh?

Nevertheless I am extremely grateful for the URL you provided. There is a facility to reply to any of the articles and I shall do that forthwith.

The following thread, on the same URL, is to do with American Muslims protesting outside the Australian Embassy in Washington, over the heinous treatment by their fellow Muslims in the Middle East and the shocking journeys these exhausted and stressed animals must endure on the ships of shame, a result of the moral pygmies who control this trade.

Hennyways, Yabby, thanks a million for all that information and the opportunity for yet another outlet to continue my crusade against those barbarians who strut among us.

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=9&section=0&article=81654&d=3&m=5&y=2006

Anything to help with your education Dickie, as clearly you have
lots to learn!

Nope, you don't have any footage of conditions in the Mecca
meatworks, sorry. You have footage of some in Cairo.
I guess for you, overseas is overseas, so they must all
be the same. Dickie, you need to get out and about a bit more!

Yup, Arab News is an interesting URL to learn a bit about
another culture. You would not be the first to send hate
mail lol. The Americans do it all the time, but then
like you, they can be quite badly informed and arrogant.

But then according to you, anyone who farms animals must
be a barbarian, so you have lots of emails to write Dickie!

Ah well, if it makes you feel better and gets it off your
chest, so be it.

Pale, I could not really make sense of your post, but
then that is not unusual :)

Yabby
Fair enough -I just get cranky.

You shouldnt blame Dickey for what PETA put out Yabby.

After all whats your beef with Dickie anyway?

Makes up for a few gutless men.

Met one such bloke this morning- Dr Douglass the National rep for Nerang.
Anyway moving on- Yo Dickey

Crikey dont tell me PETA are finally getting the message.?

Stone the crows!

Let you in on a little secret Dickie.

Thats not how real Muslims speak about Haram products.
This is how they speak-

http://www.livexports.com/afic.html

Here you go compliments of the Tasi Government no less.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:t93mjl51IocJ:www.dhhs.tas.gov.au/agency/pro/multicultural/documents/HalalandHaramFactsheetjul04.pdf+halal+haram&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au
Blimey I just took another look at that picture.

I say thats not Glensye is it? And all this time I thought she wasnt listening- Praise Allah!
Funny as.

No Dickie I am NOT having a crack at you.

Yabby must be beside himself with amusment.

Whats even funnier - or sadder, if you like,- is THEY think they are for real.
They never figured out the done deal votes for the good old democrates. OR DID THEY Glenyse. After all you used to work for Andrew in the Dems office a life time ago didnt you?

Pathetic.

No wonder why Yabby enjoys taking the Mickey .

Now let me tell you the REAL facts Dickie- just so you at least know thruth.

A We offered PETA to work WITH Muslim leaders in Australia and overseas establishing groups of Muslim Australian who opposed the cruel live animal trade.

They hung up in our ear several times. They have refused to `even reply `to correspondence.

B We offered AA and AL the 'same deal'- but they work with PETA so it was no.

Umm and after that-the so called peak represntative of Animal Welfare in Australia[ Self Appointed] black listed us and we were refused as members of WSPA.


Dickie- Do you know what the best part is?

-We have got it in writing!

The real mystery Dickie is Why?

Ah Patience.

"The Halal ingredient must not be mixed, or even come into contact with Haram materials. The act of slaughtering is to ensure the quality of meat and to avoid any microbial contamination. For example, a dead but un-slaughtered animal is normally associated with disease."

Dear me. I will need to inform the Muslim populations on my next email that the live animals they are slaughtering have the potential to be "Haram."

Do they realise that these live animals have been on a ship, crammed in with hundreds of "dead but un-slaughtered animals" which were diseased, thereby having the potential to infect the surviving ones with "Haram?"

Many of the sheep who didn't survive the journey, have had the very contagious scabby mouth. What's the latency period before the symptons of this disease emerges in the surviviors?

How foul.......this means consumers could be eating "Halal" laced with invisible scabs!

Bad luck Dickie, but Scabby Mouth does not affect humans and does
not kill sheep. Animals sent to Saudi Arabia are vaccinated
for it. Thats exactly why the ME like Australian livestock,
they are the healthiest and best conditioned available.

Meantime there has been another outbreak of Rift Valley
Fever in Sudan, which is where the Saudis have been sourcing
more and more cattle. That kills people and livestock. So
demand for Australian product can only increase.

Given that you now know that Muslims should be kind to animals,
hopefully you will join farmers in assisting to change animal
welfare practises in the ME. Even Peta are getting in on that
bandwagon now, it seems. Perhaps they have learnt from us.

You have got to be in it, to win it!

http://www.afic.com.au/Halal.htm#animal
http://www.afic.com.au/Halal.htm

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:MEz59CSzgzMJ:www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/rrat_ctte/animal_welfare05/submissions/sub72.pdf+afic+kind+to+animals&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=au

hope its all starting to become a little clearer for you Dickie.

Your correct. Live Exports is not Halal.

ME people are a bit like us here. They dont always know or see what goes on.
The way in which to speed up the process would be to do a 60 Minutes or such on `their` TV .

There are Many Many Many Muslim People who simply would not tolerate the treatment Animals recieve.

Mostly for a different reason than you and I think.

They key is to get this out to the people over there.

As you know some people in Australia still ask- What are live exports?

Same over there. Not all streets are littered with Animals having their throats cut in the main street.'

If a slaughterman is `known` to perform a haram product he is vanished from the area.

Its a very serious offence. The shame facter is enormous.

Not shame of having made an Animal suffer but shame of producing haram meats.
Now if I were a betting man I would say that Yabby is right to a point.

A little more education in the right areas when we are ready will certainly assist the next Halal company to take over the Industry.

Its there for the taking.
I would say you wouldnt have too much trouble selling your co joint farm and abattoir arrangments with ME business men and Ausie farmers .
Yabby is right by saying Australia Free Green products are a number one with ME Muslims.

Dont think MLA or Austrade who are government funded will assist in creating Jobs for us and taking Animal Welfare seriously.

Old Ian Ross who is MLA top man told me when he called there was no way they would be offering these deals to Middle East.

Farmers Federations have refused to hear about it or allow us to promote the ME Aussie Co joint Share Plants and farms as well.

Its protect the cruel Live Animal Trade at all costs!