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The Forum > Article Comments > Racism an everyday occurrence > Comments

Racism an everyday occurrence : Comments

By Joshua Lloyd, published 3/2/2010

Country Australia has a long way to go to overcome racist attitudes towards Indigenous Australians.

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I ask you Joshua, which is the greater crime, bashing an innocent citizen and stealing everything they have on them, or calling the perpetrator a 'coon'?

I had a long response prepared for this well intentioned but poorly researched article then remembered that rational argument is illegal in Australia when the subject is racism, so I scrapped it.

The bottom line is you discuss a couple of isolated personal experiences then generalise by extrapolating them to national level, with no examination of the underlying causes.
Posted by Saintly Sinner, Wednesday, 3 February 2010 11:39:53 AM
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I'd like to know if Joshua Lloyd only knows derogatory english name calling or is he aware of derogatory indigenous name calling as well. If so, why doesn't he write them as well for the sake of a fair comparison. Perhaps fairness isn't a popular word with the ignorant academic bleaters of discrimination.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 3 February 2010 11:53:15 AM
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Good article.
Actually Individual, I can't think of any derogatory names Indigenous Australians call white Australians. I know of specific words such as migloo and gubba, but these are descriptive words, like Victorian etc.

To be racially specific, I think you will find that there is the adjective of 'white' added to other profanity, when an racial insult is intended.

The only word that really seems to get a rise out of non-Indigenous people is not even racial - the word is Racist.

If a non-Indigenous person is called a Racist they seem to really take offence- even when it is true. Kind of funny really.
Posted by Aka, Wednesday, 3 February 2010 2:45:41 PM
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Well, certainly no perls of wisdom, out of the mouth of this babe.

I wonder what he'll think, if he ever grows up, & gets free of the anti white racism of many of our academic institutions. Try Bronwyn Winters bit, if you doubt this.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 3 February 2010 3:44:34 PM
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the author is naive if he thinks that low employment among aboriginals is because of racism. Numerous mining companies and government agencies have given employment opportunities to many aborigines. The reality is that the vast majority of families are dysfunctional in a big way. Even the individuals who want to do the right thing are dragged down by a culture of alcohol, bludging and abuse. Few are willing to turn up to work and are expected to attend funerals on a very regular basis often halfway across the country. IF racism is telling the truth then so be it most are racist. The reason the prisons have large amounts of aboriginals is because they commit much more crime than the average population. No doubt that also means we are racist to many. In many towns the police force could be reduced massively if not for aboriginal crime. Academics and journalist who teach an unbalanced view of history are the ones who should really be blamed for this dysfunction as they continually promote a victim status. People caught up in famine and poverty in other nations would not believe how many services as well as free food, grog and clothes being given to people who won't work.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 3 February 2010 5:11:32 PM
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The key issue, I believe, is not the extent of racism and other prejudices, but what to do about them. I had hopes of the school systems, once they realised that they needed to do something about openly prejudiced teachers and students, and once the systems developed policies on racism and on indigenous people. Yet it is plain that they are at best partly successful. Not only is racism still easily found amongst young and fairly young people, it has been easy for politicians and shock jocks to develop new prejudices, which become widespread, and which take huge efforts to combat. Schools, anti-discrimination bodies, NGOs and the courts are not enough.

What else can be done?
Posted by ozbib, Wednesday, 3 February 2010 5:14:44 PM
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Racism is real, it's in every society, it's a fact of all life even in the animal world. Racism is also a catchcry & for many it's a disgusting excuse to divert attention from personal or communal dysfunction. It's become so easy to cry racism when in actual fact it is an issue of attitude & not complexion. the worst thing about racism is that those who bleat discrimination are more often then not the perpetrators. What's the old saying ? attack is the best defence ! Any racist will deny it & therein lies the proof. i put it to the bleaters that they don't even understand racism they just find it a convenient excuse to draw sympathy from the indoctrinated & get more funding from government agencies. It's a sick thing indeed but what can be done when so many insist on dragging this stupid attitude out of the depths of hypocrisy over & over. I think the only hope is that decent people simply get sick of this nonsense & stop taking notice.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 3 February 2010 9:26:47 PM
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This article is barely worth reading. In fact you could probably label it as racist. It twists the truth to make one race look worse that they really are and one look better than they really are. Is that not racism? The thing is that whites are made to look worse and blacks made to look better.
Let me ask this question again. I have asked it before with no response. For 80000 years the Aborigines were on this land and made very little progress. Had it not been for the whites they would likely still be there. After all in 80000 years nothing had changed, why would it now change in the last 200 years. They would still be stuck in the desert, chasing food when possible and killing each others tribes.
Also what was their life expectancy before whites arrived and what is it now? Has in improved or gone backwards. I suspect it has improved radically.
Still if you haven't been successful you might as well blame the whites. Its easy to do.
Posted by ozzie, Wednesday, 3 February 2010 9:51:18 PM
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ozzie try leaving the comments for intelligent human beings.
Posted by Lucy Montgomery, Thursday, 4 February 2010 8:52:10 AM
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When I was 12 years old, I was chased down the street by three Aboriginal kids of about the same age as me, screaming abuse and threatening to beat me up. I got home and told my parents that I'd been chased "by three Abos". My parents' reaction? "Don't call them that!"

Just goes to show how this country is concerned with image over substance. We ignore real issues in favour of semantics. Let's face it, nobody is denying Aborigines an education, nobody is making them drink alcohol. They need to take responsibility. Tony Mundine exercised a great deal of responsibility in raising his son Anthony, teaching him the value of a healthy lifestyle, making the most of himself and avoiding alcohol and drugs. If he can do it, so can others.
Posted by benny tea, Thursday, 4 February 2010 9:41:24 AM
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Jeez, aren't we whities sensitive! Joshua writes a thoughtful account of his experiences encountering racism in rural NSW and he's accused of naivety and academic anti-white racism (whatever that is!)

