Whatever her family circumstances, Julie is now upper-middle class. Therefore, it is in her interest to insist that it is natural for educated people to earn so much more than most workers and that working class people must get an education to have a fulfilling life. What about protecting an Australia where blue collar occupations are well paid? The ALP was formed to ensure that workers got their share. If workers need to stop being workers to get ahead, the ALP has failed.

"That is why it angers me when talent is wasted and power or privilege are misused."

Don't look in the mirror Julia. Your government is doing a fine job of deceit and obsfucation.
Where is the open and free flow of information that was promised. Your government is every bit as tight fisted with the freedom of information exchange as any previous government you want to criticize.
Where are all the promised programs that were going to fix all the hospitals and infrastructure?
- fibre to the home is an uncosted, indeterminate, hugely expensive program for an unknown number of potential end users
- time has already gone by for the promised take over of the hospitals and all the gov't is doing is one more study
- many of our major highways are a shambles and unable to carry current traffic, is there any relief in sight?
- our mass transit is geared to a 1970's level of usage and is sadly unable to cope with today's needs

Sadly, Julia, your government does not appear to be any better than the broken promises and bald lies of the NSW labor gov't under Carr. But the unions (representing a minority of the voters) have benefited as have the illegal immigrant smugglers (bringing in future labor voters?)

What about the majority of Australians who have seen little of the promises? They are being ignored through the misuse of government power and privilege.

There are a few things that jump out at me after reading this piece and juxtaposing it with what actually happens in the real world.

It is in Julia's career interest to give herself a good cover story - what better than the daughter of a struggling Welsh family and a dinki-di Labor supporter to boot. It is the way political leaders are going - Rudd did it with the story of his family being thrown off a property, Latham did it with his portrayal of his upbringing in Western Sydney, John Brogden did it via the story of his abusive father and Malcolm's done it with his own family's poignant, personal circumstances. This is designed as a means to get the public to believe that pollies are really one of them. And there's no shortage of journalists that will sympathetically - and sometimes obsequiously - write up their stories. But are pollies the real deal? Or do they really believe what they say but fail at the implementation hurdle? There’s no way of knowing before they are put to the test. What I would really like to have, is an insight into what Gillard is actually *doing* behind the scenes, not what is driving her (for all we know it might only be her Comcar chauffer).

Benk makes a good point that leads me to say that the way Labor thinks about its "light on the hill" is wrong. It's clear from straight economics that you can't afford to pay the bulk of workers great salaries without losing other vital competitive elements in the system. Keating was probably right when he said people need to occupy jobs higher in the productivity food chain to be better off. But, of course, too many workers can't migrate across without the same wage fate befalling them and without Australia becoming reliant on manufacturing exports. So, there will always be the blue collar workers that are needed and they, in turn, need to be looked after by the ALP.

Gee, the Howard & Conservative bashers are rather conspicuous in their absence thus far.

Bruce,
"That is why it angers me when talent is wasted and power or privilege are misused."
I feel the same & my words are;
This is what angers me when talent is persecuted & incompetence is fostered in the wasteful australian Public Service & corruption is the order of the day. Yes it happens in other countries too but they have the extra burden of millions of more people to control. And here we hear people raving on about increasing the population. Can't even handle 22 mills for crying out loud.
Does anybody know what the Law Reform Commission does all day long & why even the Ombudsman's office, the CMC & the CJC put you from one person to another until a year has passed & the Statute of Limitation cuts in. Convenient wouldn't you say ?
I only hope the authorities grow bigger family jewels before those who have had enough are tempted to act.

Please PLEASE, Julia, spare us any more of the empty rhetoric about Australian values and fairness! There is no set of Australian values that we all embrace, though "pull the ladder up" is widely subscribed to.
From what I've seen so far, yours is anything but a reforming government; and if you were honest you'd admit that genuine, and desperately needed, reform is hamstrung rather than facilitated by the "social democracy" you pretend to cherish. Australia is very far from being a social democracy worthy of the name! Rather, the electorate takes its cues and momentum from the ruling middle class--as well as from the obfuscation and propaganda it generates to keep its conservative agenda firmly at the centre of political ideology.

Finally, if education really is your inspiration and you believe in Labor values, address the issue of religious infiltration in our state schools. It will be one hundred years next year since secularism was abolished in Queensland schools! I have four kids in primary school and I can tell you, from first hand experience, that Queensland State schools are inundated with fundamentalist Christians, who are infiltrating and proselytising via the chaplaincy programme as well as "Shine" and "Strength", and via any insidious means at their disposal.
Start your reforms by making Queensland a secular state!

I agree with much of the article. Society benefits when the most talented people can aspire to their goals through education, training and old fashioned experience. Fostering innovation and fairness, and to avoid mediocrity, these opportunities should not only be available to those with means.

We should not allow a sense of aspiration to diminish the value of other roles – whether it be aged care assistants, labourers,or waiters. We should acknowledge not everyone aspires to a 'career' (however defined, many happy to work in a job they are able to perform and hopefully enjoy. We don't have to call a coffee maker a Barista just to appreciate what they do.

These ‘working class’ jobs need to be performed. Better we raise the status of what are considered less skilled jobs (no job is unskilled) and ensure that the minimum wage is a living wage, nor should we adopt the growing mentality that these lesser skilled jobs are only for migrants from the Third World.

It is ironic a Labor Government continues to foster education debt in the form of HECS, exacerbated by the amassing of large personal debt to enter an unaffordable housing market. Most modern families will not be able to choose to raise their own children in the home even for a short time.

It is also ironic that by using aspirational politics to push a globalisation agenda and the push for education and skills training as money-making opportunities, we actually reduce the value of education.

What was wrong with tiering education to suit various occupations and skills? Why does every occupation require a degree, particularly when the value has diminished with shonky assessment practices in many universities? What was wrong with technical schools, Colleges of Advanced Education, Technical Institutes and universities sitting at the top focussing on academic excellence, research and innovation?

We have lost much under all governments in terms of the character and integrity of education and effects in the workplace.

Yes, education should be accessible to all but only on the basis of merit. We do education a disservice any other way.

Julia Gillard as Deputy Prime Minister of Australia and Senior Labor Lawyer in Australia, has a unique opportunity to make the greatest difference to the way Australia has been governed, since the Liberals took over the law in South Australia in 1927. No one gets a fair go, in any Court in Australia mainly because the Liberal Party are bastards, and they have a few friends in the Labor Party, since a club of Labor Lawyers was formed.

Julia is one of thirty Labor Lawyers, in the Reps, some of whom actually practiced for a while as solicitors and barristers, and is enormously capable. She is no doubt able to understand the Doctrine of Precedent, the binding clauses in the Constitution, and if a good argument is put to her, she should be able to recognize it. I found such an argument posted on the net here: http://www.community-law.info/?page_id=512

On reading these four cases, and the fifth referred to in which the late Lionel Murphy featured with an opinion, Julia will see that Australia has been subject to a widespread and systematic attack upon the civil population of Australia by State governments sponsored and influenced by State based lawyers.

I am a Christian as you all know, and when I read these cases I felt terribly sad, and disappointed that our Christian leaders, have been totally lazy in explaining the Christian roots of Australian law. The seminaries of Atheism and secularism, established to brainwash our young, at Universities all over Australia do not teach this connection, and because of that we have no fair go anymore.

I am reminded of Frederick Forsyth’s book, The Dogs of War, in which a small force of four hundred commando’s freed a country from oppression, much as Zimbabwe needs to be freed. Let loose the dogs of war, and stop protecting the oppressors hiding behind State Legislation. The dogs who should be keeping the cattle in the federal paddock, and maintaining the electric fences are the Australian Federal Police. If dear Julia will just let them do their job, upon request from oppressed Australians ?

In her position as education minister Julia could really make a difference.
Children need to learn to think clearly and a trial in Scotland in 2001 showed just how that can be achieved.
In the trial it was shown that just one hour per week of discussion of open ended questions introduced via a story or play led to an average increase of 6.5% in IQ scores, a major change in the communication between students and teachers in both directions, and substantial improvements in student behaviour both in and out of class. The class teacher in effect acts as a discussion moderator to ensure politeness and mutual respect between the participating students.
Clackmannanshire school district is now introducing the concept to preschool ( children 3 years old) probably because education authorities there think this is effective early intervention for children from disfunctional family situations.
A report on the Scottish trial is available at;
http://www.rotherham-gt.co.uk/docs/p4c/impact2.doc
At the moment, in NSW, the Education Minister is facing opposition from a religious body to a trial run of just such a system.
Why would anybody oppose a benefit which brings improved intellectual ability to each child and improved behaviour to the classroom?

Oh dear Jules, you forgot to mention how you were so keen to bring about social change that you joined the Socialist Left, now left-right-behind, as with Tanner and all those other so-called leftwing pollies who share the red and green seats of power with you.

I like these lines, "I went to state schools. There is no way in the world that mum and dad could have afforded private school education".

That one shows us all how you would have gone to a private school if your parents had had the money.

How much better for the image it would have been to have said that you went to state schools because your parents had well-developed senses of social justice and knew that public schooling in Australia had been one of the defining features in the style of democracy we have baked up here.

And this, "We didn't come from a family where it was natural to go to university, but my parents were always very keen to get us to be the best that we could. It became possible for me because of the excellent state school funded by a Labor state government"... yes, well those days are well behind us all are they not, with state ALPs all trying to out Liberal the Liberal Party with their un-ending support for private faith schools... "and because Gough Whitlam, Labor prime minister, removed upfront university fees", yes, well, clearly Jules is so young she has never heard of the Dawkins Reforms that stripped all that away.

Or is Jules going to take us back to a better university system? Hardly with what she has managed so far.

This article would have been better not written. Julia Gillard would be better engaged in the PR industry with Hawker-Britton than pretending to be the saviour of education, or anything else.

It's a shame her parents didn't just move down to Cornwall, where the Gulfstream brings the warm weather her condition demanded.

They could have saved 10 quid to put towards her education.

You are right Julia Gillard and you stick to you ideas and ideals. It is wrong that people cannot get the education their talents deserve.

I was lucky. My father was taken out of school at the age of 13 to work in a shoe shop. He had been top of his class which included a future reserve bank governor of Australia. He was not bitter about his lost opportunities but he made sure that my sister and I were given every opportunity and we became the first in our extended family to go to University. I think I have probably been able to contribute more to society than my father even though he had more innate ability. (He by the way was always a liberal voter).

Most people in Australia want is that noone is not held back by the lack of resources.

I know you have the political realities to face but we must continue to support public education and we should ensure that it is resourced at least as well as the top private schools. If people want to use private education that is their choice but if private educational institutions put more resources into education then the public education system should match it.

So we should set our education funding not on the basis of what the government thinks it can afford but so that our public schools can compete with the best resources private schools. If rich people think it is worth spending the dollars on their children then society should spend at least as much on the rest of our children.

Here then is a challenge for you. Make it your aim that ALL schools in Australia achieve about the same level of funding and increase the levels of public school funding to match the average of the top 20 highest funded private schools in Australia. If they increase their total funding then you increase the total funding of public schools to match.

There is by the way a method of doing this that need not necessarily cause budget blowouts.

Fickle Pickle, you seem to be unaware of how private school funding works.

The bulk of it comes from public taxes.

Private schools get more than all the public universities do.

Then they can rort taxpayers with their tax-free funds for buildings.

Not to mention being able to salary sacrifice school fees, and saving more personal taxes.

Or having the family trust avoid taxes and pay the fees.

Did I mention the billions, literally, in forgone taxes that flow freely to religions with their 'faith' schools?

Or the fact that once tax monies flood into private schools, there is no need to account for how the public monies are expended... unlike Indigenous peoples in the NT and now Brisbane who are micro-managed in their spending of tax dollars.

And this excessive largesse from taxpayers does not magically translate to better teaching.

Taking your funding route would see the misnamed private schools, actually parasites on the public community, gaining even more funding than they currently do, as they demand parity-in-the-gap to prevent any 'catch up'.

By all means, let us allow 'private' schools, and let the parents who send their children to them, pay for them with cold, hard, taxed, cash.

But why not start taxing religions, and investing those wasted forgone public monies into public schools?

Don't be fooled by Gillard and Rudd. Neither is interested in improving Australia's education systems, anymore than Howard and his cronies were.

Having perused Gillard's patronising swill once again, I regret that I responded at all thoughtfully. Isn't anyone else insulted by this kind of puerile rhetoric. At least statesmen and women of yesteryear adopted a tone, and couched their hyperbole, in a form that didn't assume we would be moved by unpalatable content. Bereft of anything inspirational to say, the deputy prime minister attempts to make a dog's breakfast look like haute quisine. One cannot help but be cynical; one becomes impatiently cynical, even of the cynical media and its naive deconstructions of the government line: spin spin spin!
And I've been a Labor voter all my life!
But this is curious...
Is Gillard conducting an inpromtu poll of her own? ...Something's afoot!
I'll buy the rationale, then. I agree; I've never understood why the child of a rich person deserves a better education (or healthcare) than the child of a battler. So what is the proposal? Abolish private education/health? Bring in progressive taxation to fund equality? Bring in the guillotine? Excellent!
Or is it a smoke screen for procrastination on global warming--something with which to carry the next election.
I have no doubt Labour wants to have the courage of its convictions, but what can it do in opposition? rings out the silent retort.
An early election, to test the water, again. Four more years in power; then, Rudd might decide to take a plunge!

You know, I was brought up in a working-class, Labor voting family, too. We also valued education and hard work; Mum & Dad worked hard to give us the opportunity to finish High School and go on to University. I voted solidly Labor all my life ... right up until the 2007 election.

To quote the inimitable Jack Marx:

"I now find myself disliking the Rudd Labor Government like I've never disliked any before it. What irks me most about this is that I think I despise it not because it is witless, or arrogant like Howard's Liberals, but because it is so clever - perhaps the first Government in our history smart enough to know how stupid Australia really is, bold enough to openly exploit that stupidity, and contemptuous enough of the intelligent minority to care not a hoot what they might think of it all. "

Blue Cross,

I am fully aware of the funding arrangements of private schools. Start with the objective - equality of opportunity for all children. Now work out how this can best be done. Here is one possibility.

