As a parent of a child who attends a Queensland State School, I agree with Hugh Wilson and the ASL that religious instruction has no place in public education. On the other hand, education about comparative religion could well be a way of providing kids with the information they need to form their own beliefs and to break down the barriers of bigotry that separate people in our society according to religious affiliation.

If parents want their kids to receive religious instruction, they should send them to religious schools, do it themselves, or send them to Sunday schools or whatever.

Further, the introduction of school chaplains was an insidious act that has encouraged proselytisation and indoctrination of vulnerable children who are required by law to attend school. They should be replaced by properly trained professional counsellors who would provide secular support to those kids who need it.

I went looking for where Pell said the secular experiment failed. It sounded like the usual inflammatory attention seeking crap he spouts, but it also fitted in rather too well with the articles aims so my suspicions were raised. I can't find anywhere on the net that agrees he said this. Can anybody give me a link?

My personal experience with these school chaplains has been largely positive. My children had a series of chaplains through school. The first few were actually rather good - supportive, helpful and there when the kids needed them. The last couple were real firebrands who seemed to delight in hurling threats of hell and damnation at kids from their pulpits.

One a weekend we were visited by Jehovah Witnesses. I am always polite to these people. I say I am not interested, then we usually have a pleasant chat and they move on. But this day we got one cast from the same mould as those chaplains. While she railled her accomplice stared at the ground avoiding all eye contact. After what seemed an age, she finally exhausted herself. Once she was safely out of earshot my son exploded.

His chief complaint seemed to be that each of these people had their own brand of god, and you couldn't believe in them all. But if you didn't profess to accept their version they abused you over it. He carried on for 5 or so minutes, and then announced he had had it - he was having nothing further to do with religion. I hadn't said a word to him.

It is rare one gets to see you child reach an inflection point, and then choose a future path in life. I think I have those chaplains to thank for my witnessing this one.

I say let the secular system completely crash. Take out the last remaining threads of Christian influence and parents will continue to move to private schools. Let the secular ferals encourage their kids to experiment and end up shipwrecked. If the author is to stubborn and blinded to see that secularism has failed their is little hope for him to reason.

rstuart: George Pell ‘TheFailure of the Family’, Quadrant, March 2002, pp. 16-22.

Runner: The is no "secular" system, just the whole wide rest of the world. *I* say the obsessively religiose should have the benefits of mainstream thought and social change withdrawn. *Let* the religious schools indoctrinate the littlies to the most dysfunctional of views. The bishops can always get their medical care and other professional services requiring education (rather than indoctrination) from places which tolerate the unfettered and godless, as the Saudis do. The religiose *can* send their kids off to be buggered by their betters, who should never be scrutinised by a world uncaring of their particular sensitivities. The flock *should* be bullied into parting with their tithe, to a pastor who never submits a tax return, preaches chastity and boffs the secretary....oh, hang on, they already often do.

When I can teach paleobiology and evolutionary genetics at church, as current best understanding, your johnny-come-lately religion might well qualify for inclusion as one among many in a comparative religion course. It could start with a ceremony recognising the longest-standing local religion, out of respect. The real question is not "how to interpret the whole world via my religion", it is "how much of my religion is required to be tossed out to not appear an idiot?"

Most of us *do* live with as enforcedly little religion as we can manage. We're not forced by "faith" to tolerate pastor feeling up the kids while expressing outrage that "secularists" are undermining the church by objecting. We can substitute ethics and even just plain old consideration of consequences to better effect. Let's *see* the Christian church get along without the unwilling support they siphon from us all. Don't forget to stop using the intellectual products of known athiest scientists while you're at it. Don't forget to tell your wife the legal rights she may no longer claim.

You can't make me "believe" but your church would *love* to regain the power to make me pretend, and pay, of course, for my own good, of course. (Bronx cheer)

Rustopher

Rusty writes

'Let* the religious schools indoctrinate the littlies to the most dysfunctional of views'

No doubt you have not noticed the obvious that by far the most dysfunctional families come from the secular zoos. Your own earth worshiping religion fails dismally and only adds to the dysfunction. The only difference between the perverted homosexual priests that molest children and the secular teachers is that one pays compensation while the other does not.

Your 'intellectually superior' pseudo science such as evolution is yet to achieve any real science breakthroughs. You are blinded by your own bias and dogmas. The ethics you refer to are no doubt very elastic and nonsensical.

Runner, mainstream "zoos" have to take all comers, hungry and naked if need be. I gladly pay taxes to that end. I demand their education involve the universal basics, including the fundamentals of biology. Money misdirected to religious schools could instead be used in the mainstream to teach what is needed. You can still indoctrinate at home and church. I see some fundie kids chuck away their cult once they escape the isolation imposed by their parents and insular little schools. I see others stunted by their indoctrination and totally unable to cope just move on to other anodynes.
You are mistaken about my religion, I don't have one. Perhaps Pastor lacks a dictionary?

At least you agree the priests are perverted.

The earth exists, and needs no worship or tithe. I need no proof for the existence of the universe, seeing how it actually does. Your imaginary friend enjoys no such actuality.

Perhaps religion could be taught in Health and PhysEd under mental diseases?
Sneaking it into schools as in the article is underhand and a disservice to all, a dodgy attempt at product placement in a priveleged environment.

Runner, I suspect you have nothing to say about biology, one of the most successful branches of human endeavour, except the lies you get from pastor. I suggest you stick to the nothing till you get an education about it. Three years study and a further year or two of biological field work and lab work would give you time to catch up with reality. Then you can discuss with people who use aspects of it to research and treat cancer, viruses, antibiotics, infection control, organ transplants, plant and animal breeding, paleobiology, geology, and more, about the everyday miracles produced by these fields and how to participate. There is no creation myth or revelation in your book that matches the stunning scale and elegance of what we now know. There is no miracle your pastor could demonstrate that isn't overwhelmed by the routine success of these fields in saving life, extending life and making this life a paradise for some.