Imagine if these sooks (Runner, Hasbeen, Individual, Saintly Sinner) had been born black and endured the relentless racism experienced by my Aboriginal friends here in Qld, NSW or the suburbs of Sydney or Melbourne.

Yes blackfellas mug white people, and some break and enter and behave criminally, and, shock-horror, some have even made disparaging comments about whitefellas but when a white fella mugs someone in your town or suburb do you sound off at white people? Are all white people crims if one engages in criminal behaviour? I do not condone violence committed by individual Aborigines any more than I'd condone it from whitefellas but there is a peculiar trait in white Australiam discussions of Aboriginal people and that is our seeming inability to distinguish between individual blackfellas and the rest of the Aboriginal community. The same sadly applies to Lebanese and even Indians. They are "the other" and apparently in our eyes just an amorphous mob with no individuality.

I have lived and worked with blackfellas in NSW, Qld and the NT, in the city and the bush, and overwhelmingly I've been treated with respect and hospitality. Rarely, maybe 2 or 3 times, have I been abused and when this has happened it has been from someone so marginalised, so disempowered, that the impact on me has been totally negligible. But then clearly I'm not a big sook like some of the correspondents on this page.

White Australian racism against Aborigines is driven by guilt and the refusal to acknowledge the crimes committed against Aborigines. Having refused to open our eyes the best response is to depersonalise Aborigines and blame them for all that has happened and continue to look for excuses to deny them justice and recompense for their appalling losses.

Read history, learn about the past, open your hearts, befriend your Aboriginal neighbours and become real Australians not the ignorant bigots you currently demonstrate yourselves to be.
Posted by BigAl, Thursday, 4 February 2010 10:09:39 AM
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Individual and others

Joshua's article is a tad idealistic and naive, he does raise some telling points.
> "262 of the 288 incidents, or 91 per cent, of these kinds of assaults in the area were allegedly committed by non-Indigenous people."<
91%! by bloody whites! we're a violent lot.
Talk about calling the copper black!

Are you suggesting that a broken nose, jaw, arm or a glassing by a white assailant is less injurious? painful? Or that white violence is more justified than indigenous?

IMO there is no justification for violence by anybody.

As for the genius who said "racism happens around the in every race" or words to that effect. So does murder, incest, bestiality and whole list of nasties are you suggesting we shouldn't try and reduce them...including racism?
Rather frightening moral code you lot seem to have.

By trying to justify the unjustifiable, with almost every keystroke you dig yourselves deeper into the mire. , proving the point. Racism is alive and well even on OLO.

Why not accept the truth and try to do something about it ....er... maybe not adding to the cumulative load?

Old saying "when you're up to your neck in $hit don't sing about it."

Runner, You're right there are other reasons that contribute to the lack of indigenous workers.
The question in my unchristian mind is why and what we as a society can/should do about it? See them as individuals/people not some lesser anamorphic mess of crime, destitution and in need of religious saving.
Posted by examinator, Thursday, 4 February 2010 10:57:31 AM
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Oh dear, poor Ozzie. You really don't have a clue do you poor bugger.

Let me try and help you understand just the basics because the complex nature of pre-colonial Aboriginal societies (note the plural because Aboriginal people have never been homogeneous with vast differences in lifestyle, diets and culture between people living in deserts, alpine country, savannah country and rainforest) would clearly be too difficult for someone of your ingrained bigotry.

No Ozzie if we hadn't arrived and dispossessed them Aborigines would not "still be stuck in the desert, chasing food when possible and killing each others tribes."

Aboriginal nations occupied every inch of this country; desert, rainforest, savannah, mulga country and all the rest. In their management of their own lands they developed some of the world's most complex society structures, kinship systems, religious beliefs and land management techniques. This fact is acknowledged by those who, unlike yourself, take the time to investigate rather than just run off at the mouth.

All the estimates that I have read based on quality historic and scientific data points to an average Aboriginal life span at the time of european invasion of this continent TWICE that of the poor bastards on the first fleet. European life expectancy was 35 or 40 years of age at the end of the 18th century, whereas Aboriginal life expectancy was estimated at around 70 - 80 years. But heh, Ozzie, never let the facts get in the way of a long held prejudice mate!
Posted by BigAl, Thursday, 4 February 2010 11:47:45 AM
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Nioe article, Joshua Lloyd. Your experience pretty well matches my own, with respect to the obvious racism towards Aborigines in rural and regional Australia. That Australian society is still deeply racist towards Indigenous people is evidenced by the defensive comments above.

I agree with BigAl in particular:

<< Read history, learn about the past, open your hearts, befriend your Aboriginal neighbours and become real Australians not the ignorant bigots you currently demonstrate yourselves to be. >>

Well said indeed.

As for this:

individual: << Racism is real, it's in every society, it's a fact of all life even in the animal world. >>

I put it to you that you haven't got a clue as to what constitutes racism. Here's a clue - animals aren't racist, it's a specifically human phenomenon. Stop bleating about matters in which you clearly have little experience or knowledge, and follow BigAl's advice above.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Thursday, 4 February 2010 11:58:44 AM
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Examinator is right, for once. There is much white on white violence today.

Of course, that only started happening since we let all these bl00dy foreigners migrate here.

PS. almost half of my school football team, in country NSW were aboriginals. As hooker I swung between two big ones. One of them is the only school "mate" I am still in contact with, my only school time friend. Funny, at school I always thought he was a "W0G", not part aboriginal.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 4 February 2010 1:03:30 PM
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Ouch ozzie, even Pauline Hanson would be embarrassed.