Set the benchmark for how much money we need per child - which can be estimated from the amount of the top 20 private schools. Now work out a method of increasing the amount of money to bring the amounts into near balance. Finally give responsibility for expenditure to each school and of course require that all schools who receive any government funds report how much money is spent per child.

Any school or parent that "circumvents" the rules has their funding from the government reduced.

A critical part of the system is the allocation of some of the money to children who then "purchase" their education. The amount of money given to children for education will depend on the school they attend. The money to children comes from zero interest loans which are notionally paid from future taxes paid by the child when they are an adult. They do not pay any extra tax as with HECS but to keep the bookkeepers happy we keep track of the loan repayments.

If a parent pays extra from their own pocket for a child to attend a private school then the amount of money contributed by the government to the child or to the school attended is reduced.

While this might seem to be difficult to administer it is actually quite simple and we do not have to do the whole nation to begin with. We can start with schools in our most severely disadvantaged areas and learn how to do it. The Feds do not have to get agreement from the states as they can do what they like with their money and in fact the State schools are treated in the same way as private schools - just with a different owner.

Gee its George Orwell all over again. There are so many inconsistencies and contradictions in the article its hard to know where to begin.

Firstly, she is angry about the Australian Education system (which allowed her to succeed) because her father had problems early last century in another country.

Secondly, she was able to succeed and become Deputy Prime Minister from a working class background and Public school (as many have before and since) yet believes the system is unfair to people like her.

Thirdly, her statement that individual effort and responsibility is what makes her Left not Right is quite bizarre considering the Labor Party is well known for giving a leg up to all their mates to the point of corruption and also for their attempts to redistribute the wealth of those who have put in a huge effort in many to those who haven't.

Fourthly, and perhaps most Orwellian is that all these issues are HER REPSONSIBILITY AS THE ELECTED LEADER and MINISTER for EDUCATION yet she has done nothing. Money is being spent on schools in a most haphazard self promoting fashion by the Labor Party yet the major educational issues remain.

What happened to the "every child gets a computer" promise? Sorry to mention it - we were supposed to forget about that one.

There are some very good comments on this thread. Re-reading them the point that sticks out is the meaning we give to 'injustice'.

Most reasonable people (even the Liberals) would agree that opportunities should be accessible to all, however the implication is that those in lower paid jobs are somehow something to be despised. That we all must aspire to greatness or higher education.

The Labor Party should be more concerned with reducing the gap between the lowest and highest paid so that workers at all levels are able to function and contribute to society.

"Driven by indignation at injustice"? Julia puhleeease!! You have kept in place draconian anti-worker laws from the Howard regime. You have defended those laws and spoken contemptuously and dishonestly about construction workers at the ACTU Conference. Now a bloke who had the temerity to draw attention to safety issues on an Adelaide job site, and the even greater hide to refuse to attend a secret interview with your "tough cop on the beat" is facing a mandatory six months in gaol. I'm indignant. You're not.

As for education, all your "reformist social-democratic" vision is focussed on the extremely reactionary and totally screwed up policies of Joel Klein, Arne Duncan and the failed practices of Teach for America. Take a good look at the research.

Correction: my earlier post should have said "imports" not "exports".

>>The Labor Party should be more concerned with reducing the gap between the lowest and highest paid so that workers at all levels are able to function and contribute to society.<<

Pelican,

I agree. As there are always the "price takers" and "price makers" in society, a significant socialist element has to be there to represent the former. However, it should only operate as a counterlever to the equal and opposite forces of individualism. In other words, one without the other is bad news as it leads to suffocation and death (in the case of excessive socialism) and atomisation of society (in the case of excessive individualism). What we want is a smooth - not lumpy or piecemeal - balance between the two.

Julia Gillard as Minister for Education should start by educating the Australian Federal Police on their legislated role as fair and independent enforcers of the laws of the Commonwealth. The Crown they wear on their uniform, and on their badges, means they represent the Governor General in the general community.

S 61 Constitution casts the duty on the Governor General to: the execution and maintenance of this Constitution and the laws of the Commonwealth. S 8 of the Australian Federal Police Act 1979 says they have a duty to; the provision of police services in relation to: (i) the laws of the Commonwealth. The first Law of the Commonwealth is the Constitution, and every time a Judge sits without a jury he is an offender. Julia would not have had to smolder with resentment through eleven and a half years of shabby Liberal Party Rule, helplessly leading protests against workplace legislation, if she had not been miss-educated by her university.

Lionel Murphy said in 1984, If these laws would produce an inconsistency, then one prevails; the other or others are not law. A copy of the passage is posted here in this article: http://www.community-law.info/?page_id=238 Laws made by a single Judge or Magistrate without going to a higher authority, for permission to make them are not law. The English stopped single Kings or Judges and Magistrates making binding law with the Magna Carta. Almost every prisoner in any Australian Gaol is imprisoned illegally, because the Magna Carta made it the jury’s prerogative to both find guilt and set the sentence. This is part of the Constitutional Law miss-taught at university.

Even Parliament is subject to the Constitution. It exists because of it, and is confined by its principles. One of the things I love about KR was his commitment made on the 7th August 2006, in Parliament House, that his government would work within the Constitution. He was prophetic, because he had not yet even become the Leader of the Opposition, but was saying: I am willing to step up to the plate. Let the Federal Police loose, as educated enforcers

im reluctant to reply[as i can read a piece that was writen at least impart by pr...or veted via other agency...anyhow the flow dont seem like how others report you to be

im not sure about this format..clearly some will think to advise you[or think you actually read this stuff..others may use it to lobby[as my friends in nimbin have...

i advised them that the divergent state laws make the law subject/subserviant.. to federal juristion..but there is no fed regulations for drugs..and conclude my suppoting their lobby...for sanity..where docter are accountable for drugs..not police

over/of this plant deemed a drug..[that 20 out of 21 plead guilt to ...at first court appearance for simply possesing..a plant[that while living is a fixture...and harvested a healing medicinal fungable...for free pain relief

[with no adverse reactions like pescrption drugs[that kill the equivent to 3 jumbo jets per day...in usa alone...deasd...by perscribed adverse reaction..[resulting in death,from docter perscribed drugs

...wont get into the state of the workers teeth...nor those moralising sin taxes,..or the deception to get the new carbon credits into the imf controled banking system..nor the theft of our silver coin in 66..nor the takeover of the fed by bankers etc

as i allready told that to kev/wayne..tell em johan said hi...when god gave us all plants bearing seed..[gen1;25]...

who is this..who wars upon the people of the plant...via contractual deception..under the act[under the constitution to control the acts of our public servants...not police the people...indeed as per issiah...set the drug war prisoners..and their god gifted plant..free..please

luv ya jules

ps im a dutchie..one foot on the waters..the other plugging the dyke..born aussie..educated in dutch,,,smoking the flax..i..refuse to quench..you cant do worse than howhard

Julia Gillard states that injustice makes her angry. Good on yer Julie. Salmond on the Law of Tort, a famous textbook on law said the law relies on anger for its enforcement. Anger is a gift and anger brings about change for the better. The States are all bastards and the Commonwealth should get very angry with them. Unlike the Liberal Party which is simply an extension of the State Liberal Parties, the Labor Party has become a National Party. It had to intervene in Queensland to ensure that they did not stay permanently in opposition. It did, and it wrested power from the Conservatives. The Commonwealth must now extend that intervention to policing. Every time a Commonwealth citizen is murdered it should be a federal concern.

Every time a Commonwealth member faces a court, the Australian Federal Police should be there. They should be there to keep the bastards in the legal profession honest. The democrats are history. Bring on the Australian Federal Police. There is no Statute of Limitations on serious indictable offences. S 15B(1) (a) Crimes Act 1914 ( Cth) provides that a prosecution for any offence that carries a penalty of more than six months may be commenced at any time. It is now forty years since injustice was enshrined as law in New South Wales, by the Supreme Court Act 1970. Every Judge and Magistrate in New South Wales became an offender upon the proclamation of that Act.

In real legal terms, no judgment made or proclaimed without consent, has been legal in Australia since 1900. Every prisoner should be given a choice, repent and be freed with an undertaking never to offend again, or go before a jury and have your sentence reviewed. Every civil or criminal ruling made without a jury since 1970, should be open to revue, and all these stupid tribunals established to deliver so called justice should be disbanded.

Get as angry as you like Julia but don’t waste this powerful emotion. Do something about it, and have the Australian Federal Police enforce access to justice, without fear or favor

Julia Gillard, you are the Federal Minister for education in the education revolution
Julia can you explain then why a child removed by an agency of your Labor Party in NSW has failed to supply my son an education
My son entered grade 7 (High School) doing reading and spelling from grade 2 and doing his maths from grade 3
Further indignation of injustice
Care Application in wrong name
The person that signed documents as a DO of DoCS not even a delegate
The witnesses related to personel at the office that has my son's case
The Solicitor sacked by the parents turns up as the child rep
The child rep is taking his instuctions from DoCS
The list goes on and on
Julia your office has been contacted in relation to this case in the past 18 months
The Labor Party of NSW has had 9 years of representation made to it still nothing the lies have continued injustice you say
I say outright criminal
Thanks All have a great life from Dave

Here's a much simpler idea Pickle.

Fund public schools adequately, make them a human size rather than the sausage factories they are becoming with thousands of students, place them around the community within easy walking or cycling distance to students homes, require teachers to operate in a professional manner and pay them accordingly, do away with the archaic notion of teaching as a vocation and bring teachers up to 21st Century standards with similar working conditions and wages as other public servants, ensure all public schools are secular, ensure they teach students to think, as well as the usual grab-bag of economic drivers that most people misunderstand to be 'education', introduce 'the arts' as a central element rather than a fringe and frowned upon activity, encourage parents to engage with their children's schools, reduce public funding to private schools over time, insist on a far better system of training teachers than any of the universities currently offer, insist on teaching staff engaging in 'continuing education' as a lifetime activity themselves, and requiring a PG Masters qualification, at least as a general indication of a commitment to this at the HOD and above levels.

Forget the Liberal Party voucher systems, forget holding up 'the best private schools' as an example to follow.

Which private school should it be anyway- Kings in Sydney or The School of Total Health and Education in Qld?

BIS, or a Steiner school?

What if a selective state school was 'better' than the 'top' 20 private schools?

Or an 'ordinary' state school for that matter?

The starting point, what ever is done, must be with public schools, and some honesty from our politicians, such as Gillard, who has no intention whatsoever in having any sort of 'education revolution' that would be worth spilling blood in.

Peter the Believer
Do you honestly believe in your posts if so then why not do something about it?
From your posts it seems as if you are a member of the Queensland Legal Profession then why be apart of a Fraternity that is prepared to continue that which is Illegal that was commenced in NSW?
Elements of the Legal Profession here in Queensland are prepared to get me at all costs just to keep a child from ever talking to his father again
What have these people got to hide and Why?
Many of the people tied to this case of my son have dubious pasts which give rise to serious concerns for any father especially when the father is not allowed to even talk to the child
Abduction and Kidnap are serious crimes it leaves a lot to be desired when all that come in contact with my Son's case are prepared to dismiss all of this and prosecute the father of the child
All that have come into contact with this case has now withdrawn because of "ETHICAL REASONS" then where are thier ethics when it comes to the complete cover ups of serious offences
Thanks have a good life from Dave

Blue Cross

We have the same objectives. I propose a mechanism to achieve them. The mechanism is a way to get more money into schools that is politically acceptable. I am NOT proposing vouchers but I am proposing a way that children can pay the extra money to resource schools appropriately. How the money is spent then becomes a matter between the parents and the school. The money I propose is tied to the school not to the child.

Our current system is one where those who can afford to pay extra for more and better resources do so and I make the assumption that more resources (money and assets) will mean that schools can do a better job because they have more choices in what they do.

You make the mistake of suggesting how money could be spent. To me that is an issue between the parents, the children and the school.

I am proposing a way for ALL schools in effect to be able to charge fees. I am putting a limit on the amount of fees a government school can charge by arbitrarily setting it at the rate of the private schools. I arbitrarily choose the highest fee paying (top) schools but you can choose something else. I then proposed a way for the money to be obtained for "no cost" to the government.

What the school, children and parents do with the money is NOT my business. The things you suggest are possibilities but I suggest it is not a good idea for the government to provide services instead of money. We tend to waste money when governments decide the details - as with the computers in schools program and as with a "hall" for every school latest initiative or with Howards a flag pole for every school.

Please read more carefully. It will achieve your objectives.

<<A sense of indignation has always burned in me about what happened to my father.>>

Sounds like an unresolved issue to me. Why does Julia need to give a reason or an apology for her values? As Deputy Prime Minister of Australia, she needs to be absolutely secured in who she is, not craving indulgence for her ideology.

I’m more concerned with the ability of Julia in particular and the ALP in general to actually deliver something, anything.

We have seen Petrol Watch, Grocery Watch, Binge Drinking Watch, and Obese Watch as part of the 24hr spin cycle.

Fair Work is looking more like Work Choices every day, except for pandering to the minority workplace interests of Trade Unions.

The Education Revolution currently comprises more computers that the States have had to fund because no one thought of the additional costs of software, system support, network integration or system maintenance and just how new assembly halls will improve education is baffling.

The “Sorry Day” has turned out to be just that, a sorry day, especially in the indigenous housing, finance and health areas.

The ETS remains an uncosted liability to Australia; the need to “lead” the rest of the world at Copenhagen is now an ideological priority.

Border Security is another Elephant in the room, not because of humanitarian or logistical initiatives, but because we created the “perception” for the people smugglers, that it was game on, Doh!

Federalism and the States is a one way street, the States get more public money and then tell our PM to get stuffed.

The county is mortgaged to the hilt and the debt legacy for many generations to come is horrific. The government has done the precise opposite of what it preaches to the public, spending out of financial hardship would cripple Australian households yet we applaud it from Government.

Whatever Julia and the ALP are doing (or failing to do), it’s working magnificently. The ratings are through the roof. Obviously the majority of Australians don’t look for results but love populist tokenism. It’s the NSW ALP all over again.

Spindoc..."Why does Julia need to give a reason or an apology for her values?" is an easy question to answer.... she has none of her own anymore, having ditched the marginal 'values' that membership of a) the ALP and b) the Socialist Left faction of it might have once indicated.