This is a great article, well-written and thoughtful. A shame that the less intellectually gifted OLO readers decided to comment first. But then the shallow end of the gene pool isn't always the quietest!
Posted by David Jennings, Thursday, 4 February 2010 1:24:29 PM
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Poor article. There are issues, serious ones at that but a few name calling events in private do little to expose them. In fact just make people yawn. Middle Class rich white kids well trotted out proof, heard it before and no doubt will hear it again. How long now we have had these lazy attacks on the wrong targets?
Posted by TheMissus, Thursday, 4 February 2010 1:35:49 PM
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BigAl,
Would you care to provide the references for your claims that Aboringines had 1) ".... developed some of the world's most complex society structures, .......and land management techniques." and 2) "Aboringinal life expectancy was estimated at around 70-80 years."
Thanks.
Posted by ozzie, Thursday, 4 February 2010 9:37:55 PM
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An interesting but sad reflection on much of Australian rural life. It is hard to see things changing much over the next 20 or so years. A lot of learning and understanding needed all round.
Posted by blairbar, Thursday, 4 February 2010 11:34:13 PM
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what constitutes racism.
CJMogan,
I KNOW what racism is & does, I live it daily whereas you & Big Al appear to be achetypical of the guilt industry reality smoke screen guild. I KNOW & experience that industry on a daily basis as well.
All I can suggest to you is go out there & live on communities it never was the Nirvana you attempt to portray. Of what benefit is to any indigenous to perpetuate myths ? It is & alway has been a very harsh environment & you haven't convinced anyone of those life spans you stated.
Posted by individual, Friday, 5 February 2010 6:35:24 AM
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You miss the point "individual" or you dont want to understand it. Nobody said that the way that some Aboriginal live in rural communities is ideal. That said, some Aborigines living in rural areas seem to live normal suburban type lives.

The point was that all Aborigines shouldn't be subjected to racism - whether its to their faces or behind their backs. That it isn't said to them directly doesn't help. The fact that the rural whites are saying these things openly means that when it comes time to consider whether to hire an Aborigine or not they wont do it. Wide open spaces and empty minds.
Posted by Lucy Montgomery, Friday, 5 February 2010 8:22:48 AM
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individual: << I KNOW what racism is & does, I live it daily >>

No doubt. From what you've posted here, you're an example of what Joshua Lloyd writes about.

However, to understand why I think that, I'd suggest you look past your own very limited experience and look up the meaning of the word "racism" somewhere authoritative.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Friday, 5 February 2010 9:19:14 AM
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Bo suggestions for my first question. So here is a second. What is a race? Given the huge amount of trade and conquest over the centuries, where do you find anyone that could be said to belong to a single race?

An example. To the area around Ribchester,from where my paternal line ancestors come, invaders came from Denmark and Norway in the 800's. In the 500's Angles and Saxons came from Sleswig and Holsten, (sic) and Jutes from Jutland. From about 175-400 AD Ribchester was garrisoned by Sarmatian cavalry, and mingled their genes with those of the local population. They came from Dacia (now Roumania)--the famous Dacian horse. The Sarmatians were descended from people who rode into southeast Europe from the steppes of Russia. Herodotus tells us that at his time (c.400 BC) they were living in Samarkand, on the Silk Route, where their ancestors almost certainly included Chinese and Persians. Of what race am I? The question is absurd. I'll warrant it is as absurd to ask it of anyone with European ancestors
Posted by ozbib, Friday, 5 February 2010 10:13:53 AM
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People need to stop being so bloody precious about all this.

Just as one person has posted that Aborigines are justified in being prejudiced toward whites on the basis of past injustice, then so too it should be recognised that prejudice toward Aborigines based on the behaviours displayed by some of their people is just as understandable.

The FACT IS that there's right and wrong on both sides - there are indeed white aussies who deride Aborigines and exclude them absolutely on the basis of race - and there are Aborigines who carry a massive historical chip and feel pretty much entitled to hate and attack whites at every opportunity on that basis.

Going a little deeper we'll find that generally the white aussies who deride Aborigines do so on the basis of a social prejudice - NOT actually a racial one per se - and likewise, Aborigines feeling a very strong social prejudice toward them are taking it as racist and lashing back.

As a society we need to DROP this race crap and make a paradygm shift toward thinking in terms of PREJUDICE instead.

"Racism" puts a whole raft of often complex issues into too big a basket and then forces the lot to collectively be looked at selectively in terms of clear right or wrong and often in different ways depending on the direction being viewed from.
Posted by Spinner, Friday, 5 February 2010 11:20:36 AM
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On both sides of the fence there's actually a combination of race AND SOCIAL prejudice in existence. Of the two, thanks to the levels of understanding and education we enjoy as a modern society, race prejudice is really not all that problematic to work on and resolve - after all, pretty much ANY white aussies who deride Aborigines via racial slurs would if honest agree that they know it's wrong - as I would like to think most Aborigines would agree the same sort of thing from their "side".

What's happening is that underlying social issues exist that are not so easy to deal with but nonetheless desperately NEED to be dealt with - but as long as the whole lot keeps being chucked in the "Racism" basket nothing constructive is or ever will be achieved in those areas - so the divide will continue in perpetuity as Racism.

None of this is easy - white aussies need to face up to the fact that they're "copping" out by expressing their unhappiness with Aboriginal societal and individual standards by generalising to race - and Aborigines need to realise that their big problem in broader Aussie society is actually SOCIAL prejudice and work on that rather than going with the same sort of racial copout.
Posted by Spinner, Friday, 5 February 2010 11:22:37 AM
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Why bother.

a) It is ethno centric - Indigenous have to become successful in the capitalist system to be considered successful. There is no room for Indigenous culture or traditional lifestyles when measuring success from unemployment numbers. This is the very base of the issue. We measure with ethnic-centric eyes, uni degrees? employment levels? So we want them urbanised, is that it? Ok so we move them into urban areas and send them off to uni and work..ah Cultural Genocide !

b) Idle gossip - Oh so and so called so and so this name, oh golly gosh.

c) Woeful stereotyping regional Australia against urban.In fact regional Australia has both extremes due to closer contact. So you will also find those most at ease and most appreciate of Indigenous culture because they may actually know a little about it. I had a friend from Sydney visit and we took a bus to Cairns. When we alighted she remarked we were the only non-Aboriginals on the bus. Yet I never saw one. Gosh Sydneysiders do not even know that they look like!

c) Negative - All we ever hear is negative stories regarding Indigenous people then complain when people adopt negative sterotypes or attitudes. One creates them then gets all huffy when people take their negative messages literally.