Like Tanner, Gillard has become as right wing as Craig Emerson or Paul Keating, or Latham, or the Ferguson crew for that matter.... not forgetting the abject incompetence of the 'shining star' of the SL, Jenny Macklin, who must surely realise that she is even worse than the 'orrible corporal who led the invasion of the NT with his racist plan.

And the entire ALP has slipped into being, as it was under Hawke, an excuse for business and the status quo.

And for Fickle, we'll just have to accept that we see issues differently. Charging fees in public schools is not the way to go. Public education is a public good, private education is just another commodity for private benefit. Public education is a subsidy to industry and the entire community, private education is a curse on the community.

And you have not explained how you'd decide what are 'the 20 best private schools' yet.

Use Julia's league tables?

Another Howard policy pinched by Julia because Rudd so loved the Howard values, both being such earnest and loving Xtians.

<<Driven by indignation at injustice>>..i must add that you put up the heading without much forthought...see the posters here react..chosing a more clever heading..would have solicited better response

so lets look at the heading<<Driven>>is a word that yells excessivly[and persistantly...of ten wisdom comes in wispers..but not alone are you chosing the firest mindset of the reader into the manarchial of driven..your driven<<by indignation>>>lol

my dearest clever julia...you have nothing to be indignant about...they fawn upon you like you were jesus himself/the golden child...lol...you poor indignant little helpless puppy

you are very/near running the cuntry..what cause have you to indignation..if you helples what of us useless eaters.....

admitedly im indignant that you rule..under..the bankers..that stole our silver/made govt pay ursury/intrest..lol on its own funds...given our bonds and ursury..yeah im induignant too

but you..could pass the motion to buy back the fed..under right of seignorage..you know constitutionally ONLY gold and silver coin is LAWFULL...not mere legal tender...you... have achieved greatness..far beyond your station.../you have recieved well because you acted against not at..injustice

Blue Cross

What I should have said was the top 20 schools in terms of amount spent per child per year including capital costs.

You are NOT reading what is proposed. You think I am talking about vouchers. You think that I am saying children get vouchers that they then spend. That is NOT what I am saying.

The "fees" are paid by the community through "loans". The loans are notionally repaid through the taxation system. In other words the objective is for every child to have near enough to the same amount of money spent on them no matter what school they go to. If the private schools increase their fees to parents then the state schools increase their fees. However, if you go to a government school then you notionally "pay" your fees through a scheme like HECS except that you notionally (your taxes do not go up) repay the loan from your taxes when you earn money.

If you decide to go to a school that charges fees directly and not through "loans" then the amount of fees you can pay via loans drops off.

I know it sounds strange but it is done this way to fit in with the book-keeping regime that our economic system imposes on us and we have to live with the current system where private schools gets money from the government. That is not going to go away.

From the article “individual effort and personal responsibility are fundamentally important, I also believe that collective responsibility and democratic action are necessary to ensure people can develop themselves and excel in all kinds of ways”

Well that really says it. However, where does “individual effort” and “personal responsibility” stand in the context of “collective responsibility” and “democratic action”.

Imho:
“collective responsibility” and “democratic action” can be the products of “individual effort” and “personal responsibility”

But “collective responsibility” is often the excuse for a lack of personal responsibility
And
“Democratic action” never encouraged an ounce of “personal effort”.

All that is needed for people to “develop themselves and excel in all kinds of ways” is the freedom to be themselves and lets face it, the socialist swill like to “regulate” to ensure that such freedom is ham-strung and curtailed at every opportunity.

As the son of an English railway worker, all I can say is Julia’s diatribe in pursuit of the myth of “social justice”, back-dropped with images of coal miners and pit ponies, is a load of sentimental tish.

This Labor Government should finish what Paul Keating’s government started and abolish the States, as judicial entities. The States of Australia, are illegal and dishonest in the extreme. Every day they break the law, and every day they have thousands of Australians in prison, many for minor crimes. These prisoners have been sentenced illegally, by people who have made an art form of breaking the law.

Thirty years ago, the Australian Federal Police was created, in the same year the High Court was neutered. What sort of a country is it that allows point two five of one percent to break the law every day. A careful reading of the Australian Federal Police Act 1979 does not disclose any impediment to its doing the job Parliament created for it. Its Time, Julia time to let the Australian Federal Police loose.

The Australian economy needs a boost. The biggest boost it could be given is to let the Australian Federal Police do its job. Dave has a son who is a virtual prisoner of DOCS, all because there are no courts in Australia. If he was given free access to any court, a place where democracy is openly practiced, and twelve people are called upon to exercise judicial power, as fair just and impartial finders of fact, in accordance with the National Competition Policy enacted by Paul Keating’s government, Dave would have his day in court.

S 45 Trade Practices Act 1974 was applied to all State entities by Paul Keating’s government. It bans exclusion, so it must mandate inclusion, and including 12 ordinary civilians in a civil court, is the very essence of democracy. When the famous Tea Bagging case was decided recently CJ French, described what a court is. This should be sufficient to mobilize the Australian Federal Police to make sure every court in Australia complies from now on with the Constitution.

They say there is no gain without some pain, but these changes will be for the better, and forever mark the Labor Party as the party that restored justice, where none has been available.

Col the Troll, Sir Trollalot

Not this turgid garbage again, surely?

At least come up with something original for a change.

>>Well that really says it. However, where does “individual effort” and “personal responsibility” stand in the context of “collective responsibility” and “democratic action”.<<

They are opposites as you rightly point out - the active and passive of the situation.

>>...the socialist swill like to “regulate” to ensure that such freedom is ham-strung and curtailed at every opportunity.<<

That's only taking the negative - regulations also keep the actions of people balanced in a community context. In an imperfect world, it's absolutely essential that someone does it. Or are you going to just lap up the fruits of such efforts while bagging the people who are doing it, Col? I believe genuine effort, in whatever context it is undertaken, has spin-off benefits.

>>As the son of an English railway worker...<<

Cough, splutter, what? So it's not just Julia making epiphanies, now?

I prefer to take a more holistic view of the situation. What the world needs more of these days is balance. NOT more polarised views and diatribes such as your own.

dont feel too bad jul;ie..but hey i got a non banker question for ya

its about israel[of course]..you lked a deligatrion there recently[when kevi was doing the gee 20]..please advise what they instructed you to do about aid and comfort to terorists

se obama had a question recently[he ducked arround a bit...it wasnt a difficult question[only how many nuclear armed nations in the middle east...hinting at israels 400 nukes..despite not signing a cetain treaty..that iran has signed[and appears to be following to the letter

but anyhow the main point of the question has arisen in speculation..of the surity[of one trillion plus in yanki aid...isnt allowable to non signees of the nuklear poliferation treaty..that iran has to..despitye them having not one nuke[nor the capabvility of refdining thye needed purety of poisen for their non intended /not sought nuke

see jules how much aid we send this rogue nuclear armed/non nuke treaty/racist nation..imprisoning its native peopole like we imprison our own..have you read that un report...

thats systamised genocide..by the state..[a rogue nuclear armed state/with four germain porpoise subs...a faux uinvading/de facto...state..

that sees free govt money from your govt..go to a rouge terropr state...by their deeds will we know them[and bne known..no time for indignation regarding that nation

but ...how about us ..did we sign the same treaty?
...so what your indignmation going to do about it..are we giving govt aid and comnfort to racists with nukes now?
going to put any presure on israel?
who do you serve?
you know i love ya right?

just letting you know
your as helpless..as we goys/goyum...
who dont own/..run a lot of it..cause we didnt take the mark

stop playing their game..
it has a planned armogeddon..
and faulse messiah's...its almost biblical...
but we live in the bibblical end times...

armogeddon aint so bad if you know you tried to stop it happening...not just followed the party line...to what end

your pulling the strings
not them

I'll try and get this on the right thread this time.

RobP
"However, it should only operate as a counterlever to the equal and opposite forces of individualism. In other words, one without the other is bad news as it leads to suffocation and death (in the case of excessive socialism) and atomisation of society (in the case of excessive individualism). What we want is a smooth - not lumpy or piecemeal - balance between the two."

I agree with you 100%.

The trouble with these debates is exactly as in your last post. The tendency for diatribe at the extremes of the "collective" and "individualistic" spectrums.

Individualism and entrepreneurship are necessary to foster innovation, new ideas and plain old hard work. But not at the expense of collective responsibilities to protect people like pensioners, many who have worked hard all their life, and ensure they are not living on or below the poverty line. And to ensure workers are not exploited in the pursuit of obscene profits.

I believe these two goals can fit together, with a balance of the right incentives and protections. It is not always easy particularly balancing vested interest groups from both the social and business sectors.

Probably we would never get it exactly right for the reason that human beings will never exactly agree on what is the right mix.

The frustration that an intelligent politician must feel is explained by aspirations like these.

Collective responsibility and democratic action are necessary to ensure people can develop themselves and excel.

How must it feel to be elected to Parliament, be surrounded by highly paid advisers when you are elevated to ministerial rank, and yet still ask that people assume collective responsibility and take democratic action. Collective responsibility is written into the Australian Constitution and in the three Acts that implement that Constitution. S 64 Judiciary Act 1903 makes the government responsible to the people, not just at election time, but in true democratic style, between elections, because it says: In any suit in which the Commonwealth or a State is a party the rights of the parties shall be as nearly as possible the same as in a suit between subject and subject.

The democratic action is in calling together a jury of twelve, to decide and adjust the rights of the parties. The Liberal Party has set out to destroy this basic principle, and the Federal Labor Party has legislated to restore them, but closet Liberals in the State Labor machines, have refused to accept the wisdom of their federal colleagues. This must be terribly frustrating to both Julia Gillard and KR. I know it frustrates backbenchers, who throw their hands in the air, and say they are powerless.

In the days before Police were invented in 1824, every community had a responsibility to keep the peace in its local area. If it did not, a collective fine was levied on that community and paid to the person whose rights were violated. That was the origin of what was called the hue and cry, because if a thief was not pursued a fine was levied.

To avoid democratic scrutiny, the Liberal Party abolished civil juries in the Federal Courts of Australia. When they created the Australian Federal Police in 1979, they nobbled them and made them a half a police force, by political interference with their functions. It is now clear from High Court decisions, that this is unjust

Indignation at Injustice
Should I be indignant?
1)Child removed from yard of parents by a person that supports an allegation that DoCS don't believe
2)The false representation of a trainee DO as to his delegation
3)Care application in wrong name and only the Court File altered
4)The Child representative sacked by the parents turns up representing the child taking instructions from DoCS
5)Perjury placed before the Court with the Attorney-General's Library verifying that Perjury
6)Fight for your child to where it is claimed by the manager of the DoCS agency that you know as much if not more than any Solicitor about the Child Protection Act of NSW
7)Learn to understand John Bowlby who is acclaimed as the most eminent man in his field of Attachment and Loss
8)Come to another State my son's year 2000 Christmas presents stolen no action taken
9)Solicitors argue that you can't do this and you can't do that then those Solicitors are told they are wrong on all points
10)Finally break where you can't remember from the start to finish of an act
11)Persued to the max while more offences committed against you with still no action taken
12)Then find out the last 21/2 years has been a deliberate act to keep you from your child so he can be with your ex and her boyfriend
There is much more that can be filled in between these few points
Indignant who is indignant? Injustice what injustice?
Thanks all have a good life from Dave

Pelican “The trouble with these debates is exactly as in your last post. The tendency for diatribe at the extremes of the "collective" and "individualistic" spectrums.”

You will note from my post I did not deny the merit of either “collective responsibility” or “democratic action”
Re ““collective responsibility” and “democratic action” can be the products of “individual effort” and “personal responsibility””

However, collective responsibility and democratic action are also used by the indolent and incompetent to grab their “share” of what they are not prepared to “work” for.

Like Margaret Thatcher said “no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbour.” http://www.rightwingnews.com/quotes/thatcher.php

We each have a personal responsibility to ensure we do not end up living below the poverty line.

Ultimately, every society based on collective responsibility has failed, from the small kibbutz to the monolithic USSR.

Libertarians are not anarchists, we believe in the democratic rule of law, to alleviate theft, fraud and abuse etc but we do not support the regulation-for-the-sake-of-regulation which seems to be the aspiration of the levelers.

Equal inputs never produce equal outcomes simply because we are all, first and foremost – individuals and being individuals means diversity both good outcomes and (as we see in the small minds like RobP) the product of sterile seed.

RobP regarding

‘Col the Troll, Sir Trollalot

Not this turgid garbage again, surely?

At least come up with something original for a change.”

You have just devoted an entire post to attacking me.

You could have tried to make some real contribution – I know, it is tough when you are so limited but instead of that you focus your entire attention on abusing me.

So RobP– dispute and challenge what I said.

Try and prove the fallacy of it.

When you can, I will be here to tear your argument apart….

but I suppose we should be thankful, at least using a computer keyboard, you are not challenged by joined-up writing.

hey again julia...got a link you might want..[or not..want to know of]
http://www.infowars.com/stream.pls

its providing a four hour analysis of the whole scam
i cant ''maKE YOU WATCH IT''

but there is much govt is doing that its not allowed to do,..like put us in debt..but thats explained at the other links

http://whatreallyhappened.com/
http://www.infowars.com/

anyhow in the old days you would have been telling us..know the carbon credit is about fully big busness getting tax from us direct...carbon credits..will have a value set by the same proffiteers that bought us debt swap derivitives,,

that in being underwritten..will collapse every major govt and busness...not able to make its own fiat..[money by decree..the fed really needs auditing

ps re afgan issue simply establish out posts..that buy opium..openly at double black marjet value..let them earn their living..live monitored to ensure saftey..then send in us hippies..as peace core tourists..there is more to the plan...but hey you lot are smarter than us mugs..thats why your super is in the bank

how come you lot got a wage-rise...i heard the guy..that didnt give us our due[minimum wage increase.....told his wife to drawout 10.000 cash..and hide it throughout the house....

when he heard of an ongoning bcollapse..aqint that insider trading..off confidential info?..or is this the norm...ok john appointed him..but still..ignore my rave and get a transcript of that first l;ink..and pass it though to kev/linsey and wayne

thanks doll...you make coffee...sorry just being cheeky

Col,

>>So RobP– dispute and challenge what I said.<<

I have already challenged your view. My problem is not with the content of what you say, it is with the DEGREE to which it is held. In particular, the way it leaves others with no space to put their view at all. Get that through your thick skull! The issue is fundamentally political in nature, not of whether what you are saying is right or not. I’ve said that before but you refuse to get/acknowledge it.