Lifespan has nothing to do with it. I heard it was very young, like 21 or so. However white people did not live so long then either and I bet here in Australia they went backwards before forwards adapting to harsh conditions as they did. The issue is now and of course some issues are because of remote location. Again do we move them?. Some health issue pre-disposed so do we get them to intermarry to gain some medical immunit? Are we withholding services that any Australian in a remote community would expect? If not then move on to next health related subject to pin point any discrimination in health services. We are stuck in a loop because we get the newbies starting from scratch every 20 years or so.
Posted by TheMissus, Friday, 5 February 2010 12:01:53 PM
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It should be no surprise that racism continues to exist or that it can be found more openly expressed in some areas than others.
Far too many of us have limited experiences with Aboriginal peoples and for a large number that experience is almost completely limited to unpleasant and often criminal contact.
Because the drunk in the public park, the shoplifter on security footage, the loud and abusive person on the street and/or the beggar at the bus station are all more likely to make an impression than the person going to work, raising their kids and living a normal life all too often the images that many europeans have of indigenous people are negative.
I had an aboriginal foster brother while I was going up, but I also was threatened by Aboriginal kids down at the river. My son's best friend in school is Aboriginal - I hope that all of his impressions are positive - but my daughter has also been threatened by Aboriginal children.
When we all know as many good aboriginal people and have as many positive experiences with aboriginal people as negative - maybe then things will change.
Posted by J S Mill, Friday, 5 February 2010 2:50:56 PM
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Positive experiences are hard to come by J S Mill, one fault is that many think it requires interaction with Indigenous Australians. Indigenous are not renowned for sharing their culture, in fact can be stubbornly protective of it. You simply cannot turn up to a community and be welcome with open arms, you really should be invited. Ellen DeGeneres the other day came under attack for playing a didgeridoo and Google felt the wrath of copyright when they requested use of the Aboriginal flag for a Google doodle.

If you read the Flag thread the author mentions his appreciation of Indigenous culture is by immersing himself in the prescence of a natural landmark. So it is not respect of their culture in a paternal way but respecting what they respect. A huge difference. So no real reason to gatecrash their homes. You do not need to read copious quantities of junk academic transcripts to gain cultural insight. You only need to see with the same eyes.

The whole narrative we have had for generations now destroys their self esteem. The only real solution is not for them to comply with our standards but for us to comply with theirs. Does not mean dot painting class, simply getting back to nature in the real sense of the word. It is a no lose proposition and the only way we can go forward together.

Won't happen though, the only eyes we have for nature are from the balcony of a 5 star resort or from the eye opening of a "environmental protest koala suit" on hire in Yuppyville.

So if you want a child to have positive Indigenous experience then simply share the landscape with them, teach them respect and love for it and the respect of Indigenous Australians then comes so easy because it becomes shared values, so very very easy. No red nappies required.
Posted by TheMissus, Friday, 5 February 2010 4:38:14 PM
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BigAl,

Above I asked you to provide references for the points you criticized me on. I have had no reply. Again I will ask you to provide references for your claims that Aboringines had 1) ".... developed some of the world's most complex society structures, .......and land management techniques." and 2) "Aboringinal life expectancy was estimated at around 70-80 years."

Thanks.