>>You could have tried to make some real contribution…<<

I did make a real contribution, you nong. Read the post of mine right after the one you quoted. Or are you one of those pedants who only writes back to someone when expressly written to? Achieving balance, which was what I was on about, means, amongst other things, getting compromise between people of diametrically opposing views. Your one-sided approach and lack of initiative in seeing the merits in opposing views, and/or of not having the guts to acknowledge that publicly, epitomises why we never get any balance.

The harder you one-sidedly push your view, the more you are destroying people with opposite views. You do know if you cause them to be destroyed – even indirectly – you’re on a suicide mission, don’t you? As I said to you before, you’re the Hans Grüber of OLO.

BTW, he was the “terrorist” in Die Hard who wasn’t really a terrorist at all, but was purely out to enrich himself no matter the cost to anyone else. The parallel is that you use your libertarianism as a convenient shield when what you are really after is a comfy life for yourself, no matter the cost to anyone else.

Now, I’d like to see *you* refute that. And I suppose you can add that to the list of “abuse” as well, you poor dear.

Col: "However, collective responsibility and democratic action are also used by the indolent and incompetent to grab their “share” of what they are not prepared to “work” for."

I agree with that particular statement Col but it should not be held up as the slogan for reducing social support infrastructure. There will always be the spongers and designing policy so that the spongers don't continue the cycle of dependency and abuse of the system, while not penalising genuine cases, can be very difficult.

Programs like Work for the Dole or the new Green Corps are some of the ways I think governments try to seek this balance and reduce the possibilities for those who would try and rort the system. The same goes for some of the training courses offerred to return people to the workforce.

Sometimes governments go over the top and we end up with cases where people undergoing chemotherapy being 'forced' to seek work and attend interviews. This is usually more of a stuff up than anything else but still needs to be factored into future policy decisions.

Pelican... you can deal with Col, but I am interested in this line you wrote here, 'Programs like Work for the Dole or the new Green Corps are some of the ways I think governments try to seek this balance and reduce the possibilities for those who would try and rort the system'.

Like many others, you highlight only the bottom end of society as rorting-central, and make no mention of corporate rorting, both the legal that passes as assistance to badly run businesses, like the entire car industry, the legal tax avoiders, their close cousins, the tax evaders, and all the others. Or the convenience of the old economists trick, a bigger rort than all the others put together, the invention of 'externalities' that never have to be accounted for by private industry but are passed directly to the taxpaying public.

Is there any bigger rort than giving tax free status to religions? Or turning the general field of 'education' into a commodity, so we end up with shonky private trainers who essentially steal from their clients with the official seal of approval from national training bodies? And, I have to be cruel here, many of our universities are in the same boat here, along with TAFE colleges.

Thinking that only the 'deserving poor' are capable of rorting is part of 'the joke' that our wealthy, and their sycophantic supporters, Gillard et al., like to keep telling so they are relieved of ever having to tackle anything that might threaten their power base.

Of course, Rudd likes to pretend he was never a neo-liberal, another form of rorting, while all the evidence shows that he has never been anything but one, never mind he is doling our tax cash out to dunderheaded voters who refuse to look towards, never mind beyond, the not-so-distant horizon.

This is rapidly becoming the scene of the next vast rort, the carbon trading scam, to be run by the same dangerous fools who run our stocks and shares industry, who have just brought the global trading system to the brink of disaster.

On other OLO subjects I have made similar comments to yourself BlueCross and agree wholeheartedley.

I was speaking more in the context of Col's comments and I don't think Col was referring to rorts at the big end of town. But I could be wrong.

Pelican “I agree with that particular statement Col but it should not be held up as the slogan for reducing social support infrastructure.”

You agree with what I said.

My post never attempted to address the level or degree or extent of support infrastructure.

To bring it up now is like you trying and add a caveat to what I said and, to be honest, that does not constitute a valid reason to disagree with what you have stated you already agree with.

So you I can only conclude, agree with me, which is sensible of you.

Blue Cross “you can deal with Col,”

Are you too grand to get your hands dirty?

To “shonky private trainers”… stealing from clients?

Maybe you could supply details because I know a private trainer and the stealing (demanding certificates despite failing courses and throwing acid over cars in revenge, is more the role of thieving clients than trainers).

Although I would agree with you, carbon trading will go the same way as European olive oil lakes and butter mountains.. .the source of criminal incomes from fraudulent documents.. and all courtesy of stupid governments and ineffective bureaucrats.

Pelican “I don't think Col was referring to rorts”

I was not referring to rorts at all…

Regarding rorts, I believe heavy gaol penalties and full restitution (even from family members where extorted wealth might have been hidden) are the appropriate response, be the “rorter” regardless they are from the top end of town or the more modest suburbs

RobP “My problem is not with the content of what you say, it is with the DEGREE to which it is held.”

That is, as you state, your problem,

So stop trying to make it sound like it is mine..

I suggest you go away and deal with your “problem” and come back with a clear mind.

As to the “degree” again I fail to see where any “scale of increments” has ever been a content of any post by any poster on OLO.

So if you are having a problem with the “DEGREE” to which I hold certain things to be true and right, you must hold similar problems with everyone other post on OLO… your own included.


I suggest you go an unmuddle your reasoning before bothering to post again


Such as “Achieving balance, which was what I was on about,”


Well “balance” is a toughie.


Especially when you walk around with a 45 degree list to starboard…

your intellectual and reasoning skills, such as they are, see the horizon as skewed, not because the world is uneven or unfair but because of your own personal, twisted perception.

PS there is something sad and pathetic when someone tries to be sarcastic and then goes to great length toi explain the basis of the sarcasm (re Hans Grüber ).

It seems to defeat the purpose… but I suppose you are used to comments like that and other like “over-extending your smart-arse ability”.

Col Rouge,

Well, there's not much point debating with you because you constantly move the goalposts. Never answer the question, but forever throw dust in the eyes of your opponents. That's not helping anyone at all or getting to the truth, but purely protecting your comfort zone. That, BTW, was what my Hans Grüber explanation was all about making clear.

Now, how about giving us a direct rebuttal. But only if you're good enough, that is. If you don't, I'm sure we'll all understand why.

Col
You are playing semantics. I agreed that there are spongers - fact of life unfortunately - but it does not mean that we should abandon support structures altogether.

You asked how far do we go? The trick is ensuring there are no, or less, loopholes for the spongers and rorters without harming those with legitimate claims. This is not always easy. Often you tweak one end of a problem creating an unforseen problem at the other end.

One example is those on disability pensions who are now required to enter into the workforce for an agreed number of hours per week. Not a bad goal given it also enables the disabled to be able to participate in mainstream life. The tricky bit is to ensure that those who are totally incapacitated are not forced to do work that they are legitimately unable to do. Or that the work suits the particular disability including travelling to work issues and the like.

One case I know of where an employment agent specialising in disability found a job for a few hours a week for a client but it turned out the client could not get to the place of employment. They could not use the bus and the cost of taxis outweighed the earnings they would have received for those few hours per week.

There has to be some commonsense.

The other aspect which governments forget is that many employers won't take on disabled employees without incentives or on a trial basis despite the lip service paid to equal opportunity employment - even in the public service.

Hey Pelican and RobP. You're right about semantics, Pelican.
It's interesting how two words so close in meaning have such different emotional impact.
Nearly everyone these days accepts we have to have Laws. Laws (theoretically) allow equality. Laws prevent the strong from exploiting the weak, and protect the innocent.
'Regulation' on the other hand, is not a nice word at all. I don't want to be regulated; it sounds like I'm being prevented from achieving my full potential.
Libertarians use this disparity in emotive impact in a very simple way. If a rule is good for Libertarians, then it is a 'Law'. If a rule is bad for libertarians, (restricts their ability to exploit others) then it is a 'regulation'.
The contemporary marketplace suffers from a simple absence of Law. The strong are not only allowed, but encouraged to prey on the weak and -ironically- in the process, deliberately undermine the competitive structure which underpins the greatest strength of the market system.
"However, collective responsibility and democratic action are also used by the indolent and incompetent to grab their “share” of what they are not prepared to “work” for."
Of course, there is a name for these people.
Investors.

Pelican “Col
You are playing semantics”

Semantics …. The study of language, symbols and logic.

Yes I am. Of course, this is a web site devoted to the expression of opinions recorded in English (Language) and based, at least in my posts, on “logic”. So semantics is the order of the day, unless you are thinking of going down the RobP path of “alternative enlightenment”, where small-minded ranting prevails or Grim’s inept sense of the legal.

“but it does not mean that we should abandon support structures altogether.”

But excessive governmental control of resources simply levels everyone to that of the lowest common denominator.

I think that people are potentially a lot more than the small perceptions of socialists and therefore, I would rather see them benefit directly from their own efforts than pretend that equality of resources produces equality of outcomes. Then the spongers would have nothing to sponge off and we would all be happy.

Like dearest Margaret said, there can be no entitlement without obligation.

The hoards, in places like Nimbin and other ghettos of “alternative life style” and the many who lurk in our inner cities should be required to stand on their own two feet, instead of looking down their noses at people who work in real jobs and pay taxes to fund their dole money.

I would further note, government is required to balance its budget, I know socialists think they can just print money but we have seen the consequences of that in the past, Keynesian economic theory is a crock of doggie-does, regardless that it infests economists in academia and government. Spending the entirety of national resources on the under-privileged would leave the rest of us destitute and unable to be taxed for anything.

What you call “balance” depends on perceptions and there are a lot of people on benefits who do not deserve them and could really be self-supporting, given the incentive of starvation as the alternative

Rouge,

You haven't told us what real work you do to earn your money. Like I asked before, have you set up a few bottom-of-the-harbour type tax evasion schemes for you business associates lately?

The only one looking down at people is you from your position of lofty "superiority".

Deliciously ironical, Grim, but way too subtle for the likes of Col and co, who can't seem to think beyond the Protestant work ethic--long since subsumed as the spirit of capitalism. It's incomprehensible to them that some people are not driven to live the bourgeois dream, that they actually despise it and prefer a spontaneous life, accepting a lower standard of living and the frowns of sanctimonious hypocrites as the price. These people, deemed bludgers both by the wealthy---all self-made men according to their conceits who, typically, have never soiled their hands with real "work"!)---and the ignorant sycophants of the system (and Today Tonight). These latter, poor workmanlike intellects are the real dupes, who treat the ideology that enslaves them like holy gospel and can't stand heretics.
As other posters have pointed out, the shiftless bludgers of the system are few and inexpensive compared to the rorters from the big end of town.
And among that omnium gatherum of disfunctional, rebellious types, there are some real treasures, who can hold my fascinated attention, at least, far longer than can those bores who prate about themselves, and rant and rave at anyone scorns the formula

We are a few miles from poor Julia's offering, or should that be, the poor offering from Julia?

Her office minder has stopped posting, satisfied there is no real opposition to her mindless waffle here as we all listen to ourselves spruiking, for ourselves, rather than addressing the matter at hand, Julia's burnt and rather tardy offering.

Never mind, what jolly fun we've had here.

Perhaps we all need a giant mouse ear welded to our backs, to better hear what our Master's say to us in such a forum as this?

Or maybe they could write something more worthy of their reputations, or, at least the reputations they'd like to think we see them cultivating?

My apologies, Blue Cross, you're right.
For me, the stand out issue of this article which has not been addressed, is that of adult education, despite the fact that the first three paragraphs are about the author's father, and his trials and tribulations as a working class stiff with limited education.
This touches on one of the main areas of change in this country over the last few decades, to my mind. Employers bemoan the fact that 'young people don't want to work', particularly at hard or menial jobs. When I left school -at sixteen- job satisfaction wasn't much of an issue; you were just expected to do what you had to do, and count the money.
I would suggest the people most depressed, and most stressed in our society are those who still have this 'work ethic'; the idea that 'life wasn't meant to be easy', do your your 40 hours plus no matter how much you hate it, and live for the weekends.
I'm quite certain there are many blue collar workers out there who would love to change their career path. Unfortunately, the ones who most desperately need further education simply can't afford it, as they are locked into low paying jobs, working long hours just to pay the bills.
In an ageing society where the pension age is being put back, adult education, or re education is an issue which can't be ignored. There are a lot of jobs, particularly in the blue collar sector, which simply are not suitable for oldies, which is partially why over fifties often find it hard to find jobs.
What is the Labor party doing to make it more affordable for us oldies to make -often necessary- career changes, through retraining?

Grim “Libertarians use this disparity ….”

Strange.

Libertarians believe we are all free to do whatever we want within the laws, not just ‘libertarians‘ but everyone.

It is the small minded envy burnt socialists and other peddlers of negativity who see “law and regulation” as an opportunity to prevent capable people from benefiting or being rewarded for achieving their potential.

As for “Investors” well it is like this… without “investors” to put faith into the future of their “investments”, the products “consumers” demand and pay for would not get made.

The point is, the world would be a better place if more consumers diverted some of their income from consumption to investment… some people call it having a superannuation plan…. Maybe you should try it – instead of waiting for poverty to beset you in your old age,

RobP – you still don’t get it, do you.

I don’t look down at other people, I just don’t pretend (like you) to need to be involved in their every action or concern myself over their every need, being a libertarian, I believe they are responsible and live or die for the decisions of their lives.

If they make good ones, I do not deserve to share in their credit.
Likewise, if they make bad ones, I do not deserve to share in their poverty.

You on the other hand seem to be obsessed with wishing me ill-will..

What a small, envious little grub you must be…

however, myself, being generous, I trust I will not step on you by mistake, should our paths ever cross.

Squeers “too subtle for the likes of Col and co,”

Grim is as subtle as a brick… and with a similar reasoning ability …

Grim “What is the Labor party doing to make it more affordable for us oldies to make -often necessary- career changes, through retraining?”

Of course, some of us see the benefit of education as a form of personal growth. You, Grim, think I and other tax payers should pay for your “personal growth”..... what a parasite you are.

Agree the adult 'edumacation' Grim.

Hard for Col to grasp, so it seems.

The ALP, like their predecssors, are doing SFA, in any constructive sense.