Another point which I would like to highlight in this article refers to the figures the author presents. Often politically correct authors present figures in this manner to confuse the less educated into believing their views. What I am talking about is he attempts to counter the argument, that a higher proportion of the indigenous population are involved in non-domestic violence ( 1.9% versus 0.7% non indigenous) by stating that 91% (262 of 288 incidents ) are commited by non-indigenous people. This might fool the mathematically challenged including my mum. Wow 91%, that's huge, white people must be to blame. I see this type of argument put forward so often it has become a joke. Yet a large percentage of the population are convinced by it. A little further examination will explain how very misleading this is. In the following few paragraphs the author states ( or lets slip ) that in the area of concern only 3.6% of the population are indigenous. Thus 9%( 26 of 288 incidents) are committed by only 3.6% of the population ( the indigenous population). A point the author conveniently leaves out of his article. Obviously you would expect ( other things being equal) 3.6% of the population would be responsible for 3.6% of incidents( crimes). A little further calculation demonstrates the indigenous population are 250% ( yes 250%) more likely to be responsible for these incidents( CRIME). So the figures he presents actually demonstrates non-indigenous are under represented in crime whilst indigenous are over represented. With a little extra maths we can calculate that if the population was purely indigenous there would be 722 crimes versus 271 if the population was all non-indigenous.
Posted by ozzie, Friday, 5 February 2010 7:12:16 PM
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look up meaning of the word "racism" somewhere authoritative.
CJMorgan,
you mean authoritative as in reading books like so many "experts" in anything indigenous ? Of course living in communities for 30 years how could anyone possibly know anything about the people who live there. I know even more about the "experts' who visit frequently & cause nothing but more & more discontent. These consultants are generally ignorant & highly hypocritical & to top it off they're highly irresponsible. I have never pointed the finger at the everyday indigenous but I am pointing it at those pretend ones, you know the ones I mean, you just don't want to concede that people can see through the facade.
Posted by individual, Friday, 5 February 2010 9:32:33 PM
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Racism or Prejudice?
We are continually accused of being a racist society. But is it racism? Or plain old Aussie prejudice! For instance, Chinese restaurants dishing up stray cats as rabbit or chicken! This old tale kept me off Chinese food for years! Aussie ex-P.O.Ws from ww 2 refusing to buy Japanese cars because of their treatment. Is this racism? If so, what is color prejudice? If you're white you're right, if you're brown hang around, if you're black get back. This is a determining factor in Aboriginal society as well. Is this racism? And if you're Islander (Mud) get back even further! The division between Full-Blood and caste Aboriginal People is legend. An issue not discussed in the public domain. Almost like a taboo subject ! But a fact of life. You won't hear Michael Mansell talk about this. A Full-Blood will accept and trust a white person before they would a yella fella or mixed blood Aboriginal they know will exploit them. Is this racism? Torres Strait Islanders are derided by us. Is this racism? This is one reason why they are seeking to annul the marriage "Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders". On the grounds of non consummation. It was a marriage in name only. Regarding and involving easier and continued access to funding. A marriage of convenience so to speak. ( alb c.9/07 )Arthur Bell.
Posted by bully, Friday, 5 February 2010 10:26:05 PM
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Racism or Prejudice?
Bully,
In my experience the deciding divisie factor in all this idiocy is ATTITUDE. This is something the proponents of division either don't understand but more than likely fully exploit. I give you an example of such moronic malice. I walked into the local bar & a friend was sitting at the bar & beside him was an unoccupied bar stool. I asked if the stool was taken & he said no, sit down. As soon as I sat down an indigenous came over & said. "Hey, that's my seat." So, I said sorry & grabbed another stool & before I sat down he said "alright you can have my seat" I replied thanks but I already got another one. He the started with "you don't want to use my seat because a black man sat on it" I told him to just don't worry about it. I've got a seat & all's well but he was simply looking for an argument but he failed to rile me because I knew if I took the bait it would be on for young & old. He shouted some profanities & left the bar. For the deniers this is a far too common scenario & that is simply a stupid indoctrinated attitude & not racism. This indoctrination of indigenous by white academic do-gooders that white people are there to work for them from cradle to grave is highly irresponsible & totally immoral. How are we ever to achieve harmony when Government funded do-gooders can perpetuate this nonsense.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 6 February 2010 9:26:29 AM
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Ozzie your lack of intelligence is staggering. Why would you expect 3.6% of the population to be responsible for 3.6% of the crimes? Do you actually think that everybody in Australia commits one crime per year thereby making the crime stats add up to a magical 100%?

If there were 26 incidents of assault by indigenous people out of 288, what would your conclusion be if the 26 assaults were committed by only two or three people? There were 262 incidents of assault by non-indigenous (mostly white) people - the bulk of which were not domestic violence. So in fact you are more likely to be attacked by a white or other non-indigenous person in that area. Cold comfort if you do get attacked.

To be fair, I doubt that the 262 assaults were committed by 262 different people. The assaults likely center around a smaller group of people but its likely that they'd still out-number the indigenous ones. To fully know we would need more detailed stats.
Posted by Lucy Montgomery, Saturday, 6 February 2010 10:11:14 AM
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bully: << Chinese restaurants dishing up stray cats as rabbit or chicken! This old tale kept me off Chinese food for years! >>

A good example of a racist urban myth that hasn't quite died out yet.

<< A Full-Blood will accept and trust a white person before they would a yella fella or mixed blood Aboriginal they know will exploit them. >>

I'd be interested to know how you came across this generalisation. Have you spent time living with "Full-Bloods" in order to observe this, or is it something you heard at the pub?

Speaking of the pub (as opposed to the "local bar"), if we accept that individual didn't just make up his anecdote, the ranting of an aggrieved drunk is hardly going to be a good basis for generalisation. One thing that interests me about "individual" is that he has previously claimed to be a "newcomer to this country", but also claims to have 30 years' experience working in Aboriginal communities. Which is it, individual?

As I said before, I think you're exactly the kind of unreconstructed racist that the OP was describing in the article. Anybody who lives in rural or regional Australia will readily recognise the reality of Joshua Lloyd's observations, otherwise they're in denial.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Saturday, 6 February 2010 10:18:05 AM
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Lucy, your posts are very interesting. You have three posts in this topic. In each, when you disagree with a point of view, you begin with a personal attack on the other persons character or intelligence, rather than just explaining what or why you disagree.

Anyway, you last post here begins,

"Ozzie your lack of intelligence is staggering. Why would you expect 3.6% of the population to be responsible for 3.6% of the crimes? Do you actually think that everybody in Australia commits one crime per year thereby making the crime stats add up to a magical 100%?"

I strongly disagree. I have degrees in mathematics and medicine and although the mathematics degree is many years ago, I still have a reasonably grasp of it.

Let me explain in more detail. Bathurst's population (where the author is) is around 29000. There were 288 incidents of crime. 26 were committed by the indigenous population which is 3.6% (1044 people). When dealing with large populations, small factors such as a few individuals causing alot of crime should even themselves out in the overall statistics. If you read my previous post I clearly stated "all other things being equal 3.6% of crime should be caused by 3.6% of the population." So if there are a few indigenous people causing much of the crime, there will equally likely be many of the same type of individuals in the remaining non-indigenous population also causing much of the crime. There factors should even out as there are likely to be many more of these in the non indigenous group as there are 28000 non indigenous people in total.
Another easier example is that if Sydney had x% of the total Australian population, then you would expect ( other things being equal) Sydney to account for x% of Australia's total crime.
You comment about the figures magically adding up to 100% just does not make mathematical sense. It does not matter what the total absolute crime figure is. It could be 104, 288 or 2588. The total figure is automatically assigned to be 100%.
Posted by ozzie, Saturday, 6 February 2010 12:19:44 PM
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1044 people is not a large population and 26 incidents is a small amount of crime. So things aren't just going to "even out" in the statistics. Plus there can be a lot of other factors that can account for the 26 incidents and the slightly disproportionate number of indigenous people in the statistics. For example, over-policing by arresting an Aborigine for conduct that other people might be excused for such as public drunkness or having an open alcohol container in a public place can contribute to the recorded number of assaults. There are lots of stories in the legal profession of rural white police arresting Aborigines for swearing at the police and classing that as an assault. In contrast I know of instances where they have let rebellious white teenagers go with just a warning for the same conduct. As a lawyer you see these things so you learn not to blindly trust statistics.