There are squillions of training providers supplying endless dodgy courses, remember the Indians?- and that seems to be the main objective of governments today.

To provide another private industry opportunity for scammers to get into, while filling the workforce with inadequately trained hopefuls, who employers have to reskill them (again) in the workplace.

It's part of the taxpayer funded subsidy, not to the personal growth of the person seeking training, sadly, but to the scamster running the 'College'.

The ALP isn't even interseted in assisting young people to get through uni or TAFE either, with sub-poverty financial support on offer to a few, and decreasing, number of students, while the children of the wealthier tax dodgers get the same free ride they always have.

Julia has failed even on that front, and has decreased the benefits below that offered to students by Howard.

Poor Col, mistaking training for education, like the goons out there who are designing our 'new' school programmes on similar lines.

Ensuring we get more Col's, barely able to grasp what goes on around them and unable to think beyond their own self importance and personal situations.

Col has an interesting view on what it means to be a 'libertarian', which reminds me somwhat of the self-imposed isolation of Burma, or North Korea perhaps?

And of the Simon and Garfunkel song, 'I am a rock, I am an island, and rock feels no pain' or something very similar.

I wonder what he would think, as the unemployed and un-retrained oldie knocks off his house, pinches his beloved tellie, and flogs it for some grub... would he then be sharing in the failure of the oldie, and the 'libertarian' society that says 'up yours mate' to all and sundry when they seek help from others?

Remember the parable of the Good Samaritan Col, it'll do you good, and it was John Howard's second favourite parable, behind 'the Talents'.

"I don’t look down at other people..."
"What a small, envious little grub you must be… "
"... what a parasite you are."
No one could blame you for not reading your own posts, red.
The thing about investors is, they -strangely- always want to get back more than they put in. In fact, investors are rated by how big a difference there is between inputs and profits. Some of the most profitable companies in the world have 'invested' in African nations, for literally scores, if not hundreds of years, and removed billions of dollars of value.
Strangely, the nations in question don't seem to have benefited greatly from investors largesse.
Perhaps we should hang a sign outside Sydney Heads:

INVESTORS WANTED!
(only really dumb investors need apply).

As to red's last paragraph, once more he demonstrates his peculiar inability to even imagine anyone arguing -or even caring- for anyone other than themselves.

>>RobP – you still don’t get it, do you. ....

What a small, envious little grub you must be…

however, myself, being generous, I trust I will not step on you by mistake, should our paths ever cross.<<

I get it all right, Col. You're a real bucket of contradictions. I'll give you one thing - you are impossible to pin down to a particular point of view. You've got more moves than the karma sutra.

A hint though - pick a point of view and stick at it through thick and thin. Then we'll find out the real truth. Not like your "good" self, who is as tricky as anyone I've ever come across.

I could just as easily argue that you don't get it. For everyone that's doing well in economy-land, there's another that isn't for the simple reason that they put other things higher on their list of life priorities. Now, should people be turned into slaves, robots or carbon units just to stop the well-heeled from enjoying the high lifestyles they've become accustomed to? (Eg, I saw that Jennifer Hawkins was angling for a big contract from Myer for simply being her good-looking self. Now what's Jen achieved exactly that warrants the big pay cheque? How galling for people that have thanklessly done the hard yards for decades seeing that - now this ain't about class envy, as far as I'm concerned, it's about justice, merit and reward for effort. What does a libertarian like you think about that?)

I think it's about time there was another paradigm that eclipsed the endless growth, consumerism and importance of self in society that has the effect of turning ordinary working people into commodities.

>>You on the other hand seem to be obsessed with wishing me ill-will..<<

Just returning serve, Col. I'd say the score is about deuce.

i shouldnt say anything
[why am i hearing ...hear hear...echo]

but somehow im reminded of a simpsons episode
where they are on some talkback yanki show
that exposes the worst of human nature

anyhow an alian slept with marge..and maggie was born..is the gist
and as the alian and the homey simplton shape up ...marge utters some immortal words....somehow i cant push myself into quoting them...but condiser them said

its sad govt can do anything it choses...but yet continues the many past deceptions...bankers have financed all sides of every war...killing over 200 million dirctly...many more indirectly...by funding the machinery of war...not food or other human needs

govts ties to big pharma..and big petrol...our biggest govt cooorperate/welfare recipiants...do not serve the intrests of the people...the only govt service it to the people...

not multinationalist limited liability big busnes...and certainly not murdoch...who's control over media has seewn busines loyalty subsume accountability to the people

its time we heard the truth julia..its time leaders served the people...not their retirment plan...global warming is a lie...carbon tax is a subsidy to big business..and its time govt took back the fed

I meant to say: "... should people be turned into slaves, robots or carbon units just to stop the well-heeled from NOT enjoying the high lifestyles they've become accustomed to?"

hey jules
can you pass this through to kevin

please tell him the g 20 must announce it overnight
asp/get obama to do it in a state of the union
now..if posable

http://forum.worldfreemansociety.org/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=3039&p=18562#p18562

over-night remedy..for the finantial disaster..
under right of seignorage

the only legal constituted legal/tender is coin

thus the solution that comes to mind...sounds insane
but has karmic balance[irony]

teqniclly our former legal tender/silver coins..are now made from nickle..via treasonous frauds and massive collusions...but

BY..REVERSING the value...should quickly heal the wrongs
and all will forgive

see..the bulk of us coin is held by the poor

simply..VIA..govt..saying...all coins..are silver/gold..or bronze equivelent.to make fair and return to constituted law...as constituted by all nations

thus..the 5 cent coin...immediatly...redeems as 10 dollars equivelent...in fiat notes

one cent..[coin]..is hereby valued at 2 dollars..in paper fiat notes

lets discuss..thus quick cure
where overnight..govts say only coin is legal tender..!

one cent coin=2 dollars...immediatly
anyone presenting a coin must be advised..of the new law..or its theft

bankers are required..to return their nickle/coin for re-embursment in silver...equivelnt of values traditional value..[legally/constituted inherant..in coin..of these realms..immediatly....
as well as return all the faux coin/+securities

that will be issued as replacement...on the centenary of thier print date stamp...then convert into silver/gold equivelent

anyhow ask if you want more..of the vision

It is interesting to see the observation that the comments have at this point strayed a few miles from being relevant to the article. Given that, without seeking to divert would-be commenters to the General Discussions area of the Forum, I would point out that the post which first established this comments thread upon the index page was complained of as not being on topic and made the subject of a deletion request.

The deleted post was a non-politically partisan challenge to the Deputy PM to use her influence to secure due process at law on behalf of two believably innocent UK citizens facing the prospect of extradition without trial or hearing in the UK, to the US.

As such, I agree now that it probably was off-topic and the moderation decision to remove it justified at the time, but I thought it both resonated with the article's title and offerred Julia Gillard a golden opportunity to demonstrate her sincerity in terms of that title. I was particularly intrigued, then, when I saw this from poster 'The Blue Cross':

"Her office minder has stopped posting, satisfied there is no real opposition to her mindless waffle here as we all listen to ourselves spruiking, for ourselves, rather than addressing the matter at hand, Julia's burnt and rather tardy offering."

Interesting that someone thinks she may have had an 'office minder' on the thread. For anyone who is interested, the content of the original off-topic post can be seen reproduced in a series of three posts, commencing here:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3050#73355

If anyone does have a comment as to the resonance, relevance, or otherwise, of that challenge to what they see the D-PM as trying to achieve with her article, I'd be interested.

What has provoked this post has been the subsequent apparent blocking of pages on a .gov.au website that has occurred as a result of the monitoring of Twitter conversations relating to the extradition in question, a fact of potential interest to article readers.

Dear Forrest,
I’m still comparatively new to OLO and had naively thought it all to be merely banal—a pedestrian side-street in cyberspace—but now here you confront me with a nail-biting real-life mystery, intercalated within an equally exciting fictional narrative, what’s more! Well, to add some thickener to the soup, I suspect I may have planted the seed of suspicion in the glebe land of the blue cross myself!
Is it credible that Julia Gillard, miscast as DPM (she belongs on the set of Cath and Kim), does not have a twitching human nerve-centre plugged into this thread? Was her ‘gratuitous’ and ‘very umble’ offering really the cathartic exercise that drew a tear to my credulous eye? Was Julia, disillusioned with the cynicism of high politics, in need of a bathetic bath with the great unwashed? Or did she, it’s unthinkable, pay some poor slob to monitor our blatherings for anything novel?
But it gets better! OLO too is in the game, it seems; a free radical at liberty to influence and orchestrate (though of course inhibited by journalistic ethics) and censor our ostensibly anonymous representations—our personal details disclosed at the click of a mouse—though inviolably protected by the sanctity of the internet.
There has never before been such a banquet of entrails, which we spill on the boards of olo and other sites, for the PR machine to pick through—a wonderfully representative cross-demographic!
Rudd is a control freak, he uses everything at his disposal to stay ahead of the game; monitoring and utilising forums like OLO is definitely part of that.
Sorry to implicate OLO in this, but they also need to consider the ethics of their omniscient position.
Sorry too that I can shed no light on the mystery of that original, censored, post.

The Blue Cross “Remember the parable of the Good Samaritan Col, it'll do you good, and it was John Howard's second favourite parable, behind 'the Talents'.”

I remember it. Of course it is difficult to be a “good Samaritan” if your disposable income is taxed to pay for left wing bureaucrats and jobs for the union elites.

The more “disposable income” an individual has (aka lower government tax imposts), the more able he is to exercise his personal compassion and Samaritan inclinations.

The solution is smaller government, administering fewer regulations, requiring fewer civil servants and flunkies and leaving more money in the hands of real workers and investors to build worth while futures for themselves, instead of thinking that there is “security” in leveling people and believing in the words of slimey politicians who occupy the seats of power in self-serving big government

Grim “"I don’t look down at other people..."
"What a small, envious little grub you must be… "
"... what a parasite you are."”

Yes, I do not down on other people in general but when a grub demonstrates his individual grubbiness and parasitic expectations, I entitled to refer to him, particularly and individually, as such…

RobP “Just returning serve, Col. I'd say the score is about deuce”

Wrong… but keeping score… is just another of your failings

Ah dear Col, you cut me to the quick; am I too not worthy of a few epithets?
But this is embarrassing; should you be parading your execrable self around like this while our masters are watching?
Master Grim, incidentally, is your superior in everything but bank balances, I infer; perhaps you should appropriate him as a mentor--'twould exact an exorbitant price, I fear, but then you might, one day, be reconciled as equals in all things ... ?

When Chiffley was PM, the banks were under control by the courts. One of the payoffs for the massive financial support the banks gave to Menzies campaign, was to destroy the courts, and install lawyers as Judges. The first step was to gut the powers of the High Court by controlling who could access it. Before 1952, it was freely accessible to all, but since it has been a simple government public service backwater.

Menzies got his way from them by reminding them that any time he wanted he could prosecute them under the common law, and Crimes Act 1914 and they would lose all their pensions and entitlements. The only way a Judge can protect himself from either the State Governments or the Commonwealth, is by taking a jury verdict. The Magna Carta guaranteed both sentencing and the determination of guilt or innocence, was the prerogative of a local committee of 12 electors, called together in a political meeting.

No Prime Minister since has wanted to give courts back their political power. The courts could and did control banks. Now they can all be bought, and the highest bidder wins. The Legal Profession have degenerated into a form of Justice Brokers, who arrange deals between a Judge and the richest litigant present. This has made them really rich so it suits them to have a lawyer as a Judge. It is not great for Justice, but the legal professions attitude is I’m alright Jack, and the devil take the hindmost.

This takeover of the courts by banks is probably the greatest injustice of all, because not only banks, but big law firms have taken advantage of this takeover, as well as all State and the Federal Government. Instead of the Pope selling indulgences, or a get to heaven free card, a Judge now delivers a licence to sin, to all major offenders, without reference to a higher authority, which in a democracy is a panel of twelve electors.

It appears from rumors circulating, that the Australian Federal Police are investigating the Supreme Court in WA. Hope is at hand

>>Yes, I do not down on other people in general but when a grub demonstrates his individual grubbiness and parasitic expectations, I entitled to refer to him, particularly and individually, as such…<<

Col,

You must know you've got your head right up your arse. You've constantly yapped on OLO that people have individual free will to help others. OK, I'll put you to the test: what have *you* done to help others? What gives you the right to hector and lecture to people exactly? You dont know me from a bar of soap and I'm not a grub. But you are definitely a lazy sod who thinks he can bully others into his own point of view. A right tosser by any measure.

Just in case you try and bypass my central question: what have *you* done for anyone else with your libertarian hat on?

re those dispossesed in indonesia...thanks to govt inaction...and specific act...labor stood idoly by while the tamals were bombed into sub-mission...in what at the time was a clear oppression of a whole people...[indiginous?..peoples]

its sad how kevin calls on java...for it is this nation that has invaded hundreds of other ab-origonal natives....by usa aquesance/finance and arms...to hold that the japinese invaded..then the javanese continued to this day

west timor/east timor...its all a colluded deception about invading/colonising...and here the victims of extreemist genoside...is about the chickens coimming home to roost...and all they get is hard hearts

the labor left is dead or dying...it died...its as dead as the unspoken thousands mudered for land...hard hearts..yes kevin has become john....how-hard...and everyone else is following the right/wiing....party line....become collusive with right wing extereemist's globally

please dont pretend one party...is any different from any other party..the left/sheep allways was a sheep in wolves clothing..time to seperate lawyers..from lawmaking...church/state...is same as lawyers making laws...

but worse...lawyers stay loyal to judging the laws..their peers makeup

maybe its time to study..if..party loyalty can subvert loyalty to the common weal/and voters....any party line is affectivly treason..in running with the wolves...the left has turned sharply to the right[wrongly]..

also appart from rethinking party loyalty/treaonous to its people...maybe..its time to rethink the church/state thing..seeing as atheist's are forming...a political alliance...seeking govt funding/subsidy...lol...to form a god-free party line

seems the speakers payer...to the all mighty rod...isnt an accidental misspeaking...seems the black god/rod...is but one of the two pillars of the big buSINess/masons/lawyers/bankers/economists/medicine/israelteutonic/zionista/lobby..

subverting inherant god given rights..into a global/farce..with people statuted..under act..to serve the intrenched elites...with ever more tax manna..via statute/under act...via..law for lawyers proffit...created and judged../by lawyers...

no wonder law is written..so people cant get justice...its you and yours...then its just us...serving you...but you arnt listening..stopped listening to the great unwashed..so as to serve the perfumed elites

Peter the Believer
The Federal Police are investigating the WA Supreme Court HOPE IS AT HAND
Then the Federal Police need to investigate the Courts , Solicitors, and Judges of this State of QLD
It is criminal in it self what is going on in my case alone before the Courts(Trial 1st Feb 2010)
How many more are out there
I am not sure how much I can say here but if you are so interested in the JUSTICE SYSTEM then contact me direct graysond49@yahoo.com
I will forward you a copy of the letter my Local Member had me send him
Thanks have a good life
from Dave

RobP “You must know you've got your head right up your arse.”