But even so 26 is still a very small number. With 262 incidents of crime committed by non-indigenous people you're still more likely to be assaulted by one of them rather than by an indigenous person.

You also haven't explained why 3.6% of the population should account for 3.6% of the crime when there could obviously be other socio-economic factors at play.

The others on the board have also showed a fair degree of contempt for your views. Given the prejudice you've shown I don't think that you need to be treated with much respect.
Posted by Lucy Montgomery, Saturday, 6 February 2010 2:14:45 PM
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"With 262 incidents of crime committed by non-indigenous people you're still more likely to be assaulted by one of them rather than by an indigenous person."
"For example, over-policing by arresting an Aborigine for conduct that other people might be excused for such as public drunkness or having an open alcohol container in a public place can contribute to the recorded number of assaults." Lucy

"Between 1997 and 2001, a total of 25,000 Indigenous peoples appeared in a NSW Court charged with a criminal offence. This constitutes 28.6% of the total NSW Indigenous population." Australian Human Rights Commission 2008.

Given that the author's figures refer to non-domestic violence related assaults,the percentages are in keeping with the Human Rights Commission figures for criminal offence charges as a whole in NSW. If anything I suspect Orange is above the NSW average.
So yes Lucy one is more likely to be assaulted by a non-indigenous person in Orange than an indigenous one. Why? because there are nearly thirty times more non-indigenous people living in Orange!
How can arresting a person for public drunkeness be recorded as assault? Or do you mean that arresting the indigenous person for public drunkeness led to the assault? I think we are speculating a lot here.
In Orange, as elsewhere in NSW, a disproportionate number of assaults and other crimes are committed by the indigenous population but most assaults and other crimes are committed by the non-indigenous population. Why argue about these figures?
"However, in expressing my dismay at how someone can commit an unprovoked assault, it was explained to me by another (white) Bathurst local that “they’re coons - that’s all they do”. Author

Given the age and sex distribution of the indigenous population it is not surprising that the obnoxious Bathurst local came to that ( somewhat erroneous) conclusion. But it happened and these umderlying views will continue to be held by a large number of rural and urban non-indigenous people. How to change these views, I have no idea, and I don't think too many other people do either.
Posted by blairbar, Saturday, 6 February 2010 6:23:25 PM
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I declare it racist to talk about humans as statistics. they are not, they are a diverse human community that cannot be measured by western means.
Posted by TheMissus, Saturday, 6 February 2010 7:18:07 PM
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Lucy, you have now changed you argument ever so subtlely to try and slide out of what you originally said. Let’s have a look at how you’ve done this

My original statement was precisely;
“Obviously you would expect ( other things being equal) 3.6% of the population would be responsible for 3.6% of incidents( crimes).”

You disagreed stating; “Why would you expect 3.6% of the population to be responsible for 3.6% of the crimes? Do you actually think that everybody in Australia commits one crime per year thereby making the crime stats add up to a magical 100%?”

I again explained ;
“If you read my previous post I clearly stated "all other things being equal 3.6% of crime should be caused by 3.6% of the population."

To which you now have replied;
“You also haven't explained why 3.6% of the population should account for 3.6% of the crime when there could obviously be other socio-economic factors at play.”

So in this last statement of yours you have misrepresented what was originally said. You have conveniently left out the “all other things being equal “portion. You shouldn’t be so underhand.
I agree that socio-economic factors could play a role, likewise many many many other factors could equally play a role. We could go on arguing all day about these factors and that’s why right at the beginning I stated “all other things being equal”. It pointless having these discussions if people like you are going to misrepresent what has already been said, in order to win an argument.
So I will stand by my original statement above.
“Obviously you would expect ( other things being equal) 3.6% of the population would be responsible for 3.6% of incidents( crimes).”
You also need to further clarify you statement about crime stats magically adding up to 100%. This clearly shows your total lack of primary school maths. But then again you are only a lawyer, I don’t expect much from you.

BigAl,
I’m still waiting for your references to back your claims.
Posted by ozzie, Saturday, 6 February 2010 7:28:24 PM
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"I declare it racist to talk about humans as statistics. they are not, they are a diverse human community that cannot be measured by western means." TheMissus
I declare TheMissus is talking through his or her hat. I'm not sure what non-western means could be used to mmeasure and describe human populations.
But racist to classify the human population? Surely that should read populationist.
Posted by blairbar, Saturday, 6 February 2010 8:55:54 PM
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Lucy,

Around 12 % of the population are left-handers, so one would expect that 12 % of criminal acts would be committed by left-handers, and any major deviation would need explaining: yes, if the lefthander rate was much higher, we could propose socio-economic factors, discrimination, etc., etc., and if the rate was much lower, as I expect it is, the simple fact that lefthanders are better-looking and more intelligent, and therefore better able to cope with life's stresses, may account for this, but still the deviation would have to be explained. Those explanations would not change the statistics, as if we can wish them away with excuses.

In this case, Indigenous rates are three times what they should be in Bathurst (11 % : 3.6 %), so how to explain this ? Of course, socio-economic factors, a perception of lack of equal opportunity, police harassment, petty racism, complex racism, act of God, whatever - these would all have to be proposed and examined.

But the facts remain, Missus. Stats tell us something, crude as they may be, that then may need to be analysed and explained. We are all stats, one way or the other - class, age, gender, education level, employment status, right- or left-handed, using public service x or y, over- or under-weight, etc. Suck it up.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 7 February 2010 9:02:55 AM
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Lucy don't waste your time on Ozzie. For somebody who purports to have a medical degree to come out and said what he said in his first post beggars belief.

If anybody is being dishonest its Ozzie. Where is his evidence that the article is racist?

I like this particularly rancid quote:

"With a little extra maths we can calculate that if the population was purely indigenous there would be 722 crimes versus 271 if the population was all non-indigenous."

You forgot to say all things being equal there Mozzie.
Posted by David Jennings, Sunday, 7 February 2010 3:45:58 PM
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What kind of lifestyle do you have to lead to be 'Aboriginal'?
My sister-in-law is half aboriginal, and she has never lead a tribal life in any way.
Does that make her 'Aboriginal'?
Perhaps she and my niece and nephew may also be classified as a racist, they have never associated with any relatives in camps (she is a country girl), and have always fully embraced a 'white picket fence' lifestyle with my brother.
The naive concept of the 'noble savage' should have died out years ago. Earliest explorers noted the savage and disfiguring wounds carried by Aboriginal women, scars left from vicious domestic assaults. Not much has changed, for many Aboriginal women and children.
Posted by floatinglili, Sunday, 7 February 2010 10:48:56 PM
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Blairbar : "I declare it racist to talk about humans as statistics. they are not, they are a diverse human community that cannot be measured by western means." TheMissus
I declare TheMissus is talking through his or her hat. I'm not sure what non-western means could be used to mmeasure and describe human populations.

Oh how terribly ethno centric, not racist MUCH.

Plus it DOES entrench negative stereotypes the way they have been used. If you tell virtually anyone for eg that far fewer Indigenous Australians drink alcohol than mainstream population people simply do not believe it. True though.

btw A great non-western measurement is happiness. Whenever you see Indigenous children they are so happy they burst from their skin. I never see mainstream children as happy as often. Where are stats that ask why our children are not so as happy as Indigenous? they do not seem to be polluted until an older age when western measurements are imposed. Certainly in younger life I feel they are far happier and in adult life they drink far less. Where as these stats?

Like Floating lili suggests also, way too diverse to apply one measurement to. Extreme diversity. With such extremes averages mean nothing.
Posted by TheMissus, Monday, 8 February 2010 3:41:18 PM
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A definition: "Statistics is the science of making effective use of numerical data relating to groups of individuals or experiments. It deals with all aspects of this, including not only the collection, analysis and interpretation of such data, but also the planning of the collection of data, in terms of the design of surveys and experiments.” Wikipedia.
Statistics don’t ask anything; they reveal. You can’t find statistics to support your view that non-indigenous children are not as happy as indigenous children? There could be three reasons for this:
1. Published studies have failed to support your view;
2. Studies looking at whether non-indigenous children are as happy as indigenous children have not been undertaken and
3. Studies that support your view have been undertaken but not published.
How can measurements pollute? Measuring the weight and other physical attributes of infants pollutes? How ridiculous.
‘In adult life they drink far less.” Statistics show that the percentage of indigenous people who consume alcohol is lower than that for non indigenous people. Statistics also show that of the two groups who drink alcohol, indigenous drinkers consume more alcohol per head than non-indigenous drinkers.
“Oh how terribly ethno centric, not racist MUCH.” Rather juvenile and offensive don’t you think? But then I suspect you are indeed a juvenile. Your comments certainly don’t display any maturity.
Posted by blairbar, Monday, 8 February 2010 4:49:02 PM
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Sorry, Missus, you and I inhabit different planets.

When we lived in an Aboriginal community back in the seventies, of course some kids were happy and cared for, but I don't recall seeing much happiness in the other kids scrounging for food in the bins, nor much gaiety in their endless arguments, although their use of language was both colourful and imaginative.

I do recall waiting for a friend one winter's morning, while his kids were hungry and crying: their mother got out of bed to cook up four chops [:)] - and took them back to bed [:(]. The kids were eventually fed by their grannie: one weetbix each with cold water. So the kids learn self-esteem, how ?

Another time, we all listened for an hour or so to a mother down the street flogging her kid for pinching her Easter egg, as she reiterated repeatedly. Motherly love and value as a human being ?

The toddler crying in the street looking for his mum one late afternoon, while his drunk uncle staggered past: happy ? Caring ? Yeah, right.

You probably need a bit more than an afternoon's visit, Missus, giving out old clothes to the natives.

Joe Lane
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 8 February 2010 4:52:15 PM
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Loudmouth I live in the Far North, do not patronise me.

Like I said they are DIVERSE. Even locals here talk down about NT communities. So most I have seen are happy when young, very happy and you offer such a awful horrid insult to their parents, disgusts me. I lie so that means they are all awful parents..omg those damn stats again.

Blair bar

I studied Bus.Maths and Stats when I did my business degree and did ok when most lost the plot on that unit, so again do not patronise me with 5 minute google learning exercise. Seems everyone is an expert these days on google 101 rather than substance.
Posted by TheMissus, Monday, 8 February 2010 5:13:22 PM
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Thanks Missus
You certainly answered the points I raised in my comments. The reason I put up that definition of Statistics was to try and avoid confusion over the meaning of Statistics.
I was wrong; you are not a juvenile, just an ignorant adult.
Posted by blairbar, Monday, 8 February 2010 5:35:15 PM
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As I wrote, Missus, 'of course some kids were happy and cared for ... ' and of course some parents would go through flood and fire to make sure their kids were okay. But the reality is that many wouldn't, they don't seem to give a toss about their kids, except insofar as their existence (if it could be called that) might contribute to the fortnightly income.