No

But I do know you are a grubby little tic.

“OK, I'll put you to the test: what have *you* done to help others?”

Modesty forbids comment…

but do not be guided by my values, feel free… lets hear it, spout off how wonderful you are.

“You dont know me from a bar of soap and I'm not a grub. “

I could make the comment “You dont know me from a bar of soap”.

Yet you make free with parallels between me and movie characters (Han Greuber) and derogatory naming re

“Col the Troll, Sir Trollalot

Not this turgid garbage again, surely”

And “But you are definitely a lazy sod who thinks he can bully others into his own point of view. A right tosser by any measure”

So what pathetic excuse have you for obviously liking to spread your “grubby” little judgments around, yet whining like a smacked child with a total intolerance to being called a “grub” (as a consequence of it)?

I have simply concluded that “hypocrisy” is your middle name, since it clearly drips from every post you make.

Now go "grub" and carry on you pursuit of carrion.

I am sure there is some particularly tasty piece of road kill somewhere, just waiting for you to lay eggs in.

Hey Col,

sod off.

RobP "Hey Col,

sod off."

I see your eloquence is improving....

It is a shame your manners and your intellect remain in the gutter - or maybe that is an elevation from where you are normally.

Either way.. your opinion, like your existence is irrelevant.

julia...these people/smugglers...resqueing..people from oppression...some further thoughts...how about the natzies..or more specificlly..the jews..they smuggled out of the natzie homeland

are these the worstscum on earth too?

worse that first world nations..standing aside..while mass murder and bombing of the tamalies..[with western supplied arms etc..takes place...we did nothing]...now all of a sudden resquing people from systamised murder...is the worst crime?

realkly girl...im not sure your capable of indignation for any but israel...you said not a real lot about the palistine genocide,,using sulpher/phospher munitions and cluster bomblets on civilian.native populations

ANYHOW i have a remedy...my cost affective remedy..that keeps these boat people at home...simply by you lot building an embassy/sancturay..allowing them an equivelent to gaza..but in the homelands of those being oppressed...but run under human principles

diplo-mats..use theuir standing immunity..to go resque these threatend with extinction...because of race...as you can see by the destraction of these two tearing each other apart [at your party...i simply pretend thats not happening

just like kevin pretends the boat people has anything to do with what he has said...is real cause is kevin not insisting on the murder stop..no murder no boat people

kevin with his global warning from big business suirity..of course business wants a free gift of carbon credits,,to on/sell to the international carbon trading/exchange...

its all about the bonus tax on carbon credit..credited to big busines/security changers..money markets

..but he could treally make his mark..by solving this exodus of frightend fearfull people/refugees..FORCED FROIM THEIR OWN HOMES...by war mongering/oppresors

Col,

>>It is a shame your manners and your intellect remain in the gutter - or maybe that is an elevation from where you are normally.<<

Well, at least I don't give one-trick ponies a good name.

>>Either way.. your opinion, like your existence is irrelevant.<<

Truly lovely. If mine is then so's yours, sunshine. The more I listen to your faux intelligence and superior this-and-that crap, the more I hope life will give you the big coathanger one day. The only one in the gutter is you, Col. You're one of these "don't give suckers an even break" type of guy. In my mind, that makes you the worst type of cur of all.

I hope someone puts their 20c piece to good use and gives your merc a new GT stripe down the side. I hope the clothes your new floosy has bought split down the seams. And I hope you drop dead with cancer.

i know the thread title...indicates the name calling goes on eternally...but we are all indignant...

but let ye without sin not cast stones

hi julia
here is todays brief
stuff your not likely to come accros... in your govt brief

the time of war is over...the old..[young]..julia..would have jumped at the chance...the old one has to day...is there anything left of the old julia?

or is she so taken with baubles and power's from criminals
...lol..not in your name..nor mine...peace will come...its simply a matter of who got the ball...s

http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2009/10/18/apartheid-government-panicking-time-to-increase-actions/

http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2009/10/18/the-slippery-slope/

http://www.thestar.com.my/columnists/story.asp?file=/2009/10/18/columnists/behindtheheadlines/4927990&sec=behindtheheadlines

http://www.alternet.org/world/121848

http://america-hijacked.com/2009/10/18/us-israel-lobby-after-iran-and-out-to-suppress-goldstone-report/

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/israel-will-rely-on-war-crimes-vetoes-20091018-h2z4.html

http://www.euronews.net/2009/10/18/israel-rejects-war-crimes-claims/

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2009/10/18/the-dead-are-envied-in-gaza/

http://www.roytov.com/articles/dayisraeldied.htm

http://politicaltheatrics.org/2009/10/17/the-‘idf’-violated-nuremberg-principles-during-operation-‘cast-lead’/

http://obamboozled.blogspot.com/2009/10/ioa-launches-construction-works-in-31.html

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/illuswarprayergaza.html

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/anyquestions.php

http://politicaltheatrics.org/2009/10/17/the-gaza-freedom-march-lectureforum/

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/features/why-would-any-writer-make-up-stories-about-the-holocaust-1803275.html

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2009/10/17/supporters-of-zioterror-speak-out-against-un-report/

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2009/10/17/gazans-still-suffering-despite-un-report/

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2009/10/17/in-occupied-jerusalem-no-respite-despite/

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1121614.html

http://www.paltelegraph.com/hot-topic/2647-gaza--a-death-camp

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/iranprop.php

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1121610.html

http://uruknet.com/index.php?p=m59021&hd=&size=1&l=e

http://watchingamerica.com/News/15111/america-and-great-britain-support-jandullah/

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125587282013392519.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_LEFTTopStories

http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=7876

http://www.businessinsider.com/dylan-ratigan-how-goldman-sachs-made-3-billion-a-year-after-we-bailed-their-lucky-asses-out-2009-10

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article23738.htm

http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2009/oct/12/record-cold-hits-region-snow-on-the-way/

http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=551

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/oct/16/too-late-to-stop-gm

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2009/10/15/fox_news/

yesterdays brief
http://whatreallyhappened.com/node?page=1

There is too much education now, we do not need more..rather less or consider highly targeted education. The University has only really replaced the military into getting the young to behave in a good capitalistic wage slave fashion. It is more a cultural brainwashing institution than anything else.

Then the other day saw an ad for a cleaner...cert 3 required? You know, we have got to be joking.

RobP

You have let Col drive you to a point where you have wished him ill. We all know he has as much depth of heart as a hot air balloon, but in giving out negatives that is all you will receive.

Feel sorry for him that his world is so limited. As you, like Col, are a Christian, pray for him. However, given that he is not young he is unlikely to change his spots. Sure, I have teased him on occasion (don't mention the Bentley) however, the best you can do with the likes of him is to maintain moral superiority and not dredge the depths of insult that Col regularly uses on all who have the temerity to disagree with him.

I guess by now that you are fulfilling the prophecy of the title of this article. No, Col is not and never will be just, he will never realise just how much the chance of birth meant that he started with much more advantages than others. Be glad that you are not Col, and you do genuinely understand that humans, as a social species, achieve far more together, than as individuals. Not that there is anything wrong with individual achievement, I am currently applauding young Jessica Watson finally commencing her journey of a lifetime. However, what the Cols of the world fail to understand is that without that support network around her, Jessica would never have been able to embark on such a challenge.

Regards

Hey TheMissus, I believe that lollypop men (sorry, road traffic controllers) have to do a 16 week course.
It's all in the wrist...
RobP, I'm with Fractelle (as usual). Don't let it get to you. I suggest you take heart from the notion that the great beauty of freedom of speech is that it allows the assholes to clearly identify themselves.
Let God (or the Divine Spaghetti Monster) allow you the serenity to accept that which you will never change...
Oh dear, that's 2 ellipses in one post. I hope UOG's malady is not contagious.,...

The Missus is confusing 'edumacation' with training. The Cert 3 for cleaners, the Cert 3 for lollypoppers, is but basic safety training I'd imagine. It merely attempts to ensure completely unaware employees are not let loose to injure themselves.

Worse though, are the religious bodies set up as approved national trainers, who deliver 'counselling courses' to wide eyed youf, and others, who then get their 'sistificates 3 and 4' which allow them to be let loose on the vulnerable and 'counsel' them into and down the path of religion.

RobP “Truly lovely. If mine is then so's yours, sunshine. The more I listen to your faux intelligence and superior this-and-that crap, the more I hope life will give you the big coathanger one day.”

How crass

“I hope someone puts their 20c piece to good use and gives your merc a new GT stripe down the side.”

the wishes of the small minded and envious… resenting what others have earned and what they know they cannot achieve

Actually – its my future wife’s “merc” … she bought it some years ago, when she was operating a group of training schools.

“I hope the clothes your new floosy has bought split down the seams.”

If you mean my future wife (two weeks to go) you are going beyond the pale and showing how low and loathsome you really are… but I will take it all in good spirit… the likes of you being so irrelevant and impotent (I wonder – perhaps that is it - you are so envious because you have difficulty in the matter of “potency”)

Yes I am sure you would have been there on the front line destroying those who you thought (and who probably were alot) better than you. You can probably trace your ancestry back through Germanys “brown shirts”, all the way to the French revolution and the grannies who were knitting beneath the guillotine which executed Marie Antoinette.

“ And I hope you drop dead with cancer.”

Very uncalled for…

Proving, however, that there is no depth to which you will not stoop,

No feces’ .in which you will not roll.

Fractelle “I have teased him on occasion (don't mention the Bentley)”

mention it all you want…

“maintain moral superiority”

ROFLMAO..

Toooooooo late

For “moral superiority” RobP would have to demonstrate he has any

“morals”

which is inconsistent with wishing someone contracts cancer

I will pray for him.

“, as a social species, achieve far more together, than as individuals.”

Yes that is why we have “markets”, “commerce” and “trade” ..

So the excellence of the few benefits the many, at a price.

The Blue Cross,

Not not confusing the two in my head, perhaps the way I worded the post.

Regarding university I feel it plays a vital role in preparing a person to be a good "cultural fit" in the workplace rather than skill training. It does save employer a lot of anarchy in the workplace and higher level of compliance. The downside is that it also takes the culture out of people that leads to new ideas, motivation, entrepreneur and the ability to survive outside the mainstream. It is difficult to reconcile how we promote a multicultural Australia when to actually survive we need to be culturally corporate compliant and leave our differences in the closet. Despite the many decades of multiculturalism at the end of the day we only have capitalistic culture to show for it. Cultural wasteland.

theMissus,
this simply isn't so. University gets a lot of bad press, some of it deserved, but how higher education is imbibed comes down to the individual. There is ample opportunity to emerge an anarchist as well as an entrepreneur. Neither has university had much to do with multi-culturalism---driven more by political expediency and pc than anything else. Culturalism is another matter, it is the product of literary reformation.
The humanities predate the kind of pragmatic (no, cynical) higher learning that dominates these days; indeed the humanities used to be the reason d'etre of university, which churned out society's avant-garde, that vital admixture that kept culture vibrant and politics honest. Most universities today are dedicated to the white-collar market---churning out suits, devoid of imagination, or at least preoccupied with making money and maintaining the mindless endless round of capitalism. The cultural "wasteland" is the by-product of the latter, whereas universities, the ones that haven't yet sold their soul to the devil, are the last remaining levees against the rising tide.
Get your humanities before they become cheap commodities---only while stocks last!

Fractelle/Grim,

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm still not sure whether Col's taking the mickey or he's serious so I would have to see him face to face to know what I was really dealing with. I'm happy to turn it into a joke if he is. If he's dead serious, then so will I and he can expect no quarter.

>>So the excellence of the few benefits the many, at a price.<<

Up to a point that's fair enough. I saw the 7.30 Report tonight, Col, where dairy individual farmers were getting knocked down to 29c/litre for milk, when it costs them 40c/litre to produce. There apparently are 5 farmers on suicide watch because of the stress of being caught between not being able to cope with the cost pressures and not knowing whether there's a viable alternative they can turn their hand to. Is that your idea of a "price"? The problem with knobs like you that operate in the market is that you don't know your own strength, and you're prepared to indirectly play chicken with other people's lives. That's a real price. Would you be prepared to pay it if you were in the farmer's position?

Your one-sided application of libertarianism has got knobs on it, Col. Wake up and smell the roses. So, what would you do if one of your clients was about to get squashed between a rock and a hard place? Throw them to the wolves?

hey jules..see all the trstosterone on this post..this is the same patriarchal bulllssshit thats going down in israel...mate...fix that you fix a lot...i would begoin by withdrawing money to israel...because its not in the nukle treaty..you know that one irsan is in

second i would do some research about sri-lanka..specificlly the 50 ,000 in prioson camps...herded into their version of gaza...thats the saame mob thats on the boat...get it...

had you lot spoken up earlier...they wouldnt be homeless...quite appart from the fact that sriolanka has a favoured status...using slave labour..ignorted so it can by su arms..that assisted this genocide of the natyive tamnals

coirrect me where the mud map i have revealed to you is in error..tell kev forget about the carbon tax..i know he made it as low as he could...but ,mate..its built on a lie..

its why i stopped writing kevin direct..went through wayne...given up on both of em now
only doing it here till the post closes

the other thing is bring them in and set them up in our gaza...seriously...you know settle them in the outback...with the natives...jobs for our indiginous peoples...

join the two problems mate..jobs/work for our people...in time they will returnm home./..to sri-lanca gladly..oncve they payed the rent...helped the locals

A question, posted by Squeers, Wednesday, 14 October 2009 7:50:49 PM:

"Is it credible that Julia Gillard, ......... , does not have a twitching human nerve-centre plugged into this thread?"

Squeers, I know I have already posted once (or twice?) in this thread, but I am pleased you have realized we have a real-life drama going on on OLO in the midst of all the banality. Truly, I pity the poor ministerial minder charged with the monitoring of this thread, continuing as it is at this late stage, but I suspect one such brought this literary deluge upon their own heads. "Apres moi ...." and all that.

I do wish those engaging in such slugfestery as has been going on with Col (see: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2479#56290 ) would refer to him correctly.

As I drafted this post I noticed that it is my 303rd for the year. Strangely seemingly appropriate, bringing to mind Edward Woodward as Breaker Morant in the film of the same name. "We caught them, and we shot them, under Rule 303". As a consequence of the disgraceful scapegoating by the then British government that led to Morant's execution during the Boer War, the death penalty for any military offence by any Australian serviceman has been outlawed ever since.

They're at it again Julia, with two of their own, in the Howes' case. What are you going to do about this injustice? Are you as driven by indignation at injustice as you claim?

All the Howes' want is a hearing. They are clearly not going to get one in the US.

All you have to do is request their extradition to Australia. We should have as much evidence as do the US authorities, for a crime alleged to have been abetted by them in Australia, shouldn't we? The Howes' have asked for this. Why not do it? Why not show your government is different from the previous one that did virtually the same thing to an Australian who had never even been to the US?

Payback time!

RobP “Your one-sided application of libertarianism has got knobs on it, Col. Wake up and smell the roses. So, what would you do if one of your clients was about to get squashed between a rock and a hard place? Throw them to the wolves?”

My “one-sided application of libertarianism" would not have allowed "wholesale markets" purchasing power to be so concentrated as Hawke and Keating and the rest of the swill humping socialists gave their blessing to.

Simple you can track the problem you identify that back to Hawke/Keating and the socialist swill in government at the time, who allowed the Coles/Myers and the Woolworth/Safeway mergers to proceed, when they have the authority to stop them.

These two mergers resulted in the concentration of wholesale purchasing power into a too small a number of groups, rather than a natural market where the numbers of buyers and sellers are so many as no single entity can control a price.

And I never supported the Button plan (re Senator Button, Socialist) to fund the multinational concentration of car assembly production into fewer economic groups in Australia.. which, at the time, resulted in the immediate closure of Nissan production at Clayton Vic.

Better socialists stop pretending they know best when they clearly do not and leave business to those who understand it…. Stop pretending that by favourable grants, tax rules and anti-competition legislation you can make any “Green” industry, which lacks commercial rigor, “viable”.

That is why I support the spirit of ACCC. Because it helps redress the imbalance of a few producers/wholesalers with power to control prices for millions of individual consumers.

It is also why I resist public ownership of anything. Because, when the state owns the means of production or service it is invariably in a monopoly position and poor performance ends up hidden behind monopoly pricing, to the detriment of all.
In short, if you want a “fair” system: the owner cannot also be the regulator.

(Although I would accept “Water”, by its very nature, is an exception to all other manufactured/growing/produced goods and services)

as due diligance..is the rule of the servant...and seervice to servant is service to master ...i hereby establish joinder of this to that

this being this legally lawfull and proper..in time notice to master..via the servant...enjoin this poist to all previopus posts..that due diligence would have revcieved notarisation of reportage on...together as if one...completly full notice...delivered by public proclamation

i know kev has been checking the stuff pased on to him...and advise him ti lighten up..to wit toi ask john howhasrd of a specific letter delivered to john and 35 embassies in and arround canbera

ask that he request the footage off the security cameras at old parliment house in 2002..on good friday..they will know of which i speak

further joining this to that i include as one..my wriutings at worldfreeman sopciety...at the id link...as well as the words noticed on other sites such as wikipedia/morganaforumco...and the celistine prophecy web site..under the same intra-alia...but other non de plumes as well

julie it is written that woman/children will lead us...but mate why??..realize...its the patriarchal way...remove from the patriarchs...the power...and all of sa sudden al their collusions of power expire..this is as it was then womans business

rread my court transcripts/police intervieuws...julie...for gods childrens sake...mate we been decieved...the witness is in my postings

i know it looks difficult...but mate..you girls do figure it all out in the end...have you met the first ladies

well do it now
this time let kev run his show
you need to go do girly things

god is within..all of us..god is with-in-you
god is living loving light sustaining life..

you are allready a light amoung men
but the spirit...needs fruits..govt NEEDS be like the loving mother..not the disaplinarian father...we dont need blame..but do need imediate remedy...

let the servant serve...and yet...in private..be his own master

>>All you have to do is request their extradition to Australia. We should have as much evidence as do the US authorities, for a crime alleged to have been abetted by them in Australia, shouldn't we? The Howes' have asked for this. Why not do it? Why not show your government is different from the previous one that did virtually the same thing to an Australian who had never even been to the US?<<

Two things, Forrest.

1. You seem to be implying that Gillard is not the real deal. From what I've seen so far I'd have to concur. As they say, you judge people by what they do rather than what they say. So far, what has she done? In Parliament she comes across like a perfumed version of Peter Costello. And we all know he took the safe, low road in his political career. When someone is trying to contemporaneously create political epithets about themselves, you know they're not really interested in serving anyone else - their priorities are elsewhere.
2. Why would anyone do anything on your say-so? All people do when faced with a deluge of literary indulgence, is to even more quickly ignore them. Why bother? Why wreck it by saying anything at all?

>>I do wish those engaging in such slugfestery as has been going on with Col would refer to him correctly.<<

Don't hide behind your bushel. How would you refer to him?

Prince Valium? As in Mogadon? Ta.

Col,

I agree there are excesses on the socialist side of the fence that affect those who can and want to achieve things. However, do you accept that there are unscrupulous types in industry that are every bit as bad and excessive as your traditional enemies? If, yes, then you must be advocating a form of regulation that does something about this. Multiple problems build up over time. People that are VERY good in business create a tiered society where there are distinct winners and losers. Great if you're one if the winners, terrible otherwise. How would you propose to solve this problem?

Ye Gods, I must be feverish. I find myself actually agreeing with (most of) one of Col Rouge's posts.
Hawke/Keating somehow tried to marry socialism with neo liberalism, and ended up with runaway corporatism; to the benefit of no one but their mega rich buddies.

Forrest Gump,
allow me to express my admiration. Your handle is apt: the resident savant of OLO! And I'm in awe at your prolific output!
Indeed, when I read that first post in this thread, and followed the trail to the censored epistle, and read the narrative and the verse within which it was couched, I felt confronted by my own mediocrity, and bethought me the matter. That you were capable of such wizardry, not only of composition, but of transposition, moving omnisciently among diverse threads, at liberty to supplement them as you would; to appear, ad hoc, unbidden, amid the annals of the wise--just like the "real" Forrest!
I confess I supposed that not only did Gillard (obviously) have a minion cock a tin ear to the proceedings, but that this Forrest Gump was a resident troll! A stooge of OLO, held enthral for years, like the Hunchback of Notre Dame, slave to the belles lettres of the forum, gifted with the ability to retain and mimic selectively the maddening cacophony of the wise. All the while his/her verbiage being, though cannily crafted, the unthinking transcription of a mindless scribe, a dolt taught to paraphrase parrot-fashion! The alternative was unthinkable ... !
In short, I thought you were an OLO insider, a puppet master; thus OLO was manipulated from within and without!
I suspect, in the end, I was mistaken, misled by vanity, thrall--though why else would such a silver tongue while away his hours crafting supererogatory prose and prosody, gratis--for the sheer hell of it! Unless to torment me, to toy with my pretentions--to gloat! Even imposing such strictures as perfect economy--not a word wasted or wanted!

I agree with the substance of your "carnival" (prick your ears, Julia's minion), the Howes should be extradited to Australia, for "justice". Have we learnt nothing from the David Hicks virtual lynching!

I'm still some words short! And as disconsolate and discombobulate as Antonio Salierie! 'Tis too much to bare! ...How long must I go on in this stupid manner, filling the quota of a man maddened by the madding crowd.

Squeers (and any with ears to hear that may be listening),

I offer this little vignette from the teachings of Diogenes:

"The city was under seige. Everyone was busy fortifying the walls
- some were carrying stones, others were patching the walls,
yet others were building battlements. Diogenes, not wanting to appear idle
while everyone around him was working so frantically,
diligently rolled his barrel back and forth along the battlements.
The city fell."

(For those who know nothing as to Diogenes, he was a Greek philosopher contemporary with Plato, and who was famous as living in a barrel on the streets of, presumably, Athens, Greece, and surviving as a beggar. He had earned the nickname 'Dog', in romanised greek 'cynic', hence in our aggluti-native tongue giving rise to the noun 'cynicism'. And along the way you have now found out why 'nicknames' are so called: it is from the greek [again romanised], 'Nick', which so many, many Greeks are called, and don't you know it!)

I don't know whether that sheds any light on things for you Squeers (and those with ears that hear), as to why I post on OLO. You say:

"why else would such a silver tongue while away his hours
crafting supererogatory prose and prosody, gratis-
-for the sheer hell of it! Unless to torment me,
to toy with my pretentions--to gloat!
Even imposing such strictures as perfect economy-
-not a word wasted or wanted!"

Perhaps it is just that I fancy myself, somewhat analogously to Diogenes, as living like quite a few other Australians, by choice almost, on the scrapheap rather than salute much of the drivel and banality that passes for political debate these days. Or then again, perhaps it is just to provide the counterpoint to the silence that is golden; an opportunity for the tired, abused eye of the OLOer, forced by idleness to peruse these threads, these columns, these veritable pillars of our democracy, to see the funny side of things.

Oh, I almost forgot:

Harry Harbord Morant.

Brian and Kerry Howes.

Extradition.

Trial.

Justice.

YOU WILL BE PLEASED TO KNOW...as posting has gotten complicated/systamised...here...no doudt to stop all the bots posting...this is near my last post

you also no doudt will be pleased...with these..rather detailed revelations
http://www.infowars.com/climate-treaty-will-create-world-government-dictatorship/#

of course others may not be./but no doudt your ever ready to serve the moneychangers..to the last drop they can squeeze out of us

luckey for me...im pretty much done

you have been told

...the problem dont belong to me..but those conducting and condoning active treasons...im notuing the tax revieuw..recomendations to cut business taxes...just as..we get this globalist new tax...lol

lert each do their due dilligance

Climate Treaty Will Create World Government Dictatorship

<<The Conference of the Parties..(COP)>>..special intrests paRTIES..LOL THERE ARE..ONLY ONE MASTER/PARTIES..BOTH PARTIES SERVIONG THE SELF SAME ELITE

...<<..to the United Nations will hold their 15th conference on climate change through December 7-18th.>>>

NOTING IT BEGAN WAY BACK THEN AS COOLING...THEN WARMING...THEN CHANGE...LOL

<<..At the conference,..globalists like Obama..will sign the..‘Copenhagen Climate Change Treaty’..that will replace the Kyoto treaty that is set to expire in 2012.

Lord Christopher Monckton,..the man who warned many..this week of the treaty appeared on the Glenn Beck radio program,..he makes it clear..that the treaty will create a World Government Dictatorship..

..that will have complete authority..over all nations..

..by intervening in the economies..and environment of any individual country..in the world..without consent...

The treaty..will also allow..the distribution of wealth from..THE CITISENRY...OF THE developed countries..like the U.S....to THE NEO ELITES FAVOURED WITH FINANCING..TO REBUILD THE SCAM UPON THE IGFNORANT...Third World Countries like Africa,

in other words;.. CARBON/taxpayer-funded FAUX-socialist AS COORPERATE/welfare!...

The reason..why many believe..Obama will sign this global treaty..is because Obama'S SUPPORTERS/ADVISERS ADVICE TREASONS...HE has supported a global tax legislation..would have given $845 billion of foreign aid...

to satisfy the United Nations’...NEW WORLD OVERLORDS...CONSISTING OF DICTATORSHIPS...OF CUNTRIES/STATES..MADE INTO FRABCHISE..LEGAL WARDSHIPPS...BY THE ELITES WHO'S..goal of reducing US ALL INTO poverty by 2015...

THE CAPS ARE MINE

YOUR CHOICE..IS TO READ THE FULL REVEALATION..OR NOT...ITS A DONE DEAL/TREASON

One Under God... how right you are, and so perceptive too, not to mention fluent in your thoughts and articulate in imparting your ideas. Yer done good.

Clearly, that Obama fellow is Devil sent, what with his desire to heal the sick with a Communist designed health service straight from the centre of socialism, the UK and its damned NHS.

I am very pleased to see the large number of Christians and their churches can see through the glitter surrounding this Devil, and recognise the underhanded dealings about to assault the Land of The Free and its particular grasp of democracy.

I await the ever loving Christian abortion clinic bombers picking up their military rifles (and hand launched missiles maybe?) and mounting the grassy knoll, again, to rid the world of Auld Nick's work.

Keep up your warnings to this miserable and unworthy world OUG, we'd be lost without seers such as you.

>>Simple you can track the problem you identify that back to Hawke/Keating and the socialist swill in government at the time, who allowed the Coles/Myers and the Woolworth/Safeway mergers to proceed, when they have the authority to stop them.<<

Col,

I was young fellow at that time who didn't have eyes to see such things, so I concede that what you say could be right.

>>That is why I support the spirit of ACCC. Because it helps redress the imbalance of a few producers/wholesalers with power to control prices for millions of individual consumers.<<

I noticed the ACCC has recently been involved in brokering a deal to ensure there is grocery competition in shopping centres. The deal discontinues the practice of Coles/Woolies writing into contracts with their landlords that business competitors not be given any retail space. I wonder how they ever got away with that over the years? I agree that the spirit of the ACCC seems to be working in this case. And, as I understand it, they've done this without any regulation. Maybe just backroom threats that, of course, would never have worked if the Government did not have the regulation card to play.