Meanwhile, 25,000 Indigenous people have graduated from universities, with another 25,000 by 2020. They will tend to raise kids who are loved and guided to seize equal opportunities, usually through higher education, and they will know next to nothing about the vast panoply of entitlements which would keep them locked in the golden cage of welfare, and be thankful for it.
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 8 February 2010 8:56:08 PM
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It's nice to be able to agree with blairbar for a change :) I particularly agree with his last comment.

Also, Loudmouth's comments are pretty well spot-on, too.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Tuesday, 9 February 2010 8:04:23 AM
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Everybody says there is this RACE problem. Everybody says this RACE problem will be solved when the third world pours into EVERY white country and ONLY into white countries.

The Netherlands and Belgium are more crowded than Japan or Taiwan, but nobody says Japan or Taiwan will solve this RACE problem by bringing in millions of third worlders and quote assimilating unquote with them.

Everybody says the final solution to this RACE problem is for EVERY white country and ONLY white countries to “assimilate,” i.e., intermarry, with all those non-whites.

What if I said there was this RACE problem and this RACE problem would be solved only if hundreds of millions of non-blacks were brought into EVERY black country and ONLY into black countries?

How long would it take anyone to realise I’m not talking about a RACE problem. I am talking about the final solution to the BLACK problem?

And how long would it take any sane black man to notice this and what kind of psycho black man wouldn’t object to this?

But if I tell that obvious truth about the ongoing program of genocide against my race, the white race, Liberals and respectable conservatives agree that I am a naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews.

They say they are anti-racist. What they are is anti-white.

Anti-racist is a code word for anti-white.
Posted by Rutherford, Tuesday, 9 February 2010 6:52:46 PM
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I think that Rutherford's comment above about "whites", "blacks" and "races" is a very good example of how the expression of RACISM is an everyday occurrence at OLO.

Rutherford might also like to consider the difference in the colonial histories of Belgium and the Netherlands on the one hand, and of Japan and Taiwan on the other. Hint: former colonial powers tend to attract immigrants from their former dominions.

Particularly in the given examples of those less than glorious former imperialists, I think that it's a case of chickens coming home to roost.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Tuesday, 9 February 2010 7:20:58 PM
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Each society has its own word for HERESY!

Communists called all HERESY! fascism. Fascist Italy called all HERESY Communist.

Today, under the Politically Correct tyranny, HERESY! is called HATE! or “racism.” Nobody wants to try to deal with a point like the one I made, so they start demanding that nobody say it, just like any other tyranny does. They call people who speak HERESY! names.

You Political Correctness fanatics are playing a very old game.

When you call people names who disagree with you or scream Hate or racism, a.k.a., HERESY! it says nothing about the point we heretics make.

But it tells us ALL about YOU.
Posted by Rutherford, Tuesday, 9 February 2010 8:59:16 PM
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"ongoing program of genocide against my race, the white race,"
There is no white race, black race, brown race, yellow race or green race.
Rutherford save your ignorant rants for the next meeting of the KKK.
Posted by blairbar, Tuesday, 9 February 2010 9:39:34 PM
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What rubbish CJ. I can't remember in which of the countries from which our immigrants & illegals are now flooding, we had our colonies. Perhaps you could remind me.

The destinations of these people are those which have the higest welfare payments. Welfare is the draw, & the desirability of the destination is pro rata to it's level of welfare.

I would like to know how it is, that many of them, after gaining Oz citizenship, can return to their country of origan, & live very comfortably on our welfare. Welfare that should have stopped, 6 months after they left the country.
Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 9 February 2010 11:05:31 PM
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Blairbar

'There is no white race, black race, brown race, yellow race or green race.'

Exactly. The concept of race is made incoherent by reality.
Posted by ozbib, Wednesday, 10 February 2010 9:56:25 PM
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You're right Ozbib, but the concept is made 'real' by a host of social factors, power inequalities, the degree of inclusion or exclusion from mainstream society, and thus either participation in or marginalisation from society, from daily economic life, from interaction with people outside one's network.

Phony as it is, the notion of race is maintained by markers such as skin colour, which are exploited to maintain those power imbalances. In the case of Indigenous people in rural and remote areas, those markers are used as excuses to marginalise and segregate - blatantly, on the part of the Right, subtly on the part of the Left.

And many Indigenous academics and bureaucrats are guilty also of re-instituting and perpetuating the re-colonisation of their own people, of de-skilling and disempowering their own relations, all for their grubby careers.

We have to ask: who benefits from Apartheid and the contemporary forms of neo-colonialism, which exploit white racism as reason to divide Black from white ? Who champions the cause of separatism for a powerless, unskilled and marginalised population ? Separatism under whose control ?

Joe Lane
Adelaide
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 11 February 2010 8:21:42 AM
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Hasbeen: << I can't remember in which of the countries from which our immigrants & illegals are now flooding, we had our colonies. Perhaps you could remind me. >>

History's not your forte, is it Hasbeen? I was referring to Belgium and the Netherlands, in response to Rutherford's clearly racist drivel. Australia, being a former colony itself, was created by expropriating its territory from its Indigenous owners and overpopulating it with immigrants - who mainly came from Europe until the 'White Australia' Policy was abandoned.

As far as I understand, the "illegals" are predominantly tourists of European descent who overstay their visas, as opposed to asylum seekers and refugees who are entitled to be here.

Well said, blairbar and Loudmouth.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Thursday, 11 February 2010 9:29:37 AM
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The racism against Aboriginals continues but it must cease.
http://makingmulticulturalaustralia.blogspot.com/2010/02/sexual-assault-by-aboriginal.html
Posted by ozzie, Sunday, 21 February 2010 1:44:48 PM
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