Forrest,
I'm a big fan of Diogenes myself and have an illustrated limited edition (cartoons!) text covering his exploits. Did you know that Sherlock Holmes' older and "smarter" brother, who only makes a few appearences in the stories, was based on the dear old dog? Sherlock of course was no philosopher, but a narrow-minded dolt (much like some of the contributers to these threads), who didn't know that the Earth goes around the sun, for instance! Sherlock was an idiot savant in fact and would, as occasion demanded, appeal to his brother's broader spectrum of thought. The philosophers of the world, like Sherlock's big brother (who, like Diogenes, was a great success at being an abject failure in the ways of the world--there are no instances of him masturbating in public, however) and yourself? and even myself (in my small way), have a hard time finding a focus, ever being distracted from the mandetory business of building our empires, and laying blame, by the contingencies that seem to colonise every endeavour.

On more serious matters: Being father to a brood of 6 myself, I cannot imagine the distress the Howes, and especially their children, are prey too. Julia Gillard and her lame bloody government have learnt nothing from Howard's toadying to the US. It is another human rights abuse, perpetrated by governments, that this family is broken up and kept in limbo for so long without being charged. And from what I gather, there's little indication that any law has been broken--at least not in the UK or Australia.
The Howes "may" have acted unconscienably, but as I've said elsewhere, we are ALL experts at rationalising the things we do, or don't do! Indeed we routinely perform this aclechemy, individuals and governments, making our misdeeds redound to our credit with sincere credultiy!

Squeers and others
When did the sun stop going round the earth?
Isn't the world flat and only other planets round?
The sun must revolve around the earth as there are so many out there that thinks the sun rises from thier ar/e
Anyway have a laugh it breaks the monotony
Have a good life
From Dave
PS had a bit of a laugh at this

http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/mp/6289679/nobel-winner-slams-bible-as-handbook-of-bad-morals/

Laughter is a great past time
Dave

sorry to destract your post yet again...but..need to reply some trolls..dont worry i know blue cross isnt your troll..so will ignore this fixated lunatic/troll

next..sad to see that injustice ammuses you so..dwg

clearly your laughing at your own delusioned supiriority/based on disbelief in fables,,,or strawman..created by your fellow ignorants,,to state.then refute..your own deluded reasonings...

yet again i ask you reveal,,6000 years..reveal where any religion say's..flat earth..your clearly impressed...by your own insanity

so now..i need search..for some more injustice,..to allow you to die laughing..metaphoriclly speaking,..of course...personally i feel your dead in your mind..anmd nomatter what i post you poor deluded athiests wont try to comprehend

im expecting much more from julia...under the maxim..of to whome much is given...reminding julie..that the much expected...isnt only expected..by the israel warmongers..to whom far too much has been gifted...

just usa cash gifts total over 1,3 trillion..check the numbers jules..add in gifts like the german nulke sub..the american nuke facilities..

we in reality all should soon be laughing..as insanely as dwg

anyhow...you know laughing..for no reason..is a sign of insanity

but back to topic..ignoring the flames...im laughing for good reason

to save me searching out your info..please read whatreallyhappend.listen to republic radio..alexjones...why are we injecting kids and pregnant woman with GMO...

vacines dont use eggs anymore..now its gmo..grown on bl;ended up meat/serum...recall the monkey serum..that gave us aids..

well this is the next stage..of the truelly vile..to kill of/or mutate the goy...get it...same reaon they drppped depleted uranium on the captives in gaza..check out the mutations

but i forget you dont care about gaza...any way to the funny boy.gwb..keep laughing...you dont know hoe dumb you appear...im laughing because im sadend our leaders serve other intrests...not the people nor the common weal..[gods estates]

[who is not a child of god..thus who is not a people of god
who living doess not live ..but by gods gift of life

who you serving julia/kevin/wayne..?
do you know..how come your doing as you do?
stop taking the party line...

take the side of gods children...ie...the rest of us
satan cares for his own..in/from..israel
peace...not pieces

No,
One Under God
If you had of read my previous posts you would see that I am laughing because if I didn't I would surely be insane
For twelve years I have fought my guts out trying to defeat pure and simple blatant criminal behaviour at the removal of my son
It is so-called people that are supposed to be conducting themselves with the belief of God, You know Courts and Judges, Magistrates, Solicitors and Barristers isn't the whole legal profession tied to "God"
Lies,perjury, false representation of DO's, altering of file records and the list goes on, then the AUDACITY of Solicitors and Barristers claiming the word ETHICAL into thier argument
All the above mentioned cr/p while an innocent child cries and makes himself physically sick for his parents deprived of an education and etc
Other words CHILD ABUSE and what is done? Sweet F/A

So no, OUG I laugh because the moment I stop I will surely be insane

Thanks have a good life
From Dave

i have now read the quote...someone else posted it on another thread..i made my reply to it there...essentially on of the athiest herd quoted it as some thesis to under pin evolution/athiesm debate

the guy is clearly a writer selling his book about cain..little wonder he says insane things..athiests in their desperation jump on

oh oh..a nobel prize winner..[in literature...lol..very authoritive that...lol..only to the athiest herd

i am well aware of your circumstances...having read your posts on the topic...its you that now raise the child to make some point or other

i reacted to your flat earth delusions etc...when thats an yiddish/assumption/presumption..thats not written in the bible..sunshine..thus not able to be attributed it..to create de facto joinder..to make pathetic point scores,..off your own strawman

OUG
"its you that now raise the child to make some point or other"
I raise my son's case because you and other bible preaching so-called men of God, want to preach about your beliefs and try to force them on others and anyone that doesn't agree are less than human.
I raise my son's case because people say they want child abuse to stop,people like you who are supposed to be acting in the way of your God, want to make up thier own set of rules,
ie, Courts,Judges,Barristers,Magistrates, and Solicitors that are supposed to be people God, truthful and uphold the Laws of the Country
I raise my son's case as I need look no further than that to see the corruption lies and abuse that is so prevalent across the community
and all people like you want to say is God, God, God,
I fought my guts out for my son that has Driven me by the Injustice
and hurt that the so-called God people have caused my son

Put simply i am "Driven by Indignation at Injustice" whether people want to hate my guts or not that is no excuse to hurt my innocent child
Dave

feel better now..i didnt take your child...sounds like govt agencies/may have..i see..nothing..can change what is...thus see no benifit raising the issue here...unless your seeking julia to do something

in that case..i suggest writing her..a letter..anyhow..i do not see what else..i can say to you...you make claims..

quote..<<<..I raise my son's..case..because..you and other bible preaching..so-called men of God,..want to..preach..about your beliefs..and try to force..them on others..and anyone that doesn't agree..are less than human>>...

ok..fair enough...but..let me say this...i dont feel..im p-reaching the bible...but feel free to expand..or validate your claim

im not..one of/..the so called..<<men of god>>..[is this some neo..[new]..sect?

i believe..that when the religious people..believing in the one good/god...get to..gether..as one..for the only one...each religions prophets /messengers will rejoice...see religion is used to divide us...who is not..a child of god...who live's..but by the living gods will..we live

i feel..you may have been hurt..by those claiming religious values..yet are deaf..to the love..of the living god...being accorded equally..upon us all...

not via..one messenger's religion/..over/the other..but one to one..each making...their own peace...one to one/with god...atonemeant[at-one-meant]..thats not preaching..thats prophecy

<<I raise my son's case..because people say..they want child abuse..to stop,..people like you..who are supposed to be..acting..in the way of your God,...>>>..i like many others..follow the egsample of the chirst...born of woman...thus human...

he revealed..that ye see me do...ye shall do greater...greater than god..?..of course not..see him/..see our father/..but see you same/same...we are created..in his image...

furrther see emmanuel..[god within]...god sustains us to life/via logic..via our heart...his thone..is our living/loving beating hearts...the natural/nurture/..of nature..that we do./to the least..we do to him

you say i/we...<<want to..make up thier own..set of rules>>.lest you forget..in your grief...we have ten hard and fast rules,..see there is../

gods higher laws..

..then mans/civil laws..of contract...

..see you fell/..foul of civil law

...mainly because you..made your self..and your child..a person...under the act...see thaT JESUS ADVIZED..us not to take oath..[matt]

..but jesus good-advice..was ignored by yourself...and now/..you tasted the bitter fruits...via/..your own act..you..chose...

see..when you registered..the child/under the births/marrages act...you gave up the..freedom of the child/made it surity for the state..[under terms of bankruptsy]..

in fact...u..took faulse oath..to do it...you swore true...dead instruments of...lol..state/a fiction..[d.o.b]..etc

your sig-nature..[writen/oath]..gave them..higher standing...thus you and them..fell under..civil juristiction...via your contract/application[under the act]..../signed sealed..you/into satan's civil/contract-ed/realm

ignorance of the law..is no excuse/

..but had you..read the rule book..you wouldnt have fallen..for the scam/of the demons..running a-muck..in the mocery..or demonic autocracy...capitalism's/rulling demo-cracy...run by the..beuro-roc-rats

see..child stealing..by the state..is as old/as..the hills...nothing buys loyalty..to the party-line..as much as having the dirt..on your judges/polititions etc...

its a filthy business...thats why lawyers/run govt..as well as the courts...most polititions..are or were..lawyer's...the law-society/and bankers boys club..runs the global scam...

but you..couldnt care less..thats why..they took your child...cause they can

I have not seen a lot worth commenting on lately, but this one still rambles on. Julia Gillard has an opportunity right now to ensure that her drive and indignation at injustice ends. All Julia has to do is recognize two parts of the Australian Constitution that apply to such a problem.

The first is that S 51 Placitum vi Constitution authorizes the Commonwealth to take over and control the forces to execute and maintain the laws of the Commonwealth, and the second is that S 126 Constitution, authorizes the Queen, to authorize the Governor General to appoint deputies throughout the Commonwealth.

S 8 Australian Federal Police Act 1979 gives an Australian Federal Police Officer the same direction as is given to the Governor General by S 61 Constitution, that is to maintain and execute the Constitution and the laws of the Commonwealth. Sections 40 and 41 of the Federal Court of Australia Act 1976 appropriate the money to pay for a jury in any Federal Court case, so it would be simple and constitutionally accurate, to add an S making Federal Courts into Federal Courts so that federal money can go to pay every jury everywhere.

Kevin Rudd is being asked to create Peoples Courts under Ch III Constitution, with an officer of the Australian Federal Police as president and twelve ordinary people who are willing to participate, as the judges of fact to comply with S 79 Constitution. The suggestion is that some of the 100,000 homeless people currently living rough in Australia be asked to participate, and like a High Court Judge be paid $200 tax free a day to act as federal judges.

The Australian Federal Police as agents to start the proceedings would not, because their Act provides severe sanctions for corrupt practices, be inclined to refuse anyone access to such an institution, and the lawyers, for the first time since readmission to Parliament in 1870, would get some real competition in the delivery of justice. If Julia and Cabinet support this call, she will not have to be driven by injustice any longer

hey julia...just so you cant say you wernt told...re copenhagen
its the final stage to create a world govt

and refinance the same powers that be/were..
by taxing the first world..into enforced serfdom...leaving us fully in fiatised debt[bankrupted govt...issuing carbon credits..to its 1000 best mates..they onsell to the securities traitors..to get their bonus/cut..then direct into the neo..[new]world carbon/bank

destroying our indistrial capacity...while rebuilding it in the current 3 rd world..allowing a well financed powers that were..to do it all over again...poluting/despoiling the third world...while the 1 st world...collapses..til we enjoin the 3 rd world...and the serevants of the beast..claim a conjoined 2de world..standard

our compulsory global tax...direct to the world bankers..will be spent..underr ursuous obligation...in the third world..selectivly giving the carbon credits..to the neo dictators..running their new industrialisation/consumer scam...

serving the same big business/bankers adgenda/..scam..doing the same polutions..all over again...because carbon[lol]..is the only poisen...

financed by the self same elite banking cartel/that financed every war..under the same ursurous terms layed on the state..picked up by the citizen/serf..under deceptive civil contracted juristictions

its about a world govt..serving incorperated multinationals..and them recieving direct the compulsory tax on ..lol..carbon..a global tax...on carbon credits..that is then gifted to multinationals..to subvert nationality..globally..financed with our compulsory new taxes on everything..we buy and sell..[or consume]..

Read the Copenhagen Agreement
http://unfccc.int/resource/docs/2009/awglca7/eng/inf02.pdf

Looking at the location of the word "governance" in the doc makes you realize what TPTB have in mind.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703574604574500580285679074.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Next stop should be here if you're American:
http://www.globalclimatescam.com/?page_id=560

as fot us...dont hold ya breath..you either play their neo[new] game[or get no credit]..cant buy nor sell..even that you produced by yourself..

if your not one of them...you need a 5 dollar permit to grow a single chicken

see govts sold us out...treaty law overrules civil/statuted/constituted de facto law...but we been de-educated/desensitised/disenfranchised...lied to

by the same media that will play their self/same..coluded/deceptions to the 3 rd world...you havnt complained about their huge increases of energy...at enron esq/prices...via restricting supply[cap]

your not going to complain when...big business speculators speculate the cost of carbon...to whatever the capped/limited/..reducing market will bear..signaling the rebirth of capitalist feudalism

johan, thanks for taking action on behalf of Minnesota Majority. Your emails are on the way to Capitol Hill.

An individual copy of your letter will be sent to each official:

November 1, 2009

Dear Representative Barton,
Dear Senator Cornyn,
Dear Senator Hutchison,

just so you cant say you wernt told...re copenhagen
its the final stage to create a world govt

and refinance the same powers that be/were..
by taxing the first world..into enforced serfdom...leaving us fully in fiatised debt[bankrupted govt...issuing carbon credits..to its 1000 best mates..they onsell to the securities traitors..to get their bonus/cut..then direct into the neo..[new]world carbon/bank

destroying our indistrial capacity...while rebuilding it in the current 3 rd world..allowing a well financed powers that were..to do it all over again...poluting/despoiling the third world...while the 1 st world...collapses..til we enjoin the 3 rd world...and the serevants of the beast..claim a conjoined 2de world..standard

our compulsory global tax...direct to the world bankers..will be spent..underr ursuous obligation...in the third world..selectivly giving the carbon credits..to the neo dictators..running their new industrialisation/consumer scam...etc...

sent another one via my facebook address
to california

realise who your serving julia...
hint
its not your people

only woman/children.. can fix this...
all males are suspect...in the boys club of rome/led by the teutonic zionist/bolchovics...

you either serve mammon...or god's creation

the party line is a two party lie..
serving the same moneyed elite